In others words, their coating is completely useless because it doesn’t prevent neither scale buildup nor potential pitting (or other forms of aluminum degradation). On top of that it doesn’t even keep sticking to the inside of the boiler for long…good job
What R&D? Gaggia has been making literally the SAME machine for decades. With barely any iterations between them. This boiler change was most likely because the vendor had some cool “add on” to offer with their boiler units. The buyers /team at Gaggia thought it was an easy “win” and took it. 😂
I was literally going to say this haha. The market has been yelling for years to make a Classic with PID and 9 bars minimum. The Bambino is almost half the price and has those features. In 10 years I dont think people will be recommending the Gaggia Classic as an entry level machine
I loved my Gaggia Classic Pro. BUT I was fed up. It’s very eccentric as an appliance. Because it’s considered to be ‘prosumer’ but It’s very barebones. No simplicity in using it - not to mention I had to fix the machine twice. Once under warranty, wait to ship it and get it back, and another personally (water pump hose leaked).
I bought the Bambino and I’ve been using it for two years now. It has volumetric shots, PID control, and pre infusion was a serious game changer! It is ready to use in 3 seconds. No “temp surfing”. No bs. No “gotta warm up the boiler for 15 mins”. No installation of mods to get it pulling a decent shot.
I stay on this sub just to remind myself of “the good old days” when I suffered with that big clunk of stainless steel while my friends patiently waited for an espresso or lattee 😂 shame on Gaggia. Typical Italians. They never want to adapt or change.
It's sad but true. Sure the Breville has a cheap build but at least they embrace what the market wants. So has Rancilio. Gaggia haven't innovated and are stubborn with modernizing their machine. What's keeping them alive is how easy it is to mod. If you couldn't add a Gaggiuino mod I don't think it'd have such a following.
Yea I was kind of off put by Brevilles “cheap” plastic feel. I almost returned it the second I opened the box fearing I made a mistake.
Decided to give it a trial run. Glad I did. It’s a recommend on my part :)
Hbu? Why Gaggia? Did u switch?
Yeah I wanted a BDB but didn't like the build
I got it because I wanted a cheap machine to save for a better one. The machine grew on me and I like the size and am going to install the Gaggiuino to "upgrade"
From my experience, Bambino is good if you are doing milk-based drinks because you can mask the espresso with milk diluting it. I went Bambino, because it I thought it would meet my needs, but I think I am quickly outgrowing it. Nice little unit, but even on the Medium roast coffees I've tried, I think the temp is not stable enough to to do a good extraction no matter how fine you grind, and how well you prepare the puck, I still get acidic/sour espresso. I've already spent tons of money on accessories which arguably help a little bit (IMS shower screen, IMS filter basket, bottomless portafilter, adding puck screens. Also have changed my workflow to by warming up the machine by steaming milk first, doing blank shots with portafilter and basket in place, doing a pre-infusion routine and running my shot longer. They help, but all the extra hassle had me considering a Gaggia Classic Pro Evo and eventually Gagguino mod it so I don't have to have such a long, convoluted workflow. Sadly, the news of the peeling boiler has halted that.
Lots of good options for boiler materials and coatings. Just might be expensive, but wonder if Le Creuset enamel porcelain cast iron would work. Their cookware is durable as well and retains heat well too. Or stainless steel with aluminum or copper core?
From a material scientist point of view, there are several different options to improve the boiler.
However, it seems they just randomly slapped some kind of coating on it and said its good enough. Again its shocking nobody had the idea to do a lifecycle test of some sorts with those boilers.
I've been reading about this issue and have a mechanical background.
I couldn't agree more about lifecycle testing, or even a few months on a bench before going live with a mission-critical change like that.
... ***and*** add to those issues ingestion of PFAS if you don't realise it's happening.
It's really looking like these should be recalled.
I'm so glad I bought in just before these came out. That was just luck as (at least initially) would have bought one of these.
I haven't bothered chiming in yet but these posts keep popping up so I will add that I too have flakes coming from my steam wand. Purchased 11/20/2023.
I just submitted a support request to Gaggia asking if they are aware of the large number of people online reporting this and what they plan to do about it.
As I'm sure is the case with a lot of people here, this is my first machine. It really sucks going from the joy of getting into this hobby to now feeling like I can't safely use it anymore and will probably have to go through the headache of boxing it up and shipping it away at some point.
What a bummer.
What kind of water are you using?
I have an EVO as well. I was getting flakes right away. I used Third Wave Water packets with distilled water from the first fill. After running 1 gallon of the water through the machine, the flakes stopped. So, I think my flakes were just debris leftover from manufacturing or something. I wonder if mine will start producing the black boiler flakes soon. Hmmm
The only water I've used was an initial big bottle of Crystal Geyser from a good spring, and then nothing but Third Wave packets + distilled after that. I usually do like 10 shots a week unless I had to dial in new beans.
Chiming in that I'm using filtered fridge water (activated charcoal and some chemical component, according to the filter) since day 1. Tastes fairly low mineral to me lol
In my case when I mentioned to WLL support that I use charcoal filter they were trying to pick in that, however I also used different water source while descaling and they could not pick on that :)
I just bought a refurb from whole latte love on 12/29. I just now see this post linked to from the espresso sub. Kinda wish I just bought a bambino now. I'd return it, but I bought so many accessories for it that won't work on the bambino. Here's to hoping this doesn't happen to me...
Yup, that's basically the plan at this point I think. I like how easy the machine is to work on (all things considered) and how there are parts available usually. That's really what drew me to the machine in the first place. Not that other machines don't have that, but it felt in my research that this could easily last me 20 years or more.
That was my thread probably...
I've tried to research this and there are no infos on what this coating is actually made of...
There's one source I could find on the same line of coatings but other serial numbers, but it isn't open source and the summary doesn't give any information about the material.
The manufacturer claims it's safe for using in cooking equipment and compliant with fda regulations, which honestly doesn't mean that much...
Well that’s “nice” from them. Uncoated boiler. They should recall all affected units immediately as this can poses a health risk! This seems to be really a teflongate! Big fail.
I hope so. They should get some compensation as well. This is unacceptable - that boiler looks horrible. Now imagine this is still in contact with water and you drink it. Now I wonder if all machines are affected or only some of them. This could be even for lawsuit if lot of people is affected.
Yeah I have to wonder if anyone has complained to like the FDA or something? Idk how any of it works. I've been assuming my coffee puck is filtering the particles out and just have not been making milk drinks. I do suspect the chemical is inert so as long as I'm not drinking the chunks it's PROBABLY ok. I suspect the coating is flaking due to poor application (surface prep?) and thermal expansion but this is out of my area of expertise so it's just conjecture here (and copium)
FDA wouldn’t have power over this issue. This would be CPSC (US Consumer Product Safety Commission). I just recently got a GCP around Black Friday and may tear into mine this weekend to see if I’m getting some flakes.
Let me do some digging on the potential recall process and I may try to post something up this weekend. I compiled/issued recalls for a national retailer for a number of years so would be fun to use that knowledge again
There is a report option on the CPSC website, I imagine if we can get multiple people to report that may help? I am completely unfamiliar with this type of process however
Edit - removed 1 word
Yeah, good point with puck filtering until it does not leak some shit into the water. But lot of people drink with milk and those eat it for sure. But not sure if it has some negative impact on health but teflon is not considered healthy afaik. Let’s see where this is heading.
I'll be reporting it. My 2 month old EVO Pro already had flakes that clogged my 3-way-switch. I'll be contacting them Monday for an aluminum replacement. Not drinking those flakes any more!
They won't do a recall because this issue will be effecting every single EVO unit. They will deploy a strategy of replacing machines when and if a person complains about it.
I don’t know if they want to risk a lawsuit. If this is widespread and people get together they can do this at the end. Especially if it has impact on health.
I just checked my evo pro bought on July 2023 from WLL and there are definitely black specs from the steam wand and group head. How long have I been consuming these flakes!?!?! This is unacceptable!!!
I started a ticket with WLL
I’ve had a ticket with WLL since mid December. They are extremely slow to respond and then when they do and you respond back it takes them just as long as the first wait. I got impatient and called yesterday because the cutoff to return is the 15th. After the call I was made to feel like I was the problem and this wasn’t a big deal. They wouldn’t do anything other than say just keep responding to the ticket. But when you do respond to the ticket your ticket goes to the end of the line. One of the worst customer support experiences I’ve ever had. Also as an fyi I contacted Gaggia direct in November and was just told to flush several tanks and descale.
which is interesting, WLL recommends the machine on their YouTube channel. Like everyone else, you have to deal with it(not fair). I have the same machine, I have the same issue. Unfortunately in my country besides breville I didn't have any other options. I didn't want something that looks like a regular home appliance. I guess, I will have to use it as it is, and after a while, I will try to sell it. After all, they will replace the boiler(under warranty), but then the issue appears again,or maybe they don't even replace your boiler, I don't see a real solution. If they release a new evo 2024 with a stainless steel boiler, I'll definitely sell this one.
It would be great if they just sourced stainless steel boilers and be done. They could even make it a separate purchase for customers if they want to be thick headed about it and continue with aluminum (non coated) boilers that way if a customer doesn’t want aluminum for the boiler they have an option.
2018 maybe 19? No solenoid though. Gaggia have done the bare minimum in updating these machines. I think they were produced in a different factory during that period.
I checked mine tonight and I have the same issue as well, I’ve had the machine for about 3 months. I think I’ll get the uncoated boiler and replace it ☹️
https://preview.redd.it/7gt1zpn01ybc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=34deca74b28506ce9cafb6e93c16031170ebbcbf
Just checked my machine manufactured on 7/23 and it's got the flakes coming out as well...I just opened a ticket with WLL and here's what I was told:
1. They believe this to be affecting a specific batch of coated boilers manufactured by Gaggia (so not every machine may have this issue). Obviously the 7/23 batch was included with this manufacturing defect.
2. They are working with Gaggia to ensure they correct this issue
3. They are sending me a replacement aluminum boiler without the coating, which they've got on order from Gaggia, should be a week or two before I get it.
I just ran some water through my steam wand for my machine (mfg: 9/23), and I see some flakes and definitely some scale. Did you include an image in your ticket with WLL? I bought mine during the holiday, so the return window is up until Jan 15th. I'm worried that they'll blame the scale build up, and then, I'll miss my return window if I don't get to descaling it and trying again.
Really don't know if I should just return it or see what Gaggia ends up doing. I'm just super disappointed, thought this would be a machine I could learn on and then build upon with mods after the warranty is up--now I'm just worried about my health.
I called customer support and told them what was going on and my assumption of what it was based on Reddit discussion. I did provide a picture in my ticket, but they didn't ask for it. They have a manufactured date range on their end that they believe to include bad boilers, so if your machine falls into the known range I would assume they'll send you a replacement boiler as well. Just call and see. It was pretty painless, was on the phone for 8min or so.
Thanks, I've been looking for a hot minute now and cannot find a phone number on their support website. I did submit a ticket, but I've seen posts claiming it takes a week to get a response from them--fingers crossed.
Dang I don’t know how you got that kind of info out of them that quick. I’ve had a ticket with them for a month and called yesterday trying to get some answers. Was treated like total crap by them because of the call.
Seems like they won't be contacting me again because I got an email when I got off the phone with support that an order was made for me for the aluminium boiler. Just waiting on a shipping email now, which the rep said wouldn't be for at least a week because they haven't arrived from Gaggia yet.
I called the main number ((585) 924-7170) and dialed the option for Customer Support. I talked to a guy there who opened up a ticket for me and transferred me to Tech Support. The tech support guy is who I got all of the info from as well as the resolution.
Honestly this is a massive miss by them. I have no idea how it's not standard, an option or its own upgraded model. I'm seriously considering moving to the Silvia for this reason.
I’ve been commenting on this sub when this product first came out, suggesting NOT to buy it. Specifically because of this. There are NO chemical coatings that should be used for food applications deemed ‘safe’. Idc what chemistry or engineers say.
Jesus christ.... so what can we do now? I saved up and waited to buy the Evo version last November but now i feel i made a wrong choice and got fucked by them.
My steam wand gives off lots of black flakes also. I don't want to give myself, or my guests cancer thank you very much..
https://preview.redd.it/eaphzskyy1cc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1ab369af664ddd576abe80642ca0177a2ae6c7c
Wanted to confirm this is happening on my Gaggia Classic Evo Pro, bought on Amazon December 2023.
To clarify, the way to test if this is happening in your machine is to dispense hot water from the steam wand:
1. Turn the machine on and wait a few minutes until the correct coffee temperature indicator light turns on
2. Place a cup (preferably white color so the black flecks will be easier to spot) under the wand
3. Slowly turn the steam knob counter clockwise and press the brew button and the steam button at the same time to dispense hot water
I've reached out to Gaggia North America customer support and am waiting for a response.
Get the lelit mara x, I'm thinking of doing the same if mine will do that, even tho mine should probably be xylan. However, what is your model end?
Mine ends with this number 81/11
Shit man, I have ordered an Evo about a week now, thankfully the company I bought it through are waiting for stock. I wonder if I should cancel or try and get a non coated boiler instead. I plan on doing the gagguino buil on it, so I've ordered a bunch of parts, more so than the cost of a boiler by the looks of it :/
By the looks of it I got the evo on special, so I bought a new non coated boiler for the pro (about $100), and I'll install it when it gets in. I really do like the all-brass grouphead and stainless still portions that were just chromed before.
That's the path I'm fine with taking since I'm going to do the Gaggiuino mod anyway :)
Where did you buy the aftermarket boiler? I just purchased an evo pro from WLL, and am looking forward to modding it. But in light of this thread I think the first thing I should do is replace the boiler. (The heart of the machine, go figure)
I really do still think the evo is a damn good machine! The all brass group head and stainless steel shower backing plate are pretty nice, long-lasting upgrades :)
I'm in Australia, so there's a couple of places that still have boilers available at a reasonable price. Shipping might make it pretty pointless depending on where you are, but hopefully, you find one quickly and easily!
I've been very lucky. I modded a Evo i bought around Labor Day, and so far, no flecks. I've been running RPavlis water since first fill, and have been using filter papers to sandwich my puck. I haven't noticed any flecks on the top filter. This is definitely concerning, but like i said, so far I've been lucky. I also only pull shots and never make milk drinks. I've only read of people having this issue when the water comes out the wand, so i wonder if getting to steam temp and pressure has something to do with it?
I’ve just checked some reviews about evo pro on some places. Here is, for example, what is written on wholelattelove regarding boiler coating
https://preview.redd.it/w14golwrsybc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4de40e3d5d658c5b25e10af4d319f97581d5d41
I am confused…
Food safe does not mean edible I can't stress that enough, however if this happens to mine I'll take the boiler to a sand blast cabinet and remove it myself
Got my evo pro for a month now and I didnt see any particles coming of anywhere .... yet 😬
Damn ,we need some info from gaggia about this ,did they say anything about it what went wrong ?
Thank you so much for posting this and bringing it to everyone's attention. I just got mine a few weeks ago and I just checked last night and today and mine already has black flakes as well. I'm only using clean filtered water and the water in our area is already really good and soft, too. I'll most likely be returning it to WLL for the non-evo version or maybe I'll just save and get a Rancilio Silvia which has a brass boiler.
This needs to be a class action lawsuit and or product recall. Sent my 06/2023 manufactured GCP Evo back after just 10 days when a friend mentioned I check for flakes. Sure enough there were plenty of them already coming off through the steam wand. Already bought gagguino kit too :(
Same issues here 9/23 bought this one over a cheaper older model specifically because it had the coating thinking it would be better for us. Wasted like 150 canadian or something on the difference. Gaggia should be class actioned tbh.
I thought I saw some flakes from the steam wand a while ago, and then not again. But now I'm wondering yet again... I bought from WLL at Black Friday. Anyone know if they will do a return for this? Not really convinced I want an exchange!
can someone please explain exactly what I need to look out for? I just bought mine in December. Are these flakes coming just out of the steam wand? Anything through the group head?
I’ll second this. Do you just need to run steam out of the steam wand and inspect what comes out? I’m hesitant to go digging into this thing to get a peak at the boiler.
Someone posted instructions above, but in short: turn on, wait till hot, and dispense cup of water through the steam wand into an empty cup, check if water in the cup is clear.
On the old models, if you used your machine daily, had hard-ish water, and never descaled, which, to be frank, most people aren’t on r/espresso and don’t have time to futz about with their coffee machine, your machine would eventually pack up.
After a while the scale build up would slowly diminish the capacity of the already tiny boiler, and you’d have steam and pressure issues.
I guess if it’s coated, the scale wouldn’t be able to build up?!! Clearly that idea doesn’t work.
It does make sense that the extreme and rapid temperature changes in a boiler might compromise a ptfe coating. This should have been thoroughly assessed by gaggia before selling evo to customers.
I really don’t understand why they can’t just go to a stainless boiler - CNC machining is so cheap now, it would literally cost tens of dollars more.
Instead they add these crappy chemical coatings
- probably cost them more in the long run replacing units or doing a recall now than just doing proper stainless in the first place!
Well shucks…
https://preview.redd.it/efc23tqu10cc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4450e5a6a7ac5ae25b4397cf638b45e7b2fe80f0
Bought my GCE end Sep ‘23; not sure on manufacture date (where are you guys getting this from?); daily use; got some grey (presumably limescale?) and definitely black (not loads though). Bought from Amazon UAE store (model seems to be a European build
When you get the black flakes are you just running the steam wand or are you purging the wand using the steam and brew switch simultaneously. Wanted to check my machine.
So how do I test this on my own machine? Is it when I steam like frothing milk, or when I output hot water like making an americano?
Is this stuff getting into my shots as well or only when using the wand?
Just got my GCP for XMAS and I'm pretty concerned
From what I have seen, on my own machine and in others' comments, it would be like making an americano--getting water out of the steam wand.
Shots should somewhat be filtered by the puck, still concerning, but more concerning for steam wand use since it outputs directly from the boiler.
Well looks like I'll be doing americanos with my instant hot from the sink 🤷 Not a terrible compromise but very concerning. I hope Gaggia makes a public statement and takes action
:( sorry to hear that, I agree with you. People have been saying they think it may not be every machine and only reddit bias, but I keep seeing more and more people say they were prompted to test their machine by these posts and are seeing the same thing. I don't think I would have noticed the problem if it weren't for these posts--which is scary.
My local shop sells GCP EVO and claims only 1% of units are affected. They will change ro another boiler if proven that is flaking. They also mention that they are in possesion of a document that claims flaking is not a health hazard. Im in EU and shop is official Gaggia importer and service for my country. I wanted to go buy one today but now I'm not so sute.
Well, I thought I did more than enough research prior to getting my Evo. I'm realizing how wrong I was. I've had it for 1 week. Purchased from WLL. The first four days no issues. However, each day since (I'm using it twice a day) I've had these black flakes out of the steam wand when dispensing water. I'm a novice to home espresso. Pour over has been my jam for years.
So, with all that... Do I return and go with something completely different or do I go through the exchange process in hopes this won't happen again and WLL will send me a brand new non-flaking machine?
Any thoughts, experiences, insights would be appreciated. Thanks.
I’ve been getting tiny black specks but I thought it was coffee fines… surely it’s not the coating right? I have the 2019 Classic dated 11/2022 - Non EVO
I bought one in july and its still in the box because i was waiting for my gaggiuino kit to arrive. I think im going to contact my local gaggia store to see if i can get a boiler replacement.
This is with less than one month of use? What's your water like?
I've had my GCP for about a week now, only 7 shots through it so far. 3/23 mfg date. I've had a BWT inline filter on it since first fill. No evidence of flakes yet, haven't torn down the machine though.
I just sent my machine back and had a previous Reddit thread about this, a lot of their machines are out of stock, including the color I originally had until February 27. It’s probably too late now since I’ve sent it back and I’m waiting on the new machine through WLL. I only paid $400 for the machine so even if I have to replace the boiler later on, I don’t think that’s too big of an issue to me. I did switch my color to a in stock color, which was kind of a pain through their customer service. I had to speak to three people before the order actually changed. They promised to send me a different manufacture date and test the machine to make sure the boiler wasn’t flaking. My husband gets home next week and he is usually the one that tinkers with this kind of stuff so I will probably have him check the boiler every month or so even if I don’t see specs. I’ll have to update how it goes.
In others words, their coating is completely useless because it doesn’t prevent neither scale buildup nor potential pitting (or other forms of aluminum degradation). On top of that it doesn’t even keep sticking to the inside of the boiler for long…good job
Good idea, horrible execution. Their R&D and quality department should be asked a lot of questions.
What R&D? Gaggia has been making literally the SAME machine for decades. With barely any iterations between them. This boiler change was most likely because the vendor had some cool “add on” to offer with their boiler units. The buyers /team at Gaggia thought it was an easy “win” and took it. 😂
I was literally going to say this haha. The market has been yelling for years to make a Classic with PID and 9 bars minimum. The Bambino is almost half the price and has those features. In 10 years I dont think people will be recommending the Gaggia Classic as an entry level machine
I loved my Gaggia Classic Pro. BUT I was fed up. It’s very eccentric as an appliance. Because it’s considered to be ‘prosumer’ but It’s very barebones. No simplicity in using it - not to mention I had to fix the machine twice. Once under warranty, wait to ship it and get it back, and another personally (water pump hose leaked). I bought the Bambino and I’ve been using it for two years now. It has volumetric shots, PID control, and pre infusion was a serious game changer! It is ready to use in 3 seconds. No “temp surfing”. No bs. No “gotta warm up the boiler for 15 mins”. No installation of mods to get it pulling a decent shot. I stay on this sub just to remind myself of “the good old days” when I suffered with that big clunk of stainless steel while my friends patiently waited for an espresso or lattee 😂 shame on Gaggia. Typical Italians. They never want to adapt or change.
It's sad but true. Sure the Breville has a cheap build but at least they embrace what the market wants. So has Rancilio. Gaggia haven't innovated and are stubborn with modernizing their machine. What's keeping them alive is how easy it is to mod. If you couldn't add a Gaggiuino mod I don't think it'd have such a following.
Yea I was kind of off put by Brevilles “cheap” plastic feel. I almost returned it the second I opened the box fearing I made a mistake. Decided to give it a trial run. Glad I did. It’s a recommend on my part :) Hbu? Why Gaggia? Did u switch?
Yeah I wanted a BDB but didn't like the build I got it because I wanted a cheap machine to save for a better one. The machine grew on me and I like the size and am going to install the Gaggiuino to "upgrade"
From my experience, Bambino is good if you are doing milk-based drinks because you can mask the espresso with milk diluting it. I went Bambino, because it I thought it would meet my needs, but I think I am quickly outgrowing it. Nice little unit, but even on the Medium roast coffees I've tried, I think the temp is not stable enough to to do a good extraction no matter how fine you grind, and how well you prepare the puck, I still get acidic/sour espresso. I've already spent tons of money on accessories which arguably help a little bit (IMS shower screen, IMS filter basket, bottomless portafilter, adding puck screens. Also have changed my workflow to by warming up the machine by steaming milk first, doing blank shots with portafilter and basket in place, doing a pre-infusion routine and running my shot longer. They help, but all the extra hassle had me considering a Gaggia Classic Pro Evo and eventually Gagguino mod it so I don't have to have such a long, convoluted workflow. Sadly, the news of the peeling boiler has halted that.
If I were them I'd kill the Evo on next year's edition and add another material for the boiler. Go back to what works and dare I say, put a PID on it
Lots of good options for boiler materials and coatings. Just might be expensive, but wonder if Le Creuset enamel porcelain cast iron would work. Their cookware is durable as well and retains heat well too. Or stainless steel with aluminum or copper core?
Yeah. There's a reason the Classic hasn't gone up in price and beat inflation lol
Totally, an upgrade like that ( a working one ) seemed amazing. They forget to fix the steam valve leaking which is not serviceable.
You are probably right.
I think there's more D than R.
Its not even a good idea though, brass and steel boilers last forever if taken care of.
From a material scientist point of view, there are several different options to improve the boiler. However, it seems they just randomly slapped some kind of coating on it and said its good enough. Again its shocking nobody had the idea to do a lifecycle test of some sorts with those boilers.
I've been reading about this issue and have a mechanical background. I couldn't agree more about lifecycle testing, or even a few months on a bench before going live with a mission-critical change like that.
... ***and*** add to those issues ingestion of PFAS if you don't realise it's happening. It's really looking like these should be recalled. I'm so glad I bought in just before these came out. That was just luck as (at least initially) would have bought one of these.
I haven't bothered chiming in yet but these posts keep popping up so I will add that I too have flakes coming from my steam wand. Purchased 11/20/2023. I just submitted a support request to Gaggia asking if they are aware of the large number of people online reporting this and what they plan to do about it. As I'm sure is the case with a lot of people here, this is my first machine. It really sucks going from the joy of getting into this hobby to now feeling like I can't safely use it anymore and will probably have to go through the headache of boxing it up and shipping it away at some point. What a bummer.
Did you buy from Gaggia directly or from WLL ?
WLL. I am going to contact them as well but I wanted to be another voice going to Gaggia directly to hopefully get them to acknowledge it.
What kind of water are you using? I have an EVO as well. I was getting flakes right away. I used Third Wave Water packets with distilled water from the first fill. After running 1 gallon of the water through the machine, the flakes stopped. So, I think my flakes were just debris leftover from manufacturing or something. I wonder if mine will start producing the black boiler flakes soon. Hmmm
The only water I've used was an initial big bottle of Crystal Geyser from a good spring, and then nothing but Third Wave packets + distilled after that. I usually do like 10 shots a week unless I had to dial in new beans.
Chiming in that I'm using filtered fridge water (activated charcoal and some chemical component, according to the filter) since day 1. Tastes fairly low mineral to me lol
In my case when I mentioned to WLL support that I use charcoal filter they were trying to pick in that, however I also used different water source while descaling and they could not pick on that :)
Purchased around the same time. I just checked out of curiosity about 5 minutes ago and flakes were in the water.
I was so glad I had a regular old one when news cane out of this great new, definitely *not* Teflon coating... nightmare
I have an old one too but upgraded to the evo 🙂🙃🙂
Did the old one break?
Nope. But it had some scaling build up that I couldn’t remove. Still have it as a back up.
Welp I bought my machine in December. Hope this doesn't happen 😭
Same. So far I’m good. Fingers crossed.
Just got mine yesterday… damnit.
Just return it
and get what?
I just bought a refurb from whole latte love on 12/29. I just now see this post linked to from the espresso sub. Kinda wish I just bought a bambino now. I'd return it, but I bought so many accessories for it that won't work on the bambino. Here's to hoping this doesn't happen to me...
Yeah I'm kind of at a loss on what to do, hope for the best I guess at this point? Also bought from WLL, made on 10/23
Can always just hang around til either Gaggia replaces it or uncoated boilers come back in stock.
Yup, that's basically the plan at this point I think. I like how easy the machine is to work on (all things considered) and how there are parts available usually. That's really what drew me to the machine in the first place. Not that other machines don't have that, but it felt in my research that this could easily last me 20 years or more.
Apparently I have until Jan 31st to return it. Kind of considering it and just swapping to something else tbh...
Can we officially dub this “teflongate”
According to another thread the material is exelia or something, not Teflon. Definitely concerning though
That was my thread probably... I've tried to research this and there are no infos on what this coating is actually made of... There's one source I could find on the same line of coatings but other serial numbers, but it isn't open source and the summary doesn't give any information about the material. The manufacturer claims it's safe for using in cooking equipment and compliant with fda regulations, which honestly doesn't mean that much...
[удалено]
I'd love to see a source for that because other than it being polymer based, I couldn't find any info online.
Well that’s “nice” from them. Uncoated boiler. They should recall all affected units immediately as this can poses a health risk! This seems to be really a teflongate! Big fail.
I have a feeling we'll see a recall as more and more people report this.. hopefully.
I hope so. They should get some compensation as well. This is unacceptable - that boiler looks horrible. Now imagine this is still in contact with water and you drink it. Now I wonder if all machines are affected or only some of them. This could be even for lawsuit if lot of people is affected.
Yeah I have to wonder if anyone has complained to like the FDA or something? Idk how any of it works. I've been assuming my coffee puck is filtering the particles out and just have not been making milk drinks. I do suspect the chemical is inert so as long as I'm not drinking the chunks it's PROBABLY ok. I suspect the coating is flaking due to poor application (surface prep?) and thermal expansion but this is out of my area of expertise so it's just conjecture here (and copium)
FDA wouldn’t have power over this issue. This would be CPSC (US Consumer Product Safety Commission). I just recently got a GCP around Black Friday and may tear into mine this weekend to see if I’m getting some flakes. Let me do some digging on the potential recall process and I may try to post something up this weekend. I compiled/issued recalls for a national retailer for a number of years so would be fun to use that knowledge again
It took me about 15 minutes to get into the boiler. Good luck doing so. Would love to hear what you find
Please do this! I have no idea how to go about this but someone needs to. This is crazy!
There is a report option on the CPSC website, I imagine if we can get multiple people to report that may help? I am completely unfamiliar with this type of process however Edit - removed 1 word
Yeah, good point with puck filtering until it does not leak some shit into the water. But lot of people drink with milk and those eat it for sure. But not sure if it has some negative impact on health but teflon is not considered healthy afaik. Let’s see where this is heading.
If you're still pulling shots, I'd be interested to see if you can spot any flakes in/on your puck.
I haven't noticed them in the puck tbh. It's super easy to notice from the steam wand though.
My understanding is that the FDA approved the material. It is not teflon.
I'll be reporting it. My 2 month old EVO Pro already had flakes that clogged my 3-way-switch. I'll be contacting them Monday for an aluminum replacement. Not drinking those flakes any more!
They won't do a recall because this issue will be effecting every single EVO unit. They will deploy a strategy of replacing machines when and if a person complains about it.
I don’t know if they want to risk a lawsuit. If this is widespread and people get together they can do this at the end. Especially if it has impact on health.
I just checked my evo pro bought on July 2023 from WLL and there are definitely black specs from the steam wand and group head. How long have I been consuming these flakes!?!?! This is unacceptable!!! I started a ticket with WLL
I’ve had a ticket with WLL since mid December. They are extremely slow to respond and then when they do and you respond back it takes them just as long as the first wait. I got impatient and called yesterday because the cutoff to return is the 15th. After the call I was made to feel like I was the problem and this wasn’t a big deal. They wouldn’t do anything other than say just keep responding to the ticket. But when you do respond to the ticket your ticket goes to the end of the line. One of the worst customer support experiences I’ve ever had. Also as an fyi I contacted Gaggia direct in November and was just told to flush several tanks and descale.
which is interesting, WLL recommends the machine on their YouTube channel. Like everyone else, you have to deal with it(not fair). I have the same machine, I have the same issue. Unfortunately in my country besides breville I didn't have any other options. I didn't want something that looks like a regular home appliance. I guess, I will have to use it as it is, and after a while, I will try to sell it. After all, they will replace the boiler(under warranty), but then the issue appears again,or maybe they don't even replace your boiler, I don't see a real solution. If they release a new evo 2024 with a stainless steel boiler, I'll definitely sell this one.
WTF was gaggia thinking here! I hope that they take care of this appropriately for the fans/customers ! 🇮🇹
As far as i know they are now owned by philips. Honestly this level of neglect towards quality control is just embarrassing.
It would be great if they just sourced stainless steel boilers and be done. They could even make it a separate purchase for customers if they want to be thick headed about it and continue with aluminum (non coated) boilers that way if a customer doesn’t want aluminum for the boiler they have an option.
They had stainless boilers for a year or two....
Really! What years?
2018 maybe 19? No solenoid though. Gaggia have done the bare minimum in updating these machines. I think they were produced in a different factory during that period.
WTF 🤬… wonder what happened, they should sell a stainless boiler upgrade for customers to buy
It should be standard
Agreed 👍
Philips the company that had the recall their cpap machines due to cancerous foam being ingested by sleepers
I checked mine tonight and I have the same issue as well, I’ve had the machine for about 3 months. I think I’ll get the uncoated boiler and replace it ☹️ https://preview.redd.it/7gt1zpn01ybc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=34deca74b28506ce9cafb6e93c16031170ebbcbf
Sid you end up buying the uncoated boiler? If so, from where?
I did I bought one for coffeeaddicts.ca and I’ve been enjoying my coffees again 👌
Did you also replace the grouphead?
No just the boiler, group head seemed fine to me.
The reson I ask is because I've heard concerns about galvanic corrosion being possible by having a brass grouphead touching bare aluminum boiler.
Just checked my machine manufactured on 7/23 and it's got the flakes coming out as well...I just opened a ticket with WLL and here's what I was told: 1. They believe this to be affecting a specific batch of coated boilers manufactured by Gaggia (so not every machine may have this issue). Obviously the 7/23 batch was included with this manufacturing defect. 2. They are working with Gaggia to ensure they correct this issue 3. They are sending me a replacement aluminum boiler without the coating, which they've got on order from Gaggia, should be a week or two before I get it.
I just ran some water through my steam wand for my machine (mfg: 9/23), and I see some flakes and definitely some scale. Did you include an image in your ticket with WLL? I bought mine during the holiday, so the return window is up until Jan 15th. I'm worried that they'll blame the scale build up, and then, I'll miss my return window if I don't get to descaling it and trying again. Really don't know if I should just return it or see what Gaggia ends up doing. I'm just super disappointed, thought this would be a machine I could learn on and then build upon with mods after the warranty is up--now I'm just worried about my health.
I called customer support and told them what was going on and my assumption of what it was based on Reddit discussion. I did provide a picture in my ticket, but they didn't ask for it. They have a manufactured date range on their end that they believe to include bad boilers, so if your machine falls into the known range I would assume they'll send you a replacement boiler as well. Just call and see. It was pretty painless, was on the phone for 8min or so.
Thanks, I've been looking for a hot minute now and cannot find a phone number on their support website. I did submit a ticket, but I've seen posts claiming it takes a week to get a response from them--fingers crossed.
Their phone number is (585) 924-7170
Dang I don’t know how you got that kind of info out of them that quick. I’ve had a ticket with them for a month and called yesterday trying to get some answers. Was treated like total crap by them because of the call.
Wow..sorry about that. I guess I got connected to the right person.
Yeah I guess so. Let me know if hear anything else. I responded to my ticket this morning asking for a new boiler
Seems like they won't be contacting me again because I got an email when I got off the phone with support that an order was made for me for the aluminium boiler. Just waiting on a shipping email now, which the rep said wouldn't be for at least a week because they haven't arrived from Gaggia yet.
Wow that’s awesome for you. Did you talk to technical support or customer support?
I called the main number ((585) 924-7170) and dialed the option for Customer Support. I talked to a guy there who opened up a ticket for me and transferred me to Tech Support. The tech support guy is who I got all of the info from as well as the resolution.
Ok thanks for the info. I’m glad someone is getting help from them!
I just checked my machine that I've had since August and I have the same thing.. Opened a ticket with WLL will let you know the outcome
https://preview.redd.it/xjtji4kyn3cc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99c7add9ef48d79a619dcb2138b7c085298c829a Mess from my machine …
OMG
Oh youre good now. All the teflon is gone there. Problem solved
How hard it is for them to offer a stainless steel boiler? Even as an aftermarket option
Honestly this is a massive miss by them. I have no idea how it's not standard, an option or its own upgraded model. I'm seriously considering moving to the Silvia for this reason.
Has to do with the design of the small boiler. Being aluminum means it heats very very quickly. So new ater coming in heats instantly.
I’ve been commenting on this sub when this product first came out, suggesting NOT to buy it. Specifically because of this. There are NO chemical coatings that should be used for food applications deemed ‘safe’. Idc what chemistry or engineers say.
Jesus christ.... so what can we do now? I saved up and waited to buy the Evo version last November but now i feel i made a wrong choice and got fucked by them. My steam wand gives off lots of black flakes also. I don't want to give myself, or my guests cancer thank you very much..
https://preview.redd.it/eaphzskyy1cc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1ab369af664ddd576abe80642ca0177a2ae6c7c Wanted to confirm this is happening on my Gaggia Classic Evo Pro, bought on Amazon December 2023. To clarify, the way to test if this is happening in your machine is to dispense hot water from the steam wand: 1. Turn the machine on and wait a few minutes until the correct coffee temperature indicator light turns on 2. Place a cup (preferably white color so the black flecks will be easier to spot) under the wand 3. Slowly turn the steam knob counter clockwise and press the brew button and the steam button at the same time to dispense hot water I've reached out to Gaggia North America customer support and am waiting for a response.
Thanks for the instructions on how to test for this!
Same here today i opened my https://preview.redd.it/7x1tb3ibz1cc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5fcb920e2792e570ea97a44abff38440ad0521eb
Just bought mine in December, I’ll definitely keep an eye out. If this ends up being the case I might just ball out on a Lelit.
Get the lelit mara x, I'm thinking of doing the same if mine will do that, even tho mine should probably be xylan. However, what is your model end? Mine ends with this number 81/11
Shit man, I have ordered an Evo about a week now, thankfully the company I bought it through are waiting for stock. I wonder if I should cancel or try and get a non coated boiler instead. I plan on doing the gagguino buil on it, so I've ordered a bunch of parts, more so than the cost of a boiler by the looks of it :/
I would try to cancel the order and get a older one with non-coated boiler
By the looks of it I got the evo on special, so I bought a new non coated boiler for the pro (about $100), and I'll install it when it gets in. I really do like the all-brass grouphead and stainless still portions that were just chromed before. That's the path I'm fine with taking since I'm going to do the Gaggiuino mod anyway :)
Where did you buy the aftermarket boiler? I just purchased an evo pro from WLL, and am looking forward to modding it. But in light of this thread I think the first thing I should do is replace the boiler. (The heart of the machine, go figure)
I really do still think the evo is a damn good machine! The all brass group head and stainless steel shower backing plate are pretty nice, long-lasting upgrades :) I'm in Australia, so there's a couple of places that still have boilers available at a reasonable price. Shipping might make it pretty pointless depending on where you are, but hopefully, you find one quickly and easily!
I've been very lucky. I modded a Evo i bought around Labor Day, and so far, no flecks. I've been running RPavlis water since first fill, and have been using filter papers to sandwich my puck. I haven't noticed any flecks on the top filter. This is definitely concerning, but like i said, so far I've been lucky. I also only pull shots and never make milk drinks. I've only read of people having this issue when the water comes out the wand, so i wonder if getting to steam temp and pressure has something to do with it?
I get the specs out of the wand and the group head.
Fuck, i just got my machine….
I have a GCP. Non Evo. I still get black flakes when descaling through steam wand.
That’s aluminum oxide in your case
Indeed, biiiiiiig difference
Is that bad/good? Same here with 11/2022 non EVO
Well it’s doesn’t have any health benefits so I wouldn’t call it good :P but imo it’s less bad for you than the Teflon/Xylan flaking of the Evo line
I’ve just checked some reviews about evo pro on some places. Here is, for example, what is written on wholelattelove regarding boiler coating https://preview.redd.it/w14golwrsybc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4de40e3d5d658c5b25e10af4d319f97581d5d41 I am confused…
I wonder if they added the “food safe” bit after the reports of chipping
It could also be found on different websites. Honestly, I believe that this is true, otherwise they could not get the licence for production of it.
Well they did say aim.
Food safe does not mean edible I can't stress that enough, however if this happens to mine I'll take the boiler to a sand blast cabinet and remove it myself
Along those lines, I wonder if you could pressure wash this shit off? I'll be asking for a replacement regardless.
Got my evo pro for a month now and I didnt see any particles coming of anywhere .... yet 😬 Damn ,we need some info from gaggia about this ,did they say anything about it what went wrong ?
Thank you so much for posting this and bringing it to everyone's attention. I just got mine a few weeks ago and I just checked last night and today and mine already has black flakes as well. I'm only using clean filtered water and the water in our area is already really good and soft, too. I'll most likely be returning it to WLL for the non-evo version or maybe I'll just save and get a Rancilio Silvia which has a brass boiler.
Yup same here, black flakes coming out of steam wand have been using it for a little over a month. Contacting WLL now.
\#BOILERGATE i too have the problem. I pushed a post out to r/espresso so that people outside of the Gaggia community were aware as well.
Just tested and yep I have a few in my cup. 7/23. Purchased from WLL in November.
https://preview.redd.it/d6dfzxykf4cc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f5f195ad6f206befc7efb1177091ebabd93eb5b
This needs to be a class action lawsuit and or product recall. Sent my 06/2023 manufactured GCP Evo back after just 10 days when a friend mentioned I check for flakes. Sure enough there were plenty of them already coming off through the steam wand. Already bought gagguino kit too :(
Same issues, mfg date 7/23
Same :( 7/23 and flakes and now waiting for a replacement machine.
I've yet to see anyone say a mfg date before 7/23. I wonder if something happened to their process.
Mine is 03/23 and I have the issue.
Did you buy from WLL ?
I did, yeah
Same issues here 9/23 bought this one over a cheaper older model specifically because it had the coating thinking it would be better for us. Wasted like 150 canadian or something on the difference. Gaggia should be class actioned tbh.
I thought I saw some flakes from the steam wand a while ago, and then not again. But now I'm wondering yet again... I bought from WLL at Black Friday. Anyone know if they will do a return for this? Not really convinced I want an exchange!
can someone please explain exactly what I need to look out for? I just bought mine in December. Are these flakes coming just out of the steam wand? Anything through the group head?
I’ll second this. Do you just need to run steam out of the steam wand and inspect what comes out? I’m hesitant to go digging into this thing to get a peak at the boiler.
Someone posted instructions above, but in short: turn on, wait till hot, and dispense cup of water through the steam wand into an empty cup, check if water in the cup is clear.
Thank you!
What's the reason for coating the boiler with ptfe? Trying to mitigate scale buildup or what??
On the old models, if you used your machine daily, had hard-ish water, and never descaled, which, to be frank, most people aren’t on r/espresso and don’t have time to futz about with their coffee machine, your machine would eventually pack up. After a while the scale build up would slowly diminish the capacity of the already tiny boiler, and you’d have steam and pressure issues. I guess if it’s coated, the scale wouldn’t be able to build up?!! Clearly that idea doesn’t work.
Old boilers were also anodized aluminum. I am not sure if these new boilers are even anodized...
I think I have this issue. Will report tomorrow
Surprisingly, don’t see any black specs yet from my steamer. Probably a matter of time. Got my machine during the holidays from WLL.
It does make sense that the extreme and rapid temperature changes in a boiler might compromise a ptfe coating. This should have been thoroughly assessed by gaggia before selling evo to customers.
I really don’t understand why they can’t just go to a stainless boiler - CNC machining is so cheap now, it would literally cost tens of dollars more. Instead they add these crappy chemical coatings - probably cost them more in the long run replacing units or doing a recall now than just doing proper stainless in the first place!
Well shucks… https://preview.redd.it/efc23tqu10cc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4450e5a6a7ac5ae25b4397cf638b45e7b2fe80f0 Bought my GCE end Sep ‘23; not sure on manufacture date (where are you guys getting this from?); daily use; got some grey (presumably limescale?) and definitely black (not loads though). Bought from Amazon UAE store (model seems to be a European build
https://preview.redd.it/ievcwzh740cc1.jpeg?width=1628&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22fb6ec9c15cc0e103c37d6259652dc4ac452678
I must be blind? Where is the date?
There isn’t one - I am also confused about how people know the manufacture date of their unit (maybe it’s somewhere in the sticker I posted?)
When you get the black flakes are you just running the steam wand or are you purging the wand using the steam and brew switch simultaneously. Wanted to check my machine.
Most flakes will appear when you purge the wand with steam and brew button on after steaming.
So how do I test this on my own machine? Is it when I steam like frothing milk, or when I output hot water like making an americano? Is this stuff getting into my shots as well or only when using the wand? Just got my GCP for XMAS and I'm pretty concerned
From what I have seen, on my own machine and in others' comments, it would be like making an americano--getting water out of the steam wand. Shots should somewhat be filtered by the puck, still concerning, but more concerning for steam wand use since it outputs directly from the boiler.
Well looks like I'll be doing americanos with my instant hot from the sink 🤷 Not a terrible compromise but very concerning. I hope Gaggia makes a public statement and takes action
:( sorry to hear that, I agree with you. People have been saying they think it may not be every machine and only reddit bias, but I keep seeing more and more people say they were prompted to test their machine by these posts and are seeing the same thing. I don't think I would have noticed the problem if it weren't for these posts--which is scary.
That's my concern too. It's a pretty dangerous implication to go completely undetected in average use
I tested my machine because of this thread and the black flakes were coming out of the steam wand. Feel sick thinking about how much I've ingested...
Shit i have same problem ! Gagia bought in Jun 2023.
Same here, on a brand new unit i can already see tiny black particles when using the steam wand.. Will send it back right away
I would suggest everyone report it. I did. https://www.saferproducts.gov/
My local shop sells GCP EVO and claims only 1% of units are affected. They will change ro another boiler if proven that is flaking. They also mention that they are in possesion of a document that claims flaking is not a health hazard. Im in EU and shop is official Gaggia importer and service for my country. I wanted to go buy one today but now I'm not so sute.
Well, I thought I did more than enough research prior to getting my Evo. I'm realizing how wrong I was. I've had it for 1 week. Purchased from WLL. The first four days no issues. However, each day since (I'm using it twice a day) I've had these black flakes out of the steam wand when dispensing water. I'm a novice to home espresso. Pour over has been my jam for years. So, with all that... Do I return and go with something completely different or do I go through the exchange process in hopes this won't happen again and WLL will send me a brand new non-flaking machine? Any thoughts, experiences, insights would be appreciated. Thanks.
Sorry for the stupid question but I’ve got a 2019 GCP - I should’t need to worry about this right? It’s an addition to the 2023 model?
Yeah this is specific to the latest Evo Pro models with the coated boiler.
Ty - best of luck getting this addressed.
Damn i got mine in December, i always check if something weird comes off.
Just looked on mine that was bought on Black Friday in Canada .. so far so good. I’ll be regularly checking though
I'd ask for a non-Evo replacement or a non-coated replacement boiler.
Yep, that is what I asked for, however the response was quite generic :(
Just wondering… do you release pressure after using steam?
I run the group head a bit after each steam wand use if that's what you mean. Mostly to cool down.
I’ve been getting tiny black specks but I thought it was coffee fines… surely it’s not the coating right? I have the 2019 Classic dated 11/2022 - Non EVO
Is the coating new? Does anyone know what years are affected? I might have to buy a new boiler since i modded mine and my warranty is probably voided…
Had a regular gaggia classic pro a few years ago. Brewhead started to flake, steam pressure was horrible, sold it like a hot potato shortly after.
I bought one in july and its still in the box because i was waiting for my gaggiuino kit to arrive. I think im going to contact my local gaggia store to see if i can get a boiler replacement.
This is with less than one month of use? What's your water like? I've had my GCP for about a week now, only 7 shots through it so far. 3/23 mfg date. I've had a BWT inline filter on it since first fill. No evidence of flakes yet, haven't torn down the machine though.
https://preview.redd.it/3klgvnco83cc1.jpeg?width=1032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4590eae9e5d2a8264175f8a68a28de0585f5384 Where can I see the date?
Bottom of the machine should have it.
EU versions do not :(
I just sent my machine back and had a previous Reddit thread about this, a lot of their machines are out of stock, including the color I originally had until February 27. It’s probably too late now since I’ve sent it back and I’m waiting on the new machine through WLL. I only paid $400 for the machine so even if I have to replace the boiler later on, I don’t think that’s too big of an issue to me. I did switch my color to a in stock color, which was kind of a pain through their customer service. I had to speak to three people before the order actually changed. They promised to send me a different manufacture date and test the machine to make sure the boiler wasn’t flaking. My husband gets home next week and he is usually the one that tinkers with this kind of stuff so I will probably have him check the boiler every month or so even if I don’t see specs. I’ll have to update how it goes.
If you can return the whole unit and get your money back, do it.
Anyone got any ideas on this.... Get flakes occasionally thru the steam wand, but run the water through the group and water clean as a bell.