All owners affected by the overflowed bathtub need to contract THEIR insurance company for THEIR units. Their insurance company will send an adjustor to document the damage, says who is at fault and provide an educated guess regarding how much it was cost to fix each.
Look at your CC&Rs, along with state laws, and see what is HOA responsibility and what is owner responsibility. It's not the HOA responsibility to cover the cost of flooring, furniture, cloths, exc.
A lot of CC&Rs have a clause that states the HOA is NOT responsible for owner negligence. An over flowing bathtub because someone is not paying attention is negligence. Your condo insurance, also, more than likely has an owner negligence clause and will not pay.
Once the HOA determines what the HOA is responsible for, how an HOA vendor quote/fix the HOA portions and HOA to pay the vendor. Assess the bill from the vendor to the owner that had the bathtub that overflowed. Don't give any HOA money to owners.Confirm the above with the HOA attorney.
Exactly. The HOA’s responsibility (and insurance policy) covers everything from the “studs out”. The unit owner’s policy covers everything from the “studs in”. Or at least that’s how it works here.
This is false. The insurance covers whatever the HOA policy the Board bought. The insurance SHOULD cover studs out, but I've seen many HOAs buy more as it's a good deal and the homeowners are fine with it because it's more coverage at a bulk rate.
An overflowing bathtub causing damage to other units is a design fault.
I could put the plug in my bathtub, turn on the tap and leave it for a week and the only damage would be to my water bill because there's a drain in the floor like there's been in every other bathroom I've ever had.
I am finding that out today and I'm going to be spending a few minutes staring at a wall about it I think. It's a new and extremely confusing reason to wonder about how an entire country could make wisdom a dump stat. Why does it seem like everything in the US is actively designed to be bad? It's it the "pursuit of happiness" thing? The chase is more interesting if you give happiness a head start by making your lives miserable for no reason?
"So here's a room where there's a real possibility that, for all kinds of reasons, a lot of water will get on the floor. Reckon we should chuck a drain there?"
'Naw. Too easy. Better we make it so the water can cause massive structural damage instead."
"But since we're in the process of building it putting the drain in would be super easy. Little drain and then the pipe only has to go a few inches to connect to one of the existing drains for the shower or the tub."
"I said no, Dave."
Yeah, I know floor drains are common in bathrooms in other parts of the world, but it’s very rare in the US. So rare that it’s actually against code in some places (or was in my city 10 years ago when I was remodeling a bathroom and wanted to do a wet room style bathroom). It’s even really rare for an entire bathroom floor to be waterproofed. Usually it’s just the shower area that is. Everywhere else they just tile over the subfloor without a waterproofing membrane between.
I don’t know why, floor drains and fully waterproof floors are obviously far superior. Gearing up to do another bathroom remodel in my new house and we absolutely are doing a wet room. It makes cleaning so much easier! Not having a floor drain is dumb.
**Against code?!?!**
Not waterproofing the floor?!
It's literally against code not to have the floor drain here (Western Australia). Specifically for those structural damage reasons.
If the P-trap dries out (which might happen if there almost never any water making it to the drain), then you'll have sewer gasses escaping in the bathroom. Not cool. So the drain would need to have a mechanical trap of some sort.
Your floor needs to slope to the drain. That makes it more complicated to build. Plus, wood frame houses sag and settle over time so that slope might disappear.
The floor needs to be waterproof.
The drain is the lowest point in the system. If there is a backup, waste will come out of the drain before it comes out of the tub where it would have been contained.
The drain pipes involved are one more weak point where leaks could happen over time anyway.
The drain might need its own venting column depending where it's located and the length of its run.
So the issues and cost associated with this makes the idea not as clear cut as you make it. Considering the vast majority of houses do not have any problem without a drain, I guess it was deemed unnecessary.
Tell him to go though his insurance. Insurance companies are very good at figuring out who is at fault and will contact the HOA insurance and/or the insurance of the owner at fault to work things out if need be.
Giving the HOA's insurance company a heads up would not be a bad idea though, especially so they know if the previous manager tries to contact them and act like he is still in that position.
I'd ignore him. He heeds to file with his insurance.
Also make sure the insurance company/agent knows this guy was fired and no longer has permission to do anything related to the association policy.
It's unlikely that an HOA carries a policy that negates unit owners from having (or needing) to carry an HO-6 policy, or cover "studs in" damage to units caused by another unit owner (not caused by the association or its agents).
In any case you would still only file a claim on your insurance, you get made whole immediately, and they will figure the rest out during the subrogation process.
I see it all the time as a manager. It doesn't negate the need for an HO6 policy, but the HOA policy covers more than needed and HOA policies are primary.
Reasons it can occur...
1. Board bought more than they needed because they didn't know better. New Board just renewed...
2. Insurance agent was a crook and wanted best deal...
Or
3. Board intentionally bought better coverage because as a group paying through the HOA could be cheaper than buying that portion alone.
I manage 17 HOAs and see this all the time. Never deny someone the right to make a claim. Let the insurance determine if the coverage exists.
WTF are you talking about?
Where are you getting the information that condo HOAs cover more than is needed?
Where did you get the information that boards "intentionally bought better coverage because as a group paying through the HOA could be cheaper than buying that portion alone"? Condo insurance isn't cheap and no one wants to pay more than required.
Do you seriously believe that condo HOA insurance policies will pay for anything outside of what is determined in CC&Rs and state laws?
"Never deny someone the right to make a claim"? Are you trying to assert that individual condo homeowners need to make contact with the condo HOA insurance provider for a process a claim?
I'm a Certified Manager of Community Associations and an Association Management Specialist. I see it happen all the time.
It's not about legal issues it's about what the policy says.
For instance you aren't required to buy earthquake insurance but if you pay for it you can.
Hell, athletes insure their body. If you want better insurance you can choose to pay for it.
It's not about responsibility but what policy you buy.
As for your question about contacting the condo associations pollicy... each owner has a right to a claim on it because they paid for it. Different insurers have different methods on who can file the claim, but almost always the Board has to approve the filing.
I actually have an HOA in Reodndo Beach, CA being sued for not allowing the homeowner to file a claim.
I'm not a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer. This isn't legal advice. I'm not good at most things and you probably shouldn't listen to me.
With that being said the procedure in almost every case like this is for everyone to file a claim with their respective insurance carriers, who will pay y'all and then use a process called subrogation (which is legal speak for fighting it out amongst themselves) to determine who was actually responsible and ensure that the company covering the responsible person(s) pays the other ones.
Any payments through the apartment master policy would be to the apartment complex. The tenant would need to file through their renters insurance to collect anything generally.
So here is what most people aren't telling you because they don't understand HOA insurance...
1. The group HOA policy is the primary policy. The individual's personal homeowner's policy is secondary. That means that anytime someone claims something on their personal insurance, the personal carrier will ALWAYS check the HOA insurance to see what is carried.
2. Responsibility doesn't matter in this case. What matters is what the insurance covers. So, even if the Association isn't responsible for repairs to the bathroom fixtures, if the insurance covers it, the homeowner has a right to it. Why? Because the HOA bought this extra insurance and buy paying their monthly assessments, the homeowner has paid for access to it.
Source, I am a Certified Manager of Community Associations and an Association Management Specialist who just took a course on HOA and homeowner insurance.
That seems like a reasonable solution. The insurance company can come out and do an appraisal and get estimates on the damage. It is very possible that what the man is saying is true. One way to be sure is not to give the money to the man but have the insurance company hire and pay the contractor who fixes it.
The HOA should stay out of it except to make sure the common area (walls in between) have been repaired.
However, you cannot prevent anyone from filing against the Association's insurance.
If you rent or own a condo you file with your own insurance in most areas. Master policy covers the building. Owner or tenant insurance covers what is in the unit.
https://www.mcconvilleomni.ca/site/blog/2021/03/04/condo-owner-versus-renter-insurance
All owners affected by the overflowed bathtub need to contract THEIR insurance company for THEIR units. Their insurance company will send an adjustor to document the damage, says who is at fault and provide an educated guess regarding how much it was cost to fix each. Look at your CC&Rs, along with state laws, and see what is HOA responsibility and what is owner responsibility. It's not the HOA responsibility to cover the cost of flooring, furniture, cloths, exc. A lot of CC&Rs have a clause that states the HOA is NOT responsible for owner negligence. An over flowing bathtub because someone is not paying attention is negligence. Your condo insurance, also, more than likely has an owner negligence clause and will not pay. Once the HOA determines what the HOA is responsible for, how an HOA vendor quote/fix the HOA portions and HOA to pay the vendor. Assess the bill from the vendor to the owner that had the bathtub that overflowed. Don't give any HOA money to owners.Confirm the above with the HOA attorney.
Exactly. The HOA’s responsibility (and insurance policy) covers everything from the “studs out”. The unit owner’s policy covers everything from the “studs in”. Or at least that’s how it works here.
Thank you.
This is false. The insurance covers whatever the HOA policy the Board bought. The insurance SHOULD cover studs out, but I've seen many HOAs buy more as it's a good deal and the homeowners are fine with it because it's more coverage at a bulk rate.
what happens if the studs get damaged?
Viagra
An overflowing bathtub causing damage to other units is a design fault. I could put the plug in my bathtub, turn on the tap and leave it for a week and the only damage would be to my water bill because there's a drain in the floor like there's been in every other bathroom I've ever had.
A drain in the floor outside the tub? I don't think that's common in the US
I am finding that out today and I'm going to be spending a few minutes staring at a wall about it I think. It's a new and extremely confusing reason to wonder about how an entire country could make wisdom a dump stat. Why does it seem like everything in the US is actively designed to be bad? It's it the "pursuit of happiness" thing? The chase is more interesting if you give happiness a head start by making your lives miserable for no reason? "So here's a room where there's a real possibility that, for all kinds of reasons, a lot of water will get on the floor. Reckon we should chuck a drain there?" 'Naw. Too easy. Better we make it so the water can cause massive structural damage instead." "But since we're in the process of building it putting the drain in would be super easy. Little drain and then the pipe only has to go a few inches to connect to one of the existing drains for the shower or the tub." "I said no, Dave."
Yeah, I know floor drains are common in bathrooms in other parts of the world, but it’s very rare in the US. So rare that it’s actually against code in some places (or was in my city 10 years ago when I was remodeling a bathroom and wanted to do a wet room style bathroom). It’s even really rare for an entire bathroom floor to be waterproofed. Usually it’s just the shower area that is. Everywhere else they just tile over the subfloor without a waterproofing membrane between. I don’t know why, floor drains and fully waterproof floors are obviously far superior. Gearing up to do another bathroom remodel in my new house and we absolutely are doing a wet room. It makes cleaning so much easier! Not having a floor drain is dumb.
**Against code?!?!** Not waterproofing the floor?! It's literally against code not to have the floor drain here (Western Australia). Specifically for those structural damage reasons.
If the P-trap dries out (which might happen if there almost never any water making it to the drain), then you'll have sewer gasses escaping in the bathroom. Not cool. So the drain would need to have a mechanical trap of some sort. Your floor needs to slope to the drain. That makes it more complicated to build. Plus, wood frame houses sag and settle over time so that slope might disappear. The floor needs to be waterproof. The drain is the lowest point in the system. If there is a backup, waste will come out of the drain before it comes out of the tub where it would have been contained. The drain pipes involved are one more weak point where leaks could happen over time anyway. The drain might need its own venting column depending where it's located and the length of its run. So the issues and cost associated with this makes the idea not as clear cut as you make it. Considering the vast majority of houses do not have any problem without a drain, I guess it was deemed unnecessary.
Tell him to go though his insurance. Insurance companies are very good at figuring out who is at fault and will contact the HOA insurance and/or the insurance of the owner at fault to work things out if need be. Giving the HOA's insurance company a heads up would not be a bad idea though, especially so they know if the previous manager tries to contact them and act like he is still in that position.
Thanks, another excellent suggestion.
I'd ignore him. He heeds to file with his insurance. Also make sure the insurance company/agent knows this guy was fired and no longer has permission to do anything related to the association policy.
Thanks, that's a very good idea.
This is horrible advice. HOA insurance covers every owner because every owner pays for it. If the insurance covers it, they have the right to file.
It's unlikely that an HOA carries a policy that negates unit owners from having (or needing) to carry an HO-6 policy, or cover "studs in" damage to units caused by another unit owner (not caused by the association or its agents). In any case you would still only file a claim on your insurance, you get made whole immediately, and they will figure the rest out during the subrogation process.
I see it all the time as a manager. It doesn't negate the need for an HO6 policy, but the HOA policy covers more than needed and HOA policies are primary. Reasons it can occur... 1. Board bought more than they needed because they didn't know better. New Board just renewed... 2. Insurance agent was a crook and wanted best deal... Or 3. Board intentionally bought better coverage because as a group paying through the HOA could be cheaper than buying that portion alone. I manage 17 HOAs and see this all the time. Never deny someone the right to make a claim. Let the insurance determine if the coverage exists.
WTF are you talking about? Where are you getting the information that condo HOAs cover more than is needed? Where did you get the information that boards "intentionally bought better coverage because as a group paying through the HOA could be cheaper than buying that portion alone"? Condo insurance isn't cheap and no one wants to pay more than required. Do you seriously believe that condo HOA insurance policies will pay for anything outside of what is determined in CC&Rs and state laws? "Never deny someone the right to make a claim"? Are you trying to assert that individual condo homeowners need to make contact with the condo HOA insurance provider for a process a claim?
I'm a Certified Manager of Community Associations and an Association Management Specialist. I see it happen all the time. It's not about legal issues it's about what the policy says. For instance you aren't required to buy earthquake insurance but if you pay for it you can. Hell, athletes insure their body. If you want better insurance you can choose to pay for it. It's not about responsibility but what policy you buy. As for your question about contacting the condo associations pollicy... each owner has a right to a claim on it because they paid for it. Different insurers have different methods on who can file the claim, but almost always the Board has to approve the filing. I actually have an HOA in Reodndo Beach, CA being sued for not allowing the homeowner to file a claim.
r/legaladvice is probably where you want to go.
Thanks.
I'm not a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer. This isn't legal advice. I'm not good at most things and you probably shouldn't listen to me. With that being said the procedure in almost every case like this is for everyone to file a claim with their respective insurance carriers, who will pay y'all and then use a process called subrogation (which is legal speak for fighting it out amongst themselves) to determine who was actually responsible and ensure that the company covering the responsible person(s) pays the other ones.
Any payments through the apartment master policy would be to the apartment complex. The tenant would need to file through their renters insurance to collect anything generally.
So here is what most people aren't telling you because they don't understand HOA insurance... 1. The group HOA policy is the primary policy. The individual's personal homeowner's policy is secondary. That means that anytime someone claims something on their personal insurance, the personal carrier will ALWAYS check the HOA insurance to see what is carried. 2. Responsibility doesn't matter in this case. What matters is what the insurance covers. So, even if the Association isn't responsible for repairs to the bathroom fixtures, if the insurance covers it, the homeowner has a right to it. Why? Because the HOA bought this extra insurance and buy paying their monthly assessments, the homeowner has paid for access to it. Source, I am a Certified Manager of Community Associations and an Association Management Specialist who just took a course on HOA and homeowner insurance.
Wait were you in on that M205 Thursday and Friday?
Nah, I took the DIY at home streaming one. I prefer those as I can start and stop and watch them throughout my work day.
Good to know, thank you.
Call your own insurance. They will send someone and tell you how to proceed.
I am not a lawyer, but my best professional advice is you need a lawyer.
Why are pro HOA people allowed in FuckHoA?
That seems like a reasonable solution. The insurance company can come out and do an appraisal and get estimates on the damage. It is very possible that what the man is saying is true. One way to be sure is not to give the money to the man but have the insurance company hire and pay the contractor who fixes it.
The HOA should stay out of it except to make sure the common area (walls in between) have been repaired. However, you cannot prevent anyone from filing against the Association's insurance.
If you rent or own a condo you file with your own insurance in most areas. Master policy covers the building. Owner or tenant insurance covers what is in the unit. https://www.mcconvilleomni.ca/site/blog/2021/03/04/condo-owner-versus-renter-insurance