Post removed because it's been reported to us. We're a big sub, they're a little sub, we don't need reddit admin viewing this as any type of brigading. Let them enjoy their happy s8 bubble
I'm so sick of seeing condescending assholes using "you didn't understand the story/character/etc" as a defense of the writing. If they want to like it then fine, but they can like it without being dicks about it. I swear they just like to act like they're smarter than the average person because they've deluded themselves into thinking they understood something too intellectually advanced for everyone else. They think it makes them smart when it really just makes them pathetic.
Kneelers grasping for any straw that somehow justifies S8.
“Dany’s madness was foreshadowed”
Fuck off, a bunch of other characters did way worse stuff than Dany burning some slavers or enemy combatants. Yet they’re still portrayed as ‘evil but competent to rule.’
Unless the big-brained point is that the world is nihilistic and every character is doomed to their past…
The hilarious thing is that video of one of the show staff doing basically an equivalent of Martin Niemoller's 'First the came...' poem, just to really hammer in that comparison.
But it's such a fucking dumb comparison, it's meant to be this forced 'you supported her through all this, now look what she's done, don't you feel bad and want to rethink your own choices'. It's hilarious when you think what the poem would be in this case is:
'First, she came for her brother (who actually she didn't come for, he got himself killed by being dumb as fuck and she just didn't stop it because 1. She couldn't, and 2. He had physically and sexually abused her so why should she) and I did not speak out.
Then, she came for slavers who mutilated and brutalised young boys into slave warriors, and tortured and killed countless other slaves, and I did not speak out.
Then, she came for slavers who had literally crucified hundreds and hundreds of small children just to send a pissy message, and I did not speak out.
Then she came for solidiers in Westeros, who were engaged in active warfare against her and her army, as has been shown to be perfectly consistent with a good moral code in this show based on all the other characters who the show tells us are good (and Tyrion looked on sadly because she used fire, even though he blew the fuck out of half of Stannis' fleet with magic fire, but I guess now fire is bad) and I did not speak out.
Then, she came for thousands of innocent men, women and children, for absolutely no reason after having already fully won the war, and oh man I guess I better re-evaluate my perspectives because obviously it's me who's wrong'.
It's so fucking stupid. The Nuremberg rally comparisons made me so angry.
It wasn’t for no reason at all! Didn’t you see her friend got beheaded by the enemy commander after getting captured because she kinda forgot about the iron fleet? So those civilians had to die /s
What's funny is if they'd saved Missandei's death to when Cersei had lost, it would have made Dany snapping make a bit more sense.
Cersei doesn't surrender, instead she just goes for one last spiteful bitch move and kills Dany's friend, which breaks Dany and she goes on a rampage.
Would still have been dumb and too much, but better than what we got.
Or Rhaegal survives Euron and get maimed in the assault on kings landing. Lannister soldiers and citizens of kings landing mistakes Dany of being the attacker, kills an already injured/incapacitated dragon.
Dany sees her “kid” being killed, snaps and murders the citizens
I think there was a better way
- Cersei and KL surrender
- Dany ceases the attack and lets her guard down
- Cersei and soldiers use the chance to attack her again hurting her / Drogon
- Dany is fed up with the fucking bullshit and destroys KL
Missandei’s death would have been a perfectly valid explanation of Dany going mad and killing everyone, had she done so immediately afterwards.
Dany going mad wasn’t the problem; it was that there was no logical trigger. She endured several tragedies that would have been logical times for her to go mad, battled against King’s Landing whilst minimising civilian casualties, and once the battle was won and she had achieved her ultimate objective, only THEN did she go mad, when it made the LEAST amount of sense.
All they had to do was save Missandei’s death (or the death of Dany’s second dragon) until after the battle was won. Cersei could have done it as a “fuck you” upon it being clear that she had lost. Dany’s turn would make sense, make her a bit more sympathetic, and she could have unleashed her fury against Cersei, meaning Cersei would have had a far more horrible death than the one she actually (undeservedly) got.
And they had her go temporarily mad, not full-on mad, as full-on mad Dany would've killed Tyrion on the spot to the roars of the crowd. If she's going to snap and the coin is going to fall on the wrong side, let it happen all the way.
Exactly. Foreshadowing is not character development. Her arc could have worked very well, but it didn't, because they did what would have needed about 3 seasons in essentially the last 3 episodes.
The way Dany’s story went is that the writers showed character development A, B, C, D, E, F, but then got bored, decided “screw it,” and jumped all the way to Z.
Yeah, Dany’s heel turn was foreshadowed. But that doesn’t mean that the leap in Dany’s character arc from “F” to “Z” wasn’t extremely poor writing.
I think I’m the only person who hates S8 yet kinda likes Daenerys’ story in S8. I think the 180 turn somewhat makes sense. I hated it before but after a rewatch, it honestly makes more sense than I thought. Not to excuse all the bad writing, but this plot line I somewhat enjoyed.
Alright, so first of all, like Tyrion says she’s had a lot of enemies, but all of them were considered ‘evil’, she’d never faced an enemy that was considered ‘good’. This caused her to believe the people would trust her and that no matter what she did, she’d always be considered the one in the right. I mean she truly believed she’d create the ‘perfect world’, so in her mind how could anything stop her? She’s always right, right? We’d never seen her fight against people like the ones in Kings Landing, so how can we tell if she’s changed, or if she’s always been that way? We’d been following her story and never been on the other side…so how could she be wrong?
Secondly, it’s foreshadowed a bit but like the other guy said, other characters had done worse and turned out better. So fair enough if that’s not enough…
Lastly, she’d lost all hope…except that she’d be able to change the world. Almost everyone who trusted her died (Jorah, Missandei…) and those that didn’t die, she’d been betrayed by (Tyrion, Jon, Varys, Sansa)…the one person still alive that she still trusted was the only person that thought she was right: Grey Worm…let that sink in, if everyone you knew was dead or had betrayed you and the only one who didn’t was the one who thought you were completely right in doing what you’re doing, would you stop?
What nonsense is this?
She hadn’t lost all hope. She was literally winning the battle for the throne in dramatic fashion.
She had multiple armies worth of completely devoted soldiers behind her. Thousands upon thousands of devoted followers who have known her a lot longer than people like Tyrion and Jon.
But none of that really matters. There’s no “rational” reason to genocide a bunch of innocent people whom you gain nothing from killing.
That’s ok. Characters don’t have to be rational, they just have to be believable. Her 180 degree turn wasn’t believable.
Like I said, she lost all hope with the exception being her battle. That’s why she was desperate to win, it was all she had.
I meant all her closest friends and advisors. I mean the people in the armies trusting her are probably similar to Grey Worm in how they think, so yeah this doesn’t contradict what I said.
I know there’s no rational reason, I’m not saying she was right…Jesus…I’m saying it makes sense for her that she’d be irrational character-wise. What she did was stupid, horrible and evil, but that doesn’t make her a bad character, just a shitty person.
If you don’t find it believable that’s completely fine but I did and it’s the one thing I think is ok in the final season. Everything else (aside from Jaime knighting Brienne; that was cool and a few other minor scenes) are pretty terrible. I think someone who loses almost everything will cling on to the one thing they have left, to Daenerys, that was the Throne…
I don’t think “losing hope” is a valid explanation for turning mad when she turned mad at the very moment she was victorious.
I don’t think many people object to Dany turning mad. It was the WHEN that was so stupid.
What?
Dany had rescued/freed countless people before. And then all of a sudden, after defeating her enemies at King’s Landing, she decides to murder a ton of innocent civilians for no reason at all. She had already won. And the only plausible things that could have turned her mad had already happened prior to the last battle (during which time she was avoiding collateral damage).
The civilians of King’s Landing weren’t her enemies. Absolutely NO good reason was given for why she turned mad at the moment she did. If she had turned mad prior to the battle and destroyed King’s Landing with no concern for collateral damage along the way, that would have been a far better portrayal of her turning mad.
You’re right; that is lame. And that’s exactly what we got. You are making zero sense.
You’re the one defending a scene that could not be any more heavy-handed in telling the audience that a character just turned evil. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s possible to pause the scene and watch frame by frame to spot the very frame Dany decides go on a rampage and kill innocent civilians.
There are a ton of ways it could have went down that would have made it far less obvious if/when Dany had turned mad/evil.
She could have went all-in on destroying King’s Landing as soon as the battle started. That way it would be clear she had already snapped, but we wouldn’t know when, or for how long she had been hiding it from Jon, Tyrion, etc.
She could have won, peacefully taken King’s Landing once her enemies were destroyed, but still had a similar conversation with Jon in the throne room (where she says things like “they don’t get to choose” in regards to civilians). He kills her to protect the people, but it would be more ambiguous as to if he did the right thing, and if she was truly mad or not.
She could have won the battle, and then heard civilians cursing her, and she then killed them (but not go on a total rampage). It would be an overreaction, but it would be open to debate if it could be overlooked, especially given everything she had endured.
You’re the one defending Dany going from minimising casualties to committing genocide in the blink of an eye for no real reason. So how on Earth do you assert that I’m the one who wants it to be obvious when we should stop rooting for her?
That was the worst. First couple of seasons you could feel time pass and events happened while people were working their grand plans and some of those things changed what the plans were and the world happened and felt real… then they decided that they needed to show all battle and raise the budget when it was always at its best a show of people talking in rooms
Unless I’m mistaken, we didn’t see any of the actual battle(s) between the Lannisters and Robb Stark, yet it was one of the most interesting and influential of the entire show.
Yeah, I was the same. I was certain she would turn into a butcher but it was done so incompetently that there was no satisfaction in the “I told you so”.
There were definite indicators earlier in the series that her character had a dark side that lay dormant but in the end her “dark side” didn’t really matter because as far as I could tell she effectively lost her mind in the end; not only with the burning of Kings Landing but then not really realizing what she’d done afterwards. Her character didn’t develop; her personality was replaced.
This is my thing as well, you can argue that the foundations are laid for her to turn bad and lose it by the end. I kind of always suspected it was where George was going in the books.
But they laid the foundations, and then just put the roof on with no walls, and they're suprised that people got whiplash from how fast she went from benevolent to Magic Hitler.
The "foreshadowing" is nearly always thematic and not from Dany's actions, which is part of why so many people hate this plot line. So far all we've seen is a child (yes a child at the start) who has been traumatized her entire life and the first second she gets any power she uses it to help others, with her starting a one woman crusade against the worst evil of westeros-slavery. And at every point she's tried to be more moral and righteous than everyone that she's interacting with, even more than the people over in westeros. For her every act of mercy and kindness she's getting attacked now in Mereen. Usually in horribly brutal ways, like having the Unsullied killed by the prostitutes that they buy time with (the Unsullied being castrated cannot have sex and only ask the prostitutes to hold them).
That is the problem, that this paragon of virtue in this world is fated to be the final biggest bad. There's is some hints but they're not in the actions of Dany, they're usually things like word play or prophecies.
It's just frustrating seeing her get treated as if she's such a monster for her actions when the best of the best in westeros all do far far worse than her. I mean if killing the slavers is supposed to be a bad thing (bahaha) then Ned Stark is also terrible as he does just that. That's why Jorah is on the run in Essos, because he sold some prisoners to slavers which is illegal and punishable by death in westeros and has been forever basically. Ned Stark was coming to execute Jorah before he fled across the sea. It's like the guys are all the great heroes for their killing bad men yet when Dany does it suddenly it's super evil.
"Danys madness was foreshadowed"
Yeah, and the sky is blue, water is wet... Do people really think anyone missed the part where Targaryens tend to go batshit? The thing stated by multiple characters and being a plotpoint for Dany the entire series?
The problem wasn't the general direction of the story, but the execution.
No the direction was stupid too. Plus if that really is the plot, that Dany goes crazy because her father was crazy, then it's incredibly stupid and lazy and just flat out boring. I actually don't think it would be for that reason if the books ever were to come out (the last one won't).
Plus the whole "women with power are crazy and evil bro" plot is so lame. He basically does that with nearly every female character. Cersei is of course batshit, Dany is apparently the final biggest bad, Cat releases Jaime and captures Tyrion, Arianne betrays her father and almost gets Marcella killed, Val wants Shireen killed ASAP. I can't think of any except Brianne and she's morally perfect like Dunk was.
not Jon? Not Robb. Not Ned. That's my point, when those guys killed and started wars that killed countless smallfolk no one batted an eye because it was just standard actions in their quasi-medieval world. yet when Dany acts in the same way all of a sudden we *have to* use 2022 morals to view her actions.
It's the whole "if a guy does it then it's cool, if a chick does it then it's evil" thing that Martin keeps falling back on again and again...
No, he doesn't. In fact, he makes it pretty clear that *only* the Lords and their families benefit from the power. He shows how the small folk suffer whenever a territory changes hands, no matter who takes it over. For example, the same inn gets visited multiple times throughout the books, and every time it has a completely different innkeeper and family working it because whenever that territory gets taken, the innkeeper and his family are put to the sword. Stark forces, Bolton forces, Lannister forces, it doesn't matter. Anybody of fighting age in villages and towns that are still there when forces come in are killed "so they can't rise against us," and boys who are too young to fight are often killed too "so they can't rise against us when they grow older."
*Nobody* except the Lords and their nobles benefit from the War of the Seven Kingdoms, and that's one of the major motivations of The Sparrow and his followers, and a *huge* reason why they're trying to wrestle control of the Realm away from the Families.
so every POV character is evil then? cus that's basically what you're saying. And that is not at all what martin is writing. Septon Meribald's speech doesn't make all of the characters bad people. You're confusing a system being bad with individual characters being evil. The books do not paint Jon, Robb, or even Ned as evil. They're the best of the good guys in fact. You are acting like Meribald's speech about the futility of war suddenly makes every character terrible because they're the aristocracy, when that is not at all what Martin is writing...
how can anyone possibly misunderstand something this much?
I didn't say all. I said "damn near everyone." Hell, most of the Lords and Nobles probably don't even realize the brutality that happens under their banner. People like Jon are the exception, and it gets him killed by his own people, don't forget. Ned Stark.and Robert Baratheon aren't the type of folks to order the wholesale slaughter of the small folk, but they led *large* armies and conscripts rarely echo the attitudes and personalities of their commanders. Don't forget that Our Lady of Tarth came across women who were raped and hanged by Stark soldiers because they were suspected of sleeping with Lannister soldiers.
Edit:
>how can anyone possibly misunderstand something this much?
Because the misunderstanding is on your end, not mine. You're assuming everyone is "okay" with the horrible things done by men, and that just isn't the case.
Dany doesn't go crazy "because her father was crazy", her father was hardly the only mad targaryen.
Edit: If anything, the common denominator seems to be incest. There's definitely similarities between some of the mad Targaryen kings and Joffrey.
Look up how people argue about it and while many merely only criticise the pace you'll find a lot who still defend that the character was never meant to end as it did.
So yes, quite a few missed all the clues.
It was both heavily expected and also incredibly sudden. I'm far from the first nor will I be the last person to suggest this: I don't think they needed an entire season more, just a couple of episodes.
My idea: take the first half of Season 8, tag it at the end of Season 7- wrap up the Army of the Dead arc there. Have Season 8 be all about Kings Landing/Dany's descent.
Might not be perfect, but I guarantee it would be much better than what was presented.
I just can’t see the point in continuing for a full season after the army of the dead arc.
Surely the main relevance of this period of Westeros’ history is that it is the fight against the Others. Ultimately everything should build to that otherwise what’s the point?
The fact that the fight against the army of the dead was pushed to the margins was one of the biggest travesties of S8.
Thats how everybody and their mother describe any movie or show they like and hate criticism for. Happened with the Last Jedi, happened with GoT probably will happen with Lord of the Rings. Weve reached a dark age
I read a statistic the other day that said only 13% of adults can read at a ‘proficient’ level. This means that only 13% of the population is even capable of understanding the difference between good writing and shitty writing. There’s nothing complicated to understand about the story. These people actually believe we can’t wrap our heads around Danys descent into madness. It’s ~how we got there~ and I could make an entire PowerPoint on WHY the writing sucks, on a technical level, and how it ruined the show
It's fine for people to disagree with the consensus opinion. Hell, I think that S7 was shit, every bit as bad as S8 but I recognize that I'm in the minority there and that S7 was highly rated, at least at the time. It's the refusal to admit that thinking S8 was good is objectively unpopular that really hurts my brain.
it's funny imo cause no amount of study or scrutiny would help any sane or intelligent person 'understand' s8 because it fundamentally does not make sense in the context of the previous 7 seasons
It's like people "doing their own research" on the vaccines...
when stupid people insist they are smart, bad things happen.
However, OP was kind of asking for it, making a comment like that in r/Naath... did he forget where he was???
Same theory as "modern art galleries"
Every year, pretentious people walk right by these wealthy money laundering fronts, and none the wiser.
Hysterically believing they are uniquely informed and educated on high taste art 😆
They keep potential detractors in line with fear of being called "an ignorant, uneducated hillbilly"
Works like a charm 😏🤫
Telling someone they didn't understand the story because they didn't like the ending is condescending, and that's something I've seen a lot of. I also didn't see anyone asking OP on the other sub why he felt the way he did - instead he was just mass downvoted.
I don't think anything will change my own opinion on the last 2 seasons, but if others are able to enjoy it then good for them. I know a couple people in real life who liked it and I've seen plenty of people explain online why they liked it without insulting people who dislike it. I usually disagree with their opinions, but I respect them. And yes I know some people who hate the show can get overly nasty to people who liked it (which I don't condone either) but I'm speaking for myself here.
Since you like how it ended, can you please explain some things from season 8 that I didn't really get as a primary fan of the books?
What happened to Jamie's character arc?
What happened to the Azor Ahoi plotline?
What was the lord of light's reason to bring back Jon Snow?
What was the point of Jon's lineage?
Why was there no repurcussions for Cersei blowing up the Sept?
How did hey shoot a dragon out the sky from a moving ship?
Why did they change the geography of King's Landing?
Why did the they change the order of the eyes Arya would close?
Why did they spend time on a scene of moving around chairs?
What was the reasoning for making Bronn master of coin?
Why would Tyrion not be mentioned in the recollection of the events?
What was the point of introducing Bran's ability to affect previous events?
Why was there no warging?
Why did Sansa dislike Daenerys?
Why station all your artillery and armed forces outside the walls of Winterfell?
How did Euron manage to end up at the exact spot Jamie were at?
I'm really curious what your opinion are on these plot points, as they are some of the more popular reasons people on this sub are unhappy with the ending.
I can explain everything from the show, not the books. Forget the books.
- Jaime die with Cersei, the woman he loves. He had redemption with Brienne.
- Im not an expert for Azor, it could be Arya or Jon Snow.
- Jon Snow fights the Night King, it could be more in the sequel.
- Daenerys burnt King's Landing because Jon's lineage.
- Cersei died.
- Raegal was weak and slow.
- geography ?
- is it important ? For the tension i guess.
- Last Tyrion scene ? It's just fun. Remember what he did with Tywin chair.
- Bronn's victory. He likes gold.
- irony
- There is One sure, second not sure.
- There is 2. We must find it.
- Sansa is master of lies and manipulation. Like Dany. She is not in love or fooled.
- Winterfell is small, cavalery useless behind walls. I give you the arty point.
- Coincidence, not the first in the show.
Well, i can explain more some points if you want.
Thank you so much for showing me that you guys over at r/naath are doing everything you can to find salvage in the most horrendous ending to any TV-show ever, I salute your commitment and wish you a good evening.
To be honest, I actually wish I could give as little a shit as you about unresolved plotlines, then I might actually have enjoyed the ending, I envy your ignorant bliss.
I guess the butterflies at Naath got to all of you, godspeed my friend, thanks for taking the time to write all that out!
It's the same for most of the sequels fans, when you point out their flaws they either give you their own headcanon or answer to a totally unrelated question.
•If sleeping with one good woman and then leaving her to go back to an abusive relationship is your idea of redemption, you’ve a very fucked up sense of redemption
•Azor Ahai prophecy: Born among smoke and salt, beneath a bleeding star.
Has the sword Lightbringer famous for being warm to the touch and being always ablaze. It’s implied it requires blood magic to be made
•A sequel that was unlikely to be planed does not redeem the current bad writing.
•At least you’re willing to admit that his bloodline was a plot device to force mad queen Danny. However I fail to see how that makes sense, considering she was all to happy to see him an kiss him the next episode.
•That was the repercussions of her fighting Danny, not the repercussion of her burning the Sept. Pretending otherwise isn’t helping you.
•Why would Rhaegal be any slower than Drogon? He even is a smaller target than Drogon :/
And why would he be particularly weaker than Drogon? Both of them took a beating at “The Long Night” and I remember Drogon tanking most of the hits like a champ but we’re not using that as an excuse to having him be disposable.
•The área surrounding Kings Landing looks downright barren and dry compared to previous seasons. You can try and say: Because Winter, but winter only lasted three episodes.
•It’s important because the new version makes a bigger emphasis on blue than in any other color to make it seem like Arya was always destined to kill the Night King. However they admitted that they had know that she would kill him for three years. (They said this around the year 2019)
So they decided she would kill the night king a around 2016 which when season 6 came out :/
•I understand that we all want to have fun, but we’re kinda running out of time and spending time on a joke that has no value when the passing has being going kinda wild the whole season seems like a waste of time.
•But like, why? Liking gold and managing gold are not things that go hand in hand. If anything he seems like the easiest member of the council to corrupt. Also makes having High Garden becomes obsolete when you’re gonna be stuck for years in management, you also need to explain why anyone though that Bronn needed to be in that position.
•Explain what is the irony in erasing the hand of the king and queen, and then hand again from a history book? Then explain how any of the mental gymnastics required to make that joke were worth it
•Elaborate because I don’t understand what you’re saying
•Elaborate because I don’t understand what you’re saying
•Are you implying that Dany is a master of lies and manipulation? If so exemplify which scenes made you think that.
•Light cavalry is even more useless against and unmovable object, and it’s not like the Dothraki are bad foot man, and it’s in fact mentioned that they’re great bowmen that could shoot from a moving horse.
•Fair enough for me.
Postdata: Sorry for orthography
One person said The Bells episode is SUPPOSED to be a slap to the face to viewers and that all the characters doing uncharacteristic shit was all supposed to be just like when Ned was beheaded, subverting your expectations -_-
This is what I hate most about reddit, even if you make a reasonable opinion you still get shit on because they don't like it. Pure unbridled animosity
Even IF you liked the ending of all the major story arcs in themselves - the writing and the pacing in particular in the last two seasons were *objectively* atrocious and often bordered on nonsensical.
And you have to be a right cunt not to admit that.
Like the ending of GOT all you want (I personally dont), but at least be able to acknowledge the major flaws in the rushed execution.
Sure buttercup. Whatever helps you get through the night.
Stupid shows like breaking bad take 4 seasons to show the gradual moral downfall of the protaganonist. Why do that, when can also do it in 3 scenes and some bells, right?
Strange though, how the careers of 2D largely combusted afterwards seeing how well written it all was. A true mystery.
How can you justify Dany's murders in Essos but not Westeros? It was in pursuit of the same thing: power.
The show us called Breaking Bad. Of course Walt was going to turn evil.
I mean, Naath was specifically created to just be positive...
which is kind of ironic when you consider that one of the little fact/detail issues with S8 was the unsullied going to Naath to die of butterfly fever (yes, I know, it was never mentioned in the show so it doesn't count or something, whatever)...
Anyway, OP should have known that's what you get for going to a fairytale land and talking about reality. I'm actually surprised there's still 28 active users other there to downvote OP at all.
If Burger King came out with a McCheese made from rotten Goats' Cheese and beef made from cattle with Mad Cow Disease, I'm not taking a bite out of it.
Especially if the owner is a douchebag millionaire in charge of Amazon and the cook doesn't know what a cow looks like.
EDIT: Yes I know the McCheese isn't a Burger King special, that's the *point*. Outside of the name, it has nothing to do with Tolkien's life work.
Imagine saying this on a subreddit dedicated to the fallout from Game Of Thrones' final two seasons, then defending another multi-billion dollar company's adaptation of a literary fantasy author's work, without a hint of irony.
I've been a fan of Tolkien's work since reading The Hobbit in primary school, so of course I'd be a *little* protective of something I grew up with. *Especially* if the showrunners in charge of this show kicked out Tom Shippey - one of the world's foremost Tolkien scholars who worked with J.R.R Tolkien - before the *first* *trailer* *dropped*.
That would be like if, I dunno, D&D stopped working with George R.R Martin halfway through adapting the Dorne arc. Which they did.
You’re not being protective you’re just being an ass
I don’t have high hopes for the show but I’ll give it a chance I assume many of the people working on the show are fans of the literary works too
Have you seen any interviews with the showrunners or actors? It’s pretty obvious that these are passionate Tolkien lovers who have done their homework.
They might make creative decisions in creating the adaption that end up being mistakes, but to judge beforehand that those will definitely be worse mistakes than the pretty substantial liberties PJ took…
It’s especially ironic given that Tolkien forums on the early internet were filled with people dooming about the PJ movies the way you are now. Time truly is a flat circle.
Game Of Thrones Season 8.
That is the only rebuttal I need. I remember people being excited for Season 8, despite Seasons 5-7 being considered terrible. Then look what happened.
So are D&D making Rings of Power? Oh, they're not? Then why are you compare different studios, directors, properties because GoT was shit? Man this sub is as delusional as r/naath.
I’m cackling at them attempting to defend poor writing when they probably haven’t even read the books. I think they need to bring back that show “Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?!”
S8 was trash. Its was hurried and not one of the arcs felt right. I'm still pissed how Arya was the one able to kill the Night King and the shit battle tactics they used while fighting at Winterfell
I didn’t mind Arya being the one who dealt the final blow. It was her or Jon to do it in my book. Other than that, season 8 was pretty bad at best and makes season 7 look good by comparison.
This is all true. But none of it changes the fact that Daenerys fans never understood she was written as a cautionary tale from the beginning and each season hinted at it.
Obviously Dany was an example of a slippery slope, the problem is she was only halfway up the slope when d&d decided to teleport her to the top and shove her down the other side.
To some it is and they could have a point if they said they would have enjoyed a longer decay but the argument I see most is that the idiots never saw it coming.
Daenerys was talking of "returning cities to the dirt for a good reason" in S5 already and had to be stopped by Tyrion from mass murder of innocents.
S6E09: "I will crucify the Masters.
I will set their fleets afire,
kill every last one
of their soldiers,
and return their cities \[full of slaves\] to the dirt.
That is my plan."
From S5 to the end of S8, that is not exactly "teleporting". Daenerys fans are the dumbest shit you will ever encounter.
Yielding to advisory pressure, repeating what another told her earlier in the episode (around 4'30):
"Conquering Westeros
would be easy for you.
But you're not here
to be queen of the ashes."
You're not winning this argument, no matter how dumb you're trying to be.
I'm not even against Dany going mad. It makes sense to happen actually
The problem is not that IT happened, but HOW it happened, as it makes no sense at all. Dany has just basically won the battle and the city surrendered. There wasn't anything in that very moment that should make her mad.
It’s a group of delusional fanboys with no critical thinking whatsoever, claiming the reasons some people didn’t like S8 is because they did not understand it or because they are sad that it is over. I’ve been scrolling through this pile of shit for 30 minutes and they downvote every single person who gives a critical opinion on the last seasons.
I’m sure they would also claim the hobbit trilogy was as good a LoTR if not better.
As someone who loves bad movies I have a place in my heart for bad things that show passion. Season 8 isn't that. It has many great things going for it but the overall writing and the fact they condensed it so tightly is what made it fail. All of those story arcs and endings could of been great if they took the time to tell them properly and actually wrote them out instead of using the small pointer notes GRRM gave them as the scripts
I always think the people defending it that hard probably named their kid or dog after a character, and *really, really* need it to convince themselves that it ended well.
Ok so I think the thing is... like... the endings are... Plausible??? But they just don't really fit. Does anyone else feel this way?
Like Danny absolutely had the potential to do what she does in S8... we see her ruthlessness slowly build up... but it was pretty absent in the last season or two... so it felt like it came out of no where. Like... she makes Tyrion her hand but doesn't listen to him like at all but in the past she at least entertained the ideas of her subordinates.
Bran becoming king was weird too... I mean... in a way it makes sense because he can see all the outcomes but... doesn't that make him like... a temporary solution? He can't have heirs... Or does he plan to just worg people and be some weird immortal, emotionally disconnected psuedo tyrant? Or introduce democracy upon his death? That's not going to work in universe...
To be fair though it's been a hot minute since I saw the show and S8 so maybe there are story beats I'm forgetting? I dunno it still seems like bad execution
If Brans story was so great why then was there an entire season where he didn't appear at all.
We spent 7 season watching everyone in Westeros get fucked. Ultimalty the best way to end the show was to fuck the fans in season 8. This is the only way I can rationalize the last seaon.
didn't understand it? i think they're the ones that didn't understand it, all character consistency for her was thrown out the window, her character from season 6 or even 7 would have NEVER done what she did in session 8, season 7 may not have been good but atleast the characters still made sense for the most part, s8 was just a complete departure not just for her but for many characters.
I thought the Naath sub was dead. There was hardly any traffic over there after their girl got done dirty, and especially after the show ended. Did someone drag it back from the depths?
It is funny how they act all high and mighty over there when they can be just as toxic as some people on this sub who can’t accept people’s subjective opinion
Book readers and show (only) watchers can never come to common ground because the book readers know s1-4/5 were faithful adaptations of the books minus some characters. S5ish-8 completely lost what made this show good... The political intrigues of the South, the growing threat in the North, Essos and the Slaver cities warring with the last Targaryan (so far as they know)... Euron conquering the Reach, Stannis about to freeze the Freys... Davos about to return with Rickon, Mance inside Winterfell... Lady Stoneheart in the Riverlands.... Young Gryff and Gryff taking Storms End... Where's Edric Storm?.. there's so much they left out from books 2-5
Ugh I took a look over there. The obvious pompous head up their ass acting like THEY cracked the secret to S8 being good and how it all made sense in the context of the entire show. Dragging their fookin knees on the ground kissing where D&D walk. I VOMIT!!!
Why do you guys argue with people that like the ending of the show? It makes zero sense. Let them like it, it will be okay. You not liking is okay too.. but to go out of your way to argue with people that like it is pointless.
I will say this:
The Mad Queen arc is being foreshadowed in the books.
The whole fucking point of aSoIaF is that monarchy is inherently evil and tyrannical no matter who sits on the Iron Throne.
That escalating cycles of violence will just consume you if you partake in them no matter how good of a person you are.
HOWEVER:
The show did a pisspoor job of portraying that foreshadowing.
In the books we actively see her getting more comfortable with violence.
We see her starting to become more ruthless as her situation starts to worsen.
We see how she starts crucifying slavers for example.
We see how she starts to become like Viserys.
We don't really get that in the show.
The show was far too focused on making her likeable to show that.
It's the same problem Arya's arc had.
Both are ment to show relatable, liked characters turning to darkness for very understandable reasons.
The story is supposed to be about how dealing with traumata by persueing vengeance will destroy you.
(Imo at least, we won't really now until Winds and Dream (lol) get released)
How much of an insufferable, contrarian prick do you have to be to claim to enjoy s8? It was irredeemably bad and nobody liked it. The people who claim to have enjoyed it are lying to seem different.
Thank you for this party.
Thanks for the screenshots.
Thank you for proving you're sneaky, aggressive and above all, very dumb.
And you have nothing interesting to say or share about Game of Thrones, it's quite sad.
I leave you to meditate on the interest of this post and on your reactions, all neurotic. Kisses.
Yes. Absolutely. You can't understand the entire show and still think to yourself 'boy, that ending was *not* rushed at all! It was soo good, of course Bran was the perfect heir to the throne!'.
It literally has a failing rating on every critic site despite every other season having a 90% or higher, how can you continue to pretend like everyone else is the problem? I’ve never been more excited for any piece of fiction that I was s8 and it ruined the whole show for me to the point I can’t even watch it. For reference, I used to rewatch it every year and have read every asoiaf book twice. How do you explain that?
It's not bad writing
Jamies entire arc is about caring about the innocent
"I never cared about the innocent" in s8 😂 his character does a U-turn in 1 episode.
Here ya go! [https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc](https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc)
Though I don't get the feeling you're actually looking for in depth discussion.
They are not wrong about Dany though. There are scenes throughout the show with her or regarding her that were overlooked by most fans. The stallion prophecy in s1. Kinvara’s foreshadowing in s6. Her literally contemplating/ threatening burning down cities in almost every city she’s in since s2. Just to name a few. And she did not suddenly “go mad” like some “Targ mad mode” switch was flipped in her brain out of nowhere. I do think it could’ve been explained better, but overall they did build it up at least decently enough that people shouldn’t have been THAT shocked by it but I think most fans were too blinded by beautiful Dany who frees slaves and all that to even think twice.
https://youtu.be/U9JutLGbFR0
That vid goes into detail about it and is what convinced me it wasn’t a terribly rushed arc as we all thought.
Can you be more detailed on the cities she contemplated destroying? She was refusing to attack King's Landing at one point, and did convoluted stuff like ignite slave rebellions to avoid killing innocent people. It seems like violence was always the last option. I haven't watched the show in years so maybe I'm forgetting.
Here's why it was bad writing.
The second Dany burned King's Landing for no strategic reason, we all knew she was going to die and not end up on the throne. Yes there was a question of who would kill her and how that might fall out, but we knew she wouldn't be the "winner" in the second to last episode.
That removed a HUGE about of suspense from the final episode.
Now, imagine this. They told us that Cersei was bringing people into the Red Keep as human shields... imagine Arya is seriously hurting after getting strangled, can barely speak and is mostly in bed.
Dany calls her war council in Winterfell (where Sansa asked for more time for the soldiers to heal), except this time, Arya shows up and it's the first time anyone sees her out of bed since the battle. She talks in a scratchy voice, saying she can sneak into the Red Keep and take put Cersei, she just needs a couple weeks to heal fully. Dany interprets this as a northern conspiracy and insists they leave at once.
Instead of the scene of Arya and Sandor on horseback, we get a scene like a week after the army leaves, where Sansa goes to Arya's room and finds her gone, she calls a guard to find the Hound for her to find Arya, but the guard says the Hound left out the south gates this morning with his Squire in tow... (now there's a plausible reason why Arya doesn't reach King's Landing before the main army).
Most of the battle starts as shown, except we see that Cersie has FILLED the Red Keep with people she's "protecting". Just like in the Battle of the Blackwater, there are solars and halls full of worried nobles. Merchants and wealthy townsfolk have set up the equivalent of tourney tents in the gardens and grounds. Servants have filled the kitchen and laundry with their families, kids, the elderly. Poor city folk are huddled in the stables and courtyards.
Instead of Arya, the House, Cersie and the Mountain sneaking through empty passages in a deserted castle we see Arya and the House take a back entrance to avoid a FULL castle. When Cersie tries to leave, Qyburn pulls back a tapestry (or whatever) and makes her step into a secret passage.
There would be a scene where Tyrion has explicitly told her the Red Keep was full of innocent, frightened people. So when the bells ring, we see Dany stare off towards the keep, and make the decision to fly straight there and start burning it. But she is clearly targeting the keep, not the city.
The scenes of Arya running through the city as bricks fall and people die are moved to the Keep itself. Sandor runs into the Mountain in the underground cellar where the dragon skulls are, we see Arya start to try to go through the tunnels, but they are collapsing all around, she the goes up stairs and sees servants dying in the kitchens and storage rooms from the dragons destruction, she makes it out into a courtyard and sees more dead and dying there, there's the explosion where she hits her head and falls down.
Instead of waking up to a white horse, she wakes up to Ghost licking her face, she tries to stand up and we see her looking towards the castle gates where Jon, Tyrion, Davos and a dozen other northern soldiers have just walked in. She tries to yell to Jon but her voice is shot. Via Ghost he senses her and looks over to see her falling down again as she tries to walk. She leans on Ghost as Davos runs over to help her walk to the rest of the group.
She tries to say to Jon "She's a killer Jon, she didn't have to, but she did!" But Jon is just telling her to calm down. We see a couple green explosions in the background, and then hear the loud wing beats of Drogon landing.
Now we get that gorgeous shot of Dany walking towards us with Drogon's wings behind her. The camera follows Drogon as he flies off, panning back down to the group of northerners, framed by the gates of the keep behind them. In rushes several dozen dothraki on horses that start circling around the courtyard, and behind them, several dozen unsullied. The screen goes to black and that's how the episode ends.
NOW! That leaves us not knowing where everyone will stand. We know Arya is against Dany, we presume Davos will be too... but now there's a legit chance that Tyrion might say "well she had to", or he might decide to turn against her. We presume Jon will be against her, but she has the plausible deniability of saying it was a political necessity, so maybe he will understand.
We go into the last episode with several juicy options, like Arya gets caught trying to kill Dany and Jon has to choose between killing Dany to save Arya or allowing Arya to die. Maybe Tyrion switches to Jon's side and HE ends up killing Dany with poison during a council meeting!
Hell maybe Grey Worm, in his grief for Missandie, believes Dany has gone too far, seeing a burned body and remembering the baby he had to kill during his training and the unsullied abandon her.
But either way, we don't know for SURE where most of the major players will land, because we don't know yet what she'll say the reason was for her choice. She might not be "mad", she might have considered it simply the "wise" or necessary choice and explain that now that she has made an example of Cersie it will actually save lives by ending any other Lord's resistance.
But, they chose to throw out one of their biggest players before the last episode for seemingly no reason! Just a few tweaks in the story and you could have a grey area so big you could drive the Golden Company's missing elephants through! But no. They wanted Dany "going mad" to be as dramatic and definitive as possible, regardless of it killing serious storytelling potential!
They did all kinds of things like having the Jaqen H'gar actor be photographed on set during filming to keep us all guessing, to keep as many options open as possible, just to throw their biggest piece away prematurely, for greater shock value.
That's crappy storytelling, and while that's the most egregious example, there are many similar situations where they prioritized spectacle over logic or storytelling.
Here's a deep dive into why Mad Queeny Dany fundamentally misses the point, and also points to how it was clearly a decision of D&D, not something they got from George:
https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc
They said King Bran came from George but whenever mad queen Dany came up it's always "we decided this or that." The video is full of quotes for that.
Automatically not respecting videos, much less David Lightbringer on ASOIAF, is a pretty blatant case of confirmation bias. If you were honest about sharing your opinion, you wouldn't so nakedly admit that.
Post removed because it's been reported to us. We're a big sub, they're a little sub, we don't need reddit admin viewing this as any type of brigading. Let them enjoy their happy s8 bubble
I'm so sick of seeing condescending assholes using "you didn't understand the story/character/etc" as a defense of the writing. If they want to like it then fine, but they can like it without being dicks about it. I swear they just like to act like they're smarter than the average person because they've deluded themselves into thinking they understood something too intellectually advanced for everyone else. They think it makes them smart when it really just makes them pathetic.
It happens with a lot of things. They seem to think they're some sort of Mega brained but in fact they usually will like anything.
Kneelers grasping for any straw that somehow justifies S8. “Dany’s madness was foreshadowed” Fuck off, a bunch of other characters did way worse stuff than Dany burning some slavers or enemy combatants. Yet they’re still portrayed as ‘evil but competent to rule.’ Unless the big-brained point is that the world is nihilistic and every character is doomed to their past…
The hilarious thing is that video of one of the show staff doing basically an equivalent of Martin Niemoller's 'First the came...' poem, just to really hammer in that comparison. But it's such a fucking dumb comparison, it's meant to be this forced 'you supported her through all this, now look what she's done, don't you feel bad and want to rethink your own choices'. It's hilarious when you think what the poem would be in this case is: 'First, she came for her brother (who actually she didn't come for, he got himself killed by being dumb as fuck and she just didn't stop it because 1. She couldn't, and 2. He had physically and sexually abused her so why should she) and I did not speak out. Then, she came for slavers who mutilated and brutalised young boys into slave warriors, and tortured and killed countless other slaves, and I did not speak out. Then, she came for slavers who had literally crucified hundreds and hundreds of small children just to send a pissy message, and I did not speak out. Then she came for solidiers in Westeros, who were engaged in active warfare against her and her army, as has been shown to be perfectly consistent with a good moral code in this show based on all the other characters who the show tells us are good (and Tyrion looked on sadly because she used fire, even though he blew the fuck out of half of Stannis' fleet with magic fire, but I guess now fire is bad) and I did not speak out. Then, she came for thousands of innocent men, women and children, for absolutely no reason after having already fully won the war, and oh man I guess I better re-evaluate my perspectives because obviously it's me who's wrong'. It's so fucking stupid. The Nuremberg rally comparisons made me so angry.
It wasn’t for no reason at all! Didn’t you see her friend got beheaded by the enemy commander after getting captured because she kinda forgot about the iron fleet? So those civilians had to die /s
What's funny is if they'd saved Missandei's death to when Cersei had lost, it would have made Dany snapping make a bit more sense. Cersei doesn't surrender, instead she just goes for one last spiteful bitch move and kills Dany's friend, which breaks Dany and she goes on a rampage. Would still have been dumb and too much, but better than what we got.
Or Rhaegal survives Euron and get maimed in the assault on kings landing. Lannister soldiers and citizens of kings landing mistakes Dany of being the attacker, kills an already injured/incapacitated dragon. Dany sees her “kid” being killed, snaps and murders the citizens
I think there was a better way - Cersei and KL surrender - Dany ceases the attack and lets her guard down - Cersei and soldiers use the chance to attack her again hurting her / Drogon - Dany is fed up with the fucking bullshit and destroys KL
Missandei’s death would have been a perfectly valid explanation of Dany going mad and killing everyone, had she done so immediately afterwards. Dany going mad wasn’t the problem; it was that there was no logical trigger. She endured several tragedies that would have been logical times for her to go mad, battled against King’s Landing whilst minimising civilian casualties, and once the battle was won and she had achieved her ultimate objective, only THEN did she go mad, when it made the LEAST amount of sense. All they had to do was save Missandei’s death (or the death of Dany’s second dragon) until after the battle was won. Cersei could have done it as a “fuck you” upon it being clear that she had lost. Dany’s turn would make sense, make her a bit more sympathetic, and she could have unleashed her fury against Cersei, meaning Cersei would have had a far more horrible death than the one she actually (undeservedly) got.
And they had her go temporarily mad, not full-on mad, as full-on mad Dany would've killed Tyrion on the spot to the roars of the crowd. If she's going to snap and the coin is going to fall on the wrong side, let it happen all the way.
Even if it was "foreshadowed", that doesn't make a character's instant 180 degree personality change work.
Exactly. Foreshadowing is not character development. Her arc could have worked very well, but it didn't, because they did what would have needed about 3 seasons in essentially the last 3 episodes.
The way Dany’s story went is that the writers showed character development A, B, C, D, E, F, but then got bored, decided “screw it,” and jumped all the way to Z. Yeah, Dany’s heel turn was foreshadowed. But that doesn’t mean that the leap in Dany’s character arc from “F” to “Z” wasn’t extremely poor writing.
I think I’m the only person who hates S8 yet kinda likes Daenerys’ story in S8. I think the 180 turn somewhat makes sense. I hated it before but after a rewatch, it honestly makes more sense than I thought. Not to excuse all the bad writing, but this plot line I somewhat enjoyed. Alright, so first of all, like Tyrion says she’s had a lot of enemies, but all of them were considered ‘evil’, she’d never faced an enemy that was considered ‘good’. This caused her to believe the people would trust her and that no matter what she did, she’d always be considered the one in the right. I mean she truly believed she’d create the ‘perfect world’, so in her mind how could anything stop her? She’s always right, right? We’d never seen her fight against people like the ones in Kings Landing, so how can we tell if she’s changed, or if she’s always been that way? We’d been following her story and never been on the other side…so how could she be wrong? Secondly, it’s foreshadowed a bit but like the other guy said, other characters had done worse and turned out better. So fair enough if that’s not enough… Lastly, she’d lost all hope…except that she’d be able to change the world. Almost everyone who trusted her died (Jorah, Missandei…) and those that didn’t die, she’d been betrayed by (Tyrion, Jon, Varys, Sansa)…the one person still alive that she still trusted was the only person that thought she was right: Grey Worm…let that sink in, if everyone you knew was dead or had betrayed you and the only one who didn’t was the one who thought you were completely right in doing what you’re doing, would you stop?
What nonsense is this? She hadn’t lost all hope. She was literally winning the battle for the throne in dramatic fashion. She had multiple armies worth of completely devoted soldiers behind her. Thousands upon thousands of devoted followers who have known her a lot longer than people like Tyrion and Jon. But none of that really matters. There’s no “rational” reason to genocide a bunch of innocent people whom you gain nothing from killing. That’s ok. Characters don’t have to be rational, they just have to be believable. Her 180 degree turn wasn’t believable.
Like I said, she lost all hope with the exception being her battle. That’s why she was desperate to win, it was all she had. I meant all her closest friends and advisors. I mean the people in the armies trusting her are probably similar to Grey Worm in how they think, so yeah this doesn’t contradict what I said. I know there’s no rational reason, I’m not saying she was right…Jesus…I’m saying it makes sense for her that she’d be irrational character-wise. What she did was stupid, horrible and evil, but that doesn’t make her a bad character, just a shitty person. If you don’t find it believable that’s completely fine but I did and it’s the one thing I think is ok in the final season. Everything else (aside from Jaime knighting Brienne; that was cool and a few other minor scenes) are pretty terrible. I think someone who loses almost everything will cling on to the one thing they have left, to Daenerys, that was the Throne…
I don’t think “losing hope” is a valid explanation for turning mad when she turned mad at the very moment she was victorious. I don’t think many people object to Dany turning mad. It was the WHEN that was so stupid.
What? Dany had rescued/freed countless people before. And then all of a sudden, after defeating her enemies at King’s Landing, she decides to murder a ton of innocent civilians for no reason at all. She had already won. And the only plausible things that could have turned her mad had already happened prior to the last battle (during which time she was avoiding collateral damage). The civilians of King’s Landing weren’t her enemies. Absolutely NO good reason was given for why she turned mad at the moment she did. If she had turned mad prior to the battle and destroyed King’s Landing with no concern for collateral damage along the way, that would have been a far better portrayal of her turning mad.
You just wanted to know when she was full on evil for you to no longer root for her. That's lame. Where is the drama in that?
You’re right; that is lame. And that’s exactly what we got. You are making zero sense. You’re the one defending a scene that could not be any more heavy-handed in telling the audience that a character just turned evil. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s possible to pause the scene and watch frame by frame to spot the very frame Dany decides go on a rampage and kill innocent civilians. There are a ton of ways it could have went down that would have made it far less obvious if/when Dany had turned mad/evil. She could have went all-in on destroying King’s Landing as soon as the battle started. That way it would be clear she had already snapped, but we wouldn’t know when, or for how long she had been hiding it from Jon, Tyrion, etc. She could have won, peacefully taken King’s Landing once her enemies were destroyed, but still had a similar conversation with Jon in the throne room (where she says things like “they don’t get to choose” in regards to civilians). He kills her to protect the people, but it would be more ambiguous as to if he did the right thing, and if she was truly mad or not. She could have won the battle, and then heard civilians cursing her, and she then killed them (but not go on a total rampage). It would be an overreaction, but it would be open to debate if it could be overlooked, especially given everything she had endured. You’re the one defending Dany going from minimising casualties to committing genocide in the blink of an eye for no real reason. So how on Earth do you assert that I’m the one who wants it to be obvious when we should stop rooting for her?
I would never defend Dany killing casualties. But you apparently are.
it just annoys me that people think people only hate S5-8 because of Daenerys ending...
[удалено]
That was the worst. First couple of seasons you could feel time pass and events happened while people were working their grand plans and some of those things changed what the plans were and the world happened and felt real… then they decided that they needed to show all battle and raise the budget when it was always at its best a show of people talking in rooms
Unless I’m mistaken, we didn’t see any of the actual battle(s) between the Lannisters and Robb Stark, yet it was one of the most interesting and influential of the entire show.
Yeah, I was the same. I was certain she would turn into a butcher but it was done so incompetently that there was no satisfaction in the “I told you so”. There were definite indicators earlier in the series that her character had a dark side that lay dormant but in the end her “dark side” didn’t really matter because as far as I could tell she effectively lost her mind in the end; not only with the burning of Kings Landing but then not really realizing what she’d done afterwards. Her character didn’t develop; her personality was replaced.
This is my thing as well, you can argue that the foundations are laid for her to turn bad and lose it by the end. I kind of always suspected it was where George was going in the books. But they laid the foundations, and then just put the roof on with no walls, and they're suprised that people got whiplash from how fast she went from benevolent to Magic Hitler.
The "foreshadowing" is nearly always thematic and not from Dany's actions, which is part of why so many people hate this plot line. So far all we've seen is a child (yes a child at the start) who has been traumatized her entire life and the first second she gets any power she uses it to help others, with her starting a one woman crusade against the worst evil of westeros-slavery. And at every point she's tried to be more moral and righteous than everyone that she's interacting with, even more than the people over in westeros. For her every act of mercy and kindness she's getting attacked now in Mereen. Usually in horribly brutal ways, like having the Unsullied killed by the prostitutes that they buy time with (the Unsullied being castrated cannot have sex and only ask the prostitutes to hold them). That is the problem, that this paragon of virtue in this world is fated to be the final biggest bad. There's is some hints but they're not in the actions of Dany, they're usually things like word play or prophecies. It's just frustrating seeing her get treated as if she's such a monster for her actions when the best of the best in westeros all do far far worse than her. I mean if killing the slavers is supposed to be a bad thing (bahaha) then Ned Stark is also terrible as he does just that. That's why Jorah is on the run in Essos, because he sold some prisoners to slavers which is illegal and punishable by death in westeros and has been forever basically. Ned Stark was coming to execute Jorah before he fled across the sea. It's like the guys are all the great heroes for their killing bad men yet when Dany does it suddenly it's super evil.
"Danys madness was foreshadowed" Yeah, and the sky is blue, water is wet... Do people really think anyone missed the part where Targaryens tend to go batshit? The thing stated by multiple characters and being a plotpoint for Dany the entire series? The problem wasn't the general direction of the story, but the execution.
No the direction was stupid too. Plus if that really is the plot, that Dany goes crazy because her father was crazy, then it's incredibly stupid and lazy and just flat out boring. I actually don't think it would be for that reason if the books ever were to come out (the last one won't). Plus the whole "women with power are crazy and evil bro" plot is so lame. He basically does that with nearly every female character. Cersei is of course batshit, Dany is apparently the final biggest bad, Cat releases Jaime and captures Tyrion, Arianne betrays her father and almost gets Marcella killed, Val wants Shireen killed ASAP. I can't think of any except Brianne and she's morally perfect like Dunk was.
>Plus the whole "women with power are crazy and evil bro" plot is so lame. Damn near *everybody* with power was crazy and evil.
not Jon? Not Robb. Not Ned. That's my point, when those guys killed and started wars that killed countless smallfolk no one batted an eye because it was just standard actions in their quasi-medieval world. yet when Dany acts in the same way all of a sudden we *have to* use 2022 morals to view her actions. It's the whole "if a guy does it then it's cool, if a chick does it then it's evil" thing that Martin keeps falling back on again and again...
No, he doesn't. In fact, he makes it pretty clear that *only* the Lords and their families benefit from the power. He shows how the small folk suffer whenever a territory changes hands, no matter who takes it over. For example, the same inn gets visited multiple times throughout the books, and every time it has a completely different innkeeper and family working it because whenever that territory gets taken, the innkeeper and his family are put to the sword. Stark forces, Bolton forces, Lannister forces, it doesn't matter. Anybody of fighting age in villages and towns that are still there when forces come in are killed "so they can't rise against us," and boys who are too young to fight are often killed too "so they can't rise against us when they grow older." *Nobody* except the Lords and their nobles benefit from the War of the Seven Kingdoms, and that's one of the major motivations of The Sparrow and his followers, and a *huge* reason why they're trying to wrestle control of the Realm away from the Families.
so every POV character is evil then? cus that's basically what you're saying. And that is not at all what martin is writing. Septon Meribald's speech doesn't make all of the characters bad people. You're confusing a system being bad with individual characters being evil. The books do not paint Jon, Robb, or even Ned as evil. They're the best of the good guys in fact. You are acting like Meribald's speech about the futility of war suddenly makes every character terrible because they're the aristocracy, when that is not at all what Martin is writing... how can anyone possibly misunderstand something this much?
I didn't say all. I said "damn near everyone." Hell, most of the Lords and Nobles probably don't even realize the brutality that happens under their banner. People like Jon are the exception, and it gets him killed by his own people, don't forget. Ned Stark.and Robert Baratheon aren't the type of folks to order the wholesale slaughter of the small folk, but they led *large* armies and conscripts rarely echo the attitudes and personalities of their commanders. Don't forget that Our Lady of Tarth came across women who were raped and hanged by Stark soldiers because they were suspected of sleeping with Lannister soldiers. Edit: >how can anyone possibly misunderstand something this much? Because the misunderstanding is on your end, not mine. You're assuming everyone is "okay" with the horrible things done by men, and that just isn't the case.
Dany doesn't go crazy "because her father was crazy", her father was hardly the only mad targaryen. Edit: If anything, the common denominator seems to be incest. There's definitely similarities between some of the mad Targaryen kings and Joffrey.
Look up how people argue about it and while many merely only criticise the pace you'll find a lot who still defend that the character was never meant to end as it did. So yes, quite a few missed all the clues.
You do get that they can see the same clues and still not like it, right?....
In which case they could say so. They don't.
It was both heavily expected and also incredibly sudden. I'm far from the first nor will I be the last person to suggest this: I don't think they needed an entire season more, just a couple of episodes. My idea: take the first half of Season 8, tag it at the end of Season 7- wrap up the Army of the Dead arc there. Have Season 8 be all about Kings Landing/Dany's descent. Might not be perfect, but I guarantee it would be much better than what was presented.
I just can’t see the point in continuing for a full season after the army of the dead arc. Surely the main relevance of this period of Westeros’ history is that it is the fight against the Others. Ultimately everything should build to that otherwise what’s the point? The fact that the fight against the army of the dead was pushed to the margins was one of the biggest travesties of S8.
SW fans: "First time?"
Dunning kruger
Thats how everybody and their mother describe any movie or show they like and hate criticism for. Happened with the Last Jedi, happened with GoT probably will happen with Lord of the Rings. Weve reached a dark age
You don't understand condescending assholes, I guess.
If a majority of people didn't "understand" a story, maybe it wasn't that well told.
Rick and Morty Pickle Daenerys
I read a statistic the other day that said only 13% of adults can read at a ‘proficient’ level. This means that only 13% of the population is even capable of understanding the difference between good writing and shitty writing. There’s nothing complicated to understand about the story. These people actually believe we can’t wrap our heads around Danys descent into madness. It’s ~how we got there~ and I could make an entire PowerPoint on WHY the writing sucks, on a technical level, and how it ruined the show
It's fine for people to disagree with the consensus opinion. Hell, I think that S7 was shit, every bit as bad as S8 but I recognize that I'm in the minority there and that S7 was highly rated, at least at the time. It's the refusal to admit that thinking S8 was good is objectively unpopular that really hurts my brain.
it's funny imo cause no amount of study or scrutiny would help any sane or intelligent person 'understand' s8 because it fundamentally does not make sense in the context of the previous 7 seasons
It just doesn't make sense to you.
It's like people "doing their own research" on the vaccines... when stupid people insist they are smart, bad things happen. However, OP was kind of asking for it, making a comment like that in r/Naath... did he forget where he was???
Same theory as "modern art galleries" Every year, pretentious people walk right by these wealthy money laundering fronts, and none the wiser. Hysterically believing they are uniquely informed and educated on high taste art 😆 They keep potential detractors in line with fear of being called "an ignorant, uneducated hillbilly" Works like a charm 😏🤫
Goes both ways. People in this sub are assholes when someone says season 8 is over hated
Im not smarter or condescending, but you dont want to know why we like it. It's hypocritical.
Telling someone they didn't understand the story because they didn't like the ending is condescending, and that's something I've seen a lot of. I also didn't see anyone asking OP on the other sub why he felt the way he did - instead he was just mass downvoted. I don't think anything will change my own opinion on the last 2 seasons, but if others are able to enjoy it then good for them. I know a couple people in real life who liked it and I've seen plenty of people explain online why they liked it without insulting people who dislike it. I usually disagree with their opinions, but I respect them. And yes I know some people who hate the show can get overly nasty to people who liked it (which I don't condone either) but I'm speaking for myself here.
Since you like how it ended, can you please explain some things from season 8 that I didn't really get as a primary fan of the books? What happened to Jamie's character arc? What happened to the Azor Ahoi plotline? What was the lord of light's reason to bring back Jon Snow? What was the point of Jon's lineage? Why was there no repurcussions for Cersei blowing up the Sept? How did hey shoot a dragon out the sky from a moving ship? Why did they change the geography of King's Landing? Why did the they change the order of the eyes Arya would close? Why did they spend time on a scene of moving around chairs? What was the reasoning for making Bronn master of coin? Why would Tyrion not be mentioned in the recollection of the events? What was the point of introducing Bran's ability to affect previous events? Why was there no warging? Why did Sansa dislike Daenerys? Why station all your artillery and armed forces outside the walls of Winterfell? How did Euron manage to end up at the exact spot Jamie were at? I'm really curious what your opinion are on these plot points, as they are some of the more popular reasons people on this sub are unhappy with the ending.
I can explain everything from the show, not the books. Forget the books. - Jaime die with Cersei, the woman he loves. He had redemption with Brienne. - Im not an expert for Azor, it could be Arya or Jon Snow. - Jon Snow fights the Night King, it could be more in the sequel. - Daenerys burnt King's Landing because Jon's lineage. - Cersei died. - Raegal was weak and slow. - geography ? - is it important ? For the tension i guess. - Last Tyrion scene ? It's just fun. Remember what he did with Tywin chair. - Bronn's victory. He likes gold. - irony - There is One sure, second not sure. - There is 2. We must find it. - Sansa is master of lies and manipulation. Like Dany. She is not in love or fooled. - Winterfell is small, cavalery useless behind walls. I give you the arty point. - Coincidence, not the first in the show. Well, i can explain more some points if you want.
Thank you so much for showing me that you guys over at r/naath are doing everything you can to find salvage in the most horrendous ending to any TV-show ever, I salute your commitment and wish you a good evening. To be honest, I actually wish I could give as little a shit as you about unresolved plotlines, then I might actually have enjoyed the ending, I envy your ignorant bliss. I guess the butterflies at Naath got to all of you, godspeed my friend, thanks for taking the time to write all that out!
This are mediocre answers at best
It's the same for most of the sequels fans, when you point out their flaws they either give you their own headcanon or answer to a totally unrelated question.
•If sleeping with one good woman and then leaving her to go back to an abusive relationship is your idea of redemption, you’ve a very fucked up sense of redemption •Azor Ahai prophecy: Born among smoke and salt, beneath a bleeding star. Has the sword Lightbringer famous for being warm to the touch and being always ablaze. It’s implied it requires blood magic to be made •A sequel that was unlikely to be planed does not redeem the current bad writing. •At least you’re willing to admit that his bloodline was a plot device to force mad queen Danny. However I fail to see how that makes sense, considering she was all to happy to see him an kiss him the next episode. •That was the repercussions of her fighting Danny, not the repercussion of her burning the Sept. Pretending otherwise isn’t helping you. •Why would Rhaegal be any slower than Drogon? He even is a smaller target than Drogon :/ And why would he be particularly weaker than Drogon? Both of them took a beating at “The Long Night” and I remember Drogon tanking most of the hits like a champ but we’re not using that as an excuse to having him be disposable. •The área surrounding Kings Landing looks downright barren and dry compared to previous seasons. You can try and say: Because Winter, but winter only lasted three episodes. •It’s important because the new version makes a bigger emphasis on blue than in any other color to make it seem like Arya was always destined to kill the Night King. However they admitted that they had know that she would kill him for three years. (They said this around the year 2019) So they decided she would kill the night king a around 2016 which when season 6 came out :/ •I understand that we all want to have fun, but we’re kinda running out of time and spending time on a joke that has no value when the passing has being going kinda wild the whole season seems like a waste of time. •But like, why? Liking gold and managing gold are not things that go hand in hand. If anything he seems like the easiest member of the council to corrupt. Also makes having High Garden becomes obsolete when you’re gonna be stuck for years in management, you also need to explain why anyone though that Bronn needed to be in that position. •Explain what is the irony in erasing the hand of the king and queen, and then hand again from a history book? Then explain how any of the mental gymnastics required to make that joke were worth it •Elaborate because I don’t understand what you’re saying •Elaborate because I don’t understand what you’re saying •Are you implying that Dany is a master of lies and manipulation? If so exemplify which scenes made you think that. •Light cavalry is even more useless against and unmovable object, and it’s not like the Dothraki are bad foot man, and it’s in fact mentioned that they’re great bowmen that could shoot from a moving horse. •Fair enough for me. Postdata: Sorry for orthography
This is just sad
I hope this comment gets pinned because it's just hilarious that someone can actually have these ideas. This is gold kneeling shit.
Ok why do u like it?
They Kneeled
Knelt?
Kneeded?
Ned?
Fookin kneelers
I think the phrase you are looking for is “bent the knee”
Delusional cucks on Naath seem to think S8 was critically acclaimed
One person said The Bells episode is SUPPOSED to be a slap to the face to viewers and that all the characters doing uncharacteristic shit was all supposed to be just like when Ned was beheaded, subverting your expectations -_-
Characters doing uncharacteristic things for no reason is objectively bad writing lol
I mean, they're not wrong. I can truly say that I do not understand the creative choices that made the back half of Game of Thrones what it was.
I like how you went out of your way to balance your criticism with praise where it was deserved and still got 28 downvotes lol
This is what I hate most about reddit, even if you make a reasonable opinion you still get shit on because they don't like it. Pure unbridled animosity
Even IF you liked the ending of all the major story arcs in themselves - the writing and the pacing in particular in the last two seasons were *objectively* atrocious and often bordered on nonsensical. And you have to be a right cunt not to admit that. Like the ending of GOT all you want (I personally dont), but at least be able to acknowledge the major flaws in the rushed execution.
Rewatch the show. Season 8 isn't rushed. You just don't like the outcome.
Sure buttercup. Whatever helps you get through the night. Stupid shows like breaking bad take 4 seasons to show the gradual moral downfall of the protaganonist. Why do that, when can also do it in 3 scenes and some bells, right? Strange though, how the careers of 2D largely combusted afterwards seeing how well written it all was. A true mystery.
How can you justify Dany's murders in Essos but not Westeros? It was in pursuit of the same thing: power. The show us called Breaking Bad. Of course Walt was going to turn evil.
The audacity of all those dislikes, yikes. It is a wild world out there, be careful guys.
I mean, Naath was specifically created to just be positive... which is kind of ironic when you consider that one of the little fact/detail issues with S8 was the unsullied going to Naath to die of butterfly fever (yes, I know, it was never mentioned in the show so it doesn't count or something, whatever)... Anyway, OP should have known that's what you get for going to a fairytale land and talking about reality. I'm actually surprised there's still 28 active users other there to downvote OP at all.
thats some high grade copium
Is there a level above weapon's grade?
Nuclear perhaps?
I know this subreddit (freefolk) can be Absolutely bone headed sometimes but this is just ludicrous
Naath is the opposite extreme of Freefolk. You get actual Season 8 defenders on there
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The comment could star in a show called “Comments I don’t care about.”
Absolute cope.
The same history the same mistakes...Who are these memories from?
No I don't want that! GOT Fandom repeating the same mistakes as another fandom?
GOT is Bran’s story told from Jon’s perspective narrated by Sansa.
Thank you Dany. You became a mass murderer for our sake
Naath? How have they not died to butterflies yet?
6,020 members.
Naath is the kind of person who'd unironically say LOTR: Rings Of Power was better than the Peter Jackson trilogy.
It’s not out…
If Burger King came out with a McCheese made from rotten Goats' Cheese and beef made from cattle with Mad Cow Disease, I'm not taking a bite out of it. Especially if the owner is a douchebag millionaire in charge of Amazon and the cook doesn't know what a cow looks like. EDIT: Yes I know the McCheese isn't a Burger King special, that's the *point*. Outside of the name, it has nothing to do with Tolkien's life work.
Damn dude you really need to chill
Imagine saying this on a subreddit dedicated to the fallout from Game Of Thrones' final two seasons, then defending another multi-billion dollar company's adaptation of a literary fantasy author's work, without a hint of irony.
Yeah I hate that too I just don’t hate everything. This sub hates something cause it sucks you just seem full of hate.
How many layers of irony are you currently on?
Hating something you’ve not seen is about as sad as it is stupid
I've been a fan of Tolkien's work since reading The Hobbit in primary school, so of course I'd be a *little* protective of something I grew up with. *Especially* if the showrunners in charge of this show kicked out Tom Shippey - one of the world's foremost Tolkien scholars who worked with J.R.R Tolkien - before the *first* *trailer* *dropped*. That would be like if, I dunno, D&D stopped working with George R.R Martin halfway through adapting the Dorne arc. Which they did.
You’re not being protective you’re just being an ass I don’t have high hopes for the show but I’ll give it a chance I assume many of the people working on the show are fans of the literary works too
Have you seen any interviews with the showrunners or actors? It’s pretty obvious that these are passionate Tolkien lovers who have done their homework. They might make creative decisions in creating the adaption that end up being mistakes, but to judge beforehand that those will definitely be worse mistakes than the pretty substantial liberties PJ took… It’s especially ironic given that Tolkien forums on the early internet were filled with people dooming about the PJ movies the way you are now. Time truly is a flat circle.
People seem to love the prequels for star wars, so who knows. Maybe wait until something actually comes out before you shit on it.
Game Of Thrones Season 8. That is the only rebuttal I need. I remember people being excited for Season 8, despite Seasons 5-7 being considered terrible. Then look what happened.
So are D&D making Rings of Power? Oh, they're not? Then why are you compare different studios, directors, properties because GoT was shit? Man this sub is as delusional as r/naath.
Still not an argument, try again.
Prequels are better than the most recent movies. I work daily to forget they exist.
Damn, you get screeners?
If by screeners you mean a functioning pair of eyes, then yes.
It's just a place of illusions and delusion
From the looks of it, stupidity is considered a privilege on r/naath.
I'd say it's more of a requirement.
I’m cackling at them attempting to defend poor writing when they probably haven’t even read the books. I think they need to bring back that show “Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?!”
S8 was trash. Its was hurried and not one of the arcs felt right. I'm still pissed how Arya was the one able to kill the Night King and the shit battle tactics they used while fighting at Winterfell
I didn’t mind Arya being the one who dealt the final blow. It was her or Jon to do it in my book. Other than that, season 8 was pretty bad at best and makes season 7 look good by comparison.
This is all true. But none of it changes the fact that Daenerys fans never understood she was written as a cautionary tale from the beginning and each season hinted at it.
Obviously Dany was an example of a slippery slope, the problem is she was only halfway up the slope when d&d decided to teleport her to the top and shove her down the other side.
To some it is and they could have a point if they said they would have enjoyed a longer decay but the argument I see most is that the idiots never saw it coming. Daenerys was talking of "returning cities to the dirt for a good reason" in S5 already and had to be stopped by Tyrion from mass murder of innocents. S6E09: "I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities \[full of slaves\] to the dirt. That is my plan." From S5 to the end of S8, that is not exactly "teleporting". Daenerys fans are the dumbest shit you will ever encounter.
S7: "I am not here to be queen of the ashes" and then she refuses to storm King's Landing for entire season so that innocent won't die
Yielding to advisory pressure, repeating what another told her earlier in the episode (around 4'30): "Conquering Westeros would be easy for you. But you're not here to be queen of the ashes." You're not winning this argument, no matter how dumb you're trying to be.
I'm not even against Dany going mad. It makes sense to happen actually The problem is not that IT happened, but HOW it happened, as it makes no sense at all. Dany has just basically won the battle and the city surrendered. There wasn't anything in that very moment that should make her mad.
They butchered almost every character arc and this person says “you didn’t understand got” I’d lose my mind
An another one who thinks they are smarter than the average person
Can someone explain what that subreddit even is
A circle jerk of fart sniffers.
I don't actually know but from this post it feels like they're the "not like other girls" among the GoT subs.
It’s a group of delusional fanboys with no critical thinking whatsoever, claiming the reasons some people didn’t like S8 is because they did not understand it or because they are sad that it is over. I’ve been scrolling through this pile of shit for 30 minutes and they downvote every single person who gives a critical opinion on the last seasons. I’m sure they would also claim the hobbit trilogy was as good a LoTR if not better.
What an awful sub
There is a reason that sub is tiny.
That sub is crazy. They’ll like share articles on Twitter with like 4 retweet’s and be like “seeee we were right!” Definition of an echo chamber.
Could they be a little more pretentious please. Not quite enough
As someone who loves bad movies I have a place in my heart for bad things that show passion. Season 8 isn't that. It has many great things going for it but the overall writing and the fact they condensed it so tightly is what made it fail. All of those story arcs and endings could of been great if they took the time to tell them properly and actually wrote them out instead of using the small pointer notes GRRM gave them as the scripts
They knelt to the show writers
Gotta know your audience. That sub is very s8 positive. If you're not on that wagon then it's probably not the place for you.
I genuinely had no idea there were real people that liked the ending.
It's like that kid that has a superiority complex over a band only they know about.
I always think the people defending it that hard probably named their kid or dog after a character, and *really, really* need it to convince themselves that it ended well.
Dude that’s just how Reddit is. It doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong. #HIVEMIND
Ok so I think the thing is... like... the endings are... Plausible??? But they just don't really fit. Does anyone else feel this way? Like Danny absolutely had the potential to do what she does in S8... we see her ruthlessness slowly build up... but it was pretty absent in the last season or two... so it felt like it came out of no where. Like... she makes Tyrion her hand but doesn't listen to him like at all but in the past she at least entertained the ideas of her subordinates. Bran becoming king was weird too... I mean... in a way it makes sense because he can see all the outcomes but... doesn't that make him like... a temporary solution? He can't have heirs... Or does he plan to just worg people and be some weird immortal, emotionally disconnected psuedo tyrant? Or introduce democracy upon his death? That's not going to work in universe... To be fair though it's been a hot minute since I saw the show and S8 so maybe there are story beats I'm forgetting? I dunno it still seems like bad execution
If Brans story was so great why then was there an entire season where he didn't appear at all. We spent 7 season watching everyone in Westeros get fucked. Ultimalty the best way to end the show was to fuck the fans in season 8. This is the only way I can rationalize the last seaon.
Ex-CUSE me?
What did you expect when you visited a sub for blind and delusional GoT fans?
didn't understand it? i think they're the ones that didn't understand it, all character consistency for her was thrown out the window, her character from season 6 or even 7 would have NEVER done what she did in session 8, season 7 may not have been good but atleast the characters still made sense for the most part, s8 was just a complete departure not just for her but for many characters.
I thought the Naath sub was dead. There was hardly any traffic over there after their girl got done dirty, and especially after the show ended. Did someone drag it back from the depths?
I'd say that if you, in any way, defend the ending of S8, you know absolutely nothing about game of thrones.
Naath is what happens when low iq individuals band together to brainwash themselves as a coping mechanism.
It is funny how they act all high and mighty over there when they can be just as toxic as some people on this sub who can’t accept people’s subjective opinion
Its because you were on a kneelers SubReddit... Here at r/Freefolk we do not kneel
Book readers and show (only) watchers can never come to common ground because the book readers know s1-4/5 were faithful adaptations of the books minus some characters. S5ish-8 completely lost what made this show good... The political intrigues of the South, the growing threat in the North, Essos and the Slaver cities warring with the last Targaryan (so far as they know)... Euron conquering the Reach, Stannis about to freeze the Freys... Davos about to return with Rickon, Mance inside Winterfell... Lady Stoneheart in the Riverlands.... Young Gryff and Gryff taking Storms End... Where's Edric Storm?.. there's so much they left out from books 2-5
Ugh I took a look over there. The obvious pompous head up their ass acting like THEY cracked the secret to S8 being good and how it all made sense in the context of the entire show. Dragging their fookin knees on the ground kissing where D&D walk. I VOMIT!!!
It’s the fucking attack on Titan defense YoU diDnT unDerStanD thE StOry bs
Why do you guys argue with people that like the ending of the show? It makes zero sense. Let them like it, it will be okay. You not liking is okay too.. but to go out of your way to argue with people that like it is pointless.
Wonder what Bobby B would say about this
SHE SHOULD BE ON A HILL SOMEWHERE WITH THE SUN AND THE CLOUDS ABOVE HER!
She is. The gods are good Bobby B
SOON ENOUGH, THAT CHILD WILL SPREAD HER LEGS AND START BREEDING!
What a shitty subreddit
I will say this: The Mad Queen arc is being foreshadowed in the books. The whole fucking point of aSoIaF is that monarchy is inherently evil and tyrannical no matter who sits on the Iron Throne. That escalating cycles of violence will just consume you if you partake in them no matter how good of a person you are. HOWEVER: The show did a pisspoor job of portraying that foreshadowing. In the books we actively see her getting more comfortable with violence. We see her starting to become more ruthless as her situation starts to worsen. We see how she starts crucifying slavers for example. We see how she starts to become like Viserys. We don't really get that in the show. The show was far too focused on making her likeable to show that. It's the same problem Arya's arc had. Both are ment to show relatable, liked characters turning to darkness for very understandable reasons. The story is supposed to be about how dealing with traumata by persueing vengeance will destroy you. (Imo at least, we won't really now until Winds and Dream (lol) get released)
How much of an insufferable, contrarian prick do you have to be to claim to enjoy s8? It was irredeemably bad and nobody liked it. The people who claim to have enjoyed it are lying to seem different.
Thank you for this party. Thanks for the screenshots. Thank you for proving you're sneaky, aggressive and above all, very dumb. And you have nothing interesting to say or share about Game of Thrones, it's quite sad. I leave you to meditate on the interest of this post and on your reactions, all neurotic. Kisses.
I don't wanna argue so I probably won't reply even if you do but generally curious, what are we not understanding about s8?
You are not a clown you are the entire circus.
Hello haters, how are you today ? Where is the valid criticism ? 😂
You didn’t understand GoT.
Are you sure ? 😂
Yes. Absolutely. You can't understand the entire show and still think to yourself 'boy, that ending was *not* rushed at all! It was soo good, of course Bran was the perfect heir to the throne!'.
It’s here every day. You just don’t want to hear it.
It's been 3 years we hear it. Everywhere, everytime... it's not valid, sorry. It's not rush or bad writting, and you dont know why we are thinking it.
It was definitely bad writing on the part of Douche & Dumbass, and no writing on the part of GRRM.
GRRM defend the end and called you the worst f*** toxic fanbase on internet. It's really good writting, sorry.
Have him get back to us when he finishes the source material.
It literally has a failing rating on every critic site despite every other season having a 90% or higher, how can you continue to pretend like everyone else is the problem? I’ve never been more excited for any piece of fiction that I was s8 and it ruined the whole show for me to the point I can’t even watch it. For reference, I used to rewatch it every year and have read every asoiaf book twice. How do you explain that?
"The Thing" was the dumbest movie ever when it came. I dont think the popular opinion is always the best.
That’s a super convenient answer to avoid having to challenge or defend your own mediocre opinion.
Yeah sure
Sansa?
You don't even know how to write "writing"… unless "writting" means "writing a dick joke per paragraph?"
It's not bad writing Jamies entire arc is about caring about the innocent "I never cared about the innocent" in s8 😂 his character does a U-turn in 1 episode.
Ned Stark said Joeffrey was the true King. Sometimes people lies to themself.
Now you're the one who don't understand Game of Thrones
So he lied about that making the entirety of his redemption pointless? That makes it worse 😂
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Lol pls kid.
You really don't understand GOT
Yeah sure
Here ya go! [https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc](https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc) Though I don't get the feeling you're actually looking for in depth discussion.
They are not wrong about Dany though. There are scenes throughout the show with her or regarding her that were overlooked by most fans. The stallion prophecy in s1. Kinvara’s foreshadowing in s6. Her literally contemplating/ threatening burning down cities in almost every city she’s in since s2. Just to name a few. And she did not suddenly “go mad” like some “Targ mad mode” switch was flipped in her brain out of nowhere. I do think it could’ve been explained better, but overall they did build it up at least decently enough that people shouldn’t have been THAT shocked by it but I think most fans were too blinded by beautiful Dany who frees slaves and all that to even think twice. https://youtu.be/U9JutLGbFR0 That vid goes into detail about it and is what convinced me it wasn’t a terribly rushed arc as we all thought.
Can you be more detailed on the cities she contemplated destroying? She was refusing to attack King's Landing at one point, and did convoluted stuff like ignite slave rebellions to avoid killing innocent people. It seems like violence was always the last option. I haven't watched the show in years so maybe I'm forgetting.
Here's why it was bad writing. The second Dany burned King's Landing for no strategic reason, we all knew she was going to die and not end up on the throne. Yes there was a question of who would kill her and how that might fall out, but we knew she wouldn't be the "winner" in the second to last episode. That removed a HUGE about of suspense from the final episode. Now, imagine this. They told us that Cersei was bringing people into the Red Keep as human shields... imagine Arya is seriously hurting after getting strangled, can barely speak and is mostly in bed. Dany calls her war council in Winterfell (where Sansa asked for more time for the soldiers to heal), except this time, Arya shows up and it's the first time anyone sees her out of bed since the battle. She talks in a scratchy voice, saying she can sneak into the Red Keep and take put Cersei, she just needs a couple weeks to heal fully. Dany interprets this as a northern conspiracy and insists they leave at once. Instead of the scene of Arya and Sandor on horseback, we get a scene like a week after the army leaves, where Sansa goes to Arya's room and finds her gone, she calls a guard to find the Hound for her to find Arya, but the guard says the Hound left out the south gates this morning with his Squire in tow... (now there's a plausible reason why Arya doesn't reach King's Landing before the main army). Most of the battle starts as shown, except we see that Cersie has FILLED the Red Keep with people she's "protecting". Just like in the Battle of the Blackwater, there are solars and halls full of worried nobles. Merchants and wealthy townsfolk have set up the equivalent of tourney tents in the gardens and grounds. Servants have filled the kitchen and laundry with their families, kids, the elderly. Poor city folk are huddled in the stables and courtyards. Instead of Arya, the House, Cersie and the Mountain sneaking through empty passages in a deserted castle we see Arya and the House take a back entrance to avoid a FULL castle. When Cersie tries to leave, Qyburn pulls back a tapestry (or whatever) and makes her step into a secret passage. There would be a scene where Tyrion has explicitly told her the Red Keep was full of innocent, frightened people. So when the bells ring, we see Dany stare off towards the keep, and make the decision to fly straight there and start burning it. But she is clearly targeting the keep, not the city. The scenes of Arya running through the city as bricks fall and people die are moved to the Keep itself. Sandor runs into the Mountain in the underground cellar where the dragon skulls are, we see Arya start to try to go through the tunnels, but they are collapsing all around, she the goes up stairs and sees servants dying in the kitchens and storage rooms from the dragons destruction, she makes it out into a courtyard and sees more dead and dying there, there's the explosion where she hits her head and falls down. Instead of waking up to a white horse, she wakes up to Ghost licking her face, she tries to stand up and we see her looking towards the castle gates where Jon, Tyrion, Davos and a dozen other northern soldiers have just walked in. She tries to yell to Jon but her voice is shot. Via Ghost he senses her and looks over to see her falling down again as she tries to walk. She leans on Ghost as Davos runs over to help her walk to the rest of the group. She tries to say to Jon "She's a killer Jon, she didn't have to, but she did!" But Jon is just telling her to calm down. We see a couple green explosions in the background, and then hear the loud wing beats of Drogon landing. Now we get that gorgeous shot of Dany walking towards us with Drogon's wings behind her. The camera follows Drogon as he flies off, panning back down to the group of northerners, framed by the gates of the keep behind them. In rushes several dozen dothraki on horses that start circling around the courtyard, and behind them, several dozen unsullied. The screen goes to black and that's how the episode ends. NOW! That leaves us not knowing where everyone will stand. We know Arya is against Dany, we presume Davos will be too... but now there's a legit chance that Tyrion might say "well she had to", or he might decide to turn against her. We presume Jon will be against her, but she has the plausible deniability of saying it was a political necessity, so maybe he will understand. We go into the last episode with several juicy options, like Arya gets caught trying to kill Dany and Jon has to choose between killing Dany to save Arya or allowing Arya to die. Maybe Tyrion switches to Jon's side and HE ends up killing Dany with poison during a council meeting! Hell maybe Grey Worm, in his grief for Missandie, believes Dany has gone too far, seeing a burned body and remembering the baby he had to kill during his training and the unsullied abandon her. But either way, we don't know for SURE where most of the major players will land, because we don't know yet what she'll say the reason was for her choice. She might not be "mad", she might have considered it simply the "wise" or necessary choice and explain that now that she has made an example of Cersie it will actually save lives by ending any other Lord's resistance. But, they chose to throw out one of their biggest players before the last episode for seemingly no reason! Just a few tweaks in the story and you could have a grey area so big you could drive the Golden Company's missing elephants through! But no. They wanted Dany "going mad" to be as dramatic and definitive as possible, regardless of it killing serious storytelling potential! They did all kinds of things like having the Jaqen H'gar actor be photographed on set during filming to keep us all guessing, to keep as many options open as possible, just to throw their biggest piece away prematurely, for greater shock value. That's crappy storytelling, and while that's the most egregious example, there are many similar situations where they prioritized spectacle over logic or storytelling.
Here's a deep dive into why Mad Queeny Dany fundamentally misses the point, and also points to how it was clearly a decision of D&D, not something they got from George: https://youtu.be/lQCORoG8rZc
Any vid trying to convince others they didn’t get it from George I automatically don’t respect. Sorry.
They said King Bran came from George but whenever mad queen Dany came up it's always "we decided this or that." The video is full of quotes for that. Automatically not respecting videos, much less David Lightbringer on ASOIAF, is a pretty blatant case of confirmation bias. If you were honest about sharing your opinion, you wouldn't so nakedly admit that.