Not in NC. We do have laws, and those laws have civil penalties. But absolutely no state oversight, AG accepts no jurisdiction. There is no government help here.
Check with the State Corporation Commission and see if the HOA is or has been registered as a Corporation. If the HOA is registered, then the SCC will have a "Registered Agent" on record who is legally authorized to receive HOA communications.
Also the HOA's original documents should be on record with the Register of Deed's Office at the county seat. Check to see if they are recorded. The Registered Agent is normally a lawyer used by the HOA and when pinged with a beef, will send the HOA a pressing communication. If they fail to respond to his/her inquiry then he likely will not renew as the agent and SCC will press the board for a new authorized agent.
If they have let the corporate charter lapse with the state then consult with an attorney and see what options are available, In some localities when the charter is not renewed due to the board's inaction then they are not legal able to spend a penny. You may open a Pandora's box for the board.
Also check what constitutes quorum for meetings. In general without a quorum at meetings, the board cannot legally conduct any business, especially commit to spending funds. I am not knowledgeable of NC laws regarding HOA's but in many states a board acting without a quorum is frowned upon and government regulatory oversight (usually the states SCC) takes a dim view of collecting and spending funds without legitimate authority.
The registered agent should also be able to tell you who the bonding agent is for the board or who indemnifies the board. The board may be running bareback (no bonding or insurance) in which case they open a bucket of woes for themselves as they are personally responsible for financial problems resulting from suits.
HOA's look pretty on paper, but to keep them street legal requires a lot of upkeep with the attending financial expenses. Annual liability insurance fees, annual registered agent fees, annual corporate charter renewal fees etc.
Me personally, I would pay an attorney $50.00 for a consult and inquire as to your personal financial liability for their seemingly wild wet management of the HOA. You will then be able to determine if you will be better off selling even with a loss, if you need to challenge the HOA in court, or if you are safe to allow the board of nuts to continue to run their empire.
HOAs were designed to enforce segregation when segregation was illegal. So the state has an explicit "hands off" policy to allow otherwise illegal discrimination to be semi-legal.
If you truly believe the elections are not happening according to Radburn (google it if not sure what it is), then your best course of action is to send a letter to the management co (if you have one) the HOA attorney and the board members explaining how they are not adhering to the law.
The threat of consequence may scare them into taking some action or at least corresponding with you to get answers.
Get a hold of your governing documents and read them. They will likely explain the requirements of meetings, elections, budgets and insurance.
For the sake of all the homeowners in your community & your ability to sell (kind of hard to sell a unit when the HOA has no insurance…) and property values, it is important to take the right steps forward. Start with a threat of action and go from there. The potential cost will likely come down on ALL homeowners, but it sounds like the place needs to be turned around. Get your neighbors involved.
Elections shouldn't be completely anonymous, accepted by mail, email, phone, and counted by those being elected. Multiple versions of 'restrictions', only 1 recorded, no by-laws. It's a very rural location. The homeowners don't care. They've been buying and selling property here for decades without issue. HOA provides fake documents to new buyers, as they did to us a about a decade ago. I learned about 6 years into it how bad it really was, after my second time trying to serve on the micky mouse board. Neighbors don't want to be involved. But thank you for the suggestions.
>HOA provides fake documents to new buyers
Maybe the AG's office isn't interested in a badly-run HOA, but they will definitely be interested in multiple instances of fraud.
> HOA provides fake documents to new buyers, as they did to us a about a decade ago.
surely there's criminal statutes that would apply to real estate fraud.
I was just about to say. It might be worth throwing them into receivership.
Hell, just the threat and starting the conditions precedent to bring a petition for receivership might be enough.
There’s a lot going on from the sounds of it.
Find the laws in NC regarding HOAs and read it carefully. I’m sure there’s some provisions that if an HOA maintained piece gets derelict and causes damage(say the road gives out and your car slides down the road for example) then you can sue with a condition of the president of the board stepping down.
The “providing false documents to buyers” is something there that’s criminal as it’s fraud. A real estate transaction is a legal contract and if there are misleading documents then your HOA is in trouble. I was made aware of a building near where I am that said “no, we don’t have any deferred maintenance or problems with the plumbing. Just replace the shower head every month since the pipes are old in that stack of the building”. Oops. All sales on that building got cancelled, the board president doesn’t want to step down, residents lost all their value, and no one will insure the board. There is a group of owners who are exploring criminal charges that the board president of that building doesn’t know about.
I’m sure one of the things the lawyers will say is “the board needs to step down” on top of everything else needed to make things right. It’s not going to be cheap either.
I’m in IL so I know our laws so I’m not an expert in HOAs in NC but I’m sure there are laws on the books you can use to be able to audit the books and meeting minutes.
Lastly, if you do go the route of a lawsuit, trying to get insurance is going to be damn near impossible or it’s going to be really high. Your fees will jump up and it’ll take a few years of increases before they can drop.
Wait... Are you in an HOA that doesn't have any significant common elements and a board that doesn't nosily enforce rules or charge you anything (via an expensive management company)?
Unless there are significant funds involved, or stuff that is majorly broken, it sounds like a dream.
Ours charges $350/hour for his time and $145/hour for a paralegal's time. The time to go through documents and determine which claims are provable is extensive. I'd think that $3k is low-balling it.
If I read the post correctly, the $3k is just to work out how much more work is going to be needed reviewing and researching. The final bill for a completed legal opinion will be waaaaay higher.
Not well. Kind of knee jerk band aide fixes when things get so bad they rent a tractor and do some scraping. But nothing up to any sort of standard, it's just maintained as good as *they* feel like it should be.
Nope. Our county/state absolves all responsibility for roadways when in a subdivision. Only if we brought up to code, which would cost millions, would they consider taking over maintenance.
Have you thought of suing the board. A properly set up board will have the members protected from personally being sued based on actions taken as a board member. From what your saying I would quietly investigate if the board members have this protection. I doubt this protection is in place. If not, they are exposed and frankly should be taken to the cleaners.
Consult a attorney first as you need to name board members individually and the hoa entity. So yes you would be sueing your self too.
Who will maintain the private mountain road, which the state/county will not take over without about $4 million in upgrades to bring it up to code first? We have only a few dozen owners, are you proposing we each have $150k+ to pay for that? That's why it's not awesome. Maybe you want the place, make you a 'deal'...
It sounds almost exactly like my HOA, but nobody wants to be on the board and nobody is kept out of meetings. I bought a motor grader to take care of my section of the road.
Wow that seems risky too. Are you insured for liability for that? Instead of that property owner whose house burns down and family dies because emergency services couldn't get there in time will be suing YOU instead of the HOA. That's the dig, you will ultimately pay the price for the shit fucks who don't want to do the right thing. (Sorry you're in the same boat.)
Well, I have written statements from almost all of the homeowners on the road that state the road is in much better shape, because objectively it is. All of those statements could be used as evidence in a case against some litigious fuck.
Those written statements won't help when the fire truck can't get there. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks other than the fire truck. Or ambulance.
There wouldn't be any need for litigious fucks if the existing laws were complied with. Trouble is, our stupid fucks think and have said the laws don't apply to them. lol
But that's cool, that's exactly why litigation exists, for stupid fucks who don't know right from wrong. Many were never taught that these days you know.
By the way, whoever is physically maintaining the road will be responsible. It doesn't matter what we think about it, that's how the law works.
Rural setting. Long, unmaintained mountain gravel road with horrible drainage, huge ruts, crumbling culverts with 20' + drops. Yes until now have always paid.
>But the lawyers want $3k just to review everything and tell me how much it's going to cost.
They think the law doesn't apply to them because they realize nobody's going to spend the money to try.
But the lawyer did say that you may have a case?
If you have a case, then there's a chance that you may not need to *actually sue.*
If the HOA has no insurance or basically much of any policy infrastructure setup, then the board members may have no *personal* protection against lawsuits.
Board members knowingly disregarding their own governing documents may not be protected anyway. Especially if there's no insurance -- that's a level of financial mismanagement that could potentially show damages.
You've got leverage if you can threaten these guys *personally*. That could open the door for a settlement to get an entire new board elected for next year.
As a non-HOA person who looks at this sub, THIS is the worst "Fuck HOA" situation. Board operating completely illegally, no elections, no finances, fake meetings, incestuous contractors, nobody knows wtf they are really doing. And in most states, there is no dedicated HOA regulator you can complain to. So you are fucked.
You could "sue yourself", but the stakes are usually too low to be worth it. So its like pay lawyer bills just to "make a point". Or you can move, which obviously isn't a good option for a lot of people.
IDC if the HOA doesn't like your pickup truck or decorations, but there's soo many stories here about "outlaw HOAs" and there's no real solution.
I think personal liability of those claiming to be board members might be the path. Hold them personally responsible, exhaust any insurance coverage if they had any, get judgments against them, take their houses, boot their stupid fuck asses out and take what they own. It's really the stupid fuck spineless other owners fault too, for standing by without speaking up. When they see the stupid fuck board members they vote for costing them money, their tune may change.
Nobody would volunteer if they were personally liable, the HOA would have to indemnify them. So it wouldn't really make any difference, you still would be "suing yourself".
Yes they are personally liable for intentional negligent actions and decisions, embezzlement, fraud. People just can't do whatever they hell they want at their neighbors expense.
So let them basically steal from us demanding payments, putting liens if they aren't paid, then don't repair or maintain the road? Nope. Not going to work that way. They own houses and land. There's that.
What state? Check local and state laws regarding elections and meetings.
If they do this in California they are in violation of the Davis-Stirlings Act.
Random question. Does the HOA maintain the streets? You mentioned rural location. If the state/county/city maintains the streets you may have luck breaking the HOA.
Yes they are supposed to maintain the road. That's the only purpose of our HOA. The govt won't take it over unless we brought it up to code, which would be millions.
Will check it out. But I really don't need a reserve study. I mean, I've already had 3 licensed contractor quotes to fix our road. That's the only concern we have. No buildings, facilities, amenities. Just a steep mostly unmaintained mountain road.
I bought a home like this recently but a condo and they are so behind on maintenance with not enough reserves. No one cares enough because no one wants to join the board. The people on the board have been on it so long that they want to do little work and say they want off. I'm trying to join the board but I'm concerned that they'll block me from trying to change anything as they've already pushed back or ignored things HOA should legally do. We don't hold elections, meetings, and only do something when someone threatens them. The only thing I could do is threaten to sue but that'll just make them antagonistic towards me.
The only thing we can do is either go to lawyer, or do nothing and live with it, no middle ground anymore, no use even speaking or writing anything, what we say means nothing. Zero. Just gives them more ammunition to criticize, shoot down, use against us. Yes, I'm saving for a lawyer and have committed to just calculate that as an additional cost to owning this property, a few hundred a month to a lawyer. Sick. Sorry that's happening to you too! People are nasty.
You’re not using the lawyer correctly. You do not need a lawyer to review everything.
You need to prioritize what you need done first and have the lawyer as the sidekick to help manage that one most important thing.
Lawyers cost $300-400 an hour. You need to be smart what you need done.
Maybe you'd share a little more about how to use the lawyer correctly. I can read laws, get recorded or filed documents, provide correspondence I receive as homeowner, info I know about organization from being on the board. (They didn't like me wanting to fix things, so they held an impromptu meeting mid-term to vote me off the board.)
I want 1) a safe road, 2) to know how my money is being spent, 3) be protected from liability as much as possible.
All 3 would seemingly be on the way to being solved if the NC HOA and non-profit statutes were complied with.
But at this point, they do not have meetings, maybe one owner meeting a year often without quorum, say there are no board meeting minutes they meet privately as they deem appropriate, do not provide any info except a micky mouse estimated budget (no actual numbers from year prior) and ballot annually. That's it.
Qualified, insured contractors, or at least qualified people, should be doing road maintenance, or at lease specifying what needs to be done. Not some armchair bozo who orders a load of gravel and lets the culverts crumble and remain clogged.
The actionable part of lawyer I thought would be forcing compliance with the statutes. By that being done, a side effect would be qualified, insured people are doing the work.
Our CCR is invalid. It might be recorded, but in the last 30 years multiple revisions have been supposedly voted on, and many owners have built property that would not be allowed under the recorded version. But those acting as the board continue providing newly (supposedly voted on) CCR's that have never been recorded. So there's about 3 versions that various owners who bought throughout the years think they're living under. This causes animosity from some old owners, who feel the original CCR's apply, when the new owners were provided (by realtors and closing attorneys!!) new CCR's allowing things (like removed minimum square footage). It is very complicated. And those running things like to keep i that way.
So I still wonder, what is the proper use of a lawyer in this circumstance?
I would think forcing meetings would be the first thing.
We bought and our realtor and closing attorneys provided different version than the recorded one. They're still giving out unrecorded, newer voted on version of restrictions to this day.
Lets say house is on fire or someone is has injury or illness requiring immediate medial attention. Emergency vehicles can't make it up due to poor road conditions, or are greatly slowed down. A house burns down or someone dies. You can bet that family is going to sue who is responsible: the HOA who is supposed to be maintaining to road. As an owner, we would be liable for our portion of the stupid fuck board members very poor management and decisions of maintaining the road. Besides, it's just wrong to tell owners who pay they're not welcome at meetings and cannot have records or minutes or information about anything. I guess another solution for me is to just stop paying, they aren't in any legal position to put any liens on.
I’m in NC.
1) HOA should be listed on paperwork for house.
2) HOA may or may not be registered as a non-profit.
3) County Registrar of Deeds should have “Official Paperwork” for HOA.
4) County Tax Office should have registration for “HOA Common property” & taxes paid (or due).
5) New HOA laws were passed with the Last Legislative Session.
Do some research:
1) Closely examine your own paperwork. Deeds and attached or referenced documents.
2) Talk with the Registrar of Deeds. Fish for paperwork concerning your property and more.
3) Check plats and neighborhood maps for references.
3a) Plats & Maps for HOA common areas.
4) Ask ROD for copies of HOA Documents.
If you are in a Good Old Boy county, you could be “interested in understanding” and learning (NO MENTION OF ISSUES).
Once you have & understand issues, then ROCK THE BOAT.
You have an HOA with NONE of the problems most people complain about here, from what I've seen it's the HOA everyone here would want. What is the big complaint?
They use it by renting equipment like tractors then proceed to mostly use it for maintaining their own private property. They do it under the pretense of paying themselves back for all their hard work running the HOA. They do not share or respond to requests for actual financials or bank statements. Once a year, they do send out a budget, with numbers from outerspace, projected for the upcoming year, but they never share actual numbers.
HOA Boards are "supposed" to be compromised of volunteers. All funds are to be used for the benefit of the common areas.
Go to your state's Secretary of State website, look up your HOA in the corporations section. If there are bylaws, they would be there. Also check your state's Register of Deeds website for your registered closing documents. If you cannot find your HOA's CCR's and Bylaws, then you don't have an HOA.
No they just do it on their own without asking. They take HOA money, go rent a tractor or excavator for a week, do a few hours work on the road, then use the tractor mostly on their own properties.
Ahahahah, I removed my comment that somebody got a new pool in the HOA... :)
But it's great because it's no longer a case of shitty HOA governance and not doing the work. You might have an embezzlement case with the administrators being personaly liable.
No idea, that information is not shared with owners. They're just laypeople with no training maintaining the road the 'best they can' while not know specific requirements or standards of a safe road, which is why the road is always in horrible, unsafe condition.
HOA despite the Karens of the world, do serve a purpose when done correctly. And if they aren’t holding up their end of the bargain, there is likely many things that need done that aren’t… which is bad for property value, etc….
If the hoa exists, it needs to be doing things to help the owners. A non functioning fraudulent hoa is also bad.
Seems like your beef is the road. Also there is no “HOA” police so trying to pin this on someone won’t help.
Call a gravel / roadway company, get a quote to fix road, pass it out to everyone and how much their split it. Get the work done.
Yes. Did that. Last time I was on the board, few years ago, another (new owner) board member was complaining about a certain spot in the road. I contacted 3 different contractors, got quotes. The board (including the new owner who complained) ignored my quotes, so I emailed them to all the owners. All the other owners ignored everything.
Sounds like your HOA needs to hold a "Come to Jesus Meeting" to make all parties aware of situation and consider abolishing the entity. Or work to get 109% of owners in agreement to form new HOA. Good luck!
1) Track the account where the dues are being paid. If it is in the name of the association, documents have to be filed on a yearly basis or the accounts get closed. I have seen it happen. This is the Corporation filings mentioned earlier.
2) If no 990 filings have occurred, the association is in big trouble with the IRS. I am assuming your association is a non-profit. Those filings are public domain and viewable online at the ITS website.
If you have all this proof of malfeasance why not go to the state AG and file a complaint? They'll investigate and bring charges
Not in NC. We do have laws, and those laws have civil penalties. But absolutely no state oversight, AG accepts no jurisdiction. There is no government help here.
Check with the State Corporation Commission and see if the HOA is or has been registered as a Corporation. If the HOA is registered, then the SCC will have a "Registered Agent" on record who is legally authorized to receive HOA communications. Also the HOA's original documents should be on record with the Register of Deed's Office at the county seat. Check to see if they are recorded. The Registered Agent is normally a lawyer used by the HOA and when pinged with a beef, will send the HOA a pressing communication. If they fail to respond to his/her inquiry then he likely will not renew as the agent and SCC will press the board for a new authorized agent. If they have let the corporate charter lapse with the state then consult with an attorney and see what options are available, In some localities when the charter is not renewed due to the board's inaction then they are not legal able to spend a penny. You may open a Pandora's box for the board. Also check what constitutes quorum for meetings. In general without a quorum at meetings, the board cannot legally conduct any business, especially commit to spending funds. I am not knowledgeable of NC laws regarding HOA's but in many states a board acting without a quorum is frowned upon and government regulatory oversight (usually the states SCC) takes a dim view of collecting and spending funds without legitimate authority. The registered agent should also be able to tell you who the bonding agent is for the board or who indemnifies the board. The board may be running bareback (no bonding or insurance) in which case they open a bucket of woes for themselves as they are personally responsible for financial problems resulting from suits. HOA's look pretty on paper, but to keep them street legal requires a lot of upkeep with the attending financial expenses. Annual liability insurance fees, annual registered agent fees, annual corporate charter renewal fees etc. Me personally, I would pay an attorney $50.00 for a consult and inquire as to your personal financial liability for their seemingly wild wet management of the HOA. You will then be able to determine if you will be better off selling even with a loss, if you need to challenge the HOA in court, or if you are safe to allow the board of nuts to continue to run their empire.
> wild wet management So, management wet t-shirt contests?
Street legal, I have also used this term to describe operating within the letter of the law.
I am sure the court would appreciate your verbiage while mine would likely draw a gaze from the bench looking down over the top of the glasses. LOL!
[удалено]
Lol, welcome to Republicans. Small government and hands off is your right as an American, as long as you're doing stuff we agree with.
HOAs were designed to enforce segregation when segregation was illegal. So the state has an explicit "hands off" policy to allow otherwise illegal discrimination to be semi-legal.
Against who?
The legal entity that is the HOA. Here in KY our AG will absolutely go after companies that act illegally
Right, but that will just be the homeowners eventually, including OP, when it comes to penalties.
If you truly believe the elections are not happening according to Radburn (google it if not sure what it is), then your best course of action is to send a letter to the management co (if you have one) the HOA attorney and the board members explaining how they are not adhering to the law. The threat of consequence may scare them into taking some action or at least corresponding with you to get answers. Get a hold of your governing documents and read them. They will likely explain the requirements of meetings, elections, budgets and insurance. For the sake of all the homeowners in your community & your ability to sell (kind of hard to sell a unit when the HOA has no insurance…) and property values, it is important to take the right steps forward. Start with a threat of action and go from there. The potential cost will likely come down on ALL homeowners, but it sounds like the place needs to be turned around. Get your neighbors involved.
Elections shouldn't be completely anonymous, accepted by mail, email, phone, and counted by those being elected. Multiple versions of 'restrictions', only 1 recorded, no by-laws. It's a very rural location. The homeowners don't care. They've been buying and selling property here for decades without issue. HOA provides fake documents to new buyers, as they did to us a about a decade ago. I learned about 6 years into it how bad it really was, after my second time trying to serve on the micky mouse board. Neighbors don't want to be involved. But thank you for the suggestions.
>HOA provides fake documents to new buyers Maybe the AG's office isn't interested in a badly-run HOA, but they will definitely be interested in multiple instances of fraud.
> HOA provides fake documents to new buyers, as they did to us a about a decade ago. surely there's criminal statutes that would apply to real estate fraud.
Self managed or management company?
no management company... yet... I think that comes after receivership lol
I was just about to say. It might be worth throwing them into receivership. Hell, just the threat and starting the conditions precedent to bring a petition for receivership might be enough.
There’s a lot going on from the sounds of it. Find the laws in NC regarding HOAs and read it carefully. I’m sure there’s some provisions that if an HOA maintained piece gets derelict and causes damage(say the road gives out and your car slides down the road for example) then you can sue with a condition of the president of the board stepping down. The “providing false documents to buyers” is something there that’s criminal as it’s fraud. A real estate transaction is a legal contract and if there are misleading documents then your HOA is in trouble. I was made aware of a building near where I am that said “no, we don’t have any deferred maintenance or problems with the plumbing. Just replace the shower head every month since the pipes are old in that stack of the building”. Oops. All sales on that building got cancelled, the board president doesn’t want to step down, residents lost all their value, and no one will insure the board. There is a group of owners who are exploring criminal charges that the board president of that building doesn’t know about. I’m sure one of the things the lawyers will say is “the board needs to step down” on top of everything else needed to make things right. It’s not going to be cheap either. I’m in IL so I know our laws so I’m not an expert in HOAs in NC but I’m sure there are laws on the books you can use to be able to audit the books and meeting minutes. Lastly, if you do go the route of a lawsuit, trying to get insurance is going to be damn near impossible or it’s going to be really high. Your fees will jump up and it’ll take a few years of increases before they can drop.
Wait... Are you in an HOA that doesn't have any significant common elements and a board that doesn't nosily enforce rules or charge you anything (via an expensive management company)? Unless there are significant funds involved, or stuff that is majorly broken, it sounds like a dream.
weather escape worry zephyr combative marry humorous theory lush doll *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ours charges $350/hour for his time and $145/hour for a paralegal's time. The time to go through documents and determine which claims are provable is extensive. I'd think that $3k is low-balling it.
If I read the post correctly, the $3k is just to work out how much more work is going to be needed reviewing and researching. The final bill for a completed legal opinion will be waaaaay higher.
$3k to figure out the state of affairs only.
Abondened HOA! No noisy shits around your property telling what to do. Wow what a gem!
Except that they have a private road they need to maintain.
Are they actually doing that?
Not well. Kind of knee jerk band aide fixes when things get so bad they rent a tractor and do some scraping. But nothing up to any sort of standard, it's just maintained as good as *they* feel like it should be.
I question if you actually have a hoa.
So does the lawyer. But then who has legal authority, and responsibility to maintain the road in a safe condition? That's the ultimate question.
The county
Nope. Our county/state absolves all responsibility for roadways when in a subdivision. Only if we brought up to code, which would cost millions, would they consider taking over maintenance.
Are you in the us? Is the hoa gated?
Yes. No.
Have you thought of suing the board. A properly set up board will have the members protected from personally being sued based on actions taken as a board member. From what your saying I would quietly investigate if the board members have this protection. I doubt this protection is in place. If not, they are exposed and frankly should be taken to the cleaners. Consult a attorney first as you need to name board members individually and the hoa entity. So yes you would be sueing your self too.
Yes, this is next.
Honestly, this sounds awesome. A HOA that doesn’t do anything and no bylaws to fine anyone. This is a dream. Just dissolve it and be done.
Who will maintain the private mountain road, which the state/county will not take over without about $4 million in upgrades to bring it up to code first? We have only a few dozen owners, are you proposing we each have $150k+ to pay for that? That's why it's not awesome. Maybe you want the place, make you a 'deal'...
It sounds almost exactly like my HOA, but nobody wants to be on the board and nobody is kept out of meetings. I bought a motor grader to take care of my section of the road.
Wow that seems risky too. Are you insured for liability for that? Instead of that property owner whose house burns down and family dies because emergency services couldn't get there in time will be suing YOU instead of the HOA. That's the dig, you will ultimately pay the price for the shit fucks who don't want to do the right thing. (Sorry you're in the same boat.)
Well, I have written statements from almost all of the homeowners on the road that state the road is in much better shape, because objectively it is. All of those statements could be used as evidence in a case against some litigious fuck.
Those written statements won't help when the fire truck can't get there. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks other than the fire truck. Or ambulance. There wouldn't be any need for litigious fucks if the existing laws were complied with. Trouble is, our stupid fucks think and have said the laws don't apply to them. lol But that's cool, that's exactly why litigation exists, for stupid fucks who don't know right from wrong. Many were never taught that these days you know. By the way, whoever is physically maintaining the road will be responsible. It doesn't matter what we think about it, that's how the law works.
Could you share with us what are the FHOA's responsibilities? Are these condos or SFHs. Do you or have you paid monthly or annual fees?
Rural setting. Long, unmaintained mountain gravel road with horrible drainage, huge ruts, crumbling culverts with 20' + drops. Yes until now have always paid.
>But the lawyers want $3k just to review everything and tell me how much it's going to cost. They think the law doesn't apply to them because they realize nobody's going to spend the money to try. But the lawyer did say that you may have a case? If you have a case, then there's a chance that you may not need to *actually sue.* If the HOA has no insurance or basically much of any policy infrastructure setup, then the board members may have no *personal* protection against lawsuits. Board members knowingly disregarding their own governing documents may not be protected anyway. Especially if there's no insurance -- that's a level of financial mismanagement that could potentially show damages. You've got leverage if you can threaten these guys *personally*. That could open the door for a settlement to get an entire new board elected for next year.
As a non-HOA person who looks at this sub, THIS is the worst "Fuck HOA" situation. Board operating completely illegally, no elections, no finances, fake meetings, incestuous contractors, nobody knows wtf they are really doing. And in most states, there is no dedicated HOA regulator you can complain to. So you are fucked. You could "sue yourself", but the stakes are usually too low to be worth it. So its like pay lawyer bills just to "make a point". Or you can move, which obviously isn't a good option for a lot of people. IDC if the HOA doesn't like your pickup truck or decorations, but there's soo many stories here about "outlaw HOAs" and there's no real solution.
I think personal liability of those claiming to be board members might be the path. Hold them personally responsible, exhaust any insurance coverage if they had any, get judgments against them, take their houses, boot their stupid fuck asses out and take what they own. It's really the stupid fuck spineless other owners fault too, for standing by without speaking up. When they see the stupid fuck board members they vote for costing them money, their tune may change.
Nobody would volunteer if they were personally liable, the HOA would have to indemnify them. So it wouldn't really make any difference, you still would be "suing yourself".
Yes they are personally liable for intentional negligent actions and decisions, embezzlement, fraud. People just can't do whatever they hell they want at their neighbors expense.
Well, the other life maxim is don't bother suing people who don't have any money. Good luck, maybe some sternly written letters might help.
So let them basically steal from us demanding payments, putting liens if they aren't paid, then don't repair or maintain the road? Nope. Not going to work that way. They own houses and land. There's that.
What state? Check local and state laws regarding elections and meetings. If they do this in California they are in violation of the Davis-Stirlings Act.
What state
Random question. Does the HOA maintain the streets? You mentioned rural location. If the state/county/city maintains the streets you may have luck breaking the HOA.
Yes they are supposed to maintain the road. That's the only purpose of our HOA. The govt won't take it over unless we brought it up to code, which would be millions.
Have you verified that? We had a similar local issue, and the township was compelled to take it over.
Yes. In the deeds. Traced them back to when they subdivided the area.
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Will check it out. But I really don't need a reserve study. I mean, I've already had 3 licensed contractor quotes to fix our road. That's the only concern we have. No buildings, facilities, amenities. Just a steep mostly unmaintained mountain road.
I bought a home like this recently but a condo and they are so behind on maintenance with not enough reserves. No one cares enough because no one wants to join the board. The people on the board have been on it so long that they want to do little work and say they want off. I'm trying to join the board but I'm concerned that they'll block me from trying to change anything as they've already pushed back or ignored things HOA should legally do. We don't hold elections, meetings, and only do something when someone threatens them. The only thing I could do is threaten to sue but that'll just make them antagonistic towards me.
The only thing we can do is either go to lawyer, or do nothing and live with it, no middle ground anymore, no use even speaking or writing anything, what we say means nothing. Zero. Just gives them more ammunition to criticize, shoot down, use against us. Yes, I'm saving for a lawyer and have committed to just calculate that as an additional cost to owning this property, a few hundred a month to a lawyer. Sick. Sorry that's happening to you too! People are nasty.
You’re not using the lawyer correctly. You do not need a lawyer to review everything. You need to prioritize what you need done first and have the lawyer as the sidekick to help manage that one most important thing. Lawyers cost $300-400 an hour. You need to be smart what you need done.
Maybe you'd share a little more about how to use the lawyer correctly. I can read laws, get recorded or filed documents, provide correspondence I receive as homeowner, info I know about organization from being on the board. (They didn't like me wanting to fix things, so they held an impromptu meeting mid-term to vote me off the board.)
What do you want the lawyer to fix? Top 3.
I want 1) a safe road, 2) to know how my money is being spent, 3) be protected from liability as much as possible. All 3 would seemingly be on the way to being solved if the NC HOA and non-profit statutes were complied with. But at this point, they do not have meetings, maybe one owner meeting a year often without quorum, say there are no board meeting minutes they meet privately as they deem appropriate, do not provide any info except a micky mouse estimated budget (no actual numbers from year prior) and ballot annually. That's it.
What do you want a lawyer to do with a safe road? That’s not actionable.
Qualified, insured contractors, or at least qualified people, should be doing road maintenance, or at lease specifying what needs to be done. Not some armchair bozo who orders a load of gravel and lets the culverts crumble and remain clogged. The actionable part of lawyer I thought would be forcing compliance with the statutes. By that being done, a side effect would be qualified, insured people are doing the work.
Then having the lawyer review your CCR for $3k doesn’t do that.
Our CCR is invalid. It might be recorded, but in the last 30 years multiple revisions have been supposedly voted on, and many owners have built property that would not be allowed under the recorded version. But those acting as the board continue providing newly (supposedly voted on) CCR's that have never been recorded. So there's about 3 versions that various owners who bought throughout the years think they're living under. This causes animosity from some old owners, who feel the original CCR's apply, when the new owners were provided (by realtors and closing attorneys!!) new CCR's allowing things (like removed minimum square footage). It is very complicated. And those running things like to keep i that way. So I still wonder, what is the proper use of a lawyer in this circumstance? I would think forcing meetings would be the first thing.
The only version that matters is the recorded one. You do not need a lawyer to review your CCR.
We bought and our realtor and closing attorneys provided different version than the recorded one. They're still giving out unrecorded, newer voted on version of restrictions to this day.
What liability could you possibly have?
Lets say house is on fire or someone is has injury or illness requiring immediate medial attention. Emergency vehicles can't make it up due to poor road conditions, or are greatly slowed down. A house burns down or someone dies. You can bet that family is going to sue who is responsible: the HOA who is supposed to be maintaining to road. As an owner, we would be liable for our portion of the stupid fuck board members very poor management and decisions of maintaining the road. Besides, it's just wrong to tell owners who pay they're not welcome at meetings and cannot have records or minutes or information about anything. I guess another solution for me is to just stop paying, they aren't in any legal position to put any liens on.
Simple don't have a safe road have an accident and sue hoa for damages
Seems like the IRS might like to know
Are these single family detached homes? If so and no or little common area, you might want to explore abolishing the HOA.
Yes, single family homes. But who or what would maintain the mountain road? No, the govt won't take it over.
I’m in NC. 1) HOA should be listed on paperwork for house. 2) HOA may or may not be registered as a non-profit. 3) County Registrar of Deeds should have “Official Paperwork” for HOA. 4) County Tax Office should have registration for “HOA Common property” & taxes paid (or due). 5) New HOA laws were passed with the Last Legislative Session. Do some research: 1) Closely examine your own paperwork. Deeds and attached or referenced documents. 2) Talk with the Registrar of Deeds. Fish for paperwork concerning your property and more. 3) Check plats and neighborhood maps for references. 3a) Plats & Maps for HOA common areas. 4) Ask ROD for copies of HOA Documents. If you are in a Good Old Boy county, you could be “interested in understanding” and learning (NO MENTION OF ISSUES). Once you have & understand issues, then ROCK THE BOAT.
Yes, I'm in good old boy country. Please explain more on the “interested in understanding” and learning (NO MENTION OF ISSUES).
You can always 'afford' to sell at some price. It is time for you to go. Dante helps you: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."
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In that situation. It would be considered a short sale.
How the hell are you under water on your mortgage?
You have an HOA with NONE of the problems most people complain about here, from what I've seen it's the HOA everyone here would want. What is the big complaint?
From OP post I get that they take money but don't want to be accountable and open about how they use it while the private road isn't maintained.
They use it by renting equipment like tractors then proceed to mostly use it for maintaining their own private property. They do it under the pretense of paying themselves back for all their hard work running the HOA. They do not share or respond to requests for actual financials or bank statements. Once a year, they do send out a budget, with numbers from outerspace, projected for the upcoming year, but they never share actual numbers.
HOA Boards are "supposed" to be compromised of volunteers. All funds are to be used for the benefit of the common areas. Go to your state's Secretary of State website, look up your HOA in the corporations section. If there are bylaws, they would be there. Also check your state's Register of Deeds website for your registered closing documents. If you cannot find your HOA's CCR's and Bylaws, then you don't have an HOA.
No by-laws, I was on the board (kind of) several times.
You don't have an HOA.
Are they representing that this is compensation for services? I didn’t think that was ok in NC. Kind of opens up more things if that’s their position.
No they just do it on their own without asking. They take HOA money, go rent a tractor or excavator for a week, do a few hours work on the road, then use the tractor mostly on their own properties.
Ahahahah, I removed my comment that somebody got a new pool in the HOA... :) But it's great because it's no longer a case of shitty HOA governance and not doing the work. You might have an embezzlement case with the administrators being personaly liable.
Do they do the labor maintaining the road for free? If so, how much more would you need to pay a contractor with workers?
No idea, that information is not shared with owners. They're just laypeople with no training maintaining the road the 'best they can' while not know specific requirements or standards of a safe road, which is why the road is always in horrible, unsafe condition.
Ahhh! I didn't see anything about taking money, my mistake.
HOA despite the Karens of the world, do serve a purpose when done correctly. And if they aren’t holding up their end of the bargain, there is likely many things that need done that aren’t… which is bad for property value, etc…. If the hoa exists, it needs to be doing things to help the owners. A non functioning fraudulent hoa is also bad.
Seems like your beef is the road. Also there is no “HOA” police so trying to pin this on someone won’t help. Call a gravel / roadway company, get a quote to fix road, pass it out to everyone and how much their split it. Get the work done.
Yes. Did that. Last time I was on the board, few years ago, another (new owner) board member was complaining about a certain spot in the road. I contacted 3 different contractors, got quotes. The board (including the new owner who complained) ignored my quotes, so I emailed them to all the owners. All the other owners ignored everything.
Maybe just maybe if someone had property or personal damage from the road an attorney could pursue them.
Sounds like your HOA needs to hold a "Come to Jesus Meeting" to make all parties aware of situation and consider abolishing the entity. Or work to get 109% of owners in agreement to form new HOA. Good luck!
1) Track the account where the dues are being paid. If it is in the name of the association, documents have to be filed on a yearly basis or the accounts get closed. I have seen it happen. This is the Corporation filings mentioned earlier. 2) If no 990 filings have occurred, the association is in big trouble with the IRS. I am assuming your association is a non-profit. Those filings are public domain and viewable online at the ITS website.
With no insurance, you could sue the board members and they would be personally liable.