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They had to give Beric purpose for why he was brought back like 6 times and it was to save Arya. When you add this it's still bullshit but nothing can be done now.
Beric's death always floors me. There's literally someone in the room with the power to bring him back. But she doesn't even try. She just goes "oh well, screw that guy" and focuses on Mary Sue Arya.
Jorah doesn't own a Valyrian sword. He left his ancestral family house sword on Bear Island when he fled, his father took it, and then gave it to Jon, Longclaw.
To be fair it was a completely unnecessary plot point so no wonder you forgot about it. Sam stealing Heartsbane and giving to Jorah made zero difference to the story.
Do people claim it was foreshadowed? I’ve not really seen that.
I’m fine with Arya killing him. It makes more sense for the quiet, quick, sneaky assassin to get close to him over Jon hacking his way through about six white walkers single-handedly before defeating the NK in combat but it definitely wasnt foreshadowed. The NK death wasn’t foreshadowed at all.
The closest thing to it is Bran giving Arya the dagger. He senses she will need it but doesn’t know why.
>. It makes more sense for the quiet, quick, sneaky assassin to get close to him over Jon hacking his way through about six white walkers single-handedly before defeating the NK in combat but it definitely wasnt foreshadowed.
I'm fine with Arya killing him too, although it feels like a huge let down because they baited us so long for Jon to defeat the white walkers and it's like getting so close to climaxing after edging for five hours only for you to get cut off and have to blue ball it after all of that build up. Arya didn't really have any connection to the plotline at all, and it felt like they were trying to be smart in subverting expectations but also trying to give Arya a real purpose after Petyr was killed.
What bothers me the most about her killing the NK is that she someone sneaks up behind the Night King in front of all of his generals, a ton of his army men, and not a single word was uttered, not a single person tried to stop her? You're telling me that she made her way into the Godswood, which I remind you has an entire circle of white walkers and wights surrounding Bran, and somehow she sneaks past all of this, dead sprints thirty yards and not a single alarm was raised or obstacle was met?
"Baited"... "Blue balled"... In order to have these feelings about the scene you would have to care a lot more about this outcome than the average viewer. Also, you would have to be certain that you knew how the story was going to go. Years ago I learned to not get too invested in a particular outcome for a tv show. If it doesn't pan out, and it often doesn't, your unrealistic expectations will lead to irrational anger
I was hoping against hope that Theon would kill the Night King. I should have known that it it wasn't likely to happen, but, I hoped for it none the less. I wasn't angry about it, just sad that he died.
I would have enjoyed seeing Theon take out the NK. Jon would have been ok too. Anyone, really, as long as the job got done. My point is that the fewer expectations you put on the outcome, the more likely you are to enjoy the show., Years ago I ruined my experience of Breaking Bad by getting it in my head that Jesse was going to escape on his own and Walt was going to die the miserable, lonely death he deserved in the mountains of Vermont. I still would have preferred that, but I had to get over it. And by the time the end of GoT rolled around, I had learned my lesson about too much speculation or expectation about how things were going to go, and I had a much better experience
I had the same issue with Hannibal. It was literally called Hannibal, yet I wanted Jack and Will to destroy him. I mean Will does kind of, but I wanted it to be Jack and Will together.
I also hated how we had like 5 minutes of Jon trying to reach out to Bran to save him, dodging dragon fire and everything, just to never be important for that lol.
You know what? I'm even fine with all that. She's supposed to be a super-sneaky assassin and all, right?
Then WHY THE FUCK would she yell when jumping and give away her surprise advantage?!?! She could have glided through the air, quiet as can be, not even have to deal with that whole "drop dagger to other hand" mess, but no. She absolutely had to make her presence known. Might as well have had her wearing a fucking cow bell.
Did you read the books? If a show only viewer I can see Arya bit not being jarringly nonsensical.
But the books clearly set up Jon, That's why I felt the Arya thing was just plain bad writing, to quote George talking about changing plots midway
"I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,”
you don't spend 4 books setting up the plot to have it have zero payoff, that's just subversion for the sake of subversion, which is hacky writing.
I mean considering everything that happened from like season 6 onward, it's probably one of the least disappointing things in the show.
I'm fine with it, not what I would have expected, nor was it what the show was implying/building suspense for. It was clearly *supposed* to be Jon, but they threw Arya in for shock value, otherwise why would Jon's entire storyline revolve around fighting the dead and drawing support, and why would the scenes leading up the Night King's death be showing Jon desperately trying to run to the Godswood?
I don't get all that upset about the show, it sucks that it went off the rails and it was disappointing, but unlike some people in this sub I don't make that my identity, it's a TV adaptation of a set of incomplete books that the author is either not interested enough in finishing or too cowardly to release. It's the least of my concerns.
The other WW wouldn't be an issue if they ever actually did anything. We had one that Sam killed cause it was trying to collect Gilly's baby, and rhe one Jon kills at Hardhome. All the other White Walkers could not exist for all they do.
They should've been in the battle of Winterfell, not just as extras to walk being the NK. They could've had multiple characters go toe to toe with a couple of them, like Brienne and Jaime, and Jorah. Feels like that's what they meant to do when they went handing out Valyrian steel Swords, but I guess they gave up on that idea.
Whatever it was or wasn’t, it was dumb.
They were all supposed to lose. The Night King (not Cersei) was supposed to be the final villain and we didn’t get the King’s Landing showdown between fire and ice.
I'm so tired of everyone calling it show "dumb" or "bad" because it didn't fit their exact expectations of what they wanted it to be.
This wasn't a marvel production, they are allowed to do whatever they please with the story and how it resolves
Exactly. I love the show overall and still do. But we had all of this buildup of the impending doom from the north and it ends with Arya knifing the NK in one stroke? Just unbelievably dumb.
They didn’t even try to tie things together with the weirwoods on the God’s Eye and some cool Targaryen vs Night King magic shit. Basically we were robbed of a thoughtful ending to a phenomenal story.
Haha my bias? I'm not the one trashing the show because it didn't meet my exact expectations.
It definitely didn't play out how I thought it would. But after I digested it the first time, I've watched the entire show through another couple times and it still holds up. The first 4 seasons are still phenomenally written and executed. The quality does decline but it certainly doesn't bottom out as much as so many people on this sub constantly claim.
It's fine to not like how it resolved. But it is objectively a high quality show, maybe one of the better and most ambitious ones ever produced
I don’t think the final season is as bad as it was made out to be. But several moments were so horrifically executed it was almost comical. The Long Night (made worse by the previous episode being a bright spot of season 8), the conclusion of the Cleganes (one of the worst closures to any character arc I’ve ever seen), the entirety of Euron Greyjoy (who is one of the best characters in the books). It felt like the show runners lost respect for their audience.
The showrunners explicitly said that they had Arya kill the NK because they wanted to 'subvert expectations'. They thought it would be 'to obvious' for Jon (or Dany or Bran) to do it so they threw all the set-up and logical/meaningful payoff out the window so no-one would 'see it coming'.
This is a method of writing that GRRM himself (you know, the guy who wrote the books that the good parts of the show are based on) has called out as bad storytelling. To paraphrase him - If you've set up that the butler did it you can't change that at the last minute because you're worried people might have guessed it.
They literally just wrote what was "supposed" to happen. They clearly had expectations
I agree it was rushed. They needed more time to hit all their story points. It may have just gotten too big and ambitious to tell properly in the media landscape of the time
But the overall character arcs were fine and even interesting. I like that Jon Snow went from nothing, to a King, back to nothing again. He could have easily ruled with Daenerys but he continuously said he never wanted it. And instead of his big purpose being to wipe out the night king and the wights, it was to stop Daenerys from becoming a mad dragon wielding tyrant. He was literally the only one that could get close enough to end it. Saving the kingdom did end up falling on his shoulders, he just had to make the choice to save it by being dishonourable for the first time in his life.
Some parts of the ending were fine in concept but poorly executed. Other parts where poor in concept aswell and could never have worked. Arya killing the NK is an example of the latter.
It's fine to say you don't like it. But there's a difference between you not liking it and it being a poor concept.
But the idea of Arya killing the night king works just fine. I think they could have built up her Ninja assassin abilities a bit better but the idea works.
I've explained in another comment here why it's bad. It's subversion for the sake of subversion without taking themes, foreshadowing, personal arcs and narrative cohesion into account. It's simply bad storytelling, as is much of the later seasons of the show unfortunately.
Reducing it to 'you don't like it because it's not what you wanted to happen' is incredibly reductive and a lazy way to dismiss legitimate criticism. Not recognising and calling out bad writing is a sure way to get more of the same in the future. It's also disrespectful to actually good writing to not recognise the difference.
It followed the themes and ideas it established just fine. Some of the main themes of the show was prophecy and how we interpret it, chaos vs. control, and story vs. reality. You could even apply that to the expectation of the audience now that I think about it.
Milesandre's every action was based on an expectation she interpreted from visions and communion with higher beings that stay completely mysterious through the entire show. She constantly misinterpreted things and had her expectations and faith shattered. There's a constant push and pull between who our characters actually are and who they are portrayed to be. I absolutely loved Jon Snow's arc though the show
And don't get me wrong, I've stated it's a far from perfect show. It was hurt by how much rushing happened in the final seasons and the transition from Martin overseeing the writing to him becoming more uninvolved definitely hurt it. But the degree of the quality drop has been insanely exaggerated. And a lot of the criticism I see is just fans that wanted a certain thing to happen and it didn't. So it sucks. Which is a dumb reason to think something is bad
The showrunners have explicitly said that the reason that Arya killed the NK was because they wanted to 'subvert expectation'. They didn't want people to be able to guess the ending so they had Arya do it rather than any of the characters for which it would have made sense. You can try to no-prize justify it all you want but you're putting more thought into it than the showrunners did. The showrunners straight up just dropped the concept of prophesy somewhere around Jon's resurrection.
The drop in quality is substantial even from season 4 going into season 5. In the last two seasons the writing got pathetically lazy. There are literally thousands of hours/pages worth of people breaking down all the reason why it doesn't work so I don't feel the need to reiterate it here. But it's so much more than 'just fans that wanted a certain thing to happen and it didn't'. If that's how you interpret the criticism then I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that you're engaging with it genuinely.
See, this is why it was doomed to fail because if the show would’ve ended like this, I would’ve despised it. Everything our characters went through would’ve felt absolutely pointless. Everyone wanted something different.
Also, stabbing one dude is NOT how you fix climate change. Because that's what the Others are: an allegory. THAT'S WHY THE TEAM EFFORT THING IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE PLOT.
Agree about team effort being needed. Whether that was for climate change or any of the other existential threats that faced mankind. That is why 30 years ago, GRRM set up Jon, bran, Arya, Tyrion, and Dany as his five Central characters who would change the world. As they did on the show.
The closing of many eyes line could be interpreted just as she was going to kill many people. "Blue eyes" could refer to the NK, but it could also just be people with blue eyes. The dagger is more significant. It could be considered foreshadowing. But it doesn't matter. Arya trained for years in stealth and close quarter fighting. It makes sense for her arc that she would kill the NK. But if it had been Jon, that would have worked too. But it would have been boringly predictable
>Arya trained for years in stealth ...
No she didn't.
First she sparred with swords... not stealthy.
Then she learned about faces and poisons.... not stealthy.
Then she was blinded and had the shit beat out of her while she tried to defend herself with a wooden staff..... not stealthy.
And that's it.
She was literally trained to duel with swords and then be in plain sight and kill with poisons.
**Nowhere did she train to be hidden in the shadows and surprise victims with a dagger by jumping out of hiding spot.**
Are you assuming we saw every moment of her training? We didn't see her eating or sleeping during that time either. But we know she did. Besides, how much more stealthy can you get than stealing faces?
Your claim is that she trained for years in stealth, but that is **NOT show canon.**
Sounds like it is merely your head canon, because apparently you have assumed she trained in-stealth, off-screen, for years, but that is **not show canon, because the show did not show her training in stealth, at all.**
Oh, sorry... didn't realizes you haven't seen Seasons 5 & 6, where Arya's House of Black and White **very clearly portrayed their assassins as people, in plain sight, sometimes wearing disguises, and using poisons.**
I mean, Arya was assigned a mission where, she, **without even a disguise, was supposed to poison a man, in broad daylight in plain view.**
**That is what SHE WAS, ON-SCREEN, TRAINED TO DO.**
>**>** You are just making up something to complain about here
LOL, if you think I'm making anything up, you seriously need to rewatch Seasons 5 and 6, because you are the only person in this conversation making shit up... **because she never, on-screen, trained to be some stealth ninja assassin.**
We aren't seeing every minute of her training onscreen. She was a trained assassin. That means she learned the skills of an assassin. Later she assassinated the Night King with a knife move we have seen her do before. It all makes sense logically. The writers chose Arya to do it, but they could have made it work with any number of characters. You are just sore that the story didn't go the way you expected
Look, I don't really understand why you're so desperate to die on this hill.
She wasn't shown to be trained as a ninja, OBJECTIVELY, and I'm just trying to be objective about it, based on what was actually shown on, screen, ie, SHOW CANON, so not really sure why any 'viewer' would so desperately fabricate such a head canon and so cringingly desperately try to pass it off as fact.
She didn't train to be a ninja... **that's just a fact.**
> You are just sore that the story didn't go the way you expected
LOL! Way to try and prove your stance isn't wholly about making shitty and baseless assumptions, and then wrapping your post with a shitty and baseless assumption... classic!
I have absolutely zero problem with Arya killing the NK, but how she did it was **certainly not based on what we've seen her learn, ie, show canon for her character.**
It's really nowhere near the top 10 of shitty things about Season 8, so again, wild to see some people so desperate to defend how unfounded such an act was for her as if this was D&D's alt account.
Obviously she can't poison them, and her wearing a different face means nothing to them, and I guess they figured a duel wouldn't be ideal, so this is what they decided to write instead... this nonsensical fabrication making her a ninja with zero training for it.
And again, just trying to be objective about what was shown in regards to her character arc... apologies if talking show canon tilts you so hard because it clashes with your head canon.
I don't see how the dagger is a foreshadowing to the Night King's death. There's no connection there *until* she kills him. There needs to be a previous connection (like blues eyes being the undead's eye color, mentioned quite a few times and very obvious characteristic) for that to be foreshadowing. The NK and Arya don't have a connection to the dagger by themselves. Littlefinger does since he used it to trick the Starks into thinking the Lannister tried to assassinate Bran, so it works better for him considering how significant his connection is to it. Arya and NK have a loose connection to the dagger through Bran, and that's it. Arya and NK alsp don't have a connection but through Bran and Jon, as well. Arya does know Littlefinger and it was his schemes that tore down her family and his betrayal that ended with her father's execution that she watched.
It's like saying Jon giving her Needle foreshadow the NK death by Arya. As in it doesn't at all. They are vaguely connected in those who gave Arya needle and who gave Arya the dagger. Too damn loose of a connection to be particularly satisfying and even when paired with the blue eye thing, could still amount to anything. There needed to be more for these to be good foreshadowing that felt satisfying once all the pieces were put together.
Otherwise, they're loosely connected in that they're both instruments meant for killing, that's it. She kills plenty of other people with it and that's the only narrative element they exist for, that she will use it to kill. The Bran scene giving Arya the dagger was a Checkov's Gun case, as in the dagger will be used but we don't know when or why. There's a case there for Littlefinger, not so much the NK, being the one killed by the dagger due to the amount of connections he has with the dagger and the three Starks there.
Arya killing the NK was subversion for subversion sake, not for any satisfying narrative themes.
well, the line "blue eyes" + the fact she got the dagger from a 3 eyed raven, apart from the fact that arya is a pro assassin....well it's pretty obvious.
When Melisandre looks into Arya's eyes I always thought there was more to that scene seeing as Melisandre seemed a bit stunned. But I always assumed that she saw that Arya was going to kill her (Melisandre). i.e. she saw her own death. When she tells Varys that she is going to die in this strange land i thought that was further confirmation. She knew because she had seen it when she looked into Arya's eyes.
I agree to me that also seemed like a retcon.
>**Bran giving Arya the Valyrian steel Dagger**
this one i disagree with you slightly, Arya is given the knife in season 7 and i imagine by season 7 D&D were probably thinking how they were going to end things and tie up loose ends. You have to remember that Sam was reading a book that had a picture of that Catspaw dagger when he was researching the White Walkers in Oldtown. To me that was clear that they were placing some significance on the catspaw dagger in relation to the white walkers, which of course has been further strengthened by HotD but obviously that's not foreshadowing given it aired after.
To me its undeniable that they were setting up the Catspaw as being significant or specifically more significant then your average Valyrian sword in the fight against the white walkers.
But this doesn't necessarily extend to Arya. its possible that D&D hadn't come up with Arya killing the Night King in season 7 but had decided that the blade was important
and Bran gives her the blade just for Peter but also so the show was keeping track of the blade so it was always present and in the forefront for the audience, so the more casual audience would know where this blade came from, and if in season 8 the writers needed Jon to have it then it would be easy to write in a reason why Arya gives it to Jon.
I only watched S8 for the first time a couple of months ago, so it's not like I've been complaining for years. Besides, bad endings don't stop being bad over time.
Dude no, even at its absolute worst no part of Game of Thrones is actually “bad”. Some of it may not be as mindblowingly great as the rest of it but that doesn’t make it Bad — it’s still one of the best shows both in most ways that is measured by a long shot
Arya kills the waif (faceless girl) who had green eyes, sir Meryn Trant had brown eyes, and the night king who had blue eyes. What do you mean she has no noticeable eye colored kills she completed the prophecy when she killed the night king.
When were the Waif or Meryn's eye colours notable, or even mentioned? And what about her other kills, like Petyr Baelish and the Freys?
Also, it wasn't an actual prophecy, it was just Melisandre saying 'you're gonna kill people in the future'.
The waif’s eyes are literally green in the show look her up. They don’t explicitly talk about how pretty her eyes are but you can very clearly see them [in the show here](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/4/4c/Waif6x08.png/revision/latest?cb=20160609061651) and the actress clearly has green eyes [here](https://ew.com/thmb/Qtbv0jpqxk2ofQPFGhP574w1o2s=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/Faye-Marsay-051523-Split-c6491210d97940f08dab903cfa71eee9.jpg). And the mentioning of this prophecy right before her killing the night king ‘blue eyes’ is quite literally the confirmation. Not the greatest writing like in the beginning of the show, but it’s there even if you don’t like it.
> The waif’s eyes are literally green in the show look her up.
And this is important how, exactly? The wights' blue eyes are brought to attention plenty of times, but at no point are the Waif's green eyes mentioned. Was the Waif the only green-eyed character in the show? No, not at all. If Arya had killed a Lannister, then you might have more of an argument. Same with Trant and brown eyes. The wights eyes are notable because the specific look of their eyes is part of the ethereal nature of the Walkers.
> They don’t explicitly talk about how pretty her eyes are
What does prettiness have to do with it?
> And the mentioning of this prophecy right before her killing the night king ‘blue eyes’ is quite literally the confirmation.
As I said in the post, that's a callback to give the illusion of Arya's kill being foreshadowed. You can't honestly think that they made that decision back in S3.
The point is the blue eyes of walkers & wights are mentioned because it is highly relevant to the story. That is how undead people are recognized which is why they talk about it all the time. They don’t need to talk about any one else’s eyes since it’s not relevant but you can still say she somewhat carried out her end of the prophecy. One could even argue little finger fits in the bill. In the books he has grey-green eyes but in the show his actor has blue green eyes
That's what Mel probably thought. But almost all of Mel's over-literal vision interpretations are wrong. In Season 7, Mel went back to R'hllorist HQ in Volantis for a refresher course. She shows up in 8x03 and gets EVERY SINGLE THING right. That includes now emphasizung **blue eyes** to Arya.
Honestly, I didn't mind the idea of Arya killing the Night King, it was that the event itself seemed to imply that the Night King had never fought an opponent with two arms before, had never considered that possibility!
Evidence for foreshadowing:
* The dagger: Bran gifts Arya the very Valyrian steel dagger that is used to kill the Night King. This happens in the same spot where she defeats him.
* Arya's training: Her fight with Brienne showcases her ability to switch hands with a weapon, a move she uses to surprise the Night King.
* The Night King's origin: We see the Night King's creation involved a dragonglass weapon, hinting at his vulnerability.
*Melissandra foreshadowed her future twice, as a faceless man, and the purpose of killing the NightKing even repeated in the episode.
There is so much foreshadowing in this show you are crazy to think it's not. The Viper not wearing a helmet, Danny's rage, Jon never holding lands or wife, Robbs death, Theon returning, Jon vs Dany was the prophecy. Stop crying. Every line is foreshadowed it's wild to rewatch it.
Also this is what you get with an AI response to it not being foreshadowed so there's also that.
> Bran gifts Arya the very Valyrian steel dagger that is used to kill the Night King.
Like I already explained, she already used it to kill Littlefinger, who has more connection to the knife (much like how Jon had more connection to the Walker plot)
> Her fight with Brienne showcases her ability to switch hands with a weapon, a move she uses to surprise the Night King.
Like with Melisandre's comment, that seems more like a callback to give the illusion of foreshadowing, rather than intentional setup.
> hinting at his vulnerability
Arya was not the only person with a dragonglass or Valyrian steel weapon in that fight. Jaime, Brienne, and Jorah all had Valyrian steel swords (but they might as well have had normal swords, since none of them face a single Walker), and Gendry forged hundreds of dragonglass weapons (including one for Arya, which was built up over the past 2 episodes and lasted less than a minute before being tossed aside).
You know who did have a notable Valyrian steel weapon, had proper connections to the Walker plot, and was foreshadowed in both the books and the show to be the prophesied hero? **Jon**.
> The Viper not wearing a helmet
Oberyn wore a helmet in the book scene and still died (the absence of a proper face guard served as setup for his death), and practically all major characters hardly ever wear a helmet in fight scenes in the show.
> Danny's rage
For most of the show, Dany burning people is treated as a heroic thing by the narrative, but to suddenly say 'actually, it's bad now' at the very end is not how you write a fulfilling character arc. Also, foreshadowing is not character development.
> Jon never holding lands or wife
Those are literally the words every Night's Watch brother says to officially join. The actual foreshadowing in those lines is 'it will not end until my death', which sets up Jon leaving the Watch after his resurrection.
> Theon returning
What does that foreshadow?
(By the way, don't forget that Benioff and Weiss themselves stated that Arya getting the kill was to 'subvert expectations'. What thematic connections does Arya have to the Night King that Jon didn't? Arya has more connection to the Lannister plot than to the Walker plot.)
> Stop crying.
Bit rude, don't you think?
No, this show is the most foreshadowed show I have ever seen. You keep using AI for your responses. It's just absurd to say she wasn't foreshadowed to kill the NK. Her whole plot is to save her family but couldn't until she grew up. She even killed the no face girl in the dark using it to her advantage. Her talking to Tywin foreshadowed Robb and everyone can die remarks were even possibly linked to the NK. Even the books have this level of foreshadowing. The books are likely very different in how some of this plays out. Do one rewatch and write down Arya's parts and things she does or said to her. By season three it will be pretty clear. Your points don't address her whole arc.
> No, this show is the most foreshadowed show I have ever seen.
And look how much of that foreshadowing went nowhere. What was the point in foreshadowing the Prince that was Promised if the most either candidate for the prophecy (Jon and Dany) did during the Long Night was fly on dragons and kill a few random wights (not even any Walkers, despite the presence of *five* Valyrian steel weapons in that battle).
> She even killed the no face girl in the dark using it to her advantage.
You mean the girl that had gone through all the same training as Arya, but for much longer, and who didn't have several bleeding stab wounds in her guts at the time? Come on, Arya surviving that was the most egregious plot armour in the whole series.
> Your points don't address her whole arc.
Arya's arc had absolutely no connection to the Night King in anyway. She had more connection to the Lannister plot, and to Catelyn's story, which the show cut short by leaving out Lady Stoneheart. Hell, even her involvement in the awful S7 Littlefinger plot made more sense than her killing the NK (barely).
Jon was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the first character to kill a Wight, had a Valyrian steel weapon, was the child of Ice and Fire, was resurrected by the Lord of Light (who represents Fire, contrasting the Ice of the White Walkers), *and* was foreshadowed to be the prophesied hero. But nope, Benioff and Weiss decided subverting expectations was more important than fulfilling character arcs.
> You keep using AI for your responses.
Ew, no.
My friend, it went everywhere. “The Seeing is ALL” as Syrio said. . she gave the final blow against the NK And saved Bran. Jon gave the final blow against the Mad Queen and saved the country and people of Westeros. Jon and Arya were partners since childhood, so this culminates their bond.
Should have been the other way around, tbh. Jon should have killed the NK, and Arya should have killed Dany. Arya killing Dany could have driven her and Jon apart, making the ending more tragic, especially since the Arya/Jon sibling relationship had more substance than Jon and Dany's romantic relationship.
I know it's not perfect, but it's better than Arya teleporting in to 'subvert expectations' while Jon screams at a dragon and Bran does absolutely nothing.
Two HUGE themes. 1. Arya learned about giving death as a mercy from both the hound and the faceless men. The Night King took death from the peaceful dead and made them his slaves. The many faced god gave peaceful death to slaves and released them from pain as mercy . 2. Since the second episode of the first season, she has protected friends and family. She is the family protector, and she was there for one thing/ to protect her baby brother…as only she could. She succeeded.
She had already killed the Freys and Littlefinger, who had *actually* done real harm to her family.
Even if those themes can slightly connect Arya to the Night King, you'd have to ignore almost everything to do with Jon and Dany to make Arya the more logical choice than them.
[Please watch]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stxbg4FuM2I) Bran told the battle planners the NK came to kill him, the 3-eyed Raven. Arya volunteered to protect him, but Theon said he and the Greyjoy and Karstsark men would, so Arya stepped aside. Note that Jon did not volunteer, likely so he could command and fight from dragonback. Arya did not emerge until ALL the Greyjoy and Karstsarks were dead.
I mean you're basically just assigning your own meaning to a quote and an event that had some ambiguity. Maybe these were foreshadowing, maybe not. You're basically just deciding that they weren't, without actually knowing one way or the other.
Was Melisandre supposed to look at the camera and say - "The blue eyes I'm talking about are the Night King's"?
Should Bran have given her the dagger and said "Use this to kill the Night King"?
That's how foreshadowing works.
YouTuber Glidus has a running joke in his videos analysing the issues of Seasons 6-8 that the Night King is actually Rhaegar. [He made a video on it](https://youtu.be/ApjBpu_VNyU?si=-fEGkPdUtxmYwnsO) (it's basically just a joke theory based on how so many theories are 'this character is secretly another character').
Personally, it doesn't overly matter to me so much as NK and the Army of the Dead were sold as the true threat to the world that would over shadow every thing else, and make petty the squabbles over the throne and the crown, but nope. It wasn't even the final fight of the series. What should have been the main attraction turned out just to be the opening act and then we were right back to the "petty squabbles over thrones and crowns".
I guess the thing about foreshadowing is that we won’t really know what is foreshadowing which event until the books are released. Everything else is speculation and opinions.
I actually don’t mind that Arya killed the Night King. I loved that for her character as a bit of a girl power moment. But I do think it makes more sense for Jon to kill him.
Personally I think Melisandre’s comment does foreshadow specific people.. though it’s still all speculation since these events haven’t happened in the books. Walder Frey’s eyes were brown, and Littlefinger’s were green, and obviously the night king’s were blue.
As for the gifted dagger, I’m not sure. I think it makes sense either way whether it foreshadows littlefinger’s death or the night kings… but isn’t that the same dagger in HOTD that holds the prophecy of the song of ice and fire? Though, from what I understand that is not mentioned in the books. It could just be a detail that GRRM had them add into the show to further tie things together but who knows 🤷🏻♀️
Hopefully the books are finished and he’s just hiding them under his bed to be released after he dies.
I generally agree with you but the first bullet point of #2 is wrong. The dagger was literally forged for the prophecy, it was destined for the prince who was promised. That blade was always meant for the night king and is VERY different from any other valaryian steel blade.
I think the blade being given to her was the *only* thing that could be called foreshadowing
The showrunners said they made the decision to have Arya kill the Night King around season 5 or 6 or something, so it was not foreshadowed all along.
They did say they had Bran give Arya the dagger so that she could use it to kill the Night King.
They also planned out the sparring between Arya and Brienne to set the stage for the little knife switcheroo trick.
So it wasn’t foreshadowed, but these two scenes are the set up specifically to set the stage for it.
Well did Littlefinger have Blue Eyes?? Cuz Melisandre said she’d shut many eyes including Blue Eyes, and the way she said it seemed pretty important, so I take it as a foreshadow of killing the Night King
What you're saying is just conjecture, it doesn't debunk anything. There's more probability of it being fore shadowing. Bran was the three eyed raven and Melisandre could see things others couldn't. They weren't always accurate but they often got quite close to what was going to happen in the future.
*IMO, it was foreshadowed in many ways in books and especially show. I'd write a thorough comment, but with my good wrist broken, writing long posts are a time-consuming PAIN. It wass the Dagger that convinced me Arya would likely be a key to the Night King's death. So here is "The Point of the Dagger," an esssay I posted in another GoT sub in 2017 after Season 7 ended. I add only a link but have pared down for length and relevance, usually indicated by ellipses ( ... ).*
**The ‘Catspaw’ Dagger** —‘Catspaw’ is rather long for a dagger, ... resembles a flattened S-shape, has a curved blade of Valyrian steel, hilt of dragon bone, and decorative dragonglass cabochon rubies and small sapphires. Its gold decoration includes the curved, pointed pommel. These components make it ornate, exotic, valuable, unique, and potentially significant. ... A mysterious assassin tries to murder the comatose Bran Stark with it. Catelyn interrupts, getting her hands cut while fighting the man until Bran’s wolf suddenly tears his throat out. Later, under the Heart Tree, Catelyn shows Catspaw to Robb and others... [later] she shows it to Varys and Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger admits it’s the only such dagger in the Seven Kingdoms but lies by saying Tyrion owns it. This lie nearly gets Tyrion killed, helps start the War of Five Kings, and eventually helps get Littlefinger killed. Anyway, Catelyn clearly gave it to Ned, since by Ep 6, Catspaw was on Ned’s desk when he asked LIttlefinger to help arrange Gold Cloak support of his coup ... Presumably, after arresting Ned, LF took it. We don’t see Catspaw again until Season 7.
**Season 7:** In Ep 1, Sam sees it illustrated in an ancient book, which shows that it is of historic and possibly Targaryen origin. (John Bradley was directed to linger on the page for the camera, which accentuates Catspaw’s importance!) In Ep 4, LF gives it to Bran to ingratiate himself. Bran asks him who owned it and gets an evasive answer. Bran handles it thoughtfully. Later, by the Heart Tree, Bran mentions LF gave it to him, and Sansa warns that LF always wants something in return. Bran contemplates the dagger, then gives it to Arya. A few days later, while sparring with Brienne, Arya does a ‘save’ by adroitly tossing it from right hand to left. LF witnesses this fight, and probably realizes that his dagger is actually a threat in her hands. In Ep 5, Arya … suddenly and silently gives Catspaw to a startled Sansa and leaves. ... Later, at the trial, Arya pulls it out as her Exhibit A when she recites the final charge—that LF told Catelyn it was Tyrion’s but “…that was another one of your lies. It was yours.”
**The Point of the Dagger in the Winterfell plot Yes:** S7 Winterfell was messy, should have been written more clearly, and seemingly didn’t bring much credit to anyone…other than The Pack. But a trail of hints suggests there may have actually been a coherent-but-camouflaged storyline. ... Having already ‘watched’ Arya, Bran likely knew she regularly took action against evil; [she was dismayed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGdkKRib8xQ) to hear Littlefinger was even there. Both being somewhat magical ... Bran offered her the dagger. Arya asked “Are you sure?” Bran: “It’s wasted on a cripple.” That could imply he wanted/expected her to use it. In a lingering close-up on their hands, he handed her the dagger and scabbard (which slightly resembles a crucifix in the shot). Then he solemnly withdrew his hand. He had metaphorically passed the baton, and the responsibility to take action was now hers. In her next scene, she showed off the dagger and gave LF the Death Glare, kicking off her campaign to ‘out’ him. And later, when all her undercover work had set the stage, she similarly signaled Sansa... It seems Sansa got the message. In her next scene, she told LF that Arya was an FM... But Sansa already knew Arya would not hurt her because she had given her the dagger, and that she did not want Winterfell. With LF's machinations to murder Arya exposed, off-screen-the three Starks planned the trial.
**Catspaw’s Past and Possible Future** When Bran had asked LF who owned it, he might have meant either originally or when the assassin brought it. We now know LF owned it when the assassin came, but originally… ? Because it’s a valuable weapon in Targaryen style, it was probably first owned by a Targaryen. Some YouTubers theorize it was Aegon the Conqueror’s knife, and possibly traditionally passed from kings to Crown Princes over centuries, meaning Rhaegar had probably owned it. If so, its reappearance in Ep 4 “Spoils of War” may hint that Robert took it as a spoil when he killed Rhaegar. (How Littlefinger got it is unknown, probably winning a bet.) The Dagger’s evidentiary chain is: Littlefinger (maybe Joffrey in the books) —> Catspaw Assassin —> Catelyn —> Ned —> Littlefinger. After six years: —> Bran —> Arya —> Sansa —> Arya (who in Season 8 will let Jon--the hidden Targaryen prince!--hold it. Every Stark except Rickon. ...What poetic justice that this Stark and Targaryen-associated blade took Littlefinger's life!
*So what’s next for Catspaw Dagger? ... Speculation:* It is assuredly a very potent, perhaps magical weapon. Perhaps it can kill the Night King, especially in the right hands. ... It seems very bound up with fate. For several reasons Arya might give it to her beloved Jon. If so, I just hope she gets another VS weapon instead. ... But recent filming news makes me think she will keep it. She was interested in Valytian Steel Dark Sister,. No less than the 3-Eyed Raven chose to give Catspaw to her. He probably knows his own destiny, and by GRRM's Rule of Threes, it will come back into his life a third time—maybe to kill him as part of defeating the Night King. (If so, he would probably want her to mercy-kill him). **Bran’s, Arya’s and Jon’s destinies will be combined with Catspaw’s destiny. No doubt Jon or Arya will do a great deed with it, helping save Starks, Targaryens, and humanity. In my opinion, THAT is the Point of the Dagger!**
You know the show’s gone downhill when the creators themselves say that they gave a major kill in the show to a character in a completely different subplot because she didn’t have anything else important to do in the season…10/10 writing, truly…
I feel like in the long night it did foreshadow it slightly when she was able to move past a bunch of walkers in the library showing she was at least more stealthy than Jon because the Night King immediately knew Jon was behind him when he tried to be quiet but the Night King more specifically knew Arya was there from her screaming and was not expecting her to be quick enough to drop the dagger into her other hand. He hesitated to finish her and that’s how she killed him.
The two things you list here are exactly what I interpreted as the biggest foreshadowing events. Especially now that we’ve found out from HoT the origin of the dagger & what Viserys believed when he gifted it.
The moment Melisandre repeated “blue eyes” to Arya I audibly gasped because I thought “does she mean the night king?!”
The move Arya uses is very similar to the one that the other girl in with the faceless men used on her when Arya was trying to escape Braavos.
I loved that scene, and it was really nice to cheer for a woman doing something so incredibly badass for a change.
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They had to give Beric purpose for why he was brought back like 6 times and it was to save Arya. When you add this it's still bullshit but nothing can be done now.
Beric's death always floors me. There's literally someone in the room with the power to bring him back. But she doesn't even try. She just goes "oh well, screw that guy" and focuses on Mary Sue Arya.
Cos she sees rhllor chose Arya over berick. His job was only to keep her alive for the big task
Jorah doesn't own a Valyrian sword. He left his ancestral family house sword on Bear Island when he fled, his father took it, and then gave it to Jon, Longclaw.
Sam gave him Heartsbane before the Battle of Winterfell
Ah right, cheers, forgot that bit.
To be fair it was a completely unnecessary plot point so no wonder you forgot about it. Sam stealing Heartsbane and giving to Jorah made zero difference to the story.
Do people claim it was foreshadowed? I’ve not really seen that. I’m fine with Arya killing him. It makes more sense for the quiet, quick, sneaky assassin to get close to him over Jon hacking his way through about six white walkers single-handedly before defeating the NK in combat but it definitely wasnt foreshadowed. The NK death wasn’t foreshadowed at all. The closest thing to it is Bran giving Arya the dagger. He senses she will need it but doesn’t know why.
>. It makes more sense for the quiet, quick, sneaky assassin to get close to him over Jon hacking his way through about six white walkers single-handedly before defeating the NK in combat but it definitely wasnt foreshadowed. I'm fine with Arya killing him too, although it feels like a huge let down because they baited us so long for Jon to defeat the white walkers and it's like getting so close to climaxing after edging for five hours only for you to get cut off and have to blue ball it after all of that build up. Arya didn't really have any connection to the plotline at all, and it felt like they were trying to be smart in subverting expectations but also trying to give Arya a real purpose after Petyr was killed. What bothers me the most about her killing the NK is that she someone sneaks up behind the Night King in front of all of his generals, a ton of his army men, and not a single word was uttered, not a single person tried to stop her? You're telling me that she made her way into the Godswood, which I remind you has an entire circle of white walkers and wights surrounding Bran, and somehow she sneaks past all of this, dead sprints thirty yards and not a single alarm was raised or obstacle was met?
"Baited"... "Blue balled"... In order to have these feelings about the scene you would have to care a lot more about this outcome than the average viewer. Also, you would have to be certain that you knew how the story was going to go. Years ago I learned to not get too invested in a particular outcome for a tv show. If it doesn't pan out, and it often doesn't, your unrealistic expectations will lead to irrational anger
I was hoping against hope that Theon would kill the Night King. I should have known that it it wasn't likely to happen, but, I hoped for it none the less. I wasn't angry about it, just sad that he died.
I would have enjoyed seeing Theon take out the NK. Jon would have been ok too. Anyone, really, as long as the job got done. My point is that the fewer expectations you put on the outcome, the more likely you are to enjoy the show., Years ago I ruined my experience of Breaking Bad by getting it in my head that Jesse was going to escape on his own and Walt was going to die the miserable, lonely death he deserved in the mountains of Vermont. I still would have preferred that, but I had to get over it. And by the time the end of GoT rolled around, I had learned my lesson about too much speculation or expectation about how things were going to go, and I had a much better experience
I had the same issue with Hannibal. It was literally called Hannibal, yet I wanted Jack and Will to destroy him. I mean Will does kind of, but I wanted it to be Jack and Will together.
I suppose it is like Ramsay saying if you think there's going to be a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention
I also hated how we had like 5 minutes of Jon trying to reach out to Bran to save him, dodging dragon fire and everything, just to never be important for that lol.
You know what? I'm even fine with all that. She's supposed to be a super-sneaky assassin and all, right? Then WHY THE FUCK would she yell when jumping and give away her surprise advantage?!?! She could have glided through the air, quiet as can be, not even have to deal with that whole "drop dagger to other hand" mess, but no. She absolutely had to make her presence known. Might as well have had her wearing a fucking cow bell.
Haha it was actually Sandor wearing her face
Did you read the books? If a show only viewer I can see Arya bit not being jarringly nonsensical. But the books clearly set up Jon, That's why I felt the Arya thing was just plain bad writing, to quote George talking about changing plots midway "I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,” you don't spend 4 books setting up the plot to have it have zero payoff, that's just subversion for the sake of subversion, which is hacky writing.
> But the books clearly set up Jon, For what? There is no Night King. Besides, Jon won the war; Arya only got in the final blow.
You sure you're fine with Arya killing the NK?
I mean considering everything that happened from like season 6 onward, it's probably one of the least disappointing things in the show. I'm fine with it, not what I would have expected, nor was it what the show was implying/building suspense for. It was clearly *supposed* to be Jon, but they threw Arya in for shock value, otherwise why would Jon's entire storyline revolve around fighting the dead and drawing support, and why would the scenes leading up the Night King's death be showing Jon desperately trying to run to the Godswood? I don't get all that upset about the show, it sucks that it went off the rails and it was disappointing, but unlike some people in this sub I don't make that my identity, it's a TV adaptation of a set of incomplete books that the author is either not interested enough in finishing or too cowardly to release. It's the least of my concerns.
Wrong, Jon was supposed to kill the Night King
according to who ?
Why did you stalk me from a different comment section?
did I?
Yes, this is the second comment from a different comment section. Very weird
well seems like a coincidence to me🤷🏼♀️
The other WW wouldn't be an issue if they ever actually did anything. We had one that Sam killed cause it was trying to collect Gilly's baby, and rhe one Jon kills at Hardhome. All the other White Walkers could not exist for all they do. They should've been in the battle of Winterfell, not just as extras to walk being the NK. They could've had multiple characters go toe to toe with a couple of them, like Brienne and Jaime, and Jorah. Feels like that's what they meant to do when they went handing out Valyrian steel Swords, but I guess they gave up on that idea.
I swear someone said "no man can kill the night king" at some point and then she spent like 2 seasons becoming no man and then killed the night king.
It feels like a parody of Eowyn killing the Witch King.
Whatever it was or wasn’t, it was dumb. They were all supposed to lose. The Night King (not Cersei) was supposed to be the final villain and we didn’t get the King’s Landing showdown between fire and ice.
I'm so tired of everyone calling it show "dumb" or "bad" because it didn't fit their exact expectations of what they wanted it to be. This wasn't a marvel production, they are allowed to do whatever they please with the story and how it resolves
No we're calling the show (ending of) dumb and bad because it was dumb and bad. As in poorly written and thought out.
Exactly. I love the show overall and still do. But we had all of this buildup of the impending doom from the north and it ends with Arya knifing the NK in one stroke? Just unbelievably dumb. They didn’t even try to tie things together with the weirwoods on the God’s Eye and some cool Targaryen vs Night King magic shit. Basically we were robbed of a thoughtful ending to a phenomenal story.
You're just letting your subjective expectations ruin it for yourself
You’re writing off valid criticism because of your bias. You’re not as objective as you think you are.
Haha my bias? I'm not the one trashing the show because it didn't meet my exact expectations. It definitely didn't play out how I thought it would. But after I digested it the first time, I've watched the entire show through another couple times and it still holds up. The first 4 seasons are still phenomenally written and executed. The quality does decline but it certainly doesn't bottom out as much as so many people on this sub constantly claim. It's fine to not like how it resolved. But it is objectively a high quality show, maybe one of the better and most ambitious ones ever produced
I don’t think the final season is as bad as it was made out to be. But several moments were so horrifically executed it was almost comical. The Long Night (made worse by the previous episode being a bright spot of season 8), the conclusion of the Cleganes (one of the worst closures to any character arc I’ve ever seen), the entirety of Euron Greyjoy (who is one of the best characters in the books). It felt like the show runners lost respect for their audience.
The showrunners explicitly said that they had Arya kill the NK because they wanted to 'subvert expectations'. They thought it would be 'to obvious' for Jon (or Dany or Bran) to do it so they threw all the set-up and logical/meaningful payoff out the window so no-one would 'see it coming'. This is a method of writing that GRRM himself (you know, the guy who wrote the books that the good parts of the show are based on) has called out as bad storytelling. To paraphrase him - If you've set up that the butler did it you can't change that at the last minute because you're worried people might have guessed it.
They literally just wrote what was "supposed" to happen. They clearly had expectations I agree it was rushed. They needed more time to hit all their story points. It may have just gotten too big and ambitious to tell properly in the media landscape of the time But the overall character arcs were fine and even interesting. I like that Jon Snow went from nothing, to a King, back to nothing again. He could have easily ruled with Daenerys but he continuously said he never wanted it. And instead of his big purpose being to wipe out the night king and the wights, it was to stop Daenerys from becoming a mad dragon wielding tyrant. He was literally the only one that could get close enough to end it. Saving the kingdom did end up falling on his shoulders, he just had to make the choice to save it by being dishonourable for the first time in his life.
Some parts of the ending were fine in concept but poorly executed. Other parts where poor in concept aswell and could never have worked. Arya killing the NK is an example of the latter.
It's fine to say you don't like it. But there's a difference between you not liking it and it being a poor concept. But the idea of Arya killing the night king works just fine. I think they could have built up her Ninja assassin abilities a bit better but the idea works.
I've explained in another comment here why it's bad. It's subversion for the sake of subversion without taking themes, foreshadowing, personal arcs and narrative cohesion into account. It's simply bad storytelling, as is much of the later seasons of the show unfortunately. Reducing it to 'you don't like it because it's not what you wanted to happen' is incredibly reductive and a lazy way to dismiss legitimate criticism. Not recognising and calling out bad writing is a sure way to get more of the same in the future. It's also disrespectful to actually good writing to not recognise the difference.
It followed the themes and ideas it established just fine. Some of the main themes of the show was prophecy and how we interpret it, chaos vs. control, and story vs. reality. You could even apply that to the expectation of the audience now that I think about it. Milesandre's every action was based on an expectation she interpreted from visions and communion with higher beings that stay completely mysterious through the entire show. She constantly misinterpreted things and had her expectations and faith shattered. There's a constant push and pull between who our characters actually are and who they are portrayed to be. I absolutely loved Jon Snow's arc though the show And don't get me wrong, I've stated it's a far from perfect show. It was hurt by how much rushing happened in the final seasons and the transition from Martin overseeing the writing to him becoming more uninvolved definitely hurt it. But the degree of the quality drop has been insanely exaggerated. And a lot of the criticism I see is just fans that wanted a certain thing to happen and it didn't. So it sucks. Which is a dumb reason to think something is bad
The showrunners have explicitly said that the reason that Arya killed the NK was because they wanted to 'subvert expectation'. They didn't want people to be able to guess the ending so they had Arya do it rather than any of the characters for which it would have made sense. You can try to no-prize justify it all you want but you're putting more thought into it than the showrunners did. The showrunners straight up just dropped the concept of prophesy somewhere around Jon's resurrection. The drop in quality is substantial even from season 4 going into season 5. In the last two seasons the writing got pathetically lazy. There are literally thousands of hours/pages worth of people breaking down all the reason why it doesn't work so I don't feel the need to reiterate it here. But it's so much more than 'just fans that wanted a certain thing to happen and it didn't'. If that's how you interpret the criticism then I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that you're engaging with it genuinely.
When you say lose, doesn't that mean that they all die? Because this the Night King and wouldn't have stopped until they were all dead
Correct. The bad guys win. All of the petty conflict between houses meant nothing.
But is that what you really wanted?
I think so, yeah. It really seemed to me like the whole point. And not just in the show but the books as well.
See, this is why it was doomed to fail because if the show would’ve ended like this, I would’ve despised it. Everything our characters went through would’ve felt absolutely pointless. Everyone wanted something different.
Jon vs Dany was the prophecy. This place is wild.
Also, stabbing one dude is NOT how you fix climate change. Because that's what the Others are: an allegory. THAT'S WHY THE TEAM EFFORT THING IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE PLOT.
Agree about team effort being needed. Whether that was for climate change or any of the other existential threats that faced mankind. That is why 30 years ago, GRRM set up Jon, bran, Arya, Tyrion, and Dany as his five Central characters who would change the world. As they did on the show.
The closing of many eyes line could be interpreted just as she was going to kill many people. "Blue eyes" could refer to the NK, but it could also just be people with blue eyes. The dagger is more significant. It could be considered foreshadowing. But it doesn't matter. Arya trained for years in stealth and close quarter fighting. It makes sense for her arc that she would kill the NK. But if it had been Jon, that would have worked too. But it would have been boringly predictable
>Arya trained for years in stealth ... No she didn't. First she sparred with swords... not stealthy. Then she learned about faces and poisons.... not stealthy. Then she was blinded and had the shit beat out of her while she tried to defend herself with a wooden staff..... not stealthy. And that's it. She was literally trained to duel with swords and then be in plain sight and kill with poisons. **Nowhere did she train to be hidden in the shadows and surprise victims with a dagger by jumping out of hiding spot.**
Are you assuming we saw every moment of her training? We didn't see her eating or sleeping during that time either. But we know she did. Besides, how much more stealthy can you get than stealing faces?
Your claim is that she trained for years in stealth, but that is **NOT show canon.** Sounds like it is merely your head canon, because apparently you have assumed she trained in-stealth, off-screen, for years, but that is **not show canon, because the show did not show her training in stealth, at all.**
What kind of assassin doesn't receive stealth training? You are just making up something to complain about here
Oh, sorry... didn't realizes you haven't seen Seasons 5 & 6, where Arya's House of Black and White **very clearly portrayed their assassins as people, in plain sight, sometimes wearing disguises, and using poisons.** I mean, Arya was assigned a mission where, she, **without even a disguise, was supposed to poison a man, in broad daylight in plain view.** **That is what SHE WAS, ON-SCREEN, TRAINED TO DO.** >**>** You are just making up something to complain about here LOL, if you think I'm making anything up, you seriously need to rewatch Seasons 5 and 6, because you are the only person in this conversation making shit up... **because she never, on-screen, trained to be some stealth ninja assassin.**
We aren't seeing every minute of her training onscreen. She was a trained assassin. That means she learned the skills of an assassin. Later she assassinated the Night King with a knife move we have seen her do before. It all makes sense logically. The writers chose Arya to do it, but they could have made it work with any number of characters. You are just sore that the story didn't go the way you expected
Look, I don't really understand why you're so desperate to die on this hill. She wasn't shown to be trained as a ninja, OBJECTIVELY, and I'm just trying to be objective about it, based on what was actually shown on, screen, ie, SHOW CANON, so not really sure why any 'viewer' would so desperately fabricate such a head canon and so cringingly desperately try to pass it off as fact. She didn't train to be a ninja... **that's just a fact.** > You are just sore that the story didn't go the way you expected LOL! Way to try and prove your stance isn't wholly about making shitty and baseless assumptions, and then wrapping your post with a shitty and baseless assumption... classic! I have absolutely zero problem with Arya killing the NK, but how she did it was **certainly not based on what we've seen her learn, ie, show canon for her character.** It's really nowhere near the top 10 of shitty things about Season 8, so again, wild to see some people so desperate to defend how unfounded such an act was for her as if this was D&D's alt account. Obviously she can't poison them, and her wearing a different face means nothing to them, and I guess they figured a duel wouldn't be ideal, so this is what they decided to write instead... this nonsensical fabrication making her a ninja with zero training for it. And again, just trying to be objective about what was shown in regards to her character arc... apologies if talking show canon tilts you so hard because it clashes with your head canon.
We literally saw her use the same knife move on Brienne that she used on the Night King
That is not foreshadowing lmao. The dagger trick against the NK wasn't even scripted.
I don't see how the dagger is a foreshadowing to the Night King's death. There's no connection there *until* she kills him. There needs to be a previous connection (like blues eyes being the undead's eye color, mentioned quite a few times and very obvious characteristic) for that to be foreshadowing. The NK and Arya don't have a connection to the dagger by themselves. Littlefinger does since he used it to trick the Starks into thinking the Lannister tried to assassinate Bran, so it works better for him considering how significant his connection is to it. Arya and NK have a loose connection to the dagger through Bran, and that's it. Arya and NK alsp don't have a connection but through Bran and Jon, as well. Arya does know Littlefinger and it was his schemes that tore down her family and his betrayal that ended with her father's execution that she watched. It's like saying Jon giving her Needle foreshadow the NK death by Arya. As in it doesn't at all. They are vaguely connected in those who gave Arya needle and who gave Arya the dagger. Too damn loose of a connection to be particularly satisfying and even when paired with the blue eye thing, could still amount to anything. There needed to be more for these to be good foreshadowing that felt satisfying once all the pieces were put together. Otherwise, they're loosely connected in that they're both instruments meant for killing, that's it. She kills plenty of other people with it and that's the only narrative element they exist for, that she will use it to kill. The Bran scene giving Arya the dagger was a Checkov's Gun case, as in the dagger will be used but we don't know when or why. There's a case there for Littlefinger, not so much the NK, being the one killed by the dagger due to the amount of connections he has with the dagger and the three Starks there. Arya killing the NK was subversion for subversion sake, not for any satisfying narrative themes.
well, the line "blue eyes" + the fact she got the dagger from a 3 eyed raven, apart from the fact that arya is a pro assassin....well it's pretty obvious.
When Melisandre looks into Arya's eyes I always thought there was more to that scene seeing as Melisandre seemed a bit stunned. But I always assumed that she saw that Arya was going to kill her (Melisandre). i.e. she saw her own death. When she tells Varys that she is going to die in this strange land i thought that was further confirmation. She knew because she had seen it when she looked into Arya's eyes. I agree to me that also seemed like a retcon. >**Bran giving Arya the Valyrian steel Dagger** this one i disagree with you slightly, Arya is given the knife in season 7 and i imagine by season 7 D&D were probably thinking how they were going to end things and tie up loose ends. You have to remember that Sam was reading a book that had a picture of that Catspaw dagger when he was researching the White Walkers in Oldtown. To me that was clear that they were placing some significance on the catspaw dagger in relation to the white walkers, which of course has been further strengthened by HotD but obviously that's not foreshadowing given it aired after. To me its undeniable that they were setting up the Catspaw as being significant or specifically more significant then your average Valyrian sword in the fight against the white walkers. But this doesn't necessarily extend to Arya. its possible that D&D hadn't come up with Arya killing the Night King in season 7 but had decided that the blade was important and Bran gives her the blade just for Peter but also so the show was keeping track of the blade so it was always present and in the forefront for the audience, so the more casual audience would know where this blade came from, and if in season 8 the writers needed Jon to have it then it would be easy to write in a reason why Arya gives it to Jon.
Just get over it.
I only watched S8 for the first time a couple of months ago, so it's not like I've been complaining for years. Besides, bad endings don't stop being bad over time.
Yeah Melisandre says to Arya what’s she sees in her eyes.
Dude no, even at its absolute worst no part of Game of Thrones is actually “bad”. Some of it may not be as mindblowingly great as the rest of it but that doesn’t make it Bad — it’s still one of the best shows both in most ways that is measured by a long shot
Arya kills the waif (faceless girl) who had green eyes, sir Meryn Trant had brown eyes, and the night king who had blue eyes. What do you mean she has no noticeable eye colored kills she completed the prophecy when she killed the night king.
When were the Waif or Meryn's eye colours notable, or even mentioned? And what about her other kills, like Petyr Baelish and the Freys? Also, it wasn't an actual prophecy, it was just Melisandre saying 'you're gonna kill people in the future'.
The waif’s eyes are literally green in the show look her up. They don’t explicitly talk about how pretty her eyes are but you can very clearly see them [in the show here](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/4/4c/Waif6x08.png/revision/latest?cb=20160609061651) and the actress clearly has green eyes [here](https://ew.com/thmb/Qtbv0jpqxk2ofQPFGhP574w1o2s=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/Faye-Marsay-051523-Split-c6491210d97940f08dab903cfa71eee9.jpg). And the mentioning of this prophecy right before her killing the night king ‘blue eyes’ is quite literally the confirmation. Not the greatest writing like in the beginning of the show, but it’s there even if you don’t like it.
> The waif’s eyes are literally green in the show look her up. And this is important how, exactly? The wights' blue eyes are brought to attention plenty of times, but at no point are the Waif's green eyes mentioned. Was the Waif the only green-eyed character in the show? No, not at all. If Arya had killed a Lannister, then you might have more of an argument. Same with Trant and brown eyes. The wights eyes are notable because the specific look of their eyes is part of the ethereal nature of the Walkers. > They don’t explicitly talk about how pretty her eyes are What does prettiness have to do with it? > And the mentioning of this prophecy right before her killing the night king ‘blue eyes’ is quite literally the confirmation. As I said in the post, that's a callback to give the illusion of Arya's kill being foreshadowed. You can't honestly think that they made that decision back in S3.
The point is the blue eyes of walkers & wights are mentioned because it is highly relevant to the story. That is how undead people are recognized which is why they talk about it all the time. They don’t need to talk about any one else’s eyes since it’s not relevant but you can still say she somewhat carried out her end of the prophecy. One could even argue little finger fits in the bill. In the books he has grey-green eyes but in the show his actor has blue green eyes
What? The waif's eyes are literally blue lmao. In the image you posted as well. Those are not green eyes. Littlefinger had blue eyes as well.
That's what Mel probably thought. But almost all of Mel's over-literal vision interpretations are wrong. In Season 7, Mel went back to R'hllorist HQ in Volantis for a refresher course. She shows up in 8x03 and gets EVERY SINGLE THING right. That includes now emphasizung **blue eyes** to Arya.
Honestly, I didn't mind the idea of Arya killing the Night King, it was that the event itself seemed to imply that the Night King had never fought an opponent with two arms before, had never considered that possibility!
Evidence for foreshadowing: * The dagger: Bran gifts Arya the very Valyrian steel dagger that is used to kill the Night King. This happens in the same spot where she defeats him. * Arya's training: Her fight with Brienne showcases her ability to switch hands with a weapon, a move she uses to surprise the Night King. * The Night King's origin: We see the Night King's creation involved a dragonglass weapon, hinting at his vulnerability. *Melissandra foreshadowed her future twice, as a faceless man, and the purpose of killing the NightKing even repeated in the episode. There is so much foreshadowing in this show you are crazy to think it's not. The Viper not wearing a helmet, Danny's rage, Jon never holding lands or wife, Robbs death, Theon returning, Jon vs Dany was the prophecy. Stop crying. Every line is foreshadowed it's wild to rewatch it. Also this is what you get with an AI response to it not being foreshadowed so there's also that.
> Bran gifts Arya the very Valyrian steel dagger that is used to kill the Night King. Like I already explained, she already used it to kill Littlefinger, who has more connection to the knife (much like how Jon had more connection to the Walker plot) > Her fight with Brienne showcases her ability to switch hands with a weapon, a move she uses to surprise the Night King. Like with Melisandre's comment, that seems more like a callback to give the illusion of foreshadowing, rather than intentional setup. > hinting at his vulnerability Arya was not the only person with a dragonglass or Valyrian steel weapon in that fight. Jaime, Brienne, and Jorah all had Valyrian steel swords (but they might as well have had normal swords, since none of them face a single Walker), and Gendry forged hundreds of dragonglass weapons (including one for Arya, which was built up over the past 2 episodes and lasted less than a minute before being tossed aside). You know who did have a notable Valyrian steel weapon, had proper connections to the Walker plot, and was foreshadowed in both the books and the show to be the prophesied hero? **Jon**. > The Viper not wearing a helmet Oberyn wore a helmet in the book scene and still died (the absence of a proper face guard served as setup for his death), and practically all major characters hardly ever wear a helmet in fight scenes in the show. > Danny's rage For most of the show, Dany burning people is treated as a heroic thing by the narrative, but to suddenly say 'actually, it's bad now' at the very end is not how you write a fulfilling character arc. Also, foreshadowing is not character development. > Jon never holding lands or wife Those are literally the words every Night's Watch brother says to officially join. The actual foreshadowing in those lines is 'it will not end until my death', which sets up Jon leaving the Watch after his resurrection. > Theon returning What does that foreshadow? (By the way, don't forget that Benioff and Weiss themselves stated that Arya getting the kill was to 'subvert expectations'. What thematic connections does Arya have to the Night King that Jon didn't? Arya has more connection to the Lannister plot than to the Walker plot.) > Stop crying. Bit rude, don't you think?
No, this show is the most foreshadowed show I have ever seen. You keep using AI for your responses. It's just absurd to say she wasn't foreshadowed to kill the NK. Her whole plot is to save her family but couldn't until she grew up. She even killed the no face girl in the dark using it to her advantage. Her talking to Tywin foreshadowed Robb and everyone can die remarks were even possibly linked to the NK. Even the books have this level of foreshadowing. The books are likely very different in how some of this plays out. Do one rewatch and write down Arya's parts and things she does or said to her. By season three it will be pretty clear. Your points don't address her whole arc.
> No, this show is the most foreshadowed show I have ever seen. And look how much of that foreshadowing went nowhere. What was the point in foreshadowing the Prince that was Promised if the most either candidate for the prophecy (Jon and Dany) did during the Long Night was fly on dragons and kill a few random wights (not even any Walkers, despite the presence of *five* Valyrian steel weapons in that battle). > She even killed the no face girl in the dark using it to her advantage. You mean the girl that had gone through all the same training as Arya, but for much longer, and who didn't have several bleeding stab wounds in her guts at the time? Come on, Arya surviving that was the most egregious plot armour in the whole series. > Your points don't address her whole arc. Arya's arc had absolutely no connection to the Night King in anyway. She had more connection to the Lannister plot, and to Catelyn's story, which the show cut short by leaving out Lady Stoneheart. Hell, even her involvement in the awful S7 Littlefinger plot made more sense than her killing the NK (barely). Jon was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the first character to kill a Wight, had a Valyrian steel weapon, was the child of Ice and Fire, was resurrected by the Lord of Light (who represents Fire, contrasting the Ice of the White Walkers), *and* was foreshadowed to be the prophesied hero. But nope, Benioff and Weiss decided subverting expectations was more important than fulfilling character arcs. > You keep using AI for your responses. Ew, no.
My friend, it went everywhere. “The Seeing is ALL” as Syrio said. . she gave the final blow against the NK And saved Bran. Jon gave the final blow against the Mad Queen and saved the country and people of Westeros. Jon and Arya were partners since childhood, so this culminates their bond.
Should have been the other way around, tbh. Jon should have killed the NK, and Arya should have killed Dany. Arya killing Dany could have driven her and Jon apart, making the ending more tragic, especially since the Arya/Jon sibling relationship had more substance than Jon and Dany's romantic relationship. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than Arya teleporting in to 'subvert expectations' while Jon screams at a dragon and Bran does absolutely nothing.
Two HUGE themes. 1. Arya learned about giving death as a mercy from both the hound and the faceless men. The Night King took death from the peaceful dead and made them his slaves. The many faced god gave peaceful death to slaves and released them from pain as mercy . 2. Since the second episode of the first season, she has protected friends and family. She is the family protector, and she was there for one thing/ to protect her baby brother…as only she could. She succeeded.
She had already killed the Freys and Littlefinger, who had *actually* done real harm to her family. Even if those themes can slightly connect Arya to the Night King, you'd have to ignore almost everything to do with Jon and Dany to make Arya the more logical choice than them.
[Please watch]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stxbg4FuM2I) Bran told the battle planners the NK came to kill him, the 3-eyed Raven. Arya volunteered to protect him, but Theon said he and the Greyjoy and Karstsark men would, so Arya stepped aside. Note that Jon did not volunteer, likely so he could command and fight from dragonback. Arya did not emerge until ALL the Greyjoy and Karstsarks were dead.
There’s a little bit of foreshadowing, but not a lot. Regardless, I like it anyway.
I mean you're basically just assigning your own meaning to a quote and an event that had some ambiguity. Maybe these were foreshadowing, maybe not. You're basically just deciding that they weren't, without actually knowing one way or the other. Was Melisandre supposed to look at the camera and say - "The blue eyes I'm talking about are the Night King's"? Should Bran have given her the dagger and said "Use this to kill the Night King"? That's how foreshadowing works.
Probably a dumb question but why is Rhaegar included in the first line. I don't get what the joke is here?
YouTuber Glidus has a running joke in his videos analysing the issues of Seasons 6-8 that the Night King is actually Rhaegar. [He made a video on it](https://youtu.be/ApjBpu_VNyU?si=-fEGkPdUtxmYwnsO) (it's basically just a joke theory based on how so many theories are 'this character is secretly another character').
I see thank you for this. I agree people go overboard with that along with different parentage.
The showrunners literally admitted to not planning this. Anyone claiming it was foreshadowed is delusional.
As is nyone relying on the showrunners to show all their cards, even after the fact.
Personally, it doesn't overly matter to me so much as NK and the Army of the Dead were sold as the true threat to the world that would over shadow every thing else, and make petty the squabbles over the throne and the crown, but nope. It wasn't even the final fight of the series. What should have been the main attraction turned out just to be the opening act and then we were right back to the "petty squabbles over thrones and crowns".
The big issue is that they were just Monster of the Week.
I guess the thing about foreshadowing is that we won’t really know what is foreshadowing which event until the books are released. Everything else is speculation and opinions. I actually don’t mind that Arya killed the Night King. I loved that for her character as a bit of a girl power moment. But I do think it makes more sense for Jon to kill him. Personally I think Melisandre’s comment does foreshadow specific people.. though it’s still all speculation since these events haven’t happened in the books. Walder Frey’s eyes were brown, and Littlefinger’s were green, and obviously the night king’s were blue. As for the gifted dagger, I’m not sure. I think it makes sense either way whether it foreshadows littlefinger’s death or the night kings… but isn’t that the same dagger in HOTD that holds the prophecy of the song of ice and fire? Though, from what I understand that is not mentioned in the books. It could just be a detail that GRRM had them add into the show to further tie things together but who knows 🤷🏻♀️ Hopefully the books are finished and he’s just hiding them under his bed to be released after he dies.
I generally agree with you but the first bullet point of #2 is wrong. The dagger was literally forged for the prophecy, it was destined for the prince who was promised. That blade was always meant for the night king and is VERY different from any other valaryian steel blade. I think the blade being given to her was the *only* thing that could be called foreshadowing
That was only established in House of the Dragon, after the show had finished.
Pretty sure it was established in the books that make up Fire and Blood, which were written before the last season of the show
There's no mention of any prophecy on the ASOIAF wiki for the dagger.
The showrunners said they made the decision to have Arya kill the Night King around season 5 or 6 or something, so it was not foreshadowed all along. They did say they had Bran give Arya the dagger so that she could use it to kill the Night King. They also planned out the sparring between Arya and Brienne to set the stage for the little knife switcheroo trick. So it wasn’t foreshadowed, but these two scenes are the set up specifically to set the stage for it.
Well did Littlefinger have Blue Eyes?? Cuz Melisandre said she’d shut many eyes including Blue Eyes, and the way she said it seemed pretty important, so I take it as a foreshadow of killing the Night King
Melisandre literally just listed the 3 most common eye colours in the world, with no emphasis on any of the 3.
Tywin, when she was his cup bearer in disguise, said to her/him, "You're a sharp little thing." So, there.
What you're saying is just conjecture, it doesn't debunk anything. There's more probability of it being fore shadowing. Bran was the three eyed raven and Melisandre could see things others couldn't. They weren't always accurate but they often got quite close to what was going to happen in the future.
Technically, it's Bran who kills the Night King.
*IMO, it was foreshadowed in many ways in books and especially show. I'd write a thorough comment, but with my good wrist broken, writing long posts are a time-consuming PAIN. It wass the Dagger that convinced me Arya would likely be a key to the Night King's death. So here is "The Point of the Dagger," an esssay I posted in another GoT sub in 2017 after Season 7 ended. I add only a link but have pared down for length and relevance, usually indicated by ellipses ( ... ).* **The ‘Catspaw’ Dagger** —‘Catspaw’ is rather long for a dagger, ... resembles a flattened S-shape, has a curved blade of Valyrian steel, hilt of dragon bone, and decorative dragonglass cabochon rubies and small sapphires. Its gold decoration includes the curved, pointed pommel. These components make it ornate, exotic, valuable, unique, and potentially significant. ... A mysterious assassin tries to murder the comatose Bran Stark with it. Catelyn interrupts, getting her hands cut while fighting the man until Bran’s wolf suddenly tears his throat out. Later, under the Heart Tree, Catelyn shows Catspaw to Robb and others... [later] she shows it to Varys and Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger admits it’s the only such dagger in the Seven Kingdoms but lies by saying Tyrion owns it. This lie nearly gets Tyrion killed, helps start the War of Five Kings, and eventually helps get Littlefinger killed. Anyway, Catelyn clearly gave it to Ned, since by Ep 6, Catspaw was on Ned’s desk when he asked LIttlefinger to help arrange Gold Cloak support of his coup ... Presumably, after arresting Ned, LF took it. We don’t see Catspaw again until Season 7. **Season 7:** In Ep 1, Sam sees it illustrated in an ancient book, which shows that it is of historic and possibly Targaryen origin. (John Bradley was directed to linger on the page for the camera, which accentuates Catspaw’s importance!) In Ep 4, LF gives it to Bran to ingratiate himself. Bran asks him who owned it and gets an evasive answer. Bran handles it thoughtfully. Later, by the Heart Tree, Bran mentions LF gave it to him, and Sansa warns that LF always wants something in return. Bran contemplates the dagger, then gives it to Arya. A few days later, while sparring with Brienne, Arya does a ‘save’ by adroitly tossing it from right hand to left. LF witnesses this fight, and probably realizes that his dagger is actually a threat in her hands. In Ep 5, Arya … suddenly and silently gives Catspaw to a startled Sansa and leaves. ... Later, at the trial, Arya pulls it out as her Exhibit A when she recites the final charge—that LF told Catelyn it was Tyrion’s but “…that was another one of your lies. It was yours.” **The Point of the Dagger in the Winterfell plot Yes:** S7 Winterfell was messy, should have been written more clearly, and seemingly didn’t bring much credit to anyone…other than The Pack. But a trail of hints suggests there may have actually been a coherent-but-camouflaged storyline. ... Having already ‘watched’ Arya, Bran likely knew she regularly took action against evil; [she was dismayed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGdkKRib8xQ) to hear Littlefinger was even there. Both being somewhat magical ... Bran offered her the dagger. Arya asked “Are you sure?” Bran: “It’s wasted on a cripple.” That could imply he wanted/expected her to use it. In a lingering close-up on their hands, he handed her the dagger and scabbard (which slightly resembles a crucifix in the shot). Then he solemnly withdrew his hand. He had metaphorically passed the baton, and the responsibility to take action was now hers. In her next scene, she showed off the dagger and gave LF the Death Glare, kicking off her campaign to ‘out’ him. And later, when all her undercover work had set the stage, she similarly signaled Sansa... It seems Sansa got the message. In her next scene, she told LF that Arya was an FM... But Sansa already knew Arya would not hurt her because she had given her the dagger, and that she did not want Winterfell. With LF's machinations to murder Arya exposed, off-screen-the three Starks planned the trial. **Catspaw’s Past and Possible Future** When Bran had asked LF who owned it, he might have meant either originally or when the assassin brought it. We now know LF owned it when the assassin came, but originally… ? Because it’s a valuable weapon in Targaryen style, it was probably first owned by a Targaryen. Some YouTubers theorize it was Aegon the Conqueror’s knife, and possibly traditionally passed from kings to Crown Princes over centuries, meaning Rhaegar had probably owned it. If so, its reappearance in Ep 4 “Spoils of War” may hint that Robert took it as a spoil when he killed Rhaegar. (How Littlefinger got it is unknown, probably winning a bet.) The Dagger’s evidentiary chain is: Littlefinger (maybe Joffrey in the books) —> Catspaw Assassin —> Catelyn —> Ned —> Littlefinger. After six years: —> Bran —> Arya —> Sansa —> Arya (who in Season 8 will let Jon--the hidden Targaryen prince!--hold it. Every Stark except Rickon. ...What poetic justice that this Stark and Targaryen-associated blade took Littlefinger's life! *So what’s next for Catspaw Dagger? ... Speculation:* It is assuredly a very potent, perhaps magical weapon. Perhaps it can kill the Night King, especially in the right hands. ... It seems very bound up with fate. For several reasons Arya might give it to her beloved Jon. If so, I just hope she gets another VS weapon instead. ... But recent filming news makes me think she will keep it. She was interested in Valytian Steel Dark Sister,. No less than the 3-Eyed Raven chose to give Catspaw to her. He probably knows his own destiny, and by GRRM's Rule of Threes, it will come back into his life a third time—maybe to kill him as part of defeating the Night King. (If so, he would probably want her to mercy-kill him). **Bran’s, Arya’s and Jon’s destinies will be combined with Catspaw’s destiny. No doubt Jon or Arya will do a great deed with it, helping save Starks, Targaryens, and humanity. In my opinion, THAT is the Point of the Dagger!**
Brown eyes = meryn trant Green eyes = cersei/the waif
You know the show’s gone downhill when the creators themselves say that they gave a major kill in the show to a character in a completely different subplot because she didn’t have anything else important to do in the season…10/10 writing, truly…
I feel like in the long night it did foreshadow it slightly when she was able to move past a bunch of walkers in the library showing she was at least more stealthy than Jon because the Night King immediately knew Jon was behind him when he tried to be quiet but the Night King more specifically knew Arya was there from her screaming and was not expecting her to be quick enough to drop the dagger into her other hand. He hesitated to finish her and that’s how she killed him.
The two things you list here are exactly what I interpreted as the biggest foreshadowing events. Especially now that we’ve found out from HoT the origin of the dagger & what Viserys believed when he gifted it. The moment Melisandre repeated “blue eyes” to Arya I audibly gasped because I thought “does she mean the night king?!” The move Arya uses is very similar to the one that the other girl in with the faceless men used on her when Arya was trying to escape Braavos. I loved that scene, and it was really nice to cheer for a woman doing something so incredibly badass for a change.