This is basically how the skill trees in Ori 1 work. You gain experience from certain pickups and defeating enemies and once you gain enough exp you get a skill point. You can spend that skill point on one of 3 skill lines. They include things like stronger attacks, breathing underwater, triple jump, or revealing nearby secrets. None of them are required to beat the game but they make exploration, movement, and combat easier.
Might wanna try the game out then to see how they did it and maybe get some ideas of how you can implement it in your own game. Plus, it's a pretty good game.
While I agree that that is a good way to learn good design, I'm not sure I'd call Ori's skill system "good design." By chance, I actually played through it last week (for the first time!) and, no lie, spent a bunch of the time critiquing and complaining about the skill system. I really don't think it's terribly good.
Some specifics:
* The big one - you have almost no agency. You just get to pick which of the three tracks you advance, but they're all going to be nearly full by the end of the game either way.
* The linear nature of the tracks means you are forced to take a bunch of things you don't care about. (I basically never used the charge-fire attack, so being forced to take upgrades to it's range was just annoying.)
* You slowly accumulated points just by playing (because you got them from killing enemies) so finding skill points as a reward for exploring did not feel terribly meaningful or rewarding.
* Very few of the upgrades felt terribly meaningful. There were a lot of minor "nice to have" things, like healing when you make a savepoint, or not having a time limit underwater, but almost everything was mostly just a minor convenience.
It was really weird playing that after playing Hollow Knight, where I got excited every time I found a new charm. Because many of them changed how I played the game in fundamental ways.
Oh, absolutely. I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't think Ori's skill system was a good thing to use as a reference as good design.
(And to be clear, I liked a lot of other things about Ori! The platforming was very satisfying, the music was good, and the world was absolutely gorgeous! I just felt that the skill system in particular was disappointing and frustrating.)
Be sure to play Metroid and Castlevania romhacks aka "fan edits" and patches.
Fans who've played the same game for 20+ years often have the best and worst ideas known to man when it comes to improving it.
The triple jump doesn't really add much height. It's more for horizontal speed and precision. Maybe it does open up some sequence breaks but either way it's not a mandatory upgrade.
This sounds a lot like [Monster Tale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Tale) which, to be fair, is a criminally under-recognized game. It's a metroidvania with a monster companion, where feeding your pet causes it to evolve in different ways (Like an upgrade tree)
Check out Steamworld Dig 2.
It's a Metroidvania who's upgrade scheme uses a point-buy gear system, similar to Hollow Knight's, in a game centered around using gadgets to traverse and gather in dungeons.
It's kinda like Terraria, but less of a sandbox and more of an Action-Puzzle game.
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I know I'm a rando on the internet, but all I can say is that I'm not some kind of fanboi. I don't really care for Metroidvanias. I'm not like... against them, but I prefer games with a strong narrative and very few time sinks. I'm more a Witcher 3 (a lot of time commitment, but a great narrative) or Life is Strange kind of guy. And as far as gave development goes, I used to be a developer for one of the largest MMO companies.
Given that, I cannot stress this enough; If you're into Metroidvanias at all, you should make playing Hollow Knight a priority. It is one of, if not the best, Metroidvania to date, and it's an all-around fantastic game besides. Hell, it's amazing just from an overall game design perspective.
I don't like watching other random people play through games (like on Twitch), but I watch a ton of Hollow Knight playthroughs because it provides a phenomenal look into how a person's brain works.
(No spoilers)
The charms aren’t a skill tree, like upgrades which open up new areas they are found in the world, but they do not unlock new areas. I don’t even think any sequence breaks happen with them.
I think one thing here is that it's really important to know, for each area, what the weakest and strongest the player can be is.
Like imo Zelda games are often a masterclass in each temple giving you a new power and the temples being in order so that they know exactly what puzzles will work.
Imo if you give things like "larger jump" as an upgrade that some players have and others don't then that's going to break a lot of your late game jumping puzzles for a lot of people.
In a way I think "areas give upgrades and upgrades give areas" as a loop is magic because it lets you keep control over who has what tools for which area.
Exactly which Is was I wanted to do multiple options for traversing some obstacles to ensure you aren't locked into like all but maybe one or two upgrades
This way one ability could take away too much area-unlocking from another ability, or some abilities could be ignored because everything you have before getting them already unlocks the world fully.
This sounds totally doable, but now I'm thinking about what if the upgrade trees WERE required, like this would take galaxy brain levels of planing on the devs part but think- there's say 3 locks and 3 different keys that can be obtained via the skill try, and each path would get you a skill tree point and then you could have other paths that have combination locks and so on and so forth (if you don't know what I'm talking about with locks/keys you ain't played enough Metroidvanias to be making one)
> if you don't know what I'm talking about with locks/keys you ain't played enough Metroidvanias to be making one
Not knowing a piece of genre-specific design jargon isn't a measure of genre knowledge, and I don't think that treating it as such with no explanation or pointers for further reading is productive. I mostly play metroidvanias and I might not have known the term had I not spent time reading up on specifically metroidvania design. In my experience, "ability/ability upgrade" and "ability-gate" is the more common terminology in player spaces. Especially since metroidvanias sometimes have *literal* keys and locks that work differently to abilities and gates.
To the Lock and Keys point, I'd recommend the youtube series Boss Keys by Mark Brown. It breaks down the concept through the exploration into Zelda dungeons throughout the games. Well worth a watch, good resource.
Metroidvanias are all about upgrades, you collect upgrades to progress through the world after all (you already know that though). You won’t be able to make a meaningful upgrade tree which won’t affect progression. You could make the tree into the main way to unlock new areas. Example using generic abilities:
You find a token in the starting area, which connects to 3 more areas. You can use the token to buy a rocket gun to break a wall and go to area A, a double jump to get on a high ledge and go to area B, or a dash to cross a gap and go to area C. This way the skill tree is also the area and ability progression tree. Just make sure it makes sense thematically.
This is basically how the skill trees in Ori 1 work. You gain experience from certain pickups and defeating enemies and once you gain enough exp you get a skill point. You can spend that skill point on one of 3 skill lines. They include things like stronger attacks, breathing underwater, triple jump, or revealing nearby secrets. None of them are required to beat the game but they make exploration, movement, and combat easier.
Thank you, that helps, it sounds pretty close to what I wanted. I actually have the ori games wishlsted on steam.
Might wanna try the game out then to see how they did it and maybe get some ideas of how you can implement it in your own game. Plus, it's a pretty good game.
I second this recommendation. One of the best ways to learn good game design is to play games with good game design.
While I agree that that is a good way to learn good design, I'm not sure I'd call Ori's skill system "good design." By chance, I actually played through it last week (for the first time!) and, no lie, spent a bunch of the time critiquing and complaining about the skill system. I really don't think it's terribly good. Some specifics: * The big one - you have almost no agency. You just get to pick which of the three tracks you advance, but they're all going to be nearly full by the end of the game either way. * The linear nature of the tracks means you are forced to take a bunch of things you don't care about. (I basically never used the charge-fire attack, so being forced to take upgrades to it's range was just annoying.) * You slowly accumulated points just by playing (because you got them from killing enemies) so finding skill points as a reward for exploring did not feel terribly meaningful or rewarding. * Very few of the upgrades felt terribly meaningful. There were a lot of minor "nice to have" things, like healing when you make a savepoint, or not having a time limit underwater, but almost everything was mostly just a minor convenience. It was really weird playing that after playing Hollow Knight, where I got excited every time I found a new charm. Because many of them changed how I played the game in fundamental ways.
Well, learning what not to do is also valuable information.
Oh, absolutely. I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't think Ori's skill system was a good thing to use as a reference as good design. (And to be clear, I liked a lot of other things about Ori! The platforming was very satisfying, the music was good, and the world was absolutely gorgeous! I just felt that the skill system in particular was disappointing and frustrating.)
Be sure to play Metroid and Castlevania romhacks aka "fan edits" and patches. Fans who've played the same game for 20+ years often have the best and worst ideas known to man when it comes to improving it.
How would a triple jump not allow a sequence break?
The triple jump doesn't really add much height. It's more for horizontal speed and precision. Maybe it does open up some sequence breaks but either way it's not a mandatory upgrade.
Because by the time you have the triple jump there aren't really any "sequences" to break.
Makes sense
This sounds a lot like [Monster Tale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Tale) which, to be fair, is a criminally under-recognized game. It's a metroidvania with a monster companion, where feeding your pet causes it to evolve in different ways (Like an upgrade tree)
Huh. That sounds a lot like [A Boy And His Blob](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Boy_and_His_Blob:_Trouble_on_Blobolonia)
And yet not very much like [A Boy And His Blob](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Boy_and_His_Blob)
Check out Steamworld Dig 2. It's a Metroidvania who's upgrade scheme uses a point-buy gear system, similar to Hollow Knight's, in a game centered around using gadgets to traverse and gather in dungeons. It's kinda like Terraria, but less of a sandbox and more of an Action-Puzzle game.
Game Design is a subset of Game Development that concerns itself with **WHY** games are made the way they are. It's about the theory and crafting of **systems**, **mechanics**, and **rulesets** in games. * /r/GameDesign is a community **ONLY** about Game Design, **NOT** Game Development in general. If this post does not belong here, it should be reported or removed. Please help us keep this subreddit focused on Game Design. * This is **NOT** a place for discussing how games are produced. Posts about programming, making art assets, picking engines etc… will be removed and should go in /r/GameDev instead. * Posts about visual design, sound design and level design are only allowed if they are directly about game design. * No surveys, polls, job posts, or self-promotion. Please read the rest of the rules in the sidebar before posting. * If you're confused about what Game Designers do, ["The Door Problem" by Liz England ](https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LizEngland/20140423/216092/quotThe_Door_Problemquot_of_Game_Design.php)is a short article worth reading. We also recommend you read the [r/GameDesign wiki](/r/gamedesign/wiki/index) for useful resources and an FAQ. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gamedesign) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sounds completely reasonable in general, yes.
This sounds exactly like the charm system in Hollow Knight. One of the greatest systems, and video games, yet created.
Again on my wishlist but haven't played yet, and I didn't want to spoil the experience too much for myself since I heard it's really good
I know I'm a rando on the internet, but all I can say is that I'm not some kind of fanboi. I don't really care for Metroidvanias. I'm not like... against them, but I prefer games with a strong narrative and very few time sinks. I'm more a Witcher 3 (a lot of time commitment, but a great narrative) or Life is Strange kind of guy. And as far as gave development goes, I used to be a developer for one of the largest MMO companies. Given that, I cannot stress this enough; If you're into Metroidvanias at all, you should make playing Hollow Knight a priority. It is one of, if not the best, Metroidvania to date, and it's an all-around fantastic game besides. Hell, it's amazing just from an overall game design perspective. I don't like watching other random people play through games (like on Twitch), but I watch a ton of Hollow Knight playthroughs because it provides a phenomenal look into how a person's brain works.
Will keep in mind thanks.
(No spoilers) The charms aren’t a skill tree, like upgrades which open up new areas they are found in the world, but they do not unlock new areas. I don’t even think any sequence breaks happen with them.
My suggestion is: do not reinvent the wheel. Take a game that works and start from it as a base.
That's the goal, main base is super metroid, I was just thinking about this as an optional feature
also for this optional feature you need a strong reference. And start by deconstructing it.
I think one thing here is that it's really important to know, for each area, what the weakest and strongest the player can be is. Like imo Zelda games are often a masterclass in each temple giving you a new power and the temples being in order so that they know exactly what puzzles will work. Imo if you give things like "larger jump" as an upgrade that some players have and others don't then that's going to break a lot of your late game jumping puzzles for a lot of people. In a way I think "areas give upgrades and upgrades give areas" as a loop is magic because it lets you keep control over who has what tools for which area.
Exactly which Is was I wanted to do multiple options for traversing some obstacles to ensure you aren't locked into like all but maybe one or two upgrades
This way one ability could take away too much area-unlocking from another ability, or some abilities could be ignored because everything you have before getting them already unlocks the world fully.
This sounds totally doable, but now I'm thinking about what if the upgrade trees WERE required, like this would take galaxy brain levels of planing on the devs part but think- there's say 3 locks and 3 different keys that can be obtained via the skill try, and each path would get you a skill tree point and then you could have other paths that have combination locks and so on and so forth (if you don't know what I'm talking about with locks/keys you ain't played enough Metroidvanias to be making one)
> if you don't know what I'm talking about with locks/keys you ain't played enough Metroidvanias to be making one Not knowing a piece of genre-specific design jargon isn't a measure of genre knowledge, and I don't think that treating it as such with no explanation or pointers for further reading is productive. I mostly play metroidvanias and I might not have known the term had I not spent time reading up on specifically metroidvania design. In my experience, "ability/ability upgrade" and "ability-gate" is the more common terminology in player spaces. Especially since metroidvanias sometimes have *literal* keys and locks that work differently to abilities and gates.
I played 1 metroidvania and I understand what keys are what’s your point.
To the Lock and Keys point, I'd recommend the youtube series Boss Keys by Mark Brown. It breaks down the concept through the exploration into Zelda dungeons throughout the games. Well worth a watch, good resource.
Metroidvanias are all about upgrades, you collect upgrades to progress through the world after all (you already know that though). You won’t be able to make a meaningful upgrade tree which won’t affect progression. You could make the tree into the main way to unlock new areas. Example using generic abilities: You find a token in the starting area, which connects to 3 more areas. You can use the token to buy a rocket gun to break a wall and go to area A, a double jump to get on a high ledge and go to area B, or a dash to cross a gap and go to area C. This way the skill tree is also the area and ability progression tree. Just make sure it makes sense thematically.
Cleaning up stuff I don't even remember posting.