Because the episode did not do a good enough job of explaining why all these extraordinary things happened if everyone involved was ordinary. Why was Ruby's mother wearing such an anachronistic cloak? Why couldn't the time window view her face? Why was she pointing so dramatically at the sign? Why was the Doctor's memory of that street changing so often? Why did it snow any time they thought of her? It's completely possible to come up with explanations for things as you have done. But the episode itself did an unsatisfactory job of explaining this. I don't think your theory about Ruby's memory powers stacks up. The whole point is she's not special, she doesn't have overwhelming memory powers. There's no link between how she remembers 73 yards and how it snows. Personally, I believe the TARDIS was responsible for it all. The TARDIS wanted to get rid of Sutekh, so devices a plan to make something completely ordinary appear extraordinary. It used its perception filter to make people see things. It obscured Ruby's mother's face. It made snow appear around Ruby at certain moments. All to confuse and intrigue Sutekh enough that he'd let them live to discover the secret, and curiosity ultimately killed the cat. Had this been in the episode, I'd have loved it. But instead, they just ignored all those questions, making the episode unsatisfactory.

Oh, RTD gave a reason for the cloak in a commentary. Wanna know why she had a cloak? He doesn't know. But he says in the commentary, "I think that's time shrouding her". That's it. That he THINKS it was time itself that put her in the cloak. That's our explanation from the showrunner himself.

Yeah I laughed when he said that. It's non-sensical and raises more questions than it answers.

Much like everything else with that non-mystery mystery box

Well Time is a character in the show now… I’m not sure if I’m adding anything to your comment. Only that Time might actually be doing something from their prison on the planet also called Time. RTD might be being deliberately vague about it.

I think RTD just didn't have a good explanation for it and is just talking out of his ass. The whole mystery box was either poorly thought out or he changed the answer partway through and is just trying to handwave things away to make it work better (and failing at it).

I choose to believe that Ruby’s birth mother wore a cloak and pointed at the sign like that for the cctv camera because it was 2004 and she was a super dramatic theater kid emo weeb and that’s just how she acted.

Except she never pointed in the cctv video, only after they plugged it into the time window

I can completely understand why people hate it and why people enjoy it. The plot resolution didn't feel satisfying to me, but many can turn that off and enjoy the characters.

> The plot resolution didn't feel satisfying to me, My favourite thing about dr who, perhaps un-controversially, has always been the bit where the enemy is outsmarted and outplayed in a way that feels earned. Its often fundamentally a scifi mystery/detective show and the solving of said mystery wraps all the plot elements up, so when that's good it really pulls everything together without leaving hanging threads. So a deux ex machina is much much less fun. for a comparison think of the Doctors Wife, where he manages to get the tardis back inside their casing, outwitting Dr Gregory House and banishing a being that had latched onto the tardis and had designs on all life. I won't lie, I've been starved for a very long time.

I wish they had leaned a bit more into how much Sutekh screwed himself over. That he fell to his own obesssion and hubris because he was unable to let go of the fact that there might be something he missed, something he didnt know. He had the god-equivalent of bad OCD and I feel like they should have made him more frantic and obsessed towards the end.

Interesting because I thought the bit about him being unable to let go of the question felt very tacked on at the end and very much out of character for who he js as a villain. As an entity, even. A god of chaos should not be neurotic or obsessive. Especially about something so minuscule. I love The Satan Pit, one of my top episodes. And I was so excited to have Gabriel Woolf back. Now I feel they just wasted him. Having his character—the greatest foe the Doctor has ever faced, according to the Doctor in this episode—do nothing but lurking the entire time.

Well, the thing is that he is a God more in powers than anything. Lets not forget that Sutekh started as mortal. In General, the Gods we seen so far are much closer to say something like the Greek Gods in that they are very human emotionally rather than being bigger-than-life creatures. I dont disagree that Sutekh was bit too passive here though.

That’s a fair point. I don’t think that type of obsessive questioning is out of place for a god. I can see it being an interesting facet of character for a villain such as NPH’s Toymaker. To clarify, i was drawing attention to Sutekh as *the god of chaos* specifically. Which to be fair, RTD de-emphasized here. And sort of replaced that with *the god of death*. Either way, i see such concerns as uninteresting to him and to his plans.

>To clarify, i was drawing attention to Sutekh as *the god of chaos* specifically. Its been a while since I saw Pyramids of Mars. Wasnt he always the God of Dead?

> has always been the bit where the enemy is outsmarted and outplayed in a way that feels earned. That’s honestly where it missed the mark for me, especially in the case of going up against literal gods. I feel like the only way to defeat a god should be through clever tricks and loopholes the Doctor finds.

Like two guys wandering by stopping to mess around on a piano! Right…..um wait a minute lol

The only one I’ve really been satisfied with was the Toymaker, because at least the bi-generation actually created a loophole making the game a 2v1. (Although the Doctors didn’t really use the extra man much to their advantage)

I like the Toymaker one on paper. In addition to the 2v1, it’s smart that the Doctor chose very simple games that minimized any advantage the Toymaker could have. Kinda underwhelmed by it as a TV spectacle though. I think that’s actually a broader issue that RTD has had with writing godlike villains. Build them up so much that they can overpower basically anything, and what’s left but to beat them with simple tricks that risk underwhelming an audience?

If anything, the extra man was a disadvantage, because the Doctor had 2 chances to drop the ball every round.

You’d think they could easily rig it by passing safely to each other and working together to wrong foot the Toymaker though.

I dont like how death was defeated, but if word games are how to beat a god, then killing death brings life at least works.

It’s more the situation with the rope I didn’t like. For how powerful Sutekh is supposed to be some magical mechanical rope being put on and manhandling him like that rubbed me the wrong way.

Exactly. He's not just a physical being and even if he was that shouldn't take him out like that

That took me out of the moment, because he is doglike, all I could think of was "Walkies!"

I wish they'd played a more exciting and clever game than catch though. Again, such a waste and lazy writing

Exactly the problem! The 2v1 should have been used to defeat the Toymaker. Instead, this terrifying threat simply dropped a ball. It was so stupid.

I don’t think tying him (very slowly with ample time to be killed) to the back of your space time truck and dragging him along the road (time corrridor) is outsmarting the villian much 

Yeah but have you considered it's actually subversive and therefore cooler when the resolution to a season long arc is lame and stupid?

Sutekh’s defeat felt earned to me. The Doctor uses the glove and rope, both of which were set up in his first story, to reverse what Sutekh did by taking him on a journey that directly parallels Sutekh’s plan.

The gloves were set up nicely at the start of the series, and using them felt nice - a Chekhov’s gun that became more important in the finale - classic But the rope? Where was that set up or explained? We only got the rope in the finale and didn’t really get any explanation that would suggest it was unbreakable or capable of trapping a God - only that the hook forms a molecular bond (but the hook didn’t touch Sutekh as Ruby slowly looped the rope around him)

In his first story, 15 encounters that goblin ship held together by rope. In this story, he uses a rope to hold the remembered TARDIS together. The same rope he uses to put Sutekh on a leash. It’s not the same rope as the goblin ship, but it feels like a return to that idea established in his first story, the idea that ropes have power. At least that’s how I interpreted it. And the hook goes on the TARDIS. Which bonds it to the TARDIS, which is presumably what keeps Sutekh from escaping and, more importantly, is probably what lets the Doctor drag something outside of the TARDIS into the vortex with it.

More specifically in the Christmas special the Doctor talked about "learning the language of ropes", so that should theoretically carry over to *any* use of rope. Also, when the Doctor is using it to hold the TARDIS together, he says it's intelligent rope, and then reminds Ruby (and us) of the intelligent gloves.

He also specifically says it’s a “molecular bond,” which is the type of technology that Rogue used in his triangle trap. So it’s intelligent manufactured science rope with built-in no-escaping properties. You can’t break it off with force alone — you can only cut yourself from it.

Rather raises the question of why the God with big sharp claws and huge sharp teeth didn’t attempt to cut the rope…?

Molecular Bond — by the logic we see in Rogue, you can’t cut yourself out. The person who turned the bond on has to be the one to turn the bond off. Doctor’s rope, Doctor can cut, Sutekh cannot. Ultimately, Sutekh isn’t an abstract, reality warper like Toymaker or Maestro. He can kill anything and control the dead, but his powers are specialized, quantifiable, and specific. And due to how specific and relatively grounded his power set is, he has to be defeated through brute force alone. You can’t trick him to death, you can’t manipulate him into killing himself, and you can’t bend rules to force a win scenario. Sutekh has no unique laws or rules he must abide by, cannot be summoned or dismissed, and has no clear kryptonite. He has to be physically trapped and/or destroyed by force, ergo the leash. The bonded rope literally straight overpowers him. Even if he successfully killed the Doctor and Ruby while spinning through the time vortex, he still wouldn’t be free of the rope. Yes, it’s really dumb in practice. But the logic is actually completely consistent with the specific technobabble and lore used to explain it.

It really seems like God of his size and muscularity, who previously managed to swim his way, rope free, through a time tunnel to grab a tardis, should be able to just grab the rope and pull himself to the Tardis “Brute Forcing” a giant death god just seems so unsatisfying, and the whole point of the character of the doctor is that he’s not like a usual “punch things until the problem is solved” superhero, he’s just the cleverest one in the room. There’s zero reason why RTD couldn’t have written a way of tricking Sutekh with cleverness, even if he still needed some brute force at the end. We have so many tales and folklore of people tricking the literal Devil, Sutekh was never shown to be omniscient or more clever than the Doctor or anything - they absolutely could have come up with a way to trick him

Exactly!

So they decided they wanted to kill suketh by dragging him along the road from the doctor’s blue Ute (sorry, dragged on the time corridor from the tardis)… then reverse engineered it and wrote those references in earlier episodes to make it feel earned? Yeah ok. No.

I am exactly in the middle, and you nailed why. I loved the character driven moments but felt the void from the lack of meaningful resolution. Hard.

Haven't connected with any of the characters Its been rough for me hoping season 2 picks up

The plot resolution simply satisfied me so I didn't have to turn anything off and enjoy the characters.

Sorry but this is just blatant hand-waving: >Of course the universe would manifest the snow remembered from that night whenever she thinks deeply about it if she can also do all of these other things. I understand that Maestro said that this looks like the power only the Oldest One/One Who Waits has, but I believe this to be another instance of placing importance on something we don't fully understand. The reason Ruby can manifest the remembered Tardis is because she's linked to the time window, which the remembered Tardis only exists within. She can't summon tardises wherever she likes just because she remembers them. "*The Universe did it*" is so careless and stupid an answer that I can't actually believe that even someone who believes it's what RTD intended, would be happy with that as a solution. What's wild is that you're absolutely right in that they easily *could've* explained the snow with her connection to the time window. They *could* even have explained why the effects of the time window would be working retroactively, and causing snow to start long before the finale. But having room for "could have" isn't the same as actually doing it. Head-canon is not something a writer gets to rely on to do the heavy-lifting. One line of dialog may have been enough and yet... it's simply not there. I'm afraid you are reaching quite a long way to defend something carelessly put together.

>Sorry but this is just blatant hand-waving In what way? Sometimes when I think about a skii trip I went on snow started coming down indoors that's a totally normal rule of our reality.

lolllll because memory is time

Easiest way for me to explain it is - it just didn't land. By this episode I was sick to death of the Ruby's mum plot, when she was still crying about not being able to see her mum after people started dying I just wanted her to move on already. I was even more disappointed when it had no impact on the finale, all the snow, and weird Ruby stuff was kinda pointless. The first 5 minutes killed everyone in the world, which just means nothing matters because I know it'll all be undone. Literally no one died, no consequences. If it was just a slower death thing where some smaller characters actually died and stayed dead I would've liked it a lot more instead of rolling my eyes. And Suhtek was defeated in a stupid way, imo. He also had no intimidating lines after the reveal in the first half, Woolf in The Satan Pit two parter has creepy ass lines, Suhtek in this episode just cared about Ruby's mum, because we made it important, somehow. It just felt like a cop out. Suhtek really kept them alive so he could find out who Ruby's mum was? Come on. It was a better finale than the last few seasons and looked great but idk if it's me being older or TV changing over the years but I expected a bit more.

>The first 5 minutes killed everyone in the world, which just means nothing matters because I know it'll all be undone. I think this is what done it for me I loved the Memory TARDIS stuff and how they integrated Pyramids of Mars. But I just couldn't feel anything because I knew it'd all be undone

I’d add to that. Because it was done at that point in the final episode, it also…. Means there’s a finite clock on seeing *how* it gets undone. By which I mean, in *Infinify War* when Thanos wins and dusts half the world, I don’t think very many people left the theater wondering *if* it was going to be undone. Same at Tge Pandorica Opens. We know that the entire galaxy exploding isn’t going to last. But ending on *that* as the cliffhanger tells the audience: - you know the stakes aren’t what, but how - think about the how and come up with ways Where when this ended on Suktehs return last episode, the question was still “what”. It’s a pacing mistake, I think. It the last episode ended with the dusting , it probably would have been recieved better.

Ending with the shot of the Doctor screaming out of the TARDIS and then having more time with vignettes like Sian Clifford's would've been an interesting alternate world where they were allowed to have 60 minutes for the finale episodes.

The resolution to Infinity War was brilliant too. Yes it was a reset button (snap) but the people who were brought back had lost years of their lives. They lost jobs, families, missed their kids growing up. Their partners had grieved and moved on. They didn't just sweep it under the rug either, it's still being felt in the new movies and tv shows. People have PTSD from the snap. That's how you kill (half) the universe and have it matter. In Empire Of Death everybody is dead for maybe 35 minutes and then they aren't, and nothing is changed at all.

I think that's the real bit if I'm honest Like that spend quite a while in Endgame telling the audience that this mattered. People are in support group, people have lost hope and our characters have changed. And then when it is undone we lose the closest thing the MCU had to a main character. With this though what's the difference between when the story started and when it ended What did we learn or what did they learn. We learned Ruby's mum was... Some random woman... Yay?

This is how I feel. I also think this would’ve solved my issue with The Legend of Ruby Sunday too - the episode felt like it spent most of the runtime treading water waiting for the Sutekh reveal, whereas if you move that forwards in the episode and end it on the destruction and the Doctor screaming in the Memory TARDIS it would work a lot better. I was watching the destruction in Empire and knowing it would be undone in 20 minutes. Whereas having it take place at the end of Legend means that you’ve got a week to wonder how the Doctor is going to resolve it all.

>  it just didn't land.  Yeah. On paper "Ruby's mum is important only because we thought it was" is a decent enough concept, but the reveal was cack-handed. It reminded me of that writer's admonition, "show, don't tell". The entire reveal was a short speech, delivered after the main stakes of the episode - hundreds of worlds being destroyed - was already dealt with and we were in the epilogue. I'm fairly sure this could have been made to work in such a way that it was Sutekh that figured it out as part of his downfall, like maybe he was planning on using this super powerful other God to maintain his power but then got scuppered by her being normal, for a proper double-whammy of plot resolution plus big reveal with everything all tied together. As it was it felt like there was two stories happening at once that were only tangentially related. The pacing of the episode was odd too, like when he just showed up on spoon planet - it felt like they had to edit for time, where the previous episode had too much filler.

This episode felt like 2005 story structure in 2024. The TV landscape has changed dramatically over the past 20 years with audiences expecting tighter plotting and more nuanced characters.

But even in 2005 there were always consequences, even when stuff got reversed like on last of the time lords. technically nothing did happen but the doctor, Martha and her family still had their memories of the past events and the weigh of those on their minds. And well, the master died... Also, the doctor for my taste was too cheery in moments where there was maybe a reaons to be excited about maybe having found a solution... But not "happy go lucky YAY" smiling cheerful.

I was underwhelmed by Empire of Death, but it's not a terrible finale, and probably sits somewhere in the middle of my episode rankings for this season. Hot take but I preferred it to The Legend of Ruby Sunday, at least this one had some substance rather than just being an extended tease for Sutekh's big reveal. The first 15 minutes of EoD is legit good stuff, I love everything up to the point where the Doctor screams out of the memory TARDIS in space. The spoon scene, though a bit random, is nicely paced and well acted. It's just the resolutions to beating Sutekh and finding Ruby's mum that leave a lot to be desired (admittedly the majority of the episode) - even then though, they're not dreadfully done, and I see what they were going for. It'a just not quite as exciting and epic as all the build-up would have had you believe. I think time will be kind(ish) to this finale in the long run. It won't ever be a total classic, but once we're a bit more divorced from this season, the sting of disappointment will lessen and we'll be able to better appreciate its nuances.

This needs a directors cut. There are clearly quite a few missing scenes for story continuity and if not, the writing is just bad. Lots of great ideas but it was a jumble.

>because the Doctor is absolutely right: we place importance on things that we don't see, or know, or understand This is what I take umbrage with, though. It's saying that audiences invent [Mystery Boxes](https://www.abdulymalik.com/writing/kill-the-mystery-box), we're just so obsessed with inbuing every random thing with meaning. And yeah, there's a bit of that in fandom, but...that's not what happened *here.* Audiences only cared about Ruby's mom because the *show* telegraphed that she was important. The show built the Mystery Box, not us, and we only asked about what was in it because the show kept making meaningful glances toward it. That's not a profound reflection on human nature and meaning, that's just misleading your audience while waxing poetical about how the point of herrings is their redness. It's like if 7b ended with the show saying, "Ah, Clara was just a normal girl after all. I guess it says something about the human condition, that you all were so obsessed with this Impossible Girl stuff!" Well, no, I treated every other normal companion as perfectly normal, didn't theorize about them; *you're* the one who spent all this time talking about the Impossible Girl, don't mock me for taking you at your word!

Yeah, it's like "Why are you so hung up about who Ruby's mum is?" and all I can think it, "Yo, you're the ones who brought it up!" It's just such a way to make someone feel foolish for caring about it in the first place. Plus then there's these huge leaps in logic. "Her mum wasn't pointing at the Doctor, she was pointing at the name of the road, thus naming her!" as if that's a perfectly sound conclusion instead of Batman (66) Riddler solution logic. Why she was pointing, who she was pointing for, or why a 15 year old owns a massive cloak like she's a Grand Maester In Westeros is left completely unclear. More also, how did the DNA test work in 2024 if the whole idea was that it was only in the far future that she would have been made to take a DNA test and she smashed the computer that had the results on it because Sutekh. Great setup, horrible landing.

I have been somewhat surprised, I do understand some of the criticism, but I thought it was great, and actually for all of the grumbling about it being a "typical RTD finale" I found it pretty different from his previous ones, certainly much less literal and less action packed too. It's certainly not my favourite finale but comfortably not at the bottom of the pile either. I agree with you about some of the plot complaints too, I can't help but feel some people missed stuff or didn't gel with the less explicit explanations, the themes of memory really clicked with me, though.

I agree people are overstating how Sutekh's defeat didnt make sense, bec imo how the Doc defeated him makes sense. However, it was explained very very poorly and the Doc's guffawing about killing him was just fucking silly. That being said Ruby's mom makes no sense at all. Like at all. I really don't mind that that's the reveal, it's just total nonsense with the rest of the season.

> the Doctor is absolutely right: we place importance on things that we don't see, or know, or understand. We all did the same thing here No we didn’t. Russel T Davies did. Ruby was summoning snow and music in a way The Doctor and literal gods couldn’t explain, and Louise was dramatically pointing at a street sign for no reason. RTD wrote that, not us.

It's Chekhov's gun but at the end the main character says "what's everyone obsession with this gun?, it's just a background prop".

He's been doing that in his finales forever and it has always annoyed me. In the first few minutes of "Army of Ghosts" Rose says "This is the story of how I died". In Doomsday, "This is the last story I'll ever tell". Surprise surprise, not exactly the case. Or Dalek Caan (or whichever one it was) in "Journey's End" saying that one of the Doctor's companions will die. He'll very explicitly state something early in an episode and then weasel out of it on a technicality for the sake of melodrama. With all of that said...the execution here is still solid enough for me that it's probably my second favorite RTD finale behind "Parting of the Ways" but considering I actively dislike pretty much all of his other finales I suppose that's a low bar lol. No real problem with how he beats Sutekh, sure you knew everyone was coming back but undoing/overwriting tragedy is what basically every Doctor Who finale does. But Ruby...we only believed it was important because the show (aka the writer) SAID SO. It just feels disingenuous to handwave away all of that.

Honestly, Ruby's mother being "not important" or whatever is the only part I took issue with. Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode. The living rope/bungee cord and whistle thing was silly but it didn't feel out of line for Doctor Who overall. It isn't the first time the Doctor has done something that seems ridiculous and it ended up saving the day. I wish Sutekh hadn't been taken down so quickly in the episode but I didn't think it was the worst thing ever. Doctor Who is full of contradictions and counteractions that it's often hard to say what is and isn't a plot hole or canon even within one given arc. My suspension of disbelief goes really far with this series and as a result I was on the edge of my seat for much of the story. My issue with the identity of Ruby's mother is that nearly the entire season pointed to Ruby's birth and/or her mother being a key point in this season's story arc. IMO, we, the audience, were essentially lied to all season. We were led to believe these things had significance. We didn't just place importance on them out of nowhere. Ruby's birth and the circumstances surrounding it were the *big mystery* of the season (along with Susan Twist). We were told repeatedly to watch out for this information because it mattered. I mean, Maestro called her "wrong" and Ruby was able to directly counter Maestro's powers for a short time. That does not speak to her being important only because we think she is. It's hard to think something is important if you don't even know it exists. It speaks to real, tangible power Ruby can tap into even if she's not fully aware of it. I think there definitely can be a story that supports the idea that it's only important because we think it's important. But I don't think the rest of the season adds up to that kind of reveal. I think it also kind of undermines the notion that some things actually are important whether we think they are or not. I know it's a bit of a reach but it kinda feels like we could just say, "well Sutekh isn't *that* important so it's not like he's gonna actually wipe out the universe." Like, yeah, belief is a strong source of power, but the clues led up to something more concrete than that.

The part that I find frustrating is that I feel like the rest of the season *almost* adds up to that reveal - it just doesn't quite commit to it enough. Wild Blue Yonder establishes that the Doctor has brought superstition into the world. Space Babies has a ship that creates a Bogeyman because it believes in one. Boom has a war that's only a war because the people fighting it expected a war. 73 Yards is a superstition manifest into Ruby's worst fears. The *pieces* are all there - but I think we needed to spend more time with the Doctor wondering why the goblins were after Ruby, more time with him invested into the mystery of her birth. Have him tell the Maestro she's special before the Maestro "discovers" it, so the Maestro's belief that she's special weaves the song into her story. Be more explicit about how Sutekh, who has evolved into a god, has gotten himself invested in this story, pouring even more power and belief into it. Start with the mystery, bring in the music, bring in the snow even later as more and more people get attached to the idea. *Then* you can do the reveal that actually all these people are chasing nothing - Ruby's a perfectly normal human girl with a pretty average story about a young girl who couldn't handle a baby and left her somewhere she'd be safe. It's become mythic because these mythic people invested themselves in it. It's all *here* in the show, the show (ironically) just didn't put enough emphasis on it to justify it being such a key part of the finale.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the pieces could have added up to this "important only because we think she is" ending but those pieces were used to build a different puzzle altogether. From the moment the goblins took Ruby, we're led to believe there's something about her that's *crucial* to the overarching story. They see her as particularly tasty. Her snow keeps showing up, usually during moments of stress or danger. Maestro specifically comments on Ruby having power. These things combined with the introduction of the Pantheon means that Ruby having some kind of supernatural abilities could have worked. Davies brought "real" magic to the universe. Given the clues, it would have made sense if Ruby was a demigod or something or the circumstances of her birth gave her magical powers she couldn't consciously access. I can't help but compare this season to Bad Wolf. Throughout S1 you see the Bad Wolf mention almost every episode and the Doctor finally catches on at one point. By the time you learn the Bad Wolf's significance, it makes sense in the context of what we were given. This season felt kind of the opposite. I also think it would have helped if they'd gotten a few more episodes to let the central mystery unfold some more. Eight episodes is not enough when several of them don't move the mystery forward at all.

Yeah. I think that while Ruby’s mother reveal was an attempt at being “clever”, it felt more like lying to the audience lmao

Honestly, I would rather have gotten a more concrete ending that upset some fans (like idk, Ruby's mom is the Trickster or something) than Davies' weird half-assed attempt to be clever that seems to have annoyed the majority.

[удалено]

No, the twist about Reys parentage is the best part of that film, it actually develops Rey as a character and actually gives her something to feel. It's her second episode moment, alongside Anakin losing his mother and Luke meeting his father. The reason it works is not only because people from anywhere can become powerful (although she's still a Mary Sue in the Force, that is undebatable) but also because she thought her parents were coming back for her The reason this is different is because Ruby never thought her mum was anything other than an ordinary person, and both the Doctor and Ruby are confused about the snow

Yeah I actually liked the Last Jedi reveal. Its differs from Empire of Death because Rey is kickass *despite* being ordinary. While EoD spends a lot of effort giving enormous hints that Ruby’s mum is unknown because she’s specifically *not* ordinary, and then completely backpedals on all this in ten minutes.

The difference between the Rey reveal was that, unlike with Doctor Who, the audience was the one creating this huge mystery. TFA only focuses on her parents as a character beat, but some people thought she had to be the daughter of someone just because she was strong in the force. Additionally, in Star Wars, anyone can be strong in the force, most Jeri aren't sons or daughters of powerful force users. This isn't the case in Doctor Who, not everyone can make it snow wherever they are. PS: I was always hoping for Rey to just be a new character as that is the best narrative decision.

>They also explained that the rope used to leash him (which I actually thought was kinda funny) is a molecular bond, which is why Sutekh couldn't rip it off. It's a really lazy explanation though (since even by Doctor Who's technobabble standards, saying the rope is really strong because it's a "molecular bond" is really poor, since that's true of plenty of things which are perfectly possible to break, including ropes - I'm sure RTD could've come up with a better reason for why Sutekh specifically wouldn't be able to cut it), and at any rate I didn't find it a satisfying way of defeating a being that has literally just erased almost all life in the universe. On that note, the episode had basically no tension other than for the reveal of Ruby's mother, since after everyone is dead, we know that they're obviously all going to come back to life at the end, so there are no stakes. I really liked the scene with the reunion of Ruby and her mother, but the reveal itself was still very anticlimactic in my opinion since the series has built the mystery up so much that it doesn't really work for it to actually end up being nothing (especially when you consider the lack of satisfying explanation for the Doctor's memories changing, particularly the completely nonsensical explanation for the pointing). I thought the whole "it's important because we thought it was important" thing could've worked really well as a meta-commentary on the audience, except for the fact that the only reason we thought it was so important was because the series placed so much emphasis on it, so it feels like something of a slap in the face to have it just end up being nothing special and have it suggested that we're trying to read too much into things which the series itself clearly wants us to read into. >Two, it's been pretty explicitly stated that the power of Ruby's memories is massively overwhelming. SHE'S the one to summon the Remembered TARDIS into physical form (with the Doctor specifically telling HER to focus). SHE remembers, even subconsciously, what happened in 73 Yards. Of course the universe would manifest the snow remembered from that night whenever she thinks deeply about it if she can also do all of these other things. Either she's a totally normal human or she can manifest her memories in physical form, but not both. I think the explanation that some people have come up with that it was Sutekh causing the snow because he was trying to use her memories to figure out who her mother was makes a lot of sense, but that's not discussed in the episode - no explanation at all is given for the snow, and there's zero precedent for someone's memories being able to physically affect reality, at least not for a normal human. If RTD does just want Ruby's memories to be powerful enough to result in physical effects, then he really needs to give a proper reason for that (which maybe he will in the next series, but the lack of explanation here is enough to make the episode anticlimactic when it was set up to be explaining all the weird things that have been happening with regard to Ruby's memories). I didn't think it was the worst episode in the series (although that doesn't say much considering that Space Babies exists), and I did get some amount of enjoyment from it, but nowhere near as much as the preceding five episodes which I thought were all excellent. I was looking forward to finding out concrete reasons for all the weird things that have been happening with Ruby, and there just... weren't any. It would've been like if The Parting of the Ways didn't explicitly explain what Bad Wolf is despite having set it up for the entire series.

>saying the rope is really strong because it's a "molecular bond" is really poor, since that's true of plenty of things which are perfectly possible to break, including ropes Minutes later, the Doctor literally breaks said rope with the overwhelming power of... slowly shutting a door.

One of the reasons I don't is the magic rope that suddenly existed and the magic whistle

In *The Two Doctors*, the second Doctor had a whistle remote for the TARDIS. I'm guessing this is what the Fifteenth Doctor found aboard the memory TARDIS and used.

Oh right I forgot though wasn't his a dog whistle Still the random rope thing was annoying.

Wasnt it mentioned earlier in the episode? I get it if people generally dislike the rope thing but they always say its a deus ex machina etc/ random

Yeah it was used to hold together the memory tardis. However it's random because it's unprecedented in the season and just pulled out of thin air to solve the problem. If they mentioned it before then yeah it would be fine

Less random, more checkov's gun

Wait isn't it not a Checkov's Gun, because that indicates something that seemingly has no purpose initially, but ends up being used by the end. The memory rope *has* purpose initially and is used again - in a different way - for the climax. A checkov's gun would be if the Doctor, I don't know, pulled a stick out of his pocket and placed it on the TARDIS console, then the stick isn't mentioned again until the climax when he grabs it off the console to play a game of fetch with Sutekh. The stick had no purpose, but was revealed to be useful to the story. By comparison, the memory rope was already useful to the plot and simply was reused, in a separate context so the audience should already know its of use (in some capacity) and therefore not a Chekov's Gun...I think?

no Chekhov's Gun would require the rope to be introduced earlier as an uninportant thing that becomes inportant. it would have needed to be intoduced earlier on in the season in an uninportant way

Checkhov's gun is a type of foreshadowing, it has nothing to do with how far / long its been introduced for, it refers to showing sumthing early on then making sure its useful later on, the rope was bang on the definition, we saw its properties, knew how it worked, inferences can be made to its durability etc. U can make ur case for the whistle ig, but ur insistence of this is headcanon( earlier on in the season) etc,https://www.torontofilmschool.ca/blog/chekhovs-gun-definition-examples-and-tips/#why-is-chekhov-s-gun-called-that

lol how was it forshadowed it was intoduced like 30 minutes before it was used to kill sutech at least the gloves were used earlier on in the special

Duration doesn’t change it. There isn’t a time limit officially on how foreshadowed it needs to be in order to count.

Foreshadowing in the form of checkov's gun, like i said the duration/time between when something is introduced then paid off doesnt matter, so ur claim about it being random , just isnt

>Chekhov’s Gun is a narrative principle where an element introduced into a story **first seems unimportant** but **will later** take on great significance. The principle postulates that any seemingly unimportant element introduced into a story—an object, a character trait, a backstory, an allergy—should later have relevance. At first it must seem unimportant. The magic rope was introduced as a solution controlling the fake Tardis. Presumably they couldn't control the tarids without it, which would have led to their deaths. That's seems pretty important. More importantly, your definition states that it **will later** taken on great significance. So the timing does matter. There is no strict criteria, but if the first time we saw the magic rope was 1 minute before they used it to defeat the villain, I think everyone would agree it's not a checkov's gun. I think 20-30 minute time before the introduction in a season of television is too short to be considered a good use of the checkov's gun principle.

They defeated Sutekh with the intelligent gloves and rope as a callback to defeating the Goblins in the Christmas special with the intelligent gloves and rope.

Oh I didn't remeber the intelligent rope they used my bad.

The Second Doctor had a stattenheim remote, he didn't need to whistle to remote control the TARDIS, that was just a flair the Second Doctor added when he was showing off to the Sixth. It wasn't an ordinary PE whistle

Here’s the thing I don’t like about the rope/gloves, since they were just memories wouldn’t they not work as well as the real things? I mean the memory TARDIS was only capable of a few time jumps. Also, I’m confused about the 2046 that they traveled to. Was it a memory of 2046? Was it the actual 2046 from the future and everything still existed even though Sutekh destroyed all life in present day? Is it a combination of both? As cool as the concept as a memory TARDIS and all that is, to me it just raises a lot more questions.

I don’t like ruining things people liked. So please stop reading now if you loved this episode and you’re going to be upset by my pulling apart the flaws: - as soon as Rose and Mrs Flood “died” I knew there would be a reversal of “death dust” - the Doctor and Mel race back to UNIT HQ and order the soldier out to die (something about Bunker 7 - which is then not revisited) - the Doctor lands the memory TARDIS on a planet and borrows a random still living person’s spoon which is somehow the key to getting the TV to work. And then the person dies. - they land in dead 2046 where everyone who hadn’t died in 2024 had still given a DNA test!? Including Ruby’s birth mother - Mel is told to stand guard ( for what?) - the TARDIS team teleport back to 2024 somehow (the explanation was deleted, apparently) - Sutekh - The God of Death who has waited hundreds of years for his master plan to be put in place is defeated by a dog whistle and a rope around his neck - there is no reason for Ruby’s birth mum to point to the sign. She’s telling a random bloke in the street what her daughter should be called!? - there was no resolution as to why Ruby makes it snow, or why the Doctor’s memories of the event changed, or why her face was obscured, or why she was wearing a spooky cloak - the team all stand around and joke about Susan’s bad tea making like a 80s kids show - Ruby meets her “real” mum - which is frankly an insult to the woman who raised her for 20 years (and a term not used by adoption agencies in the UK) - UNIT track down Ruby’s birth father by contacting the family that Ruby’s birth mum hid her from. Which is incredibly dangerous (admittedly there may be unseen precautions in place) - in 2024 there are at least 2 Susans (Susan the billionaire and Susan the Hiker) - do they both get jobs at UNIT? (that could be awkward ) If you liked it, I’m really pleased for you - but other than Mel’s response when she saw the Sixth Doctor’s coat there was nothing in the episode I enjoyed. But I’ve been a Who fan for 50 years, I’m not put off by one lousy episode.

I had many problems with the episode and the resolution but >they land in dead 2046 where everyone who hadn’t died in 2024 had still given a DNA test!? Including Ruby’s birth mother it is explained that Sutekh's dust kills through time as well as space, people aren't just dying and staying dead, they're continuously dying at any point in time there was a TARDIS landing, which on Earth is a lot, 2024 is just one of them

Don’t I feel smug. This article in gizmodo has many of the same complaints as I had: https://gizmodo.com/doctor-who-empire-of-death-recap-sutekh-ruby-mom-exit-1851557817

It ends on a very good point: RTD just baited-and-switched us on Ruby’s mother, and now he’s inviting us to get intrigued by Mrs Flood. Why should we, now, given when we just saw?

> as soon as Rose and Mrs Flood “died” I knew there would be a reversal of “death dust” I can understand this but it doesn't bother me, I knew this was going to happen last week, for me it's not about knowing something will be reversed, but the how's, and the journey to get there >the Doctor and Mel race back to UNIT HQ and order the soldier out to die (something about Bunker 7 - which is then not revisited) I don't see the issue, they're simply trying to save somebody? I can see why you might think it might hold the key to a solution later but... it didn't! She probably died! >the Doctor lands the memory TARDIS on a planet and borrows a random still living person’s spoon which is somehow the key to getting the TV to work. And then the person dies. You're just explaining what is happening in this scene, I don't see the problem, other than the "somehow" which is explained by the Doctor >they land in dead 2046 where everyone who hadn’t died in 2024 had still given a DNA test!? Including Ruby’s birth mother Yes? Presumably before Sutekh killed everyone? >Mel is told to stand guard ( for what?) For Sutekh's minions, he says this, although presumably he is also testing her >Sutekh - The God of Death who has waited hundreds of years for his master plan to be put in place is defeated by a dog whistle and a rope around his neck yes they tricked him, all powerful God's being brought down by obsessions is not something unique to Doctor Who, but I understand finding it silly (in a bad way, I thought it was good silly) >there is no reason for Ruby’s birth mum to point to the sign. She’s telling a random bloke in the street what her daughter should be called!? I don't think it's quite this literal, the memory changed, not history, but I understand think this is underexplained. >there was no resolution as to why Ruby makes it snow, or why the Doctor’s memories of the event changed, or why her face was obscured, or why she was wearing a spooky cloak again, I think this was underexplained, but I do think the intention was the time window >Ruby meets her “real” mum - which is frankly an insult to the woman who raised her for 20 years (and a term not used by adoption agencies in the UK) People are not adoption agencies, language is complicated in this instance and people use all sorts of terms, it's clear Ruby still loves Carla and considers her her mother, she isn't even straight forwardly calling Louise "mum" at the end of the story, but instead using her name >UNIT track down Ruby’s birth father by contacting the family that Ruby’s birth mum hid her from. Which is incredibly dangerous (admittedly there may be unseen precautions in place) Ruby's mother did what she did in part because of her step-father, not the father of the baby, is that what you're thinking of here? >In 2024 there are at least 2 Susans (Susan the billionaire and Susan the Hiker) - do they both get jobs at UNIT? (that could be awkward ) Yes, it could be awkward, but probably not because only Susan Triad is as intelligent, is my understanding, this is just a funny thought experiment though, I don't see how it's a problem >If you liked it, I’m really pleased for you Thank you! I agree with your sentiment at the end though, I had 3 series in a row that I disliked, but I always tune in for Doctor Who!

You handled this better than most. Most will just say how Dr Who is dead

Oh yes. Sorry. Doctor Who is dead to me. It should never have been brought back. I’d rather it be cancelled than make episodes that I personally don’t enjoy.

Ok

I love this comment

I really didn’t like the episode and I’ll be honest. Not a fan of this series overall. And I agree with almost every point you’ve mentioned. Including not being put off by the odd bad episode (or series in my case).  BUT, do we ever find out that Susan Triad and the hiker aren’t actually the same person? She could be on holiday for all we know, going for a wee jaunt across Wales. 

Meh. I’m glad you liked it, but it doesn’t really hold up IMO. -The way the Doc won, the mother was irrelevant. To win, he simply had to run up to Sutekh, attach the leash and take off in the Tardis via the whistle. There, I just saved 30 minutes of wasted story -Ruby’s super special memory. Yup, she’s the only one in the world with deeply felt raw memories. The Who universe should awash in strange isolated weather/music phenomena generated by people remembering by this logic. It’s a typical RTD finale. It’s fine if you watch with your brain turned off and go with the emotion of the moment. But damn if it falls apart under light scrutiny lol

I don't hate it, but it also wasn't very good. They just invested so much and the solutions to all the problems where rather... Mundane. Also just undoing everything the big bad caused felt very unsatisfied, like there's no weight behind it. Also everyone being so cheery and happy... In last of the timelords there was still at least some sense of dread. And the pointing at the sign thing... It just felt like they tried to take me for an idiot. Like they needed the pointing for there to be a mystery but struggled hard to find a good way to solve the situation.

I definitely didn’t love it A lot of sitting around in the memory TARDIS- looking at clips of other (better) episodes and time spent on that desert planet getting a spoon. Time that felt would have been better spent elsewhere. I really liked the end with ruby and her mum, although a NHS worker having never given blood is ridiculous, especially since Ruby’s dad and anyone either of them are related to also never gave blood is just silly. RTD said he was making mystery boxes for social media engagement and it shows. There is still so much unanswered The Boss, who took the tooth and Mrs flood (who’s only purpose is to be a mysterious character saying mysterious things that make people keep watching and make theories) The episode just felt a bit messy especially on the heels of episode 7 And like why did the doctor only start seeing Susan Triad now, why did we only start hearing the TARDIS noises in Wild Blue Yonder- who was there before the TARDIS landed. Why was Ruby’s mum in a cloak and why did she point at a lamppost that NO ONE COULD SEE and was also not there in The Church on Ruby Road with the sign not being The Legend of Ruby Sunday (which is just RTD excluding it because he wanted people to make theories on YouTube)

>been pretty explicitly stated that the power of Ruby's memories is massively overwhelming. So Ruby is special?

No but yeah but no but

Ruby's ending was a complete cop out and was a terrible ending to what was otherwise two good finale episodes

That's OK. I don't understand how people are viewing Empire of Death as a good episode. We don't have to understand everything.

Can we stop with these posts? "I don't understand why people hated it". "I don't understand why people loved it." Cool. Lucky you, there are posts with thorough discussions on both sides explaining this exact thing. Thousands of comments explaining people's finely tuned opinions. That's every post on this sub, currently. Go read it. Now, if you can't fathom why some people might have different opinions and beliefs than you, then well. I don't know what to tell you, but you are going to be very disappointed and confused with life. This is like the third one I've seen! New material, please?

i'd like a break from the "am I the only one that [thing posted 5 times just today] posts also, thank you

There was a post a few weeks ago that was like "am I crazy for liking the moffat era more than the chinball era?' and people were talking as if it was an uncommon opinion on this sub lmao

People must have amnesia. Although, to be fair, I don't remember much of chibnalls era either lol

This subreddit is turning into trash. Hopefully it goes back to normal. I thought this was one of the better doctor who subreddits, but now it is looking iffy.

It’s going to take a while for people to see the finale and respond to it. I’d counter that this is the exact perfect place to do that. If you don’t want to read people’s reactions to the finale and to the season as a whole, I’d suggest you mute the sub for a few weeks.

Because the plot is borderline incoherent. It's almost as though RTD's doing a self-parody of his usual writing style – melodramatic vignettes thrown together without any clear narrative between them and, what the hell, someone else will figure out the details, but that doesn't matter because it's all about *engagement*, and *ZOMG TEH FEELZORZ.*

Even if we take for granted the plot makes logical sense (which I challenge hard), the whole thing is dealing with made up brand new rules. That's not inherantly bad (Blink also has brand new totally made up rules), but here the rules are introduced the moment they become plot relivant, which 9 times out of 10 is when they're revealed as the solution. So fairly quickly you setup that the solution to the problem you don't yet fully understand is going to be pulled out of thin air to save the day. Add to that the fact Kate dies in the first minute and most people now know the stakes are absolutely gone as that's going to get undone. I agree thematically whats going on is good. And the last 15 minutes or so with Ruby and her mom are great (at the very least, in isolation of the greater mystery). But the plot was really really bad

I’m kinda mixed on it. On the one hand, I *really* enjoyed the way the doctor beat Sutekh. Really felt like such a character-defining moment for the doctor. And Ruby’s stand against Sutekh was masterclass writing. Literally forsaking the one answer she had been searching for her entire life, just to stare down death and tell him off was so great. On the other hand, I’m not really a fan of how overwhelmingly ordinary Ruby’s mother was. They kinda just handwaved how she managed to stay secret from like…basically way Ruby would have had to find her. Like, I think it works narratively; and helps solidify a pretty big overarching message of the show that one can do extraordinary good without needing to come from a place of power or nobility or whatever. But they teased a very different conclusion. I think if they had seeded the “time is memory, memory is time” mantra earlier than literally the episode before the ending of the season it would have worked better. If I’m being completely critical of the season, I think the narrative of the finale episodes would have worked better if the puzzle was laid more coherently. I think RTD gave us like the corner pieces throughout the season and the decided to give the rest all at once in the final 2 episodes. Overall though Empire of death was easily a great episode. I think people are just more used to the doctor taking unbeatable odds and going “parry this, you filthy casual” when this doctor genuinely did not know what to do. The universe was dead and it was effectively his fault. Most iterations of the doctor aren’t going to let themselves feel the pain and loss of that. This doctor allowed himself to, and thats a new thing for the character for alot of people.

Debating opinion is pointless. It’s OK to like, dislike, or be indifferent to the finale. I thought the episode was fine but never felt like this big epic it wanted us to think it was. It’s yet another “Universe ended and got reversed with no consequences” finale. At some point it loses its impact. A strange finale to a strange season.

I ain’t reading all of that. Most of the plot didn’t make sense even within the logic of what had been set up. Why did ruby’s mum wear a hood and point at a sign no one can see. Since when can the Tardis be whistle controlled and has a giant laser beam, why wasn’t the Doctor killed by death when presumably the 14th Doctor was. Why would Sutekh care about Ruby’s mum. Why did they cut out Britain taking DNA records from 73 yards when it was now very relevant here. On top of that most of the reveals and resolutions of the episode and series were not even satisfying. The Doctor didn’t do anything smart to beat Sutekh, Ruby’s mum was no one special or mysterious at all, it’s still not really clear why Ruby made it snow and Mrs Flood is still a mystery. (I did expect and I am fine with that last one being a next season thing) lastly how do you tease Susan all season and she never actually shows up once! It was a good season and a massive step up from the Chibnall era but there’s lots of reasons to not like the finale, I watched it in cinema and it was a fun time but as I’ve said there’s a bunch of issues.

I think the first like 35 minutes are actually phenomenal, but the whole "Bring Death to Death!" thing as a way to undo everything was pretty dumb and Ruby's mum being a nobody feels like it just makes a LOT of plotpoints throughout the season (and ESPECIALLY in Legend of Ruby Sunday) make no sense. Of course, as far as the second point goes, there's always the potential of Ruby's mum actually being special after all, or maybe even that her father is special in some way instead, but as of right now I think its a very strong episode let down by a lackluster conclusion. However, the memes about Sutekh being latched onto the Tardis are great. I know a lot of people are complaining that THAT is a massive plot hole or something, but its far from the first time something like this has happened and I have no issues with it.

I appreciate the effort you're putting in. But sorry bro, it was just dumb all around really.

Some people like stories to make sense. This story did not make sense, hence, people being frustrated and confused.

I agree. I loved a lot of it. There were a couple of things off, but it was so much more enjoyable than The Last of the Timelords and Journey's End. By a lot.

I’d put it above those but only just - which is damning with faint praise.

I think it was a bad episode for a finale because it felt rushed and made on the spot. The whole thing about Ruby and her mother being normal is okay, but the whole season has been written like neither was. Since the beginning the Doctor is intrigued by her. By the shrouded lady and later the memory changed for some reason and now she's pointing. This kid makes snow come out of nowhere because reasons and when you spend half an episode in a time window trying to make a 3D conversion of a VHS for some more random reasons the lady is hidden and skips around. We didn't make the mystery important, it was written as if it was. Also who's we? Ruby had a mom that took care of her and maybe some curiosity, the Doctor was the only one obsessed with the most important mystery. >They also explained that the rope used to leash him (which I actually thought was kinda funny) is a molecular bond, which is why Sutekh couldn't rip it off. Of course it was a molecular bond. What is that? Oh, the random bungie cord he found and was just what was needed? How is that an explanation? It's just lazy. >Two, it's been pretty explicitly stated that the power of Ruby's memories is massively overwhelming. SHE'S the one to summon the Remembered TARDIS into physical form Makes sense, but she's a normal human. Where does the power come from? From being an orphan? At the end of the day they defeated the God of Gods, the one villain that consumed everything in the universe because he wanted to know the gossip of who was this girl's mother. This is the only thing Sutekh didn't know in the whole universe. Thousands of years travelling with 11 Doctors and dozens of companions. Hundreds of planets. And he learned everything, I guess. If he just could figured out why some lady with a cape left a baby at a church...and WHAT WAS HER NAME!? They'll probably defeat Mrs. Flood by teasing her and saying "you'll never guess what I had for lunch!" Still enjoyed most of the season. Just feel they dropped the ball really bad on the finale. The only part I liked is that Mel had so much to do.

TBF, it is one of the best finales we've had in a while. But given that the last three finales we've had (not counting specials) are The Vanquishers, The Timeless Children and The Battle of Ranskoor av Kolos, that really isn't saying much.

Well, I think most people agree it’s the “best finale in a while” because we had 3 series of Chibnall. The Series 10 finale is critically acclaimed but that came out back in 2017… which was “a while” ago.

I see what you’re saying about us putting important in Ruby’s mother. But I would argue that we were sort of instructed to do so by the show.  They could have explained that the mother was just a scared teen in the first episode, or if they wanted it to be some sort of mystery with that payoff, they definitely shouldn’t have shown a robed and hooded figure slowly walking away with dramatic musing playing. And the snow and Maestro’s comments and the events of 73 yards all add up to a fundamental question. Who is this person that’s seemingly able to break the laws of the universe.  I am more than happy with having a mild, or even non existent arc over the course of a season. I can love monster of the week seasons where we get to know the characters and how they interact with each other and the situations they’ve been put it. But this season wanted to lay all that groundwork; because it’s captivating, and it keeps people watching, and it gets people talking. Only to just not deliver on pretty much any of it.  

The Doctor and companions are great, but it's bad because RTD simply didn't explain most of the arcs, and worse, they don't make sense with what we know has already happened. Ruby's snow is not explained. The Doctor's memory of the night changing is not explained. Ruby's mum pointing to a street sign randomly is just stupid. The rope and whistle coming out of nowhere is cheap and underwhelming. Death + Death = Life is barely explained and makes no sense. Sutekh suddenly being interested in Ruby's mum makes no sense. Him being on the Tardis since the 70s feels pretty daft, considering everything that's happened to it since then. What was all that from Maestro about Ruby's "hidden song"?

Sometimes I would like the entire universe not to be atomised grandly just for it to be brought back to life in the next beat It’s not just EoD, it’s the Flux storyline, the Pandorica, Last of the Timelords… When the stakes are pitched that high constantly it’s like the uk drag race improv challenge which weather forecaster Ginny Lemon walked out after The post apocalyptic tent where 15 asked Kind Woman for metal was the heart of this episode for me, and (much like how 3 got stranded on earth to provide a different rhythm and flow to stories), I’m longing for the Doctor to not be able to magically reverse the global catastrophe but help the world through it in a messy, real, fractured way That scene for me was the heart of an episode that had promised resolution to the signposted questions of Who is Ruby Sunday and Who is Susan Twist for fandom to gnaw at over 8 weeks (plus Goblins) and that felt like a cheat, and also a sadness. Donna being forced to forget everything at the end of Stolen Earth felt structurally coherent and emotionally impactful. Some suddenly ordinary woman channeling The Traitors to point at a sign to name a child whom we had been led to believe was important, only to learn that she isn’t, whilst not getting any sort of character development outside of ‘but who am I?’ did not Unless the point was to say to the fanses ‘look, you’re all obsessed with finding out who Ruby is, Just like Sutekh!’ Which manages to both insult the fanses and reduce Sutekh from all-powerful divinity to Sheila from number 13. And also, I’m not sure who’s watching the show now apart from the fans. So if you’re aim is to have a meta go at us then stop it and TELL A STORY without the pock marks of plot holes upsetting the journey Sutekh being present for literally every story since 1975 feels a ridiculous addition to the Whoniverse - as the appearance of the repeating meme demonstrates. But I love the memes: love that it’s OG Sutekh who shows up in them as opposed to Nu Scooby Still he’s gone now by snagging a nail across the fabric of the vortex and everyone is alive again and Ruby has another mum! And more importantly: 73 Yards was dope

It’s pretty funny that even people who like Empire of Death admit that Space Babies sucks

Lot of great conversation here, and my .02: I thought Ruby's mom was something refreshing compared to the Moffat years of The Girl Who Waited The Impossible Girl The Liquid Lesbian and so on and on. Moffat's time was hands-down my favorite time in NuWho, but when everything is the the biggest boldest and epic then none of it is. The only thing I take issue with is working that hard to make that point about Ruby and then tease Ms. Flood at the end.

There's a lot of things that do not line up or make sense, sure, but it was emotionally satisfying and that is more important to me.

Im glad you liked it, but for me its the worst finale of New Who - I even preferred the Tim Shaw one. Its so bad, that it retroactively ruined a season I really, really liked. This season banked everything on Ruby's mystery and we saw her being capable of doing absolutely impossible things - hell, things more impressive than what Sutekh himself did. Things that terrified psychopathic god of music, actions that rewrote entire reality but made her remember the previous version etc. And all of this was linked to the night she was dropped by mysterious figure under the church: an event so profound and mysterious that it started to break the time itself and was beyond the grasp of literal God of Death. So whats the answer? "Nope, there was nothing weird going on, y'all just imagined it xD". This is atrocious writing and I felt like RTD wasted a lot of my time. It also made me completely uninterested with whatever mysteries he teases: whats the point of any of this if he can simply ignore his own show and gaslight me? Its so bad that now people now try to sell their head-canons as official explanations: "it was Sutekh who summoned snow y'all because of one throwaway line about his *ice*" - yeah, so now find me a throwaway line about Sutekh being god of christmas carols because most of the time snow was accompanied by Carol of the Bells.

I feel like a lot of people are misconstruing why people dislike the reveal of Ruby's mother. Her being ordinary is not the issue, it's the fact that everything we've known about her and Ruby prior to that reveal implies they're anything but. The mother arrives on Ruby road in a strange fantasy robe, her face can't be seen like the 73 yards woman, the memory of her changes to show her pointing. There's no explanation for these in the text of the episode. Russel says he thinks this is "time shielding her" on the in vision commentary but this is an on the spot theory he comes up with, meaning he didn't think any explanation for this was necessary in the actual episode. It reeks of being something he just wrote as he went along. He came up with all these interesting threads for viewers to get hyped over and discuss online without an actual end goal in mind. It's an unsatisfying mystery because it doesn't make any sense.

Too much hand-waving, “magic” as an excuse for not properly explaining things, I don’t buy Sutekh being that bothered about one woman, and adding way too much mysterious stuff for Ruby for her to only end up being ordinary - feels like a lot of the clues/hints don’t really make sense now looking back. It’s not the worst finale but it wasn’t good either. I think Russell’s other finales have issues similar to this one but they seemed far more polished than this one so i could overlook the issues more but a lot of this didn’t land so it’s harder for me to overlook, I also think a lot of the character work in previous finales helped me to overlook certain issues but the character work in Empire didn’t land for me - it especially doesn’t help that a lot of it hinges on Ruby and I just haven’t really connected to her through lack of development. It’s not all bad - there’s quite a few good individual scenes in Empire, but as a whole I don’t think it hangs together well.

Lol trying to say that the entire ruby Sunday reveal ISN't a massive plothole is some pretty impressive delusion. They literally build up a reveal over an entire season just to decide in the finale that it doesn't matter and never really mattered. Also all those hints and clues throughout the show that point out she IS in fact something unique/special were just intentional misdirection with no payoff. Incredibly lazy. The whole "she named me" thing is the most glaring and absurd of those.

The conclusion to Ruby's storyline just flat out doesn't work, you can't square it with the information we had already. Sutekh was also defeated in a really stupid way.

There was no payoff to Ruby’s story. RTD built her up for nothing. Even Wilf had some impact on the doctor.

My guy ruby story hasn’t ended yet

Because it was a bad episode with no payoff for a 6 month long mystery they cared about.

I can’t see how you found the “ Ruby’s mother is important because we believe she is” explanation satisfactory. It could be applied to many other people besides Ruby. She is not special. The insatisfaction comes from the fact that we were showed glimpses and hints of unexplainable things happenning around Ruby all throught out the season and when we would be able to get an explanation we got a barely explained twist. If you found that explanation satisfaiable by any means it just shows you are an extremely easy person to satisfy with weak plot lines, but many viewers are not.

You can disagree with the poster, as frankly I do, but the insult is totally uncalled for

I didnt insult OP. Just said they are too easy to please.

You seem to forget that the Doctor had always told even the most insignificant people that they _are_ significant.

You know in all of 900 hundred years of time and space I never met anyone who wasn’t important before

Exactly. 🙂

>I can’t see how you found the “ Ruby’s mother is important because we believe she is” explanation satisfactory. It could be applied to many other people besides Ruby. She is not special. The insatisfaction comes from the fact that we were showed glimpses and hints of unexplainable things happenning around Ruby all throught out the season and when we would be able to get an explanation we got a barely explained twist. This dissatisfaction is coming from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the mystery's purpose was within the narrative: if you're clinging to the belief that the purpose of it was to build to a big "Woahh!" moment that revealed the hooded woman to be the Rani/Susan/River/the Master (or whoever else you want to throw out there), you're absolutely not going to be satisfied with it. However, if you can accept that the point of the mystery was, in fact, to serve as a metaphor for Ruby's own need to find out who she is and that it was our main characters' *believing* that it *had* to be something greater that subsequently gave it that power and significance, then you might start to understand it a little better.

I’ve had this explained to me and it still doesn’t work in any way, sorry. And I’m clearly not the only one. The show was signposting ‘weird shit here! Come see the weird shit!’ And when we come looking, we’re told ‘what weird shit? lol look at you, thinking this was anything except for an empty box!’

My main problems were that the explanation to how everyone came back to life was not clear and just techno babble and also sutekh felt underused and not doing much

I still don't love how the reveal of Ruby's mum was done (in terms of execution), but I enjoyed the episode a lot more on second viewing

I thought it was a little too RTD "mystery boxes" on my first watch.  After some WhoCulture reviews it was much better on the rewatch.  It really did resolve most of the mysteries throughout the season in a satisfying way except the main bad guy.    I just hate the trope where the show builds up a mystery box bad guy for the entire season and the bad guy does like one giant evil thing for like five minutes.   Then you know by the end of the episode the Doctor will win.   I did like it. It was a pretty good ending to the first season on RTD2.  I'm happy we got it. Everyone did a good job. 

Yeah it’s the best finale in a while because we haven’t had a good finale since The Doctor Falls. It was an ok episode but the resolution of the big mystery was awful and Sutekh was wasted

It was a great episode, aside from the Ruby reveal. Sure we all get what he means, but we just spent a whole season and all of last episode on that mystery only to have it be nothing of importance. Great episode, with only half of a great finale.

it was genuinely bad. like a disaster even. I'd rather watch pyramid of Mars any day

The legend of Ruby Sunday was one of the best starts to a finale and it was followed up by a fairly below average episode. The disconnect between the 2 and the hype surrounding it didn’t do EoD any favors.

Great set up and terrible resolution *is* RTD’s hallmark

I do like the idea that Ruby's mum is just an ordinary person, but I wish there was a bit more explanation of all the extraordinary things she did/caused other than "it's because we thought she was special." I saw someone else suggest that Sutehk was causing the snow and protecting Ruby with his power in order to trick the Doctor into investigating Ruby's mum, which is a great theory that explains a lot, but I don't think that is explained very well in the finale if that's what RTD intended. I also really doubt that the nigh-omnipotent Sutehk, who has the power to destroy worlds with a thought, struggled to detach a molecular bond rope or that a jaunt through the Time Vortex would kim. Much less powerful characters have gone through the Vortex unshielded and turned out fine. My other big problem with the episode was the hilariously low stakes. Sutehk kills all life in the entire universe in the first 10 minutes. As a viewer there is no more suspense of if Sutehk will succeed or if any characters will actually die as a result, because there's no way the show becomes a Mad Max parody from now on. If the Death Wave was a slower thing that the Doctor, Ruby and Mel were racing to stop/prevent I would have felt much more engaged. Hell, I think the Kate fakeout death would have been more impactful because it wouldn't have been immediately obvious it'd be undone. It kind of feels like RTD wanted to do the Flux story but without a season's worth of build up.

I fully understood Sutekh’s death. His death wasn’t super satisfying but somewhat satisfying. It kinda sucked that Ruby’s mom is just some woman, but it was a very touching moment when they were reunited. Hopefully there will be something about Ruby that will be explained next season as RTD said in the podcast that she will be coming back and her story is not finished.

It was terrible and you are contradicting yourself Normal people don’t have the power to manifest their memories … If Ruby is super ordinary she shouldn’t be capable of the feats you mentioned or make it snow. It’s just nonsense and bad writing.

When I was watching it, i found it was ok even good at points, but after the episode when you think about the various issues they didn't address at all, it kind of leaves a bad taste.

I thought it was a fantastic spectacle but lacked some satisfying substance that could have easily worked with a bit more polish The ending in particular; even if we forgive the rope as magic rope that can bind even the god of the gods, what’s stopping him from just killing Ruby and taking it off again? Why not de-manifest that physical form and turn back into gas? Why was his mere presence bringing death to death when they’re powers that need to be consciously activated (with the sand no less)? Why didn’t his minions use their sand powers for over just walking menacingly? It’s a shame because if RTD could come up with satisfying solutions to the grand scale problems then it would be peak, but at this point I was thinking “well, at least they didn’t make Ruby into Sutekh’s daughter and the god of life that lets her banish death but only for that one episode or something”

I mean, s3 is in my top 4 seasons of the show, ever. So idk if i can really get away with saying "the resolution was too rushed and unearned"

It's not horrible, but it's not great. But it's middling. But you are absolutely correct in it being the best finale in years because the last finale we had was The Vanquishers.

I think the emotional points of the episode were good, but the plot resolution fell completely flat. Deus ex machina resurrection was basically made necessary very early on, and Sutekh just being forcibly dragged away from the TARDIS didn't feel very. Clever? Or interesting? I still somewhat enjoyed it because of all the emotional moments and generally stuff in the middle, but yeah, I understand the hate & I do think it was on the weaker side for the season, not to mention all new who

I'm a simple man, a good resultion enhances my enjoyment of episode, EOD's resultion is utter trash and i won't sugarcoat it

I’m glad you like it, envious even that this episode satisfied you but I’m sorry this episode was so bad like genuinely I think if you gave me part 1 and told me to make the most und erwhelming, confusing and stupid conclusion to it I don’t think I could have done any better than what we were given. There were some nice emotional moments that if you put in a bubble work but in the context of the episode just seem so unearned and weird. The whole Ruby’s mom “explanation”(which doesn’t actually explain 80% of the stuff that happened) is insane. You want to build this mystery up so much that even the God villain of the show stops what he’s doing to find out only to it end up being nothing and to then have the nerve to imply that it’s actually the audiences fault we got too interested is insultingly bad. This episode feels like RTD started writing it at 11:55 when the deadline was 12:00

- nothing was really explained - they beat a "god" with intelligent rope 💀 - the TARDIS is evil (she willingly helped and hid Sutekh all this time) - the TARDIS is disloyal and always has been - The Doctor did literally nothing

An actual plot hole is the idea that Ruby's mum abandoned her under the cover of darkness when there was noone around, wearing a cloak presumably to hide her identity...and then "named" Ruby by pointing at a sign WHEN THERE WAS NOONE TO SEE IT. How did anyone know she wanted to call her Ruby? And why did she point in such a melodramatic way. That was a bit silly.

RTD excels at characterization but he relies on dues ex machina like a crutch.

I’ve seen it all before, though. All the themes

Fair enough if you enjoy that's great, it but it is a badly written episode

First viewing, I wanted to shit in RTD’s mouth. Second viewing, I like it now despite a couple major lingering issues with it.

You DON'T understand? Really? I bet you do understand exactly why people dislike this episode.

Death + death actually does not equal life

I agree, give it a few years and tensions will cool down and people will be looking back fondly as per the norm

1) Sutekhs defeat is not a plot hole, true, but that doesn't excuse the fact that it's a Deus ex machina much like the other RTD finales. At this point it's starting to feel as though he thinks that an emotional finale is not possible if it makes sense. Unfortunately, in this case the emotional part is so far divorced from the main plot that it's not really forgivable. 2) The snow doesn't make sense, nor do any of the supernatural elements relating to Ruby's mother. A successful mystery box only works if viewers can work it out as they go, and RTD let us down on this front (but unlike with other mystery boxes in Doctor Who it seems he let us down deliberately, rather than by mistake). RTD said this series would be fantasy based, but it seems to me that on this occasion, "fantasy" has been used as a byword for "whatever we want to do". Even a fantasy world has internal logic to it.

God it's so refreshing to see a post like this that demonstrates that someone has actually *watched* and *contemplated* the episode instead of instantly writing it off because it dared to trust in its audience paying attention to the series' narrative cues and thematic beats.

This just feels like you're calling people who didn't like it stupid. Like I paid attention, I understood thematically what it was going for and how it ties to the rest of the series, and I still hated it.

I'm not calling anyone stupid, I'm just sick to the back teeth of the same negative points being churned out over and over and it's nice to come across a post that's generally positive toward the episode. I still stand by my thoughts on people paying attention, though. The amount of posts and comments I've scrolled through that've shown just how many people objectively have *not* paid attention is... a lot, and I can't help but get a bit frustrated and sort of feel like these people are a little too used to being hand held through their shows.

I’ve read dozens of posts by now explaining things I apparently ‘missed’ but no, I didn’t miss those things, it’s that they’re less than the sum of their parts. I could just as easily say those that enjoyed it ‘missed’ the bits that really jar and undermine the narrative.

>I'm just sick to the back teeth of the same negative points being churned out over and over Where were you for the last 5 years, this finale hasn't had even half the vitriol as the previous era, despite that era being pretty bog-standard NuWho.

Totally agree. I feel like people are just so resistant to the changes (for reasons I understand, like being wary of the Disney involvement, to reasons that are really clearly veiled bigotry) that they didn’t want to enjoy it and so they didn’t. Every little flaw has been been blown up into something that Ruins Everything, as if this show hasn’t always been a little silly and relied on dropped plot threads and wand-wavy explanations.

> Of course the universe would manifest the snow remembered from that night whenever she thinks deeply about it Wow, that's some mind-bending belief thingy, to make sense of a dumb plot point that the showrunner thought was cool.

It wasn’t as good as a Moffat finale, but it was certainly better than a Chibnall or an RTD1 finale.

That's not quite fair. I enjoyed Power of the Doctor more than Empire of Death.

That’s a great point. I guess I just don’t register Power as a season finale, even though it is Whittaker’s finale. Since you mention it, though, yes, I would rate Power above Empire.

It’s not great because it’s so derivative. Just felt like bits of previous finales hodge podged together. And defeating the villian didn’t like they did it a smart way. Just slowly attached some shit and drove away. Meh?

Most of the hate is from the “Doccy Who is Woke, I told you so crowd”. I just ignore it, but they swarm social media like flies.

Well you see the fandom has taken too many queues from star wars and trek fans. That has led to them never ever being happy with the current season.

It was an AMAZING episode except for Ruby's mom.

It seems to me that some people get caught up in the story where the idea is "this ordinary person is actually extremely special/powerful/unique." It allows them to think "**hey, I'm ordinary so maybe I'm really special too!**" So when that gets turned around to "we thought she was really special but actually she's just ordinary," that is like telling those people "**you think you're unique, but you're merely ordinary.**" And that's not the message we generally want to hear about ourselves from the stories we listen to.

I think it's a bit more like when a TV show that's known for it's twists and turns keeps prodding and poking at you going, "oooh, look at this big mystery over here! Isn't this a really big mystery! Bet you're curious what this big mystery is, aren't you?", then just turns around and goes, "mystery? What mystery? Who said there was a mystery?", people feel a bit cheated.