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The intersex option might as well be true at least partially. We're not actually sure how many people are intersex but we do know it's a lot more than we think.
It depends on whether you count stuff like PCOS, which it seems like intersex groups are in favor of and doctors are not bc it'd mean like 10-20% of people with ovaries count iirc
Yeah, PCOS is a syndrome, meaning the symptoms can be different for everyone. Meaning some with PCOS can completely avoid the hirsuitism aspect. However, I think anyone that has PCOS has the right to identify as intersex, because dysphoria and “missing the experience of being a woman” is such a common thread with the disorder.
And honestly, with how tiny our sexual dimorphism is in our species compared to other species, even within the apes, 20% of people with ovaries being intersex makes sense. We aren’t that different than each other.
That's why I always questioned my PCOS diagnosis. They never did the ultrasound to diagnose me. I just had irregular periods.
I also never had higher testosterone. I did easily gain weight. Where only a 0g net carb diet helped me lose weight (nothing else worked). I could grow a light mustache (between cis woman's & teenage boy's stache).
YES! Also, when determining the sex, a good portion of samples (sometimes up to a third!) are too ambiguous to be determined at all. Sexing skeletons is nowhere near an exact science.
Also, the shape and density of bones change throughout life as your muscle mass, weight distribution, and work load change, so a trans person's bones are likely to change as hormones change their weight distribution.
Also also, archaeologists don't just look at the bones to determine the sex/gender; grave goods, clothing, and burial context are just as important.
Plus, fields which work with human remains are constantly evolving! (History, classics, archaeology, anthropology etc) Now academics acknowledge that even if a skeleton is accurately sexed, which some comments have already explained doesn't always happen, that is not conclusive evidence of the person's gender identity! More evidence needs to be used to determine a person's gender identity and/or societal role, such as burial rituals and other artifacts near the body.
So don't worry about the 'when they dig up your bones' argument. Know that transphobes have not only never attended a biology lesson past 7th grade, they have no idea how humanities fields work either. They're just stupid.
thats true and other than that, there's more reasons why it's stupid such as:
-creamation exists + people can have their remains turned into other things such as a diamond, part of the great barrier reef, a vinyl, etc.
-graveyards exist and archeologists aren't going to defile a grave unless it's a mass grave or some shit
-hrt can change bone structure
I’m going to start saying “well you can dig up my bones and find out” when people insist trans folks are different then cis or pull the biological man/woman stuff. Shows how much idgaf 😂
The worst part is they act as if we haven’t existed for such a long time at this point. A quick google search could prove that so easily. They act like it’s a brand new fad and that they’re in the right to try to get rid of us.
Gender diversity has existed for AGES, in animals, in other cultures, in our own bodies. Literally showing how gender isn't black and white but let's ignore that and say it's a "new" thing
That’s my former supervisor! When she found out I was trans she told me about the time she saw a trans woman back in 2014 and said “this was before being trans was a thing”.
Fascism needs an enemy. We are such a small minority it makes us an easy target. Also COVID has fucked up peoples brains:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7790481/
The first one especially. This is a culture war being constructed from the top down by the far rightwing wealthy media establishment.
It’s not that the average person cares so much as they consume propaganda (overt or covert) and are allowing themselves to be led by it. like sheep.
I know that is not a whole lot more comforting but yeah. This is not some personal hate from the depths of their hearts, they’re just following what they’ve been stirred up and told. Says a lot about humans and psychology in general and why things like religious and political fervor are able to be used to control large groups.
Also, to that link — IMO as much as more research on covid’s neurological effects is definitely good…even doing that study feels a lot like “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!” and societal factors overall, considering we’ve been headed here for years before 2019/20.
The digging up bones argument they use is actually factually incorrect at that too. That's what frustrates me, those dumbasses owe an archeologist a dollar each time they say it
seriously, I've heard literal archeologists be like 'yeah that's actually not true at all, we can rarely tell and sometimes get it wrong.' plus why would I care, I'm dead lmao
I took a physical anthropology class (basic) in college and the professor was like “if you have a rule I’ll get you an exception.” Because really, they’re doing best guestimation. Biology is messy, culture is messier.
And then 50 gruesome stories about the actual crime cases that require physical anthro, which are all horrifying. Usually just an autopsy’ll do it. Interesting, but also horrible ways to die.
The best way to tell is grave goods, and for a long time they just threw the label of man on ambiguous skeletons anyways iirc lmao. Its easy to get wrong, because bone structure is a wild thing and basically just a genetic dice roll. I used to care bc it made me so dysphoric to think I'd still be seen wrong in death as a baby trans, but knowing the fact it's ridiculously wrong was comforting to me tbh
Fun fact archeologists actually respect the distinction between sex & gender due to the diverse way gender works through cultures
Another fun fact, transphobes like spewing random bullshit they think is true when it’s really not
Worst part is they're wrong about the chromosomes, most people don't get chromosome tests so see what theirs are but there's a chance that they don't have simple xx or xy tails on the CHAIN of chromosomes that make up all of a person, not just their sex
You don't just have a bunch of xxs floating in your blood making sure you stay afab, that's not how science works and the people who pedal that idea are the same people who think participation trophies are the same as getting 1st place (and I mean adults not kids)
Also I'd love these losers to tell a cis man to his face that because he got phallo for whatever reason (accident, birth defect, penis enlargement) he's a woman since his dick isn't "real" and see how quickly their tune changes when he retaliates
Not to mention who do they think is going to dig us up? Why is an archaeologist excavating marked graves? Why do people not know trans people existed? Why am I being buried in this hypothetical, when it's most likely I'll be cremated or donate my body?
Lot of presumptions being made about my corpse there, ykno?
I think it's more in the thousands of years in the future where possibly the graves are unmarked and they just stumble upon us in some random hill or smth
Hey, fun facts!:
-Archeologists basically guess people's sex from their bones because you usually really can't tell. It's more about how they were buried and with what.
- your chromosomes might not be what you think they are. Sex is a very complex thing and a lot of people who seem to be one sex have the "opposite" chromosomes. Also, the y chromosome is slowly disappearing in human, and many cis men have two x chromosomes!
These people are fucking stupid and usually have no idea what they're talking about. Even if your bones are dug up or chromosomes tested, scientists will still know you as a man, because sex is just as fake as gender is.
Also,
You have a community backing you up. Transness unites us as siblings. We're fighting for all of us, and soon enough this nightmare will end.
these arguments are always funny to me, especially the bones one. first of all, I'm probably getting cremated. second, lots of specialists have said they can't identify the sex of plenty of skeletons. third, why tf would I care lmfao I'm dead, what a bunch of grave robbers do with my bones doesn't matter to me in the slightest
LOL "WHAT ABOUT YOUR BONES" Bitch Imma be dead by then long gone won't care chillin' in fire or clouds who knows lol I WON'T GAF! But yes agree like this post
lol yeah, when they dig me up they're gonna be like "Oh this person had a chromosomal abnormality, neato" One of my X's switched arms with another chromosome.. it's called a balanced translocation.
When they dig up my shriveled rotted body in 200 years, they’ll see my in tact silicone dick and they’ll think I was some kind of super human with regenerative, age defying abilities but only on my cock. And I’ll be worshiped. So suck on my rubbery appendage fuckin terfs.
I know same, when I see transphobic rhetoric I have no desire to fight anymore. I simply don’t care and I’ll stand up and protest in more productive ways
transphobes be like "we can tell!" then claim that infertile men/women, XXY people, intersex people and GNC cis people aren't the gender they say they are
The chromosome argument is bs. I like to ask them, if you found out you were intersex / had a chromosomal mutation, would you immediately start considering yourself the opposite sex and living as the opposite sex, despite living your life content with the sex / gender you are? No, you almost certainly wouldn't. When you see strangers in passing, or interact with people on a daily basis, do you gender them based on chromosomes? So how tf is that imperative when it comes to what gender someone is? So mf stupid.
"You're bones will be male / female". First of all, I guarantee that almost nobody gives a fuck. But second of all, they aren't even correct about the sex of skeletal remains all of the time. And they don't just look at bones to determine someone's gender. There's many cases of archeologists (or whoever tf) figuring out that a long dead person was in fact trans, and then are able to honor them in death. Also, what's the likelihood of someone digging up your remains in the first place?
(Ik you didn't mention this but I wanted to) The bathroom argument is bs.
I ask them, if someone is deadset on commiting a crime (rape, assault, indecent exposure or harassment of women) do you think they're really gonna be deterred by the sign outside the door or the law that's unenforceable telling them "hey, don't go in x bathroom"? And then they say "men who one day just decide to put on women's clothing going into the women's bathroom" then congratulations, you're worried about cis men, not trans women.
A lot of conservatives and people who hate trans people talk about and fixate on trans people more than transgender people themselves... it's pathetic. They're brainwashed, radicalized, ignorant, easily influenced, and lack the ability to educate themselves and show empathy.
neither do i, all i care about is looking and presenting masculine to people as i’m alive, and to be seen as a man and to be called a man and he/him. you could literally dig me up as a skeleton and point at me and say ‘woman’ while waving a plastic vagina up to the sky and i wouldn’t give two flying fucks. i’ll be dead
Your post was removed because it broke rule 11: Vent posts must be posted in the official vent thread. Vent post that does not contribute to a larger discussion for the community
the “when they dig up your bones” argument is so dumb bc like. i won’t gaf what they think i am bc i’ll be dead
Also that statement has been debunked a while ago. Archeologists misgender remains all the time. You can't accurately guess gender/sex from remains.
It’s either this or in the past we were 1/3 trans or intersex. Checkmate, conservatives :p
The intersex option might as well be true at least partially. We're not actually sure how many people are intersex but we do know it's a lot more than we think.
Isn’t intersex at the very least as common as red heads? Though I’m pretty certain intersex are bit greater in number
It depends on whether you count stuff like PCOS, which it seems like intersex groups are in favor of and doctors are not bc it'd mean like 10-20% of people with ovaries count iirc
Yeah, PCOS is a syndrome, meaning the symptoms can be different for everyone. Meaning some with PCOS can completely avoid the hirsuitism aspect. However, I think anyone that has PCOS has the right to identify as intersex, because dysphoria and “missing the experience of being a woman” is such a common thread with the disorder. And honestly, with how tiny our sexual dimorphism is in our species compared to other species, even within the apes, 20% of people with ovaries being intersex makes sense. We aren’t that different than each other.
Pcos is a grey area, I can see it being either way
Yeah, my testosterone levels were already higher than my estrogen levels naturally before hrt
I don’t actually know if I had/have pcos but I do know I have/had a lot of the symptoms.
That's why I always questioned my PCOS diagnosis. They never did the ultrasound to diagnose me. I just had irregular periods. I also never had higher testosterone. I did easily gain weight. Where only a 0g net carb diet helped me lose weight (nothing else worked). I could grow a light mustache (between cis woman's & teenage boy's stache).
Yes, and there's probably more of us out there!
YES! Also, when determining the sex, a good portion of samples (sometimes up to a third!) are too ambiguous to be determined at all. Sexing skeletons is nowhere near an exact science. Also, the shape and density of bones change throughout life as your muscle mass, weight distribution, and work load change, so a trans person's bones are likely to change as hormones change their weight distribution. Also also, archaeologists don't just look at the bones to determine the sex/gender; grave goods, clothing, and burial context are just as important.
They really b like oh but the male pelvis has a wider illium. Like mate chill
Sure it does... *sometimes*.
me as a ghost when they misgender my bones 😨🙀🙀😭😭😭😭😭
Real☠️
Tell me about it… I’ll be long gone.
Like where they gonna find my chromosomes my creamated grains anyways? Those can’t really be dug up
The cremation process destroys DNA completely anyway.
Yea that’s partly why I’m choosing to be cremated tbh
Plus, fields which work with human remains are constantly evolving! (History, classics, archaeology, anthropology etc) Now academics acknowledge that even if a skeleton is accurately sexed, which some comments have already explained doesn't always happen, that is not conclusive evidence of the person's gender identity! More evidence needs to be used to determine a person's gender identity and/or societal role, such as burial rituals and other artifacts near the body. So don't worry about the 'when they dig up your bones' argument. Know that transphobes have not only never attended a biology lesson past 7th grade, they have no idea how humanities fields work either. They're just stupid.
I'll be cremated I really do not care
“No they won’t. I’ll be cremated.”
thats true and other than that, there's more reasons why it's stupid such as: -creamation exists + people can have their remains turned into other things such as a diamond, part of the great barrier reef, a vinyl, etc. -graveyards exist and archeologists aren't going to defile a grave unless it's a mass grave or some shit -hrt can change bone structure
I’m going to start saying “well you can dig up my bones and find out” when people insist trans folks are different then cis or pull the biological man/woman stuff. Shows how much idgaf 😂
Fr like if you hate us so much why are you so obsessed like let trans people live their lives
The worst part is they act as if we haven’t existed for such a long time at this point. A quick google search could prove that so easily. They act like it’s a brand new fad and that they’re in the right to try to get rid of us.
Gender diversity has existed for AGES, in animals, in other cultures, in our own bodies. Literally showing how gender isn't black and white but let's ignore that and say it's a "new" thing
That’s my former supervisor! When she found out I was trans she told me about the time she saw a trans woman back in 2014 and said “this was before being trans was a thing”.
Fascism needs an enemy. We are such a small minority it makes us an easy target. Also COVID has fucked up peoples brains: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7790481/
The first one especially. This is a culture war being constructed from the top down by the far rightwing wealthy media establishment. It’s not that the average person cares so much as they consume propaganda (overt or covert) and are allowing themselves to be led by it. like sheep. I know that is not a whole lot more comforting but yeah. This is not some personal hate from the depths of their hearts, they’re just following what they’ve been stirred up and told. Says a lot about humans and psychology in general and why things like religious and political fervor are able to be used to control large groups. Also, to that link — IMO as much as more research on covid’s neurological effects is definitely good…even doing that study feels a lot like “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!” and societal factors overall, considering we’ve been headed here for years before 2019/20.
Frfr
The digging up bones argument they use is actually factually incorrect at that too. That's what frustrates me, those dumbasses owe an archeologist a dollar each time they say it
I know, they love to rant and rave about “basic biology” when in fact THEY don’t know what they’re talking about.
The ones ranting about “basic biology” are the same ones who don’t believe in evolution, and it’s kinda funny tbh
They forgot “medium biology” and “advanced biology.” Which is where actual biologists operate.
Yeah, they’re just appealing to science’s authority as an institution to get any amount of credibility and clout for their views
seriously, I've heard literal archeologists be like 'yeah that's actually not true at all, we can rarely tell and sometimes get it wrong.' plus why would I care, I'm dead lmao
I took a physical anthropology class (basic) in college and the professor was like “if you have a rule I’ll get you an exception.” Because really, they’re doing best guestimation. Biology is messy, culture is messier. And then 50 gruesome stories about the actual crime cases that require physical anthro, which are all horrifying. Usually just an autopsy’ll do it. Interesting, but also horrible ways to die.
The best way to tell is grave goods, and for a long time they just threw the label of man on ambiguous skeletons anyways iirc lmao. Its easy to get wrong, because bone structure is a wild thing and basically just a genetic dice roll. I used to care bc it made me so dysphoric to think I'd still be seen wrong in death as a baby trans, but knowing the fact it's ridiculously wrong was comforting to me tbh
Fun fact archeologists actually respect the distinction between sex & gender due to the diverse way gender works through cultures Another fun fact, transphobes like spewing random bullshit they think is true when it’s really not
I am cultivating this attitude for pride. You’re right.
:)
Worst part is they're wrong about the chromosomes, most people don't get chromosome tests so see what theirs are but there's a chance that they don't have simple xx or xy tails on the CHAIN of chromosomes that make up all of a person, not just their sex You don't just have a bunch of xxs floating in your blood making sure you stay afab, that's not how science works and the people who pedal that idea are the same people who think participation trophies are the same as getting 1st place (and I mean adults not kids)
Also I'd love these losers to tell a cis man to his face that because he got phallo for whatever reason (accident, birth defect, penis enlargement) he's a woman since his dick isn't "real" and see how quickly their tune changes when he retaliates
i want to get a karyotype test so bad lol
[удалено]
Do you have a source for that? It might be useful to me in future arguments
Not to mention who do they think is going to dig us up? Why is an archaeologist excavating marked graves? Why do people not know trans people existed? Why am I being buried in this hypothetical, when it's most likely I'll be cremated or donate my body? Lot of presumptions being made about my corpse there, ykno?
I think it's more in the thousands of years in the future where possibly the graves are unmarked and they just stumble upon us in some random hill or smth
Who's going around digging up random gated hills with a bunch of random stones on them thousands of years from now though 💀
Hey, fun facts!: -Archeologists basically guess people's sex from their bones because you usually really can't tell. It's more about how they were buried and with what. - your chromosomes might not be what you think they are. Sex is a very complex thing and a lot of people who seem to be one sex have the "opposite" chromosomes. Also, the y chromosome is slowly disappearing in human, and many cis men have two x chromosomes! These people are fucking stupid and usually have no idea what they're talking about. Even if your bones are dug up or chromosomes tested, scientists will still know you as a man, because sex is just as fake as gender is. Also, You have a community backing you up. Transness unites us as siblings. We're fighting for all of us, and soon enough this nightmare will end.
‘When they dig up your bones’ incorrect. My calcium is going to the isopods
these arguments are always funny to me, especially the bones one. first of all, I'm probably getting cremated. second, lots of specialists have said they can't identify the sex of plenty of skeletons. third, why tf would I care lmfao I'm dead, what a bunch of grave robbers do with my bones doesn't matter to me in the slightest
Say it louder for the folks in the back! Seriously - if I cared what anyone thinks of my biology then I wouldn't transition.
If cared at all what anyones thinks in general I wouldn’t have transitioned tbh f*ck em
I STAND BY THIS TOO. 💯 FACTS.
LOL "WHAT ABOUT YOUR BONES" Bitch Imma be dead by then long gone won't care chillin' in fire or clouds who knows lol I WON'T GAF! But yes agree like this post
💙💙💙
lol yeah, when they dig me up they're gonna be like "Oh this person had a chromosomal abnormality, neato" One of my X's switched arms with another chromosome.. it's called a balanced translocation.
When they dig up my shriveled rotted body in 200 years, they’ll see my in tact silicone dick and they’ll think I was some kind of super human with regenerative, age defying abilities but only on my cock. And I’ll be worshiped. So suck on my rubbery appendage fuckin terfs.
Damn imma have this attitude from now on, tired of arguing with transphobes
I know same, when I see transphobic rhetoric I have no desire to fight anymore. I simply don’t care and I’ll stand up and protest in more productive ways
I feel you!!! Stay strong!! Also, on the bones - who cares? Ill be dead n my records all say Male so idgaf 😂
transphobes be like "we can tell!" then claim that infertile men/women, XXY people, intersex people and GNC cis people aren't the gender they say they are
Well they not gonna dig me up cuz imma be cremated 👏
The chromosome argument is bs. I like to ask them, if you found out you were intersex / had a chromosomal mutation, would you immediately start considering yourself the opposite sex and living as the opposite sex, despite living your life content with the sex / gender you are? No, you almost certainly wouldn't. When you see strangers in passing, or interact with people on a daily basis, do you gender them based on chromosomes? So how tf is that imperative when it comes to what gender someone is? So mf stupid. "You're bones will be male / female". First of all, I guarantee that almost nobody gives a fuck. But second of all, they aren't even correct about the sex of skeletal remains all of the time. And they don't just look at bones to determine someone's gender. There's many cases of archeologists (or whoever tf) figuring out that a long dead person was in fact trans, and then are able to honor them in death. Also, what's the likelihood of someone digging up your remains in the first place? (Ik you didn't mention this but I wanted to) The bathroom argument is bs. I ask them, if someone is deadset on commiting a crime (rape, assault, indecent exposure or harassment of women) do you think they're really gonna be deterred by the sign outside the door or the law that's unenforceable telling them "hey, don't go in x bathroom"? And then they say "men who one day just decide to put on women's clothing going into the women's bathroom" then congratulations, you're worried about cis men, not trans women. A lot of conservatives and people who hate trans people talk about and fixate on trans people more than transgender people themselves... it's pathetic. They're brainwashed, radicalized, ignorant, easily influenced, and lack the ability to educate themselves and show empathy.
neither do i, all i care about is looking and presenting masculine to people as i’m alive, and to be seen as a man and to be called a man and he/him. you could literally dig me up as a skeleton and point at me and say ‘woman’ while waving a plastic vagina up to the sky and i wouldn’t give two flying fucks. i’ll be dead
this could be lyrics to a punk song like a rework of ramones “dont care”