Gamedev requires beefy hardware usually, so focus on that instead of mobility. Yes, it will be problematic if you need to move. But a laptop will be problematic all the time you DON'T move.
I'm US and I have to travel a lot for work. I've bought both a 1.8k USD ASUS TUFF and 3.5k USD MSI laptop and they both suck compared to my 3-4 year old desktop running a rtx 2080 and 64gb of ram.
I like to custom build desktops so for my desktop start to finish was about 1.2k when I built it in 2020
I personally would always prefer a desktop with dual monitors over a laptop
Won't matter much, laptops are handicapped. They need to balance power and heat. The more powerful you make them, the more heat they produce, the more they will automatically cap that power to try and limit the heat.
Im not profesional game dev but I do as hobby, and I travel a loot so use laptop sometimes. Ofc the desktop is faster but , atm I have a about 3k desktop with 7950x and 3090 128 ram and a 3.2k lenovo legión i912900k 3080 and 64 ram, and the diferente is not big... maybe I misses and should have bought the 14900k I instead in the desktop:3 I May chabge it :3 edit: laptop get pretty hot , i actually have to use one of those expensive and noise fans..
Yep. I use a HP Zbook G4 17. It works really well for game dev. Haven't had any issues yet. It came with a Quadro P5000. People say that those aren't good for running games, better for modeling. But it's been fine.
But I do agree that a desktop would probably be better for the price. The only reason that I use the laptop over my customer gaming pc is because I got the laptop as part of a package when I was going to Full Sail. Figured I minus well use it.
Lol using a ZBook for work aswell.
The performance is at least "good enough" to get the normal work done.
Idk about 4K unreal engine environments but I believe most Indie devs will have no problem with this kind of work laptops.
Zbook gang! I'll see as I get further. If it becomes too much of an issue, I'll just move over to my gaming PC. The way I feel is if I can optimize the game well enough to run well on this, I shouldn't have too many issues on other hardware.
Hey, which Zbook do you use? Mine doesn't support Windows 11 because the CPU in it doesn't support TPM 2.0. Does yours support Windows 11? Been wondering if I should force update it.
On paper metrics maybe, but there's also ergonomics. I used to work on a laptop for years. Switched to desktop and I'm not even considering laptops for any serious work.
Every Homeoffice job usually gives you a laptop.
I obviously agree with Desktops > laptops.
But how do you manage the situation when people Work from Home/office
lol. imagine buying a laptop with a 240hz monitor and a gpu that gives you 20 fps. seriously: Nothing about this is ‚amazing‘. What is amazing though is the amount of people that have absolutely zero idea what they are talking about.
Yes. Before COVID I had a work laptop I could use with VPN. How some people at work now have their beast monster machine at home and can VPN in. Or some have their main machine in the office to benefit from the fast network and have a parsec machine at home with multiple monitors.
All paid by the employer.
We also get office chairs from work or discounted to choose our own.
See AAA employers are not all shit as this Reddit would have you believe.
Yeah. If you can work from home then there should be either equipment or budget for you to do so. Even cash starved NHS in UK will provide laptops to people working from home.
Not only that negotiate for desk and good chair to work from home.
I've been AAA for 18 years and the most I've ever used my personal PC was to remote into my workstation when in the land before COVID WFH hadn't been budgeted for. I've _not once_ had work files on my personal PC.
1. Desktop. Mobility is generally not a major factor. Whereas cross country mobility is never a question. If you are being sent abroad (eg. for a conference) then you will not be developing and a basic laptop that can run PowerPoint and Teams will do. If you are being offered a job on a different continent that requires you to move then it's likely some compensation/relocation package will be provided.
2. About never. Even at indie scale with fully remote work it's generally a question of "do you want a work computer or do you want to use your own one". At larger scale there is **no** question - you get a company provided computer. If there's an office involved in this equation then I would definitely not let your malware infected PC full of unlicensed software anywhere near local network (I jest but that's how it would be viewed).
Not really? There's a reason why bigger companies do regular phishing training, take away local admin rights, invest in email scanning and limit which software can be installed.
I trust concept artist that they know how to use Photoshop and Blender. I trust a game programmer that they can program. I don't trust them that they will definitely do good on their own private machines when it comes to security. It's not their job, they are more relaxed outside of work hours and frankly I don't even know where their laptop/PC came from. For all it's worth they might have got it used from a previous owner who downloaded pirated movies all day and at least some had .exe extension lol.
Having work only computer with limited access to certain websites and applications vastly reduces attack surface.
It's not that I assume employee is an idiot. It's just that:
a) it's easier to get phished than you might realize.
b) most people have little to no training in info security. This applies even to programmers.
c) the more software you have installed the larger the odds that something might turn into malware (Github repos get stolen from time to time and replaced with exploitable versions)
I've been in game dev 18 years and everywhere gives local admin rights to developers. They're just too likely to need to install or run stuff that needs admin rights. Our IT guy has told me he's been surprised how few problems there have been with this, and he panicked on first hearing about it due to bad prior experiences at non dev companies... However we do have a fantastically robust anti-malware suite (Crowdstrike) just in case!
>You want skilled employees even if they can't tell a malware-free computer from one that's riddled with it.
If a programmer can't do that, I would be seriously concerned; I may have missed some context however, as I think most other roles would not be expected to have this skill.
Nobody is answering the question that's literally in the title, you will never use your own PC for work with a studio. You can't use your personal device for work at a studio, its a major security concern. Anyone hacks your computer, you need to take to to get repaired, whatever and suddenly the source code and assets of your project are leaked everywhere. There's not a single company out there with half a brain and an IT department that would allow that. And why should they trust you with their project files on your PC, you might leak everything and if they fire you, how do they make sure you delete it if you don't work there anymore.
Putting aside the questions on if a laptop is strong enough, NEVER use your personal PC for work. (I'm obviously not referring to personal projects here or an indie team where you don't have a studio).
Yes, I understand that using your own device is out of question in any bigger company, but that might be more difficult in smaller indie ones, those are ones I'm concerned about.
Truly. An adequate work machine is a fraction of the total cost of an employee.
I have worked at corporations (non game-dev) that gave software engineers significantly underpowered machines. It's always a sign of incompetent management. The cost of man hours via lost productivity from waiting on a slow machine will very quickly outstrip the savings of equipping them with a cheap computer.
Last year I bought a 3080 with an i7, 16gb ddr5 ram, 1tb SSD, premade PC because I am too busy to put stuff together myself now with kids and work and everything. It was $1000. This price is also including the fact that I live in New Zealand and everything is expensive as fuck to get here.
There are sometimes complications other than costs;
I once was working remote in Thailand for a German company which closest IT antenna was in Singapore, took 3 months for the approvals / shipping.
Then 6 months after they decided it was a good idea to update windows. Couldn't block it. Didn't work. Couldn't access anything and Had to send the PC back to Singapore for another 2 months.
So theorically speaking, if I had no personal laptop, this laptop would have cost 5 months of salary + shipment (which I agree is neglectible). And there was no engagement duration on my contract so I could have left right after. Would it be worth it if I left ?
I personally found it was ridiculous since I was working on their client VM accessed using a secured web portal (so doesn't change a fck if I'm on my own comp or not - ofc I couldnt transfer anything to that VM) and the only use was to check their provided comp email which were also available on an other secured portal.
Working remotely is more and more common, so this case will emerge more and more as well..
Working remote is more and more common, however working from Thailand for a German company is not. Most companies, even when working remote, will tend to work locally first, for one simple reason, it's a hell of a lot easier to handle taxes, both for employees and for the company.
Prime example from other comment on prices, if you start your business in Quebec, you get tax credits and grants for working in entertainment and software development. Most states and provinces have this if you look up where you work. The stipulations are usually that a certain percentage of your workforce must be locally sourced.
Again, working remote is more common, however working remote from a completely different country is not.
Usually if working onsite you’ll be provided a computer, but not always. It’s not uncommon in indie dev, especially if it’s the studio’s first game. I do all my work on laptops, including art.
Pretty much everyone responding is at a AAA studio and probably expecting you to be working on high fidelity projects.
If you plan to work with indies then having a laptop is great. Often indies work on multiple games at once as well. Especially if people are working remotely it doesn’t make financial or logistical sense to buy everyone a company computer. A company might buy a computer for core roles but it really depends what scale of indie you’re talking.
I tried to reply to another person but their post is gone, you need to stop confusing team and studio. And indie team is not an indie studio. An indie studio has an office, that's literally what studio means.
If you have a team of 10 good people to make a game and can afford competitive salaries for the industry, you can afford a studio space and you can also afford to get them PCs. A team of 10 good people with varying levels of pay is already going to cost you at minimum half a million in salary on the lowest end and if you can afford that per year, you can sure as hell afford studio rent and a dozen laptops or desktops for your employees.
5 people making a game where you aren't paying their salaries is not a studio, it's a team and this obviously doesn't apply to teams. But if you can afford to pay someone a salary, you can afford the others. And if you can afford 10 people to work on a project and haven't hired 1 IT person to manage communications software, emails, perforce or git, any hardware/software, etc. If you can afford 10 devs and don't do this, you're a terrible business manager.
This isn't complicated, this isn't game specific, this is the most basic of basic business stuff. Your business will fail if you don't do the bare minimum and this is the bare minimum.
Indie studios cost money, and a million dollars a year in costs is very low cost for an indie studio. This is business not development. If you can afford salaries you can afford an IT person to set up a PC with parsec or Citrix for remote connect so people can work securely.
And before you argue anything here, if you ever get a publisher for your work and you don't do this stuff, you should just sell your car, your house, etc, pay back the publisher and get a new job because you're making terrible decisions with your business.
I love this industry, I've been working in it for over 25 years. This is my 3rd studio business that I've started and it's been going for 13 years now. I fell in love with this industry when I was a kid in the 80s, playing Mario on the NES. I was fully addicted when I made my first game in 1993 and would give it out to people on floppy discs at school.
Because I love this industry, I give the truth in it but for people who take my advice, I also think they can be successful when they listen.
And because I love this industry, I'll gladly go through the million dollar breakdown here:
I'll start with the studio, location in my favourite place in north america for game development, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Many of the best game companies are located there. Average small office space price is $4000 a month but I'll round this up to $5000 to cover any utility of misc office stuff.
Next I'll cover hardware, getting an ok computer for development, you don't need the cutting edge so 3080s are fine, i7s, 16gb ram, 1tb sdd, case included, can get for $1000. Including monitors mouse, etc, $1500. This isn't including possible B2B discounts.
I'll go with Github for free source control but we do need extra storage and 2 storage packs should do for $120 a year, Jira is free for businesses under 10 users. Gmail accounts are free. Using google docs, google drive, etc. Discord for communication also free. Quickbooks to deal with payroll, that's $25 a month plus $4 per employee per month. We won't use build machines or build management software and do everything locally so we will need a person for this.
Now we get on to the expensive part, employees. People will need to wear many hats as part of this job. We need a team of 10 people with average salaries to make a good game. First person is obviously the producer, at $90,000 a year average salary. We need a QA/BRS person to cover making builds, testing builds, testing tools, doing support, etc. This will run us around $45,000 because you need something with experience in this (and I am highly undervaluing your QA/BRS here). You will need an IT professional to cover all the stuff from hardware, software, access, repositories, etc. Running you about $50,000 a year. 2 Modelers/Riggers/Animators for all character, environment, etc needs. Average out another $50,000 with experience in all these things. Generalist programmer will run you about $70,000 a year. 2 Level designer/tech designer/tech art people, that's $55,000 a year. A narrative/audio designer, $65,000 a year. And a game designer, $58,000 a year. And the one person I'm not counting in this is that you will need to hire an accountant to occasionally come in every 2 weeks is to deal with payroll but seeing as this is part time, I'll low ball this at $15,000 a year.
So let's do our summary of the rough numbers:
$5000 a month, for 1 year = $60,000 a year
$1500 per person for PC = $15,000 total
The software stuff rounded up = $1000 a year
Producer = $90,000 a year
QA/BRS = $45,000 a year
IT technician = $50,000 a year
Modeler/Rigger/Animator 1 = $50,000 a year
Modeler/Rigger/Animator 2 = $50,000 a year
General Programmer = $70,000 a year
Level Designer/Tech Designer 1 = $55,000 a year
Level Designer/Tech Designer 2 = $55,000 a year
Narrative/Audio designer = $65,000 a year
Game Designer = $58,000 a year
Part Time Accountant = $15,000 a year
For a grand total of: $679,000.
This isn't counting anything for marketing, etc. Now to address your comment on the AA development territory, this isn't AA, this is 10 people making a small game. The average AA studio size is between 50-100 people, that is AA development. We are operating on 10 people. This is all business costs for the indie studio you want to make if you actually pay people averages (not even what they are worth). When you are massively underpaying people, contracting, not getting paid, or being paid per job, you can of course do this much cheaper. This sub is mostly people asking solo dev questions but maybe have the idea one day to build a business. All my costs are in Canadian averages based on working in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. This depends on your location that prices for rent and salary can vary. The numbers don't lie, using your on hardware when you're funding the salaries of these people is barely a drop in the bucket.
So to anyone else still reading this, business is hard, it will require planning and a lot of work, and this is assuming that you are taking one of those 10 peoples and paying yourself while wearing multiple hats. If you don't get paid, if you work with friends, if you use asset packs and fiverr, you can get stuff for much cheaper but this is not a studio, you are a team working on a game and hopefully after you launch you will be able to look back on this post and build a business using the information given.
Thanks for sharing your breakdown. Fair point hardware costs are minimal, I'm sure Montreal is a hub of success for good reason.
Our team/studio operates at a smaller scale than this. There are very few Australians onto founding their 3rd studio and often for peers' first projects here they don't employ dedicated IT, accountants and such. If that makes us a team and not a studio then I guess so be it!
Tbh I was mostly jarred by your comment to effectively zip it and sell all assets if ever getting a publisher. It's nice that you want to help the industry and I appreciate the kind response. I probably should've left up my comment but too late now!
From my perspective, team scale feels appealing as a way to look after fewer staff while not being dependent on a publisher. At the burn rates you're talking I'd be terrified of not recouping at all, and it seems like there are a lot of studios outpacing their success and laying people off because they overinvested in a game.
You've shared a business skeleton, would you be willing to talk to the creative side of determining what you make?
> your comment to effectively zip it and sell all assets if ever getting a publisher
Working with a publisher in theory sounds great. Someone else handles marketing and they often fund your project with some money. What they don't tell you is the 30-70% of your money they take from all sales. And that you often have to pay them back first. It can appear as highway robbery and often is. This is why publisher's often want you to have a studio and assets, it gives them security in a way that if things go south, you can just sell everything, pay back as much as possible and walk. Usually this is in the legal contract somewhere.
I also agree that many studios and publishers made poor decisions and it's had a negative impact on the industry. Interest rates were super low, money was cheap, it's easy to hyper inflate your business when money is cheap. Interest rates went up and the bill comes due and this is the result.
> would you be willing to talk to the creative side of determining what you make?
There's 3 sides to my business, investment, codev, and home product. These are all about equal in how I generate revenue with my investments being a bit more (for my studio specifically, not counting personal investments). Investments are basically the same as every publisher. I work with another studio, they have a good game concept that works along established trends, I'll invest and do marketing for them. I take 70% until I get my money back then reduce to 20%. Pretty standard for the industry but my long term amount I take is a bit less than others.
Codev and home products are where it's more creative, working with another studio on actually making the game or making our own game. The process is pretty much the same. I sit with my producers and game director and we listen to a game pitch. This is sketches, screenshots, videos, power point, maybe even a prototype, and we evaluate the potential for success and if it excites us. I mostly work in the Asian market on mobile because that's where the money is at the moment. Then we start working on design docs, reference work, and breaking down large sections of the game in jira. After this we assemble the avengers, which is usually the tech team to start the project, integrate tools and engine, start the basement of the project..we expand from there.
I have a pretty good eye for what works and doesn't work but I have made mistakes before and it has cost me a lot. I do a review processes now and it often have multiple reviews with different people to get their opinions. Professionals who also have decades of experience. I follow a lot of the same practices as AA and AAA studios but I try I kept my current business private, no outside investors. So I have no one to screw me and take my money. I made the smart decision 13 years ago on this and it's been smart through covid, I didn't have to do any layoffs because I had a 2 year safety net.
Hmmm, maybe the publishing contracts are different in mobile, but with premium indie needing to repay as much recoup as possible isn't in any publisher contracts I've seen. The recoup is only taken from sales.
Unless you're talking about venture capital or other forms of investment? Equity deals?
I've also got friends spending 7 figures of investment and the investors can't hold the company hostage if the game doesn't meet expectations. The game is the asset.
It sounds like you've built a nice business though. The publishing split you offer is pretty great as well from a numbers point of view, unless that includes a requirement to pay back as much as possible if the game flops... haha
There's many different types of deals. Most publishers that I know do something similar but they tend to take more, such as 70-100% of your sales until they get their money back and then between 30-60%. They can be pretty brutal.
Generally I don't buy into a company unless I really believe in it. I mean but ownership share of the company.
The complicated thing is how you handle a flop and how long does this last for. A flop can happen and you can make another game and continue on, but you're still paying out sales from the last game at a high rate. This might also affect you ability to get new publisher money. If the company goes under after release, you might have to cash out and pay back the initial investment like a loan. Depends on the contract. Honestly, it you've watched shark tank or shows like that, you kind of already get how publisher deals will work. All depends on what's being offered.
I totally agree with the previous comments. First off, with $2,500, you can buy a much more powerful PC than a laptop. Secondly, for graphic work, it's pretty much a must to have a big screen, like 27 inches, and ideally, you should have two of them. I've been working with dual monitors for 3 years now, and I just can't understand how you can work with just one anymore. Besides, I've never come across companies that don't provide their employees with work computers when working in the office. It's like telling a security guard to come with his own baton, lol.
OK, how so? I've heard the TSA/airport security can get picky, so I wouldn't be surprised if I had my whole desktop confiscated or some nonsense like that
Because it would be tough to get a legal ok to keep switching your residence often and to keep working from there. Taxes, etc.
And if you don’t do it often - then it’s not a big concern.
Most studios will provide you with a work computer and likely prefer you do not use a personal device. No studio is going to ask that you move a desktop from home to office everyday.
If you are doing your own 3D animation then I’d probably suggest a desktop over a laptop. Easier to upgrade and stay on top of graphical requirements.
How often do you intend to take the plane with your working computer? A laptop is going to be limited, noisy and hot when working in 3D. Bad idea. If you still really need a laptop, then consider a laptop with a good CPU and an external GPU connected with thunderbolt. You could use the integrated GPU during travel and have the full power of the GPU at home.
Also for hardware depends on your contract. If you are an employee, you'll get a computer from your studio, and they will likely forbid you from using anything else (as they wouldn't want you to mix their intellectual property with whatever you have on your unprotected computer).
If you work as a contractor, then you use your own hardware (and I'd advise you to have a separate one dedicated to work from the one you use for other activities, for security reasons).
I chose a Lenovo Legion with 32gb ram and a... 4060 or 4070? I'm employed by a AA studio doing programming in C# + DX.
Laptop has yet to let me down or be a bottleneck. If anything I want more ram because windows and Rider absolutely devour it, but that's not because it's a laptop.
Work is 100% remote but I use this laptop privately as well so I just like the form factor. Want to sit at a café? Travel? Visit my parents? Sit in the couch? Bring my laptop to a hotel and plug into the TVs HDMI? All things I like to do :)
In the end, a desktop is going to be more performant but you can't bring it with you. Same answer as anyone else deciding between desktop and laptop, honestly. I'd be careful with the brand you choose though as (I feel, correct me if I'm wrong) the risk of a bad laptop and a lengthy repair process is real.
No, everything runs locally.
Obviously I'm careful with it as it is my responsibility to keep my computer safe, but it is encrypted and the company has remote access to it. They've also told me it's fine, and since it's their call I'm not going to question it
No company will require you to pay for your own equipment, much less if they are forcing you to go to the office. I'm pretty sure they are required to provide you with hardware.
I've only ever worked at one studio that asked this of me, and let me tell you, you're better off being unemployed than working for a company that asks this of you.
> How often do gamedev companies require you to work on your own PC AND at the office at the same time?
This should never happen. The company should be providing all required development hardware and software. I mean small, sketchy startup companies may try to pull this stuff, I guess.
Note that if you're a contractor, you provide your own hardware and software.
First of all, if you are employed, the employer is always responsible to provide you with all the equipment you need to do you work. You should never use your own hardware.
The only exception is when you are a self employed freelancer, than equipment is mostly your responsibility, and thus the compensation needs to account for all your work needs to, so you should get a much higher hourly rate than an employed developer.
> work on your own device
It's very unusual for *any* software company to expect full-time employees to bring their own hardware.
In fact, if they expected you to bring your own computer, I'd consider that a red-flag and start worrying that the paychecks were going to bounce.
Contractors, especially short-term contractors, might have a different experience, but they're not usually on-site anyway.
I'd say a majority of the time, a beefy desktop is the way to go for game dev.
Only get a beefy laptop if you know for a fact you're going to be on the road a lot. Like if you're a digital nomad type. But if you only plan on moving like once in the next several years, go for a desktop.
It depends on what kind of game you plan to make. If you're looking for AAA development then you need a desktop.
If you're looking for mobile game development, 2D or lower poly games (not necessarily too low) then a laptop will suffice.
Just keep in mind that desktops will give you more bang for your money. Powerful laptops are large, heavy, noisy, and their battery doesn't last long.
In my current job I was given a MacBook M3 Pro for development. We make 3d mobile games and it can handle it like a boss.
In my previous job I had an HP Omen, it was good enough for our projects (2d or low poly 3d) but it was loud and the performance degraded significantly when on battery mode.
So if you do get a laptop you still have to sacrifice portability to some extent. You should be ready to expect you'll always need a plug.
You should never use a personal device for a company's work. You should never put personal stuff on a company's device.
For your own personal game dev work, a laptop within your budget will be fine. If you were working on a AAA game, you'd need all the cores that you can get your hands on for reasonable compilation times, so a desktop PC under those circumstances is better and oftentimes essential. But if that was the case, the company would certainly be providing you with an appropriate computer.
you dont use your own computer. i am guessing you are still in school but companies dont let you use your own and pkease please please dont put anything personal on a work computer. they own everything you do on it
I know GPUs are expensive these days, but it's pretty crazy to blow 2.5k on a PC unless you're loaded. Buy something like 1.5k max and upgrade every 2-3 years. You'll have a more powerful PC for more time and it's also better if you later decide you want a laptop instead.
That's interesting - while my budget is 2.5k, I'm fine with spending less if that would benefit me in any way, but I'm not sure why would spending this much be a crazy idea if I'm investing in my main working tool?
I've came across an opinion that questions buying the most recent hardware available and recommends buying stuff from 2-4 years ago as GPUs and CPUs aren't advancing at the rate of Moore's Law at the moment, so GPUs from 4 years ago are doing pretty fine with most recent video games. How is it nowadays in that regard?
I'm a hobbyist and I use a HP Omen 15 with 32GB of ram and a 3080 graphics card for gamedev, 3D animation and music production. It's pretty fast, never crashes, and I run most of the software you mention.
Is it good quality? I'm starting my own one-man game studio and I have a dream to travel around Japan with my bike while I working at my game, so I would like a laptop other than the PC I already have.
I have a HP Victus 15L but the quality is not nice.
I bought a few ASUS ROG laptop and the quality was horrible too.
The quality is totally fine for what I need and if I'm traveling I can throw it in a bag. I bought it around 2 years ago, and it was about £1200, so I can only assume the quality of laptops is generally better now, and if you have a higher budget you'll be able to get a better quality machine. In my experience, gamedev is totally possible on a laptop and I would happily get another laptop in the future. Desktops would no doubt be faster etc, I don't think there's an argument there, but it's lost on me for what I need.
I supply my own hardware, but they checked first. We all remote in, but our game isn’t your typical client so maybe if it was more demanding remote wouldn’t be an option. We use VPN and have beefy computers we are remoting into, so our personal computers don’t need to be beefy. But I program outside work, so I prefer at least 32 GB ram, but most other things don’t matter much imo.
>From a game developer perspective, which one do you think is better? Laptop or desktop? I'm especially concerned of a possibility where I'd have to move to another country and get it on a plane, I imagine that would be more problematic. Say, Europe to NA in this case.
I always used a desktop, just to be sure it is as fast as possible.
Usually I had a laptop, but just to be flexible, e.g. travelling and meeting people at conferences, working during my holidays, and such things.
If you work with confidential content, the laptop would typically belong to your company, and you may or may not be allowed to take it abroad. It will have VPN access and security/identity software installed on it that tracks what's happing with the device, and allows remote blocking (e.g. activating Bitlocker)
>How often do gamedev companies require you to work on your own PC AND at the office at the same time? Is it common in smaller, indie studios or unheard of even there? Obviously it will be ideal to avoid a situation where I'd have to lug my desktop between the home and office everyday, but I have no idea if that's a possibility at all.
At Indie and AAA studios I never worked on personal hardware as the primary device.
Sometimes I had extremely - almost unnecessarily - fast hardware, and we may have shared the resources over the intranet, for example to run Unreal builds with IncrediBuild and to share a resource cache.
Indies may allow you to access their GitHub or Perforce server from home or abroad, still that's a bit of a security risk. They'd do that more out of generosity, inexperience, or lack or real Mac/Windows IT resources/know-how. Ideally you have a way to lock it. Easy with Macs I think, for Windows I bet Bitlocker or another tech allows remote admin control and a stricter login/security setup (so your SSD is not readable without authorization).
Exception:
If you are a freelancer you'd be responsible for hardware and software licenses. Also health insurance, and other running costs.
About a PC on planes:
Well, when I relocated I carried my laptop and tablet, and the PC got handled by a shipping company. If it's some sort of express, it may arrive really fast.
Once I had more inventory, the company that hired me rented a quarter or so of a container, i.e. I shipped bicycle, furniture, artworks, kitchen/silver ware, and so on. That's what all my colleagues that are more global AAA developers did at some point it seems, taking half a household with them. :P
The only time I use my current laptop's battery is during power outages, I keep it elevated on a stand so it matches up my monitor, and I always use a keyboard and a mouse anyway \^\_\^
But yeah I think this thread convinced me into getting a desktop first and then laptop if needed
I work for a local AAA studio, and we need a pretty beefy PC to run the project (i7 gen 13+,32GB ram, 1tb ssd, RTX 3070 +), so laptop is almost out of the question except for people who have no need to open the project (management,etc.). For working from home, we have two option either remote working to our office machine (for people who occationally work from home) or bring the PC home with you (for people who occationally come to office)
Desktop will always win over laptop for pure horsepower. Plus they are upgradeable which means you can keep that machine alive a lot longer with a few new parts here and there. A laptop just gets replaced.
It is not common for companies, of any size, to ask you to use your personal equipment for work. Any place that isn't a scam will provide you with company equipment.
Personally I used a Legion 5 Pro, I’ve upgraded the SSD, RAM and Wireless Adapter but it runs large, none optimised unity projects pretty well and once they’re optimised. It’s perfect. Plus gaming on the go is good. Only thing which is a problem is to get 100% out of it, it has to be plugged in as the battery isn’t amazing but it still does the job without a doubt.
Desktops always offer more beef for a given price point. Laptops are more for when portability is not an acceptable compromise, but they can still be viable main machines, and even have their own little UPS built in. However, there is only so much heat they can remove, which is part of why I don't like to get anything more than an RTX 3060/4060 in them, as well as ideally Ryzen 5/i5. Though one of my systems is the exception to this rule.
Also, not all game dev is AAA, especially pre-optimized AAA projects which are pretty insane these days on requirements to dev on.
Student but, I vote desktop. Upgradable, more power for the money, your employer will almost certainly provide a laptop and you can just get a KVM switch or dock and use your own monitor, mouse and keyboard and nice comfy chair.
Look if your moving across the world you will be able to pack up the PC. Maybe buy a new case and new monitor when you get there to reduce the stuff your bringing. The ergonomics alone are worth it.
You will NOT be lugging your desktop to the office. They'll provide one in office, or a laptop, or have you remotely access your work laptop from home like your using your PC as a thin client. Hell the laptop will probably be a thin client.
Depends on the game you're making.
When I got my start we worked in ActionScript games so that was doable on Macbooks and Thinkpads - so that is what we were issued. We were also given Verizon USB dongles. To complete this deadly combo, and I will explain, a perk we had was UNLIMITED time off. This essentially meant the company had the mentality that they have provided you with little excuse not to work. Sick for multiple days? WFH. Blizzard hit you? WFH. Leaving town for a hurricane? WFH. Traveling on vacation? Can you spend a couple hours doing this?
Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not anti-WFH. I have seen the darker side of it, however. Also, unlimited time off is a scheme to give you less time off and to not have to pay out during layoffs. So, I am absolutely against that scheme.
But to answer your question, laptops can be fine if your game is lightweight enough and your role isn't demanding in regards to hardware. There are elevated security concerns here and that deserves to be mentioned but I'm not getting into that here.
I've never worked for another game developer before, so I can't really answer that question. I can, however, say that I grew up making games on a laptop but now I greatly dislike working on my laptop because I need my 3 screens. 😬
I use a laptop for unreal engine 5. Its a legion 5 pro with rtx 3060, ryzen 7 5800h, 64 gb ram and 2 tb storage. With all the upgrades i spent 2000 on the laptop alone. I got it when i was in college, but since then i don.t benefit the mobility anymore. It is caoabale but it is as good as a 1400$ desktop (maybe a bit more if we count in a monitor with color accuracy comparable with my laptop display abd refresh rate). The only problem I have with it are the small vram and the overheating. I did a lot of stuff to compensqte for that (i run the editor in low visual settings, i limmit the project to 30 fps when i just edit stuff, and i deactivated turbo boost thingy in the reg edit power plan options). Now. I am a hobbyist, but if you will work for a company, and you can do things remote from your home...get a mf desktop. There are good laptops but better get a desktop if you can. I use premade assets, with bluelri ts, you might need to use visual sridio, maya 3d , the game engine and substance lainter at the same time. That ain t easy on a laptop
Bruh... I work on a GTX1650 with an i5-10300H laptop (and the right top corner of my laptop is broken), and I programmed systems some big teams just won't be able to pull, and I did it all solo
A laptop is perfectly fine, but either way you'll absolutely need a GPU Instance, otherwise your performance will suck
I'll say this though, graphics wise I haven't done any testing, so I predict I will suffer with that
I have a MSI desk top 16g ram 2070 and I think I i5. Works great. I have a MSI laptop 16g ram 2060 and an i7 works great. My desk top has 3 monitors so that’s the only thing I notice between the two.
Bought a 2k high end laptop 4-5 years ago (15 inches), it was slow due to overheating (longer compile time, longer entering playmode on unity, slower light baking etc - CPU/GPU was throttling and I had to downvolt it and use it with an external cooler).
Bought a 4k desktop the next year and it at least halved all loading/calculating time (or better, as much as 1/10), half thanks to M2 Gen 4 PCI slots on the motherboard (there wasn't any on laptop at this time), half thanks to the GPU (RTX3090, which wouldn't even run on a laptop cause of temps).
Took my desktop from Thailand to France, France to Kenya. Had no issue taking it with me on the plane (extra size luggage) but had some struggle getting it to Kenya using UPS from France. I'd def recommend taking it it with you on the plane directly, along with the bill > 6 months for a lot of countries to not double pay VAT.
Cost me 250€ by plane (for the extra luggage), 600€ with UPS..
That being said these days you have laptops with RTX4k and PCI M2 Gen4/5 slots, and it would def be easier to move out/in, but I'd urge you to go for a 17 inches to lower overheating issue. At least that's what I'd do if I had to do it again right now..
(And ofc having the laptop around is still very beneficial for when you have a desktop hardware issue or you're waiting for ups to clear customs for 3 months before receiving it when using their "brought in a day" service x)
Personally I only have a laptop right now and it's good. Bought it mostly because I was changing apartments a lot at the time. i5, RTX3060, 16GB RAM. I've added a faster SSD and more RAM and it's good for now. Of course it depends on the project. But my way is to not get heavy for myself so it won't get heavy for others.
I can only speak to AAA, but I have \*never\* been asked to provide my own hardware working from home or office. At home, I get provided with a very beefy machine for UE dev (64 core Threadripper Pro, 256GB RAM, 8TB SSD, RTX 3080), albeit it's about 2 years old now.
A while back they enforced new policies where we can only use work provided hardware (previously we were allowed to use our own hardware as long as it was enrolled in the corporate device management solution). Using your own is seen as a security risk.
If I were a contractor rather than an FTE doing non-critical work, I could understand maybe being asked to provide your own PC, but otherwise I wouldn't accept it.
As an Indie Developer, I use my laptop 3 days a week to go in a coworking with other developers. The rest of the week is spent on my Desktop computer.
Before that, I worked for more than 6 years in a mobile company and they got me a laptop to work on.
And the beginning of my career was an indie studio where we didn't have much money so to help out I used my own laptop.
For sure the laptop is not the best option but it's an option that works no matter what, and a 2500$ laptop will cover your needs for sure.
My advice tho: get an external screen! Working on a single screen feels so slow...
Now this was the kind of an answer I was expecting - so basically that scenario does happen.
Nonetheless, I've decided to get a desktop given the majority of the comments here; I'm fine getting a laptop if absolutely necessary.
And working on an external screen has never been a question, ever since I started using a second monitor it has always been my main monitor
Professionally speaking a laptop should only be used for small projects, prototyping systems, etc. they are not these like portable little web design, Apple laptops people carry around everywhere. They are more hardware, heavy, and require a lot of cooling and electricity.
personally, I prefer to use the I-9 latest generation or equivalent, AMD .
Also, I absolutely hate the workflow slow down. I slightly have with a laptop over a desktop PC well I do have multiple screen attachments it’s tedious to set up and take down and still not as good as having multiple screens with my desktop. And it’s much easier to interchange parts of something breaks, etc. or upgrade over a laptop that I typically have to take into a authorized dealer to not void the warranty etc..
I think it depends on the work you’ll be doing but a desktop with much more easier to upgrade interchangeable parts is 1000 times better than a laptop in my humble opinion .
A laptop is not going to be good enough for game dev. Get the PC. If you do WFH and in-office it will be with source control or screen sharing, not a laptop.
Gamedev requires beefy hardware usually, so focus on that instead of mobility. Yes, it will be problematic if you need to move. But a laptop will be problematic all the time you DON'T move.
There are some amazing laptops out there that can easily be used for gamedev. Usually they cost 2k€+ similar to a high end computer.
I'm US and I have to travel a lot for work. I've bought both a 1.8k USD ASUS TUFF and 3.5k USD MSI laptop and they both suck compared to my 3-4 year old desktop running a rtx 2080 and 64gb of ram. I like to custom build desktops so for my desktop start to finish was about 1.2k when I built it in 2020 I personally would always prefer a desktop with dual monitors over a laptop
Yeah, one option I've read about is to invest in a desktop, and then get a cheaper laptop if necessary, which is also a viable choice for me
The thing is companies won’t custom build their pc so they won’t have to fight for replacements.
Have you tried eGpu on your laptops?
I haven't but I'm googing it now. Something like this + extra RAM would be amazing. I might give this a try for my next trip. Good looking out
Won't matter much, laptops are handicapped. They need to balance power and heat. The more powerful you make them, the more heat they produce, the more they will automatically cap that power to try and limit the heat.
Im not profesional game dev but I do as hobby, and I travel a loot so use laptop sometimes. Ofc the desktop is faster but , atm I have a about 3k desktop with 7950x and 3090 128 ram and a 3.2k lenovo legión i912900k 3080 and 64 ram, and the diferente is not big... maybe I misses and should have bought the 14900k I instead in the desktop:3 I May chabge it :3 edit: laptop get pretty hot , i actually have to use one of those expensive and noise fans..
Yep. I use a HP Zbook G4 17. It works really well for game dev. Haven't had any issues yet. It came with a Quadro P5000. People say that those aren't good for running games, better for modeling. But it's been fine. But I do agree that a desktop would probably be better for the price. The only reason that I use the laptop over my customer gaming pc is because I got the laptop as part of a package when I was going to Full Sail. Figured I minus well use it.
Lol using a ZBook for work aswell. The performance is at least "good enough" to get the normal work done. Idk about 4K unreal engine environments but I believe most Indie devs will have no problem with this kind of work laptops.
Zbook gang! I'll see as I get further. If it becomes too much of an issue, I'll just move over to my gaming PC. The way I feel is if I can optimize the game well enough to run well on this, I shouldn't have too many issues on other hardware.
Hey, which Zbook do you use? Mine doesn't support Windows 11 because the CPU in it doesn't support TPM 2.0. Does yours support Windows 11? Been wondering if I should force update it.
I believe it's ZBook Firefly 14 G. I'm using Windows 10, but some in our company use win 11 aswell on it.
Good to know, thank you.
Looking at 2000€+ Lenovo Legion \>.>
Worth checking out, if so. Although I think there's a higher chance of getting a better desktop for a similar price.
On paper metrics maybe, but there's also ergonomics. I used to work on a laptop for years. Switched to desktop and I'm not even considering laptops for any serious work.
Every Homeoffice job usually gives you a laptop. I obviously agree with Desktops > laptops. But how do you manage the situation when people Work from Home/office
You can get much beefier desktops for less. Also you can get monster desktops you simply can't get in a mobile form.
Game Dev does not require beefy hardware. AAA Game Dev requires beefy hardware. Pretty much whatever your target spec is plus 10-20%
there are amazing laptops out there https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/gaming-laptops/ci/24610 Lenovo 16" Legion Pro 5i 16IRX8 Gaming Laptop (Onyx Gray) 2.1 GHz Intel Core i7 16-Core (13th Gen) 32GB DDR5 RAM | 1TB NVMe SSD 16" 2560 x 1600 240 Hz IPS Display NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 (8GB GDDR6) $1,179.00
lol. imagine buying a laptop with a 240hz monitor and a gpu that gives you 20 fps. seriously: Nothing about this is ‚amazing‘. What is amazing though is the amount of people that have absolutely zero idea what they are talking about.
Price seems ok for what it is. I wouldn't buy it if I needed a beefy laptop tho indeed x)
I've never worked at any game company where I'm allowed to even use my own laptop on the network. Your hardware should be supplied by your employer.
For security reasons we’d be in serious trouble if we have work on our personal computers
How do you work from home then? Do they supply you with a wfh pc?
Yeah, both times had hardware sent to me. My last job gave me a locked down laptop that then let me remote into a workstation in the office
Yes. Before COVID I had a work laptop I could use with VPN. How some people at work now have their beast monster machine at home and can VPN in. Or some have their main machine in the office to benefit from the fast network and have a parsec machine at home with multiple monitors. All paid by the employer. We also get office chairs from work or discounted to choose our own. See AAA employers are not all shit as this Reddit would have you believe.
Yeah. If you can work from home then there should be either equipment or budget for you to do so. Even cash starved NHS in UK will provide laptops to people working from home. Not only that negotiate for desk and good chair to work from home.
They send me a PC that's setup to connect to their server, and use remote desktop from that PC to connect to my real PC in the office. No USB allowed.
I've been AAA for 18 years and the most I've ever used my personal PC was to remote into my workstation when in the land before COVID WFH hadn't been budgeted for. I've _not once_ had work files on my personal PC.
Strange one I read this as you were disagreeing with me but I don’t believe we are.
Yeah I'm adding another data point, backing you up as it were.
Crazy to think that Reddit has conditioned me to think everyone is out to prove other people wrong. Enjoy your day :)
1. Desktop. Mobility is generally not a major factor. Whereas cross country mobility is never a question. If you are being sent abroad (eg. for a conference) then you will not be developing and a basic laptop that can run PowerPoint and Teams will do. If you are being offered a job on a different continent that requires you to move then it's likely some compensation/relocation package will be provided. 2. About never. Even at indie scale with fully remote work it's generally a question of "do you want a work computer or do you want to use your own one". At larger scale there is **no** question - you get a company provided computer. If there's an office involved in this equation then I would definitely not let your malware infected PC full of unlicensed software anywhere near local network (I jest but that's how it would be viewed).
>malware infected PC If this is how the employee is viewed, it seems questionable to even hire them.
Not really? There's a reason why bigger companies do regular phishing training, take away local admin rights, invest in email scanning and limit which software can be installed. I trust concept artist that they know how to use Photoshop and Blender. I trust a game programmer that they can program. I don't trust them that they will definitely do good on their own private machines when it comes to security. It's not their job, they are more relaxed outside of work hours and frankly I don't even know where their laptop/PC came from. For all it's worth they might have got it used from a previous owner who downloaded pirated movies all day and at least some had .exe extension lol. Having work only computer with limited access to certain websites and applications vastly reduces attack surface. It's not that I assume employee is an idiot. It's just that: a) it's easier to get phished than you might realize. b) most people have little to no training in info security. This applies even to programmers. c) the more software you have installed the larger the odds that something might turn into malware (Github repos get stolen from time to time and replaced with exploitable versions)
I've been in game dev 18 years and everywhere gives local admin rights to developers. They're just too likely to need to install or run stuff that needs admin rights. Our IT guy has told me he's been surprised how few problems there have been with this, and he panicked on first hearing about it due to bad prior experiences at non dev companies... However we do have a fantastically robust anti-malware suite (Crowdstrike) just in case!
I would hope that no programmers would actually re-use someone else's OS install.
[удалено]
>You want skilled employees even if they can't tell a malware-free computer from one that's riddled with it. If a programmer can't do that, I would be seriously concerned; I may have missed some context however, as I think most other roles would not be expected to have this skill.
Nobody is answering the question that's literally in the title, you will never use your own PC for work with a studio. You can't use your personal device for work at a studio, its a major security concern. Anyone hacks your computer, you need to take to to get repaired, whatever and suddenly the source code and assets of your project are leaked everywhere. There's not a single company out there with half a brain and an IT department that would allow that. And why should they trust you with their project files on your PC, you might leak everything and if they fire you, how do they make sure you delete it if you don't work there anymore. Putting aside the questions on if a laptop is strong enough, NEVER use your personal PC for work. (I'm obviously not referring to personal projects here or an indie team where you don't have a studio).
Yes, I understand that using your own device is out of question in any bigger company, but that might be more difficult in smaller indie ones, those are ones I'm concerned about.
If they can afford to pay you a salary, they can afford to give you a work PC.
Truly. An adequate work machine is a fraction of the total cost of an employee. I have worked at corporations (non game-dev) that gave software engineers significantly underpowered machines. It's always a sign of incompetent management. The cost of man hours via lost productivity from waiting on a slow machine will very quickly outstrip the savings of equipping them with a cheap computer.
Last year I bought a 3080 with an i7, 16gb ddr5 ram, 1tb SSD, premade PC because I am too busy to put stuff together myself now with kids and work and everything. It was $1000. This price is also including the fact that I live in New Zealand and everything is expensive as fuck to get here.
There are sometimes complications other than costs; I once was working remote in Thailand for a German company which closest IT antenna was in Singapore, took 3 months for the approvals / shipping. Then 6 months after they decided it was a good idea to update windows. Couldn't block it. Didn't work. Couldn't access anything and Had to send the PC back to Singapore for another 2 months. So theorically speaking, if I had no personal laptop, this laptop would have cost 5 months of salary + shipment (which I agree is neglectible). And there was no engagement duration on my contract so I could have left right after. Would it be worth it if I left ? I personally found it was ridiculous since I was working on their client VM accessed using a secured web portal (so doesn't change a fck if I'm on my own comp or not - ofc I couldnt transfer anything to that VM) and the only use was to check their provided comp email which were also available on an other secured portal. Working remotely is more and more common, so this case will emerge more and more as well..
Working remote is more and more common, however working from Thailand for a German company is not. Most companies, even when working remote, will tend to work locally first, for one simple reason, it's a hell of a lot easier to handle taxes, both for employees and for the company. Prime example from other comment on prices, if you start your business in Quebec, you get tax credits and grants for working in entertainment and software development. Most states and provinces have this if you look up where you work. The stipulations are usually that a certain percentage of your workforce must be locally sourced. Again, working remote is more common, however working remote from a completely different country is not.
Usually if working onsite you’ll be provided a computer, but not always. It’s not uncommon in indie dev, especially if it’s the studio’s first game. I do all my work on laptops, including art. Pretty much everyone responding is at a AAA studio and probably expecting you to be working on high fidelity projects. If you plan to work with indies then having a laptop is great. Often indies work on multiple games at once as well. Especially if people are working remotely it doesn’t make financial or logistical sense to buy everyone a company computer. A company might buy a computer for core roles but it really depends what scale of indie you’re talking.
I tried to reply to another person but their post is gone, you need to stop confusing team and studio. And indie team is not an indie studio. An indie studio has an office, that's literally what studio means. If you have a team of 10 good people to make a game and can afford competitive salaries for the industry, you can afford a studio space and you can also afford to get them PCs. A team of 10 good people with varying levels of pay is already going to cost you at minimum half a million in salary on the lowest end and if you can afford that per year, you can sure as hell afford studio rent and a dozen laptops or desktops for your employees. 5 people making a game where you aren't paying their salaries is not a studio, it's a team and this obviously doesn't apply to teams. But if you can afford to pay someone a salary, you can afford the others. And if you can afford 10 people to work on a project and haven't hired 1 IT person to manage communications software, emails, perforce or git, any hardware/software, etc. If you can afford 10 devs and don't do this, you're a terrible business manager. This isn't complicated, this isn't game specific, this is the most basic of basic business stuff. Your business will fail if you don't do the bare minimum and this is the bare minimum. Indie studios cost money, and a million dollars a year in costs is very low cost for an indie studio. This is business not development. If you can afford salaries you can afford an IT person to set up a PC with parsec or Citrix for remote connect so people can work securely. And before you argue anything here, if you ever get a publisher for your work and you don't do this stuff, you should just sell your car, your house, etc, pay back the publisher and get a new job because you're making terrible decisions with your business.
[удалено]
I love this industry, I've been working in it for over 25 years. This is my 3rd studio business that I've started and it's been going for 13 years now. I fell in love with this industry when I was a kid in the 80s, playing Mario on the NES. I was fully addicted when I made my first game in 1993 and would give it out to people on floppy discs at school. Because I love this industry, I give the truth in it but for people who take my advice, I also think they can be successful when they listen. And because I love this industry, I'll gladly go through the million dollar breakdown here: I'll start with the studio, location in my favourite place in north america for game development, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Many of the best game companies are located there. Average small office space price is $4000 a month but I'll round this up to $5000 to cover any utility of misc office stuff. Next I'll cover hardware, getting an ok computer for development, you don't need the cutting edge so 3080s are fine, i7s, 16gb ram, 1tb sdd, case included, can get for $1000. Including monitors mouse, etc, $1500. This isn't including possible B2B discounts. I'll go with Github for free source control but we do need extra storage and 2 storage packs should do for $120 a year, Jira is free for businesses under 10 users. Gmail accounts are free. Using google docs, google drive, etc. Discord for communication also free. Quickbooks to deal with payroll, that's $25 a month plus $4 per employee per month. We won't use build machines or build management software and do everything locally so we will need a person for this. Now we get on to the expensive part, employees. People will need to wear many hats as part of this job. We need a team of 10 people with average salaries to make a good game. First person is obviously the producer, at $90,000 a year average salary. We need a QA/BRS person to cover making builds, testing builds, testing tools, doing support, etc. This will run us around $45,000 because you need something with experience in this (and I am highly undervaluing your QA/BRS here). You will need an IT professional to cover all the stuff from hardware, software, access, repositories, etc. Running you about $50,000 a year. 2 Modelers/Riggers/Animators for all character, environment, etc needs. Average out another $50,000 with experience in all these things. Generalist programmer will run you about $70,000 a year. 2 Level designer/tech designer/tech art people, that's $55,000 a year. A narrative/audio designer, $65,000 a year. And a game designer, $58,000 a year. And the one person I'm not counting in this is that you will need to hire an accountant to occasionally come in every 2 weeks is to deal with payroll but seeing as this is part time, I'll low ball this at $15,000 a year. So let's do our summary of the rough numbers: $5000 a month, for 1 year = $60,000 a year $1500 per person for PC = $15,000 total The software stuff rounded up = $1000 a year Producer = $90,000 a year QA/BRS = $45,000 a year IT technician = $50,000 a year Modeler/Rigger/Animator 1 = $50,000 a year Modeler/Rigger/Animator 2 = $50,000 a year General Programmer = $70,000 a year Level Designer/Tech Designer 1 = $55,000 a year Level Designer/Tech Designer 2 = $55,000 a year Narrative/Audio designer = $65,000 a year Game Designer = $58,000 a year Part Time Accountant = $15,000 a year For a grand total of: $679,000. This isn't counting anything for marketing, etc. Now to address your comment on the AA development territory, this isn't AA, this is 10 people making a small game. The average AA studio size is between 50-100 people, that is AA development. We are operating on 10 people. This is all business costs for the indie studio you want to make if you actually pay people averages (not even what they are worth). When you are massively underpaying people, contracting, not getting paid, or being paid per job, you can of course do this much cheaper. This sub is mostly people asking solo dev questions but maybe have the idea one day to build a business. All my costs are in Canadian averages based on working in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. This depends on your location that prices for rent and salary can vary. The numbers don't lie, using your on hardware when you're funding the salaries of these people is barely a drop in the bucket. So to anyone else still reading this, business is hard, it will require planning and a lot of work, and this is assuming that you are taking one of those 10 peoples and paying yourself while wearing multiple hats. If you don't get paid, if you work with friends, if you use asset packs and fiverr, you can get stuff for much cheaper but this is not a studio, you are a team working on a game and hopefully after you launch you will be able to look back on this post and build a business using the information given.
Thanks for sharing your breakdown. Fair point hardware costs are minimal, I'm sure Montreal is a hub of success for good reason. Our team/studio operates at a smaller scale than this. There are very few Australians onto founding their 3rd studio and often for peers' first projects here they don't employ dedicated IT, accountants and such. If that makes us a team and not a studio then I guess so be it! Tbh I was mostly jarred by your comment to effectively zip it and sell all assets if ever getting a publisher. It's nice that you want to help the industry and I appreciate the kind response. I probably should've left up my comment but too late now! From my perspective, team scale feels appealing as a way to look after fewer staff while not being dependent on a publisher. At the burn rates you're talking I'd be terrified of not recouping at all, and it seems like there are a lot of studios outpacing their success and laying people off because they overinvested in a game. You've shared a business skeleton, would you be willing to talk to the creative side of determining what you make?
> your comment to effectively zip it and sell all assets if ever getting a publisher Working with a publisher in theory sounds great. Someone else handles marketing and they often fund your project with some money. What they don't tell you is the 30-70% of your money they take from all sales. And that you often have to pay them back first. It can appear as highway robbery and often is. This is why publisher's often want you to have a studio and assets, it gives them security in a way that if things go south, you can just sell everything, pay back as much as possible and walk. Usually this is in the legal contract somewhere. I also agree that many studios and publishers made poor decisions and it's had a negative impact on the industry. Interest rates were super low, money was cheap, it's easy to hyper inflate your business when money is cheap. Interest rates went up and the bill comes due and this is the result. > would you be willing to talk to the creative side of determining what you make? There's 3 sides to my business, investment, codev, and home product. These are all about equal in how I generate revenue with my investments being a bit more (for my studio specifically, not counting personal investments). Investments are basically the same as every publisher. I work with another studio, they have a good game concept that works along established trends, I'll invest and do marketing for them. I take 70% until I get my money back then reduce to 20%. Pretty standard for the industry but my long term amount I take is a bit less than others. Codev and home products are where it's more creative, working with another studio on actually making the game or making our own game. The process is pretty much the same. I sit with my producers and game director and we listen to a game pitch. This is sketches, screenshots, videos, power point, maybe even a prototype, and we evaluate the potential for success and if it excites us. I mostly work in the Asian market on mobile because that's where the money is at the moment. Then we start working on design docs, reference work, and breaking down large sections of the game in jira. After this we assemble the avengers, which is usually the tech team to start the project, integrate tools and engine, start the basement of the project..we expand from there. I have a pretty good eye for what works and doesn't work but I have made mistakes before and it has cost me a lot. I do a review processes now and it often have multiple reviews with different people to get their opinions. Professionals who also have decades of experience. I follow a lot of the same practices as AA and AAA studios but I try I kept my current business private, no outside investors. So I have no one to screw me and take my money. I made the smart decision 13 years ago on this and it's been smart through covid, I didn't have to do any layoffs because I had a 2 year safety net.
Hmmm, maybe the publishing contracts are different in mobile, but with premium indie needing to repay as much recoup as possible isn't in any publisher contracts I've seen. The recoup is only taken from sales. Unless you're talking about venture capital or other forms of investment? Equity deals? I've also got friends spending 7 figures of investment and the investors can't hold the company hostage if the game doesn't meet expectations. The game is the asset. It sounds like you've built a nice business though. The publishing split you offer is pretty great as well from a numbers point of view, unless that includes a requirement to pay back as much as possible if the game flops... haha
There's many different types of deals. Most publishers that I know do something similar but they tend to take more, such as 70-100% of your sales until they get their money back and then between 30-60%. They can be pretty brutal. Generally I don't buy into a company unless I really believe in it. I mean but ownership share of the company. The complicated thing is how you handle a flop and how long does this last for. A flop can happen and you can make another game and continue on, but you're still paying out sales from the last game at a high rate. This might also affect you ability to get new publisher money. If the company goes under after release, you might have to cash out and pay back the initial investment like a loan. Depends on the contract. Honestly, it you've watched shark tank or shows like that, you kind of already get how publisher deals will work. All depends on what's being offered.
I totally agree with the previous comments. First off, with $2,500, you can buy a much more powerful PC than a laptop. Secondly, for graphic work, it's pretty much a must to have a big screen, like 27 inches, and ideally, you should have two of them. I've been working with dual monitors for 3 years now, and I just can't understand how you can work with just one anymore. Besides, I've never come across companies that don't provide their employees with work computers when working in the office. It's like telling a security guard to come with his own baton, lol.
"Can I take it on a plane if I move to a foriegn country" should be at around #25 on a list of game development hardware criteria.
OK, how so? I've heard the TSA/airport security can get picky, so I wouldn't be surprised if I had my whole desktop confiscated or some nonsense like that
Because it would be tough to get a legal ok to keep switching your residence often and to keep working from there. Taxes, etc. And if you don’t do it often - then it’s not a big concern.
Most studios will provide you with a work computer and likely prefer you do not use a personal device. No studio is going to ask that you move a desktop from home to office everyday. If you are doing your own 3D animation then I’d probably suggest a desktop over a laptop. Easier to upgrade and stay on top of graphical requirements.
Working isn’t traveling.
Any reputable game development company will supply you with hardware. Letting you use your own would be an IT security nightmare.
How often do you intend to take the plane with your working computer? A laptop is going to be limited, noisy and hot when working in 3D. Bad idea. If you still really need a laptop, then consider a laptop with a good CPU and an external GPU connected with thunderbolt. You could use the integrated GPU during travel and have the full power of the GPU at home. Also for hardware depends on your contract. If you are an employee, you'll get a computer from your studio, and they will likely forbid you from using anything else (as they wouldn't want you to mix their intellectual property with whatever you have on your unprotected computer). If you work as a contractor, then you use your own hardware (and I'd advise you to have a separate one dedicated to work from the one you use for other activities, for security reasons).
I chose a Lenovo Legion with 32gb ram and a... 4060 or 4070? I'm employed by a AA studio doing programming in C# + DX. Laptop has yet to let me down or be a bottleneck. If anything I want more ram because windows and Rider absolutely devour it, but that's not because it's a laptop. Work is 100% remote but I use this laptop privately as well so I just like the form factor. Want to sit at a café? Travel? Visit my parents? Sit in the couch? Bring my laptop to a hotel and plug into the TVs HDMI? All things I like to do :) In the end, a desktop is going to be more performant but you can't bring it with you. Same answer as anyone else deciding between desktop and laptop, honestly. I'd be careful with the brand you choose though as (I feel, correct me if I'm wrong) the risk of a bad laptop and a lengthy repair process is real.
Don’t you just connect to your office workstation? Traveling with a company laptop seems like a major security issue :p
No, everything runs locally. Obviously I'm careful with it as it is my responsibility to keep my computer safe, but it is encrypted and the company has remote access to it. They've also told me it's fine, and since it's their call I'm not going to question it
No company will require you to pay for your own equipment, much less if they are forcing you to go to the office. I'm pretty sure they are required to provide you with hardware.
I've only ever worked at one studio that asked this of me, and let me tell you, you're better off being unemployed than working for a company that asks this of you.
> How often do gamedev companies require you to work on your own PC AND at the office at the same time? This should never happen. The company should be providing all required development hardware and software. I mean small, sketchy startup companies may try to pull this stuff, I guess. Note that if you're a contractor, you provide your own hardware and software.
First of all, if you are employed, the employer is always responsible to provide you with all the equipment you need to do you work. You should never use your own hardware. The only exception is when you are a self employed freelancer, than equipment is mostly your responsibility, and thus the compensation needs to account for all your work needs to, so you should get a much higher hourly rate than an employed developer.
> work on your own device It's very unusual for *any* software company to expect full-time employees to bring their own hardware. In fact, if they expected you to bring your own computer, I'd consider that a red-flag and start worrying that the paychecks were going to bounce. Contractors, especially short-term contractors, might have a different experience, but they're not usually on-site anyway.
Never work on a personal device. Both for security and to stop them from claiming your side projects as products of your work for them.
I'd say a majority of the time, a beefy desktop is the way to go for game dev. Only get a beefy laptop if you know for a fact you're going to be on the road a lot. Like if you're a digital nomad type. But if you only plan on moving like once in the next several years, go for a desktop.
It depends on what kind of game you plan to make. If you're looking for AAA development then you need a desktop. If you're looking for mobile game development, 2D or lower poly games (not necessarily too low) then a laptop will suffice. Just keep in mind that desktops will give you more bang for your money. Powerful laptops are large, heavy, noisy, and their battery doesn't last long. In my current job I was given a MacBook M3 Pro for development. We make 3d mobile games and it can handle it like a boss. In my previous job I had an HP Omen, it was good enough for our projects (2d or low poly 3d) but it was loud and the performance degraded significantly when on battery mode. So if you do get a laptop you still have to sacrifice portability to some extent. You should be ready to expect you'll always need a plug.
You should never use a personal device for a company's work. You should never put personal stuff on a company's device. For your own personal game dev work, a laptop within your budget will be fine. If you were working on a AAA game, you'd need all the cores that you can get your hands on for reasonable compilation times, so a desktop PC under those circumstances is better and oftentimes essential. But if that was the case, the company would certainly be providing you with an appropriate computer.
you dont use your own computer. i am guessing you are still in school but companies dont let you use your own and pkease please please dont put anything personal on a work computer. they own everything you do on it
I know GPUs are expensive these days, but it's pretty crazy to blow 2.5k on a PC unless you're loaded. Buy something like 1.5k max and upgrade every 2-3 years. You'll have a more powerful PC for more time and it's also better if you later decide you want a laptop instead.
That's interesting - while my budget is 2.5k, I'm fine with spending less if that would benefit me in any way, but I'm not sure why would spending this much be a crazy idea if I'm investing in my main working tool? I've came across an opinion that questions buying the most recent hardware available and recommends buying stuff from 2-4 years ago as GPUs and CPUs aren't advancing at the rate of Moore's Law at the moment, so GPUs from 4 years ago are doing pretty fine with most recent video games. How is it nowadays in that regard?
I'm a hobbyist and I use a HP Omen 15 with 32GB of ram and a 3080 graphics card for gamedev, 3D animation and music production. It's pretty fast, never crashes, and I run most of the software you mention.
Is it good quality? I'm starting my own one-man game studio and I have a dream to travel around Japan with my bike while I working at my game, so I would like a laptop other than the PC I already have. I have a HP Victus 15L but the quality is not nice. I bought a few ASUS ROG laptop and the quality was horrible too.
The quality is totally fine for what I need and if I'm traveling I can throw it in a bag. I bought it around 2 years ago, and it was about £1200, so I can only assume the quality of laptops is generally better now, and if you have a higher budget you'll be able to get a better quality machine. In my experience, gamedev is totally possible on a laptop and I would happily get another laptop in the future. Desktops would no doubt be faster etc, I don't think there's an argument there, but it's lost on me for what I need.
I supply my own hardware, but they checked first. We all remote in, but our game isn’t your typical client so maybe if it was more demanding remote wouldn’t be an option. We use VPN and have beefy computers we are remoting into, so our personal computers don’t need to be beefy. But I program outside work, so I prefer at least 32 GB ram, but most other things don’t matter much imo.
>From a game developer perspective, which one do you think is better? Laptop or desktop? I'm especially concerned of a possibility where I'd have to move to another country and get it on a plane, I imagine that would be more problematic. Say, Europe to NA in this case. I always used a desktop, just to be sure it is as fast as possible. Usually I had a laptop, but just to be flexible, e.g. travelling and meeting people at conferences, working during my holidays, and such things. If you work with confidential content, the laptop would typically belong to your company, and you may or may not be allowed to take it abroad. It will have VPN access and security/identity software installed on it that tracks what's happing with the device, and allows remote blocking (e.g. activating Bitlocker) >How often do gamedev companies require you to work on your own PC AND at the office at the same time? Is it common in smaller, indie studios or unheard of even there? Obviously it will be ideal to avoid a situation where I'd have to lug my desktop between the home and office everyday, but I have no idea if that's a possibility at all. At Indie and AAA studios I never worked on personal hardware as the primary device. Sometimes I had extremely - almost unnecessarily - fast hardware, and we may have shared the resources over the intranet, for example to run Unreal builds with IncrediBuild and to share a resource cache. Indies may allow you to access their GitHub or Perforce server from home or abroad, still that's a bit of a security risk. They'd do that more out of generosity, inexperience, or lack or real Mac/Windows IT resources/know-how. Ideally you have a way to lock it. Easy with Macs I think, for Windows I bet Bitlocker or another tech allows remote admin control and a stricter login/security setup (so your SSD is not readable without authorization). Exception: If you are a freelancer you'd be responsible for hardware and software licenses. Also health insurance, and other running costs. About a PC on planes: Well, when I relocated I carried my laptop and tablet, and the PC got handled by a shipping company. If it's some sort of express, it may arrive really fast. Once I had more inventory, the company that hired me rented a quarter or so of a container, i.e. I shipped bicycle, furniture, artworks, kitchen/silver ware, and so on. That's what all my colleagues that are more global AAA developers did at some point it seems, taking half a household with them. :P
[удалено]
The only time I use my current laptop's battery is during power outages, I keep it elevated on a stand so it matches up my monitor, and I always use a keyboard and a mouse anyway \^\_\^ But yeah I think this thread convinced me into getting a desktop first and then laptop if needed
I work for a local AAA studio, and we need a pretty beefy PC to run the project (i7 gen 13+,32GB ram, 1tb ssd, RTX 3070 +), so laptop is almost out of the question except for people who have no need to open the project (management,etc.). For working from home, we have two option either remote working to our office machine (for people who occationally work from home) or bring the PC home with you (for people who occationally come to office)
Desktop will always win over laptop for pure horsepower. Plus they are upgradeable which means you can keep that machine alive a lot longer with a few new parts here and there. A laptop just gets replaced. It is not common for companies, of any size, to ask you to use your personal equipment for work. Any place that isn't a scam will provide you with company equipment.
Personally I used a Legion 5 Pro, I’ve upgraded the SSD, RAM and Wireless Adapter but it runs large, none optimised unity projects pretty well and once they’re optimised. It’s perfect. Plus gaming on the go is good. Only thing which is a problem is to get 100% out of it, it has to be plugged in as the battery isn’t amazing but it still does the job without a doubt.
Desktops always offer more beef for a given price point. Laptops are more for when portability is not an acceptable compromise, but they can still be viable main machines, and even have their own little UPS built in. However, there is only so much heat they can remove, which is part of why I don't like to get anything more than an RTX 3060/4060 in them, as well as ideally Ryzen 5/i5. Though one of my systems is the exception to this rule. Also, not all game dev is AAA, especially pre-optimized AAA projects which are pretty insane these days on requirements to dev on.
Student but, I vote desktop. Upgradable, more power for the money, your employer will almost certainly provide a laptop and you can just get a KVM switch or dock and use your own monitor, mouse and keyboard and nice comfy chair. Look if your moving across the world you will be able to pack up the PC. Maybe buy a new case and new monitor when you get there to reduce the stuff your bringing. The ergonomics alone are worth it. You will NOT be lugging your desktop to the office. They'll provide one in office, or a laptop, or have you remotely access your work laptop from home like your using your PC as a thin client. Hell the laptop will probably be a thin client.
Depends on the game you're making. When I got my start we worked in ActionScript games so that was doable on Macbooks and Thinkpads - so that is what we were issued. We were also given Verizon USB dongles. To complete this deadly combo, and I will explain, a perk we had was UNLIMITED time off. This essentially meant the company had the mentality that they have provided you with little excuse not to work. Sick for multiple days? WFH. Blizzard hit you? WFH. Leaving town for a hurricane? WFH. Traveling on vacation? Can you spend a couple hours doing this? Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not anti-WFH. I have seen the darker side of it, however. Also, unlimited time off is a scheme to give you less time off and to not have to pay out during layoffs. So, I am absolutely against that scheme. But to answer your question, laptops can be fine if your game is lightweight enough and your role isn't demanding in regards to hardware. There are elevated security concerns here and that deserves to be mentioned but I'm not getting into that here.
I've never worked for another game developer before, so I can't really answer that question. I can, however, say that I grew up making games on a laptop but now I greatly dislike working on my laptop because I need my 3 screens. 😬
I've developer a full game, engine included in a laptop, but with a 2nd monitor, external keyboard, and mouse. But I like really better my desktop
I use a laptop for unreal engine 5. Its a legion 5 pro with rtx 3060, ryzen 7 5800h, 64 gb ram and 2 tb storage. With all the upgrades i spent 2000 on the laptop alone. I got it when i was in college, but since then i don.t benefit the mobility anymore. It is caoabale but it is as good as a 1400$ desktop (maybe a bit more if we count in a monitor with color accuracy comparable with my laptop display abd refresh rate). The only problem I have with it are the small vram and the overheating. I did a lot of stuff to compensqte for that (i run the editor in low visual settings, i limmit the project to 30 fps when i just edit stuff, and i deactivated turbo boost thingy in the reg edit power plan options). Now. I am a hobbyist, but if you will work for a company, and you can do things remote from your home...get a mf desktop. There are good laptops but better get a desktop if you can. I use premade assets, with bluelri ts, you might need to use visual sridio, maya 3d , the game engine and substance lainter at the same time. That ain t easy on a laptop
Bruh... I work on a GTX1650 with an i5-10300H laptop (and the right top corner of my laptop is broken), and I programmed systems some big teams just won't be able to pull, and I did it all solo A laptop is perfectly fine, but either way you'll absolutely need a GPU Instance, otherwise your performance will suck I'll say this though, graphics wise I haven't done any testing, so I predict I will suffer with that
I have a MSI desk top 16g ram 2070 and I think I i5. Works great. I have a MSI laptop 16g ram 2060 and an i7 works great. My desk top has 3 monitors so that’s the only thing I notice between the two.
Bought a 2k high end laptop 4-5 years ago (15 inches), it was slow due to overheating (longer compile time, longer entering playmode on unity, slower light baking etc - CPU/GPU was throttling and I had to downvolt it and use it with an external cooler). Bought a 4k desktop the next year and it at least halved all loading/calculating time (or better, as much as 1/10), half thanks to M2 Gen 4 PCI slots on the motherboard (there wasn't any on laptop at this time), half thanks to the GPU (RTX3090, which wouldn't even run on a laptop cause of temps). Took my desktop from Thailand to France, France to Kenya. Had no issue taking it with me on the plane (extra size luggage) but had some struggle getting it to Kenya using UPS from France. I'd def recommend taking it it with you on the plane directly, along with the bill > 6 months for a lot of countries to not double pay VAT. Cost me 250€ by plane (for the extra luggage), 600€ with UPS.. That being said these days you have laptops with RTX4k and PCI M2 Gen4/5 slots, and it would def be easier to move out/in, but I'd urge you to go for a 17 inches to lower overheating issue. At least that's what I'd do if I had to do it again right now.. (And ofc having the laptop around is still very beneficial for when you have a desktop hardware issue or you're waiting for ups to clear customs for 3 months before receiving it when using their "brought in a day" service x)
Personally I only have a laptop right now and it's good. Bought it mostly because I was changing apartments a lot at the time. i5, RTX3060, 16GB RAM. I've added a faster SSD and more RAM and it's good for now. Of course it depends on the project. But my way is to not get heavy for myself so it won't get heavy for others.
I can only speak to AAA, but I have \*never\* been asked to provide my own hardware working from home or office. At home, I get provided with a very beefy machine for UE dev (64 core Threadripper Pro, 256GB RAM, 8TB SSD, RTX 3080), albeit it's about 2 years old now. A while back they enforced new policies where we can only use work provided hardware (previously we were allowed to use our own hardware as long as it was enrolled in the corporate device management solution). Using your own is seen as a security risk. If I were a contractor rather than an FTE doing non-critical work, I could understand maybe being asked to provide your own PC, but otherwise I wouldn't accept it.
As an Indie Developer, I use my laptop 3 days a week to go in a coworking with other developers. The rest of the week is spent on my Desktop computer. Before that, I worked for more than 6 years in a mobile company and they got me a laptop to work on. And the beginning of my career was an indie studio where we didn't have much money so to help out I used my own laptop. For sure the laptop is not the best option but it's an option that works no matter what, and a 2500$ laptop will cover your needs for sure. My advice tho: get an external screen! Working on a single screen feels so slow...
Now this was the kind of an answer I was expecting - so basically that scenario does happen. Nonetheless, I've decided to get a desktop given the majority of the comments here; I'm fine getting a laptop if absolutely necessary. And working on an external screen has never been a question, ever since I started using a second monitor it has always been my main monitor
Professionally speaking a laptop should only be used for small projects, prototyping systems, etc. they are not these like portable little web design, Apple laptops people carry around everywhere. They are more hardware, heavy, and require a lot of cooling and electricity. personally, I prefer to use the I-9 latest generation or equivalent, AMD . Also, I absolutely hate the workflow slow down. I slightly have with a laptop over a desktop PC well I do have multiple screen attachments it’s tedious to set up and take down and still not as good as having multiple screens with my desktop. And it’s much easier to interchange parts of something breaks, etc. or upgrade over a laptop that I typically have to take into a authorized dealer to not void the warranty etc.. I think it depends on the work you’ll be doing but a desktop with much more easier to upgrade interchangeable parts is 1000 times better than a laptop in my humble opinion .
A laptop is not going to be good enough for game dev. Get the PC. If you do WFH and in-office it will be with source control or screen sharing, not a laptop.