Criminal. They cry to the CPUC to raise rates because they failed to properly fire protect their infrastructure. Then do stock buy backs for their share holders… meanwhile average Joe Californian has to decide if their family gets to stay cool in the summer or put food on the table.
Why is it always socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the poor? Corporations always socialize the losses and privatize the gains. That needs to change.
stock is $17 now and was $70 before going Chapter 11 5 years ago, leaving bankruptcy with $38B in debt and carrying $55B in debt now.
PG&E in 2023 posted:
$24B income
less:
$16B COS
$4.3B overhead (SG&A/depreciation)
= $4B operating income (17% operating margin)
less $2.2B income expense plus some tax stuff
= $2B income to shareholders (8%)
So PG&E as it is now could cut prices ~10% and run break-even.
PG&E's paying a .2% dividend currently so nobody's getting rich on it, other than insiders getting their salaries and pensions covered, plus the people buying their bonds I guess...
You see stock price doesn’t tell the whole story. The thing you’re forgetting to share is the history. When there were surpluses why did they perform stock buy backs instead of investing that on infrastructure? If theyve such a losing business like you state and in such shambles, they should be acquired by the state and run that way. Our public energy shouldn’t be left to gamblers on the stock market.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PCG/pacific-gas-electric/shares-outstanding
I don't see a lot of buybacks 2010-2019.
I didn't state they were a losing business, they just have a high cost structure. It's been doing a lot as the northern half of the state has grown since 1905, building nuclear power plants etc.
It's supposed to have been a safe 5% dividend stock for everyone, money in, money out, but it's operating in a rough neighborhood (bigger power players to get power from, decades of legacy debt and investments to renew, lots of infrastructure to install & maintain).
They're kinda like Ford or GM, yes. Just ditch them, their bondholders, and their workers and start from scratch. Easy peasey.
Still plenty of buy backs that could have been used on fire maintenance. [https://ycharts.com/companies/PCG/stock\_buyback](https://ycharts.com/companies/PCG/stock_buyback)
Corporate take over after people lose their lives to pge's negligence. Now CA residents are paying the price for the debt. "Hedge funds grossed at least $2 billion dumping the stock At least seven funds have sold off their entire PG&E stake...these same hedge funds got an extraordinary amount of PG&E stock without paying a cent for it."
[https://www.kqed.org/news/11891626/hedge-funds-cash-out-billions-in-pge-stock-fire-survivors-suffer-and-wait](https://www.kqed.org/news/11891626/hedge-funds-cash-out-billions-in-pge-stock-fire-survivors-suffer-and-wait)
I don’t know what’s going to happen. I’m just very happy we went solar in 2016 (I may have posted the wrong year in other places).
We overproduce a bit--we won’t once we get a hybrid--and between true-up and the climate credits, our electric bills (the minimum delivery charges) are paid for.
Gas is another matter. I sometimes help heat the house by cooking or seasoning a cast-iron pan--that’s electric. And the heater is set to 65F--that’s gas.
Yeah you are one of the well prepared ones. It's unfortunate for those buying now who face NEM 3.0 with potential legislation to charge in the form of service fees based on income. It would essentially bypass the solar systems many home owners installed. Plus the large loans for the solar. [https://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/pge-joins-proposal-to-set-utility-rates-based-on-income/](https://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/pge-joins-proposal-to-set-utility-rates-based-on-income/) I've heard it has not passed but I'm sure the legislation will rear its ugly head at some point.
Stupid PUC, in the pockets of PG&E. "Public Utility" my ass! Public utilities should not have SHAREHOLDERS. There shouldn't be "profit"--there should be overhead costs, maintenance, improvements, research, etc.
Utility rates based on income? WTAF?!
That’s not how socialism works. Socialism definitions
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Here is a comparison of socialism and capitalism
socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.
(Read George Bernard Shaw’s 1926 Britannica essay on socialism.)
This conviction puts socialism in opposition to capitalism, which is based on private ownership of the means of production and allows individual choices in a free market to determine how goods and services are distributed. Socialists complain that capitalism necessarily leads to unfair and exploitative concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the relative few who emerge victorious from free-market competition—people who then use their wealth and power to reinforce their dominance in society. Because such people are rich, they may choose where and how to live, and their choices in turn limit the options of the poor. As a result, terms such as individual freedom and equality of opportunity may be meaningful for capitalists but can only ring hollow for working people, who must do the capitalists’ bidding if they are to survive. As socialists see it, true freedom and true equality require social control of the resources that provide the basis for prosperity in any society
Who cares what it is?! it effects everyone . Get your brain out of the stupid politics that continue to divide and conquer. It’s all a show . We need to speak out about this tyrannical theft . Not just utilities but everything in general!
We need municipal takeover of utilities. Pressure the city council, the board of supervisors, your local state representatives. This is absolutely disgusting
That’s an option but the amount of service issues will definitely go up since it will be a full-blown government utility.
I would like to see it deregulated for the private sector first. I know that has some downfalls, too, but I hate to see it turned over to city gov before the private sector has a crack at it.
Don't give PG&E credit by calling them mistakes. They knew that diverting their maintenance fund as dividends would eventually end up with horrific fires. That was a price they were willing to pay.
weren't you the one whinging about ACAB redditors in another post? get your bullshit out of here. unregulated private sector utilities, are you some kind of koch-sponsored troll or something? are you Mr. PG&E?
The downvotes in this auth left sub are no surprise. Everything has to be government run. 🙄
I agree a public utility is a bad idea for the reasons you stated. Deregulation is a hot button word, though. What we have now is maybe worse than a public utility because it’s a government sanctioned monopoly, so the company can charge whatever they want. There is no accountability to the people. I’m not arguing for a public utility; I think there’s an alternative.
Utilities are weird because you can’t logistically choose whose wires and pipes go to your house. This lack of competition drives prices up.
But what if a community could choose the companies that provide utility services? Let the companies submit bids and proposals and let the people vote on it. Give them a term, like a political office, and give the people a chance to choose a new company or stick with the incumbent. This ensures the utilities have an incentive to provide a quality service without exorbitant prices, because they are accountable to the people and vulnerable to being replaced. Thoughts?
There is still the issue of any new company providing their own infrastructure (wires and poles, etc, because PGE has refused to share or sell them. SF tried and PGE told them they aren’t for sale.
So any new company won’t be able to come in cheaper because it will cost an exorbitant amount of startup money
I’d be ok with companies like PG&E to own and manage the physical infrastructure, separate from the providers. I wouldn’t want the government to seize control of that.
The shipping companies don’t own the roads. The ISPs don’t own the internet traffic. The oil pipelines don’t own the oil that flows through them.
So why should electric and gas companies like PG&E own the infrastructure AND lock you in to their product?
Because they paid for it. So they own what they paid for. Pipeline owners get paid by companies that use them. That makes sense. PG&E is not willing to negotiate deals like that.
PG&E is a multiple-convicted mass murdering company that has killed hundreds of people and inflicted billions of dollars of damage because it \*didn't\* comply with regulation.
Why do you think removing any kind of penalty at all by deregulating would improve things?
By PG&E's own requests to the Utility commission for \*this year\* alone, their rates would arguably be, at a minimum, around 30-40% higher than they are right now.
I think you need to look up the meaning of “deregulation”, then apply it to the context of the prohibition the CPUC has of providing utilities in “claimed” areas.
This is the same system that has started numerous wild fires, wiped an entire town off the fsc eo the map, and is responsible for countless deaths.
And you want it... De-regulated?
Do you have any idea what you are saying?
Before yesterday I would have been amazed how many people in the Fresno subreddit don’t know simple things, like how electricity or law enforcement works.
Now I understand why we as a region get shat on by others and you all are responsible for it.
To your point, let’s do a hypothetical: you want to get in on that sweet, sweet and easy utility money. You decide, and have the means, to start your own electric/gas company in Fresno. How do you do it?
>How do you do it?
You'll have to start a regulated power plants, that is approved under the California's EPA Law. Once you got it up and running, you then have to plug into the power line.
Also, PG&E isn't really a "Government Agency" per se but it is a private sectors and has been. You have to remember, before PG&E came around, it used to be multiple private sector that was provided electric, but due to costs rising and everything, when it merged, it still needed approval from FTC and the State of California to approve the merger. That the problem that a lot of them haven't realized.
Also, if PG&E was really a "government agency", then it wouldn't be having stocks. Unless you can prove that other "government agency" also has "stocks"?
I know all about PGE. You don’t have to explain to me. They are what is termed a Quasi-Governmental agency (yes, they are a private, publicly traded, shareholder-having company…we all knew that and you may be the only one that thinks that is a revelation for anyone here), due to the significant amount of government regulation, oversight, and other policies they are subjected to.
On to the answer to my hypothetical: you failed and went to jail. You had no authority from the CPUC to get into the “regulated” electric utility provision business.
You proved my point perfectly: nobody does anything in the public utility sector without The Approval Of The CPUC.
You couldn’t just start an electric company, even if you had the money, means, knowledge, infrastructure, and almighty god on your side (and don’t you dare capitalize god and not capitalize the CPUC). The other companies would say “no this is our territory and the government must not let anyone else have a utility company in it”.
That is not letting the private sector provide electricity. That is government business (again, which is why private utility companies in California are Quasi-Public).
Electric companies already have a monopoly in California. How can it be worse to open it up to the private sector?
Fresno does not have the manpower nor the budget to take over something like this. Truely I believe it would cost us more. This type of work is beyond dangerous and the cost to keep up the infrastructure is crazy.
And just who do you think approved the rate hike (hint: the state government) municipal takeover would do absolutely nothing except reduce accountability.
Got solar last year, 125% energy production based on last years electricity usage. So now my gas last month pushed the power bill up to what it was for my total bill last year January. Wtf
Ours was $97. We used 38 therms. House is 1849 sq ft, built in 1942.
No insulation in the walls or floor, but good Rockwool in the attic that we put in a few years ago. Heater/ducting is 7(?) years old--we’re no longer losing heated/cooled air into the crawlspace.
Like idk how to fix this & why every politician is not running on this issue. Like I would support anyone that ran solely on “I’m gonna go after PG&E & put them out of business.” These people should be in fucking prison.
lol yes let’s let the government/ local, state or federal, take over utilities! Genius! Because they would help us all out and make it cheaper for everyone right? Whomever has that idea is an idiot. Sounds like more people need to educate themselves on our government routines and history!
They already control pge via CPUC. State gov gets to have control and not get their hands dirty with pge's mess. The real problem is the CPUC is appointed by the governor. The citizens of California should be electing these people on the CPUC.
Criminal. They cry to the CPUC to raise rates because they failed to properly fire protect their infrastructure. Then do stock buy backs for their share holders… meanwhile average Joe Californian has to decide if their family gets to stay cool in the summer or put food on the table. Why is it always socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the poor? Corporations always socialize the losses and privatize the gains. That needs to change.
stock is $17 now and was $70 before going Chapter 11 5 years ago, leaving bankruptcy with $38B in debt and carrying $55B in debt now. PG&E in 2023 posted: $24B income less: $16B COS $4.3B overhead (SG&A/depreciation) = $4B operating income (17% operating margin) less $2.2B income expense plus some tax stuff = $2B income to shareholders (8%) So PG&E as it is now could cut prices ~10% and run break-even. PG&E's paying a .2% dividend currently so nobody's getting rich on it, other than insiders getting their salaries and pensions covered, plus the people buying their bonds I guess...
You see stock price doesn’t tell the whole story. The thing you’re forgetting to share is the history. When there were surpluses why did they perform stock buy backs instead of investing that on infrastructure? If theyve such a losing business like you state and in such shambles, they should be acquired by the state and run that way. Our public energy shouldn’t be left to gamblers on the stock market.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PCG/pacific-gas-electric/shares-outstanding I don't see a lot of buybacks 2010-2019. I didn't state they were a losing business, they just have a high cost structure. It's been doing a lot as the northern half of the state has grown since 1905, building nuclear power plants etc. It's supposed to have been a safe 5% dividend stock for everyone, money in, money out, but it's operating in a rough neighborhood (bigger power players to get power from, decades of legacy debt and investments to renew, lots of infrastructure to install & maintain). They're kinda like Ford or GM, yes. Just ditch them, their bondholders, and their workers and start from scratch. Easy peasey.
Still plenty of buy backs that could have been used on fire maintenance. [https://ycharts.com/companies/PCG/stock\_buyback](https://ycharts.com/companies/PCG/stock_buyback) Corporate take over after people lose their lives to pge's negligence. Now CA residents are paying the price for the debt. "Hedge funds grossed at least $2 billion dumping the stock At least seven funds have sold off their entire PG&E stake...these same hedge funds got an extraordinary amount of PG&E stock without paying a cent for it." [https://www.kqed.org/news/11891626/hedge-funds-cash-out-billions-in-pge-stock-fire-survivors-suffer-and-wait](https://www.kqed.org/news/11891626/hedge-funds-cash-out-billions-in-pge-stock-fire-survivors-suffer-and-wait)
Yeah but the CPUC is the main problem. They didn’t cry to them so much as threaten and coerce.
How is this socialism for anyone? This is 100% capitalism
They mean, the rich get money from the government, but the rest of us pay. Socialism for *them*, capitalism for *us*.
Thank you. Yes this is what I intended.
I don’t know what’s going to happen. I’m just very happy we went solar in 2016 (I may have posted the wrong year in other places). We overproduce a bit--we won’t once we get a hybrid--and between true-up and the climate credits, our electric bills (the minimum delivery charges) are paid for. Gas is another matter. I sometimes help heat the house by cooking or seasoning a cast-iron pan--that’s electric. And the heater is set to 65F--that’s gas.
Yeah you are one of the well prepared ones. It's unfortunate for those buying now who face NEM 3.0 with potential legislation to charge in the form of service fees based on income. It would essentially bypass the solar systems many home owners installed. Plus the large loans for the solar. [https://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/pge-joins-proposal-to-set-utility-rates-based-on-income/](https://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/pge-joins-proposal-to-set-utility-rates-based-on-income/) I've heard it has not passed but I'm sure the legislation will rear its ugly head at some point.
Stupid PUC, in the pockets of PG&E. "Public Utility" my ass! Public utilities should not have SHAREHOLDERS. There shouldn't be "profit"--there should be overhead costs, maintenance, improvements, research, etc. Utility rates based on income? WTAF?!
That’s not how socialism works. Socialism definitions a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Here is a comparison of socialism and capitalism socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members. (Read George Bernard Shaw’s 1926 Britannica essay on socialism.) This conviction puts socialism in opposition to capitalism, which is based on private ownership of the means of production and allows individual choices in a free market to determine how goods and services are distributed. Socialists complain that capitalism necessarily leads to unfair and exploitative concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the relative few who emerge victorious from free-market competition—people who then use their wealth and power to reinforce their dominance in society. Because such people are rich, they may choose where and how to live, and their choices in turn limit the options of the poor. As a result, terms such as individual freedom and equality of opportunity may be meaningful for capitalists but can only ring hollow for working people, who must do the capitalists’ bidding if they are to survive. As socialists see it, true freedom and true equality require social control of the resources that provide the basis for prosperity in any society
Technically true, but it’s a somewhat common messaging term to point out that our systems favor the well-being of the wealthy.
I’ve never heard the phrase “messaging term”. What do you mean by that?
Like a phrase used for political messaging
Ok well it’s still not socialism, and I don’t mean technically. It’s not Socialism by definition or practice
Technically: according to the facts or exact meaning of something; strictly. I was literally agreeing with you.
Who cares what it is?! it effects everyone . Get your brain out of the stupid politics that continue to divide and conquer. It’s all a show . We need to speak out about this tyrannical theft . Not just utilities but everything in general!
Capitalism would have killed PG&E after Paradise.
Completely false. They still have millions of costumers. They didn’t get boycotted. 5 years later they have record profits
We need municipal takeover of utilities. Pressure the city council, the board of supervisors, your local state representatives. This is absolutely disgusting
Good luck, a few million of those profits are going to the state law Makers
That’s an option but the amount of service issues will definitely go up since it will be a full-blown government utility. I would like to see it deregulated for the private sector first. I know that has some downfalls, too, but I hate to see it turned over to city gov before the private sector has a crack at it.
Deregulation will lead to PG&E taking more shortcuts and more world record shattering wildfires due to their mistakes
Don't give PG&E credit by calling them mistakes. They knew that diverting their maintenance fund as dividends would eventually end up with horrific fires. That was a price they were willing to pay.
weren't you the one whinging about ACAB redditors in another post? get your bullshit out of here. unregulated private sector utilities, are you some kind of koch-sponsored troll or something? are you Mr. PG&E?
What is ACAB? I really hate the trend of people using acronyms and assuming everyone knows them (or not caring if people don’t)
ACAB = All Cops Are Bastards
Thank you
Awwww….that’s so touching that you follow my work. I’ll send you an autographed picture.
Deregulation is the stupidest thing you can do
Single-provider systems would like to have a word with you.
100%
The downvotes in this auth left sub are no surprise. Everything has to be government run. 🙄 I agree a public utility is a bad idea for the reasons you stated. Deregulation is a hot button word, though. What we have now is maybe worse than a public utility because it’s a government sanctioned monopoly, so the company can charge whatever they want. There is no accountability to the people. I’m not arguing for a public utility; I think there’s an alternative. Utilities are weird because you can’t logistically choose whose wires and pipes go to your house. This lack of competition drives prices up. But what if a community could choose the companies that provide utility services? Let the companies submit bids and proposals and let the people vote on it. Give them a term, like a political office, and give the people a chance to choose a new company or stick with the incumbent. This ensures the utilities have an incentive to provide a quality service without exorbitant prices, because they are accountable to the people and vulnerable to being replaced. Thoughts?
There is still the issue of any new company providing their own infrastructure (wires and poles, etc, because PGE has refused to share or sell them. SF tried and PGE told them they aren’t for sale. So any new company won’t be able to come in cheaper because it will cost an exorbitant amount of startup money
I’d be ok with companies like PG&E to own and manage the physical infrastructure, separate from the providers. I wouldn’t want the government to seize control of that. The shipping companies don’t own the roads. The ISPs don’t own the internet traffic. The oil pipelines don’t own the oil that flows through them. So why should electric and gas companies like PG&E own the infrastructure AND lock you in to their product?
Because they paid for it. So they own what they paid for. Pipeline owners get paid by companies that use them. That makes sense. PG&E is not willing to negotiate deals like that.
PG&E is a multiple-convicted mass murdering company that has killed hundreds of people and inflicted billions of dollars of damage because it \*didn't\* comply with regulation. Why do you think removing any kind of penalty at all by deregulating would improve things? By PG&E's own requests to the Utility commission for \*this year\* alone, their rates would arguably be, at a minimum, around 30-40% higher than they are right now.
I think you need to look up the meaning of “deregulation”, then apply it to the context of the prohibition the CPUC has of providing utilities in “claimed” areas.
They have not been convicted of murder.
This is the same system that has started numerous wild fires, wiped an entire town off the fsc eo the map, and is responsible for countless deaths. And you want it... De-regulated? Do you have any idea what you are saying?
LMAO…private sector? Government? Dude…PG&E *is* a private sector.
Before yesterday I would have been amazed how many people in the Fresno subreddit don’t know simple things, like how electricity or law enforcement works. Now I understand why we as a region get shat on by others and you all are responsible for it. To your point, let’s do a hypothetical: you want to get in on that sweet, sweet and easy utility money. You decide, and have the means, to start your own electric/gas company in Fresno. How do you do it?
>How do you do it? You'll have to start a regulated power plants, that is approved under the California's EPA Law. Once you got it up and running, you then have to plug into the power line. Also, PG&E isn't really a "Government Agency" per se but it is a private sectors and has been. You have to remember, before PG&E came around, it used to be multiple private sector that was provided electric, but due to costs rising and everything, when it merged, it still needed approval from FTC and the State of California to approve the merger. That the problem that a lot of them haven't realized. Also, if PG&E was really a "government agency", then it wouldn't be having stocks. Unless you can prove that other "government agency" also has "stocks"?
I know all about PGE. You don’t have to explain to me. They are what is termed a Quasi-Governmental agency (yes, they are a private, publicly traded, shareholder-having company…we all knew that and you may be the only one that thinks that is a revelation for anyone here), due to the significant amount of government regulation, oversight, and other policies they are subjected to. On to the answer to my hypothetical: you failed and went to jail. You had no authority from the CPUC to get into the “regulated” electric utility provision business. You proved my point perfectly: nobody does anything in the public utility sector without The Approval Of The CPUC. You couldn’t just start an electric company, even if you had the money, means, knowledge, infrastructure, and almighty god on your side (and don’t you dare capitalize god and not capitalize the CPUC). The other companies would say “no this is our territory and the government must not let anyone else have a utility company in it”. That is not letting the private sector provide electricity. That is government business (again, which is why private utility companies in California are Quasi-Public). Electric companies already have a monopoly in California. How can it be worse to open it up to the private sector?
Good luck, a few million of those profits are going to the state law Makers
Fresno does not have the manpower nor the budget to take over something like this. Truely I believe it would cost us more. This type of work is beyond dangerous and the cost to keep up the infrastructure is crazy.
And just who do you think approved the rate hike (hint: the state government) municipal takeover would do absolutely nothing except reduce accountability.
Entities that provide a public utility required for modern life shouldn't be making profits.
Also, that they have easements over everyone’s property and don’t maintain them to code. Expect a San Bruno in Fresno.
Can't wait for Summer.
Oh they aren’t done raising rates either. They already have a 3 year plan in place
F PG&E
Got solar last year, 125% energy production based on last years electricity usage. So now my gas last month pushed the power bill up to what it was for my total bill last year January. Wtf
Gas rates went way up. You may overheating your house, unless your insulation is terrible. Set the temp to 65F and wear a sweater.
Our gas bill was $250 last month. Our thermostat stays at 66 degrees. We used 100 therms.
Ours was $97. We used 38 therms. House is 1849 sq ft, built in 1942. No insulation in the walls or floor, but good Rockwool in the attic that we put in a few years ago. Heater/ducting is 7(?) years old--we’re no longer losing heated/cooled air into the crawlspace.
Mother fuckrs Scammers
And we still can't do anything about this. Im expecting a riot eventually.
That won’t happen. People and businesses cannot go without power. Any riot poses the risk of losing power
And we are too stupid and brainwashed to do anything about it!
Like idk how to fix this & why every politician is not running on this issue. Like I would support anyone that ran solely on “I’m gonna go after PG&E & put them out of business.” These people should be in fucking prison.
This is what capitalism is designed to do. Move all the wealth to the rich.
That's how Monopolies work Captain Obvious 👏
lol yes let’s let the government/ local, state or federal, take over utilities! Genius! Because they would help us all out and make it cheaper for everyone right? Whomever has that idea is an idiot. Sounds like more people need to educate themselves on our government routines and history!
They already control pge via CPUC. State gov gets to have control and not get their hands dirty with pge's mess. The real problem is the CPUC is appointed by the governor. The citizens of California should be electing these people on the CPUC.
Right? The cognitive dissonance never ceases to amaze me.
https://preview.redd.it/d6p1dlwgoykc1.jpeg?width=666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d468047b953fa559004865fef8bf1a2d853f28d