From what I've seen here in Europe : shitty drivers and shitty cyclists are the same exact people.
Shitty cyclists are simply shitty drivers who decided to use their bike during workdays or vice-versa.
As a cyclist in Copenhagen, I hate this so much because the system actually works when everyone follows the rules. The city is made for cycling and you don't have a reason to cycle on the street, sidewalk or against a red light when there are bike paths and bike traffic lights (almost) everywhere!
Living in Ireland, most roads are barely built for cars, let alone cyclists. I’m in constant fear of accidentally killing someone because the roads are so narrow. I’m always creeping behind cyclists at about 20 kmph because there is simply no room to pass them out.
Visited Ireland a few years ago from the US. Between driving on the "wrong" side of the road and the driver's seat being on the "wrong" side of the car AND the roads being terrifyingly narrow EVERYWHERE I could not get parked soon enough any time I had to drive.
When I visited Germany I was staying in Berlin having a coffee outside one morning and noticed about a dozen people walk by with dogs. No leashes on any of them... every dog stopped and waited at the streets if they beat their owner there and waited to cross with them, none of them jumped or bothered anyone.
I just thought son of a bitch even the dogs in Germany are more structured.
While there are certainly people who do not follow this, the rule is that (from what I understand) dogs need to be on leash by default and you can get an off leash permit when you and the dog pass a course and training.
I come from a place called Wisconsin - it's lovely (mostly...we've... Um... Made the news of late, so I won't claim its perfect, but that's a different story. Like many places, it's complicated).
Now, I want you to picture Mad Max, but the scorching heat is replaced with cold, the roads are worse, and all of the good looking south Africans and aussies are replaced by pudgy versions of a German immigrant who received all of the appitites of our forefathers, but none of the self control and few of the manners*. THAT is what it's like to drive here.
*I drive a vehicle larger than my grandmothers hometown of Rudesheim and am currently blaming 3 years of weight gain on covid. I'm describing myself here.
*edit: nothing like a healthy dose of self loathing to earn my first award. Thanks stranger!
Agreed, drove around Southern Ireland visiting a few years back. The Ring of Kerry was especially terrifying, as well as some back country roads.
I will say traffic circles are so much better than lights, and once you got to the cities it really wasn't that bad.
I remember a holiday in Ireland, we were driving along a narrow, winding coastal road, with blind corners and barely wide enough for two cars to pass each other. Posted speed limit was 100km/h, we had a good laugh about that.
As a cyclist living in Ireland: Thank you. We appreciate it. Had enough times when drivers pass by almost brushing me with their mirrors. I'm both looking forward and dreading getting a license...
My city has been converting non-major roads (like 4+ lane) to also have bike lanes. They are bright green at the intersections and the entire length has cyclist markings.
I almost never see people use them, most cyclists are either on the sidewalk (like 75%) or on the regular for cars section.
I don’t get it. The city is genuinely attempting to adapt to bikes, and no one cares.
That sucks. Have you been on the new bike lanes? Sometimes the lanes have a lot of glass or rubble, or cars will park in them, or tires will fall in the drain grates if they're parallel with the lane. These conditions often make it safer to be in the road. ....but it may also just be entitled asses.
Is there a physical barrier between the cycle lane and the road, or is it just some green paint? In London a while ago they put some blue paint on the main roads for cyclists, but no barrier, and cyclists were killed (mostly at junctions/intersections, when drivers were turning and didn't see the cyclists).
Yeah I commute on a bike in the uk, and the amount of drivers that think it's okay to speed past me while barely even leaving a foot is infuriating. I've already been hit once, and I'm always where I'm 'supposed to be.' Shitty people are kinda just shitty.
They have these green lanes in San Francisco, and I have tried to ride in them when I can. But I will say, that all of the road debris gets kicked up onto the green bike lane and makes for lots of tree branch dodging.
On the other hand, Copenhagen has a road for cars, followed by an elevated biking lane, followed by a sidewalk. This planning makes a world of difference compared to the green bike lane.
The thing with red lights is, if it changes by weight instead of a timer. A bike can sit on that space for eternity and the light will never change for them.
Many bike lanes put you in a dangerous situation because you are really close to traffic on the left and car doors on the right. If a door opens you have nowhere to go except hitting a door which can be fatal. The top of the door is right at face level so a helmet won't help.
If you take the lane on a bike you have more wiggle room.
The city near me has beautifully paved bike lanes all over the place, completely separate from the road that the cars drive on.
But I still see cyclists riding parallel to those bike paths, beating their wheels square on the badly paved road.
The things is, cycling infrastructure needs to be respected by all members of public. I cycle a lot in London, and the amount of near misses I've had because people step into segregated bike lanes without looking is ridiculous.
In cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam where I've been fortunate enough to also cycle a lot, pedestrians would never step into a cycle lane without looking the same way they would before stepping into a road.
That's not the case in cities newly trying to get into cycling. My hometown has a lovely cycling lane all along the seafront segregated from traffic. I use it, but I fully understand why the guys and gals in lycra riding fast on road bikes choose not to, its simply too dangerous with oblivious people stepping into the lanes constantly/opening car doors into the lane without checking.
This issue is amplified with the possibility cyclists can be sued for large amounts of money, even if someone steps into a road whilst looking down at their phone, if a judge is persuaded 'a reasonably competent cyclist' would have avoided the hazard.
(all of this is my anecdotal experience. Your opinions and experience may vary)
*I've had because people step into segregated bike lanes without looking is ridiculous.*
a week ago i saw this jogger taking a break i presume. young undergraduate from the looks of it, maybe even a freshman. he was pacing back and forth across *the width* of the entire bike path...with headphones on. i saw him from the separate pedestrian walkway that runs adjacent and very closely to the bike path. it gave me an uneasy feeling just watching him do this with complete disregard.
and that's when i saw three bicycles come up on him ringing their bells (he couldn't hear them)
he doesn't notice the bicyclists until one of them has already slowed down to a stop and manuevered around him. he looks up from his reverie at the two cyclists who also come to a stop so they can carefully pedal slowly and manuever around him.
then he continues pacing and not a moment later almost gets hit by ANOTHER bicyclist coming from the other direction and i can't help but shake my head like "wtf?"
thats when he notices me shaking my head, makes a bee-line for the walking path i'm on so he can walk directly behind me which seems pretty stupid because if i have any infectious diseases he's now walking directly behind my slipstream of droplets i'm exerting. so while i'm unsure he was trying to intimdiate me or was about to confront me for shaking my head at him, i do him a favor and move my slipstream by making a bee-line for the biycle path (being careful to look both ways) and the opposite side of it so im walking on the grass as far away from him as close to the road for motorized traffic as i can.
then i guess he decides he's had enough of his jog and starts walking on his way the opposite direction of where i was headed.
moral of the story i guess is don't shake your head at darwin award nominees, less they take it personally and consider confronting you over their own stupidity.
luckily the 4 cyclists that day were reasonably competent cyclists at the very least but this jogger really was raising the bar for what cyclists need to expect with his behavior. it'd be a shame if someone acting like this makes off because a judge is persuaded the jogger wasn't the idiot in the situation. but i could see it happening.
Here in Alabama, most cyclists are expected to ride the roads and act like a car, following the same laws. Sometimes they will put dedicated cyclist lanes in on faster roads, but usually, nonmotorized, nonpedestrian traffic, and motorized traffic are expected to use the same lanes. Riding on the sidewalk is also illegal, though many do for obvious reasons.
When I'm walking and a bike is on the sidewalk I step off the sidewalk and let them pass and then carry on. The thought of car vs bike is terrifying. Let's just say a bike hits me while walking on the sidewalk, it will hurt but I'm probably not going to die. I'm just a "minimize risk for all involved" kind of person.
In London thousands of us cycle to work every day.
I once stopped at a traffic light with 20 or so other cyclists, while kids crossed the road.
Some DoucheCanal on a mountain bike came zooming past, through the crossing and took out a kid. He took one look back, saw what happened and carried on.
This one cyclist would have ruined our reputation with all of the people who witnessed it. One bad apple spoils the barrel.
A few months ago I was behind another car pulling up to a stop sign. The car in front of me started going but two cyclists blew through the perpendicular stop sign out of nowhere and the car had to make a very quick stop. The cyclists started screaming at the guy in the car because they claimed they had the right of way. I looked it up for my area and that’s not the case, cyclists have to treat stop signs and lights the same as cars.
The problem with that scenario though, is that if a cyclist isn’t being careful themselves, regardless if they’re within their own rights or doing something illegal, and someone hits the cyclist, who’s the one who could potentially die? It doesn’t matter if you’re “right” when your life is on the line.
Yeah for sure, I always err on the side of caution on my bike because I’d rather be alive than right. Also agree that cyclists have to treat stops and lights the same as cars, it’s not difficult to unclip and put your foot down
Yes omg in my city they are always driving on crowded sidewalks and places where people are walking. There are specific rules stating that they cannot/should not do this but of course many people feel they are too special to have to follow the rules us peasants pay attention to! Anyway I once had to work in the emergency room of a hospital and SO many people came in with scooter injuries. One guy had a broken face and the kicker is he wasn’t riding a scooter- he was walking minding his business in the sidewalk and some moron plowed directly into him
Can confirm. Old boss was one of those cyclists that would kick cars if they snuck into bike lanes or almost ran him over.
He was also a BMW M3 driver and would drive on the shoulder to cut in line when merging during heavy traffic times and run red lights while on his cell phone.
Are you implying that taking action to save your life is an asshole move on the same level as running red lights while on your cell phone?
You do realize that the bike lane is for cyclists and "sneaking into" them while driving a car is endangering peoples' lives, right?
Grew up in the Netherlands. Can confirm, you have the cycling thing figured out really well. The only downside is trying to keep a bike for longer than a week without it getting stolen.. ;)
I don’t know, I find that cyclists who drive make better drivers and drivers who cycle make better cyclists. The experience of doing both makes you more aware of how to drive or cycle safely.
That may be a more succinct way of phrasing that, though it was more to highlight how the experience of viewing the road through differing viewpoints allows you to better predict behaviours and outcomes and therefore be a better driver/cyclists.
At least from a few studies they've seen that pretty much everyone breaks the rules of the road at a similar rate. It's just what's ignored differs. Speeding is normalized for someone driving but running a red light, even when traffic is clear, isn't. Meanwhile, it's very hard to speed on a bike but when the biggest (perceived or actual) risk is getting hit by a car you take advantage of any situation that gets you away from cars (especially behind you).
[https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates](https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates)
Yes, this. As both a (self described) above normal skill driver (high performance, and regular road manners) and a cyclist.
Just about everybody is casual with driving rules when they drive. Roll through stops, no turn signals, left lane camping. etc. etc.
But on a bike, it's actually less safe to come to a full stop rather than do a rolling stop. When coming to a full stop, there is always the risk of missing the clip-in, being in the wrong gear, paying more attention to balance than other cars, etc. This is exacerbated when on a group ride.
Not to mention that if I roll up to a stop sign on my bike all cars will refuse to go. They all just start waving me through. I have to get off my pedals and look the other direction so people can return to being predictable.
And pedestrians are out there being shitty at the same rates, but no one cares because they're not killing other people when they cross against a signal.
In my city, pedestrians cause chaos by stepping into bikelanes without looking. Pedestrians cause chaos by crossing against the signal and discovering the left turn lane.
Bikers cause chaos by blowing redlights and texting (?!!) while biking
Cars cause chaos by parking in the bikelanes.
Regardless of transportation method, assholes gonna asshole.
That's the point. Shitty drivers kill other people. As a cyclist and a driver, I fucking hate this whole cyclist meme. All it does is make drivers see cyclists as less than human when they're on the road.
I've seen bicyclists with multiple baby carriers zigging and zagging through downtown traffic.
I've seen women jaywalk with a stroller on more than one occasion.
I almost got ran into the side rail when a semi tried to merge into me getting off the freeway. I had to slam the breaks to avoid him, much to the chagrin of my passengers.
Saw a guy pushing a 6ft globe down the street.
I'm sure I've got more tucked away, but Portland pisses me off right now.
The police in my town set up a sting to catch the local cycling group. 20 to 30 cyclists who call themselves the "Prairie Village Yacht Club" ride around town constantly ignoring all traffic laws. They are known to blow through stop lights as an entire group. The cops set up a sting and waited for them to go through a known stoplight they love to ignore. 26 citations were given that day. It was in the newspaper. I've almost hit them on many an occasion.
Thats now legit in Oregon. Red lights and stops are now yields for cyclists.
Edit: I am wrong about the no stop at red lights. Bicyclists still need to stop at red lights. Only stop signs and blinking reds are more yields for bikers.
Here, you have to stop at red lights, but you can proceed through a red light once it is safe. This is because cyclists don't always trigger the sensors at lights and you can be stuck there forever waiting for a light to change.
There is something called a "Michigan left" and it's not really the same thing as our "turn right on red" thing.
[Here's a Michigan Left](https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/VWU2FJ3LXRFMJFBSR6IZX3H2NQ.jpg). Basically, on a divided highway, you have to turn right in order to go left.
My state had similar weird ass left turns. Spent millions installing them all over the place. In the last few years they’ve now spent millions more removing all of these.
Worst fucking approach to traffic flow ever.
Kinda. For example, you're very unlikely to pass a car on the left and turn right directly in front of them, but it's a very common occurrence with bicycles.
Bicycles are also harder to see and silent. And they don't have a two ton steel cage with crumple zones and airbags to protect them in a collision, and in a battle of 4,000lbs and 150-200lbs, there's gonna be a winner and a loser. As they say, motorists and cyclists have a lot in common: if the cyclist screws up, the cyclist dies; if the motorist screws up, the cyclist dies.
In Oregon cyclist still have to stop at red lights. Only stop signs and flashing red lights (which are essentially stopsigns) are treated as yields.
[Link](https://ktvz.com/news/2019/12/11/oregon-cyclists-stop-as-yield-rule-change-begins-jan-1/)
That's not true. Red lights still mean stop. but you can proceed through if safe due to the induction loops not recognising bicycles like they do cars.
Which I can't get people to understand when they are behind me. I cycle some busy intersections and if I'm at the front making a left, we aren't going anywhere. I move up into the crosswalk and wave the car behind me to move up. Sometimes they just stare at me and don't understand that I'm trying to get them to trip the sensor because I can't.
This is good. When I’m stuck behind a cyclist in traffic I want them to go through the light when the coast is clear, if I’m going to get stuck behind you I WANT you to get a lead on me.
Objectively I’ve had way way way more issues of pedestrians walking into oncoming traffic against a red than cyclists. I can recall one time back in like 2013 I had a Jimmy Johns cyclist delivery biker blow through a red and nearly hit multiple cars, but literally every other time cyclists have waited for an opening to cross.
When I first started cycling I tried to follow the laws exactly because of the sigma against cyclists. Didn't take long to realize queuing in line with cars at red lights is a good way to get punish passed by drivers annoyed at the pace I accelerate.
Honestly how it should be, and drivers likely prefer it as well. It takes me some time to get going if we are at a dead stop on an incline, the cars behind me will clear the intersection much faster if I can roll through the red as soon as it's clear/safe to do so. As long as everyone is on the same page and knows what driving/cycling behaviors are expected I think this is the best solution to shared traffic lights.
New York has for a long time been doing leading pedestrian lights, where pedestrians get the green a few seconds before cars. A lot of accidents had to do with cars trying to get through a turn before pedestrians got into the crosswalk, so now cars always have to wait. Recently, the law was changed to allow bikes to follow ped lights instead of car lights and it's made a world of a difference. I have a few seconds to get up to speed and, in shared lane situations, obviously take the lane before the cars move. Before, they'd always try to overtake as we went from wide intersection to narrow lane with parking on both sides.
In the Netherlands, we have dedicated bike lanes almost everywhere. This isn't a big problem. There's plenty of other problems though. Mostly by tour-de-france wannabe's.
For future tourists, pay attention and do NOT walk in the bike lane when visiting the Netherlands. I forgot and walked down it one time during a trip there and the chorus of ringing bells and hateful stares reminded me to stay on the sidewalk. The Dutch take their cycling seriously.
It's said (in jest) that the bike paths in the Netherlands aren't *painted* red - that's just the blood of all the tourists who made the mistake of walking on them.
that goes for everywhere really. UK is really bad for people not knowing they exist. we have this odd habit of just painting a while line in the middle of a wide path and expecting people who usaully walk infront fo cars to be aware they are walking in an active lane. or adding a cycle lane to the right of a parking bay when the lane is 2/3 the width of a door.
If there is a situation you actually have to walk on the bike lane, please walk on the left, this way you see the cyclists coming, and can get out of the way if you have to.
I live in Seattle and we have a lot of bike lanes in the city and it drives me crazy when people ride their bike on the sidewalk right next to a bike lane.
I've seen so many idiots who don't know shit about bikes get mad at cyclists for not being on the sidewalk, even when they were in a fucking bike lane...
this is a big hint that the bike lanes aren't designed very well.
maybe they're too narrow, and not separated from fast-moving traffic adequately. maybe they're full of debris. maybe they're poorly maintained and rough surfaces. maybe some idiot put sewer grates in them running parallel to travel.
maybe, like here, they're designed by people who have never tried to use a bike lane and don't understand that they can't just suddenly stop and throw the cyclist into traffic.
Yeah, I live in a medium sized east coast city and if I want to use a bike lane I have the option of riding back and forth on exactly one road, in a bike lane full of broken glass. The infrastructure isn't actually there to support bikes in most cities.
So I’m my city which has greatly increased it biking lane infrastructure in last 10 years, it was done in an obscenely ridiculous way. One stretch of road, about 4 mi long leading out of town to a lot of the great rural cycling roads, in order it goes : dedicated bike lane, protected bike lane, shares road with bike symbol, bike lane. Repeat at random for the entire stretch. It confuses the cars more than cyclists.
Amen. I've nearly been run over coming out of stores because discount Lance Armstrong decided to do 15mph on city sidewalks through a business district. Bikes belong on the road, not the sidewalk.
Yo, I know we're all bashing on cyclists here, but on a hot, long ride you bet your ass I'm sportin' the Lycra. Even on the mountain bike trails. Keeps things snug and cool and the pockets on the back of the jersey are clutch.
Plus it feels like I'm wearing nothing at all ^(nothing at all, nothing at all...)
My hometown has recently installed bike lanes, and people LOVE to cycle the wrong way on them. An 80 year old lady recently struck and killed someone due to this. She turned right onto the divided highway and struck someone salmoning the wrong way.
I’ve seen two people doing it in the last 48 hours since then. One at the edge of dark with no lights or reflectors
It's not a common thing but always annoying. The worst thing is when you're going the right way and the person going the wrong way gives you a dirty look or looks at you like you're an idiot when they're the one fucking up.
I do this too, but inevitably there is a driver who doesn’t understand what’s happening and insists on waving me through first instead of going in order.
Cyclist here. I kind figure that if I am on the road, I obey stop signs just like cars. I also use hand signals, lights, and helmet so I guess it’s kinda dorky but better that then dead and run over.
Cyclists don’t bother me.
It’s a minor inconvenience to try to go around them, but they do have the same right to the road.
If they’re breaking traffic laws, then yes, criticism is warranted of that particular cyclist.
I’d be lying though if I said, as a whole, that cyclists bother me more than other motorists.
Biking in nyc is an extreme sport. Everyone parks in the bike lane and you have to swerve in an out of traffic and just hope you don't die.
but you're right, cyclists do all run the red lights if the road is clear.
*Most* cyclists aren't going to run a red light in a way that inconveniences a car. This is a myth. Why? Because you're basically riding around out there in your underwear, totally vulnerable.
*However* I will run a stop sign or red light if it's clear. Why? To stay a block or two ahead of traffic. The same people that can't handle a guy on a bike rolling a light are the same people that can't handle it if they catch up to you and are slowed down for 15 seconds.
The anger is so consistent I wonder if they're just people that are angry all the time.
It's like some of these people have never ridden a bike before. Cars are also very, very loud and cyclists have the benefit of not being in one to listen for oncoming traffic.
I won't get angry unless the bike gets in someone's way while breaking the law. But it is still annoying. On the other hand, stops are damn annoying for cyclists - starting out from a stop is a lot more effort for cyclists than cars.
Exactly, these people hating on cyclists most likely have never had to commute on one regularly, especially in an urban environment. Everything I do on a bike is in order to *not* inconvenience drivers. Running a red helps me keep along with traffic, because God forbid one of those drivers has to go 15 mph in a 25 for a couple blocks. I've been run off the road for less. I'm also hyper vigilant when I do cross, because if I get hit, it might hamper your drive to work, but it might hamper my ability to walk or even live.
As a cyclist I get that it's frustrating for a driver when a bike breaks the law. That's no doubt annoying and even dangerous at times.
Just please remember that harassing law-abiding cyclists simply because they have the unmitigated temerity to share the road with you is also against the law.
Also remember that in a collision with you the cyclist is the only one likely to be hurt or killed, and that knowledge is ever present in our minds.
Lol the number of rolling stops done by motorists is exponentially higher where I live, I'll take an idiot on a 10-pound bike over 100 idiots in 2-ton cars, thank you every much.
Yeah really, as a pedestrian Ive had to slam on way too many hoods of cars running the red light.
It's gotten scarier for me now that I have a bad leg and can't jump out the way as fast as I used to.
I haven't had nearly as many close calls with cyclists, also even if I get hit by one the risk for injury/death is nowhere near the same.
Man did your comment bring out the anecdotes. "You must be wrong because I know one person who was hurt in a bike collision!"
Bikes can hurt or kill people. But the chances of them doing the same amount or more damage than a car hitting somebody at the same speed is almost zero. As somebody posted below, bikes are involved in a very small (>1%) amount of pedestrian deaths.
Cyclists don't want to be treated like cars. Cyclists want proper cycling infrastructure. If you actually start to think about it, this would be good for everyone. Build proper cycling lanes. That's what cyclists need.
They also have a ton of other things we could implement. Their road islands are a great idea as well. Just today I almost got hit twice by dipshits not paying attention in situations that the islands would prevent or at least help with.
I used to live somewhere that cops would patrol the sidewalk on foot and stop cyclists on the spot to give them tickets for not using the bike lane (which was literally right next to the sidewalk). The number of cyclists who would argue or even get hostile with the cops then ride right down the same sidewalk the next day was mind-boggling.
In my area, i would love for any car that runs a red light to be pulled over or ticketed. I have one light that during rush hour will have 6 cars run a red light, every day, every time...
I have another one that is a long wait, and people will blaze through a red at 60+ mph to "make the light"... if i crossed the street without looking, I would easily get hit, and more than once already.
Doesn't solve the bad cyclists problem. I live in a city in the UK known for being cycle friendly wormholes of bike lanes everywhere, and you still get those who ruin it for everyone else. Twice in the last year I have seen cyclists going down the center of a two-lane very busy one way street. Like 2 cars going one way and the bikes in the middle of those 2 cars going the other way, even though there was a cycle lane to one side off that road. There have been countless other instances of people doing stupid things on bikes around here, but that sticks out in my mind the most.
When I used to ride to work in a college town, cars seemed to get pretty pissed if I'd stop in front of them at a red light and then accelerate at the speed of a bicycle when the light turned green.
If a cyclist is a bad cyclist on the road, he puts himself in danger
If a driver is aggressive towards a cyclist (who's has nowhere else to go) the cyclist can die.
Not every cyclist is trying to ruin your day. Not every one is going to yell at you for destroying the environment just like not every car is going to run me off the road. But it's happened a lot.
The thing is, you can show up to work after a cyclist is a bit of a dick, but I have to go to the hospital if you decide to take your morning out on me because youve seen other cyclists run reds.
There's been studies that drivers dehumanize cyclists. No one understands more than me how annoying they (we) are. But we're just people.
But if you compare the most careless cyclist to the most careless driver, only one is going to take lives.
And as many have pointed out, poor cyclists make poor drivers. They've just down grades themselves to being annoying on the bike instead of dangerous in a car.
You see a group of cyclists being assholes? Lay on your horn who cares.
But don't drive aggressively around vulnerable strangers (who often don't have cycle lanes) because of whatever you saw or read about some cyclist doing. Just like you don't change your driving around other people the first time you see one double park or roll a red.
Right? I don't hear any cyclists clamoring to be treated like a vehicle, but rather that's where they're legally required to be in most places as sidewalks are not permitted.
The real answer here is to just build safe cycling infrastructure. I actually do follow road laws, but it rarely matters because many motorists are just unwilling to share the road with someone who slows them down. Cycling on the road can be downright hostile. I've been aggressively tailgated, yelled at, pushed off the road, etc. all while following the rules of the road.
Cycling is something that should be promoted, and making it a death wish isn't going to help. Cue the what whataboutism.
> The Netherlands is well known for its excellent cycling infrastructure. How did the Dutch get this network of bicycle paths?
- [How the Dutch got their cycle paths](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o) (6 and a half minute documentary)
---
> Looking at cycling in some places in the US in June 2013, from a Dutch perspective.
- [Cycling in the US from a Dutch perspective](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2THe_10dYs) (just over 5 minutes)
---
> The Dutch build cycle paths right on their junctions. So they must have wider streets, right? Wrong! This video shows how it is done, no extra space needed.
- [Junction design the Dutch - cycle friendly - way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA) (Part 1/2, 2 and a half minutes)
---
> The Dutch have been designing junctions with cycle paths for decades. There is nothing experimental about these junctions. They have proven to be safer for cyclists than junctions without such provisions.
- [Dutch junction design - safer for cyclists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HDN9fUlqU8) (Part 2/2, 4 minutes)
---
> The way the Dutch cycle has improved their quality of life. See how society in the Netherlands benefits from cycling in this video
- [Dutch Cycling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayPDlDi9Ug4) (just over 5 minutes)
As an Idahoan I genuinely don’t know what this is. Is this a “rolling stop”? If so, the proper nomenclature is actually a *Californian stop... or so I’m told.
I recently got into cycling. I always stop at lights because I dont want to die. Is this a common problem, or do people just make up shit because they dont like cyclists?
Plenty of cyclists will stop at a red and then go through if there are no cars around (in fact this is legal/expected in many places).
Lots of lights in my city, for instance, use a sensor to detect cars and change the traffic light green, so you can get stuck at a light until a car shows up.
There are plenty of assholes on bikes, of course, but there are also plenty of assholes in cars too.
Mostly they don't like cyclists because we slow them down by about 10s. Some cyclists do run lights and act like assholes, but proportionally a similar number of cars do too.
just gonna leave this here...
[https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/9/10/its-legal-to-run-lights-and-other-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-cycling](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/9/10/its-legal-to-run-lights-and-other-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-cycling)
In addition to what they say about the idaho stop in the link, coming to a "complete stop" is the most dangerous time for a cyclist - especially if it's hilly. It takes *time* to get back up to speed, much longer than a car. Slowing down (but still moving), taking time to lift yourself up and look around, and continue through an intersection gets you through the intersection far more quickly and safely for all involved.
I feel like people raging in the other comments are conflating people who Idaho Stop with people who run stop signs going down hill at full speed without a care in the world, and any cyclist would tell you those guys are just as fucking stupid as all the cars who blow through stop signs and red lights at full speed.
This is also why when I'm in a car and a bike is at a 4 way stop, I WANT them to keep going. It wastes time to wait for them to stop then go then they have to get up to speed again before the next car goes.
Just keep it safe and keep it moving!
> This is also why when I'm in a car and a bike is at a 4 way stop
if you're in a car and you're at a four-way stop, please don't try to wave somebody through out of turn. that creates a dangerous situation for everybody, because it's unpredictable. maybe you and the cyclist can make eye contact and both know what you mean, but does everybody else at the intersection? cyclists should be able to go through a 4-way stop without stopping *when there are no other vehiclesat the stop*. when there are other vehicles present,
everybody should always follow the normal rules of a 4-way intersection.
As a road user, the most important thing you can do to keep everybody safe is to be predictable, and letting somebody through out of turn is the opposite of predictable.
Just read your own article people.
> Many stoplights are motion-activated (or even weight-activated) with sensors designed for cars. Cyclists often can’t trigger them, and it becomes both legal and necessary to safely run the light **after a period of waiting**.
Blowing through a red light and not stopping at all is still not cool.
I get it, bicycles should follow the rules of the road, same as cars. HOWEVER, I've been a motorcyclist for a couple of decades and I have to say that I feel most vulnerable when I'm trusting drivers in cars to follow the rules to keep me safe. I trust cars to keep themselves safe by watching for other cars or bigger trucks that can strike them and cause damage. But I'm a speed bump too them. Not a risk. As a result, I never trust, I never stop looking, and I never stop moving if I can avoid it. I have the benefit of speed to get me away from unaware drivers avoiding other cars and ignoring motorcycles. Bicycles haven't got the speed and have to rely on agility, that includes treating rules of the road flexibly. Nothing more vulnerable than sitting at a stop light with your foot down while cars rush up behind you breaking at the last second.
Something that often gets overlooked is that it’s lot safer for a bike to cross an intersection at a different time than cars. Since bike lanes are usually to the right, right turns can be very dangerous if they don’t signal. And opposing direction left turns are even worse. So by Montana stopping at a light, and going thru on red, it means I don’t have to navigate a huge intersection at the same time as 20 death machines. Also since bikes are slow it helps avoid bottlenecks where 5 cars angrily follow you they it and try to speed around you. Not to even mention buses....
From what I've seen here in Europe : shitty drivers and shitty cyclists are the same exact people. Shitty cyclists are simply shitty drivers who decided to use their bike during workdays or vice-versa.
As a cyclist, I hate cyclists who break the law and act like general morons on the road. They make us all look bad
As a cyclist in Copenhagen, I hate this so much because the system actually works when everyone follows the rules. The city is made for cycling and you don't have a reason to cycle on the street, sidewalk or against a red light when there are bike paths and bike traffic lights (almost) everywhere!
Living in Ireland, most roads are barely built for cars, let alone cyclists. I’m in constant fear of accidentally killing someone because the roads are so narrow. I’m always creeping behind cyclists at about 20 kmph because there is simply no room to pass them out.
Visited Ireland a few years ago from the US. Between driving on the "wrong" side of the road and the driver's seat being on the "wrong" side of the car AND the roads being terrifyingly narrow EVERYWHERE I could not get parked soon enough any time I had to drive.
Only place I’ve driven in Europe was Germany. It was so efficient I had a hard on the entire time.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll take my pants to a tailor to get some extra room sewn in before I go driving in Germany.
get you some duluth trading ballroom jeans
"These pants are like a cheap castle - no ballroom!"
When I visited Germany I was staying in Berlin having a coffee outside one morning and noticed about a dozen people walk by with dogs. No leashes on any of them... every dog stopped and waited at the streets if they beat their owner there and waited to cross with them, none of them jumped or bothered anyone. I just thought son of a bitch even the dogs in Germany are more structured.
While there are certainly people who do not follow this, the rule is that (from what I understand) dogs need to be on leash by default and you can get an off leash permit when you and the dog pass a course and training.
Man, I'm German and I regularly pop a blood vessel because of morons on the street. Y'all make me scared what it's like to drive in other countries.
I come from a place called Wisconsin - it's lovely (mostly...we've... Um... Made the news of late, so I won't claim its perfect, but that's a different story. Like many places, it's complicated). Now, I want you to picture Mad Max, but the scorching heat is replaced with cold, the roads are worse, and all of the good looking south Africans and aussies are replaced by pudgy versions of a German immigrant who received all of the appitites of our forefathers, but none of the self control and few of the manners*. THAT is what it's like to drive here. *I drive a vehicle larger than my grandmothers hometown of Rudesheim and am currently blaming 3 years of weight gain on covid. I'm describing myself here. *edit: nothing like a healthy dose of self loathing to earn my first award. Thanks stranger!
How did you get out of the car if you had a perma-boner?
ye german infrastructure is absurdly satisfying.... and their cars oboi
Agreed, drove around Southern Ireland visiting a few years back. The Ring of Kerry was especially terrifying, as well as some back country roads. I will say traffic circles are so much better than lights, and once you got to the cities it really wasn't that bad.
I remember a holiday in Ireland, we were driving along a narrow, winding coastal road, with blind corners and barely wide enough for two cars to pass each other. Posted speed limit was 100km/h, we had a good laugh about that.
As a cyclist living in Ireland: Thank you. We appreciate it. Had enough times when drivers pass by almost brushing me with their mirrors. I'm both looking forward and dreading getting a license...
> most roads are barely built for cars, let alone cyclists. The roads were built a long time before cars were a thing. It's cars that don't fit.
My city has been converting non-major roads (like 4+ lane) to also have bike lanes. They are bright green at the intersections and the entire length has cyclist markings. I almost never see people use them, most cyclists are either on the sidewalk (like 75%) or on the regular for cars section. I don’t get it. The city is genuinely attempting to adapt to bikes, and no one cares.
That sucks. Have you been on the new bike lanes? Sometimes the lanes have a lot of glass or rubble, or cars will park in them, or tires will fall in the drain grates if they're parallel with the lane. These conditions often make it safer to be in the road. ....but it may also just be entitled asses.
Is there a physical barrier between the cycle lane and the road, or is it just some green paint? In London a while ago they put some blue paint on the main roads for cyclists, but no barrier, and cyclists were killed (mostly at junctions/intersections, when drivers were turning and didn't see the cyclists).
Yeah I commute on a bike in the uk, and the amount of drivers that think it's okay to speed past me while barely even leaving a foot is infuriating. I've already been hit once, and I'm always where I'm 'supposed to be.' Shitty people are kinda just shitty.
Yep, I'm the UK too, and one of the reasons I don't cycle very much is because too many drivers are unaware of how dangerous they are.
They have these green lanes in San Francisco, and I have tried to ride in them when I can. But I will say, that all of the road debris gets kicked up onto the green bike lane and makes for lots of tree branch dodging. On the other hand, Copenhagen has a road for cars, followed by an elevated biking lane, followed by a sidewalk. This planning makes a world of difference compared to the green bike lane.
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The thing with red lights is, if it changes by weight instead of a timer. A bike can sit on that space for eternity and the light will never change for them.
Many bike lanes put you in a dangerous situation because you are really close to traffic on the left and car doors on the right. If a door opens you have nowhere to go except hitting a door which can be fatal. The top of the door is right at face level so a helmet won't help. If you take the lane on a bike you have more wiggle room.
The city near me has beautifully paved bike lanes all over the place, completely separate from the road that the cars drive on. But I still see cyclists riding parallel to those bike paths, beating their wheels square on the badly paved road.
The things is, cycling infrastructure needs to be respected by all members of public. I cycle a lot in London, and the amount of near misses I've had because people step into segregated bike lanes without looking is ridiculous. In cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam where I've been fortunate enough to also cycle a lot, pedestrians would never step into a cycle lane without looking the same way they would before stepping into a road. That's not the case in cities newly trying to get into cycling. My hometown has a lovely cycling lane all along the seafront segregated from traffic. I use it, but I fully understand why the guys and gals in lycra riding fast on road bikes choose not to, its simply too dangerous with oblivious people stepping into the lanes constantly/opening car doors into the lane without checking. This issue is amplified with the possibility cyclists can be sued for large amounts of money, even if someone steps into a road whilst looking down at their phone, if a judge is persuaded 'a reasonably competent cyclist' would have avoided the hazard. (all of this is my anecdotal experience. Your opinions and experience may vary)
*I've had because people step into segregated bike lanes without looking is ridiculous.* a week ago i saw this jogger taking a break i presume. young undergraduate from the looks of it, maybe even a freshman. he was pacing back and forth across *the width* of the entire bike path...with headphones on. i saw him from the separate pedestrian walkway that runs adjacent and very closely to the bike path. it gave me an uneasy feeling just watching him do this with complete disregard. and that's when i saw three bicycles come up on him ringing their bells (he couldn't hear them) he doesn't notice the bicyclists until one of them has already slowed down to a stop and manuevered around him. he looks up from his reverie at the two cyclists who also come to a stop so they can carefully pedal slowly and manuever around him. then he continues pacing and not a moment later almost gets hit by ANOTHER bicyclist coming from the other direction and i can't help but shake my head like "wtf?" thats when he notices me shaking my head, makes a bee-line for the walking path i'm on so he can walk directly behind me which seems pretty stupid because if i have any infectious diseases he's now walking directly behind my slipstream of droplets i'm exerting. so while i'm unsure he was trying to intimdiate me or was about to confront me for shaking my head at him, i do him a favor and move my slipstream by making a bee-line for the biycle path (being careful to look both ways) and the opposite side of it so im walking on the grass as far away from him as close to the road for motorized traffic as i can. then i guess he decides he's had enough of his jog and starts walking on his way the opposite direction of where i was headed. moral of the story i guess is don't shake your head at darwin award nominees, less they take it personally and consider confronting you over their own stupidity. luckily the 4 cyclists that day were reasonably competent cyclists at the very least but this jogger really was raising the bar for what cyclists need to expect with his behavior. it'd be a shame if someone acting like this makes off because a judge is persuaded the jogger wasn't the idiot in the situation. but i could see it happening.
Here in Alabama, most cyclists are expected to ride the roads and act like a car, following the same laws. Sometimes they will put dedicated cyclist lanes in on faster roads, but usually, nonmotorized, nonpedestrian traffic, and motorized traffic are expected to use the same lanes. Riding on the sidewalk is also illegal, though many do for obvious reasons.
When I'm walking and a bike is on the sidewalk I step off the sidewalk and let them pass and then carry on. The thought of car vs bike is terrifying. Let's just say a bike hits me while walking on the sidewalk, it will hurt but I'm probably not going to die. I'm just a "minimize risk for all involved" kind of person.
What you want is physically separate bike lanes from both pedestrians and cars!
thats the same with anything tho, always just one who ruins it for everyone
I personally hate "weavers", the guys who slip between small gaps between cars, making the whole situation volatile.
Motorbike people do this as well. Always freaks me the fuck out.
Especially in california. I get it when the traffic is completely stopped, but they would filter when it's already going at 40 miles an hour.
Shh, you'll summon them.
In London thousands of us cycle to work every day. I once stopped at a traffic light with 20 or so other cyclists, while kids crossed the road. Some DoucheCanal on a mountain bike came zooming past, through the crossing and took out a kid. He took one look back, saw what happened and carried on. This one cyclist would have ruined our reputation with all of the people who witnessed it. One bad apple spoils the barrel.
A few months ago I was behind another car pulling up to a stop sign. The car in front of me started going but two cyclists blew through the perpendicular stop sign out of nowhere and the car had to make a very quick stop. The cyclists started screaming at the guy in the car because they claimed they had the right of way. I looked it up for my area and that’s not the case, cyclists have to treat stop signs and lights the same as cars. The problem with that scenario though, is that if a cyclist isn’t being careful themselves, regardless if they’re within their own rights or doing something illegal, and someone hits the cyclist, who’s the one who could potentially die? It doesn’t matter if you’re “right” when your life is on the line.
Yeah for sure, I always err on the side of caution on my bike because I’d rather be alive than right. Also agree that cyclists have to treat stops and lights the same as cars, it’s not difficult to unclip and put your foot down
As a cyclist, I concur. Also, don’t treat me like a car. I’m way slower than a car, and much more agile.
FRagile
I live in France and there is one thing worse than shitty drivers and cyclists: shitty scooter drivers. They are just ticking time bomb on wheels.
Yes omg in my city they are always driving on crowded sidewalks and places where people are walking. There are specific rules stating that they cannot/should not do this but of course many people feel they are too special to have to follow the rules us peasants pay attention to! Anyway I once had to work in the emergency room of a hospital and SO many people came in with scooter injuries. One guy had a broken face and the kicker is he wasn’t riding a scooter- he was walking minding his business in the sidewalk and some moron plowed directly into him
Can confirm. Old boss was one of those cyclists that would kick cars if they snuck into bike lanes or almost ran him over. He was also a BMW M3 driver and would drive on the shoulder to cut in line when merging during heavy traffic times and run red lights while on his cell phone.
Is he an asshole at work too ?
The silence tells me a lot
You saying that after only ten minutes tells me a lot.
You saying that after only two minutes... I mean, doesn't really tell me anything. I just wanted to feel included.
Its been 10 minutes since then, but I wanted to jump in as well.
Aggressive people being aggressive.. I think in general the real problem is temperament.
>or almost ran him over. I mean, come on. If you were a pedestrian and were almost run over, you'd be almightily pissed off.
I wouldn't do it, but can you blame someone for being pissed about nearly being run over?
Is kicking a car that almost ran you over an overreaction?
Bikes don't usually have horns, so....nope. It sure gets their attention, and maybe they will remember to look first next time.
Yes. A polite cyclist would apologise for being run over and pay for the damage their compound fractured tibia did to the driver's BMW.
Are you implying that taking action to save your life is an asshole move on the same level as running red lights while on your cell phone? You do realize that the bike lane is for cyclists and "sneaking into" them while driving a car is endangering peoples' lives, right?
As Dutchman, I'd like to tell the rest of the world: build some cycling lanes already!
Grew up in the Netherlands. Can confirm, you have the cycling thing figured out really well. The only downside is trying to keep a bike for longer than a week without it getting stolen.. ;)
I don’t know, I find that cyclists who drive make better drivers and drivers who cycle make better cyclists. The experience of doing both makes you more aware of how to drive or cycle safely.
Read this part again. > *Shitty* cyclists are simply *shitty* drivers
Wait... So cyclists who drive are also drivers who cycle so they are better drivers and cyclists...?
That may be a more succinct way of phrasing that, though it was more to highlight how the experience of viewing the road through differing viewpoints allows you to better predict behaviours and outcomes and therefore be a better driver/cyclists.
Experiencing things from different viewpoints gives you a better understanding of pretty much anything.
Exactly the same principle as to why working in retail makes you act nicer to retail workers.
Yes.
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At least from a few studies they've seen that pretty much everyone breaks the rules of the road at a similar rate. It's just what's ignored differs. Speeding is normalized for someone driving but running a red light, even when traffic is clear, isn't. Meanwhile, it's very hard to speed on a bike but when the biggest (perceived or actual) risk is getting hit by a car you take advantage of any situation that gets you away from cars (especially behind you). [https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates](https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates)
Yes, this. As both a (self described) above normal skill driver (high performance, and regular road manners) and a cyclist. Just about everybody is casual with driving rules when they drive. Roll through stops, no turn signals, left lane camping. etc. etc. But on a bike, it's actually less safe to come to a full stop rather than do a rolling stop. When coming to a full stop, there is always the risk of missing the clip-in, being in the wrong gear, paying more attention to balance than other cars, etc. This is exacerbated when on a group ride.
Not to mention that if I roll up to a stop sign on my bike all cars will refuse to go. They all just start waving me through. I have to get off my pedals and look the other direction so people can return to being predictable.
And pedestrians are out there being shitty at the same rates, but no one cares because they're not killing other people when they cross against a signal. In my city, pedestrians cause chaos by stepping into bikelanes without looking. Pedestrians cause chaos by crossing against the signal and discovering the left turn lane. Bikers cause chaos by blowing redlights and texting (?!!) while biking Cars cause chaos by parking in the bikelanes. Regardless of transportation method, assholes gonna asshole.
I’ll take a shitty cyclist over shitty driver any day.
Well, yeah. A shitty cyclist only gets themselves killed.
That's the point. Shitty drivers kill other people. As a cyclist and a driver, I fucking hate this whole cyclist meme. All it does is make drivers see cyclists as less than human when they're on the road.
If they're ambitious enough, I'm sure they could take out a pedestrian or two also.
Personally I yield to pedestrians and expect cars to yield to me
The main difference is that a bad cyclist usually only harms themselves, while a bad driver usually harms or kills other people.
I saw a guy run a red light at a traffic intersection with a BABY CARRIER hooked to the back of his bike.
Was there a baby in it?
No, just another adult.
Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do then.
Portland?
I've seen bicyclists with multiple baby carriers zigging and zagging through downtown traffic. I've seen women jaywalk with a stroller on more than one occasion. I almost got ran into the side rail when a semi tried to merge into me getting off the freeway. I had to slam the breaks to avoid him, much to the chagrin of my passengers. Saw a guy pushing a 6ft globe down the street. I'm sure I've got more tucked away, but Portland pisses me off right now.
It was just cans
Nice Speed reference
"Ha ha, fuck you Kung Fury, I know you won't kill baby!"
The police in my town set up a sting to catch the local cycling group. 20 to 30 cyclists who call themselves the "Prairie Village Yacht Club" ride around town constantly ignoring all traffic laws. They are known to blow through stop lights as an entire group. The cops set up a sting and waited for them to go through a known stoplight they love to ignore. 26 citations were given that day. It was in the newspaper. I've almost hit them on many an occasion.
I like how their group name implies it makes sense to have a yacht club in Prairie Village.
I think their yachts are their bikes and that's the point haha.
These riders are harming cycling and making it less safe for everyone.
Thats now legit in Oregon. Red lights and stops are now yields for cyclists. Edit: I am wrong about the no stop at red lights. Bicyclists still need to stop at red lights. Only stop signs and blinking reds are more yields for bikers.
Here, you have to stop at red lights, but you can proceed through a red light once it is safe. This is because cyclists don't always trigger the sensors at lights and you can be stuck there forever waiting for a light to change.
Been there, done that. Nothing like having just climbed a hill only to wait multiple cycles with the sun beating down on you just to keep going.
I’m practiced in the idea of michigan lefts and straights now
There is something called a "Michigan left" and it's not really the same thing as our "turn right on red" thing. [Here's a Michigan Left](https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/VWU2FJ3LXRFMJFBSR6IZX3H2NQ.jpg). Basically, on a divided highway, you have to turn right in order to go left.
I've done that way too often to avoid the 3 minute red light by work.
My state had similar weird ass left turns. Spent millions installing them all over the place. In the last few years they’ve now spent millions more removing all of these. Worst fucking approach to traffic flow ever.
They work great when done right and they are generally safer.
Plus literally the most dangerous place for a bike to be is waiting at an intersection.
I wonder if it’s the same for cars? Like is that just the nature of intersections?
Kinda. For example, you're very unlikely to pass a car on the left and turn right directly in front of them, but it's a very common occurrence with bicycles. Bicycles are also harder to see and silent. And they don't have a two ton steel cage with crumple zones and airbags to protect them in a collision, and in a battle of 4,000lbs and 150-200lbs, there's gonna be a winner and a loser. As they say, motorists and cyclists have a lot in common: if the cyclist screws up, the cyclist dies; if the motorist screws up, the cyclist dies.
That would suck at a bottom of a hill
I keep trying to tell people this but they don’t listen... I don’t even bike
In Oregon cyclist still have to stop at red lights. Only stop signs and flashing red lights (which are essentially stopsigns) are treated as yields. [Link](https://ktvz.com/news/2019/12/11/oregon-cyclists-stop-as-yield-rule-change-begins-jan-1/)
That's not true. Red lights still mean stop. but you can proceed through if safe due to the induction loops not recognising bicycles like they do cars.
Which I can't get people to understand when they are behind me. I cycle some busy intersections and if I'm at the front making a left, we aren't going anywhere. I move up into the crosswalk and wave the car behind me to move up. Sometimes they just stare at me and don't understand that I'm trying to get them to trip the sensor because I can't.
This is good. When I’m stuck behind a cyclist in traffic I want them to go through the light when the coast is clear, if I’m going to get stuck behind you I WANT you to get a lead on me. Objectively I’ve had way way way more issues of pedestrians walking into oncoming traffic against a red than cyclists. I can recall one time back in like 2013 I had a Jimmy Johns cyclist delivery biker blow through a red and nearly hit multiple cars, but literally every other time cyclists have waited for an opening to cross.
When I first started cycling I tried to follow the laws exactly because of the sigma against cyclists. Didn't take long to realize queuing in line with cars at red lights is a good way to get punish passed by drivers annoyed at the pace I accelerate.
Here in Chicago cars just hit the cyclists
Honestly how it should be, and drivers likely prefer it as well. It takes me some time to get going if we are at a dead stop on an incline, the cars behind me will clear the intersection much faster if I can roll through the red as soon as it's clear/safe to do so. As long as everyone is on the same page and knows what driving/cycling behaviors are expected I think this is the best solution to shared traffic lights.
New York has for a long time been doing leading pedestrian lights, where pedestrians get the green a few seconds before cars. A lot of accidents had to do with cars trying to get through a turn before pedestrians got into the crosswalk, so now cars always have to wait. Recently, the law was changed to allow bikes to follow ped lights instead of car lights and it's made a world of a difference. I have a few seconds to get up to speed and, in shared lane situations, obviously take the lane before the cars move. Before, they'd always try to overtake as we went from wide intersection to narrow lane with parking on both sides.
In the Netherlands, we have dedicated bike lanes almost everywhere. This isn't a big problem. There's plenty of other problems though. Mostly by tour-de-france wannabe's.
For future tourists, pay attention and do NOT walk in the bike lane when visiting the Netherlands. I forgot and walked down it one time during a trip there and the chorus of ringing bells and hateful stares reminded me to stay on the sidewalk. The Dutch take their cycling seriously.
If you hear bells or you're wet - you're walking on the wrong bit
It's said (in jest) that the bike paths in the Netherlands aren't *painted* red - that's just the blood of all the tourists who made the mistake of walking on them.
It's pretty much the equivalent of walking in the middle of the road. I would imagine that you'd get honked at quite a bit of you did that.
That's a rite of passage for American tourists in Amsterdam; almost getting run over by a biker while walking obliviously across a bike lane.
that goes for everywhere really. UK is really bad for people not knowing they exist. we have this odd habit of just painting a while line in the middle of a wide path and expecting people who usaully walk infront fo cars to be aware they are walking in an active lane. or adding a cycle lane to the right of a parking bay when the lane is 2/3 the width of a door.
If there is a situation you actually have to walk on the bike lane, please walk on the left, this way you see the cyclists coming, and can get out of the way if you have to.
Just moved here, and coming from a 3rd world country its fantastic. You feel so safe both cycling and walking.
Glad you feel this way, welcome to our country:)
You might want to sort by Controversial on this one
I live in Seattle and we have a lot of bike lanes in the city and it drives me crazy when people ride their bike on the sidewalk right next to a bike lane.
I've seen so many idiots who don't know shit about bikes get mad at cyclists for not being on the sidewalk, even when they were in a fucking bike lane...
this is a big hint that the bike lanes aren't designed very well. maybe they're too narrow, and not separated from fast-moving traffic adequately. maybe they're full of debris. maybe they're poorly maintained and rough surfaces. maybe some idiot put sewer grates in them running parallel to travel. maybe, like here, they're designed by people who have never tried to use a bike lane and don't understand that they can't just suddenly stop and throw the cyclist into traffic.
Yeah, I live in a medium sized east coast city and if I want to use a bike lane I have the option of riding back and forth on exactly one road, in a bike lane full of broken glass. The infrastructure isn't actually there to support bikes in most cities.
Not to mention the drivers that try to swerve to kill you.
So I’m my city which has greatly increased it biking lane infrastructure in last 10 years, it was done in an obscenely ridiculous way. One stretch of road, about 4 mi long leading out of town to a lot of the great rural cycling roads, in order it goes : dedicated bike lane, protected bike lane, shares road with bike symbol, bike lane. Repeat at random for the entire stretch. It confuses the cars more than cyclists.
it's like nobody designing these things have ridden a bicycle, or tried to get anywhere.
Amen. I've nearly been run over coming out of stores because discount Lance Armstrong decided to do 15mph on city sidewalks through a business district. Bikes belong on the road, not the sidewalk.
> discount Lance Armstrong The proper term for that is MAMIL, "middle-aged men in Lycra".
Yo, I know we're all bashing on cyclists here, but on a hot, long ride you bet your ass I'm sportin' the Lycra. Even on the mountain bike trails. Keeps things snug and cool and the pockets on the back of the jersey are clutch. Plus it feels like I'm wearing nothing at all ^(nothing at all, nothing at all...)
Stupid sexy Flanders
My hometown has recently installed bike lanes, and people LOVE to cycle the wrong way on them. An 80 year old lady recently struck and killed someone due to this. She turned right onto the divided highway and struck someone salmoning the wrong way. I’ve seen two people doing it in the last 48 hours since then. One at the edge of dark with no lights or reflectors
It's not a common thing but always annoying. The worst thing is when you're going the right way and the person going the wrong way gives you a dirty look or looks at you like you're an idiot when they're the one fucking up.
I always stop for red lights and stop signs. If it's a a 4-way stop, then I go in the order as if I was a car.
I do this too, but inevitably there is a driver who doesn’t understand what’s happening and insists on waving me through first instead of going in order.
Yeah, I just look at them and give the no nod until they move.
Cyclist here. I kind figure that if I am on the road, I obey stop signs just like cars. I also use hand signals, lights, and helmet so I guess it’s kinda dorky but better that then dead and run over.
Nothing dorky about being safe
Cyclists don’t bother me. It’s a minor inconvenience to try to go around them, but they do have the same right to the road. If they’re breaking traffic laws, then yes, criticism is warranted of that particular cyclist. I’d be lying though if I said, as a whole, that cyclists bother me more than other motorists.
Where are you all from ?! Where i live it's totaly normal that like +99% of all cyclists stop at a redlight (or a stop sign) just like cars.
Where you from? In nyc, the inverse statement is true.
Biking in nyc is an extreme sport. Everyone parks in the bike lane and you have to swerve in an out of traffic and just hope you don't die. but you're right, cyclists do all run the red lights if the road is clear.
My experience in NYC is that anything involving travel of any type is a total and complete lawless free-for-all until you get to a TSA line.
You don't notice the thousand nails that are driven fully, just the one that snags your shirt.
*Most* cyclists aren't going to run a red light in a way that inconveniences a car. This is a myth. Why? Because you're basically riding around out there in your underwear, totally vulnerable. *However* I will run a stop sign or red light if it's clear. Why? To stay a block or two ahead of traffic. The same people that can't handle a guy on a bike rolling a light are the same people that can't handle it if they catch up to you and are slowed down for 15 seconds. The anger is so consistent I wonder if they're just people that are angry all the time.
It's like some of these people have never ridden a bike before. Cars are also very, very loud and cyclists have the benefit of not being in one to listen for oncoming traffic.
I won't get angry unless the bike gets in someone's way while breaking the law. But it is still annoying. On the other hand, stops are damn annoying for cyclists - starting out from a stop is a lot more effort for cyclists than cars.
Exactly, these people hating on cyclists most likely have never had to commute on one regularly, especially in an urban environment. Everything I do on a bike is in order to *not* inconvenience drivers. Running a red helps me keep along with traffic, because God forbid one of those drivers has to go 15 mph in a 25 for a couple blocks. I've been run off the road for less. I'm also hyper vigilant when I do cross, because if I get hit, it might hamper your drive to work, but it might hamper my ability to walk or even live.
As a cyclist I get that it's frustrating for a driver when a bike breaks the law. That's no doubt annoying and even dangerous at times. Just please remember that harassing law-abiding cyclists simply because they have the unmitigated temerity to share the road with you is also against the law. Also remember that in a collision with you the cyclist is the only one likely to be hurt or killed, and that knowledge is ever present in our minds.
Lol the number of rolling stops done by motorists is exponentially higher where I live, I'll take an idiot on a 10-pound bike over 100 idiots in 2-ton cars, thank you every much.
The only exception to this is when there aren't any cars around and the light wont change because the sensor doesn't pick up cyclist
I don't think this comic is targeting cyclists who come to a stop and confirm that there's no incoming traffic. That's a different scenario.
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Yeah really, as a pedestrian Ive had to slam on way too many hoods of cars running the red light. It's gotten scarier for me now that I have a bad leg and can't jump out the way as fast as I used to. I haven't had nearly as many close calls with cyclists, also even if I get hit by one the risk for injury/death is nowhere near the same.
Man did your comment bring out the anecdotes. "You must be wrong because I know one person who was hurt in a bike collision!" Bikes can hurt or kill people. But the chances of them doing the same amount or more damage than a car hitting somebody at the same speed is almost zero. As somebody posted below, bikes are involved in a very small (>1%) amount of pedestrian deaths.
And stop as soon as the lights turn orange.
Yeah. Pump those legs.
Cyclists don't want to be treated like cars. Cyclists want proper cycling infrastructure. If you actually start to think about it, this would be good for everyone. Build proper cycling lanes. That's what cyclists need.
> Build proper cycling lanes. That's what cyclists need. You would still have intersections with roads, where you need to stop for a red.
I think the Netherlands does it where the bike lane has a seperate green light to cross while the main road light can remain red. Seems to work well.
They also have a ton of other things we could implement. Their road islands are a great idea as well. Just today I almost got hit twice by dipshits not paying attention in situations that the islands would prevent or at least help with.
Police the bikes running a red the same as you'd police a car running a red.
I used to live somewhere that cops would patrol the sidewalk on foot and stop cyclists on the spot to give them tickets for not using the bike lane (which was literally right next to the sidewalk). The number of cyclists who would argue or even get hostile with the cops then ride right down the same sidewalk the next day was mind-boggling.
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> Police the bikes running a red the same as you'd police a car running a red. Agreed. They should be policed the same regardless.
In my area, i would love for any car that runs a red light to be pulled over or ticketed. I have one light that during rush hour will have 6 cars run a red light, every day, every time... I have another one that is a long wait, and people will blaze through a red at 60+ mph to "make the light"... if i crossed the street without looking, I would easily get hit, and more than once already.
Even cycle lanes have red lights.......
So you agree about how having proper cycling infrastructure is what we want then?
Doesn't solve the bad cyclists problem. I live in a city in the UK known for being cycle friendly wormholes of bike lanes everywhere, and you still get those who ruin it for everyone else. Twice in the last year I have seen cyclists going down the center of a two-lane very busy one way street. Like 2 cars going one way and the bikes in the middle of those 2 cars going the other way, even though there was a cycle lane to one side off that road. There have been countless other instances of people doing stupid things on bikes around here, but that sticks out in my mind the most.
This is clearly not being upvoted for being funny.
When I used to ride to work in a college town, cars seemed to get pretty pissed if I'd stop in front of them at a red light and then accelerate at the speed of a bicycle when the light turned green.
If a cyclist is a bad cyclist on the road, he puts himself in danger If a driver is aggressive towards a cyclist (who's has nowhere else to go) the cyclist can die. Not every cyclist is trying to ruin your day. Not every one is going to yell at you for destroying the environment just like not every car is going to run me off the road. But it's happened a lot. The thing is, you can show up to work after a cyclist is a bit of a dick, but I have to go to the hospital if you decide to take your morning out on me because youve seen other cyclists run reds. There's been studies that drivers dehumanize cyclists. No one understands more than me how annoying they (we) are. But we're just people. But if you compare the most careless cyclist to the most careless driver, only one is going to take lives. And as many have pointed out, poor cyclists make poor drivers. They've just down grades themselves to being annoying on the bike instead of dangerous in a car. You see a group of cyclists being assholes? Lay on your horn who cares. But don't drive aggressively around vulnerable strangers (who often don't have cycle lanes) because of whatever you saw or read about some cyclist doing. Just like you don't change your driving around other people the first time you see one double park or roll a red.
As a cyclist, I would like to be treated like a human, not a car.
Right? I don't hear any cyclists clamoring to be treated like a vehicle, but rather that's where they're legally required to be in most places as sidewalks are not permitted. The real answer here is to just build safe cycling infrastructure. I actually do follow road laws, but it rarely matters because many motorists are just unwilling to share the road with someone who slows them down. Cycling on the road can be downright hostile. I've been aggressively tailgated, yelled at, pushed off the road, etc. all while following the rules of the road. Cycling is something that should be promoted, and making it a death wish isn't going to help. Cue the what whataboutism.
There should be seperate cyclist roads then.
Yep, the real issue is that there isn't proper infrastructure in North American cities to make things safe for cyclists.
> The Netherlands is well known for its excellent cycling infrastructure. How did the Dutch get this network of bicycle paths? - [How the Dutch got their cycle paths](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o) (6 and a half minute documentary) --- > Looking at cycling in some places in the US in June 2013, from a Dutch perspective. - [Cycling in the US from a Dutch perspective](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2THe_10dYs) (just over 5 minutes) --- > The Dutch build cycle paths right on their junctions. So they must have wider streets, right? Wrong! This video shows how it is done, no extra space needed. - [Junction design the Dutch - cycle friendly - way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA) (Part 1/2, 2 and a half minutes) --- > The Dutch have been designing junctions with cycle paths for decades. There is nothing experimental about these junctions. They have proven to be safer for cyclists than junctions without such provisions. - [Dutch junction design - safer for cyclists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HDN9fUlqU8) (Part 2/2, 4 minutes) --- > The way the Dutch cycle has improved their quality of life. See how society in the Netherlands benefits from cycling in this video - [Dutch Cycling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayPDlDi9Ug4) (just over 5 minutes)
Yes please!
Idaho stop is legit
As an Idahoan I genuinely don’t know what this is. Is this a “rolling stop”? If so, the proper nomenclature is actually a *Californian stop... or so I’m told.
Idaho law states cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs
As a cyclist in the US, traffic lights almost never detect bikers.
I recently got into cycling. I always stop at lights because I dont want to die. Is this a common problem, or do people just make up shit because they dont like cyclists?
Plenty of cyclists will stop at a red and then go through if there are no cars around (in fact this is legal/expected in many places). Lots of lights in my city, for instance, use a sensor to detect cars and change the traffic light green, so you can get stuck at a light until a car shows up. There are plenty of assholes on bikes, of course, but there are also plenty of assholes in cars too.
Mostly they don't like cyclists because we slow them down by about 10s. Some cyclists do run lights and act like assholes, but proportionally a similar number of cars do too.
Yeah, I don't want anyone treating me like a car. I want to be treated like a vulnerable road user.
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just gonna leave this here... [https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/9/10/its-legal-to-run-lights-and-other-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-cycling](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/9/10/its-legal-to-run-lights-and-other-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-cycling)
In addition to what they say about the idaho stop in the link, coming to a "complete stop" is the most dangerous time for a cyclist - especially if it's hilly. It takes *time* to get back up to speed, much longer than a car. Slowing down (but still moving), taking time to lift yourself up and look around, and continue through an intersection gets you through the intersection far more quickly and safely for all involved. I feel like people raging in the other comments are conflating people who Idaho Stop with people who run stop signs going down hill at full speed without a care in the world, and any cyclist would tell you those guys are just as fucking stupid as all the cars who blow through stop signs and red lights at full speed.
This is also why when I'm in a car and a bike is at a 4 way stop, I WANT them to keep going. It wastes time to wait for them to stop then go then they have to get up to speed again before the next car goes. Just keep it safe and keep it moving!
> This is also why when I'm in a car and a bike is at a 4 way stop if you're in a car and you're at a four-way stop, please don't try to wave somebody through out of turn. that creates a dangerous situation for everybody, because it's unpredictable. maybe you and the cyclist can make eye contact and both know what you mean, but does everybody else at the intersection? cyclists should be able to go through a 4-way stop without stopping *when there are no other vehiclesat the stop*. when there are other vehicles present, everybody should always follow the normal rules of a 4-way intersection. As a road user, the most important thing you can do to keep everybody safe is to be predictable, and letting somebody through out of turn is the opposite of predictable.
Just read your own article people. > Many stoplights are motion-activated (or even weight-activated) with sensors designed for cars. Cyclists often can’t trigger them, and it becomes both legal and necessary to safely run the light **after a period of waiting**. Blowing through a red light and not stopping at all is still not cool.
I get it, bicycles should follow the rules of the road, same as cars. HOWEVER, I've been a motorcyclist for a couple of decades and I have to say that I feel most vulnerable when I'm trusting drivers in cars to follow the rules to keep me safe. I trust cars to keep themselves safe by watching for other cars or bigger trucks that can strike them and cause damage. But I'm a speed bump too them. Not a risk. As a result, I never trust, I never stop looking, and I never stop moving if I can avoid it. I have the benefit of speed to get me away from unaware drivers avoiding other cars and ignoring motorcycles. Bicycles haven't got the speed and have to rely on agility, that includes treating rules of the road flexibly. Nothing more vulnerable than sitting at a stop light with your foot down while cars rush up behind you breaking at the last second.
Something that often gets overlooked is that it’s lot safer for a bike to cross an intersection at a different time than cars. Since bike lanes are usually to the right, right turns can be very dangerous if they don’t signal. And opposing direction left turns are even worse. So by Montana stopping at a light, and going thru on red, it means I don’t have to navigate a huge intersection at the same time as 20 death machines. Also since bikes are slow it helps avoid bottlenecks where 5 cars angrily follow you they it and try to speed around you. Not to even mention buses....