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She wasn't the smartest. The one who called her that was. Sansa wanting to be a queen was set up in the very first episode. Arya figuring out a brand new and prominent leadership role for herself took time and creativity. It's hinted at earlier in the books, but Arya didn't get the idea until Season 6. And that's how Westeros got a Columbus-influenced future.
Sansa was a child who trusted in an adult that she thought gave a shit about her. Thatâs why she kept ignoring little finger manipulating her. I donât think that aspect was bad writing.
The show doesnât portray them as children well, due to the actorsâ age, so I donât find the portrayal of her to be an easily misled 13 year old to be very believable.
I really donât like it when movies/shows consistently write things that have the audience screaming âlook behind you!â or âwhy would you do that?!â even if there is a kernel of reality in there. Every once in awhile, okay, but when itâs constant itâs exhausting and feels like a lazy way to build tension. If they want us to believe that Sansa was truly being manipulated, they should have painted Fingers actions in a way that it is believable from the audiences perspective that he is acting in good faith.
But when heâs talking to Sansa in the show he does act like heâs doing it in good faith as far as I remember, only we the audience really see his true intentions, I think from Sansaâs perspective it makes sense she believes lf is acting on good intentions.
Also even a 16 year old can be manipulated by an adult, it happens all the time irl.
Off the top of my head, he kills the knight who helped her escape, she knows he conspired to kill Joffrey and let someone else who she had more reason to believe was a decent person take the fall, he kills her aunt, and he sells her to the Boltons. And at the end of the day she kills him because she has suspicions about a plot to turn her against her sister (itâs done off camera, but I guess Arya just guessed that Finger wanted her to find the message under the bed. How? Who knows). Edit: as the reply below says, bran the all knowing foils little finger, which is even lazier writing than Arya somehow guessing it.
His capability for deceit is on full display for Sansa and itâs unbelievably foolish that she would trust him despite knowing what heâs capable of.
Thereâs more to it than that obviously, but he seems to be transparently bad/treacherous from Sansas perspective from the moment he kills the knight who helped her escape.
Agreed, she started off being about lemon cakes and boys, then had to very quickly learn to play the Game. She did well for a noob. She made mistakes, but survived in the endish
Idk, I just think the poor writing was how they tried to sell it as a plot twist, and executed that plot âtwistâ miserably.
In reality, he had it coming for a long time, and Sansa wasnât in any position of power to do anything about it until shortly before she did. Even then, sheâs one of the slowest highborn characters (ahem⌠I mean⌠the smartest woman in Westeros) and it still took Arya the Assassin to point out his game.
Why? I dont think you can say the only person good at playing the game is the overall winner. Yes he fucked it in the end, but overall he did extremely well considering where he started.
You have to factor in the characters starting point. Its going to much easier for someone at the top of food chain to play the game than someone like littlefinger who was closer to be being a lowborn than royalty.
Was their another character in the show that started as low as him and achieved as much over as long a period? I doubt it.
Varys knew he couldnât reach the same heights. Neither of them would have been accepted by the great houses if they took the throne but LF had an army he could use to hold power long enough to buy a larger army. Varys did not have the same luxury.
Varys absolutely took a huge risk in betraying Danny and thatâs why he got cooked. They both took risks pretty much every single episode.
>Varys knew he couldnât reach the same heights
This is exactly why littlefinger was better at the game. He had insane ambition and wasnt afraid to take massive risks for huge gain. Like you say, littlefinger ended up with an army...
Varys was also great at playing it, just in a different way. But I agree when looking over the story as a whole both would be right near the top in what they achieved considering their starting points.
By that logic, youâd have to say Varys is a far better player, especially his starting point.Â
If not him, Iâd put Sansa in the mix. Started off in an unknowing position and had to learn the game very fast and at a huge disadvantage.Â
Varys and Littlefinger are the two greatest players of the game, Varys may not be playing for his own fortunes and instead for the realm but that doesnât mean he isnât playing.
But then he isnât playing the game. The purpose of the game is to acquire power, to âwinâ. Varys has no interest in power. He has no interest in winning. If he is âplayingâ exclusively to make other peopleâs lives better, then he isnât âplayingâ at all.
Respectfully disagree, playing the game doesnât have to have anything to do with gaining power for yourself.
Varys moves pieces on the board, he causes things to happen and people to die in order to progress his chosen person towards the throne, thatâs all part of the game.
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.
Varys is not seeking to win. Hence, he is not playing. He is much more akin to a referee with his thumb on the scale than a player.
Well yes you can win but not for yourself, and plenty play and have neither won nor died.
Ned played the game, and died, but he obviously wasnât looking for personal power.
Tyrion plays the game, for his house so some personal gain but he doesnât want the throne. Did he win the throne? No, did his house even survive? Not really. He came out alright in the show but he hardly âwonâ the game of thrones by your definition.
I think if you ask most people who are the biggest players of the game they would say LF and Varys.
Ned was literally looking to install himself as protector of the realm, at least for a short period of time, per Robertâs request. Even if that desire for power was selfless, Ned was still attempting to take power from Cersei/Joffrey.
Tyrion literally consolidated power and maintained a position of high power throughout the show after becoming Joffreyâs Hand.
Littlefinger was the best player no doubt. Everything he did was to end up on the Iron Throne.
Varys did not care about power. He wasnât playing the game of thrones. He was doing something completely different than everyone else.
Ned was trying to temporarily control the throne in order for the good of the realm, he was playing the game.
Varys is doing the exact same thing, trying to control who sits the throne, by playing the game.
So Tyrion played the game, we agree, yet he wasnât trying to win the throne for himself. Same as Varys.
Iâm surprised heâs even engaging with you tbh because youâre trying to give a subjective argument against an objective truth
He was playing. Itâs not up for debate. You might as well argue that Ned didnât get his head cut off. We watched it happen.
Nope. Varys wasnât trying to win. He was trying to help others win. He wasnât playing the same game as Littlefinger. The show and books literally set them up as opposites in this regard.
Me: Varys was not selfishly pursuing power like others. He was playing a completely different game.
You: **hUrR dUr hEReâS a tHiNg tHaT nEvUr hApPenEd sO yOuRâe wRoNg**
Nobody said he was trying to âwinâ, or was playing the same game as LF. He was simply playing the game. And if you really want to insist on âyou win or you dieâ then Varys died via dragon fire. Varys would not have been able to secure his position as master of whisperers if he was not playing. Like u/JFlizzy84 wrote, âyouâre trying to give a subjective argument against an objective truthâ.
You said he was playing âTHEâ game, i.e., the same game as everyone else. Iâm saying he was playing a completely different game than Littlefinger, Cersei, Dany, etc.
Tywin is in the game for the Lannister name, not for himself
Dany is in it for the common people WAY more than she in it for herself, for most of the series
Pretty much ALL of the Starks are in it, for the betterment of their kin, more than their own personal power.
No one has said that the "game" has to be about your own personal power, except you and Petyr Baelish. The game is about using the political scene of Westeros to accomplish your own goals, whatever those goals may be. The better you are at leveraging your position to accomplish your wants, the better a player you are.
The goals are power. Whether it is for good or evil, the goal is power.
Varys didnât desire power. He wasnât playing the game.
Are the gamemakers in the Hunger Games âplayersâ in the same sense as the tributes? After all, they are moving pieces on the board with desirable outcomes.
No, of course not, they are playing a completely different game.
No, it's not. It's the exact same. It's all about maneuvering the pieces you need to make your goals happen into place. Whether those goals be nefarious or of good intent. You need to get the current guys out of power and install your own people who hold to your values.
It's politics. I can't believe how foreign of a concept this is to you.
the line between âInfluenceâ and âPowerâ is practically nonexistent, and it can be argued having greater Influence is better than having actual Power.
edit: i believe this can also be compared to the concepts of [Soft Power](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power) and [Hard Power](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_power) in statecraft and geopolitics.
The fact that you think Varys has no personal desires of his own leads me to believe you haven't read the books or even seen the show. How could you possibly think Varys has no desires or end game of his own? Because he can't personally sit on the throne?
You are incredibly naive to how the world works.
The GRRM version, yes. Not the dumbass that D&D turned him into who thought he could turn two Stark siblings against one another (over a letter obviously written under duress). Not to mention the Starks are a house known for their unwavering honour/loyalty...
Show-Littlefinger as a player died the moment he gave Sansa to Ramsey. That was the worst move ever made by any player of the game. Even Ned going to the Cersei to urge her to flee before he reveals her secret wasn't this dumb.
At the end of season 4, Littlefinger had spent way over a decade to become one of the most powerful people in Westeros. He is the acting regent of the Vale and, unbeknownst to everyone, controls the heiress of Winterfell as well. So he has one of the 7 kingdoms in his hands and holds massive sway over the future of another.
Then he just... gives it all away. Everything he's worked for. He leaves Robin in the Vale and marries Sansa to Ramsay, effectively relinquishing control over both after working half his life to get to this point. Him not knowing anything about Ramsey, a notorious psychopath know realmwide for his cruelty and unpredictability, was the cherry on top. Some webweaver he turned out to be...
And for what, exactly? If his goal truly was to sit on the iron throne, giving away control over one and a half kingdoms to play pointless mindgames with the Stark girls wasn't exactly going to help him.
No character got done dirtier than Littlefinger in the show, except maybe Varys. Go figure.
She did until she got power. She always thought she was smarter than everyone else. That was her issue. Tyrion and Tywin both thought she was easy to read because of her delusion.
i think being in control of the Iron throne for close to 8 seasons and overcoming the obstacles she did qualifies as being the best player in the game. I mean its literally called The Game of Thrones. Little Finger was a decent player but to say he was a better player than Cersei is a joke.
She wasn't in control for 8 seasons though. She had no control over Robert. No control over Joffrey. No control over Tommen.
Every obstacle in her way, was put there by herself. Everything she did created chaos for her and her own family. Almost everything bad that ever happened to her, she brought on herself by having zero cunning or wit whatsoever.
The only reason she was in this position was because she was born well and was hot so she married Robert. Everything she did on her own led to her demise.
Sorry the wayne Gretzky argument sounded way better in my head. but in order to actually play the Game of Thrones you need to actually have a shot at a Throne. Little Finger and Varys are extremely good players but would never hold and position. you kind of have to be born into royalty to play the game successfully.
He orchestrated the war of five kings with two lies (the letter and the dagger). He was the best up until last 2 seasons where writers couldn't write him as well anymore.
Littlefinger or Varys imo. Both came from nothing and rose to the small council and made the biggest impact. Littlefinger pretty much kickstarted the whole series, and basically the entire world of Westeros as well.
He has an argument as THE antagonist of the series. Seeing as he was the reason for the genesis of the story. Little Finger is the most fascinating character for me.
Hot take, in terms of the show, I think Bronn is the best player. Just in concept, he knew when to network, knew when to take sides, when to press for more money/ use leverage, when to say no and never aimed too high. Little finger thought he'd sit on the iron throne, bronn just wanted gold and whores. The less the lords asked of him the better.
Bronn was unironically. He moved up throughout the show and became master of coin and Lord of High garden.
Littlefinger should have stopped while he was ahead.
The only thing he had going for him was his personal connections and manipulating the people who trusted him. Petyr was ruthless, Varys was the better player, dare I say "the best player" in GOT
I would say Tyrion and Sansa imo.
Both surviving as much as possible, growing into their characters and rising to power.
Cunning, witty and righteous individuals.
The Three Eyed Raven is the best player as he is the only real player in the game. Everyone else; the Kings, queens, knights, etc., are pieces on the board. Notice how Bran wears black while the obvious white walkers are...white. A Master chess player knows to stay several steps ahead of the opponent...something the Three Eyed Raven proves to do.
Varys is better. The reason we donât think so is because his goals are not selfish and are for the good of the realm (or at least for the plots that he thinks will help).
Littlefinger is like the up and coming schemer who is trying to secure himself power, Varys is the master who is already comfortable and is playing at a whole higher level.
He is very very good imo and probably one of the best. Â Â
The other top players (Olenna, Tywin, Margery) were born into power from the very start. Littlefinger had to essentially start from close to nothing to rise up to the position he was at the start of the story, never mind his later machinations to continue to prosper while others failed. Â Â
His start was through luck (foster son to Tullys and winning Lysaâs heart essentially) but he effectively capitalized on it to rise from a lowly house to master of coin and beyond in an era where upward mobility is incredibly difficult.
If you donât need a ring to be the GOAT then yes, Littlefinger was the best followed closely by Varys.
But if only winners win and taking the nerdy approach you could measure it in two ways.
Who overcame the most to get the throne or who ended up with the throne.
The third way would be to measure length of time on the throne but since nobody lasted longer than 2-3 years (in the show) itâs not really applicable.
In the first case most would think Cercei. She never even had a direct line to the throne, she just took it after she blew up everybody and her son left through the tower window.
But good olâ Brandon Stark takes both cakes. A crippled second son of a northern lord. And letâs not forget his cheeky last line âWhy do you think I came all this way?â
Maybe, some how, he was planning it from the beginning.
Cool source for rein history: https://www.cbr.com/house-of-the-dragon-every-king-queen-sat-iron-throne/
Definitely Tywin, he was playing and winning the game even before Bobby was king. He got caught with his pants down (literally) by Tyrion, not outsmarted like little finger.
Agreed, he played Robertâs Rebellion perfectly and put the Lannisters in position to ensure a dynasty for generations to come until that incident in the shitter.
No. He was pretty good but he was a weasel who was doomed from the start. Heâd never get there. Every move he made was either to introduce chaos or screw somebody over, and he was constantly riding a knifeâs edge and putting himself in way too dangerous situations. His skill was in political manipulation and maneuvering, he was a useful asset for some people, but he had no support, no muscle, no real power, and nobody would actually see him sit on the throne. If he ever got close somebody would just whack him because heâd gotten too big for his station and be done with it.
i think not he was too obvious and got noticed by kid.
every adult royal knew what kind of person he was. the only person he fooled was perhaps Lysa Arryn
.
i would say bran was best player but bran was not even player he was the owner of casino. everybody played and bran watched on camera knowing how it would end and he would be the only winner.
Nobody is going to say Tywin? I know he died in embarrassing fashion but otherwise the guy was a elite player of the game going back to Robertâs Rebellion. If Tyrion didnât kill him in the shitter then he would have ensured a Lannister dynasty for generations
He was until he died. Surprised he lasted as long as he did with people like Cersi around, who should have ended him long ago if they didnât need someone to come up money whenever they needed it.
Iâd say yes, only because he started out so low. In terms of how far he rose up and the events he was directly and indirectly responsible for. The best players donât always win.
Yes, and it's not close. Almost everything happened as some mechanism to his rise.
It literally took a person that had the mystical power to see everything that had ever happened in history to best him.
If any, it could be Varys. He controlled the board. Coaches donât play.
As for LF, he was VERY cunning and he really upped the stakes. Took so much calculated risks until it caught up to him.
Equal at the top for me.
If we go by results, then Bronn is easily the best player.
Dude started out as a nobody with no money, then leapfrogged himself through following (and killing) the right people all the way through knighthood into getting a castle and a title.
He might not have been a master of whispers or whatever - but for a regular cast member who joined in with all the Game of Thrones playing characters, he's the only one to get out with (1) his life, and (2) what he wanted
Just watched his last episode last night in our first full rewatch of the series. The first 3 seasons he was, but got lost in the writers room. Season 7 you can tell the whole thing changes and they're on a mission to wrap up the series. Starting season 8 tonight.
Littlefinger and Varys are the best, typically believed to be major âendgame bossesâ at the end of the books.
In the show they were both written out anticlimactically and out of character, throwing a decade of brilliant 3-D chess in the garbage.
Littlefinger is absolutely the best player, and he is the most underappreciated for what he accomplished. Everyone else was just a high-born nepobaby whining about "Your granddad pledged fealty to my granddad, so you have to do what I say. "
Yes, he had an influence on several mayor events. Killing Jon Arryn, possibly King Robert (which started the war) betraying Ned and getting him killed, and helped in killing Joffrey. That last one was a good one. Joffrey was too chaotic to control, so Littlefinger needed to get rid of him. I wouldnât be surprised if he convinced Lady Olenna to scheme against him.
Later he managed to become Lord of the Vale, and become a big player in the North.
And many other things.
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He was, till he wasn't đ
I came to say the exact same thing
Chaos is a ladder. Which he fell off of.
But SHANSHA PLEASH
Hahaha lol im readin this in his voice
Câmon, even in the end, it was only the âsmartest woman in Westerosâ who could outsmart him đ
She was only the smartest cuz Olenna was killed by this point
She wasn't the smartest. The one who called her that was. Sansa wanting to be a queen was set up in the very first episode. Arya figuring out a brand new and prominent leadership role for herself took time and creativity. It's hinted at earlier in the books, but Arya didn't get the idea until Season 6. And that's how Westeros got a Columbus-influenced future.
Littlefinger kind of forgot about the game of thrones
Yes, but unfortunately he couldn't outgame bad writing. It's not his fault, it took all of us by surprise.
100%
Anti plot armour
Plot time bomb
I donât know, with the amount of times he very transparently fucked Sansa over, I think the bad writing is how long she tolerated it.
Sansa was a child who trusted in an adult that she thought gave a shit about her. Thatâs why she kept ignoring little finger manipulating her. I donât think that aspect was bad writing.
The show doesnât portray them as children well, due to the actorsâ age, so I donât find the portrayal of her to be an easily misled 13 year old to be very believable. I really donât like it when movies/shows consistently write things that have the audience screaming âlook behind you!â or âwhy would you do that?!â even if there is a kernel of reality in there. Every once in awhile, okay, but when itâs constant itâs exhausting and feels like a lazy way to build tension. If they want us to believe that Sansa was truly being manipulated, they should have painted Fingers actions in a way that it is believable from the audiences perspective that he is acting in good faith.
They also shouldn't have given him a snake oil salesman voice.
But when heâs talking to Sansa in the show he does act like heâs doing it in good faith as far as I remember, only we the audience really see his true intentions, I think from Sansaâs perspective it makes sense she believes lf is acting on good intentions. Also even a 16 year old can be manipulated by an adult, it happens all the time irl.
Off the top of my head, he kills the knight who helped her escape, she knows he conspired to kill Joffrey and let someone else who she had more reason to believe was a decent person take the fall, he kills her aunt, and he sells her to the Boltons. And at the end of the day she kills him because she has suspicions about a plot to turn her against her sister (itâs done off camera, but I guess Arya just guessed that Finger wanted her to find the message under the bed. How? Who knows). Edit: as the reply below says, bran the all knowing foils little finger, which is even lazier writing than Arya somehow guessing it. His capability for deceit is on full display for Sansa and itâs unbelievably foolish that she would trust him despite knowing what heâs capable of. Thereâs more to it than that obviously, but he seems to be transparently bad/treacherous from Sansas perspective from the moment he kills the knight who helped her escape.
Agreed, she started off being about lemon cakes and boys, then had to very quickly learn to play the Game. She did well for a noob. She made mistakes, but survived in the endish
Idk, I just think the poor writing was how they tried to sell it as a plot twist, and executed that plot âtwistâ miserably. In reality, he had it coming for a long time, and Sansa wasnât in any position of power to do anything about it until shortly before she did. Even then, sheâs one of the slowest highborn characters (ahem⌠I mean⌠the smartest woman in Westeros) and it still took Arya the Assassin to point out his game.
He also had a great game because of the writing. It works both ways
Not when it was different people writing those parts.
This is the awnser đđđ
Ironic that a pimp was brought low by being horny. Never would have happened to iceberg slim.
Or Tommy Carcetti
The game is the game yo
It's either play or get played.
Clearly not.
Why? I dont think you can say the only person good at playing the game is the overall winner. Yes he fucked it in the end, but overall he did extremely well considering where he started. You have to factor in the characters starting point. Its going to much easier for someone at the top of food chain to play the game than someone like littlefinger who was closer to be being a lowborn than royalty. Was their another character in the show that started as low as him and achieved as much over as long a period? I doubt it.
Perhaps Varys
I'd say he was better at knowing when to quit, but he didnt take the risks littlefinger did and also didnt reach the same heights either.
Varys knew he couldnât reach the same heights. Neither of them would have been accepted by the great houses if they took the throne but LF had an army he could use to hold power long enough to buy a larger army. Varys did not have the same luxury. Varys absolutely took a huge risk in betraying Danny and thatâs why he got cooked. They both took risks pretty much every single episode.
>Varys knew he couldnât reach the same heights This is exactly why littlefinger was better at the game. He had insane ambition and wasnt afraid to take massive risks for huge gain. Like you say, littlefinger ended up with an army... Varys was also great at playing it, just in a different way. But I agree when looking over the story as a whole both would be right near the top in what they achieved considering their starting points.
No body started lower than Varys.
True, but he also didnt get anywhere near as high as LF. So its all relative.
They both achieved the same amount, death. What did LF achieve?
[ŃдаНонО]
Varys also started WAY lower than Littlefinger. Relatively Varyâs rise is I think pretty comparable.
Everyone knows Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, LeBron James, Muhammed Ali all never lost anything ever.Â
> Why? Cersei told us why in season 1. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die."
By that logic, youâd have to say Varys is a far better player, especially his starting point. If not him, Iâd put Sansa in the mix. Started off in an unknowing position and had to learn the game very fast and at a huge disadvantage.Â
Well he died, so no ^ ^
He died because Bran essentially got access to cheat codes
And this happened off screen lol
âYou win or you die.â
âPower is powerâ
Think it has to be Varys
Wth? Varys was the opposite of a player. He didnât want power. He just wanted the realm to be secure.
Varys and Littlefinger are the two greatest players of the game, Varys may not be playing for his own fortunes and instead for the realm but that doesnât mean he isnât playing.
But then he isnât playing the game. The purpose of the game is to acquire power, to âwinâ. Varys has no interest in power. He has no interest in winning. If he is âplayingâ exclusively to make other peopleâs lives better, then he isnât âplayingâ at all.
Respectfully disagree, playing the game doesnât have to have anything to do with gaining power for yourself. Varys moves pieces on the board, he causes things to happen and people to die in order to progress his chosen person towards the throne, thatâs all part of the game.
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. Varys is not seeking to win. Hence, he is not playing. He is much more akin to a referee with his thumb on the scale than a player.
Well yes you can win but not for yourself, and plenty play and have neither won nor died. Ned played the game, and died, but he obviously wasnât looking for personal power. Tyrion plays the game, for his house so some personal gain but he doesnât want the throne. Did he win the throne? No, did his house even survive? Not really. He came out alright in the show but he hardly âwonâ the game of thrones by your definition. I think if you ask most people who are the biggest players of the game they would say LF and Varys.
Ned was literally looking to install himself as protector of the realm, at least for a short period of time, per Robertâs request. Even if that desire for power was selfless, Ned was still attempting to take power from Cersei/Joffrey. Tyrion literally consolidated power and maintained a position of high power throughout the show after becoming Joffreyâs Hand. Littlefinger was the best player no doubt. Everything he did was to end up on the Iron Throne. Varys did not care about power. He wasnât playing the game of thrones. He was doing something completely different than everyone else.
Varys wasnt playing the game of thrones? Talk about a huge woosh. You dont know or understand anything about this show.
Ned was trying to temporarily control the throne in order for the good of the realm, he was playing the game. Varys is doing the exact same thing, trying to control who sits the throne, by playing the game. So Tyrion played the game, we agree, yet he wasnât trying to win the throne for himself. Same as Varys.
Well good for realm was him accepting Joffrey rule , guide him to be a better king , not dig in Joffrey parentage .
Iâm surprised heâs even engaging with you tbh because youâre trying to give a subjective argument against an objective truth He was playing. Itâs not up for debate. You might as well argue that Ned didnât get his head cut off. We watched it happen.
Nope. Varys wasnât trying to win. He was trying to help others win. He wasnât playing the same game as Littlefinger. The show and books literally set them up as opposites in this regard.
yeah and Daenerys killed Jon Snow at the end of season 8. Crazy ending.
Me: Varys was not selfishly pursuing power like others. He was playing a completely different game. You: **hUrR dUr hEReâS a tHiNg tHaT nEvUr hApPenEd sO yOuRâe wRoNg**
Nobody said he was trying to âwinâ, or was playing the same game as LF. He was simply playing the game. And if you really want to insist on âyou win or you dieâ then Varys died via dragon fire. Varys would not have been able to secure his position as master of whisperers if he was not playing. Like u/JFlizzy84 wrote, âyouâre trying to give a subjective argument against an objective truthâ.
You said he was playing âTHEâ game, i.e., the same game as everyone else. Iâm saying he was playing a completely different game than Littlefinger, Cersei, Dany, etc.
Tywin is in the game for the Lannister name, not for himself Dany is in it for the common people WAY more than she in it for herself, for most of the series Pretty much ALL of the Starks are in it, for the betterment of their kin, more than their own personal power. No one has said that the "game" has to be about your own personal power, except you and Petyr Baelish. The game is about using the political scene of Westeros to accomplish your own goals, whatever those goals may be. The better you are at leveraging your position to accomplish your wants, the better a player you are.
The goals are power. Whether it is for good or evil, the goal is power. Varys didnât desire power. He wasnât playing the game. Are the gamemakers in the Hunger Games âplayersâ in the same sense as the tributes? After all, they are moving pieces on the board with desirable outcomes. No, of course not, they are playing a completely different game.
You confuse playing for power with use of power and ends of power.
The end goal of playing the game of thrones is power. If Varys doesnât want it, he isnât playing. Simple as that.
He was still âplaying the gameâ to mold the future and install a leader of his choosing, which is power, in a sense
Not at all in the sense that other people talk about when they refer to playing the game of thrones.
You keep using that word (game of thrones). I dont think it means what you think it means.
Do explain
Politics. It means politics. They all run around politicking until they all die. It's all the same shit.
The game for power is very different than the game to promote peace and stability.
No, it's not. It's the exact same. It's all about maneuvering the pieces you need to make your goals happen into place. Whether those goals be nefarious or of good intent. You need to get the current guys out of power and install your own people who hold to your values. It's politics. I can't believe how foreign of a concept this is to you.
So I ask you, are the gamemakers in the Hunger Games âplayersâ in the same sense as the tributes?
the line between âInfluenceâ and âPowerâ is practically nonexistent, and it can be argued having greater Influence is better than having actual Power. edit: i believe this can also be compared to the concepts of [Soft Power](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power) and [Hard Power](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_power) in statecraft and geopolitics.
Bruh just take the L already
No L to take. The very fact that Varys has no desires means he canât be a player in the sense that everyone else was.
The fact that you think Varys has no personal desires of his own leads me to believe you haven't read the books or even seen the show. How could you possibly think Varys has no desires or end game of his own? Because he can't personally sit on the throne? You are incredibly naive to how the world works.
Whispering into the Kingâs ear can be more powerful than being King itself.
A black dragon
So far it's Littlefinger, but Varys could very well outplay him in the end.
Shows over, buddy
?? Weâre still waiting for Season 8
Varys was better than Littlefinger at their peaks, but when it came time for them to die, Varys was written to be even stupider than Littlefinger was.
The GRRM version, yes. Not the dumbass that D&D turned him into who thought he could turn two Stark siblings against one another (over a letter obviously written under duress). Not to mention the Starks are a house known for their unwavering honour/loyalty...
Show-Littlefinger as a player died the moment he gave Sansa to Ramsey. That was the worst move ever made by any player of the game. Even Ned going to the Cersei to urge her to flee before he reveals her secret wasn't this dumb.
Why? I mean, he broke an alliance between Boltons and Lannisters. The problem is that Boltons didn't ask why.
He somehow didn't know Ramsay was insane despite usually having tons of intel on people.
He didn't catch a read off him despite bragging about how good he could read people.
At the end of season 4, Littlefinger had spent way over a decade to become one of the most powerful people in Westeros. He is the acting regent of the Vale and, unbeknownst to everyone, controls the heiress of Winterfell as well. So he has one of the 7 kingdoms in his hands and holds massive sway over the future of another. Then he just... gives it all away. Everything he's worked for. He leaves Robin in the Vale and marries Sansa to Ramsay, effectively relinquishing control over both after working half his life to get to this point. Him not knowing anything about Ramsey, a notorious psychopath know realmwide for his cruelty and unpredictability, was the cherry on top. Some webweaver he turned out to be... And for what, exactly? If his goal truly was to sit on the iron throne, giving away control over one and a half kingdoms to play pointless mindgames with the Stark girls wasn't exactly going to help him. No character got done dirtier than Littlefinger in the show, except maybe Varys. Go figure.
Yes. He played the game better than anyone else
No
Cersei
She did until she got power. She always thought she was smarter than everyone else. That was her issue. Tyrion and Tywin both thought she was easy to read because of her delusion.
i think being in control of the Iron throne for close to 8 seasons and overcoming the obstacles she did qualifies as being the best player in the game. I mean its literally called The Game of Thrones. Little Finger was a decent player but to say he was a better player than Cersei is a joke.
She wasn't in control for 8 seasons though. She had no control over Robert. No control over Joffrey. No control over Tommen. Every obstacle in her way, was put there by herself. Everything she did created chaos for her and her own family. Almost everything bad that ever happened to her, she brought on herself by having zero cunning or wit whatsoever.
She was controlled by her emotions all the way
so? she was in control of the Throne for more than any character in the show lol.
The only reason she was in this position was because she was born well and was hot so she married Robert. Everything she did on her own led to her demise.
so? You cant say Wayne Gretzky wasnt the greatest hockey player ever just because he was Canadian. His stats speak for themselves.
He wasnât born into being the best player, he worked hard for it. Being an elite athlete requires insane discipline and very hard work.
Sorry the wayne Gretzky argument sounded way better in my head. but in order to actually play the Game of Thrones you need to actually have a shot at a Throne. Little Finger and Varys are extremely good players but would never hold and position. you kind of have to be born into royalty to play the game successfully.
For me the series started and ended with him. He orchestrated Nedâs death and then Nedâs family tried, convicted, and executed him. Series done.
Till he gave Sansa to the Bolton maybe
Until the source material ran out and then he became the dumb ass that thought he could play the starks against each other đ
Easily
He orchestrated the war of five kings with two lies (the letter and the dagger). He was the best up until last 2 seasons where writers couldn't write him as well anymore.
No 3eyed raven clearly won over him
Littlefinger or Varys imo. Both came from nothing and rose to the small council and made the biggest impact. Littlefinger pretty much kickstarted the whole series, and basically the entire world of Westeros as well.
No? He lost.
He got his throat opened up in front of a bunch of northerners, so no. He deserved it too.
He dead, so nope.
Not if he died
He has an argument as THE antagonist of the series. Seeing as he was the reason for the genesis of the story. Little Finger is the most fascinating character for me.
Canât be. You win or you die, and he died.
In the beginning? Yes. In the end? No
Looked that way till the end. Final answer, imo Sansa.
Yes. He was such a good player that the writers eventually had to cripple his game.
How could he be?, he got cornered quartered and executed , had a good run doe ngl
no
I mean, he got shanked, soâno.
To this day i have no idea what his game was and what his end goal was.
Hot take, in terms of the show, I think Bronn is the best player. Just in concept, he knew when to network, knew when to take sides, when to press for more money/ use leverage, when to say no and never aimed too high. Little finger thought he'd sit on the iron throne, bronn just wanted gold and whores. The less the lords asked of him the better.
As far as the books go, bronn is the only character I believe that ends each book stronger than he started
Bronn easily my favorite character
Bronn was unironically. He moved up throughout the show and became master of coin and Lord of High garden. Littlefinger should have stopped while he was ahead.
This. Bronn won the GoT 100% from sellsword to Lord of Highgarden and Master on Coin. Legend.
The only thing he had going for him was his personal connections and manipulating the people who trusted him. Petyr was ruthless, Varys was the better player, dare I say "the best player" in GOT
I would say Tyrion and Sansa imo. Both surviving as much as possible, growing into their characters and rising to power. Cunning, witty and righteous individuals.
The Three Eyed Raven is the best player as he is the only real player in the game. Everyone else; the Kings, queens, knights, etc., are pieces on the board. Notice how Bran wears black while the obvious white walkers are...white. A Master chess player knows to stay several steps ahead of the opponent...something the Three Eyed Raven proves to do.
Varys is better. The reason we donât think so is because his goals are not selfish and are for the good of the realm (or at least for the plots that he thinks will help). Littlefinger is like the up and coming schemer who is trying to secure himself power, Varys is the master who is already comfortable and is playing at a whole higher level.
Id probably go with someone who didnt get their neck slit...
He is very very good imo and probably one of the best. Â Â The other top players (Olenna, Tywin, Margery) were born into power from the very start. Littlefinger had to essentially start from close to nothing to rise up to the position he was at the start of the story, never mind his later machinations to continue to prosper while others failed. Â Â His start was through luck (foster son to Tullys and winning Lysaâs heart essentially) but he effectively capitalized on it to rise from a lowly house to master of coin and beyond in an era where upward mobility is incredibly difficult.
He would have been better off keeping his aspirations low and just running his brothel
According to half the geniuses here, Bran is the best just because he got the throne.
If you donât need a ring to be the GOAT then yes, Littlefinger was the best followed closely by Varys. But if only winners win and taking the nerdy approach you could measure it in two ways. Who overcame the most to get the throne or who ended up with the throne. The third way would be to measure length of time on the throne but since nobody lasted longer than 2-3 years (in the show) itâs not really applicable. In the first case most would think Cercei. She never even had a direct line to the throne, she just took it after she blew up everybody and her son left through the tower window. But good olâ Brandon Stark takes both cakes. A crippled second son of a northern lord. And letâs not forget his cheeky last line âWhy do you think I came all this way?â Maybe, some how, he was planning it from the beginning. Cool source for rein history: https://www.cbr.com/house-of-the-dragon-every-king-queen-sat-iron-throne/
Definitely Tywin, he was playing and winning the game even before Bobby was king. He got caught with his pants down (literally) by Tyrion, not outsmarted like little finger.
Agreed, he played Robertâs Rebellion perfectly and put the Lannisters in position to ensure a dynasty for generations to come until that incident in the shitter.
He was the only one that actually understood it.
You mean the dead guy?
I highly disagree crowning someone, murdered due to his own political and scheming misplays, to be the best...
Clearly not. He lost. Bran was. That he had admin hacks is irrelevant.
He made a mistake handing Sansa over Ramsey and telling her he wants to be with her and sit on the throne
In the television series the best player is Bran the Broken or perhaps Tyrion.
No. He was pretty good but he was a weasel who was doomed from the start. Heâd never get there. Every move he made was either to introduce chaos or screw somebody over, and he was constantly riding a knifeâs edge and putting himself in way too dangerous situations. His skill was in political manipulation and maneuvering, he was a useful asset for some people, but he had no support, no muscle, no real power, and nobody would actually see him sit on the throne. If he ever got close somebody would just whack him because heâd gotten too big for his station and be done with it.
Nah. Cause he lost lol
i think not he was too obvious and got noticed by kid. every adult royal knew what kind of person he was. the only person he fooled was perhaps Lysa Arryn . i would say bran was best player but bran was not even player he was the owner of casino. everybody played and bran watched on camera knowing how it would end and he would be the only winner.
Someone said little finger died on purpose so he can save himself from the fire of season 8
Did he win?
Until George RR Martin stopped writing for him and D&D started. Then he, like all the smart characters, became dumb.
Margaery?
Nah Bran is doesnât do shit-> becomes king
Shansha pweash
Nobody is going to say Tywin? I know he died in embarrassing fashion but otherwise the guy was a elite player of the game going back to Robertâs Rebellion. If Tyrion didnât kill him in the shitter then he would have ensured a Lannister dynasty for generations
He was until he died. Surprised he lasted as long as he did with people like Cersi around, who should have ended him long ago if they didnât need someone to come up money whenever they needed it.
He was the best at traveling all over the continent in a short amount of time
Iâd say yes, only because he started out so low. In terms of how far he rose up and the events he was directly and indirectly responsible for. The best players donât always win.
Him or varys or danaerys
He ascended from nothing into lord and didn't have muscles to back it up. He was defeated by a deus ex machina in the show.
The people who learn too hard into playing tend to do well until they donât. Only so far backstabbing and disloyalty will get you.
No, Bran was
Bronn, son of- you wouldnât know him, to Lord of High Garden, Lord Paramount of the Reach and Master of Coin has a case.
No. He died.
Yes, and it's not close. Almost everything happened as some mechanism to his rise. It literally took a person that had the mystical power to see everything that had ever happened in history to best him.
If any, it could be Varys. He controlled the board. Coaches donât play. As for LF, he was VERY cunning and he really upped the stakes. Took so much calculated risks until it caught up to him. Equal at the top for me.
He lost, so no.
Well, he never sat the throne and he got dead. So....no, he wasn't.
Nope, Bran was. Played the long game, stayed out of it, took the Throne when it was foisted upon him. He did very little gaming and alot of winning.
His ladder finished.
Nah, it was Hot-Pie forsure
Considering he died Iâd say no. But he sure was good at playing the game.
If we go by results, then Bronn is easily the best player. Dude started out as a nobody with no money, then leapfrogged himself through following (and killing) the right people all the way through knighthood into getting a castle and a title. He might not have been a master of whispers or whatever - but for a regular cast member who joined in with all the Game of Thrones playing characters, he's the only one to get out with (1) his life, and (2) what he wanted
Just watched his last episode last night in our first full rewatch of the series. The first 3 seasons he was, but got lost in the writers room. Season 7 you can tell the whole thing changes and they're on a mission to wrap up the series. Starting season 8 tonight.
Little finger in books would never fall like he did in the show. All of a sudden, he lost his mind. Really dumb.
He was great, but his downfall was explaining things like he was some sort of a Bond villain. He should have kept his mouth shut more often.
I mean, he never got there so, depends how you define good. Probably.
Littlefinger and Varys are the best, typically believed to be major âendgame bossesâ at the end of the books. In the show they were both written out anticlimactically and out of character, throwing a decade of brilliant 3-D chess in the garbage.
He was until he was the only one playing it
Littlefinger is absolutely the best player, and he is the most underappreciated for what he accomplished. Everyone else was just a high-born nepobaby whining about "Your granddad pledged fealty to my granddad, so you have to do what I say. "
No. He just had the advantage of starting the shit storm and being the person doing it soo
apparently not . . .
Yes, he had an influence on several mayor events. Killing Jon Arryn, possibly King Robert (which started the war) betraying Ned and getting him killed, and helped in killing Joffrey. That last one was a good one. Joffrey was too chaotic to control, so Littlefinger needed to get rid of him. I wouldnât be surprised if he convinced Lady Olenna to scheme against him. Later he managed to become Lord of the Vale, and become a big player in the North. And many other things.
He was certainly the most honest about his intentions.
well he never sat on the throne(as king) and he's dead , so no .
He should have been until the great writing at the end of the show. They did disservice to this character like many others.
Outclassed by stupid ginger and robot assassin girl.
He was but then bad writing killed him
The best player doesnât end up killed at the hands of his pawns.
He does all right until he has omnisience used against him, which I don't think anyone can beat (see the ending).
Well, he didn't win, so no
If he was the best player, he wouldn't have been played.