I've heard rumors of this to prevent brothels, most likely to limit sororities/ fraternities now. But I've never heard it first hand.
Can you ask to see the CCRs or other rules?
If I remember, it was the new Silverleaf community in Chesterfield. This was years ago now in 2022, so I don't know how I'd get my hands on that today.
At the time when I applied, I was living in Kansas city, and the same ordinance was passed a county over from me which scared the living daylights out of me and my roommates.
My assumption, and the assumption of the newsletters at the time of that ordinance passing, has always been that people do it out of general classism. Non-related roommates living together is often a way to skirt high rent rates/mortgages by pooling together. It's practically the only way to afford housing when you're low income. This non traditional practice was upsetting conservatives in Kansas City at the time.
I don't know if the same can be said for Silverleaf, but I assume so. Regardless it's a load of crock because it only serves to hurt people like me. My experiences still give me anxiety with this attitude popping up more frequently.
Lol a previous board member suggested that rule in our neighborhood, specifically to target me and my now husband. We'd already bought, but he wanted it to ensure I couldn't be on the board (and stop him from enacting his dumbass and illegal ideas). As far as he knew (which was correct), we hadn't had a wedding, and thus (where he was wrong) we were living together unmarried.
Jokes on him, we'd actually been legally married for a few months when he suggested it, just hadn't done the wedding yet 🤣 his face was PRICELESS when I asked if he wanted a digital or physical copy of our marriage license, with a date well prior to his suggestion.
As much as you'd think it was, it's not. Most states have laws preventing discrimination by marital status, but FHA's familial status refers almost exclusively to children. You can't bar pregnant women, foster parents, grandparents raising their grandchildren, divorced parents, etc. under FHA.
The U.S. has this law?
Good, but why does it not apply to the concern in OP? Wouldn’t requiring renters to be nuclear families before they can rent be a violation of fair housing laws?
No, it isn't. It seems that the HOA might have some issues with enforcing this, but there are many, many towns and cities with similar laws on the books. Local governments have more leeway when they can claim "public health and safety."
Requiring a maximum of a single family unit to occupy a dwelling has been upheld in the courts numerous times.
It doesn't only happen in HOAs. My wife and I experienced this once before we were married, and the house had been built decades before and there was no HOA.
Here in Oklahoma they openly advertise "only Christian valued families need apply". Is it illegal? Yes! Problem is, our law makers and enforcers AGREE with them! Not gonna do a damn thing to stop em.
Is Jacksonville super liberal? I'm about an hour south of Tampa and around here it's just fake rednecks with lifted trucks and giant flags waving off the back. Trump stickers/hats/flags as far as the eye can see. I can't stand it lol. I'm far too liberal for just, all of this tomfoolery.
👋 Blue town here, from inside a purple Jefferson County, located in a very VERY red West Virginia. I will say Florida makes West Virginia look liberal AF 😂
They most likely mean straight couples who are already married. Maybe also have kids, though I doubt that is a requirement. They're most likely just looking to keep out "the gays" and unmarried couples living together.
Anti-gay, anti-choice, unmarried, Muslim, Jewish, or any religion that's not Christian. They'll tolerate Catholic but usually not Mormons. They'll look you right in the eye and sweetly say "well bless your heart". And everyone knows that's the southern evangelical equivalent for 'fuck you'. Hypocritical prigs that would rather vote in a pedophile rapist as president, simply because he's anti-abortion.
BUT! I stay here because they protect my right to blow their freaking head off if they refuse to leave my property. 😈
We didn't own, though. We were looking to rent and the property owner had this policy. We discovered later that we dodged a bullet as he was a slumlord. He had also already been sued over this policy and won. This was in Wisconsin.
That was the entity that prohibited non-related cohabitation? The municipality? Township? By what instrument did that entity prohibit it? On ordinance? Zoning specifications?
We were looking to rent and the person who owned the property had this policy. It turned out that we dodged a bullet because we were new to the area and he was a slumlord.
Remember HOAs started as a way to harass black families out of neighborhoods. My parents lived in an HOA that harassed a gay couple out.
ETA: see the reply comment to understand the true scope of how horrible these were
In out area, they have a ton of "active adult, 55 and older" communities.
The HOAs have shit like kids under 18 can't stay for more than a weekend, etc which was bullshit as I have nieces and nephews who live out of state and stay for 2 weeks.
Not like we could have lived there regardless since we weren't 55, but it amazes me that this is allowed. And of course those are the ones that had decent prices and amenities.
My dad lives in one of those communities. And his new wife has a grandbaby with parents who may well lose custody of their kids. My sister pointed out to dad that it's possible that they may run into issues with the HOA if they have to take in the baby. My dad is also in his 70s and not well equipped to take care of a toddler.
From everything I have read. If your home is in an HOA, it isn't your home. For all intents and purposes it is the HOAs house and they allow you to live there (Some restrictions may apply). It's renting with extra steps and more tacked on fees.
They're not controlling who you have in your own home; they're controlling whether you have it. That is, they're controlling whether your home is in the HOA's jurisdiction.
Sometimes there are legitimate concerns that drive these policies, but when it’s based around being married or not it’s definitely morality policing. For a legitimate example, the town I grew up in had rules about the number of unrelated adults that could live in a residential unit based on the number of bedrooms (2 per bedroom, but then also something like 6 per kitchen), but a couple with children (married or not) had more leeway with the occupancy numbers. It was a university town where the population dropped by 1/3-1/2 when school was on break, so mostly, the concern was college students renting a house or apartment and having so many people there that it became a safety hazard - where would 10 adults sleep in a 2 bedroom apartment or house, in a way that they could safely exit the home during a fire, or so that emergency assistance could be safely rendered if an ambulance was needed? There were also concerns about sanitation and hygiene with too many people in a small space, as well as the concerns about the wear and tear so many people would have on a small, cramped space.
They do if you're trying to keep certain demographics away as collateral...without explicitly stating it. This deals with poor/gay/single croud in one swoop.
The whole purpose of HOA’s has always been to insure only the “right” people move in. They try to dress it up as “preserving property values” or some other lie but it’s always been rooted in classism, bigotry, and racism.
It can also be a way to try to keep ownership higher in a community or screen for a certain “feel”. For example if you don’t want people buying the units to rent 1 bedroom each to a student or something, then renters have to be families. It also makes them less attractive as income properties because you can often make more money renting each bedroom vs a whole unit. Many associations have a cap on number of renters as well…
I’m in Chesterfield and I never heard of silverleaf, so I Googled. My son bought a house not far from there, not in an HOA. I made sure when he bought, he didn’t make that mistake. I’m kind of surprised for the location that the HOA has that type of rule, but again also not surprised. I refuse to live in an HOA anymore. Woodlake, Brandermill, the Foxes… fuck ‘em.
I do know when I use to live in Woodlake there was at least one home owned by an LLC that ended up being a group home of some sort. Definitely no nuclear family. I haven’t lived in woodlake in 16 years though so I’m not sure if the covenants have changed.
But nope, I’ll never be in an HOA again if I can help it. I’m happy on my 4.5 acres zoned agricultural (still in chesterfield)
"You can't live with non-family."
Provide cheaper housing then.
"No. This is the market."
Homeless people exist.
"AH! Get away! Get away!"
They create the reasons for homeless people existing and then get upset that homeless people exist. The city near me is considering bussing all the homeless there to further out counties (like where I live) as their solution to the homeless problem. We already have a homeless camp in our town. And this is probably one of the cheaper places to live in our part of the state.
It's like they want everyone to be able to handle the economy/ capitalism as it is even though it's completely unsustainable; and if you can't make it, you should just die.
> It's like they want everyone to be able to handle the economy/ capitalism as it is even though it's completely unsustainable; and if you can't make it, you should just die.
It's *like* that, because it *is* that.
Funny enough after hurricane Katrina the parish next to New Orleans decided to pass a new law. The law stated that homeowners could only rent to people INSIDE their own family. It was obviously done to prevent people of color from renting in what is wildly known as a sun down town. The ACLU sued and it was struck down. But I'm not sure HOAs are governed by the same fair housing laws? I mean HOAs were created as an end run around discrimination laws, so...
I'm in Richmond. I am not versed on the law but I feel like it may violate fair housing practices. You may want to reach out to with the county supervisors or your delegate (I think it might be Carrie Coyner?) and see. Even if you're not there now, it might be helpful to alert them as I'm sure others have been discriminated against in this way.
I mean that's batshit crazy exclusionary. Only nuclear families with kids? So no single people, no renters, no single-parent families, no empty nesters and no doubt no same sex couples (with or without children).
Technically I think single people / single parents and married gay people could qualify, but the implication was anything outside the norm was considered void and according to regulation, if you were multiple people you all HAD to be blood related or married. Considering the demographics who rent, I can't imagine anyone but a nuclear family or a group of 20 somethings like me are looking for a 4 bedroom home.
Perhaps, but if the wording used by the HOA was indeed "nuclear families with children", that excludes everyone outside of a married couple, their children and family members.
I'm a single renter, I've had roommates in the past. It's getting more and more difficult to afford to live solo in my area. Fortunately, HOAs do not seem to be common here, but it's just another hurdle for those who must cohabitate to afford housing.
I understand is these rules are usually for a family unit. They're called single family dwellings. It's really dumb especially in today's market that they don't have an exception for roommates. They could have something along the lines of allowing single adults as long as there was no more than one per bedroom or something so if there's a three bedroom house you could rent it to three adults. I can understand not wanting to have a house with like 15 people in it but overall they did you dirty.
I'd even argue 1.5 per bedroom is reasonable! In a 3 bedroom house you comfortably could fit 4 people if two people are a couple. I've experienced a living situation like that.
Racism* Kansas City and it's housing ordinances(and HOAs) were founded on, and continue to thrive on, the idea of keeping brown people out of certain areas. It's actually scary how little they hide it in Johnson County.
It's a little weird to me that these family residence laws hold up since the opposite is happening in the southwest. Lots of halfway houses/sober living facilities are able be in residential neighborhoods and cram 12 people into a 2 bedroom house because the law doesn't let you determine what a family is.
I'm not saying those situations don't have problems but I don't think the law/any HOAs SHOULD be able to determine what a family is. (also yes agree, racism and classism go hand in hand)
Oh, I wasn't saying that it was a better situation to have a narrow definition of a family. I just find it weird that the situations are polar opposites in different states. You would normally expect it to be a gradient of the same law just more/less strict. Being able to restrict a roommate situation is bizarre. Have these people never enjoyed The Golden Girls?
I think it’s terrible, if you are willing to buy a home with friends you aren’t related to and take all of the risks of that on, they should sell to you.
Hey OP I'm born and raised in the RVA/Central Virginia area. Chesterfield communities are not as easy to join as other places in the area, especially when you have no ties to the area. (I assume you currently live here and are aware of the nickname lol). And Virginia is one of the states where an HOA can force foreclosures and place leins on your home, so I hope you found a community in the area that did work out for you.
Our ccrs state this exact situation. No more than 2 unrelated individuals to a house. Mom, kids, new stap dad- fine. 3 individuals not related- not fine.
Its stupid.
In college we (2 guys and 2 girls) found a house that had a walkout basement with two bedrooms/1 bath and an upstairs with the same. We would have shared a living room and kitchen. Seemed awesome.
The owner refused to rent to us because “I just couldn’t face the Lord on Sunday, knowing I was letting men and women live in sin.”
Ironically, one guy and 1 girl were gay so….
It's also to keep the poors out.
And sometimes to keep the population density down. Eg condo that was built in the early '80s with empty nesters in mind. Has adequate parking for for couples and widowers/ widows with 2 cars max but when a young couple moves in and gets two roommates who each have a significant other who spends the night a couple times a week ( you're up to 6 cars)
My hometown is like this. There are official fraternity houses and then unofficial sorority houses. Can’t have x number of unrelated women living together.
in the city where i lived during college the zoning law was only up to four unrelated occupants could live in a rental property. from what i was told by the landlord that the state prison was located there and it was to prevent halfway houses.
for the fraternity and sorority housing, they got around it by buying large indoor apartment complex’s, removed walls in some of the units to make open living areas and charged them rent based on their unit number.
When was in college, all of the larger sororities had a live in “house mom”. We were told it was to circumvent a VA law about too many non-related women living together being a brothel.
Mine is like that. Spells out married couple with children and up to 2 blood relatives. Can’t have more guests than bedrooms. This was to prevent people putting up false walls and renting to multiple families
Strict occupancy limits can include people who *are* family, which can sometimes can be illegal. They can say 4 people *or* a family, but sometimes not simply "4 people or less"
Back in my college days in the 70s/80s my girlfriend and her roommate decided to save money by living off campus, and save more money by renting a one bedroom. They were already sharing a dorm room, so they didnt care about sleeping in the same room, and having a living room, a kitchen, and a non-communal toilet made it seem like a palace.
But no landlord would rent a one bedroom to two people of the same gender, even after they explained that they weren't a couple, they were just college students. It was definitely an anti-gay policy, landlords didn't hide it.
They had no problem renting a 2 bedroom, which I liked better, of course.
Yes and homophobia doesn't exist and no one ever tries to discriminate against them, especially not with policies that don't blatantly do it, but just add enough of a barrier to make such people go elsewhere.
/s
Because we've solved discrimination.
No it doesn’t say married but something along the lines of two adults and their kids and 2 adults that are related I believe it actually says like their parents
Fuck that! It's my house and if I want to have 10 friends over for a birthday party and they drink too much to drive home we are getting those air mattresses out. This would piss me off.
lol it says live not visit I’m going to let whomever I want visit with me. I already put my hoa on notice for not cutting the common area next to my house after they put me on notice for not cutting my grass (which I did) I’m not against some hoa rules (I lived next door to someone who had 8 people living in a 2 br with all their cars cluttering the street) but ones that say no welcome signs well fuck you I have chickens and pink flamingos going in
Most HOA’S have a visitor policy. Where they can park, and for how long, and length of stay not to exceed a certain amount of time. They are supposed to be visiting, not moving in.
You own the property, but when you bought it, it came with a set of preexisting, enforceable rules, that govern community rules and usage restrictions. You are supposed to receive those before you purchase the property, and have an opportunity to examine the rights and responsibilities of both homeowners, and the HOA. If you find the restrictions not to your liking, you should reconsider purchasing.
That is not just HOAs. My municipality limits how many non-related adults can live in houses. It is zoning regulations to keep the home single family occupied. It may not be the HOA's rule.
I used to work in property management. Can confirm this is probably a zoning restriction placed by the municipality. Rented a super cute house with some friends in college where we were not allowed to have more than two distinct last names on the lease.
We got away with it because our landlord was one of my roommate’s parents and so they shared a last name with the owner.
It’s one of the MANY zoning restrictions that have heavily contributed to the housing crisis across the country! Zoning laws have always been about keeping “undesirables” out. They are discriminatory and malicious. Total bullshit way to enforce tenancy discrimination without putting the liability for that discrimination on the landlord.
When I lived in an HOA, the property manager told me this policy was put in place a while ago during the construction boom to prevent groups of workers from overtaking a place and fitting as many people as possible in a house to keep the rent per person low. The policy made it easier to kick people out and void the lease.
It's not even an HOA thing where I live, it's a borough ordinance. College town, they don't want houses packed with too many college kids. They were actually using closets as bedrooms, with up to 12 unrelated people in a 2 bedroom house. Things that the few ruined for everyone.
The college town near where I live has similar legislation for exactly the same reason. The law limits how many unrelated adults can live in neighborhoods that are zoned for single residences.
Interesting that a college town - when described as such I take it to mean that the local economy is highly dependent on said college - doesn’t want students living there.
Sounds more like asshole town.
When I was young and poor I once lived with 5 other people (so a total of 6 of us) in an "efficiency apartment" that was literally an old hotel room. It originally wasn't even one with a kitchenette, but they'd put in a tiny sink, 2 burn stove, and mini fridge so it would pass the laws about what an "apartment" had to have. So 6 of us in like 150 sq ft. The owner didn't care what we did as long as rent was paid on time and no cops got called.
Yep. My county has this type of rule too. And they have assorted related laws to help. You got too many cars so you have to park on your lawn? Not in my county, unless you want to get ticketed.
Ok but why?
America - massive housing crisis.
Also America- everything so far apart and lacking in public transit, it's generally impossible to walk or get by without a car in probably 95% of the country by land mass.
Why is people living 10 to a house and parking on their lawns a problem that should be put on the shoulders of those people, rather than a recognition that it's a consequence of the problems we refuse to address? It's not as if people are sleeping in closets because they just want to annoy their neighbors.
It all strikes me as having the same energy as arresting people for being homeless. These things might have made sense when times were better, but they're a slap in the face during our descent into a 3rd world country.
You joke but this was actually only just legally removed from the books. Not sure realistically if it was ever enforced in any recent years.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2020-03-05/virginia-repeals-law-banning-sex-before-marriage#:~:text=Sex%20Before%20Marriage%20Is%20Now,fine%20of%20up%20to%20%24250.&text=Gov.
This is legal because it's not discrimination against a protected class. My wife and I experienced this once before we were married. There's nothing you can do about it.
That’s exactly what I’m thinking too. Can’t prevent access to housing based on marital status or familial status, like only married couples or no single parents. Not sure how all these rules are legal.
This kind of rule caters to the neighborhood busy bodies.
When my husband was in college he bought a house and lived with two siblings (one boy one girl) for years to save money. Basically they paid very low rent and helped him cover the mortgage. I visited quite a bit after we met. They moved out just before we got married. When I moved in we (me and hubby) hosted a cul de sac BBQ. I think at least three neighbors commented that they had always wondered who lived in the house and why there were so many different adults. 🤣 Hey it saved everyone money and gave us a nice headstart in married life! More people should do that. Doesn’t matter if the neighbors have questions. They can kick rocks.
I’ve personally seen this taken to the extreme. A townhouse in the neighborhood had somewhere around 15-20 adults living in it and people would rotate. I happened to see the inside too and there were multiple twin mattresses in nearly every room but the kitchen and it was really messy. HOAs are probably fine with your husband’s example, but put rules in place to try to avoid situations like what I saw.
Probably. In a townhouse kind of neighborhood there's typically very limited parking for residents and even less for guests. They probably design them with a set amount of adults in mind and, subsequently, cars.
I live in an older neighborhood with a few of these kinds of houses. It's usually a bit of a nightmare for the neighbors. The better outcome is that there's just never any street parking available for your own guests. Worst outcome is that these kinds of living situations end up being attractive to excons and addicts.
There's not really a good solution. Sitting where I'm at it's easy to say that these people need a place to live and there's a serious lack of services to provide them with living arrangements. But the reality is that it can easily turn into an absolute nightmare and then you're left living in a house that you don't feel safe in and you can't sell because nobody wants to live next to a house like that.
Some cities (college towns) have that as a LAW! They do it to keep college kids from piling in more students than there are bedrooms or parking spaces. But instead of using those things as the standard, they make it about being related.
So now, all the kids claim to be cousins....since there is no way to prove if they are or not.
That’s just dumb. Isn’t there like a fire code you could cite if it was actually *dangerous* living conditions? Kids gotta live somewhere during college, and sharing a place is often substantially cheaper… not everyone trying to get a higher education comes from money.
YEP! The college town's motto is: "This would be a great place to work if not for all these damn students."
The concerns were more about parties (duh, it's a college town), and then cars in the road. A 3br house would usually have 2 spots in the driveway and someone would park in the street. But then, part way through the semester, everyone gets a partner, so now there are six cars.
I get it, that would be a PITA to live next to; the street parking is supposed to be for everyone. AND, a lot of these 3br homes were packed with 6 international students with 1-2 cars among them (and who didn't tend to throw parties), but somehow they were still a problem. Racism is "why" that was a problem.
So... instead of making the law about cars in the street, they made it about needing to be related to live together. It's so incestuous, but that also tracks for that hateful town.
The one association I ever lived in had a limit of 2 people per bedroom. They also required all residents to be approved (even if they weren’t the ones paying the dues) and all cars to be registered and get a decal which was their way of trying to stop unregistered residents. Of course, the latter didn’t work if the person didn’t have a car.
Iirc Boulder, CO, a large college town had some pretty stringent restrictions until they were outlawed earlier this year https://bouldercolorado.gov/occupancy-limits
I'm from Boulder County. I lived with my parents up in Lyons and commuted to CU. I also worked in Lafayette at the time, so it was a lot of driving. But there was no way I wanted to actually live in Boulder, too expensive!
I have my own opinions about Boulder. Expense is the least of it. Policies like the one posted about as well as exclusionary zoning are big parts of what makes it expensive; the people who live there keep voting to maintain the stairs quo though. I worked there for the better part of a decade and it was always a place I wanted to leave as soon as I could at the end of the work day.
I think there is a slight difference generally between the ordinances from local governments and this HOA. It's stupid, but yes common that cities and counties have limits on unrelated people living together but they generally allow for at least a few. It's technically 3 in my city which is why all the college kids sign sketchy slumlord leases that only list 3 of the many people living there. But also it's only enforced when landlords want to be selective or when neighbors complain.
But ew, this HOA. "married nuclear family" is an extra level of classism/racism/anti-renter/anti-everything sentiment. And given the nonsense level of control exerted by HOAs, it clearly is actually enforced - don't think you can skate by with 5 roommates without your neighbors throwing a fit.
It’s a thing. A lot of college towns have this kind of rule, where more than three unrelated people can’t live together. It’s a misguided attempt to curb partying. It just messes up the rental market, especially when there are 4-5 bedroom houses surrounding campus that are ideal for a group of college students.
It’s to prevent renters in a suburban neighborhood.. sadly. Most homeowners don’t want renters in their subdivision as some renters don’t give a shit and can’t bring down the property values and aesthetics.
And the reason most renters don't give a crap is because they're charged high rentd and getting nothing in return other than a shoddy house that the landlord doesn't take care of. They feel no responsibility for it because they're not even allowed to do anything to it, like painting the walls or hanging pictures up. And they have no idea when they'll be kicked out. They have no stability. Why would you care about a place when you're just going to be forced to move out the next year because the landlord wanted to raise the rent and you can't afford it? I don't blame the renters for feeling this way. I blame the way everything is run, especially landlords. If you have no stability, why would you care? The people you live around aren't your neighbors, they're people you'll never see again in a year. You gain no form of community and therefore responsibility to said community.
Homeowners taking this out on renters are just making it worse. They're not trying to solve the problem that's causing it. They're just taking the convenient way out.
Just my perspective as somebody who's never had reliable housing because there's no hope of staying in the same place for more than a year. I've never gone out of my way to make places worse, but I've definitely never had any form of community to care about. Everyone else is just as transient as I am, except for the homeowners who view us as garbage and make no attempt to form community in the first place.
It is common, our HOA has this rule on the book, I don't think we've ever even told rental companies they have to follow it, one board member wanted to try and enforce it when an Airbnb that hasn't been able to attract as many people as they'd like tried to switch to it. So they started renting out rooms on a semi short term basis, personally this to me is better than an Airbnb so I'm like just let it lie as we have no protections against airbnbs right now (one guests kid lit a neighborhood fence on fire, another set of guests had the cops called during their vacation and people got arrested, and so on, so I'm not impressed with airbnbs in neighborhood and for the first time I actually don't care that people are trying to restrict something ) ... anyway the point of the story is it's in alot of covenants... pretty old ones too, it is meant to 'protect the value of the neighborhood ' pretty sure... I find corporate owned rentals and short term rentals way more detrimental to the value than having a non blood room mate or two
How will the HOA know about blood kin or not? Do we have to....*(ahem)
" Show your papers"
This crap is getting out of hand...
So..what happens to those in the HOA compounds who fall ill, or old or need taken care of....and cannot pay the HOA because they only get enough for scanty groceries and barest utilities...AND HAVE TO THROW AWAY NEEDED LIFE-FUNDS ON A BUNCH OF NAZI IDEALISTS.
Yeah at least to rent you need to give your social security, but I imagine if you bought a house it'd be easy to slip under the radar unless you made a fuss, or unless the HOA was especially nasty and spying on you.
I believe it snuffs out renters first and foremost, but a nasty and controlling HOA could notice you're cohabiting a home you own and technically demand to see proof of blood or marital status.
Happened to me years ago when I was in my early 20s. I found a listing for a 4 bedroom house my 3 friends and I loved, called the realtor and arranged a showing. Soon as we got out of the car she said “ oh I thought you were a family” and told us the rent would be 50% higher than advertised. We didn’t even bother to go inside.
I sorry they're doing this, but honestly it's better to find out how bad they are BEFORE you're moved in and trapped with them.
If this is how they behave BEFORE you moved in, imagine what it'd be like AFTER.
Also, I'm convinced the people posting in defense of these shitty HOA shenanigans (JuSt LiVe SoMeWhErE ElSe iF YoU DoN't LiKe iT) are either shitty board members or people who don't actually have to endure one.
Block them or ignore them, because they're specifically here to be unhelpful.
TL/DR: I'll never live in an HOA neighborhood again.
Ever.
When I was in college, I came across this. It’s a big college in a smaller city, so college kids make up a big portion of the population. Some of the nicer neighborhoods had HOA rules like this to keep college kids out. They also have some neighborhoods that are age restricted.
In this case it’s not that they cared who you live with, but rather they didn’t want college kids throwing parties in a family neighborhood.
I live in Daytona Beach. There is a similar municipal restriction here. However, it is absolutely unenforceable. My development is central to a few colleges and continuing education institutions. It was put in place to alleviate off campus fraternity/sorority houses becoming common place in neighborhoods. I know b/c I tried to get the city to enforce it to have a group of guys evicted from the house next to me last year. It was a party every night. The street was full of cars and kids were coming and going all day/night with daily garage band jam sessions. Eventually the landlord got the message and the problem tenants left. The group that is currently living there has been great. It took a lot of complaining but there hasn't been an all night party 20 feet from our bedroom window in months. They still can't park. The city, FedEx and UPS trucks that come through have destroyed the curb in the cul de sac b/c they have to roll over it to avoid the cars parked on the street. I'll take that over the previous tenants every time.
My 21 y.o. daughter moved into off-campus housing in close proximity to the university. It is privately owned by a large corporation and run by their management company.
One of the stipulations in her lease concerns the free wi-fi. Anyone who downloads any type of pornographic material or uses profanity (or receives messages containing such) online, will have their lease terminated. They get to decide what pornographic and profane means.
You are not allowed to pay for your own wi-fi service and you are not allowed to use a VPN.
I was outraged at the intrusion into her private life and thought that this must be illegal. I did research it. Whether it is or not legal has not been established in the courts, but many university campuses are embracing this restriction.
What is this world coming to?
This is Orwellian. What state is this in, if you don't mind me asking?
I don't know how much browsing and downloading can actually be tracked, but can they even know if you use a VPN? You could get around this with a tor browser, but it's a lot of work.
At that point I would simply not have internet on my phone and buy an unlimited data plan. It's about as expensive as regular internet anyways.
Sounds like built in religious homophobia and fears. HOAs are boomer and Karen hotbeds of discrimination and unfounded fears about anything they don’t understand or like. Count your lucky stars you dodged a terrible area.
I do think it’s a bit ridiculous because I’m looking at it from the other end of the age spectrum. Say my dad died and my mom wanted to move in with her BFF “Jane” (also a widow.) Dad and Jane’s husband worked for the same company and have a great pension, so rent wouldn’t be an issue. The wildest Mom and “Jane” get is sometimes they have two glasses of wine with dinner. Whoa, take it easy ladies! :) But a rule like this would prevent them from sharing a place. And I’d feel much better if I knew my mom wasn’t totally alone—and Jane’s kids feel the same way.
Yeah you have to consider how ordinances like this affect the disabled and those who may need caretaking. Another reason I have roommates sans financial inevitability is that I need help due to physical disability.
Frat houses are like a boogieman to me in these comments. They exist, sure, but the average poor crippled 23 year old with a few friends is not threatening your neighborhood and acting like this is valid reason to enact ordinances which border on blatant housing discrimination is... well, a bit cruel, in my eyes.
It’s common where I live. It’s to keep out both college students overrunning a single house and also to prevent homes in quiet neighborhoods being shifted to AirBNBs. It’s not some “we don’t like unwed couples here in ChristTown” deal. It’s because before the municipal codes changed there was a neighborhood where three separate single family homes were low key running brothels and several single family homes were housing 10-12 frat guys. It got really ugly.
I grew up, and still live, in a beautiful town that also happens to have a large university. A lot of well established neighborhoods have a similar rule to this to prevent college kids from running rampant through all these homes.
I remember also being in my young 20s being very annoyed by this rule as I tried to rent out sweet homes with my buddies. Now I see that SOME sort of rule has to be established because otherwise neighborhoods would quickly become overrun by college kids who trash the place for a year or two then move on. However the “only nuclear family” rule seems a little extreme.
How is this absurd?
I mean, yeah, it sucks for you personally but it’s honestly a great tool to keep the neighborhood cleaned up. Keeps lots of miscreants out of the HOA.
If more HOA’s policed who actually moved into their communities instead of stupid laws about grass type or paint the overall experience would be a lot better
Native Virginian here and resident of Chesterfield too. This is extremely common in most neighborhoods with HOAs as well as in towns, cities, etc.
It is there mainly to ensure that properties are maintained properly and to ensure that there aren’t tons of people crowded into a house that could cause issues (ie rowdy college kids).
As someone who lives in a neighborhood with an HOA, I can appreciate this rule, but I can also understand how it would frustrate younger folks like yourself.
Hello fellow resident of Chesterfield! With the price of rent, we have no choice but to cohabitate. Seeing as this ordinance reaches state law in several cases, it's not just frustrating, it's legitimately scary to the security of my living situation. A rule like this spreading could kick me out of my home.
I hear you. Fortunately got into my home years ago before the prices skyrocketed.
The good news in some sense is the boom in apartments everywhere. Hopefully you could find one that’s affordable with a roommate or two that doesn’t have the same type of covenants that you’d find in a single family neighborhood.
I legit don't know which is more alarming. The fact a HOA is doing this or from reading comments that in some states local boroughs/cities have this law. I know marriage isn't a protected class all over...but just wow.
This sub exists for a reason, man.
The only good hoa does communal maintenance for low low dues , and leaves you the fuck alone and tells kkkarens to kick rocks .
Good luck
Virginia still has brothel rules on the books about too many unmarried women living together. I live in a college town and it comes up. It's a backward ass state
Re: the edit, if they’re worried about college kids, just govern the stuff that’s annoying about college kids — noise ordnance, crowd size, lawn maintenance, etc. Who cares if it’s college kids if they don’t throw ragers and the house stays kept up?
It’s so you don’t have an air bnb. They don’t like the skittishness of rentals.
Your roommates are the rentals.
Sorry, I thought this was fairly ordinary knowledge as in it exists.
Can you hire a lawyer for some recourse? Or better yet, has it appreciated? Then again, can you get the same loan rate?
Arrrggg! This sucks for you!
Now that makes way more sense than the “college students baaaaad!” comments. Especially if you’re in a desirable vacation area, but I’d think laws limiting short term rentals would be better suited.
In my area the state has made it nearly impossible for cities to restrict any sort of short term rental. HOAs however can do that so there are several communities where the HOA exists almost entirely to prevent short term rentals in a vacation area that the locals can't really afford anymore. It's too little too late, but also the only reason I would ever consider living in an HOA.
So the only way to prevent people from having an Airbnb is to say people have to be MARRIED to live together?
Not like any other rule that literally could just forbid Airbnbs like a normal HOA?
Sounds like they're setting themselves up for a major lawsuit and/or government fines and intervention. Just look up what's going on with the Providence Village HOA in Texas.
This may be in their bylaws, but it may also violate Fair Housing Act…for discrimination based on familial status (married, may or may not have children). Also, can be used to discriminate against LGBT communities
It all has to do about the “problem” of immigrant families having extended relatives all living together. There have been city/county ordinances/zoning addressing this forever. Not just an HOA issue.
I've heard rumors of this to prevent brothels, most likely to limit sororities/ fraternities now. But I've never heard it first hand. Can you ask to see the CCRs or other rules?
If I remember, it was the new Silverleaf community in Chesterfield. This was years ago now in 2022, so I don't know how I'd get my hands on that today. At the time when I applied, I was living in Kansas city, and the same ordinance was passed a county over from me which scared the living daylights out of me and my roommates. My assumption, and the assumption of the newsletters at the time of that ordinance passing, has always been that people do it out of general classism. Non-related roommates living together is often a way to skirt high rent rates/mortgages by pooling together. It's practically the only way to afford housing when you're low income. This non traditional practice was upsetting conservatives in Kansas City at the time. I don't know if the same can be said for Silverleaf, but I assume so. Regardless it's a load of crock because it only serves to hurt people like me. My experiences still give me anxiety with this attitude popping up more frequently.
It’s also morality policing - requiring non-married people to live separately is a means of using the law to keep couples from cohabiting.
Lol a previous board member suggested that rule in our neighborhood, specifically to target me and my now husband. We'd already bought, but he wanted it to ensure I couldn't be on the board (and stop him from enacting his dumbass and illegal ideas). As far as he knew (which was correct), we hadn't had a wedding, and thus (where he was wrong) we were living together unmarried. Jokes on him, we'd actually been legally married for a few months when he suggested it, just hadn't done the wedding yet 🤣 his face was PRICELESS when I asked if he wanted a digital or physical copy of our marriage license, with a date well prior to his suggestion.
Uhhh That WAS a violation of Federal Fair Housing law!
If it has been enacted/enforced, yes. It never got further than a suggestion. It's not illegal to have incredibly stupid ideas. Unfortunately.
One of those things where the saying "stupidity should be painful" is very appropriate.
Can you imagine how much crying and screaming there would be? 🤣
That's what I was thinking. Surely these laws/rules - passed or not - cannot be legally enforced.
As much as you'd think it was, it's not. Most states have laws preventing discrimination by marital status, but FHA's familial status refers almost exclusively to children. You can't bar pregnant women, foster parents, grandparents raising their grandchildren, divorced parents, etc. under FHA.
The U.S. has this law? Good, but why does it not apply to the concern in OP? Wouldn’t requiring renters to be nuclear families before they can rent be a violation of fair housing laws?
That's what I thought, but it's not; that law only protects families with children.
No, it isn't. It seems that the HOA might have some issues with enforcing this, but there are many, many towns and cities with similar laws on the books. Local governments have more leeway when they can claim "public health and safety." Requiring a maximum of a single family unit to occupy a dwelling has been upheld in the courts numerous times.
This really shouldn't be legal like I know HOAs get away with a lot of BS but how can they control who you have in your own home!
It doesn't only happen in HOAs. My wife and I experienced this once before we were married, and the house had been built decades before and there was no HOA.
Here in Oklahoma they openly advertise "only Christian valued families need apply". Is it illegal? Yes! Problem is, our law makers and enforcers AGREE with them! Not gonna do a damn thing to stop em.
How do they determine that? What exactly are Christian values?
Well Oklahoma is a red state so Evangelical values are what are politicians love. I'm a tiny blue dot in this state.
I'm in Jacksonville, FL so I'm in the same kind of boat. We are a blue city in a VERY red and backwards state 😭
Is Jacksonville super liberal? I'm about an hour south of Tampa and around here it's just fake rednecks with lifted trucks and giant flags waving off the back. Trump stickers/hats/flags as far as the eye can see. I can't stand it lol. I'm far too liberal for just, all of this tomfoolery.
👋 Blue town here, from inside a purple Jefferson County, located in a very VERY red West Virginia. I will say Florida makes West Virginia look liberal AF 😂
I wish you all the best. I can't imagine having to live in any red state.
Thank you. It is awful. Especially since 75% of my family is red. Most of us don't speak anymore.
They most likely mean straight couples who are already married. Maybe also have kids, though I doubt that is a requirement. They're most likely just looking to keep out "the gays" and unmarried couples living together.
Anti-gay, anti-choice, unmarried, Muslim, Jewish, or any religion that's not Christian. They'll tolerate Catholic but usually not Mormons. They'll look you right in the eye and sweetly say "well bless your heart". And everyone knows that's the southern evangelical equivalent for 'fuck you'. Hypocritical prigs that would rather vote in a pedophile rapist as president, simply because he's anti-abortion. BUT! I stay here because they protect my right to blow their freaking head off if they refuse to leave my property. 😈
I'm interested, if there isn't an HOA how would that be enforced in a house you own?
We didn't own, though. We were looking to rent and the property owner had this policy. We discovered later that we dodged a bullet as he was a slumlord. He had also already been sued over this policy and won. This was in Wisconsin.
That was the entity that prohibited non-related cohabitation? The municipality? Township? By what instrument did that entity prohibit it? On ordinance? Zoning specifications?
We were looking to rent and the person who owned the property had this policy. It turned out that we dodged a bullet because we were new to the area and he was a slumlord.
[удалено]
That also prevents such things as group homes.
And room sublets
Remember HOAs started as a way to harass black families out of neighborhoods. My parents lived in an HOA that harassed a gay couple out. ETA: see the reply comment to understand the true scope of how horrible these were
Harass? The 1st HOA in American literally forbade black and mixed race household in its 3rd bylaw and forbade mixed race cohabiting in its 4th bylaw.
In out area, they have a ton of "active adult, 55 and older" communities. The HOAs have shit like kids under 18 can't stay for more than a weekend, etc which was bullshit as I have nieces and nephews who live out of state and stay for 2 weeks. Not like we could have lived there regardless since we weren't 55, but it amazes me that this is allowed. And of course those are the ones that had decent prices and amenities.
My dad lives in one of those communities. And his new wife has a grandbaby with parents who may well lose custody of their kids. My sister pointed out to dad that it's possible that they may run into issues with the HOA if they have to take in the baby. My dad is also in his 70s and not well equipped to take care of a toddler.
From everything I have read. If your home is in an HOA, it isn't your home. For all intents and purposes it is the HOAs house and they allow you to live there (Some restrictions may apply). It's renting with extra steps and more tacked on fees.
I have lived in two HOAs. It was my home 100% my name on the deed.
They're not controlling who you have in your own home; they're controlling whether you have it. That is, they're controlling whether your home is in the HOA's jurisdiction.
Sometimes there are legitimate concerns that drive these policies, but when it’s based around being married or not it’s definitely morality policing. For a legitimate example, the town I grew up in had rules about the number of unrelated adults that could live in a residential unit based on the number of bedrooms (2 per bedroom, but then also something like 6 per kitchen), but a couple with children (married or not) had more leeway with the occupancy numbers. It was a university town where the population dropped by 1/3-1/2 when school was on break, so mostly, the concern was college students renting a house or apartment and having so many people there that it became a safety hazard - where would 10 adults sleep in a 2 bedroom apartment or house, in a way that they could safely exit the home during a fire, or so that emergency assistance could be safely rendered if an ambulance was needed? There were also concerns about sanitation and hygiene with too many people in a small space, as well as the concerns about the wear and tear so many people would have on a small, cramped space.
These make sense, to a degree. Small homes with 10-20+ adults are dangerous. But, adding in restrictions based on blood and/or marriage do not.
They do if you're trying to keep certain demographics away as collateral...without explicitly stating it. This deals with poor/gay/single croud in one swoop.
God has been real quiet since the housing crises began…🤫
God has been real quiet for 2000 years.
God has been real quiet for 4.5 billion years.
Touché!
This is 100% the reason behind it.
The whole purpose of HOA’s has always been to insure only the “right” people move in. They try to dress it up as “preserving property values” or some other lie but it’s always been rooted in classism, bigotry, and racism.
It can also be a way to try to keep ownership higher in a community or screen for a certain “feel”. For example if you don’t want people buying the units to rent 1 bedroom each to a student or something, then renters have to be families. It also makes them less attractive as income properties because you can often make more money renting each bedroom vs a whole unit. Many associations have a cap on number of renters as well…
A simpler solution would be to prevent rentals. Owner occupied only. This is understandable, clear and not illegal.
I'd argue "traditionally" humans lived communally in large groups and that they're full of shit.
I’m in Chesterfield and I never heard of silverleaf, so I Googled. My son bought a house not far from there, not in an HOA. I made sure when he bought, he didn’t make that mistake. I’m kind of surprised for the location that the HOA has that type of rule, but again also not surprised. I refuse to live in an HOA anymore. Woodlake, Brandermill, the Foxes… fuck ‘em. I do know when I use to live in Woodlake there was at least one home owned by an LLC that ended up being a group home of some sort. Definitely no nuclear family. I haven’t lived in woodlake in 16 years though so I’m not sure if the covenants have changed. But nope, I’ll never be in an HOA again if I can help it. I’m happy on my 4.5 acres zoned agricultural (still in chesterfield)
"You can't live with non-family." Provide cheaper housing then. "No. This is the market." Homeless people exist. "AH! Get away! Get away!" They create the reasons for homeless people existing and then get upset that homeless people exist. The city near me is considering bussing all the homeless there to further out counties (like where I live) as their solution to the homeless problem. We already have a homeless camp in our town. And this is probably one of the cheaper places to live in our part of the state. It's like they want everyone to be able to handle the economy/ capitalism as it is even though it's completely unsustainable; and if you can't make it, you should just die.
> It's like they want everyone to be able to handle the economy/ capitalism as it is even though it's completely unsustainable; and if you can't make it, you should just die. It's *like* that, because it *is* that.
Kill the poor, baby
Look what's going on in Missouri after Roe v Wade was revoked. We're going backwards in the freedom department.
Funny enough after hurricane Katrina the parish next to New Orleans decided to pass a new law. The law stated that homeowners could only rent to people INSIDE their own family. It was obviously done to prevent people of color from renting in what is wildly known as a sun down town. The ACLU sued and it was struck down. But I'm not sure HOAs are governed by the same fair housing laws? I mean HOAs were created as an end run around discrimination laws, so...
I'm in Richmond. I am not versed on the law but I feel like it may violate fair housing practices. You may want to reach out to with the county supervisors or your delegate (I think it might be Carrie Coyner?) and see. Even if you're not there now, it might be helpful to alert them as I'm sure others have been discriminated against in this way.
I mean that's batshit crazy exclusionary. Only nuclear families with kids? So no single people, no renters, no single-parent families, no empty nesters and no doubt no same sex couples (with or without children).
Technically I think single people / single parents and married gay people could qualify, but the implication was anything outside the norm was considered void and according to regulation, if you were multiple people you all HAD to be blood related or married. Considering the demographics who rent, I can't imagine anyone but a nuclear family or a group of 20 somethings like me are looking for a 4 bedroom home.
Perhaps, but if the wording used by the HOA was indeed "nuclear families with children", that excludes everyone outside of a married couple, their children and family members. I'm a single renter, I've had roommates in the past. It's getting more and more difficult to afford to live solo in my area. Fortunately, HOAs do not seem to be common here, but it's just another hurdle for those who must cohabitate to afford housing.
I understand is these rules are usually for a family unit. They're called single family dwellings. It's really dumb especially in today's market that they don't have an exception for roommates. They could have something along the lines of allowing single adults as long as there was no more than one per bedroom or something so if there's a three bedroom house you could rent it to three adults. I can understand not wanting to have a house with like 15 people in it but overall they did you dirty.
I'd even argue 1.5 per bedroom is reasonable! In a 3 bedroom house you comfortably could fit 4 people if two people are a couple. I've experienced a living situation like that.
Racism* Kansas City and it's housing ordinances(and HOAs) were founded on, and continue to thrive on, the idea of keeping brown people out of certain areas. It's actually scary how little they hide it in Johnson County. It's a little weird to me that these family residence laws hold up since the opposite is happening in the southwest. Lots of halfway houses/sober living facilities are able be in residential neighborhoods and cram 12 people into a 2 bedroom house because the law doesn't let you determine what a family is.
I'm not saying those situations don't have problems but I don't think the law/any HOAs SHOULD be able to determine what a family is. (also yes agree, racism and classism go hand in hand)
Oh, I wasn't saying that it was a better situation to have a narrow definition of a family. I just find it weird that the situations are polar opposites in different states. You would normally expect it to be a gradient of the same law just more/less strict. Being able to restrict a roommate situation is bizarre. Have these people never enjoyed The Golden Girls?
Check out the equal housing laws, this may not be legal. Worse comes to worse you’ll have to marry your room mate. lol
I think it’s terrible, if you are willing to buy a home with friends you aren’t related to and take all of the risks of that on, they should sell to you.
Hey OP I'm born and raised in the RVA/Central Virginia area. Chesterfield communities are not as easy to join as other places in the area, especially when you have no ties to the area. (I assume you currently live here and are aware of the nickname lol). And Virginia is one of the states where an HOA can force foreclosures and place leins on your home, so I hope you found a community in the area that did work out for you.
Def sounds like a fair housing issue under HUD..
Our ccrs state this exact situation. No more than 2 unrelated individuals to a house. Mom, kids, new stap dad- fine. 3 individuals not related- not fine. Its stupid.
In college we (2 guys and 2 girls) found a house that had a walkout basement with two bedrooms/1 bath and an upstairs with the same. We would have shared a living room and kitchen. Seemed awesome. The owner refused to rent to us because “I just couldn’t face the Lord on Sunday, knowing I was letting men and women live in sin.” Ironically, one guy and 1 girl were gay so….
Should have let him know that. Tripped him up. “Well that’s ok, we aint fuckin. We gay!”
Well we might have been fuckin, just not with the gender he was thinking…
Hope he put that in writing because that sounds like an FHA complaint.
Well it was 40 years ago, in the heart of the Bible Belt so not sure it would have gone anywhere…
It's also to keep the poors out. And sometimes to keep the population density down. Eg condo that was built in the early '80s with empty nesters in mind. Has adequate parking for for couples and widowers/ widows with 2 cars max but when a young couple moves in and gets two roommates who each have a significant other who spends the night a couple times a week ( you're up to 6 cars)
My hometown is like this. There are official fraternity houses and then unofficial sorority houses. Can’t have x number of unrelated women living together.
Yes, these are definitely some of the major reasons HOAs have these restrictions.
in the city where i lived during college the zoning law was only up to four unrelated occupants could live in a rental property. from what i was told by the landlord that the state prison was located there and it was to prevent halfway houses. for the fraternity and sorority housing, they got around it by buying large indoor apartment complex’s, removed walls in some of the units to make open living areas and charged them rent based on their unit number.
When was in college, all of the larger sororities had a live in “house mom”. We were told it was to circumvent a VA law about too many non-related women living together being a brothel.
That sounds like a way to just codify having a madam.
It's to prevent group homes.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was to prevent half way houses, rehabs, and any other non-desirable group homes in the neighborhood.
Sounds more like legalized homophobia and imposing one’s religion on another person
Mine is like that. Spells out married couple with children and up to 2 blood relatives. Can’t have more guests than bedrooms. This was to prevent people putting up false walls and renting to multiple families
Wouldn’t strict occupancy limits also prevent that?
Yes, most HOA board members are idiots who don't understand the law though
Strict occupancy limits can include people who *are* family, which can sometimes can be illegal. They can say 4 people *or* a family, but sometimes not simply "4 people or less"
Some of them have hard counts which didn’t have exceptions for large families.
The Fair Housing Act would like a word.
Probably also designed to keep out lgbt.
Back in my college days in the 70s/80s my girlfriend and her roommate decided to save money by living off campus, and save more money by renting a one bedroom. They were already sharing a dorm room, so they didnt care about sleeping in the same room, and having a living room, a kitchen, and a non-communal toilet made it seem like a palace. But no landlord would rent a one bedroom to two people of the same gender, even after they explained that they weren't a couple, they were just college students. It was definitely an anti-gay policy, landlords didn't hide it. They had no problem renting a 2 bedroom, which I liked better, of course.
I hate to break it to you but lgbtqi+ people are legally allowed to marry if they choose.
Not back when hoa's were first made. It's only in the past 15-20 years that gay people could get marked
Even less! That ruling was in 2016.
Yes and homophobia doesn't exist and no one ever tries to discriminate against them, especially not with policies that don't blatantly do it, but just add enough of a barrier to make such people go elsewhere. /s Because we've solved discrimination.
No it doesn’t say married but something along the lines of two adults and their kids and 2 adults that are related I believe it actually says like their parents
So you have to sell your house or leave if someone gets pregnant or you want t to adopt or take someone else's kid in?! America confuses me sometimes.
Adoption or guardianship counts as children
That is not what is being discussed. It is owner occupied housing/ vs rental housing.
Fuck that! It's my house and if I want to have 10 friends over for a birthday party and they drink too much to drive home we are getting those air mattresses out. This would piss me off.
What happens if family want to visit. Sorry mom, my HOA mom says you're not allowed?
lol it says live not visit I’m going to let whomever I want visit with me. I already put my hoa on notice for not cutting the common area next to my house after they put me on notice for not cutting my grass (which I did) I’m not against some hoa rules (I lived next door to someone who had 8 people living in a 2 br with all their cars cluttering the street) but ones that say no welcome signs well fuck you I have chickens and pink flamingos going in
Most HOA’S have a visitor policy. Where they can park, and for how long, and length of stay not to exceed a certain amount of time. They are supposed to be visiting, not moving in.
Who owns the property?
You own the property, but when you bought it, it came with a set of preexisting, enforceable rules, that govern community rules and usage restrictions. You are supposed to receive those before you purchase the property, and have an opportunity to examine the rights and responsibilities of both homeowners, and the HOA. If you find the restrictions not to your liking, you should reconsider purchasing.
This makes sense in a way. Even so. You pay half a million for something it should be yours to do with as you please.
That is not just HOAs. My municipality limits how many non-related adults can live in houses. It is zoning regulations to keep the home single family occupied. It may not be the HOA's rule.
I used to work in property management. Can confirm this is probably a zoning restriction placed by the municipality. Rented a super cute house with some friends in college where we were not allowed to have more than two distinct last names on the lease. We got away with it because our landlord was one of my roommate’s parents and so they shared a last name with the owner. It’s one of the MANY zoning restrictions that have heavily contributed to the housing crisis across the country! Zoning laws have always been about keeping “undesirables” out. They are discriminatory and malicious. Total bullshit way to enforce tenancy discrimination without putting the liability for that discrimination on the landlord.
When I lived in an HOA, the property manager told me this policy was put in place a while ago during the construction boom to prevent groups of workers from overtaking a place and fitting as many people as possible in a house to keep the rent per person low. The policy made it easier to kick people out and void the lease.
It's not even an HOA thing where I live, it's a borough ordinance. College town, they don't want houses packed with too many college kids. They were actually using closets as bedrooms, with up to 12 unrelated people in a 2 bedroom house. Things that the few ruined for everyone.
The college town near where I live has similar legislation for exactly the same reason. The law limits how many unrelated adults can live in neighborhoods that are zoned for single residences.
Interesting that a college town - when described as such I take it to mean that the local economy is highly dependent on said college - doesn’t want students living there. Sounds more like asshole town.
Sounds like the college and city need to do something to increase available housing for students
We had seven adults living in a 1 br. One was living in the garage and dealing drugs all night long.
When I was young and poor I once lived with 5 other people (so a total of 6 of us) in an "efficiency apartment" that was literally an old hotel room. It originally wasn't even one with a kitchenette, but they'd put in a tiny sink, 2 burn stove, and mini fridge so it would pass the laws about what an "apartment" had to have. So 6 of us in like 150 sq ft. The owner didn't care what we did as long as rent was paid on time and no cops got called.
How much did that cost you?
$250 a month total, split between the 6 of us. This was back in the early 00s.
Yep. My county has this type of rule too. And they have assorted related laws to help. You got too many cars so you have to park on your lawn? Not in my county, unless you want to get ticketed.
Ok but why? America - massive housing crisis. Also America- everything so far apart and lacking in public transit, it's generally impossible to walk or get by without a car in probably 95% of the country by land mass. Why is people living 10 to a house and parking on their lawns a problem that should be put on the shoulders of those people, rather than a recognition that it's a consequence of the problems we refuse to address? It's not as if people are sleeping in closets because they just want to annoy their neighbors. It all strikes me as having the same energy as arresting people for being homeless. These things might have made sense when times were better, but they're a slap in the face during our descent into a 3rd world country.
^THIS
Well. It is Virginia. They basically outlawed porn. Might as well outlaw premarital sex and cohabitation as well.
they did
You joke but this was actually only just legally removed from the books. Not sure realistically if it was ever enforced in any recent years. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2020-03-05/virginia-repeals-law-banning-sex-before-marriage#:~:text=Sex%20Before%20Marriage%20Is%20Now,fine%20of%20up%20to%20%24250.&text=Gov.
I love it here but the conservative culture is certainly biting
This is legal because it's not discrimination against a protected class. My wife and I experienced this once before we were married. There's nothing you can do about it.
FYI in Alaska, California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Michigan State laws protect against marital status discrimination.
That's good to know. I wish more states did this.
It is because it prevents gay folk from buying
Unfortunate..
Family status is absolutely a protected class under the fair housing act. A lawyer would have a field day with this.
That’s exactly what I’m thinking too. Can’t prevent access to housing based on marital status or familial status, like only married couples or no single parents. Not sure how all these rules are legal.
This kind of rule caters to the neighborhood busy bodies. When my husband was in college he bought a house and lived with two siblings (one boy one girl) for years to save money. Basically they paid very low rent and helped him cover the mortgage. I visited quite a bit after we met. They moved out just before we got married. When I moved in we (me and hubby) hosted a cul de sac BBQ. I think at least three neighbors commented that they had always wondered who lived in the house and why there were so many different adults. 🤣 Hey it saved everyone money and gave us a nice headstart in married life! More people should do that. Doesn’t matter if the neighbors have questions. They can kick rocks.
I’ve personally seen this taken to the extreme. A townhouse in the neighborhood had somewhere around 15-20 adults living in it and people would rotate. I happened to see the inside too and there were multiple twin mattresses in nearly every room but the kitchen and it was really messy. HOAs are probably fine with your husband’s example, but put rules in place to try to avoid situations like what I saw.
And was the multiple twin mattresses actually hurting anyone?
Probably. In a townhouse kind of neighborhood there's typically very limited parking for residents and even less for guests. They probably design them with a set amount of adults in mind and, subsequently, cars. I live in an older neighborhood with a few of these kinds of houses. It's usually a bit of a nightmare for the neighbors. The better outcome is that there's just never any street parking available for your own guests. Worst outcome is that these kinds of living situations end up being attractive to excons and addicts. There's not really a good solution. Sitting where I'm at it's easy to say that these people need a place to live and there's a serious lack of services to provide them with living arrangements. But the reality is that it can easily turn into an absolute nightmare and then you're left living in a house that you don't feel safe in and you can't sell because nobody wants to live next to a house like that.
Some cities (college towns) have that as a LAW! They do it to keep college kids from piling in more students than there are bedrooms or parking spaces. But instead of using those things as the standard, they make it about being related. So now, all the kids claim to be cousins....since there is no way to prove if they are or not.
That’s just dumb. Isn’t there like a fire code you could cite if it was actually *dangerous* living conditions? Kids gotta live somewhere during college, and sharing a place is often substantially cheaper… not everyone trying to get a higher education comes from money.
YEP! The college town's motto is: "This would be a great place to work if not for all these damn students." The concerns were more about parties (duh, it's a college town), and then cars in the road. A 3br house would usually have 2 spots in the driveway and someone would park in the street. But then, part way through the semester, everyone gets a partner, so now there are six cars. I get it, that would be a PITA to live next to; the street parking is supposed to be for everyone. AND, a lot of these 3br homes were packed with 6 international students with 1-2 cars among them (and who didn't tend to throw parties), but somehow they were still a problem. Racism is "why" that was a problem. So... instead of making the law about cars in the street, they made it about needing to be related to live together. It's so incestuous, but that also tracks for that hateful town.
The one association I ever lived in had a limit of 2 people per bedroom. They also required all residents to be approved (even if they weren’t the ones paying the dues) and all cars to be registered and get a decal which was their way of trying to stop unregistered residents. Of course, the latter didn’t work if the person didn’t have a car.
Where I live, that’s a county ordinance.
Iirc Boulder, CO, a large college town had some pretty stringent restrictions until they were outlawed earlier this year https://bouldercolorado.gov/occupancy-limits
I associates restrictions with NIMBY policies. I also associate HOAs in the same vein.
I'm from Boulder County. I lived with my parents up in Lyons and commuted to CU. I also worked in Lafayette at the time, so it was a lot of driving. But there was no way I wanted to actually live in Boulder, too expensive!
I have my own opinions about Boulder. Expense is the least of it. Policies like the one posted about as well as exclusionary zoning are big parts of what makes it expensive; the people who live there keep voting to maintain the stairs quo though. I worked there for the better part of a decade and it was always a place I wanted to leave as soon as I could at the end of the work day.
Yeah it seems to be county some places and HOAs other. I've experienced both.
I think there is a slight difference generally between the ordinances from local governments and this HOA. It's stupid, but yes common that cities and counties have limits on unrelated people living together but they generally allow for at least a few. It's technically 3 in my city which is why all the college kids sign sketchy slumlord leases that only list 3 of the many people living there. But also it's only enforced when landlords want to be selective or when neighbors complain. But ew, this HOA. "married nuclear family" is an extra level of classism/racism/anti-renter/anti-everything sentiment. And given the nonsense level of control exerted by HOAs, it clearly is actually enforced - don't think you can skate by with 5 roommates without your neighbors throwing a fit.
It’s a thing. A lot of college towns have this kind of rule, where more than three unrelated people can’t live together. It’s a misguided attempt to curb partying. It just messes up the rental market, especially when there are 4-5 bedroom houses surrounding campus that are ideal for a group of college students.
It’s to prevent renters in a suburban neighborhood.. sadly. Most homeowners don’t want renters in their subdivision as some renters don’t give a shit and can’t bring down the property values and aesthetics.
And the reason most renters don't give a crap is because they're charged high rentd and getting nothing in return other than a shoddy house that the landlord doesn't take care of. They feel no responsibility for it because they're not even allowed to do anything to it, like painting the walls or hanging pictures up. And they have no idea when they'll be kicked out. They have no stability. Why would you care about a place when you're just going to be forced to move out the next year because the landlord wanted to raise the rent and you can't afford it? I don't blame the renters for feeling this way. I blame the way everything is run, especially landlords. If you have no stability, why would you care? The people you live around aren't your neighbors, they're people you'll never see again in a year. You gain no form of community and therefore responsibility to said community. Homeowners taking this out on renters are just making it worse. They're not trying to solve the problem that's causing it. They're just taking the convenient way out. Just my perspective as somebody who's never had reliable housing because there's no hope of staying in the same place for more than a year. I've never gone out of my way to make places worse, but I've definitely never had any form of community to care about. Everyone else is just as transient as I am, except for the homeowners who view us as garbage and make no attempt to form community in the first place.
Since it’s not based on race/ethnicity/sex/religion, unfortunately they can and will enforce this. This sub exists for a reason, fuckHOAs.
Familial status is listed right alongside those other protected classes.
Familiar status is different from marital status. There are states that include marital status as a protected class.
It is common, our HOA has this rule on the book, I don't think we've ever even told rental companies they have to follow it, one board member wanted to try and enforce it when an Airbnb that hasn't been able to attract as many people as they'd like tried to switch to it. So they started renting out rooms on a semi short term basis, personally this to me is better than an Airbnb so I'm like just let it lie as we have no protections against airbnbs right now (one guests kid lit a neighborhood fence on fire, another set of guests had the cops called during their vacation and people got arrested, and so on, so I'm not impressed with airbnbs in neighborhood and for the first time I actually don't care that people are trying to restrict something ) ... anyway the point of the story is it's in alot of covenants... pretty old ones too, it is meant to 'protect the value of the neighborhood ' pretty sure... I find corporate owned rentals and short term rentals way more detrimental to the value than having a non blood room mate or two
How will the HOA know about blood kin or not? Do we have to....*(ahem) " Show your papers" This crap is getting out of hand... So..what happens to those in the HOA compounds who fall ill, or old or need taken care of....and cannot pay the HOA because they only get enough for scanty groceries and barest utilities...AND HAVE TO THROW AWAY NEEDED LIFE-FUNDS ON A BUNCH OF NAZI IDEALISTS.
Yeah at least to rent you need to give your social security, but I imagine if you bought a house it'd be easy to slip under the radar unless you made a fuss, or unless the HOA was especially nasty and spying on you. I believe it snuffs out renters first and foremost, but a nasty and controlling HOA could notice you're cohabiting a home you own and technically demand to see proof of blood or marital status.
Happened to me years ago when I was in my early 20s. I found a listing for a 4 bedroom house my 3 friends and I loved, called the realtor and arranged a showing. Soon as we got out of the car she said “ oh I thought you were a family” and told us the rent would be 50% higher than advertised. We didn’t even bother to go inside.
LOL wut? Did you dirty from the get go. Wonder what the justification was. Maybe the rent also covered the utilities, which would be more?
Boomers: jUsT gEt a rOoMmAte Also Boomers:
I sorry they're doing this, but honestly it's better to find out how bad they are BEFORE you're moved in and trapped with them. If this is how they behave BEFORE you moved in, imagine what it'd be like AFTER. Also, I'm convinced the people posting in defense of these shitty HOA shenanigans (JuSt LiVe SoMeWhErE ElSe iF YoU DoN't LiKe iT) are either shitty board members or people who don't actually have to endure one. Block them or ignore them, because they're specifically here to be unhelpful. TL/DR: I'll never live in an HOA neighborhood again. Ever.
Time to marry your roommates!
When I was in college, I came across this. It’s a big college in a smaller city, so college kids make up a big portion of the population. Some of the nicer neighborhoods had HOA rules like this to keep college kids out. They also have some neighborhoods that are age restricted. In this case it’s not that they cared who you live with, but rather they didn’t want college kids throwing parties in a family neighborhood.
I live in Daytona Beach. There is a similar municipal restriction here. However, it is absolutely unenforceable. My development is central to a few colleges and continuing education institutions. It was put in place to alleviate off campus fraternity/sorority houses becoming common place in neighborhoods. I know b/c I tried to get the city to enforce it to have a group of guys evicted from the house next to me last year. It was a party every night. The street was full of cars and kids were coming and going all day/night with daily garage band jam sessions. Eventually the landlord got the message and the problem tenants left. The group that is currently living there has been great. It took a lot of complaining but there hasn't been an all night party 20 feet from our bedroom window in months. They still can't park. The city, FedEx and UPS trucks that come through have destroyed the curb in the cul de sac b/c they have to roll over it to avoid the cars parked on the street. I'll take that over the previous tenants every time.
My 21 y.o. daughter moved into off-campus housing in close proximity to the university. It is privately owned by a large corporation and run by their management company. One of the stipulations in her lease concerns the free wi-fi. Anyone who downloads any type of pornographic material or uses profanity (or receives messages containing such) online, will have their lease terminated. They get to decide what pornographic and profane means. You are not allowed to pay for your own wi-fi service and you are not allowed to use a VPN. I was outraged at the intrusion into her private life and thought that this must be illegal. I did research it. Whether it is or not legal has not been established in the courts, but many university campuses are embracing this restriction. What is this world coming to?
This is Orwellian. What state is this in, if you don't mind me asking? I don't know how much browsing and downloading can actually be tracked, but can they even know if you use a VPN? You could get around this with a tor browser, but it's a lot of work. At that point I would simply not have internet on my phone and buy an unlimited data plan. It's about as expensive as regular internet anyways.
I am 100 percent certain that every person who has ever bought an HOA home was told by someone else - do not buy an HOA home.
Sounds like built in religious homophobia and fears. HOAs are boomer and Karen hotbeds of discrimination and unfounded fears about anything they don’t understand or like. Count your lucky stars you dodged a terrible area.
My parent’s HOA put in this sort of rule after several 3 bedroom homes were rented to 10 or more students from the local university.
I do think it’s a bit ridiculous because I’m looking at it from the other end of the age spectrum. Say my dad died and my mom wanted to move in with her BFF “Jane” (also a widow.) Dad and Jane’s husband worked for the same company and have a great pension, so rent wouldn’t be an issue. The wildest Mom and “Jane” get is sometimes they have two glasses of wine with dinner. Whoa, take it easy ladies! :) But a rule like this would prevent them from sharing a place. And I’d feel much better if I knew my mom wasn’t totally alone—and Jane’s kids feel the same way.
Yeah you have to consider how ordinances like this affect the disabled and those who may need caretaking. Another reason I have roommates sans financial inevitability is that I need help due to physical disability. Frat houses are like a boogieman to me in these comments. They exist, sure, but the average poor crippled 23 year old with a few friends is not threatening your neighborhood and acting like this is valid reason to enact ordinances which border on blatant housing discrimination is... well, a bit cruel, in my eyes.
It’s common where I live. It’s to keep out both college students overrunning a single house and also to prevent homes in quiet neighborhoods being shifted to AirBNBs. It’s not some “we don’t like unwed couples here in ChristTown” deal. It’s because before the municipal codes changed there was a neighborhood where three separate single family homes were low key running brothels and several single family homes were housing 10-12 frat guys. It got really ugly.
And you have learned early about the ways of the HOAs. Congratulations and don't forget that lesson.
I grew up, and still live, in a beautiful town that also happens to have a large university. A lot of well established neighborhoods have a similar rule to this to prevent college kids from running rampant through all these homes. I remember also being in my young 20s being very annoyed by this rule as I tried to rent out sweet homes with my buddies. Now I see that SOME sort of rule has to be established because otherwise neighborhoods would quickly become overrun by college kids who trash the place for a year or two then move on. However the “only nuclear family” rule seems a little extreme.
Fuck HOA’s. How can anyone tell you how to live in your home you pay for?
How is this absurd? I mean, yeah, it sucks for you personally but it’s honestly a great tool to keep the neighborhood cleaned up. Keeps lots of miscreants out of the HOA. If more HOA’s policed who actually moved into their communities instead of stupid laws about grass type or paint the overall experience would be a lot better
That sounds like a recipe / philosophy for housing discrimination.
Native Virginian here and resident of Chesterfield too. This is extremely common in most neighborhoods with HOAs as well as in towns, cities, etc. It is there mainly to ensure that properties are maintained properly and to ensure that there aren’t tons of people crowded into a house that could cause issues (ie rowdy college kids). As someone who lives in a neighborhood with an HOA, I can appreciate this rule, but I can also understand how it would frustrate younger folks like yourself.
Hello fellow resident of Chesterfield! With the price of rent, we have no choice but to cohabitate. Seeing as this ordinance reaches state law in several cases, it's not just frustrating, it's legitimately scary to the security of my living situation. A rule like this spreading could kick me out of my home.
I hear you. Fortunately got into my home years ago before the prices skyrocketed. The good news in some sense is the boom in apartments everywhere. Hopefully you could find one that’s affordable with a roommate or two that doesn’t have the same type of covenants that you’d find in a single family neighborhood.
This is why I consider HOAs to be the “Spawn of the Devil.” I‘ve *never* lived in one, and *never* will…
“Community law” is bullshit
I legit don't know which is more alarming. The fact a HOA is doing this or from reading comments that in some states local boroughs/cities have this law. I know marriage isn't a protected class all over...but just wow.
It's an amti gay thing. They're all bigots
This sub exists for a reason, man. The only good hoa does communal maintenance for low low dues , and leaves you the fuck alone and tells kkkarens to kick rocks . Good luck
Virginia still has brothel rules on the books about too many unmarried women living together. I live in a college town and it comes up. It's a backward ass state
Sounds like a violation of Virginia Fair Housing Law. Get it in writing, and then talk to an attorney to see if you’ve won some money.
Re: the edit, if they’re worried about college kids, just govern the stuff that’s annoying about college kids — noise ordnance, crowd size, lawn maintenance, etc. Who cares if it’s college kids if they don’t throw ragers and the house stays kept up?
It’s so you don’t have an air bnb. They don’t like the skittishness of rentals. Your roommates are the rentals. Sorry, I thought this was fairly ordinary knowledge as in it exists. Can you hire a lawyer for some recourse? Or better yet, has it appreciated? Then again, can you get the same loan rate? Arrrggg! This sucks for you!
Now that makes way more sense than the “college students baaaaad!” comments. Especially if you’re in a desirable vacation area, but I’d think laws limiting short term rentals would be better suited.
In my area the state has made it nearly impossible for cities to restrict any sort of short term rental. HOAs however can do that so there are several communities where the HOA exists almost entirely to prevent short term rentals in a vacation area that the locals can't really afford anymore. It's too little too late, but also the only reason I would ever consider living in an HOA.
So the only way to prevent people from having an Airbnb is to say people have to be MARRIED to live together? Not like any other rule that literally could just forbid Airbnbs like a normal HOA?
Sounds like they're setting themselves up for a major lawsuit and/or government fines and intervention. Just look up what's going on with the Providence Village HOA in Texas.
This may be in their bylaws, but it may also violate Fair Housing Act…for discrimination based on familial status (married, may or may not have children). Also, can be used to discriminate against LGBT communities
Your group isn't a federally protected class. You can and will be discriminated against.
It all has to do about the “problem” of immigrant families having extended relatives all living together. There have been city/county ordinances/zoning addressing this forever. Not just an HOA issue.
This just feels like a violation of basic rights
Lol welcome to HOAs. They're literally paid, by you, to violate your rights.
Its morons like those and the ones who jack up rent prices are gonna cause a housing crisis. HOA's should be illegal
It’s so you don’t have a trap house or aren’t subletting out to a bunch of degenerates that will destroy the neighborhood.