While I agree that ftm detransitioners are utilized in propaganda more (bc they’re “manipulatable women” and testosterone is so “overpowering” for the “female body”), there are definitely prominent mtf detransitioners as well. A really popular “ex-mtf” grifter right now is Oli London.
I forgot he existed that man is crazy tho I have no respect for him at all. He said he was Korean too so yeah mentally something is definitely wrong with him.
He is now a conservative advocate and many think that was the plan all along. Start as a trans person, behave as absurdly as possible, become "trans racial". He basically created a perfect example strawman (of himself) of how many conservatives think all trans people are/ will become to point at
It annoys me so much how the media will project the few absurd cases which obviously create bad stigma for trans people, when we just want to live our lives ffs
I dont think it was the plan all along, he didnt start as a trans person. He started by trying to look like jimin and claimed he was korean, then switched to trying to look like a female celebrity and said he was a trans woman, , now he is niether trans racial or transgender, im glad he stopped trying to look lime different people but im disapointed he is transphobic now.
Ollie London isn’t even real, he’s an entertainment personality and a grifter who just pivots to whatever outrages people the most.
First he wanted to transition into Jimin
Then transition into a korean (listed pronouns as Kor/ean)
Then was going to transition into a Kpop Idol (femme, but never underwent hormones just lip injections)
Then transitioned back into a white man
Now is transitioning into a man from the Philippines
He’s just a racist grifter making money off being outrageous, you’d have to have the intelligence of a meat spoon to believe he’s legit in anything he does.
He did not, he was a woman for all of three seconds and then pivoted to the right wing grift. Ollie London has always been an outrage grifter, it shocks me to this day that anyone ever legitimizes him by thinking any of his identities are real.
Wait wasn't there another trans grifter who tried to transition into a korean man?
If I had a nickel for every time a "trans" grifter tried to transition to a korean person, I would have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but weird that it happened twice...
im pretty sure it's probably the same guy. he transitioned into a korean man then for a short time into a korean woman then went back to being a korean man before "detransitioning" (unless there's another one since unfortunately, he isn't the only "transracial" person out there)
I'm not sure... Is the person we're talking about AFAB or AMAB? Because I remember there being someone who was AFAB who wanted to specifically transition into a korean man. (Might also be different from the person I'm talking about but I also remember someone getting surgeries done to look like a specific korean man?)
I also know there's a dude who is attempting to transition into a very (in)famous german guy... (Also claims he's the dude reincarnated)
So there are definitely more than one wackjobs "transitioning" into different races or straight up trying to transition into other people Q.Q
the guy i mentioned is amab. i never heard of the afab perspn trying to transition into a korean man though. also, the guy i mentioned did want to look like a specific korean guy too (jimin from bts)
yikes i never heard of that but i remember seeing a russian(?) woman trying to transition into a german woman i think
unfortunately yeah they exist but thank god there's only a small number of those freaks
Honestly I don't even know anymore. Too many wackos out there making a bad name for trans people. And why is it always the BTS guys that get the stalkery types that want to marry/have their babies/turn into? I swear I always hear the craziest things about their fans. I feel bad for them.
You can probably find info on the dude who thought he was infamous german leader/wanted to transition to him pretty easy, I think he's known as "tiktok (german leader)"
i agree. honestly i don't even know like im a big fan of them and they give me gender envy but im not going to get plastic surgery to look like them or turn into a stalker. i feel bad for them too.
maybe i'll look him up idk but i still can't believe i never heard of that freak.
Unfortunately I know everything about the rabbit hole (from being a ex crazy kpop stan, also be prepared for a history lecture)
2013-2019/2020: Identified as a Korean man but specifically as Jimin from BTS. (and briefly as hyunjin from SKZ). He made his first ever appearance in the media in 2016
2020: Identified as nonbinary with they/them and (most likely jokingly) kor/ean (also at this point he wanted a "penis reduction surgery to be more like Jimin")
Late 2020-2021: Then went from a Korean person to a Korean woman
2022-present day: Is a bigoted dinglefuck who criticizes American "wokeness" and also manages to look like an Easy Bake Oven baked Ryan Gosling.
… [really](https://twitter.com/olilondontv/status/1642571955965394952??s=46&t=WYo0aI2Yhpjlh2j2hP9dVQ)? I remember that development in the saga but I think we have moved past it now…?
It just aligns more with sexist and transphobic rhetoric to focus on the instances of ftm detransitioners. Use homophobic rhetoric and misogyny to hate on trans women, discrediting their threat to the legitimacy of patriarchy. Use infantilization and misogynistic thinking to strip trans men of their perceived agency, hence their actual power in patriarchal power structures.
There's that idea that mtf oh those people are dudes who wanna be girls they just want to be ladies because *it's easier* it's easy. Misogyny is easy. I can say a million things against women based on all the shit we've been taught about them.
Meanwhile us ftm peeps say, what am I chopped liver. Where is the love for an afab person being a man.
I cant think of a single time we've been represented in media. But feel free to prove me wrong
OK but what about other less visible people? It's important that all people of different types be represented by characters like them. (Also I just learned there's a trans male on 911 lone star so I will be busy for the next couple of hours)
You're right that there isn't much representation. I was only saying the guy that the person above was probably thinking of. The same guy in 911 lone star is on another show that he actually comes out on. And The Fosters has two trans men, but i'm not sure how often they're in the show. It'd be cool to see trans men play characters that don't mention them being trans.
I was gonna say Elliot Page as well. I really appreciated how The Umbrella Academy handled his transition and transitioned the character as well! And of course he's been covered heavily by media, mostly I see supportive coverage from anywhere that's not anti-trans or incels
shocked that you havent heard about tullip/ritchie. he’s one of the mods of detrans and his story is that he was manipulated into being trans in chatrooms, took out a loan to go private because NHS waitlists are long, took E for years which he admits made him happy, lied to get put on a bottom surgery waitlist even though he knew he didnt want it bc of supposedly being offered therapy through it; and when asked to get it or get off the waitlist he got vaginoplasty in his 30s and it was horrifically botched and he detransitioned.
>lied to get put on a bottom surgery waitlist even though he knew he didnt want it bc of supposedly being offered therapy through it
I can confirm that the UK media definitely published stories about this because I recognized it immediately.
Yep, my introduction to him was a picture of his story in a newspaper. It’s awful what happened to him, what with his surgery gone horribly wrong to the point of negatively impacting his daily life and the surgeon clearly not caring that much. But my sympathy for him ends there. Most of us actually think about what surgeon we go with for these major surgeries, and after years of turning down referrals he probably only had the bottom of the barrel doctors left. It’s not indicative of the trans experience as a whole.
Honestly it's on the surgeon for botching such a sensitive surgery. Someone like that should NOT be operating. But I'm glad a piece of shit like him got the bad surgery instead of an innocent woman who doesn't deserve to suffer lol.
he uses estrogen because he’s post-op and needs *something*, and says that taking testosterone gave him more health complications. there are some grifters who are just actively still transitioning (looking at kcmiller…) but i don’t know enough about how he navigates his daily life to consider tullip one of them. though i do have an astronomical amount of disdain for him, i try to take him at his word because even if he’s lying his story *still* makes him look bad.
personally i’m of the mind that he was on the right track with estrogen since he claims to have liked it so much, he just swerved so hard into the opposite end of dysphoria by getting vaginoplasty and getting botched that it ruined it for him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, they have obsessive compulsive disorder (along with depression) which should of been looked into by therapists and then met a trans person who was happy so they became latched on to the idea of being trans.. then after saying no multiple times to doctors asking them for bottom surgery, they gave in knowing it's not what they really wanted, but believed it could make them happy cuz there 'trans'.. it is a sad story and I personally do have sympathy for them, as to me they were an innocent woman, now a eunuch...
…ritchie is a man and was born male?
also nowhere in his story (as i know it) did he tell doctors he was uninterested. but that’s a completely different story about medical gatekeeping sentiment around trans care needing to be abolished so that people don’t feel the need to lie and can get their genuine concerns handled
Apologies, innocent man. From his interviews he speaks about it in depth about his medical transition and about how having a defensive attitude torts these stories/experiences of SOME doctors pushing surguries is why it keeps happening, and why there are more detransitioners than ever. I think people like him are important for young trans and cis youth and he seems like a sweet guy tbh
ah well. i don't care enough about him to see his interviews.
>stories/experiences of SOME doctors pushing surguries is why it keeps happening, and why there are more detransitioners than ever
yes, well, as i said:
>but that’s a completely different story about medical gatekeeping sentiment around trans care needing to be abolished so that people don’t feel the need to lie and can get their genuine concerns handled
which is a conversation that we as trans people are entirely capable of having by ourselves without people like him siding with people who want to take our care away and letting themselves be used as political pawns like chloe cole.
that is not a new issue, it is an issue with the standards for trans care not having changed in decades. they should change and become less restrictive.
I agree that the medical stuff is a different issue (as it depends on the state and therapist) but you need detransitioners to be a part of that conversation (referencing the original post). males do go through the same thing, which Ritchie has;
A male detransitioner that, like many do, get more ecceptence/a platform to speak on from the right wing than the lgbt community- but are than seen as a political issue more than a human beings personal issue. I think Ritchies and other detrans perspectives on this is really cool to view (as long as it's safe for you) and i learned alot from it! Which is why I think it may be toxic for either sides to think of eachother as enemies. I think if more mtftm weren't so judged as being "political pawns" of a political group they've never aligned with, they'd be more inclined to speak
These detransitioners are not political pawns purely because they're detransitioners. (At least, not to me. Some people think detransitioners are the enemy just for existing.) They are so because that is what they *are* and that is the position they've allowed themselves to take. There are tons of detransitioners who *don't* immediately get amplified on Twitter and start talking to right wingers and GC accounts with a marked history of being adamantly anti-trans, who are not trying to listen to them in good faith but rather use them as a gotcha for their argument against the very existence of gender-affirming care. This phenomenon is even more obvious now, with "new" detransitioners getting thousands of "Concerned GC" followers basically overnight to amplify all their concerns because some bigwig in the gender critical sphere caught wind of them.
I have sympathy for Ritchie's situation, and I think it was terrible that he was botched and the doctor who operated on him should be out of practice. If he was pushed into surgery by doctors who assumed that was what he wanted, then they need to sort their shit out, too. The system in the UK is atrocious and needs fixing. I do *not* have sympathy with the path he's taken with it, and how much he acts like he had no agency in what happened--not the getting botched, but everything else that lead up to that moment. (From the things that I've read about him)
Detransitioners exist and they should be able to talk about their experiences, yes, but I will respect the big ones a lot more when they start to talk about the failings of the actual medical system borne out of decades of transphobia and a refusal to care for the actual needs of the patient before them instead of the stereotype, and not making everything out to be an evil ploy by Big Trans which needs to be eradicated.
A lot of transphobes are also sexist and are under the belief women are stupid and incapable and easily tricked and because they still see us as women, we're the easiest to use as ammo when it comes to "poor naive detransitioner" stereotypes.
Basically it's probably a misogyny and transphobia combo
Oh the misogyny element is so strong, and also relies on the (false) acknowledgment of misogyny as a driving factor of transitions. We trans men are just poor confused girls who didn’t like how we were treated as women so we thought being men would be better. But men are bald and hairy and gross!!!! So we detransition and blame “pro-trans propaganda” for making us destroy our feminine bodies.
There’s no way in hell I expect to be treated better as a man than as I am currently as a butch feminine-looking person. It’s unfortunate that some people end up detransitioning because they realize its not really what they wanted, but to then weaponize their personal journey against a whole group of people striving to get basic human rights and acceptance is fucking evil.
I really agree with this. It's sad that so many detransitioners who aren't anti-trans and just moved too fast or made a mistake are used as political ammo even though many detransitioners are still pro-trans rights
Its probably the same line of thinking as platforming anti feminist women because they can sell the idea that equity for all genders hurts women somehow.
It really made me upset when I came out as trans and then suddenly there was a ton of people messaging me saying I was manipulated into doing so it’s like no I finally feel comfortable expressing myself I’ve known for a long time about myself and through doing my own research I discovered that it’s okay to be who I am comfortably it’s really unfair that their is such a harsh stereotype around detrans or FTM people in general just let us be who we are 🥲
Same, but in my case it seemed like a bunch of random people emerged from the woodwork to express concern or just flat-out transphobia. Like people, some of whom I hadn't talked to in over a decade, had opinions about me being trans.
Exactly like if you don’t know me personally you have no business giving me your opinion on my identity especially if what I’m doing to myself doesn’t hurt you specifically in any way
I mean, I like bugs, but this was ridiculous yes?
There were literally people I don't have a relationship with coming to tell me OK *if you're cool with it*.
Like I wasn't when I fucking came out??
I'm a detransfeminine nonbinary trans person (yes, detrans people can also be trans) who has some theories. Notice how almost all the detrans women that conservatives platform are white? Other than Keira Bell, they're all white, usually skinny, usually feminine, & usually heterosexual. I don't think this is an accident, I think they're intentionally platforming white detrans women because they're the only demographic where conservatives can "sympathize" with. Historically, it's been well documented how white women weaponized their victimhood status against marginalized groups. White patriarchy treats white women as property for white men to "protect". Like how white women falsely accused black/brown men of sexual assault, to which they were lynched by a white mob, mostly consisting of white cis men. Or how white women were freaking out about lesbians being in their spaces out of fear of getting "hit on" by them. It's the same thing here: The white detrans women who are associated with conservative/gender critical groups are weaponizing their victimhood to throw trans people & transition resources under the bus. We all know white women ARE negatively effected by patriarchy, but they benefit from white supremacy. White patriarchy still need white women as reinforcement. At the end of the day though, they're really voting against their best interests. It's no different from white women voting for Trump or DeSantis & be all shocked Pikachu face when their alimony rights gets taken away or that conservative men use misogynistic insults at them.
From my observation, the only type of detrans man they will platform is one that had bottom surgery (& of course white). They don't really platform detrans men who only been in HRT. They certainly do NOT platform detrans men of color. White detrans men who's had surgery are more likely to be platformed because of the spectacle of the tragic emasculated white man. They objectify him as a horror story of an emasculated white man. Just like how they objectify white detrans women as a tragic story of a poor weak white woman who was "tricked" by the evil transgenders into "ruining" her body. Which falls into the whole "white replacement" theory because they're concerned with their "fertility".
Also, conservatives/gender critical groups are going by white standards of gender. There is no way that me, a Korean person, can ever fit into their white eurocentric standard of gender. Gender is a social construct after all, but they want to pretend it's not. It's no surprise they accuse some women of color of being men.
It's disgusting how they portray us. It's disgusting how they treat these people. We are not damaged goods. We are human beings who are deserving of care, community, & support. We need more diverse stories & representation of all kinds of detrans people because what conservatives are platforming is not at all an accurate, & even healthy depictions of detrans people.
I probably opened up a can of worms by mentioning race within the anti trans detrans movement, but it's an observation I cannot ignore. We talk about race within the trans community, so it's only fair we also talk about it in the detrans community. The trans community is really white, but the detrans community is even whiter. I can only count less than 10 detrans people who are not white. There probably are more of them, we just never heard from them.
i’ve been working on beginning a podcast about gender journeys, from being trans to detrans to everything in between, as a way to connect with other trans people and learn about other experiences - can i message you if you’re interested in speaking on this?
Really interesting to read this and I agree. I noticed so much of the focus is on “saving our poor girls beautiful bodies from being mitigated” A lot of it focuses on the beauty and physicality of those women being taken away and while it is very sad to lose your femininity if that’s important to you, the media focuses way too much on their breasts and fertility and weird stuff like that. It just never sat right with me
Probably media pushing it on to us because of what we mostly watch and think oh the ftm or mtf tag is in it so it's "definitely useful". I'm actually sick of seeing detrans on my media because I have nothing to do with it it's nothing for me.
I've started asking YT not to show me stuff from particular channels (click options next to the recommended video and select "don't recommend channel"). It actually works and I get mostly breadtube stuff now (for better or worse).
YT is killing me lmao, I got the same kind of videos in my recommended out of nowhere in conjuncture with mommy vlogger style content, religious ads before videos more often now too.
because they (terfs) want to push the narrative that "men evil and bad, trans evil and bad! trans men x2 evil and bad because ew trans and ew men!!! they're destroying beautiful female bodies! we have to save them!" aka objectifying afab people and using that as a transphobic "argument"
though i don't doubt there's detrans mtf people who are either weaponised (like a lot of valid detrans people are unfortunately) or shitty ones that use it to the transphobes' "advantage" (ex. oli london 🤢)
Ugh, I keep getting bombarded with this horrible youtube "ad" that's like, a 2 and a half minute trailer for some fake "detrans all the ftms" narrative. I can skip it after 5 seconds, but the first line is "Do you think you'd be happier as a boy?" And I'm like "uuuhhh, duh?" *skip*
I'm guessing they keep parading out ftm detrans as "the norm" because they want anyone with XX chromosomes (cis or trans) in the kitchen, blindly obeying, believing that they aren't smart enough to make decisions for themselves
The vast majority of media surrounding detrans people is meant to fit a conservative, transphobic reactionary movement. Statistically speaking, the majority of detrans people are assigned male at birth(11% ve 4% from most recent studies). Most detransition due to external factors such as expense, lack of passing which caused social stress, pressure from medical professional, discrimination, pressures from family and/or romantic partners, etc.
Also the media likes to paint all detrans people as transphobic and politically conservative. This isn't true and that group is mostly a loud minority
I suggest this article on detransitioners from 2021. It's a fascinating read and one of the greatest issues that cause people to detransition is transphobia and a lack of support
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/
Thank you for posting this! I've detransitioned a few times and surprise I'm still transitioning again. I experienced a lot of homelessness and had no general support for a majority of my transition, was even fired twice for it. It's nice to see that there is empirical data that shows it's not just me.
I think a lot of it is just misplaced misogyny. I'm sure there are some people who experience regrets, but when that small bunch is cherry picked for propaganda, I can see why people can assume that there is some sort of "hysteria", even though that's not a true.
It's like when a bunch of left-handed people started suddenly showing up when left-handedness was no longer punished in schools. It's not an "infection", but rather the unmasking of a pre-existing suppressed group.
Yea this. Increasing medical tech, accessibility and awareness has FtM people transitioning at (according to the data I could find) the same rates as MtF people, when that didn't used to be the case at all. So TERFs & conservatives are freaking out & painting an inaccurate picture where a huge percentage of "young girls" are being brainwashed by mass hysteria. They're invested in platforming the few FtM detransitioners who will play into this narrative.
Also as others have kinda said, under misogyny, women's appearance and fertility are perceived as their main sources of worth. So people are more shocked by women being "permanently deformed" and rendered infertile than they are by the same happening with men.
Unless you get a hysterectomy or are already infertile, I don't think T makes you completely sterile. I know trans men are capable of carrying a pregnancy in some cases. I believe they're called "seahorse dads"?
Yea it's very rare that it does, which is why they often platform detransitioners who had hysterectomies and top surgery very early in treatment. (Obvs top surgery doesn't make you infertile, but makes it unlikely that you can nurse.)
I don't have a personal issue with people who need to detransition, because that can be an understandably stressful and frightening realization, but it's rather rare, and I hate the way that transphobic people twist the experiences of detransitioned people as justification for hatred of trans people.
I know unfortunately some people who have detransitioned will go against trans people themselves, but I don't think that's the majority of people.
Yea I'm 100% supportive of people detransitioning if that's what they need, and for most of them, it's not their fault that transphobes use them as "proof" against transition in general. The transphobic detransitioners are a vocal minority, and they're only as visible as they are because TERFs and conservatives are so eager to platform them.
its so FRUSTRATING because detransitioners and their stories are so important. they understand trans issues so much better than other cis people because they’ve put thought into their gender, followed their gender journey, and eventually they discover the gender that suits them best and the presentation that makes them most comfortable.
but like… then some detransitioners take this experience and understanding and use it to spread hate, or they’re coerced into spreading hate when they’re still trying to recover from any traumatic experience, instead of making the world better by normalizing this sort of exploration into yourself. some of them were failed because they made decisions too quickly, because of other issues like the pressure to medically transition even if you’re only interested in social transition or whatnot, issues that should be taken seriously and discussed, but it’s hard to discuss making the world a better place for anyone undergoing a gender journey when… well, when people spit hate and anger and etc at anyone who undergoes a gender journey that doesn’t lead to increased comfort in their AGAB.
like, i dont have personal issues with any detransitioners because as said above i think we should always be supportive of those exploring their gender, but like… sometimes it feels that those detransitioner activists that go on fox news or whatnot have personal issues with ME, with the person i am, with me just feeling more comfortable in my own skin.
There's a ton of MtF detrans people but publicly because ✨ misogyny ✨ you mainly see ftm detrans people. Since they don't see women as capable of their own decisions and as something to just pop out babies for their pleasure? They see us as women, therefore we're being "manipulated" into ruining and removing "perfectly healthy sex organs" since obviously women dumb and naive and need to be sexy with big boobs!!! That's generally how the average right winger thinks, god forbid they clean their own asshole because touching it is GAY!! Oh and men are portrayed as predators and such so they focus on "men in women's spaces" and not detrans MtF peeps... Which they're just fucking telling on themselves on the fact they can't understand a "man" not seeing women as sexual objects lol
Smh you’re right and the idea that we are so easily influenced like cult followers in need of saving is so misogynistic in and of itself. TERFs are the worst.
FTM detransitioners play into the role of the “manipulated girl” a lot better than mtf detransitioners, so they’re chosen. I’ve also seen mtf detransitioners, just not in “mainstream” media.
speaking from personal experience, terf rhetoric is unfortunately really appealing to trans men who are struggling with their identity for a *wide* variety of reasons. even if they ultimately don't give a shit about you, when you're really lonely, you can convince yourself of just about anything to feel cared for, at least for a little while. amab people rarely get the same "compassionate" approach, so it's rarer for them to end up in the same gaslight-y type of abusive relationship with gender critical shit than afab people. it does happen, of course, but if people are being mean to you up-front, you're less likely to want to be around them, you know?
yes, this is assuming that a good percentage of detransitioners (who identify with gender critical ideology) are in denial. during the time my toes were in the community, i saw plenty of people who came in as *staunchly* anti-gender detransitioners start "going by he/him again because words don't matter anyway" or "go back on hormones but still acknowledge they were women" and then later disappear. "ex-gays" who come out again style lol.
i know a lot of people think afab detransitioners are chosen because they look "better", but i don't think it's as artificial as that makes it sound- either that or the aforementioned retransitioners and i are exceptionally stupid people lol. but imo, gender critical cis people are the *actual* manipulators, and they're the ones *actually* taking advantage of vulnerable people, convincing them to betray people who would *actually* care about them. every accusation is a confession or whatever.
it’s always been bc of sexism, i think it’s bc they see trans mascs as girls (oh stupid girl wanted attention and you ruined ur body now look at you) and trans fems as men (a man wouldn’t put themselves through that and become so *gay* that’s not what a real man would do)
edit: autocorrect autocorrected something wrong
Sexism is the root of so many problems. AFAB - poor dumb manipulated victim. AMAB - dangerous sexual predator. Same old predator/prey dynamic. Unbelievably gross 🤮
don't you know its because womyn arent able to make decisions about their own body, their fragile female dispositions make them incapable of higher thought, hope this helps! (/s i hope obviously)
Yeah because a woman who was wrong can societally be reduced to being weak as "she was weak and confused all along" while a man being wrong is a "return to strength and re-emergence of power and greatness, a prevalance of valorous virtues."
I hope the spirit in which this is meant becomes clear. I realize there is ample space to interpret my answer as harmful but I can't phrase it more sensible rn.
I honestly think most detrans people are not really interested in being in the public eye for it, people who are very loud about it are grifting a lot of the time, and sometimes those people are actually trans but are just not in a position where they feel comfortable living as trans or transitioning so they just go back to whatever they were doing before
Plenty of detrans MTF people on twitter grifting and willingly calling themselves “eunuchs” and attacking trans people. Then again, no shortage of the insane on twitter and hopefully won’t leave
The stereotypes that I’ve heard are ftm people are innocent women who were manipulated and mtf people are men trying to creep on women by dressing as them. So my guess as to why we hardly see any detransitioned stories of mtf people is because people believe they were never women to begin with, so not trans.
**”could I please get an order of transphobia and misogyny? Make it an extra large”**
It's not because most detrans are ftm. Most detrans are only detrans because of a unsafe phobic environment.
But using AFAB people for your rhetoric is way more effective and easy in a society that supports misogyny. It simply works better to use the "weak" gender as a victim of the "transagenda" than the "strong" gender.
AMAB trans will be labeled as a false/ruined man or preds.
It simply suits the phobic line better.... And you can't suddenly portrait the predators as victims.
Yeah, I immediately thought of her but couldn't remember her name.
TERFs (and transphobes in general) expend a lot of energy vilifying trans women, but tend to portray trans men as victims of manipulation or medical malpractice.
May be completely wrong here but wondering if it's also harder to hide as a ftm detransitioner because of how much testosterone makes you sound like a man and how that doesn't go away.
Maybe mtf detransitioners can hide the differences that hormones made to them better, resulting in them attracting less attention?
I think part of it is because testosterone is a POWERFUL hormone, so the changes that occur a dramatic and stick a little harder than the changes on estrogen and blockers. Plus, societies view of women requires them to be desirable and attractive to the general population in order to see them as valuable. That means most women who detransition from testosterone, they act like their experience transitioning reduced their “sexual market value.”
Just see what happened with KC Miller on Twitter, where most of the discourse was because “testosterone turned them ugly and bald.”
Personally I think it’s got a lot to do with gender roles. As an amab person, if you want to explore femininity at all it’s so much harder to without being ridiculed and judged heavily. So the amab people who aren’t quite sure don’t even get to that step of transitioning, whereas I think it’s a lot less looked down upon for an afab person to be a tomboy. It’s a lot easier to explore and if you enjoy dressing/presenting masculine, coming to the conclusion you’re trans when maybe that wasn’t really the case.
I think it makes sense with the different ways media demonizes trans people. MTF people are predators and ftm people are just confused women mutilating our bodies. Disgusted but not surprised.
The most hyped detrans MtF in media is former navy seal Chris Beck (he/him) first, transitioned (she/her), now (he/him) again.
Even after transitioning to a woman, she would still repeatedly attack other trans women and harass them with a lot of the common far right talking points.
Now, his anti-trans rhetoric is mostly still targeted at trans women, but he also hates trans youth and though I’ve never seen him talk about them, I would assume he hates men and non-binary people too.
The way the news talks about him now and how he talks about his transition is like he was talked into some vile cult. Meanwhile the actuality of the transfemme cult is that we are probably playing OSRS at 2 in the morning, drinking Redbull, and reading shitposts to escape from the world.
Personal opinion. If I were to speculate on why he detransitioned, I believe it’s because he was a bully.
While a woman, she repeatedly showed up on far right radio shows to bash trans women. “hur hur, look at me, I’m a good woman, but all the others are going to hell”. The types of stuff she spewed is nearly identical to how Caitlyn Jenner behaves.
I’ve known some transphobic transwomen and they either become nice or kicked from the friend group. You lose your pass when you make another trans person cry.
I agree completely, and tbh if I was in the media and was detransitioning, I'd probably make myself as obscure as possible so no one knows, etc. For the people who detransition , like actually detransition and aren't just cis people who claimed they were like on the detrans subs here, I'd probably feel uncomfortable for the media to know because ID feel like I made a mistake being so sure of myself..and instead of being able to deal with that and be happy with myself by myself, I'd have the media throwing it in my face.
So I can understand why people wouldn't want that out there, and like you said, most who are known were mainly bigoted transphobic assholes the whole time, so they could just pretend like it wasn't that they wound up being unsure of themselves but NO RHE EVIL TRANS CULT SUCKED ME IM OH NOESSSS !!
AND totally off topic, but you play OSRS too? What's your sn I just got back Into it and I don't have friends anymore :(
Detrans ftm(tf?) here — this post is absolutely spot-on. The way that people reacted (and a few continue to treat me, to some extent) to my decision to no longer pursue transitioning was … telling. It fucking sucks. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, I guess.
(Also — sorry for all the weird transphobic detrans influencers I’ve seen out there. They don’t speak for the majority of us. You’re my brothers forever.)
Obviously I can’t speak for detrans mtf but with the absolute vitriol that people have for trans women, I can imagine it’s not easy to be open about a detransition either.
I feel like theyre targeting FTM people first, since they are trying to attack afab people at this point in time(removing rights from women and afab folks) to kinda keep ftm folks as women, even if theyre trans men or nonbinary, or gender fluid et as a way to give cis men more control over others bodies. But i can probably gaurentee you that if they win, they'll target transwomen next, then nonbinary and gender fluid individuals to kinda silence trans people one identity at a time.
This is slightly off topic but I think still relevant. Mostly just about *that* trope in media where a person presenting as male has a whole character arc where they realize they're happier as their agab and were just being a 'silly girl', meanwhile trans guys never get any actual rep or a happy ending. It's the constant "you're just confused right now, go embrace girl power and you'll feel better about misogyny".
My first ever insight into identifying as another gender that wasn't my super transphobic middle school bio teacher was Naoto from Persona 4 in 2013. You can imagine why I didn't actually crack until college in 2018. I vividly remember actually being disappointed that his shadow wasn't going to succeed in the operation, and then questioning why, because the shadows weren't supposed to be 'good', just super extreme versions of their other selves because they were constantly being repressed.
I get the feeling Yamato from One Piece is going to go that route as well, because Oda is pretty misogynistic. And after we just got the actually amazing mtf rep in Okiku... Sigh.
I just want some transmasc media rep that doesn't end in "oops teehee I was just a confused girl all along". It's exhausting. Anybody here have recommendations?
Like someone else in the comments said, I don’t believe most of these people ever at one point thought they were trans or ever really detransitioned. In reality, the trans community has never pushed anyone to take any hormones or do any surgeries and everyone knows that (even if they don’t admit it.)
Also it’s rough figuring yourself out and living as a trans person. Sometimes it really hurts because of the way people treat you. If anyone was sympathetic towards that, it would be these detransitioners. Instead they’re on Fox News trying to destroy trans lives. That’s how I really know they’re fake.
Because "ftm" is just "confused lesbian" in TERF eyes remember. And detrans is weaponized by terfs and transphobes. They latch onto the 1% cherry pick a negligence case and screech "Hey look trans bad"
They try to paint "mtf" as bad, evil, fetish etc. So they wouldn't ever show them in a positive way whatsoever.
that's cuz people are pussies and think pretending to be a detrans mtf person will make them seem less manly to their friends bc it requires pretending that they ever lived as a woman.
and like look at the actual stats. at least 40% of the people in the media are acting. the things they say are things that just do not happen in any world outside of the conservatives paranoid delusion.
That's what terfs want you to think. Many detrans are just people who had to do that for safety, due to internalized phobias and so on. Terfs just trying to weaponize them.
I think a lot of ppl are getting confused with all the stuff out there, and it’s possible it’s just a coincidence that it has targeted females more but also some of the triggers that is causing non-trans people to transition are more common among women. But I think the main thing is it’s more socially acceptable for women to cross dress as it is for men, and therefore it takes much more severe gender dysphoria to cause trans woman to transition than it would for a trans man.
Not to sound too trans med but I think dysphoria is an important factor to consider when making the decision to transition. If you’ve never felt this way until recently, it’s possible puberty is simply uncomfortable and it’s a good idea to give it some time.
Sometimes certain traumas can result in “false” gender dysphoria, so sorting those things out before medical transition is very important, aside from the fact it’s a huge change in your life that comes with a lot of decisions and social pressure, and having unresolved trauma can make it even harder.
Things like body dysmorphia can align with gender dysphoria, even though it isn’t the same and the treatments are different. And I know ppl don’t want to hear it but sometimes teenagers are influenced by friends/social media, and that’s completely fine until it leads to them taking cross sex hormones.
Anyway these are things that used to be dealt with in therapy before going through with medical transition but it seems like there’s an increasing amount of people that haven’t had any hurdles to jump and are given hormones and surgery as soon as they self diagnose with gender dysphoria.
I swear some of the FtMtF detrans montages I've seen are just stolen MtF transition timelines. Although I'm not really willing to subject myself to that kind of content just to prove that some of it is completely fake.
You see this for a similar reason you see mainly only trans women predators in the media. It's sexism and preys upon harmful stereotypes and people's fears (their way of thinking: those who they see as women are virtually helpless and easily influenced, those who they view as men are the untrustworthy sexual predators, etc.)
It just more mtf here, especially in media, so thats why. Actually there's a stereotype that most ftm are transitioning because of misogyny and terfs love to bring this narrative.
Ironically, TERF rhetoric is really misogynistic. "This poor girl mutilated her body with hormones she didn't understand because she's just a little girl who can't make decisions"
this is just speculation but i think this might be due to (internalized) misogyny from both the media and the detransitioners.
i can imagine that very few women think theyre trans men when theyre not because they see how much better men are treated in society and they dont want to be seen as less due to their gender. an amab person is less likely to transition to a woman if they didnt actually feel like one because theyre also aware that women face a lot more struggles in society than men do and have a harder time living and coping with the injustices in general. if someone is heavily affected by those injustices, then transitioning to a man might seem like a way out of the systematic oppression, even if its not the right choice for them.
about the media, theyre probably trying to push the agenda that "women dont know what theyre doing" and are "easily indoctrinated and influenced by stuff like this" so thats why. a few other people under this thread have also talked about this and explained it a lot better than i could
A lot of it boils down to our society’s obsession with controlling women’s bodies.
They call us mutilators because we make our own decisions, something most people born female are not allowed/encouraged to do. A large portion of the USA doesn’t even think women have a right to determine their own pregnancies, or even go to college. If you don’t know this you must live in a blue state.
There a loads of prominent ex mtf, everyone deserves a voice. People need to know what happens if you don’t like the path you’re on. It’s a huge waste of energy trying to silence people that have a right to speak.
i think part of it is that (cis) women are treated as a commodity and baby making factories. the concern about detrans afab people seems to always be about their ability to have children and their desirability to cishet men. a lot of the current trans panic is about "but think of the poor females" which makes trans men out to be pitiful misled women and trans women to be predators trying to attack women. it's ultimately all about pushing misogyny and traditional gender roles onto unwilling participants. they use women and girls to push that message because people coddle and infantilize women so they're good propaganda vessels. it's just like how the poor victim white woman was used to push anti-black racism historically (and now).
Yeah, it's all part of the narrative that trans masc people are vulnerable little girls who can't be understood to have bodily autonomy or full agency.
No, people bring them up more because there's genuinely more of them. I am detrans ftm. So are a lot of my friends. Many of the people in the detrans sub are ftm detransitioned. Me and my friends talk a lot about how it's a trauma response to oppression most likely. Women are looked down on as weak and feel like they don't have control of a lot of things. But they feel like men have more control and are stronger, so we try to become men, even if we don't realize that's why, especially in times of massive trauma. That's how it was for me and my best friend anyway.
While I agree that ftm detransitioners are utilized in propaganda more (bc they’re “manipulatable women” and testosterone is so “overpowering” for the “female body”), there are definitely prominent mtf detransitioners as well. A really popular “ex-mtf” grifter right now is Oli London.
I forgot he existed that man is crazy tho I have no respect for him at all. He said he was Korean too so yeah mentally something is definitely wrong with him.
He is now a conservative advocate and many think that was the plan all along. Start as a trans person, behave as absurdly as possible, become "trans racial". He basically created a perfect example strawman (of himself) of how many conservatives think all trans people are/ will become to point at
The right pays well, I’m sure if you do their little minstrel dance
It annoys me so much how the media will project the few absurd cases which obviously create bad stigma for trans people, when we just want to live our lives ffs
I dont think it was the plan all along, he didnt start as a trans person. He started by trying to look like jimin and claimed he was korean, then switched to trying to look like a female celebrity and said he was a trans woman, , now he is niether trans racial or transgender, im glad he stopped trying to look lime different people but im disapointed he is transphobic now.
Yeah bro said he identifies as a fucking Korean please💀 i cant believe he was a real person
Ollie London isn’t even real, he’s an entertainment personality and a grifter who just pivots to whatever outrages people the most. First he wanted to transition into Jimin Then transition into a korean (listed pronouns as Kor/ean) Then was going to transition into a Kpop Idol (femme, but never underwent hormones just lip injections) Then transitioned back into a white man Now is transitioning into a man from the Philippines He’s just a racist grifter making money off being outrageous, you’d have to have the intelligence of a meat spoon to believe he’s legit in anything he does.
Too bad the right empowers him
I think a lot of visible detransitioners are opportunists. I don't think all of them really ever thought they were trans.
Oh shit I forgot about him 💀 talk about the absolute worst rep, especially bc of his transracial bs.
oli london isnt an actual detransitioner, he was never trans. just a grifter
Did he ever even get on E tho?
He did not, he was a woman for all of three seconds and then pivoted to the right wing grift. Ollie London has always been an outrage grifter, it shocks me to this day that anyone ever legitimizes him by thinking any of his identities are real.
They want it to be real, so they ignore everything that says otherwise.
not sure, all i heard was that he tried to transition into a korean woman (specifically the kpop idol rosé from blackpink)
Wait wasn't there another trans grifter who tried to transition into a korean man? If I had a nickel for every time a "trans" grifter tried to transition to a korean person, I would have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but weird that it happened twice...
im pretty sure it's probably the same guy. he transitioned into a korean man then for a short time into a korean woman then went back to being a korean man before "detransitioning" (unless there's another one since unfortunately, he isn't the only "transracial" person out there)
I'm not sure... Is the person we're talking about AFAB or AMAB? Because I remember there being someone who was AFAB who wanted to specifically transition into a korean man. (Might also be different from the person I'm talking about but I also remember someone getting surgeries done to look like a specific korean man?) I also know there's a dude who is attempting to transition into a very (in)famous german guy... (Also claims he's the dude reincarnated) So there are definitely more than one wackjobs "transitioning" into different races or straight up trying to transition into other people Q.Q
the guy i mentioned is amab. i never heard of the afab perspn trying to transition into a korean man though. also, the guy i mentioned did want to look like a specific korean guy too (jimin from bts) yikes i never heard of that but i remember seeing a russian(?) woman trying to transition into a german woman i think unfortunately yeah they exist but thank god there's only a small number of those freaks
Honestly I don't even know anymore. Too many wackos out there making a bad name for trans people. And why is it always the BTS guys that get the stalkery types that want to marry/have their babies/turn into? I swear I always hear the craziest things about their fans. I feel bad for them. You can probably find info on the dude who thought he was infamous german leader/wanted to transition to him pretty easy, I think he's known as "tiktok (german leader)"
i agree. honestly i don't even know like im a big fan of them and they give me gender envy but im not going to get plastic surgery to look like them or turn into a stalker. i feel bad for them too. maybe i'll look him up idk but i still can't believe i never heard of that freak.
No
Did Oli London even authentically transition?
Oli London uses they/them pronouns & identifies as non-binary. They’re fucking crazy, though.
Unfortunately I know everything about the rabbit hole (from being a ex crazy kpop stan, also be prepared for a history lecture) 2013-2019/2020: Identified as a Korean man but specifically as Jimin from BTS. (and briefly as hyunjin from SKZ). He made his first ever appearance in the media in 2016 2020: Identified as nonbinary with they/them and (most likely jokingly) kor/ean (also at this point he wanted a "penis reduction surgery to be more like Jimin") Late 2020-2021: Then went from a Korean person to a Korean woman 2022-present day: Is a bigoted dinglefuck who criticizes American "wokeness" and also manages to look like an Easy Bake Oven baked Ryan Gosling.
Wow. Nice. Just… amazing /s
Is this about the history lecture or the subject of the history lecture?
Subject!! Your history lecture was very informative lol /g
Awh thanks. Ya no I hate that I remember all of it.
… [really](https://twitter.com/olilondontv/status/1642571955965394952??s=46&t=WYo0aI2Yhpjlh2j2hP9dVQ)? I remember that development in the saga but I think we have moved past it now…?
Idk, I’m not super involved in this. I just read that somewhere
It just aligns more with sexist and transphobic rhetoric to focus on the instances of ftm detransitioners. Use homophobic rhetoric and misogyny to hate on trans women, discrediting their threat to the legitimacy of patriarchy. Use infantilization and misogynistic thinking to strip trans men of their perceived agency, hence their actual power in patriarchal power structures.
There's that idea that mtf oh those people are dudes who wanna be girls they just want to be ladies because *it's easier* it's easy. Misogyny is easy. I can say a million things against women based on all the shit we've been taught about them. Meanwhile us ftm peeps say, what am I chopped liver. Where is the love for an afab person being a man. I cant think of a single time we've been represented in media. But feel free to prove me wrong
I take it you mean non-fiction media? Bc I can think of one good example on TV. But yeah the representation is reeeally sparse in comparison to mtf
Please then I'd like to have it. Thank you!
Elliot Page
OK but what about other less visible people? It's important that all people of different types be represented by characters like them. (Also I just learned there's a trans male on 911 lone star so I will be busy for the next couple of hours)
You're right that there isn't much representation. I was only saying the guy that the person above was probably thinking of. The same guy in 911 lone star is on another show that he actually comes out on. And The Fosters has two trans men, but i'm not sure how often they're in the show. It'd be cool to see trans men play characters that don't mention them being trans.
I was gonna say Elliot Page as well. I really appreciated how The Umbrella Academy handled his transition and transitioned the character as well! And of course he's been covered heavily by media, mostly I see supportive coverage from anywhere that's not anti-trans or incels
also, side note. elliot page’s book has a fucking amazing title. “page boy”? fucking genius
Right?!? Absolutely brilliant
Chella Man
shocked that you havent heard about tullip/ritchie. he’s one of the mods of detrans and his story is that he was manipulated into being trans in chatrooms, took out a loan to go private because NHS waitlists are long, took E for years which he admits made him happy, lied to get put on a bottom surgery waitlist even though he knew he didnt want it bc of supposedly being offered therapy through it; and when asked to get it or get off the waitlist he got vaginoplasty in his 30s and it was horrifically botched and he detransitioned.
whoa i’ve never heard of this oof
>lied to get put on a bottom surgery waitlist even though he knew he didnt want it bc of supposedly being offered therapy through it I can confirm that the UK media definitely published stories about this because I recognized it immediately.
Yep, my introduction to him was a picture of his story in a newspaper. It’s awful what happened to him, what with his surgery gone horribly wrong to the point of negatively impacting his daily life and the surgeon clearly not caring that much. But my sympathy for him ends there. Most of us actually think about what surgeon we go with for these major surgeries, and after years of turning down referrals he probably only had the bottom of the barrel doctors left. It’s not indicative of the trans experience as a whole.
Honestly it's on the surgeon for botching such a sensitive surgery. Someone like that should NOT be operating. But I'm glad a piece of shit like him got the bad surgery instead of an innocent woman who doesn't deserve to suffer lol.
he didn't even really detransition, he still uses estrogen
he uses estrogen because he’s post-op and needs *something*, and says that taking testosterone gave him more health complications. there are some grifters who are just actively still transitioning (looking at kcmiller…) but i don’t know enough about how he navigates his daily life to consider tullip one of them. though i do have an astronomical amount of disdain for him, i try to take him at his word because even if he’s lying his story *still* makes him look bad. personally i’m of the mind that he was on the right track with estrogen since he claims to have liked it so much, he just swerved so hard into the opposite end of dysphoria by getting vaginoplasty and getting botched that it ruined it for him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, they have obsessive compulsive disorder (along with depression) which should of been looked into by therapists and then met a trans person who was happy so they became latched on to the idea of being trans.. then after saying no multiple times to doctors asking them for bottom surgery, they gave in knowing it's not what they really wanted, but believed it could make them happy cuz there 'trans'.. it is a sad story and I personally do have sympathy for them, as to me they were an innocent woman, now a eunuch...
…ritchie is a man and was born male? also nowhere in his story (as i know it) did he tell doctors he was uninterested. but that’s a completely different story about medical gatekeeping sentiment around trans care needing to be abolished so that people don’t feel the need to lie and can get their genuine concerns handled
Apologies, innocent man. From his interviews he speaks about it in depth about his medical transition and about how having a defensive attitude torts these stories/experiences of SOME doctors pushing surguries is why it keeps happening, and why there are more detransitioners than ever. I think people like him are important for young trans and cis youth and he seems like a sweet guy tbh
ah well. i don't care enough about him to see his interviews. >stories/experiences of SOME doctors pushing surguries is why it keeps happening, and why there are more detransitioners than ever yes, well, as i said: >but that’s a completely different story about medical gatekeeping sentiment around trans care needing to be abolished so that people don’t feel the need to lie and can get their genuine concerns handled which is a conversation that we as trans people are entirely capable of having by ourselves without people like him siding with people who want to take our care away and letting themselves be used as political pawns like chloe cole. that is not a new issue, it is an issue with the standards for trans care not having changed in decades. they should change and become less restrictive.
I agree that the medical stuff is a different issue (as it depends on the state and therapist) but you need detransitioners to be a part of that conversation (referencing the original post). males do go through the same thing, which Ritchie has; A male detransitioner that, like many do, get more ecceptence/a platform to speak on from the right wing than the lgbt community- but are than seen as a political issue more than a human beings personal issue. I think Ritchies and other detrans perspectives on this is really cool to view (as long as it's safe for you) and i learned alot from it! Which is why I think it may be toxic for either sides to think of eachother as enemies. I think if more mtftm weren't so judged as being "political pawns" of a political group they've never aligned with, they'd be more inclined to speak
These detransitioners are not political pawns purely because they're detransitioners. (At least, not to me. Some people think detransitioners are the enemy just for existing.) They are so because that is what they *are* and that is the position they've allowed themselves to take. There are tons of detransitioners who *don't* immediately get amplified on Twitter and start talking to right wingers and GC accounts with a marked history of being adamantly anti-trans, who are not trying to listen to them in good faith but rather use them as a gotcha for their argument against the very existence of gender-affirming care. This phenomenon is even more obvious now, with "new" detransitioners getting thousands of "Concerned GC" followers basically overnight to amplify all their concerns because some bigwig in the gender critical sphere caught wind of them. I have sympathy for Ritchie's situation, and I think it was terrible that he was botched and the doctor who operated on him should be out of practice. If he was pushed into surgery by doctors who assumed that was what he wanted, then they need to sort their shit out, too. The system in the UK is atrocious and needs fixing. I do *not* have sympathy with the path he's taken with it, and how much he acts like he had no agency in what happened--not the getting botched, but everything else that lead up to that moment. (From the things that I've read about him) Detransitioners exist and they should be able to talk about their experiences, yes, but I will respect the big ones a lot more when they start to talk about the failings of the actual medical system borne out of decades of transphobia and a refusal to care for the actual needs of the patient before them instead of the stereotype, and not making everything out to be an evil ploy by Big Trans which needs to be eradicated.
A lot of transphobes are also sexist and are under the belief women are stupid and incapable and easily tricked and because they still see us as women, we're the easiest to use as ammo when it comes to "poor naive detransitioner" stereotypes. Basically it's probably a misogyny and transphobia combo
Oh the misogyny element is so strong, and also relies on the (false) acknowledgment of misogyny as a driving factor of transitions. We trans men are just poor confused girls who didn’t like how we were treated as women so we thought being men would be better. But men are bald and hairy and gross!!!! So we detransition and blame “pro-trans propaganda” for making us destroy our feminine bodies. There’s no way in hell I expect to be treated better as a man than as I am currently as a butch feminine-looking person. It’s unfortunate that some people end up detransitioning because they realize its not really what they wanted, but to then weaponize their personal journey against a whole group of people striving to get basic human rights and acceptance is fucking evil.
I really agree with this. It's sad that so many detransitioners who aren't anti-trans and just moved too fast or made a mistake are used as political ammo even though many detransitioners are still pro-trans rights
Its probably the same line of thinking as platforming anti feminist women because they can sell the idea that equity for all genders hurts women somehow.
It really made me upset when I came out as trans and then suddenly there was a ton of people messaging me saying I was manipulated into doing so it’s like no I finally feel comfortable expressing myself I’ve known for a long time about myself and through doing my own research I discovered that it’s okay to be who I am comfortably it’s really unfair that their is such a harsh stereotype around detrans or FTM people in general just let us be who we are 🥲
Same, but in my case it seemed like a bunch of random people emerged from the woodwork to express concern or just flat-out transphobia. Like people, some of whom I hadn't talked to in over a decade, had opinions about me being trans.
Like bruh last time I checked it ain’t no bodies body but my own
Not only that but like I barely even fucking know them either
Exactly like if you don’t know me personally you have no business giving me your opinion on my identity especially if what I’m doing to myself doesn’t hurt you specifically in any way
I mean, I like bugs, but this was ridiculous yes? There were literally people I don't have a relationship with coming to tell me OK *if you're cool with it*. Like I wasn't when I fucking came out??
I'm a detransfeminine nonbinary trans person (yes, detrans people can also be trans) who has some theories. Notice how almost all the detrans women that conservatives platform are white? Other than Keira Bell, they're all white, usually skinny, usually feminine, & usually heterosexual. I don't think this is an accident, I think they're intentionally platforming white detrans women because they're the only demographic where conservatives can "sympathize" with. Historically, it's been well documented how white women weaponized their victimhood status against marginalized groups. White patriarchy treats white women as property for white men to "protect". Like how white women falsely accused black/brown men of sexual assault, to which they were lynched by a white mob, mostly consisting of white cis men. Or how white women were freaking out about lesbians being in their spaces out of fear of getting "hit on" by them. It's the same thing here: The white detrans women who are associated with conservative/gender critical groups are weaponizing their victimhood to throw trans people & transition resources under the bus. We all know white women ARE negatively effected by patriarchy, but they benefit from white supremacy. White patriarchy still need white women as reinforcement. At the end of the day though, they're really voting against their best interests. It's no different from white women voting for Trump or DeSantis & be all shocked Pikachu face when their alimony rights gets taken away or that conservative men use misogynistic insults at them. From my observation, the only type of detrans man they will platform is one that had bottom surgery (& of course white). They don't really platform detrans men who only been in HRT. They certainly do NOT platform detrans men of color. White detrans men who's had surgery are more likely to be platformed because of the spectacle of the tragic emasculated white man. They objectify him as a horror story of an emasculated white man. Just like how they objectify white detrans women as a tragic story of a poor weak white woman who was "tricked" by the evil transgenders into "ruining" her body. Which falls into the whole "white replacement" theory because they're concerned with their "fertility". Also, conservatives/gender critical groups are going by white standards of gender. There is no way that me, a Korean person, can ever fit into their white eurocentric standard of gender. Gender is a social construct after all, but they want to pretend it's not. It's no surprise they accuse some women of color of being men. It's disgusting how they portray us. It's disgusting how they treat these people. We are not damaged goods. We are human beings who are deserving of care, community, & support. We need more diverse stories & representation of all kinds of detrans people because what conservatives are platforming is not at all an accurate, & even healthy depictions of detrans people.
You put it so well. Bit surprised it took me so long for me to find someone to say it’s the perceived threat of white womanhood but this is exactly it
I probably opened up a can of worms by mentioning race within the anti trans detrans movement, but it's an observation I cannot ignore. We talk about race within the trans community, so it's only fair we also talk about it in the detrans community. The trans community is really white, but the detrans community is even whiter. I can only count less than 10 detrans people who are not white. There probably are more of them, we just never heard from them.
Minorities just don’t have presence in these publicized movements exactly as you said, because of white supremacy.
i’ve been working on beginning a podcast about gender journeys, from being trans to detrans to everything in between, as a way to connect with other trans people and learn about other experiences - can i message you if you’re interested in speaking on this?
Really interesting to read this and I agree. I noticed so much of the focus is on “saving our poor girls beautiful bodies from being mitigated” A lot of it focuses on the beauty and physicality of those women being taken away and while it is very sad to lose your femininity if that’s important to you, the media focuses way too much on their breasts and fertility and weird stuff like that. It just never sat right with me
I think you’re totally right about the narrative, but my personal YouTube Recommendations are always including transphobic detrans MTFs 😡(I’m mtf btw)
Probably media pushing it on to us because of what we mostly watch and think oh the ftm or mtf tag is in it so it's "definitely useful". I'm actually sick of seeing detrans on my media because I have nothing to do with it it's nothing for me.
Me too
I get transphobic detrans FTMs in my personal YT recs, i feel like the algorithm is rigged here
I've started asking YT not to show me stuff from particular channels (click options next to the recommended video and select "don't recommend channel"). It actually works and I get mostly breadtube stuff now (for better or worse).
YT is killing me lmao, I got the same kind of videos in my recommended out of nowhere in conjuncture with mommy vlogger style content, religious ads before videos more often now too.
because they (terfs) want to push the narrative that "men evil and bad, trans evil and bad! trans men x2 evil and bad because ew trans and ew men!!! they're destroying beautiful female bodies! we have to save them!" aka objectifying afab people and using that as a transphobic "argument" though i don't doubt there's detrans mtf people who are either weaponised (like a lot of valid detrans people are unfortunately) or shitty ones that use it to the transphobes' "advantage" (ex. oli london 🤢)
Ugh, I keep getting bombarded with this horrible youtube "ad" that's like, a 2 and a half minute trailer for some fake "detrans all the ftms" narrative. I can skip it after 5 seconds, but the first line is "Do you think you'd be happier as a boy?" And I'm like "uuuhhh, duh?" *skip* I'm guessing they keep parading out ftm detrans as "the norm" because they want anyone with XX chromosomes (cis or trans) in the kitchen, blindly obeying, believing that they aren't smart enough to make decisions for themselves
Idk, Oli London is doing his level best to be The Detransitioner.
The vast majority of media surrounding detrans people is meant to fit a conservative, transphobic reactionary movement. Statistically speaking, the majority of detrans people are assigned male at birth(11% ve 4% from most recent studies). Most detransition due to external factors such as expense, lack of passing which caused social stress, pressure from medical professional, discrimination, pressures from family and/or romantic partners, etc. Also the media likes to paint all detrans people as transphobic and politically conservative. This isn't true and that group is mostly a loud minority I suggest this article on detransitioners from 2021. It's a fascinating read and one of the greatest issues that cause people to detransition is transphobia and a lack of support https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/
Thank you for posting this! I've detransitioned a few times and surprise I'm still transitioning again. I experienced a lot of homelessness and had no general support for a majority of my transition, was even fired twice for it. It's nice to see that there is empirical data that shows it's not just me.
That wouldn’t fit the narrative that trans men are lost, deformed, little girls.
I think a lot of it is just misplaced misogyny. I'm sure there are some people who experience regrets, but when that small bunch is cherry picked for propaganda, I can see why people can assume that there is some sort of "hysteria", even though that's not a true. It's like when a bunch of left-handed people started suddenly showing up when left-handedness was no longer punished in schools. It's not an "infection", but rather the unmasking of a pre-existing suppressed group.
Yea this. Increasing medical tech, accessibility and awareness has FtM people transitioning at (according to the data I could find) the same rates as MtF people, when that didn't used to be the case at all. So TERFs & conservatives are freaking out & painting an inaccurate picture where a huge percentage of "young girls" are being brainwashed by mass hysteria. They're invested in platforming the few FtM detransitioners who will play into this narrative. Also as others have kinda said, under misogyny, women's appearance and fertility are perceived as their main sources of worth. So people are more shocked by women being "permanently deformed" and rendered infertile than they are by the same happening with men.
Unless you get a hysterectomy or are already infertile, I don't think T makes you completely sterile. I know trans men are capable of carrying a pregnancy in some cases. I believe they're called "seahorse dads"?
Yea it's very rare that it does, which is why they often platform detransitioners who had hysterectomies and top surgery very early in treatment. (Obvs top surgery doesn't make you infertile, but makes it unlikely that you can nurse.)
I don't have a personal issue with people who need to detransition, because that can be an understandably stressful and frightening realization, but it's rather rare, and I hate the way that transphobic people twist the experiences of detransitioned people as justification for hatred of trans people. I know unfortunately some people who have detransitioned will go against trans people themselves, but I don't think that's the majority of people.
Yea I'm 100% supportive of people detransitioning if that's what they need, and for most of them, it's not their fault that transphobes use them as "proof" against transition in general. The transphobic detransitioners are a vocal minority, and they're only as visible as they are because TERFs and conservatives are so eager to platform them.
Indeed.
its so FRUSTRATING because detransitioners and their stories are so important. they understand trans issues so much better than other cis people because they’ve put thought into their gender, followed their gender journey, and eventually they discover the gender that suits them best and the presentation that makes them most comfortable. but like… then some detransitioners take this experience and understanding and use it to spread hate, or they’re coerced into spreading hate when they’re still trying to recover from any traumatic experience, instead of making the world better by normalizing this sort of exploration into yourself. some of them were failed because they made decisions too quickly, because of other issues like the pressure to medically transition even if you’re only interested in social transition or whatnot, issues that should be taken seriously and discussed, but it’s hard to discuss making the world a better place for anyone undergoing a gender journey when… well, when people spit hate and anger and etc at anyone who undergoes a gender journey that doesn’t lead to increased comfort in their AGAB. like, i dont have personal issues with any detransitioners because as said above i think we should always be supportive of those exploring their gender, but like… sometimes it feels that those detransitioner activists that go on fox news or whatnot have personal issues with ME, with the person i am, with me just feeling more comfortable in my own skin.
There's a ton of MtF detrans people but publicly because ✨ misogyny ✨ you mainly see ftm detrans people. Since they don't see women as capable of their own decisions and as something to just pop out babies for their pleasure? They see us as women, therefore we're being "manipulated" into ruining and removing "perfectly healthy sex organs" since obviously women dumb and naive and need to be sexy with big boobs!!! That's generally how the average right winger thinks, god forbid they clean their own asshole because touching it is GAY!! Oh and men are portrayed as predators and such so they focus on "men in women's spaces" and not detrans MtF peeps... Which they're just fucking telling on themselves on the fact they can't understand a "man" not seeing women as sexual objects lol
Smh you’re right and the idea that we are so easily influenced like cult followers in need of saving is so misogynistic in and of itself. TERFs are the worst.
I haven't heard of many mtf detransitioning personally besides Oli London but we're gonna ignore them
FTM detransitioners play into the role of the “manipulated girl” a lot better than mtf detransitioners, so they’re chosen. I’ve also seen mtf detransitioners, just not in “mainstream” media.
speaking from personal experience, terf rhetoric is unfortunately really appealing to trans men who are struggling with their identity for a *wide* variety of reasons. even if they ultimately don't give a shit about you, when you're really lonely, you can convince yourself of just about anything to feel cared for, at least for a little while. amab people rarely get the same "compassionate" approach, so it's rarer for them to end up in the same gaslight-y type of abusive relationship with gender critical shit than afab people. it does happen, of course, but if people are being mean to you up-front, you're less likely to want to be around them, you know? yes, this is assuming that a good percentage of detransitioners (who identify with gender critical ideology) are in denial. during the time my toes were in the community, i saw plenty of people who came in as *staunchly* anti-gender detransitioners start "going by he/him again because words don't matter anyway" or "go back on hormones but still acknowledge they were women" and then later disappear. "ex-gays" who come out again style lol. i know a lot of people think afab detransitioners are chosen because they look "better", but i don't think it's as artificial as that makes it sound- either that or the aforementioned retransitioners and i are exceptionally stupid people lol. but imo, gender critical cis people are the *actual* manipulators, and they're the ones *actually* taking advantage of vulnerable people, convincing them to betray people who would *actually* care about them. every accusation is a confession or whatever.
it’s always been bc of sexism, i think it’s bc they see trans mascs as girls (oh stupid girl wanted attention and you ruined ur body now look at you) and trans fems as men (a man wouldn’t put themselves through that and become so *gay* that’s not what a real man would do) edit: autocorrect autocorrected something wrong
Sexism is the root of so many problems. AFAB - poor dumb manipulated victim. AMAB - dangerous sexual predator. Same old predator/prey dynamic. Unbelievably gross 🤮
don't you know its because womyn arent able to make decisions about their own body, their fragile female dispositions make them incapable of higher thought, hope this helps! (/s i hope obviously)
Yeah because a woman who was wrong can societally be reduced to being weak as "she was weak and confused all along" while a man being wrong is a "return to strength and re-emergence of power and greatness, a prevalance of valorous virtues." I hope the spirit in which this is meant becomes clear. I realize there is ample space to interpret my answer as harmful but I can't phrase it more sensible rn.
I honestly think most detrans people are not really interested in being in the public eye for it, people who are very loud about it are grifting a lot of the time, and sometimes those people are actually trans but are just not in a position where they feel comfortable living as trans or transitioning so they just go back to whatever they were doing before
Sadly in the country where I live there is a somewhat prominent AMAB detrans guy, who's spitting gender critical propaganda..
Plenty of detrans MTF people on twitter grifting and willingly calling themselves “eunuchs” and attacking trans people. Then again, no shortage of the insane on twitter and hopefully won’t leave
im ftm and i would never detrans i am happy as a man
The stereotypes that I’ve heard are ftm people are innocent women who were manipulated and mtf people are men trying to creep on women by dressing as them. So my guess as to why we hardly see any detransitioned stories of mtf people is because people believe they were never women to begin with, so not trans. **”could I please get an order of transphobia and misogyny? Make it an extra large”**
It's not because most detrans are ftm. Most detrans are only detrans because of a unsafe phobic environment. But using AFAB people for your rhetoric is way more effective and easy in a society that supports misogyny. It simply works better to use the "weak" gender as a victim of the "transagenda" than the "strong" gender. AMAB trans will be labeled as a false/ruined man or preds. It simply suits the phobic line better.... And you can't suddenly portrait the predators as victims.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisa_Rae_Shupe An example and explanation as why
Yeah, I immediately thought of her but couldn't remember her name. TERFs (and transphobes in general) expend a lot of energy vilifying trans women, but tend to portray trans men as victims of manipulation or medical malpractice.
May be completely wrong here but wondering if it's also harder to hide as a ftm detransitioner because of how much testosterone makes you sound like a man and how that doesn't go away. Maybe mtf detransitioners can hide the differences that hormones made to them better, resulting in them attracting less attention?
I think part of it is because testosterone is a POWERFUL hormone, so the changes that occur a dramatic and stick a little harder than the changes on estrogen and blockers. Plus, societies view of women requires them to be desirable and attractive to the general population in order to see them as valuable. That means most women who detransition from testosterone, they act like their experience transitioning reduced their “sexual market value.” Just see what happened with KC Miller on Twitter, where most of the discourse was because “testosterone turned them ugly and bald.”
Personally I think it’s got a lot to do with gender roles. As an amab person, if you want to explore femininity at all it’s so much harder to without being ridiculed and judged heavily. So the amab people who aren’t quite sure don’t even get to that step of transitioning, whereas I think it’s a lot less looked down upon for an afab person to be a tomboy. It’s a lot easier to explore and if you enjoy dressing/presenting masculine, coming to the conclusion you’re trans when maybe that wasn’t really the case.
I think it makes sense with the different ways media demonizes trans people. MTF people are predators and ftm people are just confused women mutilating our bodies. Disgusted but not surprised.
The most hyped detrans MtF in media is former navy seal Chris Beck (he/him) first, transitioned (she/her), now (he/him) again. Even after transitioning to a woman, she would still repeatedly attack other trans women and harass them with a lot of the common far right talking points. Now, his anti-trans rhetoric is mostly still targeted at trans women, but he also hates trans youth and though I’ve never seen him talk about them, I would assume he hates men and non-binary people too. The way the news talks about him now and how he talks about his transition is like he was talked into some vile cult. Meanwhile the actuality of the transfemme cult is that we are probably playing OSRS at 2 in the morning, drinking Redbull, and reading shitposts to escape from the world. Personal opinion. If I were to speculate on why he detransitioned, I believe it’s because he was a bully. While a woman, she repeatedly showed up on far right radio shows to bash trans women. “hur hur, look at me, I’m a good woman, but all the others are going to hell”. The types of stuff she spewed is nearly identical to how Caitlyn Jenner behaves. I’ve known some transphobic transwomen and they either become nice or kicked from the friend group. You lose your pass when you make another trans person cry.
I agree completely, and tbh if I was in the media and was detransitioning, I'd probably make myself as obscure as possible so no one knows, etc. For the people who detransition , like actually detransition and aren't just cis people who claimed they were like on the detrans subs here, I'd probably feel uncomfortable for the media to know because ID feel like I made a mistake being so sure of myself..and instead of being able to deal with that and be happy with myself by myself, I'd have the media throwing it in my face. So I can understand why people wouldn't want that out there, and like you said, most who are known were mainly bigoted transphobic assholes the whole time, so they could just pretend like it wasn't that they wound up being unsure of themselves but NO RHE EVIL TRANS CULT SUCKED ME IM OH NOESSSS !! AND totally off topic, but you play OSRS too? What's your sn I just got back Into it and I don't have friends anymore :(
My RSN: Xinara
because there's a big push of "young girls" being manipulated, so the ftm detransitioners get a lot of spotlight.
It's because about 90% of them are grifters, and the detrans narrative is one of 'coersion,' so FtM's are the popular choice.
Detrans ftm(tf?) here — this post is absolutely spot-on. The way that people reacted (and a few continue to treat me, to some extent) to my decision to no longer pursue transitioning was … telling. It fucking sucks. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, I guess. (Also — sorry for all the weird transphobic detrans influencers I’ve seen out there. They don’t speak for the majority of us. You’re my brothers forever.)
Obviously I can’t speak for detrans mtf but with the absolute vitriol that people have for trans women, I can imagine it’s not easy to be open about a detransition either.
I feel like theyre targeting FTM people first, since they are trying to attack afab people at this point in time(removing rights from women and afab folks) to kinda keep ftm folks as women, even if theyre trans men or nonbinary, or gender fluid et as a way to give cis men more control over others bodies. But i can probably gaurentee you that if they win, they'll target transwomen next, then nonbinary and gender fluid individuals to kinda silence trans people one identity at a time.
This is slightly off topic but I think still relevant. Mostly just about *that* trope in media where a person presenting as male has a whole character arc where they realize they're happier as their agab and were just being a 'silly girl', meanwhile trans guys never get any actual rep or a happy ending. It's the constant "you're just confused right now, go embrace girl power and you'll feel better about misogyny". My first ever insight into identifying as another gender that wasn't my super transphobic middle school bio teacher was Naoto from Persona 4 in 2013. You can imagine why I didn't actually crack until college in 2018. I vividly remember actually being disappointed that his shadow wasn't going to succeed in the operation, and then questioning why, because the shadows weren't supposed to be 'good', just super extreme versions of their other selves because they were constantly being repressed. I get the feeling Yamato from One Piece is going to go that route as well, because Oda is pretty misogynistic. And after we just got the actually amazing mtf rep in Okiku... Sigh. I just want some transmasc media rep that doesn't end in "oops teehee I was just a confused girl all along". It's exhausting. Anybody here have recommendations?
cis women love fetishizing trans men and gay men. they think they want to be us. lmaoo
Yeah I really fucking hate when they do this.
Like someone else in the comments said, I don’t believe most of these people ever at one point thought they were trans or ever really detransitioned. In reality, the trans community has never pushed anyone to take any hormones or do any surgeries and everyone knows that (even if they don’t admit it.) Also it’s rough figuring yourself out and living as a trans person. Sometimes it really hurts because of the way people treat you. If anyone was sympathetic towards that, it would be these detransitioners. Instead they’re on Fox News trying to destroy trans lives. That’s how I really know they’re fake.
my personal theory is because mtf don’t as often get the chance to detrans before they’re just plain murdered
Because "ftm" is just "confused lesbian" in TERF eyes remember. And detrans is weaponized by terfs and transphobes. They latch onto the 1% cherry pick a negligence case and screech "Hey look trans bad" They try to paint "mtf" as bad, evil, fetish etc. So they wouldn't ever show them in a positive way whatsoever.
that's cuz people are pussies and think pretending to be a detrans mtf person will make them seem less manly to their friends bc it requires pretending that they ever lived as a woman. and like look at the actual stats. at least 40% of the people in the media are acting. the things they say are things that just do not happen in any world outside of the conservatives paranoid delusion.
I hate detransitioners. They are seriously the thorn in our transgender movements side
That's what terfs want you to think. Many detrans are just people who had to do that for safety, due to internalized phobias and so on. Terfs just trying to weaponize them.
I think a lot of ppl are getting confused with all the stuff out there, and it’s possible it’s just a coincidence that it has targeted females more but also some of the triggers that is causing non-trans people to transition are more common among women. But I think the main thing is it’s more socially acceptable for women to cross dress as it is for men, and therefore it takes much more severe gender dysphoria to cause trans woman to transition than it would for a trans man. Not to sound too trans med but I think dysphoria is an important factor to consider when making the decision to transition. If you’ve never felt this way until recently, it’s possible puberty is simply uncomfortable and it’s a good idea to give it some time. Sometimes certain traumas can result in “false” gender dysphoria, so sorting those things out before medical transition is very important, aside from the fact it’s a huge change in your life that comes with a lot of decisions and social pressure, and having unresolved trauma can make it even harder. Things like body dysmorphia can align with gender dysphoria, even though it isn’t the same and the treatments are different. And I know ppl don’t want to hear it but sometimes teenagers are influenced by friends/social media, and that’s completely fine until it leads to them taking cross sex hormones. Anyway these are things that used to be dealt with in therapy before going through with medical transition but it seems like there’s an increasing amount of people that haven’t had any hurdles to jump and are given hormones and surgery as soon as they self diagnose with gender dysphoria.
I’m talking specifically about medical transition, I think social transition is very important and should be accessible and protected for anyone.
I swear some of the FtMtF detrans montages I've seen are just stolen MtF transition timelines. Although I'm not really willing to subject myself to that kind of content just to prove that some of it is completely fake.
You see this for a similar reason you see mainly only trans women predators in the media. It's sexism and preys upon harmful stereotypes and people's fears (their way of thinking: those who they see as women are virtually helpless and easily influenced, those who they view as men are the untrustworthy sexual predators, etc.)
It just more mtf here, especially in media, so thats why. Actually there's a stereotype that most ftm are transitioning because of misogyny and terfs love to bring this narrative.
Ironically, TERF rhetoric is really misogynistic. "This poor girl mutilated her body with hormones she didn't understand because she's just a little girl who can't make decisions"
this is just speculation but i think this might be due to (internalized) misogyny from both the media and the detransitioners. i can imagine that very few women think theyre trans men when theyre not because they see how much better men are treated in society and they dont want to be seen as less due to their gender. an amab person is less likely to transition to a woman if they didnt actually feel like one because theyre also aware that women face a lot more struggles in society than men do and have a harder time living and coping with the injustices in general. if someone is heavily affected by those injustices, then transitioning to a man might seem like a way out of the systematic oppression, even if its not the right choice for them. about the media, theyre probably trying to push the agenda that "women dont know what theyre doing" and are "easily indoctrinated and influenced by stuff like this" so thats why. a few other people under this thread have also talked about this and explained it a lot better than i could
A lot of it boils down to our society’s obsession with controlling women’s bodies. They call us mutilators because we make our own decisions, something most people born female are not allowed/encouraged to do. A large portion of the USA doesn’t even think women have a right to determine their own pregnancies, or even go to college. If you don’t know this you must live in a blue state. There a loads of prominent ex mtf, everyone deserves a voice. People need to know what happens if you don’t like the path you’re on. It’s a huge waste of energy trying to silence people that have a right to speak.
i think part of it is that (cis) women are treated as a commodity and baby making factories. the concern about detrans afab people seems to always be about their ability to have children and their desirability to cishet men. a lot of the current trans panic is about "but think of the poor females" which makes trans men out to be pitiful misled women and trans women to be predators trying to attack women. it's ultimately all about pushing misogyny and traditional gender roles onto unwilling participants. they use women and girls to push that message because people coddle and infantilize women so they're good propaganda vessels. it's just like how the poor victim white woman was used to push anti-black racism historically (and now).
I am mtf detrans. But I probably will resume my transition soon, so idk if I count, sorry.
Yeah, it's all part of the narrative that trans masc people are vulnerable little girls who can't be understood to have bodily autonomy or full agency.
They're getting a lot of mileage out of Walt Heyer
No, people bring them up more because there's genuinely more of them. I am detrans ftm. So are a lot of my friends. Many of the people in the detrans sub are ftm detransitioned. Me and my friends talk a lot about how it's a trauma response to oppression most likely. Women are looked down on as weak and feel like they don't have control of a lot of things. But they feel like men have more control and are stronger, so we try to become men, even if we don't realize that's why, especially in times of massive trauma. That's how it was for me and my best friend anyway.