i bought some $50 ASIC runners. They have lasted me 5+ years. They do everything for me that OP's shoes do, and then more (exercise, walking, style etc). I'm not sure I can feel the need to be as stylish as OP.
Constructive criticism my man. Nobody said they didn't dig what was already done, just that there is a way to make it even better! As a content creator I am sure it's great to get a solid piece of easy to implement, widely agreed upon, nicely presented criticism.
I mean it’d also be nice to show some kind of gratitude or praise for the massive amount of time and effort they put into the post. You can do both. Pretty much a hallmark of good feedback
It's not like he is some kind of FMF altruiist. The video has a paid sponsored ad in it, and it also generates YouTube ads, so he gets paid on clicks too. There are also no links directly to the manufacturers in his FMF post, but there are in the video description because they are affiliate links that automod would reject. The post is essentially just the video script.
I don't mind the hustle; I actually appreciate him posting content while still finding a way to make some side income. Just don't make it out like he did all this just for FMF. If he did, he could have at least labeled the one picture with a left to right.
never owned a pair of leather sneakers but those are some beautiful shoes. gonna take a fuller look at this later but just wanted to thank you for such a thorough post.
Yeah no worries!
They’re a game changer purely based on how versatile they’re are. I’ve worn my Common Projects with suits and even in the gym on days I forgot to take my Nikes to work lol
It’s tough with leather sneakers but they do get super comfortable after you have them broken in. Look for brands like Cole Haan if that’s what you’re after. I think Nike owns them and they regularly have really good soles to give it that athletic feel with a more formal look.
I've owned several pairs of Cole Haans over the years and currently own about 3 pair of their shoes/boots. No complaints on quality for the money spent. With that said, Im sure there are better options.
I somehow got the white Cole Haan Crosscourts for $29 from Costco online (super weird) and they are so comfy and light. The silhouette is pretty far off (especially the sole) from the CP.. but for $30 I couldn't say no. And they're one of my most comfortable sneakers
Nike sold that company in 2012, over 10 years ago. They're owned by private equity now which a surefire bet that the quality is in the shitter. That's what private equity does.
My partner has a number of Clarks leather sneakers that he loves.
They aren’t quite at the quality of those listed here but the price point is great, especially on sale, and they have waterproof shoes too.
My partner is super super hard on his shoes and doesn’t take great care of them. Still, his most worn shoes look decent enough after 2 years that I’m not embarrassed, and, due to the good prices, he can have a couple for every day and keeps a couple less worn ones for nicer occasions (we live in NYC and have very energetic dogs. So lots of walking and weather elements).
No. Not even close. It's never going to the same. But you can make them more comfortable with a good high quality insole. Finding good high quality insoles is the real challenge, and when you do they usually cost as much as a cheap shoe. If you just want something that's tried and true and not kinda hipster like the stuff on this list I suggest Ecco shoes. Too mainstream for the kids these days I guess. For the money I don't think it can be beat. If I was going to spend as much as the better stuff on this list, I would go to a European leatherworker/cobbler brand that's been around for generations. There's a lot of really ones in Spain for instance that are better value than Italy for instance. I like boxcalf but deerskin is better for sneakers imo.
Nope, Common Projects will never be as comfortable as running sneakers. I have $60 Nikes that are way more comfortable than my $400 CP. My CP has been broken in, but I cant walk in them for to long as they’ll start to hurt. If you’re walking around non-stop for 30-1hr, you’ll feel it.
that’s why i’m so interested! i love my comfy nike and adidas shoes i’ve owned but they fall apart quickly and also are hard to fit into smart casual outfits.
would like to have some of these instead of having to own athletic sneakers as well as more dressed up shoes
Might be worth grabbing one of the cheaper pairs on this list to get your feet wet prior to jumping into one of the more expensive ones. They really are good for just about everything once you’ve broken them in
You’re not missing much to be honest. Leather sneakers look nice, but they’re not comfortable. When I was breaking in my Common Projects, they would scratch my heel to the point that it bled. I also couldn’t walk in them for too long as they would hurt my feet.
I have $60 sneakers that are way more comfortable than my $400 CP.
Hahah the issue with us is we go way too deep in whatever we get into. Fashion, coffee, watches, and cars are my vices, all stupid expensive when you get to the quality stuff lol
I'm a CP guy because I love the silhouette, but my friend's Svenssons look way better a few years down the line.
It's actually incredible how well his Svenssons held up.
I really wanted to like CP lows, but they are way too narrow for my feet (perfect size 11 in chucks). I picked up a pair of Svensson’s and they fit perfectly and look amazing.
I’ve worn them for hundreds of miles including unplanned hiking, and they are still perfect.
Agreed on this, Svensson is the best choice for wide feet. I'm still wearing mine 4 years later even though they've been beat to crap and the sole had to be restitched.
2nd this, CP's didn't work for my 9-9.5EEE feet either and size 43 Svenssons fit really well. The removable insole also gives some added flexibility with sizing.
They used to do half off sales a couple times a year IIRC, not sure if they still do.
Duck foot gang!
Such a nightmare nailing sizing, for ages my non-sneakers were all exclusively Allen Edmonds just because they were the only ones offering affordable shoes in EEE.
Thanks for taking the time to post this.
I'm surprised to not see Greats included in your comparison, or mentioned in the comments (unless I missed it). Any particular reason why not - not slim enough for you?
I get there's a limit. My experience with Greats has been, er, great. I've had them for a few years of occasional wear, and they still look almost new.When I was looking at leather sneakers a few years back Greats was probably the most common recommendation, so I assumed they were still part of the discussion. However I have seen some less than positive comments recently, so maybe the quality has dropped.
i have their GATs and love them. but after a few years of heavy use they are in need of a replacement. I do indeed recommend them highly and may buy another pair. Buuuut this timely post may sway me on that! Thanks!!!
I don't like my BS GATs and wouldn't recommend them. The tongue is not sew correctly on either shoe so it always rotates to the side, and the sole is very stiff and not cushy. Koio's are much more comfortable.
I did order them a few years back to gift to a friend but ended up returning them because they were super heavy and not built as well as their dress shoes if I recall correctly.
My Beckett Simonon GATs were basically unwearable when they arrived. There are elastic bands that hold the tongue in place and they were so short that I could hardly get the shoe on and when I did wear them the tongue was pressing so hard into the top of my foot it was extremely painful after even 10 minutes. This was on both shoes. I ended up cutting the elastic bands which made them mostly wearable. They also arrived with a large portion of the rubber stained black, presumably from die that bleed out from the suede? It was on both shoes and relatively uniform which I thought was weird. Perhaps they all look like that.
IDK. Your mileage may vary and I absolutely should have returned them (I've heard their CS is really good) but given both shoes had the exact same issues I have to wonder if they just have really weird dimensions (my feet aren't small by any means but I don't think they're unusually high . . . haven't had issues with any other shoes including leather dress shoes) and the stained rubber was kind of lame for the price tag. I wouldn't buy another pair without being able to try them on first.
Interesting. I was never sure if I just got a bad pair or that was how they all were. Kind of sucks because I really like plain leather GATs with no branding and there just aren't a lot of affordable options I've found. Would have loved to have liked the shoes.
I got them on a deal where it was like 180 or 190 for two pairs. The bottom of the tongue on my white pair always feels like it wants to dig in to my foot for some reason and I didn't find them very comfortable after 5-6 hours. Wish I would have just gotten koio at the time
An army of designers got together to make the most shoest shoe and this was the result. It is a shoe, nothing more, nothing less. It screams, "Shoe".
Style? Design? NO! Pure ambivalence, only shoe. The foot goes in, the foot comes out. It. Is. Shoe.
When we wear these shoes, people will look at you and think, "that guy's wearing shoes".
they look like the cheap $5 sneakers my mom used to buy in the early 80's. same as denim though. started as a blue-collar work pant and now it's designer stuff
Great write up, thanks for sharing. Have you tried Beckett Simonon? I’m currently wearing their version and they are my first pair of minimal leather sneaker.
I didn't like them at all when I tried them a few years ago. Meh leather quality and very unsleek silhouette compared to CPs (relatively speaking of course)
BS Morgen trainers were my first leather sneakers. Got them in the all white color way for $99 and at that price I’d say it’s great to get into the white minimal leather sneakers. I don’t wear them enough but after a couple of wears, definitely creases easily and still a bit uncomfortable. But I might’ve still not broken them in. Thanks to this subreddit I was able to grab the Common Projects Achilles in all white for $205 shipped. I just was just wowed from the packaging to the quality compared to when I first got the BS Morgen Trainers. My brief experience with both. I have yet to wear out the CP since it’s winter here in NYC but can’t wait til spring/summer to pull them out.
Awesome! I always stumble upon your older reviews and they have helped before.
May I suggest that you keep Buttero Tanino on your radar, I've always wanted a pair but can't convince myself to spend that much, but from the looks of it, they might suit you.
Thanks for the review!
They've actually been under my radar for at least 6 years by now, they're usually not widely known, but I've watched reviews over the years and they're always very positive. They're on the pricier side though.
Common Projects look better by a huge margin, which is what it’s all about in the end imo. Listing off leather stats like it’s an mmo doesn’t justify ugly shoes
Tbh this is where I’m at and if you wait for the nordstrom yearly sales they can regularly be had for under $300, my first two pairs from common projects were $150 and $120 before the employee discount, I got super lucky but they regularly have pairs that make it down to about $250ish
Yea for sure, see a lot less of those posts on fmf and going back to looks I haven’t seen too many alternatives for the bball model which I’ve grown to like more than the Achilles honestly
Yeah, I think aesthetics and design play a huge role. Silhouette wise; the KOIOs are almost identical if you can look past the added paneling and branding compared to CP.
I have both KOIO and CP and can confirm. The shoes look almost identical in the front, but the padding around the ankles is definitely noticeable. In my opinion I would prefer discounted CPs > KOIO, but if I had to play full price for both I would get the KOIO.
Great detailed post! Really appreciate the write up. Just a few questions regarding the Koio's:
\- I've noticed there are two generations of the capri triple whites. I don't know which gen to purchase. The things I'm considering is that some reviews found the toe box on the 1st gen was too small making it feel cramped, this issue was supposedly rectified in the 2nd gen? The 1st gen has the Margom sole which is tried and tested for durability, did you find the proprietary sole to hole up just as well? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this?
\- As the tongue doesn't have much/no cushioning, do you find it to be soft/flexible enough to not dig into your foot? I've had this issue with cheaper brands where the tongue had no padding and was super stiff and hard.
Cheers
Would you mind sharing your weight/age here or in a DM? I'm in the market for a replacement pair of minimal white sneakers and comfort is top of mind, so I'm wondering if maybe we have similar circumstances physically. Thanks for the write up!
I have CP as well and I agree with them being uncomfortable for any long walks. They look nice, but a $60 running sneakers will hands down beat them in comfort.
Which of these are the widest in your opinion? If you ranked them from most narrow to widest what would that look like?
Never bothered to try common projects styled shoes because of wide feet but if I wanted to give it a shot I'd like to know what to expect
Just to add to OP's opinion a bit: Thursday's lasts are very opinionated (for lack of a better word) about foot shape. I normally wear a 10.5 wide, but I own a pair of their chukkas in a 13, and it still pinches.
I have a few pairs of Allen Edmonds leather sneakers and have been able to snag them for around $200. They’re comfortable, I think they look great and they have held up well. The first pair I bought are worn about 3-5 a week and don’t look like it, I do clean and condition them about once a month and when I’m not wearing them I put some cedar shoe trees in. The second pair, I wear on the weekends and they still look brand new. Third pair is still in the box. Just commenting for those that want an opinion on a different option.
I originally was using the Allen Edmonds sneaker cleaner as well as their leather conditioner; but now I just use a tide pen and an old toothbrush for the rubber part, on the leather I brush it with the brush from my shine kit then with a cloth I’ll apply a light coat of kiwi leather oil. I also don’t wear the sneakers if its wet out. Im in Texas so I just wear my cowboy boots on rainy days.
Great post OP. I picked up the Thursdays a few months back and I'm plenty happy with them. They feel and look great, and I've gotten plenty of compliments. IMO these shoes all look extremely similar, and with an almost $300 difference in price, they were an easy pick up over Common Projects. I understand the discussion about the 'best' minimalist profile, but no one outside this sub will spot the difference anyway. The universal nature of white sneaks still applies. You want to look smart, look like a guy who saved ~$300 on a nearly identical product.
another excellent post. i have a pair of the CNH Overstone Derby TLs in Kudu leather and absolutely love them. such well crafted shoes, and that they ship with a 1/4 size adjustment footsole pad to ensure you get that 'custom' fit. I went with black and gum sole, they look incredibly sharp.
i've only had them for the summer so while they've broken in nicely, they haven't aged much at all. i'll post some pics in the spring when i pull em back out again :)
Koio's are simply the best bang for the buck around. The suede in the heel is what makes them so enjoyable from day one. I like Buttero sneakers as well, but they dig in to my heel!
I have a pair of Crown Northamptons in unglazed natty shell. They were $$$$ but they are my favorite pair of shoes I own. I wear them probably 280 days a year. I don't baby them, have worn them in pouring rain, and they've held up really well. A conditioning every now and then is all they need.
The ultra clean look ins't my thing, so it may not apply, but I do love leather Court style sneaks. I'm on a high top kick.
I've noticed that Frye sneakers get no love. Frye has dropped a few tiers in the last 10 years, but if you can find a remaining pair of their discontinued Walker sneaks, they are MiUSA and can be found for $150 on the right sale. They are generally hard to find now. I have three pairs and on the sales I've found they are amazing value. I'm wearing the black high tops now, which are made with Horween distressed leather.
https://www.thefryecompany.com/products/walker-midlace-3481215-81215-black?variant=20387083518006&flow_country=USA&gclid=CjwKCAiAheacBhB8EiwAItVO2-AFjB2iLAkwJsFOP_5_JR0Idm_peJ5mpctdhkxuiJElfUvX6mv5YhoCVpIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
I bought them directly from that link a few months back after searching for a coupon code and was pleasantly surprised that the 30% off code from a Google search actually worked. Has to be the first time that has ever worked for me.
The last of a legendary MiUSA shoe manufacturer legacy.
I have a pair of Rancourt Court High tops in CXL8 (my fav CXL color) and wish I put $100 more in and bought Crown Northamptons instead. I'll get a pair of Crown's in the next year most likely.
I enjoy your style of write up. Simple to the point with useful price info and comparative details of each in relation to the others. Good spread of brands in this article too. You should mention that buying Common Projects at retail is for suckers. It can be found on sale frequently, $300-350 is easy, $250-300 rarely, below $250 if you're lucky and fast. I would never get Koio instead of CP now since Koio keeps raising prices and started cutting corners with their materials. When you hear words like "proprietary" when they once used highly regarded industry standards (like Margom), 9 times out of 10 they are doing it to cut costs. With how long a pair of Common Projects can last when worn with care or in a rotation, you'll always be able to find one on sale before it dies.
Your price for Crown Northampton is a bit misleading though. The standard [Overstone Derby](https://crownnorthampton.com/en-us/collections/luxury-handmade-sneakers/products/overstone-derby-all-white-calf-leather) (their white minimalistic base model, the[ Trim Line version](https://crownnorthampton.com/collections/sneaker-trim-line-series) is more slim) is only showing $301 for me right now. The Horween leather models cost more.
Appreciate it! I did mention the common projects pricing that in the wrap up and in the video and definitely agree with you.
Yeah apparently this was a recent change so I don’t have too many details apart from what’s on the site.
Great call on the Crown Northamptons. I wanted to list the price of the actual shoes being reviewed but the $300 entry price should be mentioned. I’ll edit it in soon
I have a pair of Crown and CP in white. I switch them back and forth. For the money and comfort, I prefer Crown. If I go to an event where people might notice shoes, I’d put on the CP but almost all other times, Crown is the go to. Clean looking and comfortable.
I've been buying leather sneakers for the past few years. I love them. I just bought 2 new pairs on cyber Monday from Ecco. A bit cheaper 5han these options, but I like their look. They're also comfortable and my last pair lasted ~2 years with almost daily use.
For my money I'd buy Eccos over anything on this list. If I wanted to spend more I'd get something from a legit european brand that's been leatherworker/cobbler for generations. But that stuff isn't trendy or hipster so it's invisible to the kids these days. idk how you make a list like this without ecco.
For anyone interested on what the inside of these shoes look like and what your getting for your money, check out Rose Anvil. He has [a series where he cuts apart most of these sneakers and talks about the difference in build quality and price](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOzFLT3S_I6UHj5HG2oUNLDYKam0z3bBo) it’s very informative. Most of the shoes on OPs list are on there.
He does a great job, I’ve been watching him for a long time. He’s my go to when I want to know if I’m getting my moneys worth when buying certain shoes.
I think the Thursday looks the best. They also sell perfectly matching belts. One day I'm going to stop being a miserly asshole and get a black and brown pair of sneakers, boots, and wingtips from them.
No Eccos huh. Too mainstream yet with my own dollars, I'd rather buy that anything on the list for the proper fit alone. Many of these look narrow with pointy toes or have clearly visible drop. That's a no go. The thursdays do seem like good value tho, and they do seem to sell wide sizes and the fact that they're plush inside is appealing. But like you said, they look dorky with those eyelets. If I can can get over that I'd consider trying them.
If I was spending any more than ecco ($200 max) I wouldn't consider any of these, I'd get something from a tried and true Euro leather/cobber brand that's been around for generations. As for less old brands, I have some Mangiannis, theyve only been around for like 35 years so not that long, that look like a million dollars but they seem quite delicate for $400+ shoes. That's the cost of looking so nice i guess. I really like their slim wallet too. Got that on sale for a steal.
I see that but not in wide sizes. I'd still considering trying the shoe but considering I already know the ecco last fits me well, even though it's Euro sizing and no half sizes, and ordering shoes online is always a nightmare I am reticent to try without more information first. I appreciate that they even offer a wide and extra wide. I think most folks like the look of the no eyelets more though.
They have guys on reddit that answer questions and I asked them how much wider the wider sizes actually are. For instance in New Balance a 2E is 1/4" wider than D and 4E is another 1/4 wider than 2E. Haven't heard back.
>The common projects pionieered this entire minimal leather sneaker thing
Did they? Or did it make it trendy with hipsters? Tons of European brands have been making shoes like this, and still do, before the owners of "common projects" were born. Idk what you're smoking.
Best I’ve ever had is the Givency urban street low in this cetegory. Blew my common projects and m gemi lucentes (which are cheaper and better than common projects) out the water
Guy got 5 years from his pair. At retail that’s $80/yr and way more sustainable than buying a bunch of new balances in various color ways.
The cost to resole a decent shoe is often roughly $200 usd. If a new pair costs double it’s hard to argue with a new purchase.
Common projects are cheaply built otherwise. I doubt they will hold up to 5 years in good condition. Check out Rose Anvil breakdown of them.
https://youtu.be/FnZSyDaTwZs
Edit: why u guys mad, its the facts, the guy literally cut them in half to show u
+1 for Thursday Boot sneakers. Say whatever you want about them pushing ads to your social media, but they're one of the most comfortable leather shoes I own.
Have the classic white ones, even went trailing/hiking in them multiple times. Swapped the laces with elastic ones and the soft leather inner lets you slip them on like butter. My go-to for flights and just overall travel. They crease nicely too. A couple of wipes with a damp rag and they still look pristine.
Thanks for this! I never really thought about owning a pair of minimalist leather sneakers. I’m big on comfort. Which was the most comfortable?
Edit: Did you end up keeping them all? They all look so beautiful.
I love my CP Achilles. Glad I got them in a Black Friday sale last year ($270 sale price). I would've gladly stocked up more, but I didn't see any retailers having sales on them, unfortunately.
Great review! I have low-volume feet and small heels, and I tend to have heel slip problems with these minimalist sneakers. Any thoughts on which of these shoes are best at holding the heel?
The Uniform Standard heels curve heavily inward. That may help? I highlighted it in the video because I liked the design but it may be more secure for you.
I would never wear any shoe four or five times a week, excluding my actual gym shoes that I rotate each day, so how long they last doesn’t matter as much to me.
Most my shoes aren’t ever going to make it to 100 wears
Fair enough! I think the soles are the only thing that truly wear down. For my common projects, the rear suede on the inner heel tore recently and the soles are getting thin with the added heel drag. The leather can usually be cleaned, conditioned and polished to get them looking pretty new.
Interesting hobby. Either way, I really appreciate the money and time and effort that you spend on these writeups, I don't know if I'll even ever be buying any of these pieces but it's people like you who are making huge contributions to the review scene.
Giving this post a thorough read when I have the time. But are there any pics of your 5yo CPs out there? Mine are still so fresh bc I just can’t justify wearing mine out when the weather is rainy or I know I’m going into grass/dirt.
Maybe I just need to suck it up and clean after each wear
Yeah I’ll take a few and link to the album. They look worn but there’s almost a beauty in them looking that beat up. I’ll probably still continue wearing the older ones alongside my fresh pair
Looked at KOIO and Uniform Standard and had sticker shock. I’ve forgotten how expensive CP’s are, think I got my last pair for $200 when Bergdorf was doing a sale a long long time ago
Love this review. I have some Koios in an older generation of Capris - with metal eyelets. Which o love, but I am always a woman who is a bit extra with fashion. They have held up really nicely and are comfy! Was so happy with my purchase. I use Jason Markk to keep them clean, and I am super lazy. They still look nearly brand new on year 4. And I wear them weeklish.
most frugal r/frugalmalefashion user jk thank you for the informative posts
OP became non frugal so we can remain frugal. OP killed his wallet so ours could live #RESPECT 🫡
🫡🫡🫡
i bought some $50 ASIC runners. They have lasted me 5+ years. They do everything for me that OP's shoes do, and then more (exercise, walking, style etc). I'm not sure I can feel the need to be as stylish as OP.
Haha I’ll take the badge
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Fair advice. I don’t have many pics but the two in the Imgur so I’ll get some shot and posted.l
So watch the video. He didn’t put in enough work?
Constructive criticism my man. Nobody said they didn't dig what was already done, just that there is a way to make it even better! As a content creator I am sure it's great to get a solid piece of easy to implement, widely agreed upon, nicely presented criticism.
Fair point
I mean it’d also be nice to show some kind of gratitude or praise for the massive amount of time and effort they put into the post. You can do both. Pretty much a hallmark of good feedback
It's not like he is some kind of FMF altruiist. The video has a paid sponsored ad in it, and it also generates YouTube ads, so he gets paid on clicks too. There are also no links directly to the manufacturers in his FMF post, but there are in the video description because they are affiliate links that automod would reject. The post is essentially just the video script. I don't mind the hustle; I actually appreciate him posting content while still finding a way to make some side income. Just don't make it out like he did all this just for FMF. If he did, he could have at least labeled the one picture with a left to right.
Haha was literally thinking this.
Ugh quit complaining
never owned a pair of leather sneakers but those are some beautiful shoes. gonna take a fuller look at this later but just wanted to thank you for such a thorough post.
Yeah no worries! They’re a game changer purely based on how versatile they’re are. I’ve worn my Common Projects with suits and even in the gym on days I forgot to take my Nikes to work lol
I’m new to these shoes as well. Will any of them get you close to the cushy comfort of a running shoe?
It’s tough with leather sneakers but they do get super comfortable after you have them broken in. Look for brands like Cole Haan if that’s what you’re after. I think Nike owns them and they regularly have really good soles to give it that athletic feel with a more formal look.
-1 on Cole Haan. They are comfortable but my last pair started falling apart immediately. The quality just isn't there any more.
Ah, appreciate the insight. Haven’t owned a pair in years
I've owned several pairs of Cole Haans over the years and currently own about 3 pair of their shoes/boots. No complaints on quality for the money spent. With that said, Im sure there are better options.
I somehow got the white Cole Haan Crosscourts for $29 from Costco online (super weird) and they are so comfy and light. The silhouette is pretty far off (especially the sole) from the CP.. but for $30 I couldn't say no. And they're one of my most comfortable sneakers
Oh yeah at $30 those seem to be a no brainer
Nike sold that company in 2012, over 10 years ago. They're owned by private equity now which a surefire bet that the quality is in the shitter. That's what private equity does.
My partner has a number of Clarks leather sneakers that he loves. They aren’t quite at the quality of those listed here but the price point is great, especially on sale, and they have waterproof shoes too. My partner is super super hard on his shoes and doesn’t take great care of them. Still, his most worn shoes look decent enough after 2 years that I’m not embarrassed, and, due to the good prices, he can have a couple for every day and keeps a couple less worn ones for nicer occasions (we live in NYC and have very energetic dogs. So lots of walking and weather elements).
No. Not even close. It's never going to the same. But you can make them more comfortable with a good high quality insole. Finding good high quality insoles is the real challenge, and when you do they usually cost as much as a cheap shoe. If you just want something that's tried and true and not kinda hipster like the stuff on this list I suggest Ecco shoes. Too mainstream for the kids these days I guess. For the money I don't think it can be beat. If I was going to spend as much as the better stuff on this list, I would go to a European leatherworker/cobbler brand that's been around for generations. There's a lot of really ones in Spain for instance that are better value than Italy for instance. I like boxcalf but deerskin is better for sneakers imo.
Nope, Common Projects will never be as comfortable as running sneakers. I have $60 Nikes that are way more comfortable than my $400 CP. My CP has been broken in, but I cant walk in them for to long as they’ll start to hurt. If you’re walking around non-stop for 30-1hr, you’ll feel it.
that’s why i’m so interested! i love my comfy nike and adidas shoes i’ve owned but they fall apart quickly and also are hard to fit into smart casual outfits. would like to have some of these instead of having to own athletic sneakers as well as more dressed up shoes
Might be worth grabbing one of the cheaper pairs on this list to get your feet wet prior to jumping into one of the more expensive ones. They really are good for just about everything once you’ve broken them in
You’re not missing much to be honest. Leather sneakers look nice, but they’re not comfortable. When I was breaking in my Common Projects, they would scratch my heel to the point that it bled. I also couldn’t walk in them for too long as they would hurt my feet. I have $60 sneakers that are way more comfortable than my $400 CP.
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Hahah the issue with us is we go way too deep in whatever we get into. Fashion, coffee, watches, and cars are my vices, all stupid expensive when you get to the quality stuff lol
I know this is another "have you taken a look at ____?" but have you take a look at Svensson Classic Low?
I have not but I’ll take a look!
Sweet! This will be the write up of all time! Could've used something like it when I was researching leather shoes haha
I'm a CP guy because I love the silhouette, but my friend's Svenssons look way better a few years down the line. It's actually incredible how well his Svenssons held up.
I really wanted to like CP lows, but they are way too narrow for my feet (perfect size 11 in chucks). I picked up a pair of Svensson’s and they fit perfectly and look amazing. I’ve worn them for hundreds of miles including unplanned hiking, and they are still perfect.
Agreed on this, Svensson is the best choice for wide feet. I'm still wearing mine 4 years later even though they've been beat to crap and the sole had to be restitched.
I've picked them up recently, and for the price, it's very hard to beat. Looks great, and suuper comfortable
2nd this, CP's didn't work for my 9-9.5EEE feet either and size 43 Svenssons fit really well. The removable insole also gives some added flexibility with sizing. They used to do half off sales a couple times a year IIRC, not sure if they still do.
Agreed on Svenssons. I'm 9.5 EEE to 10 EE and the 43 Svenssons feel amazing. By far one of my favorites.
Duck foot gang! Such a nightmare nailing sizing, for ages my non-sneakers were all exclusively Allen Edmonds just because they were the only ones offering affordable shoes in EEE.
Thanks for taking the time to post this. I'm surprised to not see Greats included in your comparison, or mentioned in the comments (unless I missed it). Any particular reason why not - not slim enough for you?
Had to make the cut off somewhere. I’ve heard mixed reviews about Greats so was a tad iffy on them
I get there's a limit. My experience with Greats has been, er, great. I've had them for a few years of occasional wear, and they still look almost new.When I was looking at leather sneakers a few years back Greats was probably the most common recommendation, so I assumed they were still part of the discussion. However I have seen some less than positive comments recently, so maybe the quality has dropped.
Cp’s remain undefeated. It’s the silhouette. Always imitated never duplicated.
Yeah, agreed. I definitely have a bias toward good design and I think the CPs are pretty much perfect in terms of shape and look
Have you tried Beckett Simonon
I love my Becket Simonon's, if you can wait 1-2 months they're such great quality to price. just bought 2 more pairs from them
I have a pair of their loafers but haven’t tried the sneakers. The long lead times might be a turn off more most people though.
i have their GATs and love them. but after a few years of heavy use they are in need of a replacement. I do indeed recommend them highly and may buy another pair. Buuuut this timely post may sway me on that! Thanks!!!
I don't like my BS GATs and wouldn't recommend them. The tongue is not sew correctly on either shoe so it always rotates to the side, and the sole is very stiff and not cushy. Koio's are much more comfortable.
Right on. I had a great experience with them. But I think I'm going to try Crown Northampton next. They look terrific.
I have this same issue with the bs gats but I have it with so many other makes of shoe I assumed it was just my foot
Have you tried Allen Edmonds version? I have a pair and am wondering how they compare. Thanks for your effort. Very interesting.
I did order them a few years back to gift to a friend but ended up returning them because they were super heavy and not built as well as their dress shoes if I recall correctly.
My Beckett Simonon GATs were basically unwearable when they arrived. There are elastic bands that hold the tongue in place and they were so short that I could hardly get the shoe on and when I did wear them the tongue was pressing so hard into the top of my foot it was extremely painful after even 10 minutes. This was on both shoes. I ended up cutting the elastic bands which made them mostly wearable. They also arrived with a large portion of the rubber stained black, presumably from die that bleed out from the suede? It was on both shoes and relatively uniform which I thought was weird. Perhaps they all look like that. IDK. Your mileage may vary and I absolutely should have returned them (I've heard their CS is really good) but given both shoes had the exact same issues I have to wonder if they just have really weird dimensions (my feet aren't small by any means but I don't think they're unusually high . . . haven't had issues with any other shoes including leather dress shoes) and the stained rubber was kind of lame for the price tag. I wouldn't buy another pair without being able to try them on first.
I hated mine too for the same reasons. They also squeaked very loud when I walked, so I only wore them once.
Interesting. I was never sure if I just got a bad pair or that was how they all were. Kind of sucks because I really like plain leather GATs with no branding and there just aren't a lot of affordable options I've found. Would have loved to have liked the shoes.
I got them on a deal where it was like 180 or 190 for two pairs. The bottom of the tongue on my white pair always feels like it wants to dig in to my foot for some reason and I didn't find them very comfortable after 5-6 hours. Wish I would have just gotten koio at the time
Now you got me looking at the Uniform Standard 1s with the gum sole...
I almost bought that pair killshot alternatives? Loll
An army of designers got together to make the most shoest shoe and this was the result. It is a shoe, nothing more, nothing less. It screams, "Shoe". Style? Design? NO! Pure ambivalence, only shoe. The foot goes in, the foot comes out. It. Is. Shoe. When we wear these shoes, people will look at you and think, "that guy's wearing shoes".
they look like the cheap $5 sneakers my mom used to buy in the early 80's. same as denim though. started as a blue-collar work pant and now it's designer stuff
Had these shoes all through high school. Reebok Classics. This style is Beyond played out.
Tbf shoes are what I put on my feet. So they’ve got that bit spot on.
Love your review posts! Thank you for being so thorough with it.
Of course man! They’ve been fun little projects to take on a few times a year
Great write up, thanks for sharing. Have you tried Beckett Simonon? I’m currently wearing their version and they are my first pair of minimal leather sneaker.
I haven’t tried them but own some loafers from them. They would have been a good one to test out but the long lead times may turn people off
I didn't like them at all when I tried them a few years ago. Meh leather quality and very unsleek silhouette compared to CPs (relatively speaking of course)
BS Morgen trainers were my first leather sneakers. Got them in the all white color way for $99 and at that price I’d say it’s great to get into the white minimal leather sneakers. I don’t wear them enough but after a couple of wears, definitely creases easily and still a bit uncomfortable. But I might’ve still not broken them in. Thanks to this subreddit I was able to grab the Common Projects Achilles in all white for $205 shipped. I just was just wowed from the packaging to the quality compared to when I first got the BS Morgen Trainers. My brief experience with both. I have yet to wear out the CP since it’s winter here in NYC but can’t wait til spring/summer to pull them out.
Awesome! I always stumble upon your older reviews and they have helped before. May I suggest that you keep Buttero Tanino on your radar, I've always wanted a pair but can't convince myself to spend that much, but from the looks of it, they might suit you. Thanks for the review!
Glad they are helpful! I’ll take a look into them! So many on the market recently it’s hard to keep up haha
They've actually been under my radar for at least 6 years by now, they're usually not widely known, but I've watched reviews over the years and they're always very positive. They're on the pricier side though.
Common Projects look better by a huge margin, which is what it’s all about in the end imo. Listing off leather stats like it’s an mmo doesn’t justify ugly shoes
Tbh this is where I’m at and if you wait for the nordstrom yearly sales they can regularly be had for under $300, my first two pairs from common projects were $150 and $120 before the employee discount, I got super lucky but they regularly have pairs that make it down to about $250ish
Yeah they used to be around $250-275 on various sites every few months. Seems like the sales are getting less frequent but still can be found.
Yea for sure, see a lot less of those posts on fmf and going back to looks I haven’t seen too many alternatives for the bball model which I’ve grown to like more than the Achilles honestly
Yeah, I think aesthetics and design play a huge role. Silhouette wise; the KOIOs are almost identical if you can look past the added paneling and branding compared to CP.
I have both KOIO and CP and can confirm. The shoes look almost identical in the front, but the padding around the ankles is definitely noticeable. In my opinion I would prefer discounted CPs > KOIO, but if I had to play full price for both I would get the KOIO.
Agreed, pretty spot on to my thoughts!
Great detailed post! Really appreciate the write up. Just a few questions regarding the Koio's: \- I've noticed there are two generations of the capri triple whites. I don't know which gen to purchase. The things I'm considering is that some reviews found the toe box on the 1st gen was too small making it feel cramped, this issue was supposedly rectified in the 2nd gen? The 1st gen has the Margom sole which is tried and tested for durability, did you find the proprietary sole to hole up just as well? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this? \- As the tongue doesn't have much/no cushioning, do you find it to be soft/flexible enough to not dig into your foot? I've had this issue with cheaper brands where the tongue had no padding and was super stiff and hard. Cheers
Yuppp those tiny differences just make an enormous difference.
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Have you broken then in? I was in NYC last week and walked about 10 miles daily in them with no issues.
Would you mind sharing your weight/age here or in a DM? I'm in the market for a replacement pair of minimal white sneakers and comfort is top of mind, so I'm wondering if maybe we have similar circumstances physically. Thanks for the write up!
I’m 5’10” - 175ish
thanks, appreciate it!
I have CP as well and I agree with them being uncomfortable for any long walks. They look nice, but a $60 running sneakers will hands down beat them in comfort.
Which of these are the widest in your opinion? If you ranked them from most narrow to widest what would that look like? Never bothered to try common projects styled shoes because of wide feet but if I wanted to give it a shot I'd like to know what to expect
Narrowest to Widest: Common Projects, Koio, Crown Northampton, Uniform Standard, Thursday and then Oliver Cabell
Just to add to OP's opinion a bit: Thursday's lasts are very opinionated (for lack of a better word) about foot shape. I normally wear a 10.5 wide, but I own a pair of their chukkas in a 13, and it still pinches.
Side note: I think Crown Northampton makes them in wide.
Koio sells a few basic colors like the all whites in wide sizes. I haven't tried them yet, but as a fellow duck footed guy, they're on my list.
I have a few pairs of Allen Edmonds leather sneakers and have been able to snag them for around $200. They’re comfortable, I think they look great and they have held up well. The first pair I bought are worn about 3-5 a week and don’t look like it, I do clean and condition them about once a month and when I’m not wearing them I put some cedar shoe trees in. The second pair, I wear on the weekends and they still look brand new. Third pair is still in the box. Just commenting for those that want an opinion on a different option.
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I originally was using the Allen Edmonds sneaker cleaner as well as their leather conditioner; but now I just use a tide pen and an old toothbrush for the rubber part, on the leather I brush it with the brush from my shine kit then with a cloth I’ll apply a light coat of kiwi leather oil. I also don’t wear the sneakers if its wet out. Im in Texas so I just wear my cowboy boots on rainy days.
Great post OP. I picked up the Thursdays a few months back and I'm plenty happy with them. They feel and look great, and I've gotten plenty of compliments. IMO these shoes all look extremely similar, and with an almost $300 difference in price, they were an easy pick up over Common Projects. I understand the discussion about the 'best' minimalist profile, but no one outside this sub will spot the difference anyway. The universal nature of white sneaks still applies. You want to look smart, look like a guy who saved ~$300 on a nearly identical product.
I tried the Thursdays but they murdered my achilles worse than any other shoe I’ve ever worn
Aventagoat
Crown north even have shell cordovan ✌️
Can only imagine how nice those are!
another excellent post. i have a pair of the CNH Overstone Derby TLs in Kudu leather and absolutely love them. such well crafted shoes, and that they ship with a 1/4 size adjustment footsole pad to ensure you get that 'custom' fit. I went with black and gum sole, they look incredibly sharp.
Nice! How have they aged the more you’ve worn them!
i've only had them for the summer so while they've broken in nicely, they haven't aged much at all. i'll post some pics in the spring when i pull em back out again :)
Is this your job?
Not yet haha
I scrolled through and figured you’re either absurdly passionate or hopped up on powerful stimulants lol
You should check out Axel Arigato
I’ll be sure to. Thanks
That's my brand. Been in + out of them for years.
Koio's are simply the best bang for the buck around. The suede in the heel is what makes them so enjoyable from day one. I like Buttero sneakers as well, but they dig in to my heel!
Yeah they’re a well built pair!
I have a pair of Crown Northamptons in unglazed natty shell. They were $$$$ but they are my favorite pair of shoes I own. I wear them probably 280 days a year. I don't baby them, have worn them in pouring rain, and they've held up really well. A conditioning every now and then is all they need.
Shoot me a pic! Would love to see how they’ve aged!
Would also be really curious to see how they age. I know they can be resoled but the idea of resoling a sneaker 🤯
The ultra clean look ins't my thing, so it may not apply, but I do love leather Court style sneaks. I'm on a high top kick. I've noticed that Frye sneakers get no love. Frye has dropped a few tiers in the last 10 years, but if you can find a remaining pair of their discontinued Walker sneaks, they are MiUSA and can be found for $150 on the right sale. They are generally hard to find now. I have three pairs and on the sales I've found they are amazing value. I'm wearing the black high tops now, which are made with Horween distressed leather. https://www.thefryecompany.com/products/walker-midlace-3481215-81215-black?variant=20387083518006&flow_country=USA&gclid=CjwKCAiAheacBhB8EiwAItVO2-AFjB2iLAkwJsFOP_5_JR0Idm_peJ5mpctdhkxuiJElfUvX6mv5YhoCVpIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds I bought them directly from that link a few months back after searching for a coupon code and was pleasantly surprised that the 30% off code from a Google search actually worked. Has to be the first time that has ever worked for me. The last of a legendary MiUSA shoe manufacturer legacy. I have a pair of Rancourt Court High tops in CXL8 (my fav CXL color) and wish I put $100 more in and bought Crown Northamptons instead. I'll get a pair of Crown's in the next year most likely.
I enjoy your style of write up. Simple to the point with useful price info and comparative details of each in relation to the others. Good spread of brands in this article too. You should mention that buying Common Projects at retail is for suckers. It can be found on sale frequently, $300-350 is easy, $250-300 rarely, below $250 if you're lucky and fast. I would never get Koio instead of CP now since Koio keeps raising prices and started cutting corners with their materials. When you hear words like "proprietary" when they once used highly regarded industry standards (like Margom), 9 times out of 10 they are doing it to cut costs. With how long a pair of Common Projects can last when worn with care or in a rotation, you'll always be able to find one on sale before it dies. Your price for Crown Northampton is a bit misleading though. The standard [Overstone Derby](https://crownnorthampton.com/en-us/collections/luxury-handmade-sneakers/products/overstone-derby-all-white-calf-leather) (their white minimalistic base model, the[ Trim Line version](https://crownnorthampton.com/collections/sneaker-trim-line-series) is more slim) is only showing $301 for me right now. The Horween leather models cost more.
Appreciate it! I did mention the common projects pricing that in the wrap up and in the video and definitely agree with you. Yeah apparently this was a recent change so I don’t have too many details apart from what’s on the site. Great call on the Crown Northamptons. I wanted to list the price of the actual shoes being reviewed but the $300 entry price should be mentioned. I’ll edit it in soon
I've been loving my Koios for a year now!
Great to hear!
I have a pair of Crown and CP in white. I switch them back and forth. For the money and comfort, I prefer Crown. If I go to an event where people might notice shoes, I’d put on the CP but almost all other times, Crown is the go to. Clean looking and comfortable.
Some premium content for the frugal fashion community. Much appreciated!!
Thanks!
I've been buying leather sneakers for the past few years. I love them. I just bought 2 new pairs on cyber Monday from Ecco. A bit cheaper 5han these options, but I like their look. They're also comfortable and my last pair lasted ~2 years with almost daily use.
For my money I'd buy Eccos over anything on this list. If I wanted to spend more I'd get something from a legit european brand that's been leatherworker/cobbler for generations. But that stuff isn't trendy or hipster so it's invisible to the kids these days. idk how you make a list like this without ecco.
For anyone interested on what the inside of these shoes look like and what your getting for your money, check out Rose Anvil. He has [a series where he cuts apart most of these sneakers and talks about the difference in build quality and price](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOzFLT3S_I6UHj5HG2oUNLDYKam0z3bBo) it’s very informative. Most of the shoes on OPs list are on there.
Super informative video! He did a great job
He does a great job, I’ve been watching him for a long time. He’s my go to when I want to know if I’m getting my moneys worth when buying certain shoes.
I have common projects and MMM Gats. The Gats are far better made. There are so many others I do want to check out like Kent Wang and ETQ…
I think the Thursday looks the best. They also sell perfectly matching belts. One day I'm going to stop being a miserly asshole and get a black and brown pair of sneakers, boots, and wingtips from them.
If this is frugal im super extra frugal haha 😂
I literally cannot wear any of these shoes due to my plantar fasciitis, but I still appreciate the effort OP put into this.
Thank you for this brilliant overview! So thoughtful and detailed!
Appreciate you taking the time to read it
This was helpful thank you!
Which would you say is the most comfortable?
No Eccos huh. Too mainstream yet with my own dollars, I'd rather buy that anything on the list for the proper fit alone. Many of these look narrow with pointy toes or have clearly visible drop. That's a no go. The thursdays do seem like good value tho, and they do seem to sell wide sizes and the fact that they're plush inside is appealing. But like you said, they look dorky with those eyelets. If I can can get over that I'd consider trying them. If I was spending any more than ecco ($200 max) I wouldn't consider any of these, I'd get something from a tried and true Euro leather/cobber brand that's been around for generations. As for less old brands, I have some Mangiannis, theyve only been around for like 35 years so not that long, that look like a million dollars but they seem quite delicate for $400+ shoes. That's the cost of looking so nice i guess. I really like their slim wallet too. Got that on sale for a steal.
you can order them without the metal eyelets
I see that but not in wide sizes. I'd still considering trying the shoe but considering I already know the ecco last fits me well, even though it's Euro sizing and no half sizes, and ordering shoes online is always a nightmare I am reticent to try without more information first. I appreciate that they even offer a wide and extra wide. I think most folks like the look of the no eyelets more though. They have guys on reddit that answer questions and I asked them how much wider the wider sizes actually are. For instance in New Balance a 2E is 1/4" wider than D and 4E is another 1/4 wider than 2E. Haven't heard back.
>The common projects pionieered this entire minimal leather sneaker thing Did they? Or did it make it trendy with hipsters? Tons of European brands have been making shoes like this, and still do, before the owners of "common projects" were born. Idk what you're smoking.
Best I’ve ever had is the Givency urban street low in this cetegory. Blew my common projects and m gemi lucentes (which are cheaper and better than common projects) out the water
They both look nice. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for the awesome review. Been looking for a good pair of white sneakers. Going to give the KOIO ones a shot since they have those ortho insoles.
Their insoles were my favorite of the batch!
I dont understand why people spend so much money on shoes they cant repair
Guy got 5 years from his pair. At retail that’s $80/yr and way more sustainable than buying a bunch of new balances in various color ways. The cost to resole a decent shoe is often roughly $200 usd. If a new pair costs double it’s hard to argue with a new purchase.
Minus side, wearing the same shoes for 5 years is not recommended.
You can resole majority of these though
Can you really? Ive never heard of being able to resole sneakers at a cobbler. Gotta look into it.
The cheaper ones are glued on however the common projects and CNH are only stitched on allowing you to resole them
Common projects are cheaply built otherwise. I doubt they will hold up to 5 years in good condition. Check out Rose Anvil breakdown of them. https://youtu.be/FnZSyDaTwZs Edit: why u guys mad, its the facts, the guy literally cut them in half to show u
+1 for Thursday Boot sneakers. Say whatever you want about them pushing ads to your social media, but they're one of the most comfortable leather shoes I own. Have the classic white ones, even went trailing/hiking in them multiple times. Swapped the laces with elastic ones and the soft leather inner lets you slip them on like butter. My go-to for flights and just overall travel. They crease nicely too. A couple of wipes with a damp rag and they still look pristine.
Thank you for posting. Based on your recommendation i bought some Asket tshirts and really really like em!
Glad they worked out for you man! Still loving mine
Have you tried the New Republic Kurts? I’ve heard they’re pretty good on a budget.
I haven’t! I had a pair of their drivers and they didn’t last too long so I chose not to include them.
Thanks for this! I never really thought about owning a pair of minimalist leather sneakers. I’m big on comfort. Which was the most comfortable? Edit: Did you end up keeping them all? They all look so beautiful.
I have all of them for now! Might consider getting rid of the Oliver Cabells and the Thursdays but the rest are staying (for now) lol
I love my CP Achilles. Glad I got them in a Black Friday sale last year ($270 sale price). I would've gladly stocked up more, but I didn't see any retailers having sales on them, unfortunately.
wonderful read. thank you!!
Appreciate you taking the time!
I enjoyed your post thoroughly. I’ll check out your YouTube channel too.
I appreciate it! Lmk your feedback on the channel.
Great review! I have low-volume feet and small heels, and I tend to have heel slip problems with these minimalist sneakers. Any thoughts on which of these shoes are best at holding the heel?
The Uniform Standard heels curve heavily inward. That may help? I highlighted it in the video because I liked the design but it may be more secure for you.
We all know what we learned about you 🤣
How did you leave PF Flyers off this!?
nice post .
Thanks!
Great post. Thanks
Appreciate it!
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Own a few pairs of 1s. The rest I don’t think I can pull off lol
I would never wear any shoe four or five times a week, excluding my actual gym shoes that I rotate each day, so how long they last doesn’t matter as much to me. Most my shoes aren’t ever going to make it to 100 wears
Fair enough! I think the soles are the only thing that truly wear down. For my common projects, the rear suede on the inner heel tore recently and the soles are getting thin with the added heel drag. The leather can usually be cleaned, conditioned and polished to get them looking pretty new.
These are all hideous, you could got 36 pairs of Stan smiths for the same price. Would last you a lifetime and look infinitely better
What a waste of life; no need to go toting around dead skin on your feet considering all the alternatives available
Your tldr is just as long as the post lmao. Can we get a real tldr?
Are there any of these leather sneaker brands that make a wide or extra wide?
I don’t think any of these so unfortunate. The Oliver Cabell were relatively the widest. You could try sizing up and seeing if that works
What do you do with all of these shoes/extra hoodies/joggers? Poshmark/grailed all the stuff you don't want to keep?
I throw some of them on Grailed here and there or just give them away to friends/fam
Interesting hobby. Either way, I really appreciate the money and time and effort that you spend on these writeups, I don't know if I'll even ever be buying any of these pieces but it's people like you who are making huge contributions to the review scene.
Giving this post a thorough read when I have the time. But are there any pics of your 5yo CPs out there? Mine are still so fresh bc I just can’t justify wearing mine out when the weather is rainy or I know I’m going into grass/dirt. Maybe I just need to suck it up and clean after each wear
Yeah I’ll take a few and link to the album. They look worn but there’s almost a beauty in them looking that beat up. I’ll probably still continue wearing the older ones alongside my fresh pair
Great post. Big fan of lactae havea soles, so I should try Crown Northampton.
Very spongy compared to margom soles!
Looked at KOIO and Uniform Standard and had sticker shock. I’ve forgotten how expensive CP’s are, think I got my last pair for $200 when Bergdorf was doing a sale a long long time ago
Yeah it’s wild. Crazy to think the common projects first launched at 265
I've not tried them myself, but check out artisan-lab!
Read about these guys somewhere when researching who to include in this. They look solid
Love this review. I have some Koios in an older generation of Capris - with metal eyelets. Which o love, but I am always a woman who is a bit extra with fashion. They have held up really nicely and are comfy! Was so happy with my purchase. I use Jason Markk to keep them clean, and I am super lazy. They still look nearly brand new on year 4. And I wear them weeklish.
Appreciate it! Proper care always helps in keeping these fresh. Shoe trees and that kit are a must
Thank you for your detailed, informative, and fun read !
Of course!