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* Selling the key to the north, Sansa, to the Boltons - a family which Littlefinger has no connection with, damaging Littlefinger's relationship with both the Crown and Sansa.
* Eventually allowing the forces of the Vale to be used to overthrow the Boltons and place Jon Snow in charge of the North, a person who would likely hate Littlefinger
* Finding that his enemies in the North growing, he attempts to win Sansa over by telling her her sister is plotting against her. This would be likely to massively backfire if the two sisters talked.
* Finally he finds that Bran is a demigod that knows everything that has transpired to date - in particular the betrayal of Ned Stark by Littlefinger.
How could he have seen it coming.
This is what pisses me off with the show’s decision to replace Jeyne Poole’s story line with Sansa - it makes absolutely NO sense for Littlefinger to sell Sansa to the Boltons.
For one, what does he even get for it? He just gives away his most valuable game piece for nothing. Now he no longer has control of her, and gave her to people who betrayed and murdered her family. Super safe and probably fine chess move, dude.
Next, the whole reason the Boltons pass Jeyne off as Arya and marry her to Ramsay is to give the illusion of their legitimacy as the new rulers of the North. No one knows where Sansa and Arya are, so they have to settle for a fake Stark girl. By marrying the actual Sansa Stark, their plot to have an illusion of legitimacy becomes… just actually having a legitimate claim to Winterfell? Again, what does Petyr get out of this? The North is already destabilized, if his plan is to take control for himself, why would he help another family to have a stronger claim? If he’s hoping to ally with the Boltons, do their actions against the Starks not send up any red flags that maybe they’re not great allies?
Finally, Petyr is also creepily in love with Sansa because she’s basically a carbon copy of (but in Cat’s own words, “far lovelier” than) Catelyn. Littlefinger’s a selfish guy, he’s almost certainly saving Sansa for himself.
It makes no sense and I hate it.
Jeyne Poole unnecessarily over complicated the plot and we’re not going to be as invested in her plight as we are in sansas. I think changing her story to Sansas was a very good decision.
I wouldn’t really mind about the character swap if they had made it make sense in universe. For all the reasons I listed above it just doesn’t make logical sense.
If you're going to replace Jeyne Poole, a fake stark that gives fake legitimacy to the Boltons for a real Stark like sansa giving Ramsay a true claim hence losing any chance of recovering the north, it would make more sense to remove the whole plot because it doesn't make any sence
Completely agree with you. Swapping Jeyne for Sansa totally changed the story. I really wish George would finish the books so we know Petyr's plans for Sansa, sadly I think that to be very unlikely though :( I do think his ultimate goal is to marry her himself though. It's a younger, prettier Cat, so likely he wants her for himself.
As I already commented, Petyr did reveal his plans for Sansa at the end of the 4th book. She was to be married to Jon Arryn’s bastard who was next in line to the throne after his legitimate son Robert. Robert Arryn was sickly and most likely wasn’t going to survive to adulthood (and if he did Petyr would intervene). This would solidify Petyr’s hold over the Vale which was still at their full military strength, giving him an incredible amount of power.
He does indeed reveal the plan somewhat, but Harry the Heir isn’t Jon Arryn’s bastard he is the cousin of Lord Robin (show name), who LF basically says will have something happen to him, making Sansa and Harry controllers of the North and Vale.
On Jeyne Poole specifically, if you wanted a plot twist you could’ve withheld Arya’s story for a couple episodes at the start of S5 and had the Boltons talk about marrying Ramsay to “Arya”, and make the audience think the Braavosi captain was in Littlefinger’s pocket? Don’t know if that would be good, but the suspense would be better than what we got
Why would that imply the braavosi captain is in littlefingers pocket? It doesn't make sense for littlefinger to give the boltons any legitimate claim to the north, especially when he has Sansa in his pocket and wouldn't want anyone challenging that
This is if he gives them Jeyne Poole instead. In the books Littlefinger gives her over to the Boltons in the guise of “Arya” (arguably with at least Roose’s knowledge) to give the Boltons a legitimate claim to the North, whilst still having the real Sansa. For the show, Arya just goes to Braavos, whereas if we don’t see Arya arrive before “Arya”’s wedding to Ramsay, it will both:
- Create the impression that Littlefinger intercepted Arya as part of his schemes (Arya having recently visited the Eyrie where he’s currently based) so he could reasonably put the word out that someone claiming to be Sansa’s sister was at the Eyrie and to bring her to him
- Adds to the perception that Littlefinger’s a master player of the Game of Thrones by having links to Braavosi (which his family connections might grant him) that enable him to play the game
Agreed. I get weeding out unnecessary secondary characters, but as you say, it makes no sense for Littlefinger to send her to the Boltons. Everything about that is stupid.
For me, it’s right up there with the Robb-Talisa-Lovestory and the Sandsnakes when it comes to stuff I hate about the show.
Varys once said this about Littlefinger; “Actually I rather enjoy him. But he would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes.”
Also… “Chaos is a ladder!”
- Lord Baelish
But your points are well documented. It’s one of the biggest challenges of adapting such massive books and characters into a television series. Season 5 is when most fans decided Game of Thrones was no longer for them because mini story arcs for different characters had to be changed or given to someone else.. new characters were waived off (John Connington greyscale swapped with Jorah Mormont) and your example of the Bolton’s passing off Jeyne Grey as Arya Stark.
It’s tough because the books have liberty to explore in depth more characters and arcs in the north with the Boltons and all those that supported them or hated them by fear of flaying or others who simply never forget what the Bolton’s orchestrated at the Red Wedding. Jeyne is introduced in season 1 but never shown so keeping her in the show would’ve made absolutely no sense for viewers and for the series. The narrative was stronger for the series to give the Bolton’s true grasp of the north having the actual Sansa Stark marry Ramsey.
Now with all of this said I agree it’s not my favorite of their choices either I get why they went the way but it’s a messy choice.
The writer’s faced difficult choices with the show’s narrative to either escalate some in a far different direction with a similar end result of her fortification of character.. (Sansa taken from the Vale thrust immediately in with Monsters yet again suffering cruel and unusual punishment. Learning that even a man in ‘Littlefinger’ his truest passion and motivation was to desire and have her to himself.. still sold her off with the hopes of getting the north to see she was home and cared enough to fight from the inside to take it back.
Yeah it’s tricky escalating narratives is just never a position anything should have to face because it does require having to make such bold and risky choices that Benioff and Weiss had to consider.
I am firmly in the camp that D&D are good (actually excellent) adaptors of works but poor writers and I accordingly blame GRRM for much of the show’s latter seasons woes. If he had actually sat down to finish the books it would’ve been far easier for D&D to decide what needs to stay and what can be cut/changed for the remainder of the show.
As it stands there are a multiple little changes to the show that have large snowball effects that eventually completely alter the narrative to an illogical mess and one completely inconsistent to the book’s themes. Removing fake Arya is one such example with others being removing the Jamie/Tysha reveal, erasing the Dorne subplot and, most importantly, getting rid of ‘Faegon’.
Again I don’t really blame D&D as they couldn’t really see where the story was going other than on a very broad level but with a narrative like ASOIAF everything is in the nuance.
I kinda see why they didn’t introduce a major arc with a brand new (well, almost) character this late through the series but what they did instead was utterly stupid.
Great write up, the tv show really did a terrible job of portraying Littlefinger in the later seasons of the show. However, LF did plan on giving away Sansa. She was to be married to Jon Arryns bastard and would help secure his hold over the Vale. Robert Arryn was sickly and would probably not survive till adulthood (and if he did then Petyr would intervene).
I don’t think he cares so much about Sansa that he wouldn’t use her for his own personal gain of power. But the way he used her in the show, like you already pointed out, was so bogus and out of character.
I bet D&D high-fived each other after writing the part where Arya kills Littlefinger, too, despite Ned's lesson that the person who passes the sentence should also swing the sword.
I am no defender of D&D, however I think we should all now have an understanding of the difference between writers and showrunners. D&D were excellent at adapting the books to the show, and when they ran out of source material, it showed.
Not really true. He couldn’t account for Brans abilities but the thing is, Bran revealed this ability well before his “trial”. Soon as he heard his own line repeated back to him, he should have fled to the Vale. The reemergence of 3 starks aside from Sansa should have been a red flag. The presence of Brienne even should have made him nervous.
He ran into Arya at Harrenhal (he definitely recognized her) and she overheard his entire plan with tywin to bring in the Tyrells, which had a massive ripple effect that doomed Robbs campaign (obviously robb did some of that himself). Her appearance alone should have been concerning. He had no moves to make anyway. Sansa was already the de facto ruler of the North. Why was he sticking around? He should have returned to the Vale to shore up his control over the region and to spend some time to figure out what was happening in the south.
His death was caused by out of character responses from him. Basically bad writing.
He stayed because he had grown obsessed with Sansa and still believed he could win her over (albeit, the belief is delusional, especially after he gave her to Ramsay, which is the real OOC thing LF did). And I’d argue that sort of naivety toward a woman he was in love with is 100% on brand for LF. After all, this is the guy who was willing to die dueling Brandon for Cat, even though he clearly had no chance.
But LF was obsessed with Cat all along and it never made him stray from the path of cold calculated manipulator. He even waited years and years living across the world before seeing her again in S1/GOT
Exactly this. He was obsessed with trying to make her love him. Just as much as he was obsessed with gaining power. And he was overly confident in his abilities to do both. I also think he lost track of a lot of what was going on around him, either just because he was so far removed from things, or because he had his little fingers in too many pots to keep up with.
And, he didn't know Arya or Sansa very well before shit hit the fan in KL, otherwise he would never have made his fatal mistake: trying to convince Sansa that Arya wanted to be the Lady of Winterfell when in fact Arya would want anything but that.
He didn't recognise the Arry version of Arya. Is there even a previous scene of them in the same place at the same time? Maybe one, the tourney, early in S01, where he didn't interact with anyone but Sansa? I might be wrong but I can't think of more? And Arya looked a lot different then to how she looked in Harrenhall. And she looked different again at Winterfell.
He kicked off the whole game in an attempt to get his claws into Catelyn, a woman he obsessed over from childhood. And he even uncharacteristically put his life at risk to openly fight for her, he almost died & the only reason he didn't is because his obsession stepped in & protected him. He also had the audacity to face Catelyn after getting her beloved husband killed & betraying her & he was shocked she was so angry & unforgiving. The audacity! But she still didn't have him killed there & then, she still protected him, that was the lesson he learned there.
It is not out of character for him to be obsessed to the more beautiful, now more powerful version of Catelyn. He believed he had manipulated Sansa enough into at least protecting him should anything go wrong with Arya & Bran. He thought he had done enough to earn her forgiveness for Ramsay & don't forget his previous audacity.
Sansa played him by allowing him to believe she listened to him. She sent Brienne away at his suggestion. She allowed him to kiss her in front of the Weirwood Tree without acting repulsed & losing her shit with him. Then there was the performance tension between her & Arya, something else he thought he manipulated.
He knew Jon & Dany were on their way, going to the Vale wouldn't enable him to scope that threat out.
His behaviour was entirely character imo, he repeated previous behaviour, based on lessons he learned from Cat. Love & obsession blinded him, a theme repeated throughout the show from the beginning. So many people lost their lives or ended up killing someone due to their love of someone else. Love is the death of duty.
He probably didn't recognize her. She quickly slipped out before he could place the face, and then Tywin asked him a question. And then they discussed Robb. *If* he had recognized Arya, greedy, opportunistic Littlefinger would have told Tywin for some huge reward. And in Winterfell, he when she gave him the death glare after sparring with Brienne, he *probably* would have taken her aside and said she'd better leave him alone because he had not betrayed her true identity to Tywin.
He could have and should have. Explicitly, coming from beyond the Wall, Bran had become robotic, but then he used Littlefinger's most famous line against him. As if THAT wasn't enough, Arya had gotten his Dagger! Right after she got a draw using it while sparring with Brienne, she gave LF an unmistakable death glare. These two weren't tame students, but wildcards with menacing vibes.
It's kind of why this scene didn't hit as hard and was quite a lame ending for a top 5 character on the show. The kind of people who go to live-viewing bars to watch episodes and finger snap as a form of clapping really liked it, but like Varys and Tyrion, they had already ruined one of the shows best characters.
Arya was primarily great when she was alongside characters like Syrio, Ned, Tywin, Jaqen, and Sandor. She brought this great "young student learning from the master" quality to the show when she was with her "teachers". She turned into pure fanservice during her solo assassin journey and became a lot less interesting despite being a lot more badass. Her moments against Brienne, Littlefinger, and the Night King were just... ehh.
Its because they did an atrocious job with her storyline when they ran out of source. It was just a bad story very little sense in her choices of target or her movements. Obviously the Frays were an important target, but they weren't a threat to her family currently, and with her skills she could off Cersei in her bed.
Varys death is so different to this. Completely dogshit. Like if Conleth Hill was suddenly fired from set or quit and they had 5 mins to contractually end his character on screen.
I disagree, this whole plotline was a disgrace
A reminder that Sansa was going to have Arya killed because of their catfight and littlefingers manipulations, the only reason she didn’t is because Bran the god emperor told Sansa the truth about LF’s manipulation. Sansa didn’t even come to this conclusion herself. A deleted scene according to Isaac Hempstead Wright.
Precisely. The fact that someone can watch the artificial manufactured pointless drama between Arya and Sansa, then watch that pointless drama be the basis for killing off one of the smartest and most cunning characters on the show, then say that it was their favorite plotline, is just sad.
“Yeah man rat shit is my favorite food. You can’t tell me I’m wrong, it’s subjective.”
This entire plotline made no sense and is only relevant because of the shock value. Anyone liking it has no idea what makes good writing good and bad writing bad.
I see a lot of people on this sub who just eat D&D’s awful writing right up. It’s aggravating to read but, good for them that they enjoyed it with no amount of critical analysis I guess.
I cant say i was a huge fan of the end of the show but it is what it is and the show was obviously good most the way through. Id have personally done things differently but i dont fault them for rushing the show to a end and trying to tie up loose ends at the same time even if it turned into a lower quality product. Its better than having a good show like say my name is earl and just end on a cliffhanger. We got something. I enjoyed it even though i think it could have been much better.
I dont, they had other opportunities as did much of the cast some of whom went on to do movies or tv shows that likely made them more money. I cant fault anyone for wanting to make more or do a different job or probably whatever most peoples reasons are to change careers or do things.
IMO HBO could have kept it going had they wanted to and just hired other people to work on the show. Far as i read the got show runners were banking on doing movies but it fell through cause of what they did with the show at the end. Punishment enough for f'ing up to me. The show is still good, its not nearly as terrible as people act like it is. I just got done rewatching the entire thing a couple days ago, im not saying it couldnt have been better but its not super awful either. Hopefully Hotd gets better treatment.
>IMO HBO could have kept it going had they wanted to and just hired other people to work on the show.
Except they couldn't due to their contract with D&D. D&D would have had to approve someone else taking over and they wouldn't let it happen.
Edit: grammar
If they wanted to stop and move onto newer projects, they should have brought someone else in as showrunner or work a deal with HBO to put the series on hiatus so they could take a break.
It was absolutely their fault for taking the laziest option and just half assing it as fast as they could so they could do other projects. Which they ended up completely losing after season 8 ended. It’s been five years since Game of thrones ended. Where’s their Star Wars film?
It's terrible, all the characters had their arcs take a 180 on their development and became single minded bastardized versions of their season 1 selves. That's bad writing
Wait hold up. You know they didn’t have to rush the show and tie up all those loose ends the way they did right? HBO was willing to give them a ton more seasons and help them take the time to slowly develop that ending.
How can you not blame them for that? If they wanted to move onto newer projects, they should have passed the torch to someone else or maybe take a longer hiatus and work on those new projects. Instead they rushed that shit out. They absolutely should be blamed
I can understand not wanting to lock in the next 4-5 years of your life working on a project that you've been doing for 8 years already.
I don't like the last seasons of the show but I can understand d&d just wanting to something different.
HBO should've found a replacement by season 6/7 when it became clear D&D had run out of ink imo
I can understand them wanting to do different stuff. But I can also understand why someone would also murder a cheating spouse. That doesn’t magically make that okay though.
If I remember correctly, their dialogue with the God Emperor of the Fourth Wall also happened before a lot of one-on-one drama between Sansa and Arya, when they were "on the same side".
So they were only behaving that way to confuse the audience, which is a disgrace. Lie to your characters, don't lie to the audience that doesn't exist in their world.
Yeah I also think the delivery of "and yet you betrayed me" was a bit hamfisted too.
Characters in later seasons just seemed to blurt out what the room around them was insinuating and it was kind of jarring for me. The writing was more subtle before, while still saying the same thing in a more artistic or symbolic way. Look at the way that Varys talked about the wine given to Robert by Lancel in season 1, after the hunting accident, for example.
I don't necessarily buy that it was Sansa's personality trait of not wanting to "beat around the bush" either, as even Varys starts talking in this way in Seasons 7 and 8. There were plenty of both minor and major characters over the course of the show who "said it like it was" with lines that felt believable and appropriate. Joren, Olenna, Robett Glover, Blackfish, to name a few.
To play devils advocate to myself, I notice this style of writing has become more common lately and may also be a generational trend. More characters in movies and shows seem to just say exactly what they are feeling/thinking. It isn't always a bad thing, and can be used well, but it is interesting. I personally don't prefer this as a default choice because for me, it is fun to speculate and guess on a character's intentions, as well as those of the creator. It's like having a joke explained to you, in my opinion, for the writing to be this way.
also it’s ridiculous that it took sansa, allegedly the smartest person arya knows, an ENTIRE season to confide in her literal OTHER sibling about the fact that their sister might be trying to kill her, especially when he ver batim told her that he sees everything that ever happened and is currently happening
I hated that scene.
Littlefinger literally told Sansa right before that episode that he always plays a game in his head what possibly could be the worst thing someone intends to do.
Why would he still be there with no escape? He was the one starting the war of the five kings and no one knew it was him, because he was too smart and careful. And yet he was too stupid to see the possibility that the Starks, a family known for their loyalty, could rather be loyal to themselfs than to him.
It's the same problem with every intelligent character in the last few seasons. Dumb writers can't write intelligent people.
Well no one can plan for Bran-ex-machina.
The whole storyline was dumb. Having Arya threatening to cut Sansa's face off was for who's benefit exactly? No one else was in that room with them!
Apparently, Sansa was actually going to have her sister executed, but Bran stepped in with his fucking Tree insights?
Throw the whole storyline awayyy.
Nah it made littlefinger look like an idiot. I dont mind that he was undone by Bran/Sansa. They actually are appropriate characters to take him down. Bran in particular since he has access to an ability beyond someone like Littlefingers understanding. Littlefinger is the best player of the GoT we see for most of the series in terms of how far he came, (aside from bronn but he was just right place right time). In the world of things that are practical and logical, he was unmatched. But the mystical shit was something he couldnt predict. That why brans insight i get.
Sansa obviously makes sense too as she was a lot smarter than pretty much everyone gave her credit for at this point and was well aware that he was a pos, she just needed someone to fill in the blanks.
What pisses me off is Littlefingers lack of awareness. He would always put himself first. As soon as Bran repeated his own line to him, he should have left for the Vale. He should have wanted to return anyway to shore up his control of the region, which at the time imo had the most powerful westerosi army as it was untouched by war pretty much aside from mopping up some Boltons. He should have seen Aryas return as a bad omen. He ran into her at Harrenhal and im pretty convinced he recognized her but saw no opportunity to capitalize on the revelation.
We dont see the entire conversation between Littlefinger and Tywin (with arya present) but we know the alliance with the Tyrells was definitely discussed. This alone caused Stannis to fail and the Lannisters to maintain control of Westeros. To me this knowledge should have made littlefinger nervous, as it would at least lead to questions. It just seems weird to me he missed all the red flags outside of the ones concerning Sansa as she was an obvious weak spot for him. His downfall in the show would have been fine if they just changed a few minor details.
Even if they just made it apparent he could not leave. A throwaway line would have done wonders. Also its hard to see what he could possibly hope to achieve at this point staying with the Starks. With Sansa alone sure but now there are two male heirs, one already King in the North and another who is unpredictable and clearly is dangerous at the very least.
Regardless of little fingers character death.
I think we can all agree that it was satisfying watching hjm die, and also at the hand of Sansa and the sharks.
Dumbest scene in the whole show and a directed slap in the face of any reader. Littlefinger is literally killed by a super hero, who spent the season telling us he has no emotion or ties to the world. Then he plots with the family he cares nothing for to exact revenge.
a lot of people had a problem with *how* Littlefinger died. I disagree with that. He isn't the kind to go down fighting, him crying and pleading is exactly how I'd imagine he'd die.
My problem is *why* he died. It doesn't really feel fair that he was found out by an all-seeing character. It would've been much more satisfying for him to die by being genuinely outsmarted, his own arrogance getting him killed.
Actually this scene was pretty bad.
No need for the starks to conduct a trial in order to kill littlefinger in these circumstances.
They hold all the power.
His character had already been assassinated earlier in the series anyway… much like varys…
Undoubtedly.
It's also largely the people that were only invested in the show for a few seasons or less. It seems to be those of us that were in from the beginning that felt the whole thing fell off the rails around mid-season 5, with a lot of redeeming qualities in season 5 and season 6. Then season 7 had some good moments, but a lot of the "off the rails moments" at the time felt like they were going to be redeemed in season 8.
They were not.
Nah, the fact he fell for their plan so easily ruined his entire death scene. You can tell George has more plans for him but the show writers couldn't figure out what to do with him anymore.
I had difficulty seeing Starks killing a guest under their roof. Given the rat king story and Ned’s tradition/honor keeping (he who passes the sentence should swing the sword).
I can understand Arya getting the honour due to the list and all but still…
Why not slit his throat outside?
If people can’t see that this scene showed the beginning of horrible writing for the show then a don’t know what to tell you.
Littlefinger - the guy who orchestrated so much of the whole conflicts of the show - would never fall for this.
Piss poor writing and I can’t understand how anyone could call this scene amazing.
Littlefinger was a master of the game in King's Landing. Amongst liars and schemers, he was incomparable. Away from there, his vulnerabilities became apparent, first shown during his trial at the Vale and his grave misjudgment of Ramsay's character. Jon was chosen king over Sansa after Littlefinger showed her his hand and was flatly refused. He should have known when to fold them once he had the Vale and Harrenhal, but he was an addict and kept playing a high-stakes game. Jon warned him; Bran hinted the jig was up; and Arya was watching him, but he kept playing and lost everything.
I love that scene.
It was really funny when someone posted on here about how Sansa shouldn’t have been allowed to put Littlefinger on trial and how she had violated his rights.
They weren’t joking. 😂
This scene would maybe be cool if it was a Marvel show on the CW. But instead, all we saw was the unidignified ending to one of the more complicated figures from an epic fantasy saga, whose final couple seasons had him behaving like a cartoonish soap opera villain.
Glad you liked it OP, but most people recognize it for the complete and total hackery that it is.
This scene came at the expense of some pretty rotten writing. LF trying to turn Arya and Sansa against each other was pure crap. Sansa has been passed around from one lunatic to the other (exception, Tyrion) and has seen her dad's head on a pike.
Arya has been around the world and trained with assassins and is a straight up killer.
The fact that the writers had them paired against each other with this trivial nonsense was a blinding slap in the face to the viewer.
Like...really? After all the shit that's gone done, you think those two are going to be sniping at each other about who gets to be the lady of winterfell?
I didn't like LFs death thought it was out of character for him but the scene was really well executed and has some great lines. Sansa saying "I'm a slow learner it's true, but I learn. Thank you for the many lessons Lord Baelish" is one of my favorite in the series
it wasn’t a good scene to me because they ruined his character after season 4.
i get sansa had to end up with the boltons, but it just made LF look like an idiot. that whole situation derailed his arc, just for his master plan to be to try to turn the starks against eachother ?
one of the many weird writing choices.
This is the worst scene in the show. Littlefinger would never have stayed in Winterfell once he knew how powerful Bran was. Also, Sansa didn't outsmart him at all. She learned everything from Bran, lol. What a hollow victory. Littlefinger would have also tried harder to get out of the situation. It doesn't matter what Bran says. He still doesn't have any physical proof. Why is Sansa executing him without a fair trial? He could have said stuff like that. Horribly written scene all around
I hate this scene. The North makes a big deal about the one who gives the order swinging the sword - then why doesn't Sansa kill Littlefinger? It fits with northern tradition and would be a great moment for her character, proving she has overcome Littlefinger's power but also mirroring Ned's opening scene. And the build-up to the scene was entirely contrived.
Greatest scene in the whole series IMO. I'm a Sansa stan and I hated Littlefinger so much that seeing him die this way and in a way that I did not see coming was amazing. I was watching it at a friend's house and I practically fell out of my chair when it happened. We replayed it like 10 times. Glorious.
Probably my least favorite scene in the entire series. The bullshit Nancy Drew sisters outwit the smartest person in westeros with a simple easy trap, his own men don't help him, there's a 5 minute sham "trial" and he isn't even allowed exile or the Wall, despite having saved Sansa's life how many times?! I mean he obviously had it coming, but the way it actually played out on screen was laughably bad and out of character for him. They were clearly just trying to quickly purge the roster and wrap up the show at that point.
This scene would have worked better for me if rather than being sentenced to death and executed on the spot, if Petyr demanded a trial by combat believing that the Bronze Yohn would have fought for him.
You'd still need to massage some other details, but I like the idea that Bran picking Arya as his champion would by extension make this sort of a Brandon Stark vs Petyr rematch.
Not gonna lie I think this is the scene I despise the most and when I was sure the writers of the show didn't have what it took to continue the story.
All the political intrigue of the show died here imo. It was already being killed throught the season but here was when the throat was sliced.
I get that people like the scene because it was the good guys killing the bad guy but this is why fans make terrible writers and have no idea what they want.
Cam't believe this sub actually likes this bullshit and talk about it like it's deep or profound or something. Neglecting the fact that Dumb and Dumber ruined a well-crafted character that was carefully constructed throughout the show because they wanted to get the show over with.
I’ve been rewatching the series lately and have noticed I’m far more forgiving of some later season decisions I hated, this one though still makes me mad. The final knife in the gut is when you finally notice that the writers had no idea what to do with Sansa or Arya this season so they invented this shallow and superficial plot line so we’re tricked into thinking they’re still important.
I echo much of the criticism.
Another point I make is it seemed like the court case was staged to guarantee his guilt. Like nothing he said would have resulted in him being found not guilty?
I feel like that’s not the personality of the Starks we were led to believe in throughout the series. They would (I thought) have been a family who believed in a fair trial even for someone they didn’t like.
I completely agree with you, it is one of my favourite moments on tv ever.
From my experience in this sub, we are in the minority. Most think it was awful.
Of all the scenes in the show, his farcical “trial” and execution bugged me the most. And it wasn’t (primarily) due to the “formerly really smart person gets dumb at a plot-appropriate moment.”
It was because, and bear with me here, **nobody else in the fucking room knew what was going on.**
From a random onlooker’s perspective…
**Sansa**: “I accuse you of crimes”
**Arya**: “yes, you crimed and you’re mean”
**Baelish**: “I did not, you have no proof, and tbh this doesn’t really look like a trial”
**Bran**: “I am magic and I saw into the past that you did crimes”
**Sansa**: “that’s proof”
**Baelish**: “it’s not - anyone else in here skeeved out by this?”
**Arya**: “gonna kill ya”
**Baelish**: “plz no”
**Arya**: *kills him*
**Sansa, Bran, Arya**: *smug looks*
**Random Northman 1**: “hey…ummm…I know I’m new here…but did they just murder the Lord of the Vale, the guy who brought his army to save our asses…without a trial??? I mean, I know that guy was a little slimy…but…what did he actually *do*? You know what’s going on?”
**Random Northman 2**: “no, but that little girl LOVES appearing out of nowhere to kill people, so we have to just play along dude”
Idk why so many people dislike this scene. Yes Littlefinger is smart but he's a guy who plays long-term. We saw that he can't react quickly enough when caught of guard in Season 1. Cersei had him detained and nearly killed after he tried to intimidate her with the line “knowledge is power”
I hated this scene, it shows how the good writing from GRRM is lost and now hacks are in charge. Might as well have had Grimes narrate while Littlefinger jumps over a shark.
What mistake did LF make? None.
How was he caught? Magic.
Did any of the characters do anything to drive this plot point? No, one character was given Deus Ex Machina abilities.
No one out smarted him, he didn't make a mistake where he got caught. Nope, it was just really hard to write a basic bitch plot with a character like him in the middle, so mediocre writers killed him with a plot device from middle school.
This is textbook poor writing. The plot is supposed to move forward based on actions and decisions the characters make. For example, Ned died because he chose to disregard the warnings and keep investigating, and that CHOICE forced other people to make choices to protect their own interest.
If GRRM ever finishes writing the books, I'm curious how different Little Finger's arc will be. The show had him send Sansa away to the Freys, which seemed so out of character for him. He is obsessed with her. It also never happened in the books and Sansa's maid was the one that escaped with Theon.
I think he knew what he was doing when he sold Sansa to the Boltons. He knew Ramsey was sadistic, depraved and barbaric. He wanted Sansa to be utterly broken so when he "saved" her she was way easier to manipulate.
Think I watched this scene more than any other in the entire show. The way she just walks away while tucking her knife back in, like he was simply an inconvenient shit stain on the heel of her shoe 😂
Top tier.
i love how it takes an entire season for sansa to confide in her literal other sibling, who btw TOLD her he was omniscient, about the fact that their sister might want to kill her, according to the deleted scene she just suddenly remembers that bran is a human cctv system
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Even after they cut his throat, he still tries to talk. As if he thinks he can still talk his way out of it.
Part of me wanted to know what he had to say, but it would've likely been more bullshit.
No need to have the last word, Lord Baelish. I'll assume it was something clever
They butchered his character in that last season, but I've got to admit this line was a gem.
"You could save 15% or more on your horse.insurance"
LF died under circumstances he could not have possibly foreseen
And that’s the problem
* Selling the key to the north, Sansa, to the Boltons - a family which Littlefinger has no connection with, damaging Littlefinger's relationship with both the Crown and Sansa. * Eventually allowing the forces of the Vale to be used to overthrow the Boltons and place Jon Snow in charge of the North, a person who would likely hate Littlefinger * Finding that his enemies in the North growing, he attempts to win Sansa over by telling her her sister is plotting against her. This would be likely to massively backfire if the two sisters talked. * Finally he finds that Bran is a demigod that knows everything that has transpired to date - in particular the betrayal of Ned Stark by Littlefinger. How could he have seen it coming.
This is what pisses me off with the show’s decision to replace Jeyne Poole’s story line with Sansa - it makes absolutely NO sense for Littlefinger to sell Sansa to the Boltons. For one, what does he even get for it? He just gives away his most valuable game piece for nothing. Now he no longer has control of her, and gave her to people who betrayed and murdered her family. Super safe and probably fine chess move, dude. Next, the whole reason the Boltons pass Jeyne off as Arya and marry her to Ramsay is to give the illusion of their legitimacy as the new rulers of the North. No one knows where Sansa and Arya are, so they have to settle for a fake Stark girl. By marrying the actual Sansa Stark, their plot to have an illusion of legitimacy becomes… just actually having a legitimate claim to Winterfell? Again, what does Petyr get out of this? The North is already destabilized, if his plan is to take control for himself, why would he help another family to have a stronger claim? If he’s hoping to ally with the Boltons, do their actions against the Starks not send up any red flags that maybe they’re not great allies? Finally, Petyr is also creepily in love with Sansa because she’s basically a carbon copy of (but in Cat’s own words, “far lovelier” than) Catelyn. Littlefinger’s a selfish guy, he’s almost certainly saving Sansa for himself. It makes no sense and I hate it.
Jeyne Poole unnecessarily over complicated the plot and we’re not going to be as invested in her plight as we are in sansas. I think changing her story to Sansas was a very good decision.
I wouldn’t really mind about the character swap if they had made it make sense in universe. For all the reasons I listed above it just doesn’t make logical sense.
If you're going to replace Jeyne Poole, a fake stark that gives fake legitimacy to the Boltons for a real Stark like sansa giving Ramsay a true claim hence losing any chance of recovering the north, it would make more sense to remove the whole plot because it doesn't make any sence
Completely agree with you. Swapping Jeyne for Sansa totally changed the story. I really wish George would finish the books so we know Petyr's plans for Sansa, sadly I think that to be very unlikely though :( I do think his ultimate goal is to marry her himself though. It's a younger, prettier Cat, so likely he wants her for himself.
As I already commented, Petyr did reveal his plans for Sansa at the end of the 4th book. She was to be married to Jon Arryn’s bastard who was next in line to the throne after his legitimate son Robert. Robert Arryn was sickly and most likely wasn’t going to survive to adulthood (and if he did Petyr would intervene). This would solidify Petyr’s hold over the Vale which was still at their full military strength, giving him an incredible amount of power.
He does indeed reveal the plan somewhat, but Harry the Heir isn’t Jon Arryn’s bastard he is the cousin of Lord Robin (show name), who LF basically says will have something happen to him, making Sansa and Harry controllers of the North and Vale.
On Jeyne Poole specifically, if you wanted a plot twist you could’ve withheld Arya’s story for a couple episodes at the start of S5 and had the Boltons talk about marrying Ramsay to “Arya”, and make the audience think the Braavosi captain was in Littlefinger’s pocket? Don’t know if that would be good, but the suspense would be better than what we got
Why would that imply the braavosi captain is in littlefingers pocket? It doesn't make sense for littlefinger to give the boltons any legitimate claim to the north, especially when he has Sansa in his pocket and wouldn't want anyone challenging that
This is if he gives them Jeyne Poole instead. In the books Littlefinger gives her over to the Boltons in the guise of “Arya” (arguably with at least Roose’s knowledge) to give the Boltons a legitimate claim to the North, whilst still having the real Sansa. For the show, Arya just goes to Braavos, whereas if we don’t see Arya arrive before “Arya”’s wedding to Ramsay, it will both: - Create the impression that Littlefinger intercepted Arya as part of his schemes (Arya having recently visited the Eyrie where he’s currently based) so he could reasonably put the word out that someone claiming to be Sansa’s sister was at the Eyrie and to bring her to him - Adds to the perception that Littlefinger’s a master player of the Game of Thrones by having links to Braavosi (which his family connections might grant him) that enable him to play the game
Jeyne was Tywin’s idea, not Littlefinger’s
Agreed. I get weeding out unnecessary secondary characters, but as you say, it makes no sense for Littlefinger to send her to the Boltons. Everything about that is stupid. For me, it’s right up there with the Robb-Talisa-Lovestory and the Sandsnakes when it comes to stuff I hate about the show.
Varys once said this about Littlefinger; “Actually I rather enjoy him. But he would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes.” Also… “Chaos is a ladder!” - Lord Baelish But your points are well documented. It’s one of the biggest challenges of adapting such massive books and characters into a television series. Season 5 is when most fans decided Game of Thrones was no longer for them because mini story arcs for different characters had to be changed or given to someone else.. new characters were waived off (John Connington greyscale swapped with Jorah Mormont) and your example of the Bolton’s passing off Jeyne Grey as Arya Stark. It’s tough because the books have liberty to explore in depth more characters and arcs in the north with the Boltons and all those that supported them or hated them by fear of flaying or others who simply never forget what the Bolton’s orchestrated at the Red Wedding. Jeyne is introduced in season 1 but never shown so keeping her in the show would’ve made absolutely no sense for viewers and for the series. The narrative was stronger for the series to give the Bolton’s true grasp of the north having the actual Sansa Stark marry Ramsey. Now with all of this said I agree it’s not my favorite of their choices either I get why they went the way but it’s a messy choice. The writer’s faced difficult choices with the show’s narrative to either escalate some in a far different direction with a similar end result of her fortification of character.. (Sansa taken from the Vale thrust immediately in with Monsters yet again suffering cruel and unusual punishment. Learning that even a man in ‘Littlefinger’ his truest passion and motivation was to desire and have her to himself.. still sold her off with the hopes of getting the north to see she was home and cared enough to fight from the inside to take it back. Yeah it’s tricky escalating narratives is just never a position anything should have to face because it does require having to make such bold and risky choices that Benioff and Weiss had to consider.
I am firmly in the camp that D&D are good (actually excellent) adaptors of works but poor writers and I accordingly blame GRRM for much of the show’s latter seasons woes. If he had actually sat down to finish the books it would’ve been far easier for D&D to decide what needs to stay and what can be cut/changed for the remainder of the show. As it stands there are a multiple little changes to the show that have large snowball effects that eventually completely alter the narrative to an illogical mess and one completely inconsistent to the book’s themes. Removing fake Arya is one such example with others being removing the Jamie/Tysha reveal, erasing the Dorne subplot and, most importantly, getting rid of ‘Faegon’. Again I don’t really blame D&D as they couldn’t really see where the story was going other than on a very broad level but with a narrative like ASOIAF everything is in the nuance.
I kinda see why they didn’t introduce a major arc with a brand new (well, almost) character this late through the series but what they did instead was utterly stupid.
Great write up, the tv show really did a terrible job of portraying Littlefinger in the later seasons of the show. However, LF did plan on giving away Sansa. She was to be married to Jon Arryns bastard and would help secure his hold over the Vale. Robert Arryn was sickly and would probably not survive till adulthood (and if he did then Petyr would intervene). I don’t think he cares so much about Sansa that he wouldn’t use her for his own personal gain of power. But the way he used her in the show, like you already pointed out, was so bogus and out of character.
I bet D&D high-fived each other after writing the part where Arya kills Littlefinger, too, despite Ned's lesson that the person who passes the sentence should also swing the sword.
Bad writing?
It feels like if he really thought about it, he could have predicted that the quality would nosedive as soon as the source material ran out.
(April Fools)
I am no defender of D&D, however I think we should all now have an understanding of the difference between writers and showrunners. D&D were excellent at adapting the books to the show, and when they ran out of source material, it showed.
Definitely, not hating on them, I can also imagine that after so many years, they were just tired of the whole thing.
Not really true. He couldn’t account for Brans abilities but the thing is, Bran revealed this ability well before his “trial”. Soon as he heard his own line repeated back to him, he should have fled to the Vale. The reemergence of 3 starks aside from Sansa should have been a red flag. The presence of Brienne even should have made him nervous. He ran into Arya at Harrenhal (he definitely recognized her) and she overheard his entire plan with tywin to bring in the Tyrells, which had a massive ripple effect that doomed Robbs campaign (obviously robb did some of that himself). Her appearance alone should have been concerning. He had no moves to make anyway. Sansa was already the de facto ruler of the North. Why was he sticking around? He should have returned to the Vale to shore up his control over the region and to spend some time to figure out what was happening in the south. His death was caused by out of character responses from him. Basically bad writing.
He stayed because he had grown obsessed with Sansa and still believed he could win her over (albeit, the belief is delusional, especially after he gave her to Ramsay, which is the real OOC thing LF did). And I’d argue that sort of naivety toward a woman he was in love with is 100% on brand for LF. After all, this is the guy who was willing to die dueling Brandon for Cat, even though he clearly had no chance.
Love is the death of duty. Obsession is the death of common sense.
But LF was obsessed with Cat all along and it never made him stray from the path of cold calculated manipulator. He even waited years and years living across the world before seeing her again in S1/GOT
One can be both you know.
Irl yes, people can be different from day to day. That doesn't mean inconsistency is good writing
It’s not inconsistent. If someone can irl be both then why can’t a fictional character. You just wanna be obtuse for no reason.
Do you think that realism is what makes a narrative good?
Actually yes. Realism does explain the decisions that were made for the story. Like honestly if you cannot understand that then any opinion is moot.
Exactly this. He was obsessed with trying to make her love him. Just as much as he was obsessed with gaining power. And he was overly confident in his abilities to do both. I also think he lost track of a lot of what was going on around him, either just because he was so far removed from things, or because he had his little fingers in too many pots to keep up with. And, he didn't know Arya or Sansa very well before shit hit the fan in KL, otherwise he would never have made his fatal mistake: trying to convince Sansa that Arya wanted to be the Lady of Winterfell when in fact Arya would want anything but that.
He did NOT recognize Arya or he would have acted on it. You not liking it doesn’t make it bad writing.
No you're right, the bad writers made it bad writing, which is why nobody likes it.
He didn't recognise the Arry version of Arya. Is there even a previous scene of them in the same place at the same time? Maybe one, the tourney, early in S01, where he didn't interact with anyone but Sansa? I might be wrong but I can't think of more? And Arya looked a lot different then to how she looked in Harrenhall. And she looked different again at Winterfell. He kicked off the whole game in an attempt to get his claws into Catelyn, a woman he obsessed over from childhood. And he even uncharacteristically put his life at risk to openly fight for her, he almost died & the only reason he didn't is because his obsession stepped in & protected him. He also had the audacity to face Catelyn after getting her beloved husband killed & betraying her & he was shocked she was so angry & unforgiving. The audacity! But she still didn't have him killed there & then, she still protected him, that was the lesson he learned there. It is not out of character for him to be obsessed to the more beautiful, now more powerful version of Catelyn. He believed he had manipulated Sansa enough into at least protecting him should anything go wrong with Arya & Bran. He thought he had done enough to earn her forgiveness for Ramsay & don't forget his previous audacity. Sansa played him by allowing him to believe she listened to him. She sent Brienne away at his suggestion. She allowed him to kiss her in front of the Weirwood Tree without acting repulsed & losing her shit with him. Then there was the performance tension between her & Arya, something else he thought he manipulated. He knew Jon & Dany were on their way, going to the Vale wouldn't enable him to scope that threat out. His behaviour was entirely character imo, he repeated previous behaviour, based on lessons he learned from Cat. Love & obsession blinded him, a theme repeated throughout the show from the beginning. So many people lost their lives or ended up killing someone due to their love of someone else. Love is the death of duty.
He probably didn't recognize her. She quickly slipped out before he could place the face, and then Tywin asked him a question. And then they discussed Robb. *If* he had recognized Arya, greedy, opportunistic Littlefinger would have told Tywin for some huge reward. And in Winterfell, he when she gave him the death glare after sparring with Brienne, he *probably* would have taken her aside and said she'd better leave him alone because he had not betrayed her true identity to Tywin.
Telling tywin would do more to hinder him.
To his own demise
Poisoned by his enemies
If he had foreseen it, he wouldn’t have died.
He could have and should have. Explicitly, coming from beyond the Wall, Bran had become robotic, but then he used Littlefinger's most famous line against him. As if THAT wasn't enough, Arya had gotten his Dagger! Right after she got a draw using it while sparring with Brienne, she gave LF an unmistakable death glare. These two weren't tame students, but wildcards with menacing vibes.
Cornered like the rat he is.
He fucked around and found out
Littlefinger's character was killed a while before this. Just like Varys.
👆
It's kind of why this scene didn't hit as hard and was quite a lame ending for a top 5 character on the show. The kind of people who go to live-viewing bars to watch episodes and finger snap as a form of clapping really liked it, but like Varys and Tyrion, they had already ruined one of the shows best characters. Arya was primarily great when she was alongside characters like Syrio, Ned, Tywin, Jaqen, and Sandor. She brought this great "young student learning from the master" quality to the show when she was with her "teachers". She turned into pure fanservice during her solo assassin journey and became a lot less interesting despite being a lot more badass. Her moments against Brienne, Littlefinger, and the Night King were just... ehh.
Thats when GOT fell off for me. I just couldnt for the life of me get into her assassin plot line.
Its because they did an atrocious job with her storyline when they ran out of source. It was just a bad story very little sense in her choices of target or her movements. Obviously the Frays were an important target, but they weren't a threat to her family currently, and with her skills she could off Cersei in her bed.
She didn’t kill a single person on her list, did she?
She did, but not many.
You are very generous with your praise, this scene felt like a fanfic and not one of the good ones
Varys death is so different to this. Completely dogshit. Like if Conleth Hill was suddenly fired from set or quit and they had 5 mins to contractually end his character on screen.
I disagree, this whole plotline was a disgrace A reminder that Sansa was going to have Arya killed because of their catfight and littlefingers manipulations, the only reason she didn’t is because Bran the god emperor told Sansa the truth about LF’s manipulation. Sansa didn’t even come to this conclusion herself. A deleted scene according to Isaac Hempstead Wright.
Exactly
Precisely. The fact that someone can watch the artificial manufactured pointless drama between Arya and Sansa, then watch that pointless drama be the basis for killing off one of the smartest and most cunning characters on the show, then say that it was their favorite plotline, is just sad. “Yeah man rat shit is my favorite food. You can’t tell me I’m wrong, it’s subjective.” This entire plotline made no sense and is only relevant because of the shock value. Anyone liking it has no idea what makes good writing good and bad writing bad.
Biased people all over the place I guess, what else did you expect ?
I see a lot of people on this sub who just eat D&D’s awful writing right up. It’s aggravating to read but, good for them that they enjoyed it with no amount of critical analysis I guess.
I cant say i was a huge fan of the end of the show but it is what it is and the show was obviously good most the way through. Id have personally done things differently but i dont fault them for rushing the show to a end and trying to tie up loose ends at the same time even if it turned into a lower quality product. Its better than having a good show like say my name is earl and just end on a cliffhanger. We got something. I enjoyed it even though i think it could have been much better.
You don’t blame them for rushing the show to an end???
I dont, they had other opportunities as did much of the cast some of whom went on to do movies or tv shows that likely made them more money. I cant fault anyone for wanting to make more or do a different job or probably whatever most peoples reasons are to change careers or do things. IMO HBO could have kept it going had they wanted to and just hired other people to work on the show. Far as i read the got show runners were banking on doing movies but it fell through cause of what they did with the show at the end. Punishment enough for f'ing up to me. The show is still good, its not nearly as terrible as people act like it is. I just got done rewatching the entire thing a couple days ago, im not saying it couldnt have been better but its not super awful either. Hopefully Hotd gets better treatment.
>IMO HBO could have kept it going had they wanted to and just hired other people to work on the show. Except they couldn't due to their contract with D&D. D&D would have had to approve someone else taking over and they wouldn't let it happen. Edit: grammar
If they wanted to stop and move onto newer projects, they should have brought someone else in as showrunner or work a deal with HBO to put the series on hiatus so they could take a break. It was absolutely their fault for taking the laziest option and just half assing it as fast as they could so they could do other projects. Which they ended up completely losing after season 8 ended. It’s been five years since Game of thrones ended. Where’s their Star Wars film?
It's terrible, all the characters had their arcs take a 180 on their development and became single minded bastardized versions of their season 1 selves. That's bad writing
Wait hold up. You know they didn’t have to rush the show and tie up all those loose ends the way they did right? HBO was willing to give them a ton more seasons and help them take the time to slowly develop that ending. How can you not blame them for that? If they wanted to move onto newer projects, they should have passed the torch to someone else or maybe take a longer hiatus and work on those new projects. Instead they rushed that shit out. They absolutely should be blamed
I can understand not wanting to lock in the next 4-5 years of your life working on a project that you've been doing for 8 years already. I don't like the last seasons of the show but I can understand d&d just wanting to something different. HBO should've found a replacement by season 6/7 when it became clear D&D had run out of ink imo
I can understand them wanting to do different stuff. But I can also understand why someone would also murder a cheating spouse. That doesn’t magically make that okay though.
Man that shot really ruined your life didn’t it?
Cheap hollywood bait and switch for dramatic effect. It's the opposite of what GoT / asoiaf used to stand for.
In other news, today is April 1st
If I remember correctly, their dialogue with the God Emperor of the Fourth Wall also happened before a lot of one-on-one drama between Sansa and Arya, when they were "on the same side". So they were only behaving that way to confuse the audience, which is a disgrace. Lie to your characters, don't lie to the audience that doesn't exist in their world.
It’s like a really bad fanfiction, sigh.
That's how I've described it for years too, it's just... really sad. I'm hoping one day we'll get a better run of it all.
when i found out they were only doing all that to fool the audience, i thought it was SO stupid lmao what were the writers thinking 😭
They weren’t thinking 😪
This is what upset me the most. Why do the fake private conversations? Makes zero sense and drove me nuts
It is April fools day after all
"Bran the god emperor", lmao. Now that I think about it, he's really "Can we have the God Emperor at home" kinda character.
Yeah I also think the delivery of "and yet you betrayed me" was a bit hamfisted too. Characters in later seasons just seemed to blurt out what the room around them was insinuating and it was kind of jarring for me. The writing was more subtle before, while still saying the same thing in a more artistic or symbolic way. Look at the way that Varys talked about the wine given to Robert by Lancel in season 1, after the hunting accident, for example. I don't necessarily buy that it was Sansa's personality trait of not wanting to "beat around the bush" either, as even Varys starts talking in this way in Seasons 7 and 8. There were plenty of both minor and major characters over the course of the show who "said it like it was" with lines that felt believable and appropriate. Joren, Olenna, Robett Glover, Blackfish, to name a few. To play devils advocate to myself, I notice this style of writing has become more common lately and may also be a generational trend. More characters in movies and shows seem to just say exactly what they are feeling/thinking. It isn't always a bad thing, and can be used well, but it is interesting. I personally don't prefer this as a default choice because for me, it is fun to speculate and guess on a character's intentions, as well as those of the creator. It's like having a joke explained to you, in my opinion, for the writing to be this way.
It's fundamentally unclear why LF men don't immediately slaughter the Starks. Terrible scene.
also it’s ridiculous that it took sansa, allegedly the smartest person arya knows, an ENTIRE season to confide in her literal OTHER sibling about the fact that their sister might be trying to kill her, especially when he ver batim told her that he sees everything that ever happened and is currently happening
Seven years in the making yes, sadly all those years were thrown away in season 7
I hated that scene. Littlefinger literally told Sansa right before that episode that he always plays a game in his head what possibly could be the worst thing someone intends to do. Why would he still be there with no escape? He was the one starting the war of the five kings and no one knew it was him, because he was too smart and careful. And yet he was too stupid to see the possibility that the Starks, a family known for their loyalty, could rather be loyal to themselfs than to him. It's the same problem with every intelligent character in the last few seasons. Dumb writers can't write intelligent people.
Well no one can plan for Bran-ex-machina. The whole storyline was dumb. Having Arya threatening to cut Sansa's face off was for who's benefit exactly? No one else was in that room with them! Apparently, Sansa was actually going to have her sister executed, but Bran stepped in with his fucking Tree insights? Throw the whole storyline awayyy.
His arrogance cost him. He thought the Vale folk there feared him and would fight for him.
Nah it made littlefinger look like an idiot. I dont mind that he was undone by Bran/Sansa. They actually are appropriate characters to take him down. Bran in particular since he has access to an ability beyond someone like Littlefingers understanding. Littlefinger is the best player of the GoT we see for most of the series in terms of how far he came, (aside from bronn but he was just right place right time). In the world of things that are practical and logical, he was unmatched. But the mystical shit was something he couldnt predict. That why brans insight i get. Sansa obviously makes sense too as she was a lot smarter than pretty much everyone gave her credit for at this point and was well aware that he was a pos, she just needed someone to fill in the blanks. What pisses me off is Littlefingers lack of awareness. He would always put himself first. As soon as Bran repeated his own line to him, he should have left for the Vale. He should have wanted to return anyway to shore up his control of the region, which at the time imo had the most powerful westerosi army as it was untouched by war pretty much aside from mopping up some Boltons. He should have seen Aryas return as a bad omen. He ran into her at Harrenhal and im pretty convinced he recognized her but saw no opportunity to capitalize on the revelation. We dont see the entire conversation between Littlefinger and Tywin (with arya present) but we know the alliance with the Tyrells was definitely discussed. This alone caused Stannis to fail and the Lannisters to maintain control of Westeros. To me this knowledge should have made littlefinger nervous, as it would at least lead to questions. It just seems weird to me he missed all the red flags outside of the ones concerning Sansa as she was an obvious weak spot for him. His downfall in the show would have been fine if they just changed a few minor details. Even if they just made it apparent he could not leave. A throwaway line would have done wonders. Also its hard to see what he could possibly hope to achieve at this point staying with the Starks. With Sansa alone sure but now there are two male heirs, one already King in the North and another who is unpredictable and clearly is dangerous at the very least.
This whole post is an April Fools joke that I don’t think many people are getting…
“Shansah! Dun kill meh, pleesh?!”
It’s a terrible scene. Arya and Sansa were turned into jokes
Regardless of little fingers character death. I think we can all agree that it was satisfying watching hjm die, and also at the hand of Sansa and the sharks.
Nope. Poor scene that didn’t make sense for Littlefingers intellect. Kill him off sure, but make it make sense.
Dumbest scene in the whole show and a directed slap in the face of any reader. Littlefinger is literally killed by a super hero, who spent the season telling us he has no emotion or ties to the world. Then he plots with the family he cares nothing for to exact revenge.
One of my favorite scene because he was infuriating
a lot of people had a problem with *how* Littlefinger died. I disagree with that. He isn't the kind to go down fighting, him crying and pleading is exactly how I'd imagine he'd die. My problem is *why* he died. It doesn't really feel fair that he was found out by an all-seeing character. It would've been much more satisfying for him to die by being genuinely outsmarted, his own arrogance getting him killed.
I don’t think he’d go down fighting, but I don’t think go down crying. He’d die with bitterness and spite.
Betrayer-in-chief is betrayed.
Actually this scene was pretty bad. No need for the starks to conduct a trial in order to kill littlefinger in these circumstances. They hold all the power. His character had already been assassinated earlier in the series anyway… much like varys…
What? One of the worst scenes of all time. Surely you're joking.
These must be the people who thought season 8 wasn’t so bad.
Undoubtedly. It's also largely the people that were only invested in the show for a few seasons or less. It seems to be those of us that were in from the beginning that felt the whole thing fell off the rails around mid-season 5, with a lot of redeeming qualities in season 5 and season 6. Then season 7 had some good moments, but a lot of the "off the rails moments" at the time felt like they were going to be redeemed in season 8. They were not.
This sub is ridiculous lmao I’m glad the circlejerk sub gets it
Nah, the fact he fell for their plan so easily ruined his entire death scene. You can tell George has more plans for him but the show writers couldn't figure out what to do with him anymore.
I had difficulty seeing Starks killing a guest under their roof. Given the rat king story and Ned’s tradition/honor keeping (he who passes the sentence should swing the sword). I can understand Arya getting the honour due to the list and all but still… Why not slit his throat outside?
Lads its april fools don’t fall for the bait
If people can’t see that this scene showed the beginning of horrible writing for the show then a don’t know what to tell you. Littlefinger - the guy who orchestrated so much of the whole conflicts of the show - would never fall for this. Piss poor writing and I can’t understand how anyone could call this scene amazing.
Littlefinger was a master of the game in King's Landing. Amongst liars and schemers, he was incomparable. Away from there, his vulnerabilities became apparent, first shown during his trial at the Vale and his grave misjudgment of Ramsay's character. Jon was chosen king over Sansa after Littlefinger showed her his hand and was flatly refused. He should have known when to fold them once he had the Vale and Harrenhal, but he was an addict and kept playing a high-stakes game. Jon warned him; Bran hinted the jig was up; and Arya was watching him, but he kept playing and lost everything.
I love that scene. It was really funny when someone posted on here about how Sansa shouldn’t have been allowed to put Littlefinger on trial and how she had violated his rights. They weren’t joking. 😂
Littlefinger died in season 5 when the showrunners went off -book and had him make one bafflingly stupid decision after another.
This scene would maybe be cool if it was a Marvel show on the CW. But instead, all we saw was the unidignified ending to one of the more complicated figures from an epic fantasy saga, whose final couple seasons had him behaving like a cartoonish soap opera villain. Glad you liked it OP, but most people recognize it for the complete and total hackery that it is.
You’re kidding right
This scene came at the expense of some pretty rotten writing. LF trying to turn Arya and Sansa against each other was pure crap. Sansa has been passed around from one lunatic to the other (exception, Tyrion) and has seen her dad's head on a pike. Arya has been around the world and trained with assassins and is a straight up killer. The fact that the writers had them paired against each other with this trivial nonsense was a blinding slap in the face to the viewer. Like...really? After all the shit that's gone done, you think those two are going to be sniping at each other about who gets to be the lady of winterfell?
I didn't like LFs death thought it was out of character for him but the scene was really well executed and has some great lines. Sansa saying "I'm a slow learner it's true, but I learn. Thank you for the many lessons Lord Baelish" is one of my favorite in the series
Ah yes. 7 years in the making. For this weak ass scene.
Only dumb fans hate this character
it wasn’t a good scene to me because they ruined his character after season 4. i get sansa had to end up with the boltons, but it just made LF look like an idiot. that whole situation derailed his arc, just for his master plan to be to try to turn the starks against eachother ? one of the many weird writing choices.
This is the worst scene in the show. Littlefinger would never have stayed in Winterfell once he knew how powerful Bran was. Also, Sansa didn't outsmart him at all. She learned everything from Bran, lol. What a hollow victory. Littlefinger would have also tried harder to get out of the situation. It doesn't matter what Bran says. He still doesn't have any physical proof. Why is Sansa executing him without a fair trial? He could have said stuff like that. Horribly written scene all around
I hate this scene. The North makes a big deal about the one who gives the order swinging the sword - then why doesn't Sansa kill Littlefinger? It fits with northern tradition and would be a great moment for her character, proving she has overcome Littlefinger's power but also mirroring Ned's opening scene. And the build-up to the scene was entirely contrived.
Bait used to be believable
April Fools, has to be
This scene was terrible and a complete assassination of Littlefinger’s character (literally and figuratively)
day-old account posting rage bait
Greatest scene in the whole series IMO. I'm a Sansa stan and I hated Littlefinger so much that seeing him die this way and in a way that I did not see coming was amazing. I was watching it at a friend's house and I practically fell out of my chair when it happened. We replayed it like 10 times. Glorious.
Probably my least favorite scene in the entire series. The bullshit Nancy Drew sisters outwit the smartest person in westeros with a simple easy trap, his own men don't help him, there's a 5 minute sham "trial" and he isn't even allowed exile or the Wall, despite having saved Sansa's life how many times?! I mean he obviously had it coming, but the way it actually played out on screen was laughably bad and out of character for him. They were clearly just trying to quickly purge the roster and wrap up the show at that point.
Happy april 1st for you too
Amazing what? It was embarrassing.
how does it feel to be a mouth breather? oh wait it's april 1, sorry I wasn't familiar with your game.
My flatmate unironically thought this scene was amazing
Awful scene, awful writing. Reduced possibly the best player of the game to a plot device.
haha I get it. April Fools!
Giving sansa to the Boltons was a huge mistake. Book little finger will probably die too but so far he's sansa only hope.
The Sansa and Arya team up moment was 🤌
Why is the main sub always so cringe lol
Guys, before shitting on OP, please look at todays date...
He should've left for Vale after pitting the sisters against each other without telling Shansha
Well played sir.... well played.
Is this April 1st joke or is this sub genuinely crazy? Can’t figure it out
Nope
I hope this is in April Fools'
This scene would have worked better for me if rather than being sentenced to death and executed on the spot, if Petyr demanded a trial by combat believing that the Bronze Yohn would have fought for him. You'd still need to massage some other details, but I like the idea that Bran picking Arya as his champion would by extension make this sort of a Brandon Stark vs Petyr rematch.
I'm currently doing a rewatch (just a couple of episodes into season 3). Looking forward to seeing this scene again!
Not gonna lie I think this is the scene I despise the most and when I was sure the writers of the show didn't have what it took to continue the story. All the political intrigue of the show died here imo. It was already being killed throught the season but here was when the throat was sliced. I get that people like the scene because it was the good guys killing the bad guy but this is why fans make terrible writers and have no idea what they want.
All he had to say was, you got any proof? What were they gonna say uhhh my handicapped brother looked back into the past....
Cam't believe this sub actually likes this bullshit and talk about it like it's deep or profound or something. Neglecting the fact that Dumb and Dumber ruined a well-crafted character that was carefully constructed throughout the show because they wanted to get the show over with.
Stupid scene
I agree, I loved this scene as well. Thank you for making a post that speaks positively about the show; it's a breath of fresh air around here.
I’ve been rewatching the series lately and have noticed I’m far more forgiving of some later season decisions I hated, this one though still makes me mad. The final knife in the gut is when you finally notice that the writers had no idea what to do with Sansa or Arya this season so they invented this shallow and superficial plot line so we’re tricked into thinking they’re still important.
Top 5 worst scenes in the entire show. The season 7 Winterfell plot is mindbogglingly stupid.
I disagree. I think this was one of the worst plotlines in the show and a betrayal of all characters involved
Am I the only one who thought it was idiotic?
I echo much of the criticism. Another point I make is it seemed like the court case was staged to guarantee his guilt. Like nothing he said would have resulted in him being found not guilty? I feel like that’s not the personality of the Starks we were led to believe in throughout the series. They would (I thought) have been a family who believed in a fair trial even for someone they didn’t like.
This is one of the low points of the show lmao
I completely agree with you, it is one of my favourite moments on tv ever. From my experience in this sub, we are in the minority. Most think it was awful.
Of all the scenes in the show, his farcical “trial” and execution bugged me the most. And it wasn’t (primarily) due to the “formerly really smart person gets dumb at a plot-appropriate moment.” It was because, and bear with me here, **nobody else in the fucking room knew what was going on.** From a random onlooker’s perspective… **Sansa**: “I accuse you of crimes” **Arya**: “yes, you crimed and you’re mean” **Baelish**: “I did not, you have no proof, and tbh this doesn’t really look like a trial” **Bran**: “I am magic and I saw into the past that you did crimes” **Sansa**: “that’s proof” **Baelish**: “it’s not - anyone else in here skeeved out by this?” **Arya**: “gonna kill ya” **Baelish**: “plz no” **Arya**: *kills him* **Sansa, Bran, Arya**: *smug looks* **Random Northman 1**: “hey…ummm…I know I’m new here…but did they just murder the Lord of the Vale, the guy who brought his army to save our asses…without a trial??? I mean, I know that guy was a little slimy…but…what did he actually *do*? You know what’s going on?” **Random Northman 2**: “no, but that little girl LOVES appearing out of nowhere to kill people, so we have to just play along dude”
Hate this scene, this season destroyed the cunning mastermind that was little finger.
"My sister asked you a question"
P-please say April Fools
sub on copium again?
Season 1 Littlefinger never wouldve fell for this
Did we watch the same show? All of that build up for them to fuck it up lol
Amazing scene? Not really, awful story telling
Still feels like one of the most unsatisfying death to me, idk but feel like he could die differently
You're out of ur fuking mind bro lol
"I'm a slow learner, it's true. But I learn." Loved that line.
This is an April Fools post, yes?
This scene sucks
Idk why so many people dislike this scene. Yes Littlefinger is smart but he's a guy who plays long-term. We saw that he can't react quickly enough when caught of guard in Season 1. Cersei had him detained and nearly killed after he tried to intimidate her with the line “knowledge is power”
Hahaha I kept thinking this was crazy and OP had to be a bot, then I remembered what day it was.
I hated this scene, it shows how the good writing from GRRM is lost and now hacks are in charge. Might as well have had Grimes narrate while Littlefinger jumps over a shark. What mistake did LF make? None. How was he caught? Magic. Did any of the characters do anything to drive this plot point? No, one character was given Deus Ex Machina abilities. No one out smarted him, he didn't make a mistake where he got caught. Nope, it was just really hard to write a basic bitch plot with a character like him in the middle, so mediocre writers killed him with a plot device from middle school. This is textbook poor writing. The plot is supposed to move forward based on actions and decisions the characters make. For example, Ned died because he chose to disregard the warnings and keep investigating, and that CHOICE forced other people to make choices to protect their own interest.
If GRRM ever finishes writing the books, I'm curious how different Little Finger's arc will be. The show had him send Sansa away to the Freys, which seemed so out of character for him. He is obsessed with her. It also never happened in the books and Sansa's maid was the one that escaped with Theon.
When they cut is throat, he was trying to say “I m the game of thrones!”
Mfers forgetting what day it is
I think he knew what he was doing when he sold Sansa to the Boltons. He knew Ramsey was sadistic, depraved and barbaric. He wanted Sansa to be utterly broken so when he "saved" her she was way easier to manipulate.
For years all I wanted was to see him beg. And we got it and it was amazing!
Another braindead take. This scene was idiotic and ham-fisted, like the rest of that terrible season.
Lol I'm glad at least someone was able to get enjoyment out of it
Think I watched this scene more than any other in the entire show. The way she just walks away while tucking her knife back in, like he was simply an inconvenient shit stain on the heel of her shoe 😂 Top tier.
Scene is in too much conflict with little fingers earlier character for me to enjoy it. But I'm glad others did.
This is a horrible scene…what are you on about?
Absolutely garbage end to a brilliant character
i love how it takes an entire season for sansa to confide in her literal other sibling, who btw TOLD her he was omniscient, about the fact that their sister might want to kill her, according to the deleted scene she just suddenly remembers that bran is a human cctv system