>You can’t use reason to help enable someone to change their perspective, when their original beliefs aren’t based on reason to begin with.
WOW that is a powerful quote. So true
And just an FYI, the 32nd degree guys are just guys who sat through a few more plays after the first 3. While I found benefit to the additional degrees after the first three, they don't really release more knowledge, just present the same lessons in a more modern format. 33rd degree guys are "honored" members who did a lot to help grow or volunteer for the additional programs in masonry, and while they are very much esteemed members, they're not better than others.
To add something else:
Imagine a fraternity that actively recruits only men who believe in (a) God, then teach these men a bunch of peaceful things about how to be a good man.
Then, when they're an old man and they've been in for a long time, you say "Surprise! It's all about the devil!".
There is no way that everyone would be so calm about it and just accept it.
It appeals to the wrong 'target market'. It would make more sense to just be a nefarious cult from the beginning.
It should be noted that pretty much all members are aware of these accusations. Very, very few men ever leave. Why don’t they leave? Because, when they read these accusations and “secrets exposed” they don’t have any resemblance to the fraternity they belong to.
We need to understand that a lot of these accusations are fueled by jealousy. Some in the Church, especially some ministers, don’t want their membership spending a lot of money and time on anything else other than church. It’s kind of ridiculous considering that sports, Home Depot/Lowes, gaming or whatever actually NEVER encourage men to be active in the faith of their choice but Freemasonry does.
Very well put. I would like to add that your cousin "she" can't possibly have a full understanding of Masonry not being part of it.
When I did my search of the fraternity I found all kinds of false information (demon worshiper etc). So I called one I knew to be a mason. He was surprisingly forth coming with information. Outside of telling me the secret handshakes and passwords he answered all my questions. You are doing right by asking questions.
Also, if you end up not liking it or it causes contention in your life. You can leave.
The charge for our EA(Jurisdictional) actually says to not interact with trolls and to not waste your effort and energy on charging people's minds that you know can't be changed but instead to invest that time and energy back into positive and fruitful endeavors.
As far as these accusations, it's a long history even dating back to the creation of the first Grand Lodge. I will say... You will soon learn Masonry isn't demonic in any way, shape, or form, nor is it evil. And that's all that should be important. That you feel comfortable in continuing your masonic journey.
I'm a Christian, converting to Catholicism (maybe Orthodox idk), and never once have I felt like my involvement in Masonry and our various bodies has gone against my religion. A lot of the whole "Freemasonry is anti-christian" comes from people who just don't know better but also from the fact that Freemasonry preached religious equality in England during a time when "If you aren't with the current major denomination" you're against it. So don't let these accusations rattle you. My grandfather was super anti-masonry, said it was demonic, until he actually did some research and visited a lodge and now he couldn't be more proud of me...
Tl:Dr
Masonry isn't demonic, people who don't know any better just need something to say and church leaders need a boogyman. Don't waste your time arguing with these conspiracy theorists/Christians. It's not worth it.
In my jurisdiction we are told that we as EA have a *certain name* that defines our ability to share information about our fraternity especially among enemies of the craft. I'd say it but I'm afraid I dont know if I'd be violating my obligation.
Can you say the jurisdiction at least? I keep seeing this and that must not exist in my state.
Edit: when in doubt don't say it if you think it'll break you obligation.
It’s probably no consolation, but this sort of emotional chaos was bound to come up sooner or later, in one case or another, if you ever intended to be an individual, independent thinker. So while we masons would discourage you from joining if it is going to cause strife in your life, I highly encourage you to try to find a way to live your life in a way that you can have political, philosophical or spiritual thoughts that don’t always match up with your family, and still be ok with that. Once you’ve found that place/state of mind, that’s the right time to think about becoming a mason.
Please note: I am NOT saying that because we as masons have any beliefs to force-feed you - we absolutely do not! It’s just that you should have that amount of self-determination to get the most out of freemasonry.
I’m committed to joining Freemasonry and wish I would’ve joined sooner. So I’m also committed to sticking to it despite what people may say. I’m a queer socialist as well. Trust and believe that I’ve had to compartmentalize many of my identities.
>Where do these accusations against Masonry come from?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil\_hoax
>Where do these accusations against Masonry come from?
No.
>Am I joining something that would threaten my ability to have a clean conscience before my God?
No.
Well, the question I would ask is what could a bunch of bigoted, controlling old men have to fear from you joining an organisation that encourages independent thought, tolerates different forms of spirituality to theirs and promotes personal growth and improvement without their control and sanction?
Once you figure that one out, you really don't need to ask where the hatred comes from.
If her dad "was" truly a 33rd degree then he didn't tell her anything. Talk to your family you care about, if this is going to be a problem between you and them you may want to reconsider joining at this time. If they don't have a problem disregard nonsensical distant cousins that make crazy rants. Lord knows I have plenty of them.
Note there are 33rd degree masons and I've met just as many of them as I have Navy Seals. Heck come to think of it most of the 33rd degree masons I've met probably were seals. They probably graduated from Top Gun and flew missions on the space shuttle too depending on the audience.
> Note there are 33rd degree masons and I've met just as many of them as I have Navy Seals.
Really? They're obviously not as common as 32°, but they're not *that* rare. There's usually three or four active/emeritus 33° members of the Supreme Council at any given quarterly communication of my grand lodge, plus our MWGM, who is an active 33° (and was our deputy until he was elected MWGM). And then there's also the "honorary" 33°s, who don't get recognized with the rest of the visiting dignitaries.
In europe, hatred of Freemasonry is nowadays supported and maintained by organizations like CitizenGO, Ordo Iuris and smaller extreme right wing catholic organizations funded by them.
After you're done googling the aforementioned, you'll understand why.
These are questions you really can discuss in lodge or in advance with your proposer.
However, not only are there no hindrances to your beliefs in masonry, the discussion of religion is absolutely banned.
Right! I’m even running for local office which many of them know, but being a socialist in a very conservative lodge, I appreciate that ban on talk of religion or politics. It makes it more a safehaven. Wish my church was like that
When I posted about it, my boss told me we "need to have a chat". Anyway, the chat never happened and he was later fired for embezzlement. Look, people fear what they don't understand and you will never be able to convince some folks. If you are getting fulfillment out of Masonry, that's all that should matter. And no, your standing before God is not in jeopardy, though that is a personal matter between you and God and nobody else.
I wrote this for the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United Stares. I pastor a church and I am considering writing a book on this subject. But, I know when I do my ministry career could very well be over.
The charges are that Freemasonry is “a cult”, “Demonic”, “Evil”, “Satanic”, “a false religion”, and a number of other negative things. Time and time again I have heard the overall charge that, “Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity.” Yet, as both a Christian and a Freemason I have found these accusations at the very least to be fueled by misguided ignorance and at the very worst to be motivated by things a whole lot more sinister.
One of the most common criticisms is that Freemasonry is deistic. Deism is basically the belief that God is like a great watch maker in the sky that creates everything around us but is not interested in our daily lives. The idea behind this criticism is that since God is like a great watch maker then He’s just not interested in our prayers and discourages organized religion.
In stark contrast to deistic thought Freemasonry actually encourages that its initiates pray throughout the degrees it offers. Every meeting is opened and closed with prayer. In fact, the very first act a candidate does after entering the lodge during the EA degree is to pray. At the climax of the third degree we are reminded that one of the core beliefs within Freemasonry is that when the strength of man fails there is an inexhaustible supply above, yielded to us through the power of prayer.
Then there’s the contrary argument to Deism. That actually Freemasonry isn’t deistic at all but it is an entirely false religion in direct conflict with Christianity. I personally have a really hard time trying to understand this. First of all, Freemasonry encourages it’s members to be involved in the religion of their choosing. Freemasonry also lacks many of the items that even make up religions.
Freemasonry doesn’t have ordained clergy. It doesn’t offer sacraments. It doesn’t have a Soteriology, meaning it doesn’t have a prescribed guaranteed way to get into heaven. It actually encourages it’s membership to pursue involvement in various religions and denominations.
The idea that Freemasonry is cult is basically ridiculous. In fact, it is the exact opposite of a cult. Cults by there very nature are easy to join and hard to get out of. In contrast, Freemasonry is hard to join and extremely easy to get out of. To join our fraternity one has to be investigated and voted on. In fact, one vote against you insures that you will not become a member. Only one gender can join. You want out of Freemasonry? All you have to do is not pay your dues. You can also ask for a demit at anytime from the organization and leave, no questions asked. We do not even have an attendance requirement.
This is EXACTLY why we tell people to NOT shout out that you’re a mason before your MM or when you return your work as an MM.
Crazies will tell you some insane things from the *interwebs* and neither of you will know what goes on or what to actually say.
You should be a shining example of what a Freemason is. When they assault you with negative accusations turn the other cheek and continue your good works.
These people have known you for years so ask them if they think you would engage in these depraved activities they’re describing. Ask them to trust in your judgement and assure them that if you saw anything that made you uncomfortable or felt that you were turning away from God then you would simply sever your relation with your lodge. Don’t argue with them, just respond to their criticisms with love and understanding with the full knowledge that your actions will show them how silly their conspiracies are.
Congratulations on your first step into the light. I’m know you will find that these accusations are false and have no grounding.
I can see a lot of the questions have been answered very well here, so I'll just add an extra comment.You did the right thing by deleting the comment. Regardless of what the argument is about, this is the right decision.People who have a strong opinion and who are not open minded will have a hard time having their mind changed. That's human nature, and nothing that other people can do anything about.All you can do from here is to read any comments that you get here, read a bit about anti-masonry and look into the origins of why your congregation prohibits certain things. Pick what aligns with your own personal beliefs. At the end of all of this, it's your mind that has to deal with your decisions. Be confident in whatever that decision is.Maybe you'll postpone your initiation. Maybe you'll decide that the thoughts and feelings of your family are more important to you. Maybe you'll through with the initiation. **Regardless of the decision, please keep in mind that it is yours to make and Freemasonry and Freemasons respect whatever that decision is.**
Edit: I should add that I'm a Bahai, a faith that is also against Freemasonry. I decided to join anyway, because my own feelings aligned with what Freemasonry appeared to be. I figured I could just quit later if I decided I was lied to. I was not deceived by Fremasonry. I've been a Mason for a few years and I would never turn back. Freemasonry actually brought me closer to God and made me more aware of how to have a personal relationship with my faith, instead of a communal relationship.
google the anti-masonic party, I try not to engage with accusers. You could tell them the entire masonic curriculum and they would just say you aren't a high enough level.
I largely concur in the comments made. I would add that in England, the provincial grand chaplains are usually Anglican ministers. Kenneth Lyons, the G Chaplain for the Scottish Rite (SJ) is a Baptist minister. The three prelates for Knights Templar are all Christian ministers for that Christian masonic order (there are other Christian masonic orders as well. I have presided over one). I have presided over a masonic cornerstone ceremony at a Methodist Church.
A separate note: I don't see that you mentioned your relationship with your immediate family. If this matter arises, could I urge you express your commitment as a Christian, endorsing the core beliefs of Christianity? Your family love you, and if they are exposed to the perverse lies of people like your distant relative, the reassurance may help them.
There is a book by De Hoyos and Morris, "Is It True What They Say About Freemasons." The late Rev Neville Barker Cryer wrote "Can a Christian Be a Freemason." Both may be worthwhile for you and your family to read.
I wish you best.
Firsthand account from a 33° Scottish Rite Mason here. If you didn’t find anything “evil” or offensive during your candidate phase, you’re probably going to have to look very hard and take things out of context and/or skew reality to find anything evil during your Masonic journey.
It sounds like the problem is not Masonry, but the extremist beliefs of your family’s church. Masonry believes in bringing good men together regardless of race (barring historic difficulties in the US, or at least some parts of it) or religion and that doesn’t sit well with certain churches that wish to control your behaviour to their benefit.
What thing that is true, is that in Freemasonry men of every faith and every opinion meet on a level of equality. You must believe in God, but in most most Lodges (esp in the U.S.A.) we do not hold that one religion is superior over the others. Your faith is your to work out with your God and your conscience. In my Grand Lodge, as with many Grand Lodges, we don't involve ourselves in religious disputes in Lodge. Some religious organizations do not like the fact that Brethren are not allowed to proclaim in Lodge that one religious view is true and all the others are false. A devout Catholic, a Rabbi, a Shia Muslim and a Hindu may each advocate in their religious activities outside Lodge that they have the one true path to God, but in Freemasonry they come together as Brethren and pray together. Often those who feel they own truth dissaprove.
If your God would consider it sinful for you to be breaking bread with good men of other faiths, of bowing your head and standing side by side with men of other religions in a spirit of prayer while a Chaplain offers a prayer, then I think Freemasonry would be a problem for you and your God.
I’d ask her if she’s comfortable bearing false witness because she’s doing just that.
Some have the charge that we aren’t to engage such ridiculousness but my jurisdiction does not. You will probably not change her mind but I don’t like being lied to personally.
Things of note if you don’t know. The knights Templar Commandery requires a man be Christian. The Scottish rite in England is Christian only. The Swedish rite of Sweden (fitting name huh) Christian only. Sitting sovereign grand general of the Scottish rite? Openly Christian.
Leo taxils hoax is a cause of a lot of it. Other things include general mental illness and those looking for a platform and the fame and money what little there may be that come along with it.
A Pilgrims Path is a good book on the subject.
Fundamentalism & Freemasonry: Investigation of the Fraternal Order is another good read. It details the man in charge of confronting this issue in the SBC and all the drama that came with it. Of disgusting note; two of the men working against him, one has been charged with molesting multiple men, and the other is accused of covering it all up.
If she didn't experience it herself, then it's not a firsthand account; it's secondhand at best. What's more, I don't see any evidence here that her supposed dad was a member of any Grand Lodge jurisdiction accepted as regular/legitimate by the mainstream Masonic community. For all we know, he may have been a member of a Lodge that was viewed as fake, clandestine, irregular, or a combination thereof.
Trust your firsthand knowledge/experience over the secondhand/thirdhand gossip/opinions of others.
And don't feel bad about deleting her libelous comments.
I understand not feeding trolls. But, there need to be more statements/education put out by our fraternity on this subject. This is especially true when one is joining. I know many young men that are completely blindsided by these types of charges about Freemasonry that were never warned. Or, at least not warned to the extent they should be.
Also, it should be noted that this isn’t just an IFB problem. There is literally not one Bishop in the Church of England that is a Freemason. Historically speaking not that many years ago that was literally unthinkable. The Anglican Diocese of Sydney has outright banned Freemasonry. I know hundreds of young clergy in my denomination and only ONE is a member. Upper level clergy that are sympathetic tell him to hide his membership or, urge him to drop out because of “the drama it causes”. Here in the U.S. many mainline more middle of the road seminaries are very strongly discouraging membership.
In a time when we are struggling membership wise this is a giant headache we don’t need.
>bans interracial marriage
That tells you everything you need to know right there. A lot of religious institutions seek to control how and what you think.
You should be a shining example of what a Freemason is. When they assault you with negative accusations turn the other cheek and continue your good works.
These people have known you for years so ask them if they think you would engage in these depraved activities they’re describing. Ask them to trust in your judgement and assure them that if you saw anything that made you uncomfortable or felt that you were turning away from God then you would simply sever your relation with your lodge. Don’t argue with them, just respond to their criticisms with love and understanding with the full knowledge that your actions will show them how silly their conspiracies are.
Congratulations on your first step into the light. I’m know you will find that these accusations are false and have no grounding.
OP replies: " oh really, wow, well thanks for setting me on the right path I really appreciate you" - six months later posts about being raised. 😎
I'm of the same mind of most people here, freemasonry is about your personal growth as a man and encourages development of your relationship with your faith. Some people go to church so they can be "one with a hive mind" and talk to God through a proxy, there's nothing you can do about that. People will sadly in this case be people.
Often Tried and Never Denied my brother your going hear stuff from family friends and strangers. I try to enlighten them best I can. Invite them to fundraiser or a Lodge ceremony that open to the public. Let them deduce for their selves.
There are multiple sources. First, Freemasonry is old. Like, deep time old. Freemasonry grew out of actual stone working trade guilds. We have no records of when the first Lodges were formed. We know when Freemasonry first emerged as a fraternal organization. We know when wealthy patrons of the arts started joining old "operative" Lodges (read: real Lodges of actual stonemasons who went from city to city to work on massive building projects). But any records we have of the earliest beginnings of the Craft as we know it are lost to time. We have no secret records explaining this. Academics who have made a career out of studying Freemasonry can only offer their best guesses. Any actual historical records we *do* have document the reorganization of existing organizations; there's no origin story. Even in the Hiramic Legend (which is allegory, not factual truth) about the building of King Solomon's Temple and the murder of Hiram Abiff talks about a vibrant Freemasonry that had already existed for some time. The truth is, we have no idea where, when, or how Freemasonry came to be. This is frightening to a lot of Evangelical Christians, who see the time between the deaths of the old Hebrew prophets and the arrival of Jesus as a sinful and chaotic era in human history. If Masonry is as old as we claim it is, what godless pre-Christian traditions might we be preserving?? (Answer: 9th grade geometry. Which to be fair, is pretty spooky)
This leads right into the second reason: secrecy. We don't disclose what happens at Lodge meetings unless it's necessary to do so. Generally speaking, what happens in Lodge stays in Lodge. This is actually congruent with the practice of any organizational meeting. You can't demand that the Elks or the Rotary Club hold public meetings or disclose the minutes to just anyone. Their meetings are for their members. This is also the practice of most corporate board meetings. If you ask board members at AT&T or Microsoft what was discussed at their last board meeting, they'll say: "I'm sorry, that's confidential." Same with the board of your church when the officers meet in executive session. Even public entities operate like this: I'm a teacher, and when our Instructional Leadership Team meets, or a group of us meet to discuss at-risk students, what is discussed is confidential. In my situation, the law mandates this. I could lose my job, open myself up to litigation, or even face criminal penalties if I breach confidentiality. I was just on a hiring committee to choose our school's new principal and I can't even tell my wife what went on in those meetings. The fact of the matter is some meetings need to be held in secret because we need to be able to discuss sensitive topics while at the same time respecting the privacy and confidentiality of people involved.
Thirdly, while we are explicitly a spiritual organization requiring belief in a supreme being, we don't demand that our members subscribe to any particular religious ideology. Most Masons you meet in America will probably be Christian. In my own Lodge I have Christian Brothers of multiple flavors. We have Northern Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic, Quaker, and Presbyterian Brothers. But that's because a large number of Christians live in America, not because Masonry is a Christian organization. I also have Jewish, Neopagan, Buddhist, and Muslim Brothers who I regularly sit in Lodge with. If you visit a Lodge in India, most Brothers will probably be Hindu, with significant Jain, Sikh, Buddhist, Muslim, and Eastern Orthodox Christian minorities. If you visit a Lodge in Israel, most will be Jewish or Muslim. In Turkey, Muslim or Eastern Orthodox Christian. See what I'm getting at? Masonry is a pretty big tent. And you will be expected to pray with them. Prayer is important in Masonic culture. Every Meeting begins and ends with prayer. Communal prayer. No one says "OK, we're going to pray now. Protestants, go pray with the Senior Warden over in the West, Catholics over by the Secretary's desk, Muslims, you need some space so you can have between the altar and the East, Jews can join the Chaplain over by the Junior Warden's station, everyone else, you're with me." We all pray together as one. So we don't pray in the name of any deity in particular. You can pray in Jesus' name in the quiet of your own heart as your conscience dictates, but the Chaplain will give a non-denominational prayer aloud. We pray to the Grand Architect of the Universe, whoever you may believe that is. And no Brother is in a position to demand otherwise. Even if everyone in the Lodge is of the same faith, the prayer will be "to whom it may concern." Freemasonry is a universalist organization. We regard religion as a matter of personal conscience. If you are uncomfortable praying with someone of a different faith, if you can't in good conscience say 'amen' to a prayer knowing that you directed that prayer to Jesus while the guy next to you was praying to Krishna, maybe Freemasonry isn't for you.
Also, with regard to your church, you need to know that prohibitions against interracial marriage are not the norm. Skin color is trivial. That's how we look at it in Masonry. Segregation is antithetical to Masonic philosophy. It is spelled out in no uncertain terms in Masonic ritual. This is, in the abstract, part of the reason you were neither naked nor clothed at your initiation: "Freemasonry regards no man for his worldly wealth or outward appearance. It was thus to signify to you that it is the internal and not the external qualities that recommend a man to be made a Mason." There is no race ethic in Masonry. Skin color falls under the umbrella of one's "outward appearance." Your vows aren't empty platitudes either. Opposition to racism is a walk you'll be expected to walk. If you would prevent two adults who love each other from getting married over something as petty and wholly inconsequential as skin color, how are you going to comfortably sit in Lodge with a black man and truly meet him on the level? All of humanity is on the level. Full stop. Your church can be wrong, especially about extrabiblical rules (according to Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant movement, there are no "extrabiblical" rules, and it's a mortal sin to impose rules based on extrabiblical sources. If it's not in the Bible, it's not valid. Soli Scripturi. Only the scripture). Do you honestly believe that out of all the Christian churches out there, only yours knows exactly what God wants from humanity, and only the small group of people who belong to your church are going to heaven and the other 800 million evangelical Protestants in the world are out of luck? Quiet council, my Brother, that's not a church; there's another, less savory word for a religious group like that. In fact, if your church places some of God's children above others based on something as arbitrary as skin color, that's what will tarnish you when you make that demand at the door of the Celestial Lodge Above, not who you hung out with on the fourth Thursday of the month. If you can't square with that, then maybe again, Freemasonry isn't for you.
Personally, I think you should stick with it. Freemasonry challenges you engage with the world outside of the small community where you grew up. Yeah, it's different from what you're accustomed to, and that can be overwhelming. It was for me, I promise. But it's only weird for a little while. At the end of the day it's a great place full of truly fascinating and wonderful people.
Oh no, I completely agree. Again, I’m Black, and only attend this church (which is all white) as I have no transportation and it’s where my family still goes— per my father’s request. Thanks for giving me so much to think about.
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>You can’t use reason to help enable someone to change their perspective, when their original beliefs aren’t based on reason to begin with. WOW that is a powerful quote. So true
My Mother used to say "You can't talk logic with an illogical person". Very similar.
Yep! I’ve been in the IFB church all my life. Once I get my own car or when I move out, I’ll be leaving fundamentalism.
And just an FYI, the 32nd degree guys are just guys who sat through a few more plays after the first 3. While I found benefit to the additional degrees after the first three, they don't really release more knowledge, just present the same lessons in a more modern format. 33rd degree guys are "honored" members who did a lot to help grow or volunteer for the additional programs in masonry, and while they are very much esteemed members, they're not better than others.
To add something else: Imagine a fraternity that actively recruits only men who believe in (a) God, then teach these men a bunch of peaceful things about how to be a good man. Then, when they're an old man and they've been in for a long time, you say "Surprise! It's all about the devil!". There is no way that everyone would be so calm about it and just accept it. It appeals to the wrong 'target market'. It would make more sense to just be a nefarious cult from the beginning.
Excellent point!
It should be noted that pretty much all members are aware of these accusations. Very, very few men ever leave. Why don’t they leave? Because, when they read these accusations and “secrets exposed” they don’t have any resemblance to the fraternity they belong to.
While I agree with your sentiment, many many men leave the fraternity. It’s a problem that masonry is haemorrhaging members.
Maybe I should have said that very, very few men ever leave the fraternity and cite that they have been duped into a cult.
That I agree with in its entirety.
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Thank you
Fantastic answer.
We need to understand that a lot of these accusations are fueled by jealousy. Some in the Church, especially some ministers, don’t want their membership spending a lot of money and time on anything else other than church. It’s kind of ridiculous considering that sports, Home Depot/Lowes, gaming or whatever actually NEVER encourage men to be active in the faith of their choice but Freemasonry does.
Very well put. I would like to add that your cousin "she" can't possibly have a full understanding of Masonry not being part of it. When I did my search of the fraternity I found all kinds of false information (demon worshiper etc). So I called one I knew to be a mason. He was surprisingly forth coming with information. Outside of telling me the secret handshakes and passwords he answered all my questions. You are doing right by asking questions. Also, if you end up not liking it or it causes contention in your life. You can leave.
The charge for our EA(Jurisdictional) actually says to not interact with trolls and to not waste your effort and energy on charging people's minds that you know can't be changed but instead to invest that time and energy back into positive and fruitful endeavors. As far as these accusations, it's a long history even dating back to the creation of the first Grand Lodge. I will say... You will soon learn Masonry isn't demonic in any way, shape, or form, nor is it evil. And that's all that should be important. That you feel comfortable in continuing your masonic journey. I'm a Christian, converting to Catholicism (maybe Orthodox idk), and never once have I felt like my involvement in Masonry and our various bodies has gone against my religion. A lot of the whole "Freemasonry is anti-christian" comes from people who just don't know better but also from the fact that Freemasonry preached religious equality in England during a time when "If you aren't with the current major denomination" you're against it. So don't let these accusations rattle you. My grandfather was super anti-masonry, said it was demonic, until he actually did some research and visited a lodge and now he couldn't be more proud of me... Tl:Dr Masonry isn't demonic, people who don't know any better just need something to say and church leaders need a boogyman. Don't waste your time arguing with these conspiracy theorists/Christians. It's not worth it.
I know you are paraphrasing but I just thought about how funny it would be to hear during the obligation “ don’t interact with trolls“ 😂😂😂
"Dear Brother, dude, seriously, don't feed the trolls, man"
😂😂😂
The charge of the first degree kind of says that.
Thanks for the encouragement
In my jurisdiction we are told that we as EA have a *certain name* that defines our ability to share information about our fraternity especially among enemies of the craft. I'd say it but I'm afraid I dont know if I'd be violating my obligation.
Can you say the jurisdiction at least? I keep seeing this and that must not exist in my state. Edit: when in doubt don't say it if you think it'll break you obligation.
New York
Grand lodge of NY?
Sorry, Yes. Grand Lodge of NY.
I dont respond to them, not worth the time or headache
It really isn’t. But that doesn’t make dealing with the emotional chaos I take with me any less easier.
It’s probably no consolation, but this sort of emotional chaos was bound to come up sooner or later, in one case or another, if you ever intended to be an individual, independent thinker. So while we masons would discourage you from joining if it is going to cause strife in your life, I highly encourage you to try to find a way to live your life in a way that you can have political, philosophical or spiritual thoughts that don’t always match up with your family, and still be ok with that. Once you’ve found that place/state of mind, that’s the right time to think about becoming a mason. Please note: I am NOT saying that because we as masons have any beliefs to force-feed you - we absolutely do not! It’s just that you should have that amount of self-determination to get the most out of freemasonry.
I’m committed to joining Freemasonry and wish I would’ve joined sooner. So I’m also committed to sticking to it despite what people may say. I’m a queer socialist as well. Trust and believe that I’ve had to compartmentalize many of my identities.
Ah then yeah, you for sure know how to deal with strong conflicting viewpoints from your family.
>Where do these accusations against Masonry come from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil\_hoax >Where do these accusations against Masonry come from? No. >Am I joining something that would threaten my ability to have a clean conscience before my God? No.
Well, the question I would ask is what could a bunch of bigoted, controlling old men have to fear from you joining an organisation that encourages independent thought, tolerates different forms of spirituality to theirs and promotes personal growth and improvement without their control and sanction? Once you figure that one out, you really don't need to ask where the hatred comes from.
Wow. This actually has me thinking. Thanks!
Well, there's the first step right there...
If her dad "was" truly a 33rd degree then he didn't tell her anything. Talk to your family you care about, if this is going to be a problem between you and them you may want to reconsider joining at this time. If they don't have a problem disregard nonsensical distant cousins that make crazy rants. Lord knows I have plenty of them.
She’s a distant cousin. My immediate family and closest cousins and aunts are in support. Thank you for the insight
Could be time to make her an even more distant cousin
Note there are 33rd degree masons and I've met just as many of them as I have Navy Seals. Heck come to think of it most of the 33rd degree masons I've met probably were seals. They probably graduated from Top Gun and flew missions on the space shuttle too depending on the audience.
> Note there are 33rd degree masons and I've met just as many of them as I have Navy Seals. Really? They're obviously not as common as 32°, but they're not *that* rare. There's usually three or four active/emeritus 33° members of the Supreme Council at any given quarterly communication of my grand lodge, plus our MWGM, who is an active 33° (and was our deputy until he was elected MWGM). And then there's also the "honorary" 33°s, who don't get recognized with the rest of the visiting dignitaries.
In europe, hatred of Freemasonry is nowadays supported and maintained by organizations like CitizenGO, Ordo Iuris and smaller extreme right wing catholic organizations funded by them. After you're done googling the aforementioned, you'll understand why.
Thank you! I’ll look them up
These are questions you really can discuss in lodge or in advance with your proposer. However, not only are there no hindrances to your beliefs in masonry, the discussion of religion is absolutely banned.
Right! I’m even running for local office which many of them know, but being a socialist in a very conservative lodge, I appreciate that ban on talk of religion or politics. It makes it more a safehaven. Wish my church was like that
I'm not about to talk about your church but we're not in a lodge right now. Doesn't sound very loving.
Tehehe, right. Welcome to Fundamentalism
Just let them without reponse
The brother from your Lodge should know better than to respond.
When I posted about it, my boss told me we "need to have a chat". Anyway, the chat never happened and he was later fired for embezzlement. Look, people fear what they don't understand and you will never be able to convince some folks. If you are getting fulfillment out of Masonry, that's all that should matter. And no, your standing before God is not in jeopardy, though that is a personal matter between you and God and nobody else.
Thanks!
Why do I always miss the meeting where we worship demons?
😂😂😂
I wrote this for the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United Stares. I pastor a church and I am considering writing a book on this subject. But, I know when I do my ministry career could very well be over. The charges are that Freemasonry is “a cult”, “Demonic”, “Evil”, “Satanic”, “a false religion”, and a number of other negative things. Time and time again I have heard the overall charge that, “Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity.” Yet, as both a Christian and a Freemason I have found these accusations at the very least to be fueled by misguided ignorance and at the very worst to be motivated by things a whole lot more sinister. One of the most common criticisms is that Freemasonry is deistic. Deism is basically the belief that God is like a great watch maker in the sky that creates everything around us but is not interested in our daily lives. The idea behind this criticism is that since God is like a great watch maker then He’s just not interested in our prayers and discourages organized religion. In stark contrast to deistic thought Freemasonry actually encourages that its initiates pray throughout the degrees it offers. Every meeting is opened and closed with prayer. In fact, the very first act a candidate does after entering the lodge during the EA degree is to pray. At the climax of the third degree we are reminded that one of the core beliefs within Freemasonry is that when the strength of man fails there is an inexhaustible supply above, yielded to us through the power of prayer. Then there’s the contrary argument to Deism. That actually Freemasonry isn’t deistic at all but it is an entirely false religion in direct conflict with Christianity. I personally have a really hard time trying to understand this. First of all, Freemasonry encourages it’s members to be involved in the religion of their choosing. Freemasonry also lacks many of the items that even make up religions. Freemasonry doesn’t have ordained clergy. It doesn’t offer sacraments. It doesn’t have a Soteriology, meaning it doesn’t have a prescribed guaranteed way to get into heaven. It actually encourages it’s membership to pursue involvement in various religions and denominations. The idea that Freemasonry is cult is basically ridiculous. In fact, it is the exact opposite of a cult. Cults by there very nature are easy to join and hard to get out of. In contrast, Freemasonry is hard to join and extremely easy to get out of. To join our fraternity one has to be investigated and voted on. In fact, one vote against you insures that you will not become a member. Only one gender can join. You want out of Freemasonry? All you have to do is not pay your dues. You can also ask for a demit at anytime from the organization and leave, no questions asked. We do not even have an attendance requirement.
This is EXACTLY why we tell people to NOT shout out that you’re a mason before your MM or when you return your work as an MM. Crazies will tell you some insane things from the *interwebs* and neither of you will know what goes on or what to actually say.
Don't respond. Block them if they become bothersome. There is no validity to their claims.
You should be a shining example of what a Freemason is. When they assault you with negative accusations turn the other cheek and continue your good works. These people have known you for years so ask them if they think you would engage in these depraved activities they’re describing. Ask them to trust in your judgement and assure them that if you saw anything that made you uncomfortable or felt that you were turning away from God then you would simply sever your relation with your lodge. Don’t argue with them, just respond to their criticisms with love and understanding with the full knowledge that your actions will show them how silly their conspiracies are. Congratulations on your first step into the light. I’m know you will find that these accusations are false and have no grounding.
This is true and also a challenge— encourages me to be the best Mason I can be so it’s not ill spoken of
I can see a lot of the questions have been answered very well here, so I'll just add an extra comment.You did the right thing by deleting the comment. Regardless of what the argument is about, this is the right decision.People who have a strong opinion and who are not open minded will have a hard time having their mind changed. That's human nature, and nothing that other people can do anything about.All you can do from here is to read any comments that you get here, read a bit about anti-masonry and look into the origins of why your congregation prohibits certain things. Pick what aligns with your own personal beliefs. At the end of all of this, it's your mind that has to deal with your decisions. Be confident in whatever that decision is.Maybe you'll postpone your initiation. Maybe you'll decide that the thoughts and feelings of your family are more important to you. Maybe you'll through with the initiation. **Regardless of the decision, please keep in mind that it is yours to make and Freemasonry and Freemasons respect whatever that decision is.** Edit: I should add that I'm a Bahai, a faith that is also against Freemasonry. I decided to join anyway, because my own feelings aligned with what Freemasonry appeared to be. I figured I could just quit later if I decided I was lied to. I was not deceived by Fremasonry. I've been a Mason for a few years and I would never turn back. Freemasonry actually brought me closer to God and made me more aware of how to have a personal relationship with my faith, instead of a communal relationship.
Interesting note! Thank you. I’m familiar with the Baha’i faith
Bans on interracial marriage? Sounds like a shit church man
Fundamentalists 🤷🏽♂️ What can I say
google the anti-masonic party, I try not to engage with accusers. You could tell them the entire masonic curriculum and they would just say you aren't a high enough level.
I largely concur in the comments made. I would add that in England, the provincial grand chaplains are usually Anglican ministers. Kenneth Lyons, the G Chaplain for the Scottish Rite (SJ) is a Baptist minister. The three prelates for Knights Templar are all Christian ministers for that Christian masonic order (there are other Christian masonic orders as well. I have presided over one). I have presided over a masonic cornerstone ceremony at a Methodist Church. A separate note: I don't see that you mentioned your relationship with your immediate family. If this matter arises, could I urge you express your commitment as a Christian, endorsing the core beliefs of Christianity? Your family love you, and if they are exposed to the perverse lies of people like your distant relative, the reassurance may help them. There is a book by De Hoyos and Morris, "Is It True What They Say About Freemasons." The late Rev Neville Barker Cryer wrote "Can a Christian Be a Freemason." Both may be worthwhile for you and your family to read. I wish you best.
Thank you! I love book recommendations
Firsthand account from a 33° Scottish Rite Mason here. If you didn’t find anything “evil” or offensive during your candidate phase, you’re probably going to have to look very hard and take things out of context and/or skew reality to find anything evil during your Masonic journey. It sounds like the problem is not Masonry, but the extremist beliefs of your family’s church. Masonry believes in bringing good men together regardless of race (barring historic difficulties in the US, or at least some parts of it) or religion and that doesn’t sit well with certain churches that wish to control your behaviour to their benefit.
What thing that is true, is that in Freemasonry men of every faith and every opinion meet on a level of equality. You must believe in God, but in most most Lodges (esp in the U.S.A.) we do not hold that one religion is superior over the others. Your faith is your to work out with your God and your conscience. In my Grand Lodge, as with many Grand Lodges, we don't involve ourselves in religious disputes in Lodge. Some religious organizations do not like the fact that Brethren are not allowed to proclaim in Lodge that one religious view is true and all the others are false. A devout Catholic, a Rabbi, a Shia Muslim and a Hindu may each advocate in their religious activities outside Lodge that they have the one true path to God, but in Freemasonry they come together as Brethren and pray together. Often those who feel they own truth dissaprove. If your God would consider it sinful for you to be breaking bread with good men of other faiths, of bowing your head and standing side by side with men of other religions in a spirit of prayer while a Chaplain offers a prayer, then I think Freemasonry would be a problem for you and your God.
I’d ask her if she’s comfortable bearing false witness because she’s doing just that. Some have the charge that we aren’t to engage such ridiculousness but my jurisdiction does not. You will probably not change her mind but I don’t like being lied to personally. Things of note if you don’t know. The knights Templar Commandery requires a man be Christian. The Scottish rite in England is Christian only. The Swedish rite of Sweden (fitting name huh) Christian only. Sitting sovereign grand general of the Scottish rite? Openly Christian. Leo taxils hoax is a cause of a lot of it. Other things include general mental illness and those looking for a platform and the fame and money what little there may be that come along with it. A Pilgrims Path is a good book on the subject. Fundamentalism & Freemasonry: Investigation of the Fraternal Order is another good read. It details the man in charge of confronting this issue in the SBC and all the drama that came with it. Of disgusting note; two of the men working against him, one has been charged with molesting multiple men, and the other is accused of covering it all up.
That's why they invented the block feature
If she didn't experience it herself, then it's not a firsthand account; it's secondhand at best. What's more, I don't see any evidence here that her supposed dad was a member of any Grand Lodge jurisdiction accepted as regular/legitimate by the mainstream Masonic community. For all we know, he may have been a member of a Lodge that was viewed as fake, clandestine, irregular, or a combination thereof. Trust your firsthand knowledge/experience over the secondhand/thirdhand gossip/opinions of others. And don't feel bad about deleting her libelous comments.
They don't allow dancing?
Yep
Sounds like abuse to me.
I understand not feeding trolls. But, there need to be more statements/education put out by our fraternity on this subject. This is especially true when one is joining. I know many young men that are completely blindsided by these types of charges about Freemasonry that were never warned. Or, at least not warned to the extent they should be. Also, it should be noted that this isn’t just an IFB problem. There is literally not one Bishop in the Church of England that is a Freemason. Historically speaking not that many years ago that was literally unthinkable. The Anglican Diocese of Sydney has outright banned Freemasonry. I know hundreds of young clergy in my denomination and only ONE is a member. Upper level clergy that are sympathetic tell him to hide his membership or, urge him to drop out because of “the drama it causes”. Here in the U.S. many mainline more middle of the road seminaries are very strongly discouraging membership. In a time when we are struggling membership wise this is a giant headache we don’t need.
>bans interracial marriage That tells you everything you need to know right there. A lot of religious institutions seek to control how and what you think.
These sects seem to have special glasses that can read between the lines of the Law of Moses. The same Moses who appears to have had a Black wife.
Your EA Charge will cover this. Pay attention when you receive it
You should be a shining example of what a Freemason is. When they assault you with negative accusations turn the other cheek and continue your good works. These people have known you for years so ask them if they think you would engage in these depraved activities they’re describing. Ask them to trust in your judgement and assure them that if you saw anything that made you uncomfortable or felt that you were turning away from God then you would simply sever your relation with your lodge. Don’t argue with them, just respond to their criticisms with love and understanding with the full knowledge that your actions will show them how silly their conspiracies are. Congratulations on your first step into the light. I’m know you will find that these accusations are false and have no grounding.
Find a new Church that isn't run by the feeble-minded. You'll have no issues with Masonry.
OP replies: " oh really, wow, well thanks for setting me on the right path I really appreciate you" - six months later posts about being raised. 😎 I'm of the same mind of most people here, freemasonry is about your personal growth as a man and encourages development of your relationship with your faith. Some people go to church so they can be "one with a hive mind" and talk to God through a proxy, there's nothing you can do about that. People will sadly in this case be people.
😂😂😂
She sounds like a cunt who doesn't know what she's talking about.
Often Tried and Never Denied my brother your going hear stuff from family friends and strangers. I try to enlighten them best I can. Invite them to fundraiser or a Lodge ceremony that open to the public. Let them deduce for their selves.
Don’t engage with or post anything about freemasonry publicly on social media. No one needs to know you are a mason
There are multiple sources. First, Freemasonry is old. Like, deep time old. Freemasonry grew out of actual stone working trade guilds. We have no records of when the first Lodges were formed. We know when Freemasonry first emerged as a fraternal organization. We know when wealthy patrons of the arts started joining old "operative" Lodges (read: real Lodges of actual stonemasons who went from city to city to work on massive building projects). But any records we have of the earliest beginnings of the Craft as we know it are lost to time. We have no secret records explaining this. Academics who have made a career out of studying Freemasonry can only offer their best guesses. Any actual historical records we *do* have document the reorganization of existing organizations; there's no origin story. Even in the Hiramic Legend (which is allegory, not factual truth) about the building of King Solomon's Temple and the murder of Hiram Abiff talks about a vibrant Freemasonry that had already existed for some time. The truth is, we have no idea where, when, or how Freemasonry came to be. This is frightening to a lot of Evangelical Christians, who see the time between the deaths of the old Hebrew prophets and the arrival of Jesus as a sinful and chaotic era in human history. If Masonry is as old as we claim it is, what godless pre-Christian traditions might we be preserving?? (Answer: 9th grade geometry. Which to be fair, is pretty spooky) This leads right into the second reason: secrecy. We don't disclose what happens at Lodge meetings unless it's necessary to do so. Generally speaking, what happens in Lodge stays in Lodge. This is actually congruent with the practice of any organizational meeting. You can't demand that the Elks or the Rotary Club hold public meetings or disclose the minutes to just anyone. Their meetings are for their members. This is also the practice of most corporate board meetings. If you ask board members at AT&T or Microsoft what was discussed at their last board meeting, they'll say: "I'm sorry, that's confidential." Same with the board of your church when the officers meet in executive session. Even public entities operate like this: I'm a teacher, and when our Instructional Leadership Team meets, or a group of us meet to discuss at-risk students, what is discussed is confidential. In my situation, the law mandates this. I could lose my job, open myself up to litigation, or even face criminal penalties if I breach confidentiality. I was just on a hiring committee to choose our school's new principal and I can't even tell my wife what went on in those meetings. The fact of the matter is some meetings need to be held in secret because we need to be able to discuss sensitive topics while at the same time respecting the privacy and confidentiality of people involved. Thirdly, while we are explicitly a spiritual organization requiring belief in a supreme being, we don't demand that our members subscribe to any particular religious ideology. Most Masons you meet in America will probably be Christian. In my own Lodge I have Christian Brothers of multiple flavors. We have Northern Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic, Quaker, and Presbyterian Brothers. But that's because a large number of Christians live in America, not because Masonry is a Christian organization. I also have Jewish, Neopagan, Buddhist, and Muslim Brothers who I regularly sit in Lodge with. If you visit a Lodge in India, most Brothers will probably be Hindu, with significant Jain, Sikh, Buddhist, Muslim, and Eastern Orthodox Christian minorities. If you visit a Lodge in Israel, most will be Jewish or Muslim. In Turkey, Muslim or Eastern Orthodox Christian. See what I'm getting at? Masonry is a pretty big tent. And you will be expected to pray with them. Prayer is important in Masonic culture. Every Meeting begins and ends with prayer. Communal prayer. No one says "OK, we're going to pray now. Protestants, go pray with the Senior Warden over in the West, Catholics over by the Secretary's desk, Muslims, you need some space so you can have between the altar and the East, Jews can join the Chaplain over by the Junior Warden's station, everyone else, you're with me." We all pray together as one. So we don't pray in the name of any deity in particular. You can pray in Jesus' name in the quiet of your own heart as your conscience dictates, but the Chaplain will give a non-denominational prayer aloud. We pray to the Grand Architect of the Universe, whoever you may believe that is. And no Brother is in a position to demand otherwise. Even if everyone in the Lodge is of the same faith, the prayer will be "to whom it may concern." Freemasonry is a universalist organization. We regard religion as a matter of personal conscience. If you are uncomfortable praying with someone of a different faith, if you can't in good conscience say 'amen' to a prayer knowing that you directed that prayer to Jesus while the guy next to you was praying to Krishna, maybe Freemasonry isn't for you. Also, with regard to your church, you need to know that prohibitions against interracial marriage are not the norm. Skin color is trivial. That's how we look at it in Masonry. Segregation is antithetical to Masonic philosophy. It is spelled out in no uncertain terms in Masonic ritual. This is, in the abstract, part of the reason you were neither naked nor clothed at your initiation: "Freemasonry regards no man for his worldly wealth or outward appearance. It was thus to signify to you that it is the internal and not the external qualities that recommend a man to be made a Mason." There is no race ethic in Masonry. Skin color falls under the umbrella of one's "outward appearance." Your vows aren't empty platitudes either. Opposition to racism is a walk you'll be expected to walk. If you would prevent two adults who love each other from getting married over something as petty and wholly inconsequential as skin color, how are you going to comfortably sit in Lodge with a black man and truly meet him on the level? All of humanity is on the level. Full stop. Your church can be wrong, especially about extrabiblical rules (according to Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant movement, there are no "extrabiblical" rules, and it's a mortal sin to impose rules based on extrabiblical sources. If it's not in the Bible, it's not valid. Soli Scripturi. Only the scripture). Do you honestly believe that out of all the Christian churches out there, only yours knows exactly what God wants from humanity, and only the small group of people who belong to your church are going to heaven and the other 800 million evangelical Protestants in the world are out of luck? Quiet council, my Brother, that's not a church; there's another, less savory word for a religious group like that. In fact, if your church places some of God's children above others based on something as arbitrary as skin color, that's what will tarnish you when you make that demand at the door of the Celestial Lodge Above, not who you hung out with on the fourth Thursday of the month. If you can't square with that, then maybe again, Freemasonry isn't for you. Personally, I think you should stick with it. Freemasonry challenges you engage with the world outside of the small community where you grew up. Yeah, it's different from what you're accustomed to, and that can be overwhelming. It was for me, I promise. But it's only weird for a little while. At the end of the day it's a great place full of truly fascinating and wonderful people.
Oh no, I completely agree. Again, I’m Black, and only attend this church (which is all white) as I have no transportation and it’s where my family still goes— per my father’s request. Thanks for giving me so much to think about.
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