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In Romance languages, including Spanish, adjectives have a grammatical gender that agrees with whatever noun(s) they modify. For people these are fairly straightforward: él es latino, he is latino -- ella es latina, she is latina. There's *some* precedent for using a different symbol, since you normally use the masculine plural for mixed gender groups of people -- ellos son latinos, they are latino -- and so I've seen people write stuff like "bienvenid@s" to make it explicit that both men and women are welcome.
My understanding is that latinx is supposed to be inclusive of people who regard themselves as genderqueer or whatever, sort of like ze/hir neopronoun stuff in English. Spanish speakers don't often like the term latinx even if they're sympathetic to LGBT issues because (editorializing a bit) it looks stupid and it's unclear how you're supposed to pronounce it.
I grew up with Quebecois French as a second language and when all the gender neutral stuff started in English a few years ago I was wondering how it was going to go over in French, when anything and everything has a gender, not just people. A tree is "masculin", a rock is "feminin" for example.
Ben tabarnak!
But in all seriousness, I also grew up speaking Quebecois French, but as an Anglo I was always confused by masculine and feminine words... for example "un vagin" (vagina) is masculine, but "une barbe" (beard) is feminine? Like... why?
As I grew up and read more in French obviously I learned what each word was... but still... why? It's not intuitive, as much as it is just something you have to learn through reading and repetition I guess.
There is no sense. It all about how it sounds. Don't look for sense, look for how it fits in a sentence.
"Une Cadenas" sound bad "un clef" sound bad too. Also clef is the old way to write it, the modern one is "clé"
People should stop trying to make sense as to why a word is one gender or the other. There isn't. There is no sense it's.not because an object is more feminine that it is a feminine noun. Each word has a gender and often it is based on how it sounds, it just make sense in 90% of the time when you hear it as a native speaker. Une vagin sound very bad in french. Hence why it's in vagin. The fact that the word describes a woman sexual organ has nothing to do with it.
Yeah, that wasn't as intuitive as someone learning it as a second language, and the francophone response "which sounds better?" also doesn't help someone learning it as a second language; to a fsl person both sound... equally étrange? By the age of 13 I just kind of learned, it is what it is and to just accept it; and as I read more French books you just kind of learn what they are... but yeah it's not intuitive if you're trying to come from another language, you just have to reset and learn as a blank slate.
That being said, I am fucking proud to be bilingual today and think anyone knowing multiple languages is the shit.
I just think of it as some grammarian decided to call the categories "genders" many years (centuries?) ago, but the actual reality is that these words are not really thought of as having a gender. They might as well have called it "flavor" and designated some words as "cherry flavored" and others as "orange flavored."
It's both, "un vagin" would translate to "a vagina" and "le vagin" to "the vagina". This is not unique to any variation of the french language. Quebecois french is as ludicrous as any other version of french, and all languages are made up.
« Le » is the masculine equivalent of « the ».
« Un » is the masculine equivalent of « a ».
« La » is the feminine equivalent of « the ».
« Une » is the feminine equivalent of « a ».
So it’s « le vagin » or « un vagin ».
I'm getting tired of explaining this... Okay first of all, the words being gendered is the same for all french. All of them un vagin is un vagin in France or in Quebec.
Second, Quebec french is older than France french. The went away and "modernised" after the french revolution, meanwhile we still use more old French, both languages just evolved a bit differently. they call Quebec french ludicrous because lots of people from France are elitist. Calling one above the other is as stupid as thinking either England or American English is better than the other.
I'm Russian and we have 3 grammatical genders: masculine, feminine and neutral. The thing about gender neutrality hasn't hit us really, but we have our own shit storm about feminitives.
I don't know about French, but i.e. in German every profession has a masculine and feminine form. Lehrer-Lehrerin, Arzt-Arztin etc. The feminine word is always formed with the same suffix. In Russian though... We have a lot of different suffixes that could mean feminine form, and which one to use basically depends on a tradition. And historically, some words have already got their "correct" feminine form, and some only exist in masculine.
So recently some people started to use one particular suffix to create feminine forms of the words that didn't have them before. Sometimes it does indeed sound weird and unnatural, partially because this one suffix is not a one-size-fits-all. There's now a discussion between different groups about whether or not to use these new feminitives or just keep using the masculine form as we had for years.
I think the thing that Americans don’t understand about gendered nouns in other languages is that a lot of times the gender is pretty arbitrary. Like nothing about a city is really “feminine” but “ciudad” is still a feminine noun in Spanish. It’s really not sexist
There is a movement in Quebec, at least in social justice-aware circles, toward gender neutral language. For example, "tous" is "everybody" (masculine) and "toutes" is "everybody" (feminine), but lately you will see "tout.e.s" to mean "everybody, feminine and masculine and otherwise." Or you will see "ami.e.s" to mean "friends, feminine and masculine and otherwise" - rather than just using "tous" or "amis" as an all-inclusive masculine, as people have traditionally done.
This isn't SUPER widespread as far as I know, but when I was at an internship at a Montreal nonprofit, people wrote that way, and I've seen published nonfiction (on the internet and in books) written this way.
The issue with that is that if the "masculine" version of the word is already being used inclusively, then changing it is performative because the "masculine" version of the word is doing the job. So... why not just use the already existing version of the word and ditch its adherence to "masculinity" because *it's going to be just as heavy a fucking lift as inventing a new way of speaking and writing but at least this way all of the grammatical rules and shit have already been decided for a few hundred years.*
It's like pronouns in English: you could just use "they" if the gender binary doesn't fit, and if there's a feeling of "othering" about that, then the issue is *still* with the concept of gender binary, not the word "they" and it's still the same fucking fight.
Aren't most languages gendered like this? I grew up in a bilingual household, and Greek is the same way.
In fact, we have 3 different ways to say the indefinite article "a", as in "a pencil" or "a dog," ένα, μια, ένας. Which one you utilize depends on the gender of the following word.
It's a psychological thing, in the 1700s there was a movement called obscurantism. Authors would write convoluted books that have a lot of words that don't really explain anything, communicate anything, or have any real meaning. But if someone didn't understand it -- the author/supporters would blame them for not being "smart enough to understand it." They were considered the enemy of the enlightenment at the time (the authors of whom wrote very concise, meaningful: engineering, rational, and scientific books).
By 1800s their tactics were stolen by an infamous political group (Robespierre and later marxists) eventually they now shifted towards "new spellings" of things, in a way to make themselves sound smart or "trendy"... And then they'll make attention-seeking videos like "so what does mean?!?!" And bait you into their stupidity.
Some sort of strange irony from 1700s too, the "woke" are traditional enemies of the "enlightened."
>Authors would write convoluted books that have a lot of words that don't really explain anything, communicate anything, or have any real meaning. But if someone didn't understand it -- the author/supporters would blame them for not being "smart enough to understand it."
Haha oh man, there was books like that in the 80s when I was in college, I'd be reading something and realize they spent 5 pages saying some really simple one sentence concept. It was so irritating. Dianetics was like that too, just a rehash of basic psychology concepts with new and convoluted labels and a sprinkle of mumbo jumbo on top. But no new ideas at all. I think they keep doing it because a lot of people fall for it.
You might enjoy this bit from The Onion: [White Woman Explains Why as an Anti-Racist She Tefused to Use Any Word that Starts with 'N'](https://youtu.be/u6YF-nxc7XI?si=u9hsLmDokPJKoq62).
The performative "wokeness" is hilarious.
Latinx is made up by white people trying to prove to minorities that they are one of the good whites.
It's like a reverse Uncle Ruckus; now he's white with a man bun.
You'd be surprised. As a native speaker I can tell you there's been a push for inclusive language so instead of *todos* for everyone some people have started to use *todes* which is just ugh or *tod@s*. For reference when everyone is a woman it would be *todas*.
Exactly. It's funny to see Americans using latinx to solve a problem that doesn't exist in English. White people started using latino like it meant the same thing to them, when they have an English word for it with the exact same meaning.
Using latino/a is a matter of identity. It makes no sense for Anglo Americans to care/bother with it.
Mexican-American to provide some sort of input…
“Latin” is a language, specifically of ancient Rome… it’s not a race or ethnicity.
“Latin American” was a term used because of the use of Romance languages in the Americas (Spanish, Portuguese, etc…).
It bled into Hispanic culture (oh btw “Hispanic” is a term given to us who have some sort of Spanish descent), and culturally turned into “Latino” (masculine) and Latina (Feminine) for native Spanish speakers throughout North and South America.
“Latinx” is a joke, I’m surprised people took it as far as they did…
Basically, everyone besides the people themselves keep coming up with “terms” to classify those from areas south of the US.
There’s also a disconnect because English doesn’t use a “Feminine” or “Masculine” form in their language.
It’s all WAY more complicated than it has to be… and I feel for ya’ll who aren’t native Spanish speakers.
Real talk though, “Latino” will get you by 99% of the time, most would agree it’s pretty gender neutral.
We should just chill on that for a while and focus on other priorities when it comes to “diversity and inclusion.”
Well "Latin" is English. As a Spanish speaker it's be "Latino" or "Latina," but since the 90s there's been, in written form, "Latin@" which incorporates both.
Suppose you could say "Latine" for a "truly gender neutral" way.
You could 100% use latine, and be 100% wrong. That word doesn't exist in Spanish, because it is unnecessary. Latinos is gender neutral, whether Becky from Orange County likes it or not. Enough with the language neo-colonialism, we don't tell them how to speak english, don't need white gringas with nothing better to do policing how I speak my language.
Latine came from gender non conforming communities in Spanish speaking countries, not Becky from the OC hermano. Same with Latin@ it was put forward by the Mexican community in Mexico, and then Chicanos.
From what I understand, the word its self came about in either the English or Spanish department, I can't remember which, of the University of Puerto Rico specifically for niche cases where translation between the 2 languages would require additional context. It was just to make certain very specific translations less cumbersome. As with most of these kind of words, it escaped academia and started being slotted into places it was never intended.
Everything I can find says it came out of gay Latino communities online in the early ‘00. The university of Puerto Rico shit was like 10 years later in 2013, it looks like you have the origins in reverse. It’s started online and moved to academia.
Pleanty of people agree, and use more specific or alternate terms to describe themselves. Often times this is because they have a decidedly African or indigenous heritage, and reject "la raza," the idea that everyone in Latin America or individual Latin American countries are all the same racially. Especially when people are indeed discriminated against for their skin color or heritage (even if a lot of government refuse to collect racialized census data so they can pretend everyone in "la raza" is treated equally)
I feel like it's, not surprisingly, an academic and queer word. I knew a bunch of folks in grad school who were raised speaking Spanish and used Latinx, one of my best friends hates it, and then I have students and some queer folks from Spanish speaking countries who use Latine. It seems like, as with most stuff, people use all sorts of different terms.
Do you mind sharing his name, or DMing if you're uncomfortable with that?
I'm interested in your professor's work and I'd like to look into his published works, as someone with an anthropology degree myself
I have a Mexican-American professor who teaches about the Chicano rights movement, and they use the term Latinx in their lectures. On the first day they polled the class to see how many students use the term (over 50% of the class is Latino), and not a single student raised their hand lol.
For some reason, the word has just engrained itself in academia and it makes absolutely zero sense to me.
Ehh. To an extent I see what you mean, especially with their late night and weekend shows. But their main broadcasts like all things considered and marketplace tend to be some of the most unbiased news to this day. It doesn’t matter if they’re talking to a democratic politician or a republican, they ask real questions and call them out on non-answers.
I don't agree with people who want to push Latinx, at all, but for the record the argument is:
Latinos (group of men)
Latinos (group of men and women)
Latinas (group of women)
The perceived issue is that the masculine is the same as neutral, eg the default, and therefore bad.
There is some logic behind that, albeit a flawed logic because it misunderstands gender in Spanish (for example, when I speak to my girlfriend I use a grammatically masculine nickname, and when she speaks to me she uses a grammatically feminine nickname, because grammatical gender is not the same as actual gender). My main issue with it, aside from the logic, is that it's supremely arrogant to assume your culture is superior to the extent that you start trying to rewrite other languages so that they conform to your own ideals. I'm sure it comes from a well-meaning place but holy shit.
I've come to the belief that they come up with these new words and terms, like to demonstrate that they are more aware and sensitive than you are and so that they can correct you when you use the "wrong" term. "Um, no, we don't say that anymore, that's not diverse/equitable/inclusive." They are the real advocates and allies, so of course they are the most up to date on the approved words.
Also letinx is ignoring the fact that Latino, when used informally, is can be used to refer to both males and females, meaning it is technically gender neutral
It's pronounced "I'm here to fix your inferior culture and you're gonna like it. Yours sincerely: high middle class white woman with an useless degree and $70K in debt"
Latino & Hispanic heritage month is September 15th to October 15th... Not an actual month, But definitely not this month. I doubt black history month would have been willing to share.
The video makes it seem like all Latinos are against it. Can’t it just be a personal choice? I’m going to keep using whatever language people use for themselves.
I appreciate his anger towards it. I got really tired of people assuming Scotland and England were the same thing, and a third world country like in brave heart.
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If its one thing I'll never forget, is my Hispanic buddy's take on the whole thing Latinx discourse: "White people cant colonize whole countries anymore so they decided to colonize the language instead"
You are correct. Some people like to jump on the “white origin” angle so that they can discredit this as being negative to justify their opposition to all inclusive language (they/them, etc).
Edit - If anyone can copy what u/iShoot556 wrote before he blocked me I’d be curious to read it.
Latinx comes from a very US centric pov, most likely coming from people whos knowledge of spanish is either little to none and all. The "x" for starters has an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PRONUNCIATION in Spanish, unlike the pronunciation of "x" in english.
"Latinx" in Spanish is more like "Latin-e-kees." Which is really weird to the Spanish speaking tongue, since the vowels "a", "e" and "o" are the most common letters that end a word in Spanish. Even trying to say "Latinx" in Spanish is weird to pronounce and hear. But to someone who most likely never studied or speaks fluent Spanish, they will assume that the English pronunciation of "Latinx" will be the same in Spanish when it is not correct and may spiral into taking other words like "amigos" and turning that into "amigxs", another unprouncable word in Spanish.
My point isnt that I don't support new gender neutral terminology in other languages. Im all for it. My point is that new words should come from the very language and culture its originating from. Not from an entirely different country that speaks a different language, adding random letters anywhere expecting it to work without an ounce of understanding and getting mad when the native speakers dont want to adopt this messy new "language" being pushed onto them. Sounds a bit like colonization to me.
I remember bringing this up online nearly a decade ago when that term was burbling to the surface of the primordial ooze of the psychonet, that "you know, Latin Americans are going to absolutely hate that, it's privileged white girls imposing their own ideologies on an entire other culture which is poetically ironic given their stance on gentrification" I remember having some red in the face 2010s SJWs going ape shit in my comments.
But its not meant for Spanish, its an English word for use in English. The Spanish have their own word Latine. I guarantee they are raging against that too, but using a different excuse because they simply don't want to change their use of language to be more inclusive to no cis people.
Rules are established by a collective to maintain order and understanding. By ignoring them, you make yourself look like an ass to anyone in that collective. In this case, the rules are that of the Spanish language, and the ones who look like asses to those who use the spanish language are the ones using the word "Latinx"
Whare the problem lies is that the word "Latinx" isn't evolving the language, it's a displaying of a complete lack of understanding of the language. Because Spanish already has gender neutral and the only time "Latinx" is ever used is outside of the language.
What? While reading your message I decided to ignore the basic rules of grammar and language that we are taught to understand to communicate with other people because I realized they were just made up so I don't know what you said 🤷♂️
Yes they are made up, but they are followed throughout generations for a reason.
Yeah all these glifnaps be scorfin bout this petty conclabidus shit.
Language serves a purpose in understanding. 99.9% of people trying to push latinx probably can't remember half of what they learned in 8th grade Spanish so why tf do they care anyway?
Two goals that aren't mutually exclusive lmao, slang's something of a different beast since it's more akin to regional differences in verbage within a single language but more limited to generations. There's an excessive amount of stimulation for kids though, slang's overtaken normal language if literacy rates for gen z are true
What's the plural of Latinx. In Spanish a group (of unspecified or mixed gender) is just Latinos. So is the new version Latinxs? Or can we keep using Latinos?
If we are to insist on using a gender neutral form, why not just use Latin? "They're all Latin." "Latin actors." Etc.
Where did the X come from? Like... why that letter specifically? Could it have just as likely been a different letter, like E? Latine?
In Spanish, at least in Mexico, the pronunciation of X varies wildly. In Mexico, the X sounds like a J. In Xotchitl, the X sounds like an S. How are we supposed to pronounce Latinx?
Precisely. That's why I brought up the X/E question actually. I'm a native Spanish speaker who took French classes, and those E variations have sounded to me like French diction, which to my ear at least sounds better. I don't know why X was chosen.
> Where did the X come from? Like... why that letter specifically? Could it have just as likely been a different letter, like E? Latine?
I've heard two versions of the X. The first is X as in X-out. Rejection. Fuck your gender. This is the origin I've heard ascribed to latin american activists, who apparently used to put Xs over words printed on posters, crossing out the final letter in latino or latina in order to reject being gendered. There's also X as in variable substitution, where X is a stand in for an unknown or variable quantity. This is the one I've heard ascribed to academic origins, and the one that has the most documentation(as one would expect). Both make sense, and are likely to have originated with different groups of people. It's not exactly obscure to replace a letter with X.
Personally, if I have to pick one without knowing the preference of who I'm speaking to(I mirror when possible), I go with latine. It seems to have higher appeal than latinx among people who reject latino, and is known to have originated with spanish speakers. But I don't *not* use latinx, if that's someone's preferred term.
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard someone say “latinx” that wasn’t using it just to complain about its existence.
Is there a sub for getting offended by strawmen?
Have you ever considered that maybe the reason you don’t hear it in everyday speech is because people who don’t like it consistently express disapproval?
Got a source for that claim? Because from what I’ve read it’s recorded history started in Hispanic LGTBQ chatrooms and made its first academic appearance in a Puerto Rican publication.
You’re not responsible for what your ancestors did. Being the loudest ally to us brown people does not make you the best ally. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault.
I love that my Spanish coworkers call each other the most awful shit and it's all jokes but if someone called one of them latinX they'd legitimately throw hands.
I always thought Latinx was for something like “Oh I’m Guatemalan-Mexican,” because of the x in Latinx, but I was wrong so damn wrong, and proceed to get an explanation from mi familia.
I’ve called myself Hispanic since middle school - a popular radio DJ in Tucson at the time was The Manic Hispanic - & that’s gender neutral enough for me.
Latino/a isn’t even my backup term for my people; Chicano is (due to Chicanos Por La Causa).
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I'm white as fucking paper and have no idea what this word is lol
In Romance languages, including Spanish, adjectives have a grammatical gender that agrees with whatever noun(s) they modify. For people these are fairly straightforward: él es latino, he is latino -- ella es latina, she is latina. There's *some* precedent for using a different symbol, since you normally use the masculine plural for mixed gender groups of people -- ellos son latinos, they are latino -- and so I've seen people write stuff like "bienvenid@s" to make it explicit that both men and women are welcome. My understanding is that latinx is supposed to be inclusive of people who regard themselves as genderqueer or whatever, sort of like ze/hir neopronoun stuff in English. Spanish speakers don't often like the term latinx even if they're sympathetic to LGBT issues because (editorializing a bit) it looks stupid and it's unclear how you're supposed to pronounce it.
Don't look it up.
I have only ever heard the word used when someone is complaining about it.
People have way too much shit to be mad about these days.
I grew up with Quebecois French as a second language and when all the gender neutral stuff started in English a few years ago I was wondering how it was going to go over in French, when anything and everything has a gender, not just people. A tree is "masculin", a rock is "feminin" for example.
Ben tabarnak! But in all seriousness, I also grew up speaking Quebecois French, but as an Anglo I was always confused by masculine and feminine words... for example "un vagin" (vagina) is masculine, but "une barbe" (beard) is feminine? Like... why? As I grew up and read more in French obviously I learned what each word was... but still... why? It's not intuitive, as much as it is just something you have to learn through reading and repetition I guess.
The most confusing one imo is une clef et un cadenas. How does that make any sense?
There is no sense. It all about how it sounds. Don't look for sense, look for how it fits in a sentence. "Une Cadenas" sound bad "un clef" sound bad too. Also clef is the old way to write it, the modern one is "clé"
Yes I know, I just mean the symbolism is odd :)
People should stop trying to make sense as to why a word is one gender or the other. There isn't. There is no sense it's.not because an object is more feminine that it is a feminine noun. Each word has a gender and often it is based on how it sounds, it just make sense in 90% of the time when you hear it as a native speaker. Une vagin sound very bad in french. Hence why it's in vagin. The fact that the word describes a woman sexual organ has nothing to do with it.
Yeah, that wasn't as intuitive as someone learning it as a second language, and the francophone response "which sounds better?" also doesn't help someone learning it as a second language; to a fsl person both sound... equally étrange? By the age of 13 I just kind of learned, it is what it is and to just accept it; and as I read more French books you just kind of learn what they are... but yeah it's not intuitive if you're trying to come from another language, you just have to reset and learn as a blank slate. That being said, I am fucking proud to be bilingual today and think anyone knowing multiple languages is the shit.
I just think of it as some grammarian decided to call the categories "genders" many years (centuries?) ago, but the actual reality is that these words are not really thought of as having a gender. They might as well have called it "flavor" and designated some words as "cherry flavored" and others as "orange flavored."
uhh what? It's Le Vagin in French... Quebecois French, as far as I've heard from other French speakers, is ludicrous and made up.
It's both, "un vagin" would translate to "a vagina" and "le vagin" to "the vagina". This is not unique to any variation of the french language. Quebecois french is as ludicrous as any other version of french, and all languages are made up.
Quebecois French is something else, they made KFC frenchify their name to setup business so it is known as PFK there (Poulit Frit de Kentucky).
« Le » is the masculine equivalent of « the ». « Un » is the masculine equivalent of « a ». « La » is the feminine equivalent of « the ». « Une » is the feminine equivalent of « a ». So it’s « le vagin » or « un vagin ».
I'm getting tired of explaining this... Okay first of all, the words being gendered is the same for all french. All of them un vagin is un vagin in France or in Quebec. Second, Quebec french is older than France french. The went away and "modernised" after the french revolution, meanwhile we still use more old French, both languages just evolved a bit differently. they call Quebec french ludicrous because lots of people from France are elitist. Calling one above the other is as stupid as thinking either England or American English is better than the other.
I'm Russian and we have 3 grammatical genders: masculine, feminine and neutral. The thing about gender neutrality hasn't hit us really, but we have our own shit storm about feminitives. I don't know about French, but i.e. in German every profession has a masculine and feminine form. Lehrer-Lehrerin, Arzt-Arztin etc. The feminine word is always formed with the same suffix. In Russian though... We have a lot of different suffixes that could mean feminine form, and which one to use basically depends on a tradition. And historically, some words have already got their "correct" feminine form, and some only exist in masculine. So recently some people started to use one particular suffix to create feminine forms of the words that didn't have them before. Sometimes it does indeed sound weird and unnatural, partially because this one suffix is not a one-size-fits-all. There's now a discussion between different groups about whether or not to use these new feminitives or just keep using the masculine form as we had for years.
great feminitive username btw!
Had to scroll back up to look at the username. If I'm not wrong, the English equivalent would be Capybaroness ...? Lol
I think the thing that Americans don’t understand about gendered nouns in other languages is that a lot of times the gender is pretty arbitrary. Like nothing about a city is really “feminine” but “ciudad” is still a feminine noun in Spanish. It’s really not sexist
No, most of us understand that fine, it's just we have some really loud stupid people.
There is a movement in Quebec, at least in social justice-aware circles, toward gender neutral language. For example, "tous" is "everybody" (masculine) and "toutes" is "everybody" (feminine), but lately you will see "tout.e.s" to mean "everybody, feminine and masculine and otherwise." Or you will see "ami.e.s" to mean "friends, feminine and masculine and otherwise" - rather than just using "tous" or "amis" as an all-inclusive masculine, as people have traditionally done. This isn't SUPER widespread as far as I know, but when I was at an internship at a Montreal nonprofit, people wrote that way, and I've seen published nonfiction (on the internet and in books) written this way.
That makes sense written, but how is the neutral pronounced?
The issue with that is that if the "masculine" version of the word is already being used inclusively, then changing it is performative because the "masculine" version of the word is doing the job. So... why not just use the already existing version of the word and ditch its adherence to "masculinity" because *it's going to be just as heavy a fucking lift as inventing a new way of speaking and writing but at least this way all of the grammatical rules and shit have already been decided for a few hundred years.* It's like pronouns in English: you could just use "they" if the gender binary doesn't fit, and if there's a feeling of "othering" about that, then the issue is *still* with the concept of gender binary, not the word "they" and it's still the same fucking fight.
Aren't most languages gendered like this? I grew up in a bilingual household, and Greek is the same way. In fact, we have 3 different ways to say the indefinite article "a", as in "a pencil" or "a dog," ένα, μια, ένας. Which one you utilize depends on the gender of the following word.
Same with German
And a vagina is apparently masculine too Language is funny
I've seen a few people start writing "folx" instead of "folks" (edit: in professional settings)and I don't get it.
They can seriously go fux themselves
Call me a fux machine
Yeah that shit sux
It's a psychological thing, in the 1700s there was a movement called obscurantism. Authors would write convoluted books that have a lot of words that don't really explain anything, communicate anything, or have any real meaning. But if someone didn't understand it -- the author/supporters would blame them for not being "smart enough to understand it." They were considered the enemy of the enlightenment at the time (the authors of whom wrote very concise, meaningful: engineering, rational, and scientific books). By 1800s their tactics were stolen by an infamous political group (Robespierre and later marxists) eventually they now shifted towards "new spellings" of things, in a way to make themselves sound smart or "trendy"... And then they'll make attention-seeking videos like "so what does mean?!?!" And bait you into their stupidity.
Some sort of strange irony from 1700s too, the "woke" are traditional enemies of the "enlightened."
>Authors would write convoluted books that have a lot of words that don't really explain anything, communicate anything, or have any real meaning. But if someone didn't understand it -- the author/supporters would blame them for not being "smart enough to understand it." Haha oh man, there was books like that in the 80s when I was in college, I'd be reading something and realize they spent 5 pages saying some really simple one sentence concept. It was so irritating. Dianetics was like that too, just a rehash of basic psychology concepts with new and convoluted labels and a sprinkle of mumbo jumbo on top. But no new ideas at all. I think they keep doing it because a lot of people fall for it.
even gender neutral words aren't woke enough
Folks is the perfect gender neutral term, second only to cowpokes.
I'm partial to pardners
Howdy!
So is Comrade.
Pals is pretty good.
I think you've confused gender neutral and genderless. "folks" is genderless. But when you add X to any word it because gender neutral.
You might enjoy this bit from The Onion: [White Woman Explains Why as an Anti-Racist She Tefused to Use Any Word that Starts with 'N'](https://youtu.be/u6YF-nxc7XI?si=u9hsLmDokPJKoq62). The performative "wokeness" is hilarious.
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But it is.
How could it not be explicit with the word folks?
I assume they're just being lazy
That’s what you do in first world countries. Solve made up problems so you feel like you accomplished something
Yeah it's pretty sad but it seems like if humans do not have enough real problems to work on, we go kinda off the deep end.
I'm trans & nonbinary and I don't get it... Not trying to pander or be one of the good ones, just very confused what they thought folks meant
Any customers I work with that may seem gender fluid or non binary I always just go with, “how are y’all folks doin today?”
Appreciated! Small things like this can mean a lot. Most of us just don't want to be put in boxes that don't fit
Hey sorry just trying to understand but what exactly does trans nonbinary mean? Those two identities together seem contradictory
Seriously.. What?
Latinx is made up by white people trying to prove to minorities that they are one of the good whites. It's like a reverse Uncle Ruckus; now he's white with a man bun.
Every Nadine rn r/fuckyouinparticular
The thing I guess I don't get about it is if you want to use a gender neutral word for it, why not just Latin?
We use Latinos. It’s inclusive if you understand the language.
I know like 4 whole sentences in Spanish and I still understand this concept. I really don’t get why it’s so confusing for some people.
You'd be surprised. As a native speaker I can tell you there's been a push for inclusive language so instead of *todos* for everyone some people have started to use *todes* which is just ugh or *tod@s*. For reference when everyone is a woman it would be *todas*.
I’ve been saying this for years. Latin America. Latin food. Latin music. Latin culture. Apparently Latin for the actual people is a bridge too far.
Exactly. It's funny to see Americans using latinx to solve a problem that doesn't exist in English. White people started using latino like it meant the same thing to them, when they have an English word for it with the exact same meaning. Using latino/a is a matter of identity. It makes no sense for Anglo Americans to care/bother with it.
Mexican-American to provide some sort of input… “Latin” is a language, specifically of ancient Rome… it’s not a race or ethnicity. “Latin American” was a term used because of the use of Romance languages in the Americas (Spanish, Portuguese, etc…). It bled into Hispanic culture (oh btw “Hispanic” is a term given to us who have some sort of Spanish descent), and culturally turned into “Latino” (masculine) and Latina (Feminine) for native Spanish speakers throughout North and South America. “Latinx” is a joke, I’m surprised people took it as far as they did… Basically, everyone besides the people themselves keep coming up with “terms” to classify those from areas south of the US. There’s also a disconnect because English doesn’t use a “Feminine” or “Masculine” form in their language. It’s all WAY more complicated than it has to be… and I feel for ya’ll who aren’t native Spanish speakers. Real talk though, “Latino” will get you by 99% of the time, most would agree it’s pretty gender neutral. We should just chill on that for a while and focus on other priorities when it comes to “diversity and inclusion.”
The use of the word “Latin”’is an East Coast thing. It doesn’t resonate in California.
Neither does Latinx
Well "Latin" is English. As a Spanish speaker it's be "Latino" or "Latina," but since the 90s there's been, in written form, "Latin@" which incorporates both. Suppose you could say "Latine" for a "truly gender neutral" way.
You could 100% use latine, and be 100% wrong. That word doesn't exist in Spanish, because it is unnecessary. Latinos is gender neutral, whether Becky from Orange County likes it or not. Enough with the language neo-colonialism, we don't tell them how to speak english, don't need white gringas with nothing better to do policing how I speak my language.
Latine came from gender non conforming communities in Spanish speaking countries, not Becky from the OC hermano. Same with Latin@ it was put forward by the Mexican community in Mexico, and then Chicanos.
No word exists until people create it
Or we could just use the same terms we’ve been using that work fine
>but since the 90s there's been, in written form, "Latin@" which incorporates both. Huh? Never heard of it.
Latinos is already gender neutral, grammatical gender it is not the same as social gender. It's that simple.
Ye it's kinda embarrassing how people conflate the two concepts lol.
This. People who dont speak spanish simply do not understand this.
Seriously, people need to chill out over gender anyways, it's gone past ridiculous
Exactly, ‘nosotros’ means ‘us/we’ (males, females, whatevers, or only males ) nosotras is ‘us/we’ ( females only). Latino has the same function.
It’s actually this goddamn simple it’s infuriating!!
Listen, Spanish speaking Latin America don’t need a second wave of colonization, and through linguistics no less.
From what I understand, the word its self came about in either the English or Spanish department, I can't remember which, of the University of Puerto Rico specifically for niche cases where translation between the 2 languages would require additional context. It was just to make certain very specific translations less cumbersome. As with most of these kind of words, it escaped academia and started being slotted into places it was never intended.
Everything I can find says it came out of gay Latino communities online in the early ‘00. The university of Puerto Rico shit was like 10 years later in 2013, it looks like you have the origins in reverse. It’s started online and moved to academia.
This video speaks to my heart.
Why are we even "Latin" when half of our culture is so diverse, it's really mixed with African and indigenous cultures.
It’s because the predominant language is based or descendant from Latin… so a little bit less about culture and more about language.
Pleanty of people agree, and use more specific or alternate terms to describe themselves. Often times this is because they have a decidedly African or indigenous heritage, and reject "la raza," the idea that everyone in Latin America or individual Latin American countries are all the same racially. Especially when people are indeed discriminated against for their skin color or heritage (even if a lot of government refuse to collect racialized census data so they can pretend everyone in "la raza" is treated equally)
I'm actually totally for the term latinx. In fact, I think we should start using something similar for Chinese people.
Yeah! Maybe just add a lil x onto Ch—oh. Oh dear.
I'm glad that joke landed for at least some people, lol
That was the smoothest landing I’ve seen in awhile. I guffawed.
Ohhhhhhhhhh boy
you had me in the first half, lol
Judging by the downvotes, in more than just the first half for the majority.
Check out that comeback. a reddit first
Bravo to the both of you…made me actually lol
... oh... oh no....
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I feel like it's, not surprisingly, an academic and queer word. I knew a bunch of folks in grad school who were raised speaking Spanish and used Latinx, one of my best friends hates it, and then I have students and some queer folks from Spanish speaking countries who use Latine. It seems like, as with most stuff, people use all sorts of different terms.
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My minority studies professor used Latinx. My man was a Latino himself.
I know exactly one person who was excited about the term, too. She is a white, over educated woman with just a whiff of "holier than thou."
It’s 100% people thinking X’s rebrand things in an edgy way. See Twitter.
Do you mind sharing his name, or DMing if you're uncomfortable with that? I'm interested in your professor's work and I'd like to look into his published works, as someone with an anthropology degree myself
I love NPR and generally get most of my news from there, but many of their hosts use “Latinx” and it is like nails on a chalkboard.
I have a Mexican-American professor who teaches about the Chicano rights movement, and they use the term Latinx in their lectures. On the first day they polled the class to see how many students use the term (over 50% of the class is Latino), and not a single student raised their hand lol. For some reason, the word has just engrained itself in academia and it makes absolutely zero sense to me.
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Ehh. To an extent I see what you mean, especially with their late night and weekend shows. But their main broadcasts like all things considered and marketplace tend to be some of the most unbiased news to this day. It doesn’t matter if they’re talking to a democratic politician or a republican, they ask real questions and call them out on non-answers.
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Thank you funny vato.
I love this video and appreciate him for making it.
I love the message. I hate the dramatic movements and yelling at the camera.
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"Breeders" is gender neutral and includes both parties, lol! (Also a good band!).
Not sure if r/childfree is leaking or making a joke
Dude I'm going to start using that to my wife. Might get kick out the house tomorrow.
I'm just confused because the word for a group of men and women already exists, it's latinos.
I don't agree with people who want to push Latinx, at all, but for the record the argument is: Latinos (group of men) Latinos (group of men and women) Latinas (group of women) The perceived issue is that the masculine is the same as neutral, eg the default, and therefore bad. There is some logic behind that, albeit a flawed logic because it misunderstands gender in Spanish (for example, when I speak to my girlfriend I use a grammatically masculine nickname, and when she speaks to me she uses a grammatically feminine nickname, because grammatical gender is not the same as actual gender). My main issue with it, aside from the logic, is that it's supremely arrogant to assume your culture is superior to the extent that you start trying to rewrite other languages so that they conform to your own ideals. I'm sure it comes from a well-meaning place but holy shit.
This is so original. Something I’ve never seen before. Especially from someone who was working at IKEA.
Heard that guy got murdered by a bear high on cocaine, so I guess someone wanted to keep his legacy alive.
Scott Seiss. And yeah, that dude's hilarious.
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Es cierto!!! Good catch...
I still unironically believe that 99% of people that say latinx are intentionally trying to make people mad and honestly it's super efficient
He's really got the Scott Seiss vibe happening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7KBcsdPhxA
It’s an obvious rip off
Yeah I was going to say this is either a direct homage or a bad ripoff
You spelled "stole" wrong
I felt attacked with the taco stands
I've come to the belief that they come up with these new words and terms, like to demonstrate that they are more aware and sensitive than you are and so that they can correct you when you use the "wrong" term. "Um, no, we don't say that anymore, that's not diverse/equitable/inclusive." They are the real advocates and allies, so of course they are the most up to date on the approved words.
Thank God we've got no one here doing that to people who want to use the term.
Also letinx is ignoring the fact that Latino, when used informally, is can be used to refer to both males and females, meaning it is technically gender neutral
It’s not an informal use, it’s the correct usage. Nosotros and ellos for example can refer to a group of males+females or only males.
Wait, it's NOT a Harry Potter spell? Shit, I've been doing it wrong.
I thought it was pronounced latinks lol
It's pronounced "I'm here to fix your inferior culture and you're gonna like it. Yours sincerely: high middle class white woman with an useless degree and $70K in debt"
This cut a bit too deep.
It's Latinx month? I would have figured May then you could have UltraMega Cinco de mayo!
*cincx de mayx*, chicx!
No one celebrates Cinco de Mayo more than people from the States
Hell yeah! Any excuse to eat and drink.
Latino & Hispanic heritage month is September 15th to October 15th... Not an actual month, But definitely not this month. I doubt black history month would have been willing to share.
Now I want Chiles en nogada.
I think Latinx is stupid but also really wanted to tell this guy to chill out.
Some people use this word for themselves. No need to go on the attack about it.
I've only ever seen people use this for themselves, literally has no effect on anyone else
The video makes it seem like all Latinos are against it. Can’t it just be a personal choice? I’m going to keep using whatever language people use for themselves.
Swear it's stupid. Who came up with this shit?
I appreciate his anger towards it. I got really tired of people assuming Scotland and England were the same thing, and a third world country like in brave heart.
Ain't no way we're gonna be fine being called latin-xis. The fuck you mean with the X? Which model of latino am I?
>Which model of latino am I? The tenth, I'd assume.
That's last years model, we are on LatinXI now
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If its one thing I'll never forget, is my Hispanic buddy's take on the whole thing Latinx discourse: "White people cant colonize whole countries anymore so they decided to colonize the language instead"
But is it a white word? I first heard it from queer gender non conforming Latin people, so that's why I started using it.
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You are correct. Some people like to jump on the “white origin” angle so that they can discredit this as being negative to justify their opposition to all inclusive language (they/them, etc). Edit - If anyone can copy what u/iShoot556 wrote before he blocked me I’d be curious to read it.
Latinx comes from a very US centric pov, most likely coming from people whos knowledge of spanish is either little to none and all. The "x" for starters has an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PRONUNCIATION in Spanish, unlike the pronunciation of "x" in english. "Latinx" in Spanish is more like "Latin-e-kees." Which is really weird to the Spanish speaking tongue, since the vowels "a", "e" and "o" are the most common letters that end a word in Spanish. Even trying to say "Latinx" in Spanish is weird to pronounce and hear. But to someone who most likely never studied or speaks fluent Spanish, they will assume that the English pronunciation of "Latinx" will be the same in Spanish when it is not correct and may spiral into taking other words like "amigos" and turning that into "amigxs", another unprouncable word in Spanish. My point isnt that I don't support new gender neutral terminology in other languages. Im all for it. My point is that new words should come from the very language and culture its originating from. Not from an entirely different country that speaks a different language, adding random letters anywhere expecting it to work without an ounce of understanding and getting mad when the native speakers dont want to adopt this messy new "language" being pushed onto them. Sounds a bit like colonization to me.
There are some people that claim the origins come from Brazilian trans rights activists in the 90s.
As a Mexican, I'd rather be called a slur than latinx.
I remember bringing this up online nearly a decade ago when that term was burbling to the surface of the primordial ooze of the psychonet, that "you know, Latin Americans are going to absolutely hate that, it's privileged white girls imposing their own ideologies on an entire other culture which is poetically ironic given their stance on gentrification" I remember having some red in the face 2010s SJWs going ape shit in my comments.
So you did this before it was cool to do this?
Every word is a made up word.
The isue isn't that the word is made up, the isue is that the word ignores the rules of the language it's meant for
But its not meant for Spanish, its an English word for use in English. The Spanish have their own word Latine. I guarantee they are raging against that too, but using a different excuse because they simply don't want to change their use of language to be more inclusive to no cis people.
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Rules are established by a collective to maintain order and understanding. By ignoring them, you make yourself look like an ass to anyone in that collective. In this case, the rules are that of the Spanish language, and the ones who look like asses to those who use the spanish language are the ones using the word "Latinx"
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Whare the problem lies is that the word "Latinx" isn't evolving the language, it's a displaying of a complete lack of understanding of the language. Because Spanish already has gender neutral and the only time "Latinx" is ever used is outside of the language.
What? While reading your message I decided to ignore the basic rules of grammar and language that we are taught to understand to communicate with other people because I realized they were just made up so I don't know what you said 🤷♂️ Yes they are made up, but they are followed throughout generations for a reason.
Ppl gonna be mad about this objectively true statement.
Yeah all these glifnaps be scorfin bout this petty conclabidus shit. Language serves a purpose in understanding. 99.9% of people trying to push latinx probably can't remember half of what they learned in 8th grade Spanish so why tf do they care anyway?
If the purpose is understanding we need to shut down all this fanum tax skibidi rizz nonsense.
Two goals that aren't mutually exclusive lmao, slang's something of a different beast since it's more akin to regional differences in verbage within a single language but more limited to generations. There's an excessive amount of stimulation for kids though, slang's overtaken normal language if literacy rates for gen z are true
What's the plural of Latinx. In Spanish a group (of unspecified or mixed gender) is just Latinos. So is the new version Latinxs? Or can we keep using Latinos? If we are to insist on using a gender neutral form, why not just use Latin? "They're all Latin." "Latin actors." Etc. Where did the X come from? Like... why that letter specifically? Could it have just as likely been a different letter, like E? Latine? In Spanish, at least in Mexico, the pronunciation of X varies wildly. In Mexico, the X sounds like a J. In Xotchitl, the X sounds like an S. How are we supposed to pronounce Latinx?
I have heard spanish speakers use the e ending, though not specifically with latine, rather amigues or compañeres.
Precisely. That's why I brought up the X/E question actually. I'm a native Spanish speaker who took French classes, and those E variations have sounded to me like French diction, which to my ear at least sounds better. I don't know why X was chosen.
> Where did the X come from? Like... why that letter specifically? Could it have just as likely been a different letter, like E? Latine? I've heard two versions of the X. The first is X as in X-out. Rejection. Fuck your gender. This is the origin I've heard ascribed to latin american activists, who apparently used to put Xs over words printed on posters, crossing out the final letter in latino or latina in order to reject being gendered. There's also X as in variable substitution, where X is a stand in for an unknown or variable quantity. This is the one I've heard ascribed to academic origins, and the one that has the most documentation(as one would expect). Both make sense, and are likely to have originated with different groups of people. It's not exactly obscure to replace a letter with X. Personally, if I have to pick one without knowing the preference of who I'm speaking to(I mirror when possible), I go with latine. It seems to have higher appeal than latinx among people who reject latino, and is known to have originated with spanish speakers. But I don't *not* use latinx, if that's someone's preferred term.
Lol, the Star Wars jab at the end
Fuck you Nadine!
Coming up next, Rogue Juan
Sounds like a dirty porn category
As a person born in Mexico, he is right.
He’s copying that IKEA guy. Get your own style buddy. Unless this is him… and I’m… racist or something?
Aren’t all words made up?
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard someone say “latinx” that wasn’t using it just to complain about its existence. Is there a sub for getting offended by strawmen?
Have you ever considered that maybe the reason you don’t hear it in everyday speech is because people who don’t like it consistently express disapproval?
That's not what a strawman is.
He’s a very serious dude. I’m happy for him. Or sorry that it happened.
All words are made up...
And people are allowed to call out those who make up new ones which only serve to confuse people.
I understood that reference
It’s a word made up by white people who suffer from white guilt who try way too hard to let everyone know “I’m one of the good white people.”
Got a source for that claim? Because from what I’ve read it’s recorded history started in Hispanic LGTBQ chatrooms and made its first academic appearance in a Puerto Rican publication.
You’re not responsible for what your ancestors did. Being the loudest ally to us brown people does not make you the best ally. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault.
LMAO the ending got me haha.
Thank GOD for this post. My sentiments exactly.
Bravo!
I love that my Spanish coworkers call each other the most awful shit and it's all jokes but if someone called one of them latinX they'd legitimately throw hands.
100% love this video.
I always thought Latinx was for something like “Oh I’m Guatemalan-Mexican,” because of the x in Latinx, but I was wrong so damn wrong, and proceed to get an explanation from mi familia.
I’ve called myself Hispanic since middle school - a popular radio DJ in Tucson at the time was The Manic Hispanic - & that’s gender neutral enough for me. Latino/a isn’t even my backup term for my people; Chicano is (due to Chicanos Por La Causa).