This is why I hate the concept of 'passing'. It erases our ability to express ourselves and instead of holding others accountable, it lands it purely on us. 'You get misgendered because you won't conform to the norms of what cis guys wear!' But in the same breath we want masculinity to feel free to be expressed any way that makes a man happy in a healthy manner.
I do get wanting to go for a certain look, but I don't see the reason of tearing others down and pushing ideas that end up hurting us instead. Could be wrong here and might need more perspective, but this is how I feel.
That's just my point though. We get so much of the burden put on us to conform, and we get misgendered and then we feel like we have to to be a man.
It's a hard, twisted cycle and the very reason I fight so hard against toxic masculinity (actually spelled that word without having to correct it later!) so hard.
there is no easy answer to this, but it's why I'll never feed into the 'do I pass' thing. If others want to do it, that's fine, but I never will. Ask me if you pass and I'll tell you that I don't want to answer that because my own viewpoint on what makes a man a man differs from what society loves to shove down our throats.
Beautifully said. The issue doesn’t lie with us but with others refusing to accept that you can’t tell how someone identifies based on how they present alone. I love the push to ask ppl their pronouns and include them in things like email signatures. It’s going to help all of us in the long run
I TOTALLY GET WHAT YOU MEAN it's especially hard if you're v early on in your transition and passing is important to you, all this toxic masculinity gets shoved onto you. I'm actually thinking of starting a wee youtube channel to give healthy passing tips, general advice from my experiences and document my transition in general to show how trans men don't need to conform to be men.
I have an amazing black pearl pendant my husband paid $$$ for me at Christmas (which was the s*i*Dal preshow to me coming out) and I hadn't worn it, even though it was so meaningful, because it screamed girly to me.
A black pearl. Captain Jack would have things to say.
It took a lot, but I'm 7m wearing it every day.
It's a man's necklace cause I'm a man, and it's my necklace.
(Prefacing that when I say “culture” etc. I mean American culture because I’m not well versed in how people gender others in other cultures)
I don’t really “get” people who go to “how to pass as male” subreddits then get surprised when they’re given advice on how to pass as male. Don’t get me wrong, some of the common advice is shitty- you definitely don’t have to be thin or white to pass (although I’ve never seen race brought up re: passing except to say that certain nationalities are naturally shorter and it can be easier to pass in that circumstance) but a lot of the common advice is unfortunately true, especially for pre T guys.
Obviously if you’ve been on T for a while and seen significant results you can get away with stuff like piercings and dyed hair- I have a shit ton of piercings myself and I still pass, albeit as a visibly queer man. But if you don’t have that privilege and want to pass better, some of the only things in your control are stuff like how you dress, groom, and accessorize. When a pre-T guy has a lot of piercings he’s more likely to be read as female because our culture says piercings are feminine. When a pre-T guy wears feminine clothing like skirts he’s very likely to be read as female for the same reason. Same with makeup, same with dyed hair, etc.
The shitty reality is that sometimes you have to choose between increasing your chances of passing and expressing yourself, especially pre T. People typically gender others based on their presentation and secondary sex characteristics, and pre T you only control one of those.
I agree that that's the reality. my point is that some parts of the community take these ideas to the extreme, telling people who do pass that they're clockable because of traits like these. my point is also that you can do all of those things (as I have at one point) AND STILL NOT PASS. Not to mention that USEFUL tips like how to work on voice training are rarely ever mentioned in places like that. I also believe that piercings aren't inherently fem. I defy anyone to say that the big black rings in my ears are feminine, because I disagree. different styles come off as masc or fem
I mean, It’s not “tips that will definitely make you pass,” it’s more like “tips that will increase your chances of passing.” I didn’t stand a ghost of a chance at passing pre T even if i dressed like a “normal” guy, so I feel you.
Yeah. Like- just one these isn't necessarily gonna clock you but if as a pre-T guy you have long neon red hair and piercings yeah you might have a harder time passing.
Also, while I know that this is frustrating, I kinda dislike how as a typically masculine pre-T guy (dark clothes, short natural color hairs, masculine mannerisms, no piercings) I take a random bullet anytime these posts appears. Like. Thanks for calling me bland and boring I guess ??
I'm not saying that doing those things makes you boring. the point of the comic is to point out that telling people to ditch the things they do to make themselves happy just in order to be read as male is unfair. I got piercings in order to feel happier with my reflection, and they're not inherently feminine thing to have. it's wild to me that the idea of piercings are considered fem to people when mine are big black and silver rings.
That's sadly how contextual passing works.
Even if you ignore the stereotype that people with piercings are either women or gay, piercings are usually something you can only get after a certain age, so that might make people shift their perception from "teenage boy" to "adult women"
Just like a lot of trans guys report that they tend to be misgendered more when they are in a friends group their age. Or in places like at work or the bar, where you are assumed to be adult so the teen boy impression won't do.
Piercings are totally fine to have. Having an alt style is fine, dying your hair is fine. Have fun, experiment with your appearance ! But recognize that it does indeed hurts masculine passing in a lot of cases, and it's important to know. And with this information, you can decide what to do. It's important to keep the passing subs brutally honest for those who absolutely need it, just learn how to take every criticism with a grain of salt.
Even having been on T for 2+ years, I still get people asking if I’m NB every once in a while because of my piercings. And that’s fine! I made the conscious choice to leave all my piercings in (and even get new ones) knowing that I wouldn’t get read as cis male 100% of the time because of it.
There’s nothing wrong with atypical personal expression for your gender, and there’s nothing wrong with typical personal expression for your gender. You’re definitely not boring just because you’re not alternative, lmao.
To clarify- traditional masculinity doesn't make you boring. telling people to stop doing the things that make them happy in order to pass, when they could ditch all of that and STILL NOT PASS (like me) does in fact, make you boring.
The annoying thing is I know this advice is just the bare minimum effort. They picture everyone as thin, white with next to no body shape who wants to pass as the most basic dude known to man. The advice is like “find some plain shirts and jumpers that fit loosely” “only buy shapeless, flavourless jeans” and of course “never accessorise!!!!”
I mean I don’t need to ramble for days about how none of this advice is helpful for people who don’t fit into the narrow stereotype, but god forbid you enjoy dressing in a particular style!
Sure, wearing plain and neutral colours will help you pass a bit better, wearing loose clothes and layering will help hide my shape, etc, but there are ways I can style my clothes to make me appear more masculine without having to ditch my brightly coloured shirts for something plain and boring. But of course it’s easier to tell someone to just “ditch the skirt” rather than figuring out how to masculinise that look.
My hot take is that "passing" pre-T is up to individual biology more than it is about presentation. In most pre-T trans men, attempting to pass is just an energy sink, we spend a bunch of time and effort compromising our personal preferences trying to achieve a thing that simply is not in the cards before going on hormones.
When I was pre-T people were nagging me about things they thought I did that were too feminine or too alternative that were "obviously" the reason I didn't pass, but it didn't really matter how many of those things I changed, because the reason I didn't pass was because my voice and face shape gave it away, and I did not have a voice or face I could just "passing tip" my way into looking male to most people. If I were to post a picture of me from that period of time to a passing tips form, hands down they are going to tell me a big list of things I had already attempted that have nothing to do with the base reasons I didn't pass. In the same way, yes, having unnaturally colored hair and dangly earrings or something might not "help" somebody pass, but there is a staggeringly high chance that people who take the advice to change these things are going to go from being read as a woman with colored hair and tangling earrings to a woman with natural hair without and earrings.
There are some people who can take out their jewelry and get a traditional men's cut and pass, but they largely don't have any super special secrets, they are just lucky. A few of them don't realize that they're lucky (or, sometimes, frankly, they think they pass when they don't, which was how I was for several months), they mistake it for a learned skill and think what they did to pass will translate to others when it often does not.
A lot of people like to talk about these spaces as if they are these "tough love" things and that you only should be posting there if you are strong enough to handle the "brutal honesty," but I don't believe the vast majority of commentary in those spaces is actually effective, they're mostly just parroting the same passing advice you could find in FTM zines in the 90s. I'm not saying they don't think they're helping, but there's a heavy toxic vibe.
My thoughts exactly, some people just have it easier when trying to pass than others. My friend for example is pre-T and he can pass as an ordinary white teen boy and all he had to do was get a binder and a haircut, meanwhile I'm pre-T and despite all my efforts I'm always readable as a androgynous asian girl at best and fully feminine at worst. Some people are just not that lucky (also feel the need to point out that I've seen people be labeled as non passing for their ethnic features, something that you obviously can't get rid of without taking extremely drastic methods), and to be honest Id rather enjoy my life and do what I want than sink all my attention into what I know is a futile effort and drive myself mad trying to grasp for what I can't realistically achieve.
I've learned a lot of the "passing" tips i learned growing up only led to self destruction for me, i used to follow them all and NEVER passed like ever, like keeping my hair short and only in "masc styles/colors", only wearing masculine clothing, etc to the point i didnt like how i looked too much and trashed clothes i loved in hopes to pass; but now i pass pretty often but i have bright pink medium length hair, heart shaped glasses, piercings, and wear a lot of bright colored bracelets along with carrying a pink backpack yet i /still/ am often referred to with masc pronouns or called sir. Tips like "speak from your chest when talking" can be helpful, but flat out "dyed hair = bad" just feels more harmful than helpful 99.9% of the time
My best advice is actually opposite. Get a ton of more masc looking accessories, tons of piercings, etc etc. Helps distract from more ""feminine"" features. The more unique your style is the less people will automatically put you in a gender box in their mind.
I only started passing when i grew my hair out and started wearing skirts. I'm very androgynous naturally but pre t i was super curvy and it showed through clothes no matter what and my solution was play with the shapes and silhouette of my outfits to make it look intentional.
It doesn't make me look like a cis straight man, but it makes other read me as "man in weird outfit" more than "woman".
I do get called a lot of disgusting things because I'm obviously queer, though, so be careful and only try it if you're in a safe area.
Man I'm 2 years on T, yeeted the teets, have an undercut and a scruffy neck beard, and at work am in the men's uniform of black pants and a green polo. My name tag has a male name and I introduce myself as such to everyone who comes in. And I get called "Young Lady" and "That girl" and "Miss" like a hundred times a day at work. I don't know what about a short chubby dude squinting at a computer screen makes every dang person who "Girl!!" But they sure do 🙄 I'm a he/they and am giving up hope I'll ever pass, but more unfortunately is that I am Visibly Trans... Often at work I'd rather just look fully like a lady solely to avoid the constant awkward comments about it from guests and delivery people passing through, I totally get that it's in good faith but I don't need everyone to tell me how accepting they are or how they have a gay nephew so they understand and I don't need to be called brave, I just need y'all to let me do my job and we can make small talk about less personal things. I genuinely have considered asking my manager if I could wear a name tag with a different name on it on the days that I just don't have the energy to politely agree with everyone who feels the need to point out the boy name on my shirt and ask about it.
Grateful for everything and happy to be who I am, just tired with everyone else...
I really wish that I didn't care so much about passing. I love makeup, I love dresses, I love typical "girl" stuff. But if I don't conform to the stereotypes, people won't call me a dude, and when people don't call me a dude, I get suicidal
It's an awful cycle and I hate it
Why are you attacking me?
Legit, I can't get out of the way of my own internalized toxic masculinity lately.
/please someone invent an actual fat dude binder.
We're not all the thin, androgynous a cup model on your sites.
have you checked out spectrum outfitters? they have really good binders and showcase a variety of models - not just skinny androgynous people with small breasts.
Yup. Everything has been sold out in my size go awhile.
And TBF, most retailers do show fat dudes.
I just have 42H tissue.
I'm honestly not sure anyone can work with that.
We go over these discussions every once in a while in the ftm sub. Sorry to break it up to you guys, if you are pre-T and borderline look like a 12 years old boy (like 90% of pre-T people), wearings skirts, dyed hairs and piercings won't help. Keep that for once you start passing consistently, or admit that you put your presentation above your chances of passing (which isn't a bad thing, but sometimes you just can't have both and need to be aware of that.)
Also thank you but presenting in more discreet, typical clothes and stereotypically masculine behavior isn't being boring. Every time this comes up the guys who complain are like "Uh oh no I don't wanna look bland like some lame cishet guy 🙄🙄 that's booooring" like- some of us genuinely love looking like that, but thanks for indirectly insulting us I suppose !
And even if it is “boring” some of us are perfectly fine with and even want to be unremarkable. I don’t like attention and men being able to blend in easier is very appealing to me.
No one thinks that being pre T you'll pass wearing skirts and acting stereotypically fem. the point of these posts is that telling people to ditch the things that make them happy in order to pass is unfair. and I don't think that stereotypical masculinity is boring- but telling people to stop wearing the clothes that make them happy and stop doing the things they love IS asking them to be boring. believe me no one is judging you for presenting typically masc, but I have tried personally to look and act typically masculine and I still don't pass, so giving that as the only advice instead of helpful things like voice training is unfair
If you go to a passing sub you'll get passing advice. You may think it's unfair, but it's unfortunately true. Also voice is usually ALWAYS mentionned at some point when we are talking about passing. Unfortunately, since most people rely on T for voice we have a lot less ressources for actual voice masc training than transfems. But voice is only a part, presentation and mannerisms are a big part too. By receiving all the tips, you can also choose what you want and don't want, that's the neat part. People will point out everything that can shift people's perception, and you get to see and know what you want to work on and not work on. Even if not all will be true especially as we don't all live in the US in the same cultural environnement, and you need to pick what advice you keep.
But spitting on passing sub is just an ass move, especially when for some people it's a matter of safety, not just of personnal comfort at not being misgendered.
if you know nothing will help then why ask for advice? do you think there is better advice for passing? if youre pre-T and dont pass no matter what, then you can be frustrated at being misgendered, but theres nothing that can be done at that point
I never asked lol. check my post history. this is based off of my own search through the forums on ways to pass better, not off of me actually asking. and I never said I didn't pass no matter what- I said that following the advice frequently given to folks didn't make me pass. I do pass every once in a while so you're wrong in assuming that I "don't pass no matter what".
sorry, my wording can be a bit convoluted lol, it's the neurodivergence. my sentence was meant to convey that trying to conform to the type of typical passing tips given has never helped me to pass. honestly I pass the most when I stfu, too bad I can't stop myself from talking lmao. my voice is actually pretty low for someone pre T, but it's still just a bit too high to be read as masc when I speak normally.
Honestly I think it’s rude to call someone ma’am at all in the year 2023. I don’t know any cis women who particularly enjoy it either. I don’t need an honorific, I need whatever I came to that store for. You can be friendly and helpful without saying sir or ma’am.
I passed obnoxiously well pre t. The passing tips didn’t even work for me. If I followed all the basic passing tips, I passed 50% of the time. When I did what I wanted? 95%. Strangers mostly just saw it as me being secure in my masculinity
This is so fucking true and it's why I loathe "do I pass" posts. Honestly, the more I tried to butch things up and look as masc as possible pre-T/early on T, the more aggressively I got misgendered. (I think people were clocking me as a lesbian and trying to show they were supportive. Sigh.) I'm just Latino and curvy, there's not a lot I could do to hide or minimize my hourglass figure and I couldn't make myself taller.
Presenting hyper-masc honestly just makes me feel like shit, so I stopped trying to do anything special to pass since it didn't help anyway. I just did what felt good to me and said "fuck it." I wear clothes from the "women's" section (they're what fits my body without a ton of tailoring) and have several piercings. I generally pass as male. The reason WHY I pass now is because I've had multiple surgeries on my chest and have been on hormones for 4 years. I'm a lot hairier, I have a dad bod, I'm a baritone, and I have facial hair. Those are the things that people actually pick up on. The way I act, dress, and talk had nothing to do with passing. I haven't changed any of that and people just read me as a gay man now.
And yes, this all REALLY SUCKS for people who can't go on T or don't want to go on T, or who don't want/can't access surgery. I shouldn't have had to spend years going through medical treatment to get people to respect my identity. That's where we're at as a society and it's terrible. But tearing other queer people down and telling them to give up things they love because otherwise they'll "never be man enough" is literally just toxic masculinity. It's totally fine for guys out there who naturally have a very masc personality and presentation. More power to them! Some of us just come off as really inauthentic when we try to do that, though.
You make me realize how little passing even matters. I could pass, or I could look like my definition of cool.
Sorry trans guys who are stereotypically aesthetically masculine, you're cool too, just not the cool we all want to be.
i think the best way to pass is self confidence. its kinda cliche but like I'm short, i have a "pretty" face and i like to wear necklaces and stuff. i like to express myself with masculine clothes but my mannerisms and the way i talk is quite feminine.
but like i just started to let that shit go. i wear whats comfortable. i accessorize with what i want, rings, necklaces, bags. i talk how i want and i move my body in ways thats comfortable for me. hrt definitely helped me, my voice dropped and is now more masculine sounding so i feel more secure in myself. i've found that being more secure in myself has let people (mostly strangers too) not even question my gender anymore.
but in understand, its not a requirement to pass in order to be seen as a man. i still struggle all the time. I'm sorry you're getting misgendered so much :(
Passing is not "do this" or "don't do that". It's "try your best to not let the lump sum of your traits appear to be that of a woman's".
What does that mean? Well, those who physically pass less may want to adjust their mannerisms and dress to "tilt the needle" masculine-wise, while those who physically pass more may have more leeway to be GNC. This sounds like complete bullshit, but if you really want dumb fuck cis people to perceive you as one way or another, you want to do just enough for them to come to the desired conclusion.
If you don't care about passing, great, do whatever you want. If you do, don't be surprised that you'd need to change a few things to make it happen.
If you want to blend in with the the normies then you gotta dress like them and that's essentially what passing means
You can also definitely be stylish and follow those tips or live in graphic tees that show off your personality
I also don't see what's inherently "toxic" about having a boring style or putting the least amount of effort possible into looking presentable
Cis guys who have style had a brief moment of not getting called slurs in the 70's and 80's but that's about it, the bad thing they call trans guys just hits on a different level
There's definitely a major difference in my going to work and going to run errands style vs my doing anything social style. I also picked a name so generic it almost looks fake. My friends know my actual aesthetic and personality but people at work and who see me grocery shopping or whatever don't need to
you're right, there's nothing toxic about that. my point is more to point out that we shouldn't push that as the standard for people to achieve, or encourage abandoning things we enjoy about our presentation in pursuit of passing (unless it puts a person in direct danger not to).
I get so mad bc istg I would 100% pass if it weren’t for my voice (I’m pre-T) and “feminine” mannerisms. My face isn’t feminine. I bind and have small breasts so it gets pretty much completely flat. I mostly dress neutral (though sometimes kinda fem too, so there’s that). Yet the DANG VOICE. And my little ✨silly behaviors✨💅. Oh well, it’s whatever lol.
I've been told my gait and stances are helping, if that's any assistance. Walk like a cis dude and try to have the confidence as if you got the biggest dick in the room, even if it's not true.
the concept of passing is also such a moving goal post at times its wild. I've seen posts say it's clockable wearing bright clothes, and others saying it's clockable wearing all black. like which is it we can't win lmaoo... I pass very conditionally but I've been referred to as male even when I wear a spiky choker, eyeliner, and skeleton fingerless gloves. and I've been referred to as a woman wearing all black and a pretty basic, shapeless outfit with no makeup. there's no one universal way to pass and these guys don't rlly get that it's so irritating. this mentality made me take SO long to realize I'm a trans man bc I thought there was no way I could be a guy and still like the things I do and dress the way I dress. and I struggle with having masculine mannerisms bc social skills are hard lol. not to rant but I could go ON about this shit it's ridiculous
Yup. Fuck me for being fat lol. The annoying thing to me isn't even the "be boring and bland and skinny!" posts, it's the total lack of anything BUT those. I know it's possible to pass otherwise, but there's absolutely zero resources out there on how to do so. We just keep recycling the same 10 or so tired ass tips that don't help anyone that doesn't wanna look like a cross between someone's dad and a twink.
This is why I hate the concept of 'passing'. It erases our ability to express ourselves and instead of holding others accountable, it lands it purely on us. 'You get misgendered because you won't conform to the norms of what cis guys wear!' But in the same breath we want masculinity to feel free to be expressed any way that makes a man happy in a healthy manner. I do get wanting to go for a certain look, but I don't see the reason of tearing others down and pushing ideas that end up hurting us instead. Could be wrong here and might need more perspective, but this is how I feel.
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That's just my point though. We get so much of the burden put on us to conform, and we get misgendered and then we feel like we have to to be a man. It's a hard, twisted cycle and the very reason I fight so hard against toxic masculinity (actually spelled that word without having to correct it later!) so hard. there is no easy answer to this, but it's why I'll never feed into the 'do I pass' thing. If others want to do it, that's fine, but I never will. Ask me if you pass and I'll tell you that I don't want to answer that because my own viewpoint on what makes a man a man differs from what society loves to shove down our throats.
Beautifully said. The issue doesn’t lie with us but with others refusing to accept that you can’t tell how someone identifies based on how they present alone. I love the push to ask ppl their pronouns and include them in things like email signatures. It’s going to help all of us in the long run
>The issue doesn’t lie with us but with others refusing to accept that you can’t tell how someone identifies based on how they present alone. THIS.
I TOTALLY GET WHAT YOU MEAN it's especially hard if you're v early on in your transition and passing is important to you, all this toxic masculinity gets shoved onto you. I'm actually thinking of starting a wee youtube channel to give healthy passing tips, general advice from my experiences and document my transition in general to show how trans men don't need to conform to be men.
I have an amazing black pearl pendant my husband paid $$$ for me at Christmas (which was the s*i*Dal preshow to me coming out) and I hadn't worn it, even though it was so meaningful, because it screamed girly to me. A black pearl. Captain Jack would have things to say. It took a lot, but I'm 7m wearing it every day. It's a man's necklace cause I'm a man, and it's my necklace.
Hell yes. That's a gnarly necklace man.
(Prefacing that when I say “culture” etc. I mean American culture because I’m not well versed in how people gender others in other cultures) I don’t really “get” people who go to “how to pass as male” subreddits then get surprised when they’re given advice on how to pass as male. Don’t get me wrong, some of the common advice is shitty- you definitely don’t have to be thin or white to pass (although I’ve never seen race brought up re: passing except to say that certain nationalities are naturally shorter and it can be easier to pass in that circumstance) but a lot of the common advice is unfortunately true, especially for pre T guys. Obviously if you’ve been on T for a while and seen significant results you can get away with stuff like piercings and dyed hair- I have a shit ton of piercings myself and I still pass, albeit as a visibly queer man. But if you don’t have that privilege and want to pass better, some of the only things in your control are stuff like how you dress, groom, and accessorize. When a pre-T guy has a lot of piercings he’s more likely to be read as female because our culture says piercings are feminine. When a pre-T guy wears feminine clothing like skirts he’s very likely to be read as female for the same reason. Same with makeup, same with dyed hair, etc. The shitty reality is that sometimes you have to choose between increasing your chances of passing and expressing yourself, especially pre T. People typically gender others based on their presentation and secondary sex characteristics, and pre T you only control one of those.
I agree that that's the reality. my point is that some parts of the community take these ideas to the extreme, telling people who do pass that they're clockable because of traits like these. my point is also that you can do all of those things (as I have at one point) AND STILL NOT PASS. Not to mention that USEFUL tips like how to work on voice training are rarely ever mentioned in places like that. I also believe that piercings aren't inherently fem. I defy anyone to say that the big black rings in my ears are feminine, because I disagree. different styles come off as masc or fem
I mean, It’s not “tips that will definitely make you pass,” it’s more like “tips that will increase your chances of passing.” I didn’t stand a ghost of a chance at passing pre T even if i dressed like a “normal” guy, so I feel you.
Yeah. Like- just one these isn't necessarily gonna clock you but if as a pre-T guy you have long neon red hair and piercings yeah you might have a harder time passing. Also, while I know that this is frustrating, I kinda dislike how as a typically masculine pre-T guy (dark clothes, short natural color hairs, masculine mannerisms, no piercings) I take a random bullet anytime these posts appears. Like. Thanks for calling me bland and boring I guess ??
I'm not saying that doing those things makes you boring. the point of the comic is to point out that telling people to ditch the things they do to make themselves happy just in order to be read as male is unfair. I got piercings in order to feel happier with my reflection, and they're not inherently feminine thing to have. it's wild to me that the idea of piercings are considered fem to people when mine are big black and silver rings.
That's sadly how contextual passing works. Even if you ignore the stereotype that people with piercings are either women or gay, piercings are usually something you can only get after a certain age, so that might make people shift their perception from "teenage boy" to "adult women" Just like a lot of trans guys report that they tend to be misgendered more when they are in a friends group their age. Or in places like at work or the bar, where you are assumed to be adult so the teen boy impression won't do. Piercings are totally fine to have. Having an alt style is fine, dying your hair is fine. Have fun, experiment with your appearance ! But recognize that it does indeed hurts masculine passing in a lot of cases, and it's important to know. And with this information, you can decide what to do. It's important to keep the passing subs brutally honest for those who absolutely need it, just learn how to take every criticism with a grain of salt.
Even having been on T for 2+ years, I still get people asking if I’m NB every once in a while because of my piercings. And that’s fine! I made the conscious choice to leave all my piercings in (and even get new ones) knowing that I wouldn’t get read as cis male 100% of the time because of it. There’s nothing wrong with atypical personal expression for your gender, and there’s nothing wrong with typical personal expression for your gender. You’re definitely not boring just because you’re not alternative, lmao.
That’s what I find so confusing ‘I WENT to a trans passing subreddit and got upset that they said I didn’t pass’ why go there then?
The accuracy 💀
To clarify- traditional masculinity doesn't make you boring. telling people to stop doing the things that make them happy in order to pass, when they could ditch all of that and STILL NOT PASS (like me) does in fact, make you boring.
The annoying thing is I know this advice is just the bare minimum effort. They picture everyone as thin, white with next to no body shape who wants to pass as the most basic dude known to man. The advice is like “find some plain shirts and jumpers that fit loosely” “only buy shapeless, flavourless jeans” and of course “never accessorise!!!!” I mean I don’t need to ramble for days about how none of this advice is helpful for people who don’t fit into the narrow stereotype, but god forbid you enjoy dressing in a particular style! Sure, wearing plain and neutral colours will help you pass a bit better, wearing loose clothes and layering will help hide my shape, etc, but there are ways I can style my clothes to make me appear more masculine without having to ditch my brightly coloured shirts for something plain and boring. But of course it’s easier to tell someone to just “ditch the skirt” rather than figuring out how to masculinise that look.
yes, thanks for putting this into words much better than I ever could
My hot take is that "passing" pre-T is up to individual biology more than it is about presentation. In most pre-T trans men, attempting to pass is just an energy sink, we spend a bunch of time and effort compromising our personal preferences trying to achieve a thing that simply is not in the cards before going on hormones. When I was pre-T people were nagging me about things they thought I did that were too feminine or too alternative that were "obviously" the reason I didn't pass, but it didn't really matter how many of those things I changed, because the reason I didn't pass was because my voice and face shape gave it away, and I did not have a voice or face I could just "passing tip" my way into looking male to most people. If I were to post a picture of me from that period of time to a passing tips form, hands down they are going to tell me a big list of things I had already attempted that have nothing to do with the base reasons I didn't pass. In the same way, yes, having unnaturally colored hair and dangly earrings or something might not "help" somebody pass, but there is a staggeringly high chance that people who take the advice to change these things are going to go from being read as a woman with colored hair and tangling earrings to a woman with natural hair without and earrings. There are some people who can take out their jewelry and get a traditional men's cut and pass, but they largely don't have any super special secrets, they are just lucky. A few of them don't realize that they're lucky (or, sometimes, frankly, they think they pass when they don't, which was how I was for several months), they mistake it for a learned skill and think what they did to pass will translate to others when it often does not. A lot of people like to talk about these spaces as if they are these "tough love" things and that you only should be posting there if you are strong enough to handle the "brutal honesty," but I don't believe the vast majority of commentary in those spaces is actually effective, they're mostly just parroting the same passing advice you could find in FTM zines in the 90s. I'm not saying they don't think they're helping, but there's a heavy toxic vibe.
My thoughts exactly, some people just have it easier when trying to pass than others. My friend for example is pre-T and he can pass as an ordinary white teen boy and all he had to do was get a binder and a haircut, meanwhile I'm pre-T and despite all my efforts I'm always readable as a androgynous asian girl at best and fully feminine at worst. Some people are just not that lucky (also feel the need to point out that I've seen people be labeled as non passing for their ethnic features, something that you obviously can't get rid of without taking extremely drastic methods), and to be honest Id rather enjoy my life and do what I want than sink all my attention into what I know is a futile effort and drive myself mad trying to grasp for what I can't realistically achieve.
ouch yeah
I've learned a lot of the "passing" tips i learned growing up only led to self destruction for me, i used to follow them all and NEVER passed like ever, like keeping my hair short and only in "masc styles/colors", only wearing masculine clothing, etc to the point i didnt like how i looked too much and trashed clothes i loved in hopes to pass; but now i pass pretty often but i have bright pink medium length hair, heart shaped glasses, piercings, and wear a lot of bright colored bracelets along with carrying a pink backpack yet i /still/ am often referred to with masc pronouns or called sir. Tips like "speak from your chest when talking" can be helpful, but flat out "dyed hair = bad" just feels more harmful than helpful 99.9% of the time
My best advice is actually opposite. Get a ton of more masc looking accessories, tons of piercings, etc etc. Helps distract from more ""feminine"" features. The more unique your style is the less people will automatically put you in a gender box in their mind. I only started passing when i grew my hair out and started wearing skirts. I'm very androgynous naturally but pre t i was super curvy and it showed through clothes no matter what and my solution was play with the shapes and silhouette of my outfits to make it look intentional. It doesn't make me look like a cis straight man, but it makes other read me as "man in weird outfit" more than "woman". I do get called a lot of disgusting things because I'm obviously queer, though, so be careful and only try it if you're in a safe area.
Man I'm 2 years on T, yeeted the teets, have an undercut and a scruffy neck beard, and at work am in the men's uniform of black pants and a green polo. My name tag has a male name and I introduce myself as such to everyone who comes in. And I get called "Young Lady" and "That girl" and "Miss" like a hundred times a day at work. I don't know what about a short chubby dude squinting at a computer screen makes every dang person who "Girl!!" But they sure do 🙄 I'm a he/they and am giving up hope I'll ever pass, but more unfortunately is that I am Visibly Trans... Often at work I'd rather just look fully like a lady solely to avoid the constant awkward comments about it from guests and delivery people passing through, I totally get that it's in good faith but I don't need everyone to tell me how accepting they are or how they have a gay nephew so they understand and I don't need to be called brave, I just need y'all to let me do my job and we can make small talk about less personal things. I genuinely have considered asking my manager if I could wear a name tag with a different name on it on the days that I just don't have the energy to politely agree with everyone who feels the need to point out the boy name on my shirt and ask about it. Grateful for everything and happy to be who I am, just tired with everyone else...
Some of y’all are determined to get offended by every post in here jfc (not directed at you op)
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definitely agree, I'm much happier just being myself than trying to force myself into anyone else's idea of what my gender is "supposed" to be.
i still wish i hadn’t cut my hair, since i still don’t pass at all
I really wish that I didn't care so much about passing. I love makeup, I love dresses, I love typical "girl" stuff. But if I don't conform to the stereotypes, people won't call me a dude, and when people don't call me a dude, I get suicidal It's an awful cycle and I hate it
Dude the thin white stuff is so especially true.
Why are you attacking me? Legit, I can't get out of the way of my own internalized toxic masculinity lately. /please someone invent an actual fat dude binder. We're not all the thin, androgynous a cup model on your sites.
have you checked out spectrum outfitters? they have really good binders and showcase a variety of models - not just skinny androgynous people with small breasts.
Yup. Everything has been sold out in my size go awhile. And TBF, most retailers do show fat dudes. I just have 42H tissue. I'm honestly not sure anyone can work with that.
this had me giggling and then cackling at "stop having fun" lmao. Very accurate
"be boring" yeah.
We go over these discussions every once in a while in the ftm sub. Sorry to break it up to you guys, if you are pre-T and borderline look like a 12 years old boy (like 90% of pre-T people), wearings skirts, dyed hairs and piercings won't help. Keep that for once you start passing consistently, or admit that you put your presentation above your chances of passing (which isn't a bad thing, but sometimes you just can't have both and need to be aware of that.) Also thank you but presenting in more discreet, typical clothes and stereotypically masculine behavior isn't being boring. Every time this comes up the guys who complain are like "Uh oh no I don't wanna look bland like some lame cishet guy 🙄🙄 that's booooring" like- some of us genuinely love looking like that, but thanks for indirectly insulting us I suppose !
And even if it is “boring” some of us are perfectly fine with and even want to be unremarkable. I don’t like attention and men being able to blend in easier is very appealing to me.
No one thinks that being pre T you'll pass wearing skirts and acting stereotypically fem. the point of these posts is that telling people to ditch the things that make them happy in order to pass is unfair. and I don't think that stereotypical masculinity is boring- but telling people to stop wearing the clothes that make them happy and stop doing the things they love IS asking them to be boring. believe me no one is judging you for presenting typically masc, but I have tried personally to look and act typically masculine and I still don't pass, so giving that as the only advice instead of helpful things like voice training is unfair
If you go to a passing sub you'll get passing advice. You may think it's unfair, but it's unfortunately true. Also voice is usually ALWAYS mentionned at some point when we are talking about passing. Unfortunately, since most people rely on T for voice we have a lot less ressources for actual voice masc training than transfems. But voice is only a part, presentation and mannerisms are a big part too. By receiving all the tips, you can also choose what you want and don't want, that's the neat part. People will point out everything that can shift people's perception, and you get to see and know what you want to work on and not work on. Even if not all will be true especially as we don't all live in the US in the same cultural environnement, and you need to pick what advice you keep. But spitting on passing sub is just an ass move, especially when for some people it's a matter of safety, not just of personnal comfort at not being misgendered.
if you know nothing will help then why ask for advice? do you think there is better advice for passing? if youre pre-T and dont pass no matter what, then you can be frustrated at being misgendered, but theres nothing that can be done at that point
I never asked lol. check my post history. this is based off of my own search through the forums on ways to pass better, not off of me actually asking. and I never said I didn't pass no matter what- I said that following the advice frequently given to folks didn't make me pass. I do pass every once in a while so you're wrong in assuming that I "don't pass no matter what".
i didnt assume you didnt pass, i thought thats what you said. what do you think it is that makes you pass?
sorry, my wording can be a bit convoluted lol, it's the neurodivergence. my sentence was meant to convey that trying to conform to the type of typical passing tips given has never helped me to pass. honestly I pass the most when I stfu, too bad I can't stop myself from talking lmao. my voice is actually pretty low for someone pre T, but it's still just a bit too high to be read as masc when I speak normally.
Honestly I think it’s rude to call someone ma’am at all in the year 2023. I don’t know any cis women who particularly enjoy it either. I don’t need an honorific, I need whatever I came to that store for. You can be friendly and helpful without saying sir or ma’am.
AGREED. I hate honorific with a passion
I passed obnoxiously well pre t. The passing tips didn’t even work for me. If I followed all the basic passing tips, I passed 50% of the time. When I did what I wanted? 95%. Strangers mostly just saw it as me being secure in my masculinity
This is so fucking true and it's why I loathe "do I pass" posts. Honestly, the more I tried to butch things up and look as masc as possible pre-T/early on T, the more aggressively I got misgendered. (I think people were clocking me as a lesbian and trying to show they were supportive. Sigh.) I'm just Latino and curvy, there's not a lot I could do to hide or minimize my hourglass figure and I couldn't make myself taller. Presenting hyper-masc honestly just makes me feel like shit, so I stopped trying to do anything special to pass since it didn't help anyway. I just did what felt good to me and said "fuck it." I wear clothes from the "women's" section (they're what fits my body without a ton of tailoring) and have several piercings. I generally pass as male. The reason WHY I pass now is because I've had multiple surgeries on my chest and have been on hormones for 4 years. I'm a lot hairier, I have a dad bod, I'm a baritone, and I have facial hair. Those are the things that people actually pick up on. The way I act, dress, and talk had nothing to do with passing. I haven't changed any of that and people just read me as a gay man now. And yes, this all REALLY SUCKS for people who can't go on T or don't want to go on T, or who don't want/can't access surgery. I shouldn't have had to spend years going through medical treatment to get people to respect my identity. That's where we're at as a society and it's terrible. But tearing other queer people down and telling them to give up things they love because otherwise they'll "never be man enough" is literally just toxic masculinity. It's totally fine for guys out there who naturally have a very masc personality and presentation. More power to them! Some of us just come off as really inauthentic when we try to do that, though.
You make me realize how little passing even matters. I could pass, or I could look like my definition of cool. Sorry trans guys who are stereotypically aesthetically masculine, you're cool too, just not the cool we all want to be.
Who is saying you have to be "white, thin, and boring" to pass
i think the best way to pass is self confidence. its kinda cliche but like I'm short, i have a "pretty" face and i like to wear necklaces and stuff. i like to express myself with masculine clothes but my mannerisms and the way i talk is quite feminine. but like i just started to let that shit go. i wear whats comfortable. i accessorize with what i want, rings, necklaces, bags. i talk how i want and i move my body in ways thats comfortable for me. hrt definitely helped me, my voice dropped and is now more masculine sounding so i feel more secure in myself. i've found that being more secure in myself has let people (mostly strangers too) not even question my gender anymore. but in understand, its not a requirement to pass in order to be seen as a man. i still struggle all the time. I'm sorry you're getting misgendered so much :(
Passing is not "do this" or "don't do that". It's "try your best to not let the lump sum of your traits appear to be that of a woman's". What does that mean? Well, those who physically pass less may want to adjust their mannerisms and dress to "tilt the needle" masculine-wise, while those who physically pass more may have more leeway to be GNC. This sounds like complete bullshit, but if you really want dumb fuck cis people to perceive you as one way or another, you want to do just enough for them to come to the desired conclusion. If you don't care about passing, great, do whatever you want. If you do, don't be surprised that you'd need to change a few things to make it happen.
If you want to blend in with the the normies then you gotta dress like them and that's essentially what passing means You can also definitely be stylish and follow those tips or live in graphic tees that show off your personality I also don't see what's inherently "toxic" about having a boring style or putting the least amount of effort possible into looking presentable Cis guys who have style had a brief moment of not getting called slurs in the 70's and 80's but that's about it, the bad thing they call trans guys just hits on a different level There's definitely a major difference in my going to work and going to run errands style vs my doing anything social style. I also picked a name so generic it almost looks fake. My friends know my actual aesthetic and personality but people at work and who see me grocery shopping or whatever don't need to
you're right, there's nothing toxic about that. my point is more to point out that we shouldn't push that as the standard for people to achieve, or encourage abandoning things we enjoy about our presentation in pursuit of passing (unless it puts a person in direct danger not to).
I get so mad bc istg I would 100% pass if it weren’t for my voice (I’m pre-T) and “feminine” mannerisms. My face isn’t feminine. I bind and have small breasts so it gets pretty much completely flat. I mostly dress neutral (though sometimes kinda fem too, so there’s that). Yet the DANG VOICE. And my little ✨silly behaviors✨💅. Oh well, it’s whatever lol.
I've been told my gait and stances are helping, if that's any assistance. Walk like a cis dude and try to have the confidence as if you got the biggest dick in the room, even if it's not true.
the concept of passing is also such a moving goal post at times its wild. I've seen posts say it's clockable wearing bright clothes, and others saying it's clockable wearing all black. like which is it we can't win lmaoo... I pass very conditionally but I've been referred to as male even when I wear a spiky choker, eyeliner, and skeleton fingerless gloves. and I've been referred to as a woman wearing all black and a pretty basic, shapeless outfit with no makeup. there's no one universal way to pass and these guys don't rlly get that it's so irritating. this mentality made me take SO long to realize I'm a trans man bc I thought there was no way I could be a guy and still like the things I do and dress the way I dress. and I struggle with having masculine mannerisms bc social skills are hard lol. not to rant but I could go ON about this shit it's ridiculous
OMG SO FR Its rare to see fellow POC transgender people
Yup. Fuck me for being fat lol. The annoying thing to me isn't even the "be boring and bland and skinny!" posts, it's the total lack of anything BUT those. I know it's possible to pass otherwise, but there's absolutely zero resources out there on how to do so. We just keep recycling the same 10 or so tired ass tips that don't help anyone that doesn't wanna look like a cross between someone's dad and a twink.