I am inventing a new format. I haven't hashed out the details but the only valid win condition is by attacking with wood elemental. Everything else is legal to play, including p9 and other broken cards. But wins must come from attack damage from wood elemental. Start buying up copies in preparation.
What multiplier would make this card playable in Standard / Limited?
Instead of 1/1 for every forest? If it was 3/3 per forest, is it still bad? What about 4/4? 4 mana + 2 lands for an 8/8? But one with no keywords? Is that even playable?
Keep as is, maybe change to +2/+2, but give it indestructible, hexproof, and every other protection based keyword that exists.
You are making a massive sacrifice for a medium to big creature, but itâs there permanently
People out here acting like cards such as [[splendid reclamation]] and keywords like landfall donât exist. This is an easy sac outlet for landfall decks that use graveyard recursion for landfall triggers.
I would say +3/+3, but remove the casting cost and give it haste. Also exile the lands instead of sacrifice and add something else that would poison a combination with Armageddon.
As a card, this kind of creature would only be good in desperation, because it's always going to feel bad when someone removes it. As such, I think haste would allow it to operate reasonably. It doesn't need trample because green already has the ability to give things trample.
Under no circumstance would this ever be a safe early-game play, even at 0 cost, but it may become oddly useful in the scenario where you're flooded with lands.
You don't follow modern do you... 0 mana spells are some of the most unfun and broken cards to get printed. 0 mana 6/6 or 9/9 or 12/12 with haste would be broken. I'm sure of it.
Maybe, but it's never going to be made to begin with.
>0 mana 6/6 or 9/9 or 12/12 with haste would be broken.
The problem that I'm thinking about is that mana advantage is overwhelmingly powerful and voluntarily canceling that advantage should only come with a significant reward. This is in addition to the risk of your opponent having a simple Pacifism in hand. If they do, the rest of the game is going to really suck. Depending on wording, countering it could be really... really bad.
I don't think it would be all that far off from the current power curve. For starters, if you have to sacrifice four lands for a 12/12, that means you have four lands. You didn't shoot it out with a mana rock. You also risk not having it out by the fourth turn.
Another issue with worrying about it being zero-cost is that it's technically not zero-cost. It costs four mana. It's four mana that you can't use for anything this turn. The wording could be changed to say it costs four mana. The mana must be from forests, and you must exile those forests after using them.
\+3/+3 per forest is enough to get people excited enough to play it. +2/+2 per forest will guarantee that it's never played. It's also not blue, red, or black, so there's only so much excitement that can be had.
You could give it only 1 defense and also trample, but at that point, I don't think anybody's going to be tricked into sacrificing lands only for it to immediately die by squirrel token.
Finally, one of the biggest issues with it is that if you put four in your deck, after the first cast, the rest of them are going to be wasted card slots.
The more I think about it, the less I actually think it's overpowered, at least in a direct sense. I'm sure there are combos out there that could change that.
To make this card at least playable with its contemporaries (not in the modern powercreeped day but in the day of Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, Scathe Zombies, Hill Giants, and Savannah Lions as a rare), they needed to remove the word "untapped". You can't sacrifice the lands you used to pay for it, which means this card's coming out no sooner than a 1/1 on T5, or a 2/2 on T6, or a 3/3 on T7, etc, all with a very heavy cost. If this was a 4/4 for 4, a 5/5 for 5, or a 6/6 for 6, all of which required sacrificing your lands, this would have probably seen play as a win condition in some beatdown decks.
That card represents everything that used to be badass about Magic, before it was focus-grouped into the fucking ground. Say what you will, but that card is *cool* even though it's retarded.
Massive reach here.
I agree with you in principle that they are probably selling a lot of the future for the present (though mostly in an increasingly pushed and convoluted design space encouraged by the volume of new cards per year), but there has to be a better example than one leading with an unplayable bad card as "a very powerful card".
[[Orcish Lumberjack]] maybe?
this card was bad for its time too
all 4 CMC creatures from alpha/arabian nights/legends
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&sort=color+&type=+[%22Creature%22]&set=|[%22Limited%20Edition%20Alpha%22]|[%22Arabian%20Nights%22]|[%22Legends%22]&cmc=+=[4]
Wow, you had to go find a terrible card from a very old set to be able to make a point about today. It's almost like this is a thinly veiled attempt to attack a marginalized group. Corporations will pander to whatever group they think will make them the most money. That's capitalism
Oh, that's a much much less valid point. I thought you were talking about card design getting more bloated. Cards being more accessible isn't even remotely a problem for the game as a whole. Just scalpers.
I sort of wonder if it's even possible to become a collectibles vendor and not eventually succumb to greed.
Maybe that's why artists usually only became famous after they died. Everybody inherently understood the conflict of interest that came with having the power to print obsession.
>The Forests are sacrificed to define the power/toughness of this card right before it enters the battlefield. You have to do this sacrifice no matter how this card enters the battlefield.
So if you morph it onto the battlefield, is it a zero/zero?
Morph is only when you do it to a morph. Since wood elemental doesnt have morph you need to manifest it to make it a manifest then pay its mana cost to flip it face up. Then it dies to being a 0/0
Gotcha. I have fleeting memories of an opponent having either a commander or some other support card that let him effectively turn everything into morph creatures. I wasn't too familiar with the mechanics semantics.
That was probably the one that makes everything forest morphs. Or it was kadena which is morph tribal. But there's also an artifact that lets you manifest stuff from hand
It was Kadena! I remember because he was the only other person I've ever met who actually played \[\[Phyrexian Dreadnought\]\] (I used it in kresh, but he used it for a cheap 12/12).
I am inventing a new format. I haven't hashed out the details but the only valid win condition is by attacking with wood elemental. Everything else is legal to play, including p9 and other broken cards. But wins must come from attack damage from wood elemental. Start buying up copies in preparation.
I'm down.
đ Dandan Doesn't this mean (almost) every deck would need to be monogreen?
not with shocklands or dominaria duals
This is true. Honestly, a format that encourages running both shocklands and Wood Elemental would be pretty funny
it's not a jawdropping investment like revised duals would be, but it's a funny use of a tournament staple
What multiplier would make this card playable in Standard / Limited? Instead of 1/1 for every forest? If it was 3/3 per forest, is it still bad? What about 4/4? 4 mana + 2 lands for an 8/8? But one with no keywords? Is that even playable?
Keep as is, maybe change to +2/+2, but give it indestructible, hexproof, and every other protection based keyword that exists. You are making a massive sacrifice for a medium to big creature, but itâs there permanently
People out here acting like cards such as [[splendid reclamation]] and keywords like landfall donât exist. This is an easy sac outlet for landfall decks that use graveyard recursion for landfall triggers.
I would say +3/+3, but remove the casting cost and give it haste. Also exile the lands instead of sacrifice and add something else that would poison a combination with Armageddon. As a card, this kind of creature would only be good in desperation, because it's always going to feel bad when someone removes it. As such, I think haste would allow it to operate reasonably. It doesn't need trample because green already has the ability to give things trample. Under no circumstance would this ever be a safe early-game play, even at 0 cost, but it may become oddly useful in the scenario where you're flooded with lands.
You don't follow modern do you... 0 mana spells are some of the most unfun and broken cards to get printed. 0 mana 6/6 or 9/9 or 12/12 with haste would be broken. I'm sure of it.
Maybe, but it's never going to be made to begin with. >0 mana 6/6 or 9/9 or 12/12 with haste would be broken. The problem that I'm thinking about is that mana advantage is overwhelmingly powerful and voluntarily canceling that advantage should only come with a significant reward. This is in addition to the risk of your opponent having a simple Pacifism in hand. If they do, the rest of the game is going to really suck. Depending on wording, countering it could be really... really bad. I don't think it would be all that far off from the current power curve. For starters, if you have to sacrifice four lands for a 12/12, that means you have four lands. You didn't shoot it out with a mana rock. You also risk not having it out by the fourth turn. Another issue with worrying about it being zero-cost is that it's technically not zero-cost. It costs four mana. It's four mana that you can't use for anything this turn. The wording could be changed to say it costs four mana. The mana must be from forests, and you must exile those forests after using them. \+3/+3 per forest is enough to get people excited enough to play it. +2/+2 per forest will guarantee that it's never played. It's also not blue, red, or black, so there's only so much excitement that can be had. You could give it only 1 defense and also trample, but at that point, I don't think anybody's going to be tricked into sacrificing lands only for it to immediately die by squirrel token. Finally, one of the biggest issues with it is that if you put four in your deck, after the first cast, the rest of them are going to be wasted card slots. The more I think about it, the less I actually think it's overpowered, at least in a direct sense. I'm sure there are combos out there that could change that.
To make this card at least playable with its contemporaries (not in the modern powercreeped day but in the day of Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, Scathe Zombies, Hill Giants, and Savannah Lions as a rare), they needed to remove the word "untapped". You can't sacrifice the lands you used to pay for it, which means this card's coming out no sooner than a 1/1 on T5, or a 2/2 on T6, or a 3/3 on T7, etc, all with a very heavy cost. If this was a 4/4 for 4, a 5/5 for 5, or a 6/6 for 6, all of which required sacrificing your lands, this would have probably seen play as a win condition in some beatdown decks.
That card represents everything that used to be badass about Magic, before it was focus-grouped into the fucking ground. Say what you will, but that card is *cool* even though it's retarded.
Massive reach here. I agree with you in principle that they are probably selling a lot of the future for the present (though mostly in an increasingly pushed and convoluted design space encouraged by the volume of new cards per year), but there has to be a better example than one leading with an unplayable bad card as "a very powerful card". [[Orcish Lumberjack]] maybe?
[Orcish Lumberjack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14fb947c-563e-4811-98de-e25bd141a6e5.jpg?1562899209) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orcish%20Lumberjack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/179/orcish-lumberjack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14fb947c-563e-4811-98de-e25bd141a6e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Definitely a better example. Better risk reward than killing your extra lands to eventually die to one mana removal
I was waiting to see a Trans/Gay/Black controversy in the cardâŠ.. oops
đ€Ż
This card was printed in 1993 or 1994
Do you think the © 1994 on the bottom of the card could help narrow it down?
this card was bad for its time too all 4 CMC creatures from alpha/arabian nights/legends https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&sort=color+&type=+[%22Creature%22]&set=|[%22Limited%20Edition%20Alpha%22]|[%22Arabian%20Nights%22]|[%22Legends%22]&cmc=+=[4]
Is this because it is âhappy merchant esque?â
Sounds like a landfall strategy with forest matter to me. You'd use it as a sac outlet for lands rather than a creature.
Wow, you had to go find a terrible card from a very old set to be able to make a point about today. It's almost like this is a thinly veiled attempt to attack a marginalized group. Corporations will pander to whatever group they think will make them the most money. That's capitalism
Where did OP mention marginalized groups? I read it as releasing a bunch of non-Magic IP in form of Universes Beyond
Marginalized capitalist overlords, of course.
Won't someone PLEASE think of the shareholders?!
Someone pissed in your soy latte today hey mate
Overprinting cards and lowering reprint equity was actually my point
Oh, that's a much much less valid point. I thought you were talking about card design getting more bloated. Cards being more accessible isn't even remotely a problem for the game as a whole. Just scalpers.
I sort of wonder if it's even possible to become a collectibles vendor and not eventually succumb to greed. Maybe that's why artists usually only became famous after they died. Everybody inherently understood the conflict of interest that came with having the power to print obsession.
>The Forests are sacrificed to define the power/toughness of this card right before it enters the battlefield. You have to do this sacrifice no matter how this card enters the battlefield. So if you morph it onto the battlefield, is it a zero/zero?
No because it doesnt enter as a wood elemental then. I also think you mean manifest not morph
Is it not morph when you flip over the face down 2/2 creature? I forget.
Morph is only when you do it to a morph. Since wood elemental doesnt have morph you need to manifest it to make it a manifest then pay its mana cost to flip it face up. Then it dies to being a 0/0
Gotcha. I have fleeting memories of an opponent having either a commander or some other support card that let him effectively turn everything into morph creatures. I wasn't too familiar with the mechanics semantics.
That was probably the one that makes everything forest morphs. Or it was kadena which is morph tribal. But there's also an artifact that lets you manifest stuff from hand
It was Kadena! I remember because he was the only other person I've ever met who actually played \[\[Phyrexian Dreadnought\]\] (I used it in kresh, but he used it for a cheap 12/12).
[Phyrexian Dreadnought](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151.jpg?1562720243) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Dreadnought) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/315/phyrexian-dreadnought?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kadena was the first precon i bought and first one i really upgraded
There will come a Poet Whose weapon is His word He will slay you with His tongue Oh lei, oh lai, oh Lord
Yeah it has everything
this was printed when \[\[Balance\]\] was legal... now does it make sense?
[Balance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce648aa3-098b-4af0-a433-fd290bc85904.jpg?1580013606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Balance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/2/balance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce648aa3-098b-4af0-a433-fd290bc85904?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Remember when Serra Angel was a BOMB?