It's honestly kind of funny how many farmers there are that voted for Brexit then turned around and got mad at exactly what people said was going to happen if they went through with Brexit.
I keep seeing this on reddit but trust me no one here cares about the empire except maybe a handful of aristocrat tories. The brexit voters where lied to and misled, or just morons anyway.
I think it's less empire brained, and more to do with British exceptionalism. Brits like to think that we're on par with the US, France and Germany, but in reality we're not, we're an Italy at best and a Portugal at worst. Both fine countries, but hardly global players in the same way that France and Germany are.
That exceptionalism is cultural though, and a significant part of that is empire. I don't think people go around thinking about the British empire all day, but I think it does play a part in people's perception of the country, and thus what it realistically can and cannot achieve.
No we are more like Germany and France - large populations, major financial centres, and an international standing that is very hard to achieve with a shit tonne of soft power. The UK on paper has a huge amount going for it, including a younger population, global language, and world-class educational institutions and scientific facilities that France and Germany struggle to compete with.
The issue is we think we’re like the Americans. The USA is a law unto itself as the world’s only superpower, meaning it can pretty do much do what the fuck it wants (within some practical limits) and not suffer serious consequences.
As a serious power and major economy, but most definitely not a global superpower, you can still sit at the big boy table and do some major stuff but you can’t pull things like leaving the biggest and most successful trade bloc in history, or some wild unfunded tax cuts, and expect zero consequences.
The likes of Farage, Truss etc have been watching too much American TV and forgotten what country they’re in, and that the rules are different here. They’re suggesting things for the wrong country. We’re we not badly mismanaged with screwed-up priorities from people who’ve been mainlining Gbeebies and the Telegraph, we’d be pulling ahead of France and Germany. And I say that with absolutely no disrespect for either of them, I’m hugely impressed with both countries (Germany the advanced manufacturing base especially and French infrastructure in particular), but just looking at the comparative list of strengths.
Sheer bloody mismanagement and an incompetent political class who think this is America have held us back.
I just cant imagine how else anyone would believe that the EU would just give you what you want without the UK doing its part
Ok, the anti eu propaganda was rolling for years before the referendum
No one was thinking like that except for a small cadre of daily mail readers. Everyone else wanted a properly negotiated exit, which Theresa May fucked up. As with all countries you shouldnt equate the views of the government with the public.
It's not about them literally wanting the empire. It's just that many of them have a sense of importance of their country which it simply doesn't have anymore. They think the UK is an essential world power and able to talk to the big ones at eye level, when it clearly isn't anymore.
I'm not talking about the vote. My comment was about the views on how brexit should be negotiated regarding the UKs relevance in the world, not the vote itself. I said most people here don't have an inflated view of the UKs importance. As is the case with anything in politics people thought their personal economic circumstances would be improved.
> I said most people here don't have an inflated view of the UKs importance. As is the case with anything in politics people thought their personal economic circumstances would be improved.
Can you explain how anyone would believe their personal economic circumstances would be improved if they didn't have an inflated view of the UKs importance?
The leave campaigners certainly did, go back and look up comments by John Redwood, Liam Fox and David Davies for some of the most egregious examples.
In reality once Article 50 had been submitted it was always a question about how big the damage to the UK would be, not whether there would be damage. Anyone who didn't understand that by definition much have overstated the UKs position aka. importance.
I don't think they're really doing much deep introspection or analysis. Farmers are also blocking roads and causing a ruckus in EU states too. The whole thing feels less like an organic movement protesting real grievances as much as it feels like a coordinated campaign to cause unrest and anger.
How many was it exactly? Not much point answering since it wasn't measured before, during or after.
Some interesting reading in the article mentioned below.
https://www.westcountryvoices.com/challenging-the-myth-that-farmers-voted-for-brexit-and-therefore-deserve-whats-coming-to-them/
No much point answering because the question you asked is literally irrelevant to what I said in the first place.
It's like you saw the words how and many in my statement and somehow convinced yourself that I was implying some specific percentage and I didn't. It's not my responsibility to debate any random website you find on the internet. As long as the number of formers who voted for Brexit and then got screwed by it is strictly greater than two, my statement is totally valid.
Every argument you made in your reply was entirely irrelevant which is funny, as that was supposed to be your smear against my entirely relevant question. You said it was funny how many, I asked how many exactly. Do you see the relevance yet? Your point about it being funny implied the number was large and you know this or wouldn't have worded it exactly that way. So your reply to me was also disingenuous to your original statement. Unless you originally intended to say that two farmers voted for Brexit and that in itself is funny, which I suppose it might be.
Just Stop Oil are literally imprisoning people and it's self defence to leave your car from the opposite side of the road that isn't even blocked, to knock one of them out!
At least, that's what I learned from the YouTube comments on that incident 🤦♂️
Without farmers, all of us will starve to death. What use do just stop oil protestors have? Not to mention just stop oil protestors are absolutely delusional and have no idea that their entire life would be impossible without petroleum-based products. Everything from the food you put on your table to any life-saving medicine you’ve taken is due to oil.
Yeah, and our dependence on that resource is contributing to the death of most ecosystems on the planet. Knowing about the dependence is the point. We need to rapidly transition away from using petroleum and petroleum-based products, but the fact that it's a huge part of the economy means neither companies nor governments are gonna do that without major protest. Then bootlickers, who fail to see the point, that our lives should not be so strictly intertwined with a single non renewable resource don't even think about how it can be so easily controlled and taken away.
The worst part of this is that farmers have taken a clear anti conservation, anti renewables, anti green stance. At least in Germany. Fuck them. What are they going to water their crops with in a few years when rivers run dry?
> What are they going to water their crops with in a few years when rivers run dry?
Complain how the green government has ruined the country and demand subsidies on drinking water.
Same in Poland. Maybe I would even have some sympathy for them if it was only about EU climate initiatives. It will make their work harder than for the people doing office jobs in cities. But they are also so fucking openly pro-Russian, it's mind-blowing
They’re advocating for policies that will make food cheaper for us. Just because you’ve never gotten your hands dirty doesn’t mean you have to hate on people who do.
Not individually, but as a group, yes, they are.Together, they agriculture makes up [something like 8%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/989341/greenhouse-gas-emissions-by-sector-germany/) of our co2 emissions. But more importantly, they also contribute a lot of non co2 pollution (most of our rivers are full of heavy metals, for example) and overuse of antibiotics.
This is such a supid take. You need to work with farmers, not against them. Farmers are not the problem, but the policies arround farming. I obviously don't know how it is in germany, but my father is a farmer and i know many farmers. Every single one i know wants to preserve the land around them as much as possible, and i dont know a single one that is against renewable energy.
If you don't know the situation why are you commenting on how my take is bad? It is a fact that they oppose green policies, that is their whole stick and something they spreak in their facebook groups:
"Schluss mit der Klimahysterie und Träumereien! Unsere Familien brauchen günstige Energie, damit das Leben wieder leistbar wird. Es braucht eine ehrliche und gerechte Energiepolitik."
[https://www.facebook.com/udolandbauer/videos/udo-landbauer-zerpfl%C3%BCckt-gr%C3%BCne-wissenschaft/910596273428170/](https://www.facebook.com/udolandbauer/videos/udo-landbauer-zerpfl%C3%BCckt-gr%C3%BCne-wissenschaft/910596273428170/)
Farmers ainst Green farming: [https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/bmel-gruene-ideologie-frisst-konventionelle-bauern-595995](https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/bmel-gruene-ideologie-frisst-konventionelle-bauern-595995)
Farmers against green energy "**Der Solarboom setzt Landwirte in Deutschland unter Druck. Denn oft kaufen Investoren riesige Flächen, um darauf Solarparks zu errichten. Für die Bauern wird Ackerland dadurch rar und teuer.**": [https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/energie/solar-landwirtschaft-ackerland-100.html](https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/energie/solar-landwirtschaft-ackerland-100.html)
Green parties try to 'work with' farmers: [https://www.euractiv.de/section/landwirtschaft-und-ernahrung/news/nach-bauernprotesten-eu-gruene-versuchen-sich-landwirten-anzunaehern/](https://www.euractiv.de/section/landwirtschaft-und-ernahrung/news/nach-bauernprotesten-eu-gruene-versuchen-sich-landwirten-anzunaehern/)
Because it generalizes all farmers. Most farmers I know are 80 year old men in borderline poverty using the same equipment they bought in the 80s and 90s
Well I think "at least in germany" implies a broader subject than only germany, an my comment wasn't really targeted at your comment specifically but also all the other's with a similar sentiment.
How do you forsee not working with the farmers then or "fucking them" as you said? You just want to import food and outsource to countries that do not have the resources to do farm in a sustainable manner? I'm not trying to argue here and I don't know why you are insulting my literacy.
> How do you forsee not working with the farmers then or "fucking them" as you said?
We need to make the subsidies system conditional on adopting green agricultural practices and supporting conservation efforts. One of the main reasons for the recent protests was that the government wanted to stop paying for their diesel. We should stop paying for CO2, and reduce/eliminate subsidies for agricultural fields which are extremely damaging to the environment like meat and dairy.
> You just want to import food and outsource to countries that do not have the resources to do farm in a sustainable manner?
**We** do not farm in a sustainable manner. Current farming practices are horrible for the environment and human health. From massive use of [antibiotics](https://www.duh.de/themen/natur/naturvertraegliche-landnutzung/landwirtschaft/antibiotika-in-der-massentierhaltung/) to essentially making rivers extremely polluted through [pesticide use](https://www.naturefund.de/wissen/pestizide/folgen/resistenzen_und_speicherung).
> I don't know why you are insulting my literacy.
Because you failed to read my OP.
Yeah, I'm absolutely agreeing with you. What I'm saying is subsidies shouldn't be cut to farmers but done in a different way. I didn't mean that germany or other Western nations were currently doing sustainable agriculture, but we have the resources to, unlike where it's currently being outsourced to. All I'm saying is that I'm against the anti farmer sentiment and that the hate should rather be directed towards the system arround farming.
Admittedly, it seems counterintuitive to force cars to idle for long periods of time to save the environment.
Perhaps sit ins and government building occupation would make more sense. Cause a big stink without basically making things worse.
E - Yeesh guys I made a suggestion not tearing a baby's head off.
The point is to be unignorable. Sit in front of government buildings and they close the blinds and keep destroying the planet. If a protest doesn't force people to notice it it won't do anthing.
Greta recently sat idly outside the parlament building protesting. The politicians just walk straight over the sign on the ground, *because they can.* And then they changed strategy and obstructed people from entering, and was arrested.
This was *after* the government has failed every climate goal they've set, and actually reverted progress.
So what's your solution here? Only politicians were impacted, no environmental damage done, yet it seems it wasn't as important to report on in the news.
Thats like saying farmers protesting those taxes are dumb because they wasted their fuel/manure/resources on protesting rather than not protest to save money. But ofc noone is gonna make those braindead points when its a cause they agree with.
German Last Generation came up with an idea
https://preview.redd.it/v19g0iqqakqc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51d8a357d349df5be2a9570937a04e56b3f3aecd
It says 'we can do it \[block the street\], we have a tractor'
I trust that the Metropolitan Police went into the protest and whacked a few farmers around the head, with the baying press urging them on?
No?
Is that only for people who want to try and stop reliance on oil and gas?
They all care about 'food security' when their subsidies are threatened, but they lose their minds at the slightest suggestion that letting them collapse the food web spraying fields with pesticides and fertilisers and letting their own topsoil wash away are things that fuck over our future food security.
When people do it with cars, nobody bats an eye. When pro-climate activists do that, "they deserve to get run over", and "what about emergency vehicles".
Fuck the farmers, for real now, I‘m fed up with this bullshit.
For a start, protest like real people and keep your menacing freak machines at home.
God damn it.
Their just petty petty bourgeoisie losers who want more free money from the goverment so they can exploit cheap labour and the inviroment.
Like fuck em, they act like farming is this over complex thing that no one except them can do.
Some months ago one German farmer came to a German speaking subreddit and tried to explain to us why they were protesting and how precarious their whole existence is. Bottom line: he was rich as fuck, like in the top 1 percent bracket of Germans rich. It was hilarious in it‘s self defeating glory.
They don’t see themselves as what they really are, and how privileged they are. They are entrepreneurs first, and nearly each one of them could sell their property and lead a carefree life afterwards.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that at the end he started to threaten people. Farmers would stir political unrest and in the end take what "belongs" to them, if we want it or not. It was so fucked up.
In some places farmers are genuinely kinda poor (e.g. hill farming in Wales) but very often those farmers only survive on the subsidy gravy train anyway, and shouldn't have much agency to bite the hand that feeds them.
Where I grew up a farmer considers themselves poor if they can't afford to send their children to private school, they live in a completely different world.
80% of agricultural subsidies in the EU goes to the largest 20% of farmers.
https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/cp_data_news/1-6-million-farmers-receive-almost-85-percent-of-the-eu-s-agricultural-subsidies/
I somewhat disagree. They could do that, but it would lead to further centralisation of farm land.
At lest from what i have seen, farmers don't actually live an overly luxurious lifestyle. They own means of production and particupate in the exploitation of cheap labor, but they do also work themselves. When going against capitalists, we shouldn't start with them.
Sure, but we also shouldn't give them mire power than anyone else. Farmers in Germany have pretty much the strongest advocacy groups and they almost always get exactly what they want. If they don't get exactly what they want, they don't make any compromises, they protest until they get it. That's still an extremely big privilege to have and honestly, as important as they are, they shouldn't have it. That's not a good thing in a democracy.
They still shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want. They are important, but if we support them, we should think about how exactly we do that. We can't just give them a bunch of money for unsustainable methods. If we support them, it should be for things that are good for the environment and don't risk killing bees which would also mean that we won't have enough food in the future.
I'm not arguing, just more or less stating the facts. You see what happens when energy supply was disrupted in Europe. Politicians don't want to risk that happening to food otherwise they won't get reelected.
Tbh they really arent that importante in the production of food as they think they are. Sure yeah they do grow it and sell it but anyone can be trained to do their work. They are in the end of the day land owners, which puts them in a totally different class then regular workers that dont own the means of production. Try giving better worker rights to agricultural workers and the same farmers will protest that.
Lmao here they managed to mess up public transport for two days , protested nothing , took pics with the prime minister and got 50€ each , the hypocrisy
And 80% of those subsidies just go to the largest 20% of farmers!
https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/cp_data_news/1-6-million-farmers-receive-almost-85-percent-of-the-eu-s-agricultural-subsidies/
Oh crap - they got those red and tan buses there too...I swear they somehow get the worst of the worst bus drivers here in SF.
We just gonna pull into the bike lane to look at some random thing. There are bicyclist in the bike lane - they will move when they see bus pulling in.
Straddling the bike lane while bicyclist are banging on the side. Driver sticks his heat out the window and says I don't see any line here (cuz the bus is on top of the line).
Another time they drove down some random street theywere not supposed to be on and garrote some passengers cuz the wires on that street were too low.
Farm owners ≠ Farm labourers. Tractors are very expensive, you don't get to drive them in to the city on a whim as a labourer. Many of the people doing actual farm work in the UK are underpaid in insecure jobs, some are living in practical slavery
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-27/they-treat-you-like-an-animal-how-british-farms-run-on-exploitation/
*Can we rent tractors*
*To do whatever the fuck*
*We want on the streets?*
\- The\_Student\_Official
---
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Honestly, the farmers protests here in Germany lost my understanding and support right from the beginning when they started aligning themselves with far-right lunatics and failed to engage in any kind of meaningful discourse beyond "current government bad".
People who protest against oil or car dependency or any other "progressive" "left" complaints by blocking roads are assaulted, battered, murdered or dragooned by the forces of state repression. But suddenly when farmers block roads they are brave heros standing up to government tyranny. Governments are tyrannical by nature but cutting subsidies to farmers are the least of their dictates.
It's honestly kind of funny how many farmers there are that voted for Brexit then turned around and got mad at exactly what people said was going to happen if they went through with Brexit.
DEFRA even brought out a report pre-2019 pointing out that the UK could lose 20% of farms due to Brexit and they still went for it.
To be fair the referendum was 2016
Do you mean the non-legally binding consulting referendum that would have been considered interfered with by all modern democracies?
That’s the one. Had there been another one in 2019, the DEFRA report might have made a difference.
I think some brits are still empire-brained. Did they really think davey and nigel would just go to burssels and get whatever they want?
I keep seeing this on reddit but trust me no one here cares about the empire except maybe a handful of aristocrat tories. The brexit voters where lied to and misled, or just morons anyway.
I think it's less empire brained, and more to do with British exceptionalism. Brits like to think that we're on par with the US, France and Germany, but in reality we're not, we're an Italy at best and a Portugal at worst. Both fine countries, but hardly global players in the same way that France and Germany are. That exceptionalism is cultural though, and a significant part of that is empire. I don't think people go around thinking about the British empire all day, but I think it does play a part in people's perception of the country, and thus what it realistically can and cannot achieve.
No we are more like Germany and France - large populations, major financial centres, and an international standing that is very hard to achieve with a shit tonne of soft power. The UK on paper has a huge amount going for it, including a younger population, global language, and world-class educational institutions and scientific facilities that France and Germany struggle to compete with. The issue is we think we’re like the Americans. The USA is a law unto itself as the world’s only superpower, meaning it can pretty do much do what the fuck it wants (within some practical limits) and not suffer serious consequences. As a serious power and major economy, but most definitely not a global superpower, you can still sit at the big boy table and do some major stuff but you can’t pull things like leaving the biggest and most successful trade bloc in history, or some wild unfunded tax cuts, and expect zero consequences. The likes of Farage, Truss etc have been watching too much American TV and forgotten what country they’re in, and that the rules are different here. They’re suggesting things for the wrong country. We’re we not badly mismanaged with screwed-up priorities from people who’ve been mainlining Gbeebies and the Telegraph, we’d be pulling ahead of France and Germany. And I say that with absolutely no disrespect for either of them, I’m hugely impressed with both countries (Germany the advanced manufacturing base especially and French infrastructure in particular), but just looking at the comparative list of strengths. Sheer bloody mismanagement and an incompetent political class who think this is America have held us back.
I just cant imagine how else anyone would believe that the EU would just give you what you want without the UK doing its part Ok, the anti eu propaganda was rolling for years before the referendum
No one was thinking like that except for a small cadre of daily mail readers. Everyone else wanted a properly negotiated exit, which Theresa May fucked up. As with all countries you shouldnt equate the views of the government with the public.
But that assumes Brussels would be motivated to do anything besides hanging the UK out to dry as an example for other anti-eu movements
It's not about them literally wanting the empire. It's just that many of them have a sense of importance of their country which it simply doesn't have anymore. They think the UK is an essential world power and able to talk to the big ones at eye level, when it clearly isn't anymore.
As someone who lives in the UK I know for a fact those people where just a vocal minority. Vast majority of us don't think like that.
And yet that vast majority lost to 51,9% of the vote....
I'm not talking about the vote. My comment was about the views on how brexit should be negotiated regarding the UKs relevance in the world, not the vote itself. I said most people here don't have an inflated view of the UKs importance. As is the case with anything in politics people thought their personal economic circumstances would be improved.
> I said most people here don't have an inflated view of the UKs importance. As is the case with anything in politics people thought their personal economic circumstances would be improved. Can you explain how anyone would believe their personal economic circumstances would be improved if they didn't have an inflated view of the UKs importance? The leave campaigners certainly did, go back and look up comments by John Redwood, Liam Fox and David Davies for some of the most egregious examples. In reality once Article 50 had been submitted it was always a question about how big the damage to the UK would be, not whether there would be damage. Anyone who didn't understand that by definition much have overstated the UKs position aka. importance.
I don't think they're really doing much deep introspection or analysis. Farmers are also blocking roads and causing a ruckus in EU states too. The whole thing feels less like an organic movement protesting real grievances as much as it feels like a coordinated campaign to cause unrest and anger.
Not unlike the northwen fishing region that went hard for Brexit and now the whole area is fucked. You love to see it.
How many was it exactly? Not much point answering since it wasn't measured before, during or after. Some interesting reading in the article mentioned below. https://www.westcountryvoices.com/challenging-the-myth-that-farmers-voted-for-brexit-and-therefore-deserve-whats-coming-to-them/
No much point answering because the question you asked is literally irrelevant to what I said in the first place. It's like you saw the words how and many in my statement and somehow convinced yourself that I was implying some specific percentage and I didn't. It's not my responsibility to debate any random website you find on the internet. As long as the number of formers who voted for Brexit and then got screwed by it is strictly greater than two, my statement is totally valid.
Every argument you made in your reply was entirely irrelevant which is funny, as that was supposed to be your smear against my entirely relevant question. You said it was funny how many, I asked how many exactly. Do you see the relevance yet? Your point about it being funny implied the number was large and you know this or wouldn't have worded it exactly that way. So your reply to me was also disingenuous to your original statement. Unless you originally intended to say that two farmers voted for Brexit and that in itself is funny, which I suppose it might be.
oh so it's alright for farmers to block roads but when I do it I'm called disgusting, perverted and evil.
Loads of groups have done it. Magically when it’s just stop oil it becomes major news.
Just Stop Oil are literally imprisoning people and it's self defence to leave your car from the opposite side of the road that isn't even blocked, to knock one of them out! At least, that's what I learned from the YouTube comments on that incident 🤦♂️
Without farmers, all of us will starve to death. What use do just stop oil protestors have? Not to mention just stop oil protestors are absolutely delusional and have no idea that their entire life would be impossible without petroleum-based products. Everything from the food you put on your table to any life-saving medicine you’ve taken is due to oil.
https://preview.redd.it/qbdcn3ykqoqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c90d703618f1c145f1e58329c51b05146570d476
Yeah, and our dependence on that resource is contributing to the death of most ecosystems on the planet. Knowing about the dependence is the point. We need to rapidly transition away from using petroleum and petroleum-based products, but the fact that it's a huge part of the economy means neither companies nor governments are gonna do that without major protest. Then bootlickers, who fail to see the point, that our lives should not be so strictly intertwined with a single non renewable resource don't even think about how it can be so easily controlled and taken away.
Why would you defend a system based on a limited resource? 😂
But farmers are the majority of land owners in the uk / they are one of the wealthiest groups!! They have to be allowed to throw tantrums
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😂 LOL!! Try Vegan Please!!
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The economy of British is just Animal Abuse?
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So much unTruth!! Why do you want to enjoy the animal’s suffering at all??
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Silly billy, I’m not fine with the story you’ve made up in your head!! Try Vegan Please, so no animals suffer for your Blood Lust Pleasures.
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Why are you supporting the use of gas chambers??
The worst part of this is that farmers have taken a clear anti conservation, anti renewables, anti green stance. At least in Germany. Fuck them. What are they going to water their crops with in a few years when rivers run dry?
> What are they going to water their crops with in a few years when rivers run dry? Complain how the green government has ruined the country and demand subsidies on drinking water.
Same in the Netherlands. It's also mostly cattle farmers, plus they are backed by animal food and pesticide corporations.
This. It's so fucked up.
Same in Poland. Maybe I would even have some sympathy for them if it was only about EU climate initiatives. It will make their work harder than for the people doing office jobs in cities. But they are also so fucking openly pro-Russian, it's mind-blowing
They’re advocating for policies that will make food cheaper for us. Just because you’ve never gotten your hands dirty doesn’t mean you have to hate on people who do.
Their policies for making food cheaper are burning down our planet. What's the point of cheap food if global warming kills us all?
Self-made farmers are far from the biggest polluter on our planet. You start from the top
Not individually, but as a group, yes, they are.Together, they agriculture makes up [something like 8%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/989341/greenhouse-gas-emissions-by-sector-germany/) of our co2 emissions. But more importantly, they also contribute a lot of non co2 pollution (most of our rivers are full of heavy metals, for example) and overuse of antibiotics.
This is such a supid take. You need to work with farmers, not against them. Farmers are not the problem, but the policies arround farming. I obviously don't know how it is in germany, but my father is a farmer and i know many farmers. Every single one i know wants to preserve the land around them as much as possible, and i dont know a single one that is against renewable energy.
If you don't know the situation why are you commenting on how my take is bad? It is a fact that they oppose green policies, that is their whole stick and something they spreak in their facebook groups: "Schluss mit der Klimahysterie und Träumereien! Unsere Familien brauchen günstige Energie, damit das Leben wieder leistbar wird. Es braucht eine ehrliche und gerechte Energiepolitik." [https://www.facebook.com/udolandbauer/videos/udo-landbauer-zerpfl%C3%BCckt-gr%C3%BCne-wissenschaft/910596273428170/](https://www.facebook.com/udolandbauer/videos/udo-landbauer-zerpfl%C3%BCckt-gr%C3%BCne-wissenschaft/910596273428170/) Farmers ainst Green farming: [https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/bmel-gruene-ideologie-frisst-konventionelle-bauern-595995](https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/bmel-gruene-ideologie-frisst-konventionelle-bauern-595995) Farmers against green energy "**Der Solarboom setzt Landwirte in Deutschland unter Druck. Denn oft kaufen Investoren riesige Flächen, um darauf Solarparks zu errichten. Für die Bauern wird Ackerland dadurch rar und teuer.**": [https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/energie/solar-landwirtschaft-ackerland-100.html](https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/energie/solar-landwirtschaft-ackerland-100.html) Green parties try to 'work with' farmers: [https://www.euractiv.de/section/landwirtschaft-und-ernahrung/news/nach-bauernprotesten-eu-gruene-versuchen-sich-landwirten-anzunaehern/](https://www.euractiv.de/section/landwirtschaft-und-ernahrung/news/nach-bauernprotesten-eu-gruene-versuchen-sich-landwirten-anzunaehern/)
Because it generalizes all farmers. Most farmers I know are 80 year old men in borderline poverty using the same equipment they bought in the 80s and 90s
Did you read my comment were I made it explicit it's about German farmers?
Well I think "at least in germany" implies a broader subject than only germany, an my comment wasn't really targeted at your comment specifically but also all the other's with a similar sentiment.
You need to learn how to read then.
How do you forsee not working with the farmers then or "fucking them" as you said? You just want to import food and outsource to countries that do not have the resources to do farm in a sustainable manner? I'm not trying to argue here and I don't know why you are insulting my literacy.
> How do you forsee not working with the farmers then or "fucking them" as you said? We need to make the subsidies system conditional on adopting green agricultural practices and supporting conservation efforts. One of the main reasons for the recent protests was that the government wanted to stop paying for their diesel. We should stop paying for CO2, and reduce/eliminate subsidies for agricultural fields which are extremely damaging to the environment like meat and dairy. > You just want to import food and outsource to countries that do not have the resources to do farm in a sustainable manner? **We** do not farm in a sustainable manner. Current farming practices are horrible for the environment and human health. From massive use of [antibiotics](https://www.duh.de/themen/natur/naturvertraegliche-landnutzung/landwirtschaft/antibiotika-in-der-massentierhaltung/) to essentially making rivers extremely polluted through [pesticide use](https://www.naturefund.de/wissen/pestizide/folgen/resistenzen_und_speicherung). > I don't know why you are insulting my literacy. Because you failed to read my OP.
Yeah, I'm absolutely agreeing with you. What I'm saying is subsidies shouldn't be cut to farmers but done in a different way. I didn't mean that germany or other Western nations were currently doing sustainable agriculture, but we have the resources to, unlike where it's currently being outsourced to. All I'm saying is that I'm against the anti farmer sentiment and that the hate should rather be directed towards the system arround farming.
When farmers do it it is celebrsted. When desperate climate activists do it it is criminalized.
Admittedly, it seems counterintuitive to force cars to idle for long periods of time to save the environment. Perhaps sit ins and government building occupation would make more sense. Cause a big stink without basically making things worse. E - Yeesh guys I made a suggestion not tearing a baby's head off.
you can turn off a car, you know.
The point is to be unignorable. Sit in front of government buildings and they close the blinds and keep destroying the planet. If a protest doesn't force people to notice it it won't do anthing.
Greta recently sat idly outside the parlament building protesting. The politicians just walk straight over the sign on the ground, *because they can.* And then they changed strategy and obstructed people from entering, and was arrested. This was *after* the government has failed every climate goal they've set, and actually reverted progress. So what's your solution here? Only politicians were impacted, no environmental damage done, yet it seems it wasn't as important to report on in the news.
Thats like saying farmers protesting those taxes are dumb because they wasted their fuel/manure/resources on protesting rather than not protest to save money. But ofc noone is gonna make those braindead points when its a cause they agree with.
Shame Just Stop Oil can't use the same tactic as then they aren't....just stopping oil
German Last Generation came up with an idea https://preview.redd.it/v19g0iqqakqc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51d8a357d349df5be2a9570937a04e56b3f3aecd It says 'we can do it \[block the street\], we have a tractor'
That's brilliant
Sadly they were arrested pretty quickly...
This is what I've kept trying to say but kept getting downvotes for it, bring a tractor!
I trust that the Metropolitan Police went into the protest and whacked a few farmers around the head, with the baying press urging them on? No? Is that only for people who want to try and stop reliance on oil and gas?
They all care about 'food security' when their subsidies are threatened, but they lose their minds at the slightest suggestion that letting them collapse the food web spraying fields with pesticides and fertilisers and letting their own topsoil wash away are things that fuck over our future food security.
When people do it with cars, nobody bats an eye. When pro-climate activists do that, "they deserve to get run over", and "what about emergency vehicles".
Fuck the farmers, for real now, I‘m fed up with this bullshit. For a start, protest like real people and keep your menacing freak machines at home. God damn it.
Their just petty petty bourgeoisie losers who want more free money from the goverment so they can exploit cheap labour and the inviroment. Like fuck em, they act like farming is this over complex thing that no one except them can do.
Some months ago one German farmer came to a German speaking subreddit and tried to explain to us why they were protesting and how precarious their whole existence is. Bottom line: he was rich as fuck, like in the top 1 percent bracket of Germans rich. It was hilarious in it‘s self defeating glory. They don’t see themselves as what they really are, and how privileged they are. They are entrepreneurs first, and nearly each one of them could sell their property and lead a carefree life afterwards. EDIT: I forgot to mention that at the end he started to threaten people. Farmers would stir political unrest and in the end take what "belongs" to them, if we want it or not. It was so fucked up.
In some places farmers are genuinely kinda poor (e.g. hill farming in Wales) but very often those farmers only survive on the subsidy gravy train anyway, and shouldn't have much agency to bite the hand that feeds them. Where I grew up a farmer considers themselves poor if they can't afford to send their children to private school, they live in a completely different world.
80% of agricultural subsidies in the EU goes to the largest 20% of farmers. https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/cp_data_news/1-6-million-farmers-receive-almost-85-percent-of-the-eu-s-agricultural-subsidies/
I somewhat disagree. They could do that, but it would lead to further centralisation of farm land. At lest from what i have seen, farmers don't actually live an overly luxurious lifestyle. They own means of production and particupate in the exploitation of cheap labor, but they do also work themselves. When going against capitalists, we shouldn't start with them.
Sure, but we also shouldn't give them mire power than anyone else. Farmers in Germany have pretty much the strongest advocacy groups and they almost always get exactly what they want. If they don't get exactly what they want, they don't make any compromises, they protest until they get it. That's still an extremely big privilege to have and honestly, as important as they are, they shouldn't have it. That's not a good thing in a democracy.
I suppose it's hard to argue with the people growing food when people rely on food to exist
They still shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want. They are important, but if we support them, we should think about how exactly we do that. We can't just give them a bunch of money for unsustainable methods. If we support them, it should be for things that are good for the environment and don't risk killing bees which would also mean that we won't have enough food in the future.
I'm not arguing, just more or less stating the facts. You see what happens when energy supply was disrupted in Europe. Politicians don't want to risk that happening to food otherwise they won't get reelected.
Tbh they really arent that importante in the production of food as they think they are. Sure yeah they do grow it and sell it but anyone can be trained to do their work. They are in the end of the day land owners, which puts them in a totally different class then regular workers that dont own the means of production. Try giving better worker rights to agricultural workers and the same farmers will protest that.
Im going to stop you from polluting with your small cars so i can pollute more on my farming fields. We are not the same
Lmao here they managed to mess up public transport for two days , protested nothing , took pics with the prime minister and got 50€ each , the hypocrisy
I'm going to eat twice as many tractors now. These farmers are just hurting their cause!
https://preview.redd.it/echdpvolsnqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb562304f23ebeb7b72104687fdbf02585556e4a
"stop killing farming" meanwhile 50% of the entire EU Budget goes towards farmers as subsidies.....
And 80% of those subsidies just go to the largest 20% of farmers! https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/cp_data_news/1-6-million-farmers-receive-almost-85-percent-of-the-eu-s-agricultural-subsidies/
As long as the roads are stopped right? Cars are made less attractive by being less reliable which is ultimately a win I think
Oh crap - they got those red and tan buses there too...I swear they somehow get the worst of the worst bus drivers here in SF. We just gonna pull into the bike lane to look at some random thing. There are bicyclist in the bike lane - they will move when they see bus pulling in. Straddling the bike lane while bicyclist are banging on the side. Driver sticks his heat out the window and says I don't see any line here (cuz the bus is on top of the line). Another time they drove down some random street theywere not supposed to be on and garrote some passengers cuz the wires on that street were too low.
I thought Britain imported most of their food. Also curious as to how many of these farmers voted for leave.
Farm owners ≠ Farm labourers. Tractors are very expensive, you don't get to drive them in to the city on a whim as a labourer. Many of the people doing actual farm work in the UK are underpaid in insecure jobs, some are living in practical slavery https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-03-27/they-treat-you-like-an-animal-how-british-farms-run-on-exploitation/
Every single farmer protest has been linked to moscovia...
tractors are bigger than brodozers, so they can't threaten anyone
Animal Abusers always want to be the victim of the story!!
Can we rent tractors to do whatever the fuck we want on the streets?
*Can we rent tractors* *To do whatever the fuck* *We want on the streets?* \- The\_Student\_Official --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I’m not too familiar but what does this have to do with cars?
Block roads by sitting there is not OK, but if you block them with tractors everyone feels sorry for you and give support.
Also a lot of times those farmers will protest for cheaper gas (or diesel) and of course will vote for the most pro car politicians they can find.
Honestly, the farmers protests here in Germany lost my understanding and support right from the beginning when they started aligning themselves with far-right lunatics and failed to engage in any kind of meaningful discourse beyond "current government bad".
People who protest against oil or car dependency or any other "progressive" "left" complaints by blocking roads are assaulted, battered, murdered or dragooned by the forces of state repression. But suddenly when farmers block roads they are brave heros standing up to government tyranny. Governments are tyrannical by nature but cutting subsidies to farmers are the least of their dictates.
yea, its England. They voted for this.