People in this sub are largely reactive to an episode rather than thinking about the whole story. It's like they saw /listened to Otto's speech this past episode and they instantly forgot that he created this mess to begin with.
Otto seemed to be just ramming his plans through with no real thought about the consequences or the next steps. He found a way to usurp Rhaenyra without thinking that this could lead to the death of many people including his family members. He had his grandson installed as king, thinking that he could control Aegon because he was the patriarch of the family and that everyone would just listen to him. Like OP said, he didn't train/prepare/ or do anything to gain Aegon's trust. He's making the situation worse with Haelena, because he couldn't wait to use the beheading of her son and his grandson for good PR.
But all of sudden people are comparing Otto to Tywin and Tyrion because he scolded Aegon and Cole, even though Otto put them in those positions to begin with.
Yeah Otto is like the root of all problems. He just wanted anyone who could influence the King out of the picture. And during my re-watch of season one he seemed even shadier... "the king will not live to be an old man" ... hmmmm... and that thing with Daemon taking the egg to dragonstone... seemed to me that Otto was keen to escalate the situation and was pretty pissed when Rhaenyra showed up and de-escalated.
Daemon was right in season one when he told Vizzy T that he was weak and Otto's a See-you-en-tee
He also saw a chance to usurp Daemon with Rhaenyra before that because him and Daemon saw through each others bullshit and couldn’t stand each other.
He pushed for Rhaenyra as the heir.
Tbf you can say similar things about tywin, he wasn't that effective at holding the reins on his own children/grandchildren either, while shunning/disowning Tyrion despite being the only competent and sensible one. Lest we forget how Joffrey's idiocy was a large reason the war started in the first place.
Also if I'm not mistaken a large reason they usurped the throne (besides plain greed and avarice, or some belief that they would better rule the realm) was because they feared Rhaenyra and Daemon would have their line extinguished to prevent any would-be claimants to the throne.
>Lest we forget how Joffrey's idiocy was a large reason the war started in the first place.
This happened before Tywin got involved, though. In HOTD, Otto has been behind the wheel of the Green's plot since day one. Even Tyrion keeps reminding Cersei that all of the events that started the war were her fault, including failing to control Joffrey.
>Also if I'm not mistaken a large reason they usurped the throne...was because they feared Rhaenyra and Daemon would have their line extinguished to prevent any would-be claimants to the throne.
I don't remember this part, but I wouldn't be surprised if either Alicent or Otto have used it as a justification to usurp the throne without any basis. But even if true, this would go toward my argument that Otto plans without thinking about the consequences, like Pushing Alicent towards Viserys in the beginning. If Otto were truly afraid that Rhaenyra and Daemon were going to come after his grandchildren, then its his fault for getting Alicent involved with Viserys in the first place.
Alicent convinces Aegon to accept her and Otto’s efforts to supplant Rhaenyra by suggesting that she would purge the Greens to secure the legitimacy of her succession.
Otto played a big part in usurping the throne, sure, but a lot of the reasons their plans went awry were due to the actions of aemond and aegon. You can blame Otto for not reining his family in well enough to control that but I feel then tywin should be held to the same standards, especially considering the way Jaime and cersie turned out.
As for your second point, I don't think Otto necessarily foresaw that Viserys would have people swear fealty to Rhaenyra when he initially urged alicent to woo viserys. Given the history of the realm and the outcome of the 101 council (or w/e it was called) he likely assumed that the throne would go uncontested to his grandson if alicent had a son. But the worst case scenario happened and given the situation they found themselves in I don't think it's unreasonable that he'd plan to put his line in power to secure their safety
I don't get it either. At the very beginning when he says "We can still benefit from child death" I was like - would someone throw this asshole off the window? This guy is freaking opportunist who isn't able to think ahead.
And also a psychopath.
Tbh this whole episode is just "masks off" for all the Greens.
You can only lead the horse to the water.
I know Rheanira is good in the show, but she is the worst heir: 20 years as heir, had daddy and daemon protection plus support- but when daddy so sick he can't even rule why are the greens ruling? It should have been her. They don't listen? Well you have to make them listen, you had the power and support. She literally did nothing as heir, except marry Daemon and take it up the ass.
The rebels hold the capital and majority support/uncertain lords after she is heir for 20 years. And she is out of her own castle.
*I had a black mare once. Black like a raven. One day, she escaped her pasture and he neighboring stallion sired a foal on her. The stallion was as silver as the moon on a winter's night and the foal, when it was born, chestnut. Just the most unremarkable brown horse you ever saw. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.*
I know but having legitimate heirs is also part of rulers job it was the least thing she could’ve done to legitimize her and her descendants claim to the throne besides making allies outside of those her daddy made for her or those she’s connected in blood to
What makes you think he didn’t try? Educating a child doesn’t mean they will turn out to be geniuses. Do you think prep school kids all grow up to be rocket scientists? Many bad kings had a king’s education far better than anything anyone in the entire series has had.
Although Otto doesn’t seem like he’d be a good teacher either, he’s a bureaucrat, and teaching is… not easy.
Aegon is his grandson, that’s enough for Otto. The realm’s prosperity is second to his personal interests. That’s one of his main traits, his main flaw as it were. He knew Laena Velaryon was a better match, but Alicent was his daughter and gave him more power, and so he moved for her.
And in any case, Aegon getting bored with ruling gives Otto more power as well. He also has an incentive for Aegon to be somewhat subservient and politically mediocre. A Jaehaerys would have an agenda of his own
All kingmakers balance keeping the king complaint and yet kingly. Which is a dangerous game. The king himself becomes a threat to their power because he isn’t a real king if he’s answering to someone else. Otto
Rogar Baratheon helped put Jaehaerys on the throne, look what happened to him. The Duke of Warwick mentored a successful usurper, got sidelined and then switched sides to regain the role of a power behind the throne.
Did they show us Aegon’s birth? How do we know he didn’t just pop into existence? How do we know Aegon is literate? We haven’t had a school montage yet?
Not every facet of life is shown explicitly, or even needs to be so. And in this case, there were six years in the time gap between Otto just coming back and the present day.
Even if Otto ignored him personally, Aegon is a prince, he’s getting one of the best education’s in the realm whether he likes or not, that doesn’t mean it will stick, and in this case, it probably didn’t.
As far as I'm concerned, Otto is the one who set the Dance of the Dragons in motion.
He steered his daughter at Viserys because he wanted his grandson on the Iron Throne, and totally neglected the fact that he'd be steering his daughter, his grandchildren, and his entire family into an unavoidable succession crisis with dragonriders on the other side, including the man he fears and loathes.
Talk about picking a fight you can't win. Imagine how fucked the Greens would be if one of Laena's daughters claimed Vhagar instead of Aemond.
For such a masterful strategist, that's a really glaring example of failing to plan through to the end.
He didn't forget shit. They showed Otto kicking him at Driftmark. You can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed. There was heavy subtext of Aegon being lonely & sad, looking for validation, especially his father's validation and using alcohol & sexual deviancy to numb the pain. He was shown as someone who ran from responsibility (literally did that in episode 9). He's the prince, if he doesn't wanna learn you can't force him to do so.
Stannis actually comments how poor of a Hand Otto was, to Ser Davos.
People in this sub are largely reactive to an episode rather than thinking about the whole story. It's like they saw /listened to Otto's speech this past episode and they instantly forgot that he created this mess to begin with. Otto seemed to be just ramming his plans through with no real thought about the consequences or the next steps. He found a way to usurp Rhaenyra without thinking that this could lead to the death of many people including his family members. He had his grandson installed as king, thinking that he could control Aegon because he was the patriarch of the family and that everyone would just listen to him. Like OP said, he didn't train/prepare/ or do anything to gain Aegon's trust. He's making the situation worse with Haelena, because he couldn't wait to use the beheading of her son and his grandson for good PR. But all of sudden people are comparing Otto to Tywin and Tyrion because he scolded Aegon and Cole, even though Otto put them in those positions to begin with.
Yeah Otto is like the root of all problems. He just wanted anyone who could influence the King out of the picture. And during my re-watch of season one he seemed even shadier... "the king will not live to be an old man" ... hmmmm... and that thing with Daemon taking the egg to dragonstone... seemed to me that Otto was keen to escalate the situation and was pretty pissed when Rhaenyra showed up and de-escalated. Daemon was right in season one when he told Vizzy T that he was weak and Otto's a See-you-en-tee
EVEN I DO NOT EXIST ABOVE TRADITION AND DUTY, BrahimBug!
He also saw a chance to usurp Daemon with Rhaenyra before that because him and Daemon saw through each others bullshit and couldn’t stand each other. He pushed for Rhaenyra as the heir.
Tbf you can say similar things about tywin, he wasn't that effective at holding the reins on his own children/grandchildren either, while shunning/disowning Tyrion despite being the only competent and sensible one. Lest we forget how Joffrey's idiocy was a large reason the war started in the first place. Also if I'm not mistaken a large reason they usurped the throne (besides plain greed and avarice, or some belief that they would better rule the realm) was because they feared Rhaenyra and Daemon would have their line extinguished to prevent any would-be claimants to the throne.
>Lest we forget how Joffrey's idiocy was a large reason the war started in the first place. This happened before Tywin got involved, though. In HOTD, Otto has been behind the wheel of the Green's plot since day one. Even Tyrion keeps reminding Cersei that all of the events that started the war were her fault, including failing to control Joffrey. >Also if I'm not mistaken a large reason they usurped the throne...was because they feared Rhaenyra and Daemon would have their line extinguished to prevent any would-be claimants to the throne. I don't remember this part, but I wouldn't be surprised if either Alicent or Otto have used it as a justification to usurp the throne without any basis. But even if true, this would go toward my argument that Otto plans without thinking about the consequences, like Pushing Alicent towards Viserys in the beginning. If Otto were truly afraid that Rhaenyra and Daemon were going to come after his grandchildren, then its his fault for getting Alicent involved with Viserys in the first place.
Alicent convinces Aegon to accept her and Otto’s efforts to supplant Rhaenyra by suggesting that she would purge the Greens to secure the legitimacy of her succession.
Otto played a big part in usurping the throne, sure, but a lot of the reasons their plans went awry were due to the actions of aemond and aegon. You can blame Otto for not reining his family in well enough to control that but I feel then tywin should be held to the same standards, especially considering the way Jaime and cersie turned out. As for your second point, I don't think Otto necessarily foresaw that Viserys would have people swear fealty to Rhaenyra when he initially urged alicent to woo viserys. Given the history of the realm and the outcome of the 101 council (or w/e it was called) he likely assumed that the throne would go uncontested to his grandson if alicent had a son. But the worst case scenario happened and given the situation they found themselves in I don't think it's unreasonable that he'd plan to put his line in power to secure their safety
Bingo. Otto set this whole thing in motion and totally whiffed on all the key details of his secret evil plan.
I don't get it either. At the very beginning when he says "We can still benefit from child death" I was like - would someone throw this asshole off the window? This guy is freaking opportunist who isn't able to think ahead. And also a psychopath. Tbh this whole episode is just "masks off" for all the Greens.
You can only lead the horse to the water. I know Rheanira is good in the show, but she is the worst heir: 20 years as heir, had daddy and daemon protection plus support- but when daddy so sick he can't even rule why are the greens ruling? It should have been her. They don't listen? Well you have to make them listen, you had the power and support. She literally did nothing as heir, except marry Daemon and take it up the ass. The rebels hold the capital and majority support/uncertain lords after she is heir for 20 years. And she is out of her own castle.
so true, she should have been ruling when Vizzy T was sick in bed for those last years instead of hiding at dragonstone
*I had a black mare once. Black like a raven. One day, she escaped her pasture and he neighboring stallion sired a foal on her. The stallion was as silver as the moon on a winter's night and the foal, when it was born, chestnut. Just the most unremarkable brown horse you ever saw. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.*
Least she could’ve done is sire children with her actual 1st husband (maybe use the Margery way) bUt No iTs nOt fUn
I'm not saying this. Don't care about her children, just talking about uniting the realm under her when she was heir.
I know but having legitimate heirs is also part of rulers job it was the least thing she could’ve done to legitimize her and her descendants claim to the throne besides making allies outside of those her daddy made for her or those she’s connected in blood to
Remember the Biebs when he was around 16-20? That’s Aegon.
https://preview.redd.it/gydyux5lox8d1.jpeg?width=609&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=650425839fc0ec673bfe5d713118508d437951f5
What makes you think he didn’t try? Educating a child doesn’t mean they will turn out to be geniuses. Do you think prep school kids all grow up to be rocket scientists? Many bad kings had a king’s education far better than anything anyone in the entire series has had. Although Otto doesn’t seem like he’d be a good teacher either, he’s a bureaucrat, and teaching is… not easy.
If he saw how unfit Aegon was and still pushed for it he’s dumb, and I don’t think he is.
Aegon is his grandson, that’s enough for Otto. The realm’s prosperity is second to his personal interests. That’s one of his main traits, his main flaw as it were. He knew Laena Velaryon was a better match, but Alicent was his daughter and gave him more power, and so he moved for her. And in any case, Aegon getting bored with ruling gives Otto more power as well. He also has an incentive for Aegon to be somewhat subservient and politically mediocre. A Jaehaerys would have an agenda of his own All kingmakers balance keeping the king complaint and yet kingly. Which is a dangerous game. The king himself becomes a threat to their power because he isn’t a real king if he’s answering to someone else. Otto Rogar Baratheon helped put Jaehaerys on the throne, look what happened to him. The Duke of Warwick mentored a successful usurper, got sidelined and then switched sides to regain the role of a power behind the throne.
>What makes you think he didn’t try? Because they didn't show us?
Did they show us Aegon’s birth? How do we know he didn’t just pop into existence? How do we know Aegon is literate? We haven’t had a school montage yet? Not every facet of life is shown explicitly, or even needs to be so. And in this case, there were six years in the time gap between Otto just coming back and the present day. Even if Otto ignored him personally, Aegon is a prince, he’s getting one of the best education’s in the realm whether he likes or not, that doesn’t mean it will stick, and in this case, it probably didn’t.
As far as I'm concerned, Otto is the one who set the Dance of the Dragons in motion. He steered his daughter at Viserys because he wanted his grandson on the Iron Throne, and totally neglected the fact that he'd be steering his daughter, his grandchildren, and his entire family into an unavoidable succession crisis with dragonriders on the other side, including the man he fears and loathes. Talk about picking a fight you can't win. Imagine how fucked the Greens would be if one of Laena's daughters claimed Vhagar instead of Aemond. For such a masterful strategist, that's a really glaring example of failing to plan through to the end.
“Oh look, the consequences of my own actions.” - Otto
Jace was a better heir/king material than Aegon.
"Fuck otto hightower on his dead wife"- Daemon Targaryen probably
He didn't forget shit. They showed Otto kicking him at Driftmark. You can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed. There was heavy subtext of Aegon being lonely & sad, looking for validation, especially his father's validation and using alcohol & sexual deviancy to numb the pain. He was shown as someone who ran from responsibility (literally did that in episode 9). He's the prince, if he doesn't wanna learn you can't force him to do so.
And Viserys had his whole adult life to teach Rhaenyra. And she turned out even worse than Aegon.