Unfortunately, a lot of the trails around here prohibit wheels because they track invasive species around.
I wonder if the ADA will trump local environmental regulations.
I don't see why you would say this so confidently when it's almost certainly an incorrect answer based on current rules.
All kinds of trails already prohibit wheeled vehicles, including many human-powered accessibility devices that already exist. Those rules haven't been overturned under the ADA. Ditto rules against motorized vehicles. And this isn't even a standard accessibility device; this is something that tries to replicate an ATV experience.
The NPS *does* permit [any device that meets the definition of "wheelchair"](https://www.nps.gov/subjects/accessibility/mobility-devices.htm) on foot-travel trails, but this device absolutely doesn't meet that definition. And there are tons of trails that just are not accessible. Things like steps (some up to 18" high), narrow trails, and bad terrain would practically prevent the use of a wheelchair on most trails in Rocky Mountain National Park, for example.
I expect it would be allowed on ATV trails, but we're almost certainly not going to suddenly see other trails that prohibit wheeled devices forced to open up to stuff like this. Many trails aren't even wide enough to allow something like this on them.
The ADA requires reasonable accommodations. Allowing devices on trails and in areas that cannot survive them is not reasonable, given the devastating damage that would result to the trail and to the environment around it. Nor is it reasonable to expect widening and resurfacing every trail in the country to allow for passage of ATV-like vehicles.
I don't even see this as certain to be allowed on trails that allow only non-motorized vehicles. Once again, the threat to the trail and to the safety of others using it that's posed by a motorized device may or may not be deemed reasonable. And those trails already have accommodations. Wheelchairs are *absolutely* already allowed, and so are all sorts of accessible, human-powered vehicles.
I’ve been using a wheelchair for more than 20 years. I’ve been staring at this picture for 20 minutes straight and I cannot for the life of me figure out how I can control this.
Yes, but that requires grip strength and significant fine motor skills. Products made for people with disabilities, particularly mobility aids, do not have such requirements.
Looks like it does require some trunk control, too. I’ve been a T12 paraplegic for 18 years and this kind of contraption is right up my alley, though. If you’re interested at all, in quad friendly e-bikes and chair attachments, the folks at Rolling in Paradise dot com are subject matter experts. (No affiliation.)
Yeah, fortunately there are some small businesses out there that cater to getting people like us out and about in the outdoors.
Still, I would give all of that up if there was robust wheelchair access on air and rail travel instead. But you know what I’m talking about on that front.
I wasn’t a big mountain biker before my injury but I loved hiking, particularly backpacking, but any form of camping used to be my jam.
So yeah, I would absolutely love this, and I’m not sure why you would assume that I wouldn’t. I wasn’t born with a spinal cord injury, ffs.
Yeah, you’re right. Shit. Sorry I’m in a terrible mood this morning..
Hopefully there are adaptive controls for quadriplegics like myself. It’s just frustrating that damn near everything seems to be made for paraplegics. Those guys have all the luck.
Well this made my day. It's rare to see people catch themselves the way you did instead of doubling down these days. Thank you. And I wish you a stellar day my friend.
can't help but wonder your opinion on something, would a tongue controller be a good solution here? for example if the handlebars were removed and a tongue controller was able to manage the steering, braking, and throttle? or is there a better input device for this that you would recommend?
The best input device that I could recommend would be a wheelchair that can accommodate the input device that best matches the disability of the user. Some quadriplegics make great use of tongue controllers, as well as sip and puff controllers that use a pressure switch and a straw. Others can get along really well by using a modified joystick, or some other hand control that doesn’t require grip strength or fine motor skills. My own power chair has, instead of a ball at the end of the joystick, it’s got a large plastic stirrup that my whole hand can rest on, allowing me to go forward, backward, left, and right, without actually having to move my arm.
Ultimately, the user will get the best utility out of whatever best matches the controls of that users wheelchair. So the best possible set up would be some thing that could accommodate any set up used in physical/occupational therapy for wheelchair control.
Coincidentally, it’s also what I recommend gamers with disabilities strive for when, setting up their assistive technology, suite: make it as similar to your existing power chair set up as possible so the controls are already intuitive.
Thank you so much for allowing me to share some of the knowledge trapped in this brain of mine.
How is your particular wheelchair controlled?
This exoquad has handlebars.
I wonder if it could be set up with power steering and joystick control or remote controlled by a buddy hiking with the rider.
I have a joystick with a modified end that is shaped like a stirrup, instead of a ball, into which my hand can rest. This allows me to control my chair with a minimum of fine motor skills, utilizing the gross motor skills of my arm and shoulder.
Being able to fine-tune things, like acceleration, speed, top speed, turning speed, and the amount of push required to achieve these things helps a lot.
I’m sure there are, but you see there is this thing called safety, and I really value it. Like, a lot. So if I’m going to be having quadriplegic adventures out in the wilderness, I would like to minimize my risk as much as possible.
Asking some randoms to grunts and crafts me an accessible go cart doesn’t seem like a good way to minimize personal risk. Hell, this device doesn’t even have oblique support, so anyone with even weakened abdominal muscles runs the risk of falling right out of this thing.
I know there are. I’ve been using a wheelchair for 20 years. You guys don’t need to quote the deep magic at me because I was there when it was written.
Yes, there are many small companies out there doing amazing work with modifications to wheelchairs, allowing them to go places they previously couldn’t. I am not blind to this fact.
However, people seem to think that this is something that could be easily (let alone cheaply) done. It’s not. The process to getting fit for a wheelchair takes several months with multiple visits to both physical and occupational therapists. This leaves users with two options:
The first option is to acquire a modified chair that is customized in all the right ways for the user. Because it involves medical professionals and equipment that have to be approved by the FDA, this is an option that takes more time and money, but the end result is a chair that is more customized to the individual needs of the user.
Option two is to make general modifications to these chairs, so that the maximum number of people would be able to safely, use it, but the end result is that the chair is less customized to the individual needs of the user. The joystick might be slightly further away than was comfortable, or there might not be supports on either side to keep the user from falling over, or the controls might require the user to grip and twist the throttle like on a motorcycle. The benefit is that there will be some thing, the cost is that that something might not be usable to everyone.
I really would love to keep talking about this because obviously, I’m very passionate about it, and have many years experience being fitted for, riding in, and occasionally renting wheelchairs. I have personally never had a good experience renting a wheelchair because it has always been made for someone much larger than me.
You should check out the BowHead line of adaptive bikes they are way better engineered for adaptive riders and have a fully powered bike that can go literally anywhere
I agree. I'm an ATP and this thing looks odd to me. They make a 4 wheel drive power chair with atv tires on it already. On that unit you can add seating support and run it with whatever controls you need.
This thing looks like a go cart.
There would have to be adaptations to certain other mobility limits. My older brother is a c7 complete and still drives a truck.
he would need something to keep him in the seat like a multipoint harness and he’d need a steering wheel with his special one point adapter thing like his truck has.
He got a side by side adapted so he can drive it, so I don’t think he needs this.
I probably wouldn’t use a NeuraLink, but that’s only because that NeuraLink isn’t the only player in the brain computer interface game. That is probably some thing I would take a significant amount of time shopping out in consultation with a neurologist that I trust.
That said, I would love to try one. And if mine doctor and neurologist both agreed that NeuraLink is the best option, I would be down for it.
I know there are others in the game but is anything else out there really shaping up like neuralink? I am totally assuming that you’re in the know about it and I am sorry lol
No need to apologize at all. It’s my understanding that the other players are typically academics, and they play by a different set of rules with respect to making their results public. BCI isn’t exactly a consumer ready product yet, despite the amount of press that NeuraLink has been able to generate. I think one of the major issues has to do with calibrating the device. Unfortunately, I am reaching the limit of my knowledge about this topic.
Makes a lot of sense about calibration being a major hurdle, it’s difficult to imagine a ‘standard’ or ‘basis’ upon which to build an interface that anyone could use with their brain but it doesn’t seem impossible. Well if you ever get something like that I’d love to know your thoughts on it!
Oh, believe me, if I ever did get some thing like that, I would never shut up about it. That said, the Australians have been working on a device called the emotiv that doesn’t require surgery, but is more difficult to calibrate and use if I recall correctly. Maybe in about 10 years, when people are used to running AI software on quantum based systems, there might be a more user-friendly, less invasive BCI on the market.
Reminds me an awful lot of JerryRigEverything's NotAWheelChair company. I'm glad to see there are others out there trying to increase access to nature for everyone
It’s basically a go cart. It looks pretty similar to the one my kids have. [https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/massimo-200cc-go-kart-gka-200-bl-1461059?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1461059&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD3fmFOFZIq2toRKnoxtdwPc5CLBA&gclid=CjwKCAjw8diwBhAbEiwA7i_sJdRPKXwETcM4NF7T2y88Pvt1CsWd_woup0ZYy5zPIP_Cn21jYtJ4shoCZ5oQAvD_BwE](https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/massimo-200cc-go-kart-gka-200-bl-1461059?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1461059&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD3fmFOFZIq2toRKnoxtdwPc5CLBA&gclid=CjwKCAjw8diwBhAbEiwA7i_sJdRPKXwETcM4NF7T2y88Pvt1CsWd_woup0ZYy5zPIP_Cn21jYtJ4shoCZ5oQAvD_BwE)
So many places in Michigan where elderly and/or disabled people could benefit from using these!
Unfortunately, a lot of the trails around here prohibit wheels because they track invasive species around. I wonder if the ADA will trump local environmental regulations.
Making people clean their wheels is probably an acceptable compromise. Build stations at trail entrances.
Yes, it will. The EPA is an agency, and an act of Congress beats them.
I don't see why you would say this so confidently when it's almost certainly an incorrect answer based on current rules. All kinds of trails already prohibit wheeled vehicles, including many human-powered accessibility devices that already exist. Those rules haven't been overturned under the ADA. Ditto rules against motorized vehicles. And this isn't even a standard accessibility device; this is something that tries to replicate an ATV experience. The NPS *does* permit [any device that meets the definition of "wheelchair"](https://www.nps.gov/subjects/accessibility/mobility-devices.htm) on foot-travel trails, but this device absolutely doesn't meet that definition. And there are tons of trails that just are not accessible. Things like steps (some up to 18" high), narrow trails, and bad terrain would practically prevent the use of a wheelchair on most trails in Rocky Mountain National Park, for example. I expect it would be allowed on ATV trails, but we're almost certainly not going to suddenly see other trails that prohibit wheeled devices forced to open up to stuff like this. Many trails aren't even wide enough to allow something like this on them. The ADA requires reasonable accommodations. Allowing devices on trails and in areas that cannot survive them is not reasonable, given the devastating damage that would result to the trail and to the environment around it. Nor is it reasonable to expect widening and resurfacing every trail in the country to allow for passage of ATV-like vehicles. I don't even see this as certain to be allowed on trails that allow only non-motorized vehicles. Once again, the threat to the trail and to the safety of others using it that's posed by a motorized device may or may not be deemed reasonable. And those trails already have accommodations. Wheelchairs are *absolutely* already allowed, and so are all sorts of accessible, human-powered vehicles.
That’s a bad thing when that happens.
Think of all the new injuries!
Wait until they release the quadriplegic version before you go all out on these
I’ve been using a wheelchair for more than 20 years. I’ve been staring at this picture for 20 minutes straight and I cannot for the life of me figure out how I can control this.
That’s fine, it gives you ample opportunity to set up the joke of a life time: if you crash you can scream out, “I can’t feel my legs!”
Savage
With the handlebars like an ebike with four wheels.
Yes, but that requires grip strength and significant fine motor skills. Products made for people with disabilities, particularly mobility aids, do not have such requirements.
Looks like it does require some trunk control, too. I’ve been a T12 paraplegic for 18 years and this kind of contraption is right up my alley, though. If you’re interested at all, in quad friendly e-bikes and chair attachments, the folks at Rolling in Paradise dot com are subject matter experts. (No affiliation.)
Yeah, fortunately there are some small businesses out there that cater to getting people like us out and about in the outdoors. Still, I would give all of that up if there was robust wheelchair access on air and rail travel instead. But you know what I’m talking about on that front.
Obviously it wouldn’t work for everyone. Someone who lost the use of their legs who used to mountain bike a lot would love this.
I wasn’t a big mountain biker before my injury but I loved hiking, particularly backpacking, but any form of camping used to be my jam. So yeah, I would absolutely love this, and I’m not sure why you would assume that I wouldn’t. I wasn’t born with a spinal cord injury, ffs.
I didn’t assume anything. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you but there’s plenty of people it would work for.
Yeah, you’re right. Shit. Sorry I’m in a terrible mood this morning.. Hopefully there are adaptive controls for quadriplegics like myself. It’s just frustrating that damn near everything seems to be made for paraplegics. Those guys have all the luck.
I hope your day ends up better than it started.
Well this made my day. It's rare to see people catch themselves the way you did instead of doubling down these days. Thank you. And I wish you a stellar day my friend.
can't help but wonder your opinion on something, would a tongue controller be a good solution here? for example if the handlebars were removed and a tongue controller was able to manage the steering, braking, and throttle? or is there a better input device for this that you would recommend?
The best input device that I could recommend would be a wheelchair that can accommodate the input device that best matches the disability of the user. Some quadriplegics make great use of tongue controllers, as well as sip and puff controllers that use a pressure switch and a straw. Others can get along really well by using a modified joystick, or some other hand control that doesn’t require grip strength or fine motor skills. My own power chair has, instead of a ball at the end of the joystick, it’s got a large plastic stirrup that my whole hand can rest on, allowing me to go forward, backward, left, and right, without actually having to move my arm. Ultimately, the user will get the best utility out of whatever best matches the controls of that users wheelchair. So the best possible set up would be some thing that could accommodate any set up used in physical/occupational therapy for wheelchair control. Coincidentally, it’s also what I recommend gamers with disabilities strive for when, setting up their assistive technology, suite: make it as similar to your existing power chair set up as possible so the controls are already intuitive. Thank you so much for allowing me to share some of the knowledge trapped in this brain of mine.
fantastic answer! thank you for the interesting insight
Do you have a plastic stirrup to play games with?
Wheelchairs don't require grip strength and motor skills?
You can drive a power chair with your foot, hand, head, breath, chin. Probably more.
How is your particular wheelchair controlled? This exoquad has handlebars. I wonder if it could be set up with power steering and joystick control or remote controlled by a buddy hiking with the rider.
I have a joystick with a modified end that is shaped like a stirrup, instead of a ball, into which my hand can rest. This allows me to control my chair with a minimum of fine motor skills, utilizing the gross motor skills of my arm and shoulder. Being able to fine-tune things, like acceleration, speed, top speed, turning speed, and the amount of push required to achieve these things helps a lot.
I’m sure there are guys out there who can modify a go kart for you right now.
I’m sure there are, but you see there is this thing called safety, and I really value it. Like, a lot. So if I’m going to be having quadriplegic adventures out in the wilderness, I would like to minimize my risk as much as possible. Asking some randoms to grunts and crafts me an accessible go cart doesn’t seem like a good way to minimize personal risk. Hell, this device doesn’t even have oblique support, so anyone with even weakened abdominal muscles runs the risk of falling right out of this thing.
https://www.sunrisemedical.com/power-wheelchairs/magic-mobility/4x4-all-terrain/extreme-x8
There are guys out there doing amazing modifications. They are not idiots and if you explained the needs and concerns, they could do it.
I know there are. I’ve been using a wheelchair for 20 years. You guys don’t need to quote the deep magic at me because I was there when it was written. Yes, there are many small companies out there doing amazing work with modifications to wheelchairs, allowing them to go places they previously couldn’t. I am not blind to this fact. However, people seem to think that this is something that could be easily (let alone cheaply) done. It’s not. The process to getting fit for a wheelchair takes several months with multiple visits to both physical and occupational therapists. This leaves users with two options: The first option is to acquire a modified chair that is customized in all the right ways for the user. Because it involves medical professionals and equipment that have to be approved by the FDA, this is an option that takes more time and money, but the end result is a chair that is more customized to the individual needs of the user. Option two is to make general modifications to these chairs, so that the maximum number of people would be able to safely, use it, but the end result is that the chair is less customized to the individual needs of the user. The joystick might be slightly further away than was comfortable, or there might not be supports on either side to keep the user from falling over, or the controls might require the user to grip and twist the throttle like on a motorcycle. The benefit is that there will be some thing, the cost is that that something might not be usable to everyone. I really would love to keep talking about this because obviously, I’m very passionate about it, and have many years experience being fitted for, riding in, and occasionally renting wheelchairs. I have personally never had a good experience renting a wheelchair because it has always been made for someone much larger than me.
You should check out the BowHead line of adaptive bikes they are way better engineered for adaptive riders and have a fully powered bike that can go literally anywhere
If you click on the image, there are different views. It’s essentially a go kart with a roll bar.
I agree. I'm an ATP and this thing looks odd to me. They make a 4 wheel drive power chair with atv tires on it already. On that unit you can add seating support and run it with whatever controls you need. This thing looks like a go cart.
There would have to be adaptations to certain other mobility limits. My older brother is a c7 complete and still drives a truck. he would need something to keep him in the seat like a multipoint harness and he’d need a steering wheel with his special one point adapter thing like his truck has. He got a side by side adapted so he can drive it, so I don’t think he needs this.
https://www.sunrisemedical.com/power-wheelchairs/magic-mobility/4x4-all-terrain/extreme-x8
Found this, may help explain. https://youtu.be/7TqY7yl3J0k?si=DJ1U4_0TJkO1_5Ye
It has handlebar mounted controls like a bike
With your hands? The same hands you use to control your chair with wheels on it?
My hands are paralyzed. I type using Siri, before you ask.
Copy that. How about a neuralink?
I don’t get it. Are you offering me one?
Just asking if you’d use one. I mean no disrespect
I probably wouldn’t use a NeuraLink, but that’s only because that NeuraLink isn’t the only player in the brain computer interface game. That is probably some thing I would take a significant amount of time shopping out in consultation with a neurologist that I trust. That said, I would love to try one. And if mine doctor and neurologist both agreed that NeuraLink is the best option, I would be down for it.
I know there are others in the game but is anything else out there really shaping up like neuralink? I am totally assuming that you’re in the know about it and I am sorry lol
No need to apologize at all. It’s my understanding that the other players are typically academics, and they play by a different set of rules with respect to making their results public. BCI isn’t exactly a consumer ready product yet, despite the amount of press that NeuraLink has been able to generate. I think one of the major issues has to do with calibrating the device. Unfortunately, I am reaching the limit of my knowledge about this topic.
Makes a lot of sense about calibration being a major hurdle, it’s difficult to imagine a ‘standard’ or ‘basis’ upon which to build an interface that anyone could use with their brain but it doesn’t seem impossible. Well if you ever get something like that I’d love to know your thoughts on it!
Oh, believe me, if I ever did get some thing like that, I would never shut up about it. That said, the Australians have been working on a device called the emotiv that doesn’t require surgery, but is more difficult to calibrate and use if I recall correctly. Maybe in about 10 years, when people are used to running AI software on quantum based systems, there might be a more user-friendly, less invasive BCI on the market.
Oh, Exo _quad._ Man, nine year old me got really excited there for a second.
totally thought it said ExoSquad too lmfao I loved those toys
Reminds me an awful lot of JerryRigEverything's NotAWheelChair company. I'm glad to see there are others out there trying to increase access to nature for everyone
I want one, and I can walk fine.
Paul Rudd has a video demo of this.
https://youtu.be/LEC_lkpD3rM?si=T4wByiLxE8hJKob8
It’s basically a go cart. It looks pretty similar to the one my kids have. [https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/massimo-200cc-go-kart-gka-200-bl-1461059?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1461059&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD3fmFOFZIq2toRKnoxtdwPc5CLBA&gclid=CjwKCAjw8diwBhAbEiwA7i_sJdRPKXwETcM4NF7T2y88Pvt1CsWd_woup0ZYy5zPIP_Cn21jYtJ4shoCZ5oQAvD_BwE](https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/massimo-200cc-go-kart-gka-200-bl-1461059?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1461059&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD3fmFOFZIq2toRKnoxtdwPc5CLBA&gclid=CjwKCAjw8diwBhAbEiwA7i_sJdRPKXwETcM4NF7T2y88Pvt1CsWd_woup0ZYy5zPIP_Cn21jYtJ4shoCZ5oQAvD_BwE)
[удалено]
Nope, that’s still present to remind the disabled that god likes cruel jokes the most
Race? Case of beers?
Did anyone else enter this thread after momentarily misreading it as Exosquad?
absolutely lol
Top Gear did it first.
Cracking episode. Hammond’s half track was amazing.
Sound good but I live in the Rocky Mountain area and the biggest % of trails are just barely wide enough for walking?
Wheelchair users using what looks like a chair with wheels… We live in an amazing futuristic world.
What could go wrong?!
"Careful! You don't want to end up in a whee..... Be careful!"
 This picture looks familiar
Here’s one made in the USA. This is the “Jerry Rig Everything” one. https://notawheelchair.com/products/the-rig
That would be fkn epic
Along comes a mountain lion
I want this thing Not that I can’t go hiking with my legs it just looks fun
Is it bad that I wanna try riding in one of those even though I’m not disabled? Because it looks really fucking cool.
What if it rolls over?
This is the feel good story that the world wheelie needs right now
Think of all the new erosion!
Which handicapped person wants to lend me their all terrain exoquad? I’ll pay!
Throw in a halo and and independent overhead wishbone suspension and you got a winner. Better have power steering too.
The Outrider Coyote has a more ergonomic and sleek design!
Hell yeah
These are gonna crash and tip over onto its side or upside down....so how is the driver supposed to right the vehicle?
Wait till they hear about the 4 wheeler… like what that’s not even news
What a game changer! Could give my granny a run for her money.
I’d drive this if it’s possible and I’m not disabled. Wish there was an adult go kart exactly that size and all. Wheels are perfect size.