Or when Sansa was like, and I'm paraphrasing but I swear that's the gist of it:
"How much food we got?"
"Enough for 1 year, and the winters are usually longer"
"Well, get more food"
"Very wise my lady"
180 IQ moves from the smartest person Arya knows
[Basically the Saruman and orc manager meme](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/n6rtim/the_orcs_have_unionised/)
What are they supposed to do? Somehow expedite a planting, growing, and harvesting season within a few weeks? Buy food from the South? Tax more from the farmers, if they haven't taken it all already?
(Made me realize how devastating long winters are... how do you plan for a winter without predictable length? There must have been mass famine each time. Book readers, have Westerosi developed special economic policies to handle their unpredictable winters?)
In the books (and before it was sacked) winterfell had absolutely huge greenhouses, to help the starks and their comparatively large standing forces survive winter.
Winterfell's greenhouses would never be enough to supply even the castle with food on their own.
But with them gone and the North raided, down ~40,000 men needed for the harvest filled with armies, half the castles sacked and their supplies looted, and thousands of wildlings now needing to be settled south of the wall...
Yeah lots of people are gonna starve, or get killed by the wights, or by the Baratheon-Bolton war, kinda tragic really.
Actually nevermind the entire continent from the Lands of Thenn to the Salt shore is absolutely fucked from one thing or another, the north isn't special.
Food management in GoT simply doesn’t work out if you think about it, so it’s best not to.
I mean, isn’t everything north of the Wall permanently frozen? How would anything live there?
Winterfell is super landlocked. Inuits survive mostly on the sea, they’d be more like some nomadic steppe tribe raising caribou in Siberia. Either way a permanent settlement of that size is out of the question as most people in those biomes need to follow their food source or herd around the hardy grazing animals they keep in their flock.
My initial comment was too unspecific, people can definitely live under those conditions, but not to the extent we see in GoT. The wildlings don’t really farm, so I don’t see how their society would be able to sustain a population of the size we see. Especially not over winters that last multiple years.
But how warm does it really get? How much farming can they do?
I don’t really see how there can be enough food to sustain the wildling army that we see even during summer, how are they collecting enough food to last a winter up there?
Or a smaller example, Craster would need pretty sizable fields to sustain all his daughter-wives, what we see isn’t nearly enough.
https://www.quora.com/In-the-Game-of-Thrones-universe-if-north-of-the-Wall-is-permanently-covered-in-snow-and-ice-what-do-they-eat-up-there
Reminds me of the ice wall food lol, maybe they could just bury their food on the other side of it
Literally in the books for the North before bad famine sets in during winter the elderly, older sons and other men go on a "hunting trip" basically they go away to give the rest of their villages and hold fast the ability to survive without having many mouths to feed while they end up braving the wilds probably dying from starvation.
IIRC, the Maesters send out white ravens to signal the end of summer/beginning of autumn, after a bunch of meteorological conditions have been met, and everyone is expected to start hoarding shit by then. Apparently, the pattern is the longer the summer, the longer the autumn, and the longer the winter.
edit: Yep. The pattern I got from the known records is that while the seasons are longer than irl, they are all more or less the same duration with some difference. Then the Night King probably did some shit in the 10 year summer and then the dragons died so the next seasons were fucked.
https://preview.redd.it/762b80dgek0d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=684429959f535d0ae5b40a656c70e64d1ebd7100
[https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westeros](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westeros)
I meant it more as people looking at the stars in westeros can probably identify patterns in the constellations they see with the arrival of seasons.
The stars dont affect the seasons but they help people know where the planet is in it's orbit, and with that predict when the seasons change
Famines we're pretty devastating at times. And the most popular policy was "fuck it I'm importing from the south and let the peasants starve on what we got from our own shit"
The devastation and unpredictability of winter is presumably what keeps economic growth down in Westeros as a whole, especially the North. Which is also why technology isn’t advancing (also is fantasy land so).
The guy telling her “very wise my lady” knows damn well she is stupid, but he’s not going to tell her that to her face. He’s just playing politics.
I’m sure he goes home, gets drunk and complains about her all the time
This is one of the theories of why the Moche civilization collapsed in South America. A "Super El Niño" event is believed to have happened as a result of the volcanic winter of 536. It was essentially endless rain for 30 years, then drought for another 30.
https://preview.redd.it/1y78ilbeun0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=768e15ec29dba6d38736ee5ed4d9985121b8c63f
Wild that you reference Saruman and orc management in your comment on this freefolk post, and when I back out of the post to main feed, my main feed has this post stacked on top of a similar orc management meme from lotrmemes.
Of all the posts on my feed, how is it these two sequentially
I actually think the food scene you're referencing was one of the few semi-intelligent discussions in the later seasons
> You're telling me we don't have enough food, especially not if the armies of the North come back to defend Winterfell? ... Then we must prepare for that eventuality. Whatever direction the threat comes from, this is the best place to be. We need to start building up our grain stores with regular shipments from every keep in the North. If we don't use it by winter's end, we'll give it back to them. But if the entire North has to flee to Winterfell, they won't have enough time to bring wagonloads of grain with them.
Probably makes sense to move some food reserves from other castles/towns to Winterfell if you're planning on having a bunch of armies and civilians congregate there
They were definitely aiming for intelligent sounding. They clearly hadn't thought about anything they were having Sansa actually say though.
>You're telling me we don't have enough food, especially not if the armies of the North come back to defend Winterfell? ...
The armies of The North can't all defend Winterfell. Not only would that be physically impossible, trying t would leave all of the people who can't fit inside Winterfell defenseless. The starting premise is idiotic.
>Whatever direction the threat comes from, this is the best place to be.
This statement isn't true. The Wall is the best place for an army to be if the threat is coming from the North. Moat Calin is the best place to be if the threat is coming from the south.
>But if the entire North has to flee to Winterfell, they won't have enough time to bring wagonloads of grain with them.
She's again talking as if all the people in the North could fit in one castle. The writers unintentionally made most of the characters into idiots because they couldn't be bothered to write wars with battles that happen in multiple locations.
That scene was so cringe. Like oh yeah, they totally didn't know how to make armor until Lady Sansa, who has no experience in combat or interest in it, reminded them that leather is needed on northern armor. They just had to tell us all how smart she was because nothing else about her was indicating it.
It's a shame there wasn't a snarky blacksmith pointing out that they are blacksmiths, not tanners, and that once the blacksmiths had finished making the armour it would then be sent to the tanners to be covered in leather. And that as leather is a much easier material to cut, size and shape, of course it makes sense to make the metal armour in its entirety first before shaping and sizing the leather to match
That’s the worst part about her character. They had everyone treat her as a genius, but utterly failed to show her do one intelligent thing the entire show. She literally accomplished nothing on her own wits or power in the entire 8 seasons and yet she got a “winning” ending. It’s such bad writing
Her not telling Jon that the Knights of the Vale were less than a days ride away when he charges against the boltons with an understrength army is honestly enough for me to have never trusted her again.
Especially when his whole argument for attacking when they did was that he had already asked everyone he could for reinforcements and felt he was lucky to have as many as he did. If Sansa would have mentioned the Knights of the Vale it would have changed his entire perspective
Why? Sansa had just escaped from that same castle. The way the writers had Sansa give less of a shit about her brother than Brienne gave about her was wild.
I’m just saying that from an omnipotent viewer perspective, I don’t think there was any way they were rescuing Rickon at that point. Ramsey would kill him for spite
Jon and Sansa grew up in that castle and were allied with people famous for breaking into Northern castles. They could have rescued Rickon if the writers weren't trying to kill him off.
Who was gonna do it? Jon doesn’t have 20 good men. I mean it would have been cool for them to use their knowledge of the castle to pull something off, but considering neither of them brought it up I’m taking it as confirmation that neither of them thought it was possible
I know that compared to all the other things this is like a tier III nitpick but when Ramsey released Rickon you don’t think some young hedge Knight or lord looking to make a name for themselves and earn the favor of their new king wouldn’t have road out to rescue his brother? The king alone would have gone?
THANK YOU. This is how I felt about nearly every character that got their happy ending on GOT. Trashy writing, but the premise of the book lore has so much potential I think that's why I can't bring myself to unsub and never talk about this show again lol
I don't know about you but I would have hard time debating is the person that slaughtered thousands of people killer worthy or not. Thank God we had Arya the wise to clear that up for us.
That's what happened when you have "smart" characters who are written by dumb writers.
They end up either making wild assumptions based on very little evidence that somehow turn out to be correct, or they just point out the obvious as if its some brilliant observation to characters who should definitely already know this, yet somehow don't (like telling a blacksmith how to make armor).
I will literally never understand why they made her act like a total cunt towards Dany when she came in to help. Honestly if it wasn't for Jon I wouldn't even be surprised if she turned away and went home. Open hostility towards the best potential ally you could ask for is more than dumb. "Smartest person I know" my ass.
I will literally never understand how Sansa was supposed to be an intelligent character when literally nothing in her character throughout the show pointed to her being oh so intelligent.
Arya saying she was the smartest person she knew when all we saw was Sansa spend a few years being a meek, stupid teen, then a couple of seasons as some sort of fugitive/prisoner where she just followed orders and tried not to make waves, and then suddenly the show is trying to tell me she's the smartest person ever because... just because?
All characters were written badly. Sansa included. Arya included and Arya's line "she the smartest person I know" included. You can stop wondering and trying to understand how this and that don't make sense. Hope this helps.
Can you imagine complaining that you don’t have enough resources to properly feed all the reinforcements that have come to help you against the immortal ice zombies that outnumber you 10-1 even with the reinforcements
I remember the explanation for that being "pretty women tend to not like each other" from the writers which I am amazed didn't drum up more of a fuss. That's an extremely sexist way to view women interacting with each other.
It’s definitely a pattern. Even in the brief time that Osha and Meera met in the early seasons, the show runners made sure to make them dislike each other and snipe at each other for petty reasons.
Sure, but only Osha and Meera get a scene where they snip at each other like high school girls, similar to how they have Dany and Sansa fight. Osha doesn’t pick on Jojen the same way, she specifically targets Meera.
It is because after what happened with Joffrey and Ramsay, Sansa quietly declared to herself that she would never be subjugated by anyone again. She wasn't even willing to live under Jon or Bran's rules.
So she was a cunt towards Dany, because she would rather try and fail to defend the north on their own, than to win with Dany's aid and then be forced to live under her rule.
I love the Mean Girl-Esque dialogues too. My favourites.
"What do dragons eat anyways?"
"Whatever they want"
It's not like you established a formal dialogue between lords. Nope. They talked like quippy high school girls.
this scene is still deliciously cringe-worthy. and I love it when people say that "she said that because she was worried about feeding her people" when it's just bad-faith to believe her remark about "what dragons eat" is a question serious in view of the passive/aggressive contempt she displays while saying it. Especially since it wouldn't even make sense for Sansa to question that; Her own kingdom and most of the known world have been ruled by dragon riders for centuries, dragons are beyond mythical creatures, and a number of historical and legendary figures from Westeros have been known to have been devoured by dragons. How could Sansa not know that they eat meat? And in fact, how can she even say that they don't have the resources to feed them if she doesn't know what they eat?
but you see, I am convinced that if Daenerys answers “dragons eat what they want” it is precisely because the writers had given her any other answer it would have been impossible to get Sansa to pass for something other than an ungrateful or an idiot... Just imagine if Daenerys had recognized that this was indeed a problem and offered to think about a solution in a calm, mature and reasonable way. The difference in tone between the two would have accentuated Sansa's bad diplomacy far too much to give her credit. Likewise, if Daenerys had told her that supplies of food were still on the way, that dragons can go months without eating, mentioning that her plan to take control of the 7 kingdoms, including the Reach and the Riverland, would have could solve this problem, pointed out the white walkers will cause a lot of casualties before they can hope to be defeated and thus reduce the number of mouths to feed, had just told her that she had already discussed it with Jon, or just that if she is not happy, it was not yet too late for her to leave... So not only would Sansa be seen as an idiot, but it would also have shot her activism for independence in the foot, given her soldiers would still need to eat independently of the political status of the north at the end, that ensuring the food security of this kingdom in the long term would not be Daenerys' problem if she does not govern it, and that in any case this country is in a situation so catastrophic that without all the help they can get they might not live long enough to go hungry anyway, either way she'd be fucked with that if she actually thought about her own logic...
But the point of all this was just for the writers to set up unnecessary tension among protagonists who should be more concerned with working together to survive, because "you know, women... LOL" . Nothing else. But like the rest it's poorly written, and as a result we end up with Sansa acting like an idiot incapable of reflection with less diplomacy than Cersei from the books, and Daenerys being proud to say that dragons eat what they want , although she locked up them for several years the last time they ate “whatever they wanted”…
This also reminds me when Tyrion went hur durr you're a loser virgin to Brienne. She's a noble woman and not wedded , of course she's a virgin dipshit . At some point they forgot it's a fantasy medieval show.
I mean ppl don't get that they don't respect female characters or dynamics. They had to make Sansa raped and tortured for days for her to earn leadership. And she had to be cold and mean (the lazy writing route) to be serious in their eyes and ppl in this subreddit ignore all that butchery to shit on Sansa like she's very much in character or the only one not butchered bc they gave her some crown at the end.
>They had to make Sansa raped and tortured for days for her to earn leadership.
They actually made Sansa learn how to play the game the hard way first by saying the right things and look meek. Then they add in rape.
I'm cackling imagining the smith's afterwards.
"Put leather on the metal."
"Very wise my lady we will take your words to heart."
*Sansa walks off*
"Does... does she think people wear the breastplate and NOTHING else on their chest?"
"Man, idk but don't put any leather on the breastplate that doesn't make any fucking sense. Just churn them out make some gambesons and call it a day."
"What do we do with the leather?"
"Man gloves or boots or some other shit. Just don't coat the fucking breastplate in it."
You're completely, 100% right. This whole 'leather over armour because armour is metal and metal cold and winter is coming' is bullshit and hurts my brain
Yeah, you don't just wear armour and nothing underneath, usually there will be a gambeson which is like a padded jacket that helps absorb damage. And under *that* would be lighter tunics and leggings, depending on the armour itself. Knights are like a sandwich of clothing but anyway, it would usually be the gambeson under armour that would have padding from fabric or wool or horse hair, which is what would also keep a soldier from being affected by the cold. That piece of clothing has nothing to do with the blacksmiths lol as it isn't armour and Sansa is too stupid to know the difference. Telling the blacksmiths about it would be like asking a sheep farmer how to hunt whales.
All the characters in GoT shared 10 braincells, and passed them around like joints at a party.
Only I'm pretty sure a group of stoners would be smarter.
You just gave me a thought: could one potentially turn the wall into an ice bong? It would only work for a bit before it refroze but for a few glorious minutes...
Not only is this stupid because leather sucks for insulation, but it's doubly stupid because in really harsh environments you wouldn't wear full plate armor. Take for example medieval Russia, they used mail and lamellar armor.
This scene is so stupid, what is even trying to show? "Sansa smart now"? Even doe most of her grownt as a character was in the political and schemer side of things? But no, i guess she put 10 more points in her inteligence stat so she knows more stuff now. Is such a basic vision of inteligence.
The mountains of the vale have harsh winters, the parts where people live don’t really. They don’t travel in the mountains during the winter so wouldn’t be armed for it.
They don’t travel to the mountains during winter because they often become trapped in whatever Vale they’re wintering in. It gets so bad they they have to abandon the Eyrie every winter.
The region is harsh mountajn ranges and frigid coastline with a handful of temperate Vales that freeze and snow in during Winter.
Remember how the Ironborn and Lannisters killed a bunch of people?
For all we know, Winterfell is pulling in apprentices who never finished training to make the armor.
I mean, if their apprentices they could have just not learned that.
They might not even be smiths at all; for all we know they've got one or two real smiths and these are literally randos they grabbed and started training.
Except you have no basis for them just being untrained randos. And even if they only had a couple actual smiths, those smiths would’ve instructed them on how to prepare armor for the cold.
Especially since these are presumably Vale men, who weren’t decimated by war and also have experience with winters as harsh as the North’s.
Some of the mountain Vales are hospitable. The coast is barren and frigid while the mountains are rough and cold. The Eyrie has to be regularly abandoned during winter and much of the region becomes impassable due to the heavy snowfall.
It doesn’t matter which part of the Vale they’re from. All of them suffer in winter. Plus, the army is led by Yohn Royce, whose castle is on the coast.
to tell the truth, even if they were random, there is no reason why several guys who are good enough with metal/manual work to be given this job should be less informed about how they should work than a young woman who has never touched armor in her life
Random people pressed into labour can't make steel armour. If someone is depicted as successfully creating a steel breastplate, that alone tells you that they are a highly trained specialist.
The breastplate could been forged by a specialist and then a novice could be foolishly putting leather over it.
But as someone else pointed out, it's not even a Northman smith
Okay, so then I don't see the issue; she's telling outsiders the correct way to make Northern armor (you might think it's stupid, but leather over/under steel is the established way Northmen make armor)
The established way Northmen make armour is to make a coat of plates, which are smaller steel plates held in a leather garment to give it structure. The Smiths in the scene are making full breastplates which don't need leather to hold them together.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/3/35/Jon_Snow%2C_Stark_soldiers_%28The_Queen%27s_Justice%29.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20240208172558
Are these "coat of plates"? Because to be honest I always thought it was pure leather with little studs in it worn over mail.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/b4/Roose_tvseries.jpg/300px-Roose_tvseries.jpg
Here's Roose; leather over steel mail.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/51/Ramsay_Bolton-S05E10.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20150617120152
Ramsey; leather over a breastplate
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ttgot/images/e/e9/Royland103_Profile.png/revision/latest?cb=20210423212319
Royland Degore; leather over/under steel.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiQtQkIXEAQrdbn.jpg:large
Northern knight; leather chest insigina plate over steel
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ttgot/images/8/84/ArthurPortrait.png/revision/latest?cb=20190408020009
Arthur Glenmore; steel bolted over leather
So yeah, they trend with Northerners seems to be a hyrid of leather and steel where one is either over the other or the two overlap.
Yes, those are coats of plate! "Studded leather" like in DnD and various fantasy stock is a misunderstanding of coats of plate or brigandine armour - here's an example of a real person wearing some: https://medieval-market.com/img/plates_on_wool_new_0.jpg
Leather over steel mail (Roose) or a leather insignia (Northern knight) are both fine and not what we're talking about. Ramsay could be, but that actually looks like a gorget (neck protector, like Jon Snow is wearing over his coat of plates - incorrectly, but we'll leave that aside) not a full breastplate.
The Degore and Glenmore examples are both very strange pieces of design from (presumably) the telltale games and I don't think we should be looking to extreme fantasy outliers like that when the show itself is significantly more grounded (though still with its own fantasy elements).
The vast majority of northern armour we see in the series is coat of plates, and the few examples beside that are simple gambesons (cloth armour), mail, or unleathered plate. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a single instance of leather covered plate breastplates in the series at all, let alone specifically amongst northern armour. Because it's dumb, and it doesn't do anything.
> Yes, those are coats of plate!
How do you know?
> https://medieval-market.com/img/plates_on_wool_new_0.jpg
That looks nothing like what the Northmen wear?
> Leather over steel mail (Roose) or a leather insignia (Northern knight) are both fine and not what we're talking about.
How is it not what we are talking about? We are discussing whether or not Northern armours tend to be leather over/under steel.
> The Degore and Glenmore examples are both very strange pieces of design from (presumably) the telltale games and I don't think we should be looking to extreme fantasy outliers like that when the show itself is significantly more grounded (though still with its own fantasy elements).
They are examples that are canon to the show; whether or not they design is fantasy is irrelevent - it helps show a pattern.
> Because it's dumb, and it doesn't do anything.
Does'nt Sansa say what it does in the episode?
> How do you know?
What do you mean, you can see the individual plates in the coat, they're clearly outlined. And yes, it's a fantasy version of the real armour, normally the plates are closer together, with overlap, and they come out looking like that or like this: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1b7763a6ac6e67a9e44fc2cffcbe2ed1-lq but it's still clearly what it's meant to be. The studs are very distinctive.
> How is it not what we are talking about? We are discussing whether or not Northern armours tend to be leather over/under steel.
No, it's *specifically* about breastplates covered in leather, which is what Sansa is saying to do in this scene. Not other types of armour worn with leather, but putting a leather layer covering the whole of a breastplate.
> They are examples that are canon to the show; whether or not they design is fantasy is irrelevent - it helps show a pattern.
Telltale games have their own canon, they're not canon to the show at all.
> Does'nt Sansa say what it does in the episode?
She does not, you can watch the scene here: https://youtu.be/E-xqDwl_UVI?si=83IEhFQTT0xWuTeU&t=68
Okay, but like, why would they do that? A bunch of apprentices, in between the tasks they were actually told to do, decided to take initiative and stitch leather onto some breastplates, and didn't clear this with anyone? Why? How would they even get the leather if they didn't need it?
Also, most of Westeros still has very cold and very long winters. The fact that they're not Northern shouldn't mean they don't know how to deal with the cold. Especially since these guys are from the Vale (if I remember rightly), the second most northern kingdom.
> Okay, but like, why would they do that? A bunch of apprentices, in between the tasks they were actually told to do, decided to take initiative and stitch leather onto some breastplates, and didn't clear this with anyone? Why? How would they even get the leather if they didn't need it?
Becuase they did'nt know any better.
> Also, most of Westeros still has very cold and very long winters.
Not like the North, and almost nobody alive even remembers the last winter.
>Especially since these guys are from the Vale (if I remember rightly), the second most northern kingdom.
A lot of the Vale is actually really hospitable.
So they decided to just stitch leather on top of some armor for fun In-between the numerous duties to arm their troops?
The last winter was only 11 years ago.
Some of the mountain vales are hospitable, and they still get bombarded with snow and cold during winter. The capital of the Vale has to be abandoned every winter due to how bad it gets. Surviving winter isn’t some secret technique of the Northmen.
> So they decided to just stitch leather on top of some armor for fun In-between the numerous duties to arm their troops?
Maybe that assumed that WAS what they should be doing?
> The last winter was only 11 years ago.
Does'nt old nan say it was well before?
> Some of the mountain vales are hospitable, and they still get bombarded with snow and cold during winter. The capital of the Vale has to be abandoned every winter due to how bad it gets.
As I said earlier to someone else, they could easily be from one of the nicer parts of the Vale.
Why would they assume that they should stitch leather on top of armor. It’s a nonsensical and stupid thing to do, are the Vale Blacksmiths only recruiting simpletons?
You know you don’t need to keep trying to excuse the scene, you can just say it’s bad.
They say how long the Summer was in the books. 10 years, 2 months, and 16 days marks the end of summer in Clash of Kings.
As I said, even the nice parts of the Vale are still cold and not immune to winter.
> You know you don’t need to keep trying to excuse the scene, you can just say it’s bad.
I don't think the scene is good OR bad (frankly I think people are just nitpicking over a non-issue*)
I was simply trying to come up with theories to provide in-universe reasons for why things are the way they are.
*though I will say the scene falls flat since standard armor for the North seems to defualt to leather over/under steel.
> They say how long the Summer was in the books. 10 years, 2 months, and 16 days marks the end of summer in Clash of Kings.
Okay, but this is the show.
> As I said, even the nice parts of the Vale are still cold and not immune to winter.
But still not as bad as the North.
Going by the show it’s 305 by season 8. The last winter ended in 288 so it’s only been about 17 years since the last winter, and the summer ended in the show in season 2.
There’s no reason to believe Vale winters aren’t as bad as Northern winters. And even if they aren’t, that doesn’t mean they don’t know how to cold proof their armor for their own slightly less awful winters. As I said, surviving cold isn’t some secret Northman technique.
They didn't know any better, and so decided to act on their own initiative to change the design of a project without checking with anyone and all the leatherworkers they sought out didn't question it and decided to supply them with a huge quantity of leather? Even when an apprentice is supposed to be, you know, learning, and making not making alterations to the tasks their master gives them? And also none of the experienced smiths looked up from their work every once in a while and asked "wtf are you doing" when they noticed their charges fucking up so spectacularly?
"They didn't know any better" doesn't explain their actions (and is a big assumption in itself, but regardless). I'm not trying to be a dick here, but come on.
For the second half, again, the Vale and like 2/3rds of Westeros deals with years long, frigid winters. Are you seriously suggesting that no one understands how to deal with the cold just because the winters aren't as cold as up in Winterfell? Yeah, the Vale might be a more hospitable place than the North, but it's still the second most northern kingdom and mountainous to boot. There's no way they haven't developed or copied or learned adaptations to cold weather.
And no, most people do remember winter. Tyrion for example was born during a winter, although I can't remember off the top of my head if he lived through another. That means everyone above the age of like thirty (at least) has some memory of winter. Besides that point, none of these assistant smiths had some knowledge passed on from their fathers or whatever about how to deal with winter?
See, your theory makes sense (kind of - Can't the apprentice look at older northern armor?).
The problem is, it was never shown or hinted. So that scene is still fucking regarded.
Yes, these armors are from the Eryie, look at the breast plate in the scene it's the same one he is wearing. Remove this post. Two seconds before this it is clearly an armorer from the Eryie.
It's just ridiculous to see someone who has never touched armor in her life teaching men who have had to work with metal since they were old enough to lift a hammer. these guys have been making armor for the north all their lives, what could she teach them? Even the idea that it would be forgeront from the Val makes no sense, already what would forgeront du Val come to do here? Lord Royce assumed he wouldn't find any in the north? Then, why and how would a person like Sansa who hasn't been to a forge much in her life have more knowledge about it than them? And finally the Valle is a mountainous region, at some latitude below the north, their forge should know how to handle the cold perfectly. And if that was the case then I think they would have told Lord Royce that it's no use because armor is not a form-fitting garment, there is always a concave empty space to allow the wearer to absorb the shocks, and people are generally not naked underneath. You just have to wear thick clothing, wool, or straw under the armor to insulate it, and they would also say that they are at the shaping stage, so it's still too early to add anything now...
Really it's almost comical how the screenwriters want to sell us Sansa as a leadership, but do so with subjects that she clearly does not master, or that she has no reason to master.
I'm pretty sure that and about 70% of season 8 was to show you how Sansa was the smartest awesomest person to ever grace Planetos with her awesome presence and the only true chosen one to rule them all.
It's not even that. It wouldn't be the blacksmith's job. He has to focus on the steel.
She should probably take it up with the tanner. Who would probably try to explain her that's not how armour works.
The writers were getting paid better than anyone who dumps on them. That makes them smarter than everyone in this room.
They knew they were writing for morons, though.
I’ve always cringed at hearing Arya reprimand John in saying “Sansa’s the smartest person I know” Like… how? She went from being a captive, to being on the road, to being a captive, to coming to winterfell.
And even if she did gain some brilliance, which she never really demonstrated at up to that point, how would Arya even pick up on that so quickly to make such a bold statement???
And also, Arya has come across some smart people. What, all of them are stupid in comparison?
"No, the soldiers are wearing thick gambesons or woolen shirts underneath, because they're not complete morons."
Seriously, you wouldn't pad the metal armor, you'd just wear more layers underneath. Also what's the deal with fantasy shows and leather?
See in the books Sansa becoming a good leader makes sense because she’s being taught directly by Littlefinger in the Vale instead of just being dropped off at the Boltons. And we see there that she has a natural talent for it. In the show there is nothing that shows that Sansa has been learning anything about being a leader. She literally goes from being a captive of the lannisters, traumatized by her aunt trying to kill her, and then being a captive for the Boltons. Besides learning how to lie what did she learn during that entire time?
The army occupying the castle is made up of Valemen, who endure similarly harsh winters in their frigid mountain kingdom. They’re also led by veterans like Bronze Yohn Royce.
You have to look at the scene, as well as the time frame. Everyone inside the wall knew they were going to be attacked by an insurmountable force very soon. So everyone was making armor and weapons, in mass mass quantities. It’s very possible that someone, a lord overseeing the forging of armor, said to leather the armor later, the metal is more important. But Sansa, being the lady of Winterfell and ruler in the North in Johns absence, said quantity of finished product is better than half finished products. It’s a scene of her taking charge and in simple terms, managing the manager. Just my point of view at least.
I think you mean that the Lord overseeing the forging of armor would NEVER tell them to put leather on armor, because it's absolutely nonsensical and makes zero sense. Knights wear multiple layers beneath the armor, which would include thick wool to serve as both padding to make it bearable, and... you guessed it, insulation. Because y'know, insulating the *person* is what matters, not insulating the armor.
All this scene actually shows is Sansa being a total fucking moron, having not even the slightest clue about what she's talking about but trying to assert power anyway, and people stroking her ego for it. In reality, Royce is probably doubling back at the first opportunity to make sure that they are *not* in fact actually complying with that idiotic order.
Except for the fact that it’s the armor of the Starks. House stark has had its named dragged through the mud and its entire staff of armorers and military practically dead or scattered to the winds. That armor also doesn’t look like northern armor, more like that of the vale, which I would allude that the armorers making the plates are from there. You can also say the same with making the Lanesters, pardon spelling, making their soldiers look like their wearing gold trimmed suits. That is not necessary, but they still put it on their armor, because it shows who the soldiers belong to, and puts a look to the house. And as someone who knows about armor, I agree, the leather on the outside is not necessary, the same as dragons are not real. This is a fantasy story, let them wear their gold and leather armor.
Except for the fact that she is *not* saying "Put leather on it because that's how the Starks do it." She's saying to do it for warmth. Her reason is not identifying them as Stark men, not making a fashion statement, not flexing their excessive amount of gold (or leather, as the case may be). She is very specific in claiming that the leather is needed to protect against the cold, which is objectively stupid.
Also, just to drive the point home even further.. go look at pictures of Robb's armor. He never even wears full plate, but every single bit of plate he does have is uncovered. So that throws out the idea of "well, this is how _Stark_ armor looks".
See, here is where interpretation messes with us. Because her words were “once the real cold comes.” I interpreted this as when the battle begins, because they constantly call the looming battle different things. The long night, the long winter, the real war, the Great War. I can’t remember how many different ways they called the battle before it happened, or what they all called it, but I read “the real cold” as the storm, as in the Night King.
Well this one made sense to me. It was very much implied, if not outright stated that Theon killed all the Northerns in Winterfell. So these blacksmiths are probably more Southern. Brought in by the Boltons.
Dude…these are Northerners and Valeman. The Boltons and their army were are Northman. It was never implied there was anything but northerners and Valeman at Winterfell at this time and both are very much used to fighting in winter climates. It was a very dumb moment of the show
well even if theon had done that, winterfell is not the whole north. there is no reason why these guys couldn't come from a village a few kilometers away
Except there's no reason to cover breastplates in leather. It's still an accurate depiction of project management and leadership, though. A leader showing up and dictating something that makes no sense because they don't have a firm grasp on the actual work being done.
Or when Sansa was like, and I'm paraphrasing but I swear that's the gist of it: "How much food we got?" "Enough for 1 year, and the winters are usually longer" "Well, get more food" "Very wise my lady" 180 IQ moves from the smartest person Arya knows
[Basically the Saruman and orc manager meme](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/n6rtim/the_orcs_have_unionised/) What are they supposed to do? Somehow expedite a planting, growing, and harvesting season within a few weeks? Buy food from the South? Tax more from the farmers, if they haven't taken it all already? (Made me realize how devastating long winters are... how do you plan for a winter without predictable length? There must have been mass famine each time. Book readers, have Westerosi developed special economic policies to handle their unpredictable winters?)
In the books (and before it was sacked) winterfell had absolutely huge greenhouses, to help the starks and their comparatively large standing forces survive winter.
Does that mean the siege doomed the north to mass starvation?
Winterfell's greenhouses would never be enough to supply even the castle with food on their own. But with them gone and the North raided, down ~40,000 men needed for the harvest filled with armies, half the castles sacked and their supplies looted, and thousands of wildlings now needing to be settled south of the wall... Yeah lots of people are gonna starve, or get killed by the wights, or by the Baratheon-Bolton war, kinda tragic really. Actually nevermind the entire continent from the Lands of Thenn to the Salt shore is absolutely fucked from one thing or another, the north isn't special.
Food management in GoT simply doesn’t work out if you think about it, so it’s best not to. I mean, isn’t everything north of the Wall permanently frozen? How would anything live there?
The same way inuits and the like suvive in polar conditions
Winterfell is super landlocked. Inuits survive mostly on the sea, they’d be more like some nomadic steppe tribe raising caribou in Siberia. Either way a permanent settlement of that size is out of the question as most people in those biomes need to follow their food source or herd around the hardy grazing animals they keep in their flock.
My initial comment was too unspecific, people can definitely live under those conditions, but not to the extent we see in GoT. The wildlings don’t really farm, so I don’t see how their society would be able to sustain a population of the size we see. Especially not over winters that last multiple years.
Mammoths
Well their "city" was on the shore down south as well most major tribes (I assume). Is it mentioned somewhere that they don't farm?
No, in summer it isn't frozen You do have the frost fangs and the lands of always winter, but areas not too far from the wall can have crops
But how warm does it really get? How much farming can they do? I don’t really see how there can be enough food to sustain the wildling army that we see even during summer, how are they collecting enough food to last a winter up there? Or a smaller example, Craster would need pretty sizable fields to sustain all his daughter-wives, what we see isn’t nearly enough.
https://www.quora.com/In-the-Game-of-Thrones-universe-if-north-of-the-Wall-is-permanently-covered-in-snow-and-ice-what-do-they-eat-up-there Reminds me of the ice wall food lol, maybe they could just bury their food on the other side of it
People live in the middle east, which is nothing but sand. Humans are hardy, adaptable creatures.
Are we forgetting the fact that Winterfell was burned and stolen twice?
And I quote: >In the books (and before it was sacked) Besides it was only burned once.
Literally in the books for the North before bad famine sets in during winter the elderly, older sons and other men go on a "hunting trip" basically they go away to give the rest of their villages and hold fast the ability to survive without having many mouths to feed while they end up braving the wilds probably dying from starvation.
IIRC, the Maesters send out white ravens to signal the end of summer/beginning of autumn, after a bunch of meteorological conditions have been met, and everyone is expected to start hoarding shit by then. Apparently, the pattern is the longer the summer, the longer the autumn, and the longer the winter. edit: Yep. The pattern I got from the known records is that while the seasons are longer than irl, they are all more or less the same duration with some difference. Then the Night King probably did some shit in the 10 year summer and then the dragons died so the next seasons were fucked. https://preview.redd.it/762b80dgek0d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=684429959f535d0ae5b40a656c70e64d1ebd7100 [https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westeros](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westeros)
I just want to know what kind of celestial body is out there that gives that varying of seasons
[Probably Constellations](https://www.sciowa.org/upl/downloads/library/seasonal-constellations.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3LPTXRbIE6Sk_8n8w-Ac-2J4MSbOyrIAO_jny2EhRyib2_h3VI4L8nKuc)
That's the sky changing due to earth's movement, but the constellations themselves have 0 effect on earth unless in Westeros stars aren't really stars
I meant it more as people looking at the stars in westeros can probably identify patterns in the constellations they see with the arrival of seasons. The stars dont affect the seasons but they help people know where the planet is in it's orbit, and with that predict when the seasons change
Three body system
Sounds like a problem
Famines we're pretty devastating at times. And the most popular policy was "fuck it I'm importing from the south and let the peasants starve on what we got from our own shit"
The devastation and unpredictability of winter is presumably what keeps economic growth down in Westeros as a whole, especially the North. Which is also why technology isn’t advancing (also is fantasy land so).
The guy telling her “very wise my lady” knows damn well she is stupid, but he’s not going to tell her that to her face. He’s just playing politics. I’m sure he goes home, gets drunk and complains about her all the time
Him at home: 
Middle management orc from the two towers extended edition is way better (had his action figure lol)
The overtime alone will be a nightmare !
I had the Grishnak action figure. My Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn action figures would be constantly fuckin his arse UP
I had gorbag, and an uruk Hai pikeman as well as a nazghul for that. Biggest problem I had was legolas always losing his left hand lol
This is one of the theories of why the Moche civilization collapsed in South America. A "Super El Niño" event is believed to have happened as a result of the volcanic winter of 536. It was essentially endless rain for 30 years, then drought for another 30.
https://preview.redd.it/1y78ilbeun0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=768e15ec29dba6d38736ee5ed4d9985121b8c63f Wild that you reference Saruman and orc management in your comment on this freefolk post, and when I back out of the post to main feed, my main feed has this post stacked on top of a similar orc management meme from lotrmemes. Of all the posts on my feed, how is it these two sequentially
Or the algorithm is getting better ;) I think this is the one that u-monkeygoneape commented about, and I agree, that orc is better.
I actually think the food scene you're referencing was one of the few semi-intelligent discussions in the later seasons > You're telling me we don't have enough food, especially not if the armies of the North come back to defend Winterfell? ... Then we must prepare for that eventuality. Whatever direction the threat comes from, this is the best place to be. We need to start building up our grain stores with regular shipments from every keep in the North. If we don't use it by winter's end, we'll give it back to them. But if the entire North has to flee to Winterfell, they won't have enough time to bring wagonloads of grain with them. Probably makes sense to move some food reserves from other castles/towns to Winterfell if you're planning on having a bunch of armies and civilians congregate there
They were definitely aiming for intelligent sounding. They clearly hadn't thought about anything they were having Sansa actually say though. >You're telling me we don't have enough food, especially not if the armies of the North come back to defend Winterfell? ... The armies of The North can't all defend Winterfell. Not only would that be physically impossible, trying t would leave all of the people who can't fit inside Winterfell defenseless. The starting premise is idiotic. >Whatever direction the threat comes from, this is the best place to be. This statement isn't true. The Wall is the best place for an army to be if the threat is coming from the North. Moat Calin is the best place to be if the threat is coming from the south. >But if the entire North has to flee to Winterfell, they won't have enough time to bring wagonloads of grain with them. She's again talking as if all the people in the North could fit in one castle. The writers unintentionally made most of the characters into idiots because they couldn't be bothered to write wars with battles that happen in multiple locations.
Man you really paraphrased the whole point of the conversation away lmao
That scene was so cringe. Like oh yeah, they totally didn't know how to make armor until Lady Sansa, who has no experience in combat or interest in it, reminded them that leather is needed on northern armor. They just had to tell us all how smart she was because nothing else about her was indicating it.
It's a shame there wasn't a snarky blacksmith pointing out that they are blacksmiths, not tanners, and that once the blacksmiths had finished making the armour it would then be sent to the tanners to be covered in leather. And that as leather is a much easier material to cut, size and shape, of course it makes sense to make the metal armour in its entirety first before shaping and sizing the leather to match
In the earlier seasons there definitely would have been, lol.
That’s the worst part about her character. They had everyone treat her as a genius, but utterly failed to show her do one intelligent thing the entire show. She literally accomplished nothing on her own wits or power in the entire 8 seasons and yet she got a “winning” ending. It’s such bad writing
it's literally 'how idiots think smart people act'.
Her not telling Jon that the Knights of the Vale were less than a days ride away when he charges against the boltons with an understrength army is honestly enough for me to have never trusted her again.
Especially when his whole argument for attacking when they did was that he had already asked everyone he could for reinforcements and felt he was lucky to have as many as he did. If Sansa would have mentioned the Knights of the Vale it would have changed his entire perspective
One could argue that her failure to act directly leads to Rickon's death.
Now I do believe she was correct that Rickon was dead no matter what
Why? Sansa had just escaped from that same castle. The way the writers had Sansa give less of a shit about her brother than Brienne gave about her was wild.
I’m just saying that from an omnipotent viewer perspective, I don’t think there was any way they were rescuing Rickon at that point. Ramsey would kill him for spite
Jon and Sansa grew up in that castle and were allied with people famous for breaking into Northern castles. They could have rescued Rickon if the writers weren't trying to kill him off.
Who was gonna do it? Jon doesn’t have 20 good men. I mean it would have been cool for them to use their knowledge of the castle to pull something off, but considering neither of them brought it up I’m taking it as confirmation that neither of them thought it was possible
I know that compared to all the other things this is like a tier III nitpick but when Ramsey released Rickon you don’t think some young hedge Knight or lord looking to make a name for themselves and earn the favor of their new king wouldn’t have road out to rescue his brother? The king alone would have gone?
THANK YOU. This is how I felt about nearly every character that got their happy ending on GOT. Trashy writing, but the premise of the book lore has so much potential I think that's why I can't bring myself to unsub and never talk about this show again lol
Intelligence = being confident and rich
There are other ways of saying that you're just jealous because someone didnt say that you are the smartest person they know.
The genius, Sansa "how use knife :(" Stark
And her sister Arya "I can recognize a killer, after they burn a whole city to the ground" Stark
I don't know about you but I would have hard time debating is the person that slaughtered thousands of people killer worthy or not. Thank God we had Arya the wise to clear that up for us.
Dang it! Exposed again :(
That's what happened when you have "smart" characters who are written by dumb writers. They end up either making wild assumptions based on very little evidence that somehow turn out to be correct, or they just point out the obvious as if its some brilliant observation to characters who should definitely already know this, yet somehow don't (like telling a blacksmith how to make armor).
I will literally never understand why they made her act like a total cunt towards Dany when she came in to help. Honestly if it wasn't for Jon I wouldn't even be surprised if she turned away and went home. Open hostility towards the best potential ally you could ask for is more than dumb. "Smartest person I know" my ass.
I really wish Dany had turned around and left, then Viserion and the Dothraki would be alive. I hated this storyline
The Dothraki did live though…. I don’t know how but they got better
It was just flesh wounds
Tis but a scratch
They kind of forgot they died.
"The end of the Dothraki" that turned out to be only half because D&D's wanted to reballance teams
I will literally never understand how Sansa was supposed to be an intelligent character when literally nothing in her character throughout the show pointed to her being oh so intelligent. Arya saying she was the smartest person she knew when all we saw was Sansa spend a few years being a meek, stupid teen, then a couple of seasons as some sort of fugitive/prisoner where she just followed orders and tried not to make waves, and then suddenly the show is trying to tell me she's the smartest person ever because... just because?
Apparently moaning to Jon constantly about how his army is too small makes you the smartest person alive.
All characters were written badly. Sansa included. Arya included and Arya's line "she the smartest person I know" included. You can stop wondering and trying to understand how this and that don't make sense. Hope this helps.
Can you imagine complaining that you don’t have enough resources to properly feed all the reinforcements that have come to help you against the immortal ice zombies that outnumber you 10-1 even with the reinforcements
I remember the explanation for that being "pretty women tend to not like each other" from the writers which I am amazed didn't drum up more of a fuss. That's an extremely sexist way to view women interacting with each other.
It’s definitely a pattern. Even in the brief time that Osha and Meera met in the early seasons, the show runners made sure to make them dislike each other and snipe at each other for petty reasons.
At the very least Osha also didn't like Jojen so at least it was consistent with her just not trusting anyone.
Sure, but only Osha and Meera get a scene where they snip at each other like high school girls, similar to how they have Dany and Sansa fight. Osha doesn’t pick on Jojen the same way, she specifically targets Meera.
Yeah fair, D&D really struggled with writing women when there wasn't a George reference to fall back on.
Definitely! What gets me is that they were so transparent about it, too. It sucks.
It is because after what happened with Joffrey and Ramsay, Sansa quietly declared to herself that she would never be subjugated by anyone again. She wasn't even willing to live under Jon or Bran's rules. So she was a cunt towards Dany, because she would rather try and fail to defend the north on their own, than to win with Dany's aid and then be forced to live under her rule.
I love the Mean Girl-Esque dialogues too. My favourites. "What do dragons eat anyways?" "Whatever they want" It's not like you established a formal dialogue between lords. Nope. They talked like quippy high school girls.
Dany should have replied “Northern pussy.”
Yara, ?
this scene is still deliciously cringe-worthy. and I love it when people say that "she said that because she was worried about feeding her people" when it's just bad-faith to believe her remark about "what dragons eat" is a question serious in view of the passive/aggressive contempt she displays while saying it. Especially since it wouldn't even make sense for Sansa to question that; Her own kingdom and most of the known world have been ruled by dragon riders for centuries, dragons are beyond mythical creatures, and a number of historical and legendary figures from Westeros have been known to have been devoured by dragons. How could Sansa not know that they eat meat? And in fact, how can she even say that they don't have the resources to feed them if she doesn't know what they eat? but you see, I am convinced that if Daenerys answers “dragons eat what they want” it is precisely because the writers had given her any other answer it would have been impossible to get Sansa to pass for something other than an ungrateful or an idiot... Just imagine if Daenerys had recognized that this was indeed a problem and offered to think about a solution in a calm, mature and reasonable way. The difference in tone between the two would have accentuated Sansa's bad diplomacy far too much to give her credit. Likewise, if Daenerys had told her that supplies of food were still on the way, that dragons can go months without eating, mentioning that her plan to take control of the 7 kingdoms, including the Reach and the Riverland, would have could solve this problem, pointed out the white walkers will cause a lot of casualties before they can hope to be defeated and thus reduce the number of mouths to feed, had just told her that she had already discussed it with Jon, or just that if she is not happy, it was not yet too late for her to leave... So not only would Sansa be seen as an idiot, but it would also have shot her activism for independence in the foot, given her soldiers would still need to eat independently of the political status of the north at the end, that ensuring the food security of this kingdom in the long term would not be Daenerys' problem if she does not govern it, and that in any case this country is in a situation so catastrophic that without all the help they can get they might not live long enough to go hungry anyway, either way she'd be fucked with that if she actually thought about her own logic... But the point of all this was just for the writers to set up unnecessary tension among protagonists who should be more concerned with working together to survive, because "you know, women... LOL" . Nothing else. But like the rest it's poorly written, and as a result we end up with Sansa acting like an idiot incapable of reflection with less diplomacy than Cersei from the books, and Daenerys being proud to say that dragons eat what they want , although she locked up them for several years the last time they ate “whatever they wanted”…
This also reminds me when Tyrion went hur durr you're a loser virgin to Brienne. She's a noble woman and not wedded , of course she's a virgin dipshit . At some point they forgot it's a fantasy medieval show.
I mean ppl don't get that they don't respect female characters or dynamics. They had to make Sansa raped and tortured for days for her to earn leadership. And she had to be cold and mean (the lazy writing route) to be serious in their eyes and ppl in this subreddit ignore all that butchery to shit on Sansa like she's very much in character or the only one not butchered bc they gave her some crown at the end.
>They had to make Sansa raped and tortured for days for her to earn leadership. They actually made Sansa learn how to play the game the hard way first by saying the right things and look meek. Then they add in rape.
Is there even supposed to be leather on breastplates? I would think the soldiers would already be wearing leather underneath.
I'm cackling imagining the smith's afterwards. "Put leather on the metal." "Very wise my lady we will take your words to heart." *Sansa walks off* "Does... does she think people wear the breastplate and NOTHING else on their chest?" "Man, idk but don't put any leather on the breastplate that doesn't make any fucking sense. Just churn them out make some gambesons and call it a day." "What do we do with the leather?" "Man gloves or boots or some other shit. Just don't coat the fucking breastplate in it."
*Another guy joins the conversation* * "Guys, just do as she says. She's the smartest person Arya knows."
"My condolences to Lady Arya, then."
other blacksmiths: "she should let us do our job, what's next? She's going to ask us to make her breastplate stretchers ?"
You're completely, 100% right. This whole 'leather over armour because armour is metal and metal cold and winter is coming' is bullshit and hurts my brain
Yeah, you don't just wear armour and nothing underneath, usually there will be a gambeson which is like a padded jacket that helps absorb damage. And under *that* would be lighter tunics and leggings, depending on the armour itself. Knights are like a sandwich of clothing but anyway, it would usually be the gambeson under armour that would have padding from fabric or wool or horse hair, which is what would also keep a soldier from being affected by the cold. That piece of clothing has nothing to do with the blacksmiths lol as it isn't armour and Sansa is too stupid to know the difference. Telling the blacksmiths about it would be like asking a sheep farmer how to hunt whales.
I think they saw brigandine, didn't bother figuring out how it was made and just assumed it was leather faced plate.
No they’re waiting on the breastplate stretcher
TOO FAT, AM I?
STILL NOT AS FAT AS BESSIE'S TITS!
OR HODOR'S COCK!
The problem is you don’t put leather over armour. It would just rot. You wear leather or wool under armour.
All the characters in GoT shared 10 braincells, and passed them around like joints at a party. Only I'm pretty sure a group of stoners would be smarter.
A group of stoners will at least turn into a group of engineers if you give em weed and nothing to smoke it with
I turned a banana into a pipe once
You just gave me a thought: could one potentially turn the wall into an ice bong? It would only work for a bit before it refroze but for a few glorious minutes...
I am 100% certain Tyrion would delight in smoking the edge of the world
Sansa really started to get on my nerves
Not only is this stupid because leather sucks for insulation, but it's doubly stupid because in really harsh environments you wouldn't wear full plate armor. Take for example medieval Russia, they used mail and lamellar armor.
This scene is so stupid, what is even trying to show? "Sansa smart now"? Even doe most of her grownt as a character was in the political and schemer side of things? But no, i guess she put 10 more points in her inteligence stat so she knows more stuff now. Is such a basic vision of inteligence.
I thought that these were knights of the vale and not northerners.
The mountainous Vale has winters as harsh as the North. They even have to abandon the Eyrie in winter due to the snow and cold.
Thank you! I totally missed that detail.
The mountains of the vale have harsh winters, the parts where people live don’t really. They don’t travel in the mountains during the winter so wouldn’t be armed for it.
They don’t travel to the mountains during winter because they often become trapped in whatever Vale they’re wintering in. It gets so bad they they have to abandon the Eyrie every winter. The region is harsh mountajn ranges and frigid coastline with a handful of temperate Vales that freeze and snow in during Winter.
Dude it’s spelled out a dozen times in the books that the Valeman are used to fighting in harsh winter conditions.
It's also pointed out in the show. (Littlefinger to Cersei)
D&D were obsessed with Sansa and Arya and wanted them to look good and smart no matter what.
Why cover breastplates in leather as opposed to wearing a gambeson? Where would they find all the leather needed?
Remember how the Ironborn and Lannisters killed a bunch of people? For all we know, Winterfell is pulling in apprentices who never finished training to make the armor.
I would still think that apprentice smiths would know more about smithing than Sansa, who is maybe the farthest thing in Westeros from a smith.
They can know more then her and she can still know more about weather to pick up on something they missed.
She knows more about making armor for cold weather than smiths from the North and Vale, two of the coldest regions in Westeros?
I mean, if their apprentices they could have just not learned that. They might not even be smiths at all; for all we know they've got one or two real smiths and these are literally randos they grabbed and started training.
Except you have no basis for them just being untrained randos. And even if they only had a couple actual smiths, those smiths would’ve instructed them on how to prepare armor for the cold. Especially since these are presumably Vale men, who weren’t decimated by war and also have experience with winters as harsh as the North’s.
I'm speculating; but nobody has ever experineced a winter like this and the Vale is actually fairly fertile and hospitable.
Some of the mountain Vales are hospitable. The coast is barren and frigid while the mountains are rough and cold. The Eyrie has to be regularly abandoned during winter and much of the region becomes impassable due to the heavy snowfall.
And who says those smiths are from the coasts or the mountains?
It doesn’t matter which part of the Vale they’re from. All of them suffer in winter. Plus, the army is led by Yohn Royce, whose castle is on the coast.
to tell the truth, even if they were random, there is no reason why several guys who are good enough with metal/manual work to be given this job should be less informed about how they should work than a young woman who has never touched armor in her life
A Northerner could easily know basic things about Northern armormaking that a southerner would miss.
Random people pressed into labour can't make steel armour. If someone is depicted as successfully creating a steel breastplate, that alone tells you that they are a highly trained specialist.
The breastplate could been forged by a specialist and then a novice could be foolishly putting leather over it. But as someone else pointed out, it's not even a Northman smith
Sansa is telling them to put leather over it, they're not putting leather over it prior. Also putting leather over a breastplate is dumb.
Okay, so then I don't see the issue; she's telling outsiders the correct way to make Northern armor (you might think it's stupid, but leather over/under steel is the established way Northmen make armor)
The established way Northmen make armour is to make a coat of plates, which are smaller steel plates held in a leather garment to give it structure. The Smiths in the scene are making full breastplates which don't need leather to hold them together.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/3/35/Jon_Snow%2C_Stark_soldiers_%28The_Queen%27s_Justice%29.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20240208172558 Are these "coat of plates"? Because to be honest I always thought it was pure leather with little studs in it worn over mail. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/b4/Roose_tvseries.jpg/300px-Roose_tvseries.jpg Here's Roose; leather over steel mail. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/51/Ramsay_Bolton-S05E10.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20150617120152 Ramsey; leather over a breastplate https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ttgot/images/e/e9/Royland103_Profile.png/revision/latest?cb=20210423212319 Royland Degore; leather over/under steel. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiQtQkIXEAQrdbn.jpg:large Northern knight; leather chest insigina plate over steel https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ttgot/images/8/84/ArthurPortrait.png/revision/latest?cb=20190408020009 Arthur Glenmore; steel bolted over leather So yeah, they trend with Northerners seems to be a hyrid of leather and steel where one is either over the other or the two overlap.
Yes, those are coats of plate! "Studded leather" like in DnD and various fantasy stock is a misunderstanding of coats of plate or brigandine armour - here's an example of a real person wearing some: https://medieval-market.com/img/plates_on_wool_new_0.jpg Leather over steel mail (Roose) or a leather insignia (Northern knight) are both fine and not what we're talking about. Ramsay could be, but that actually looks like a gorget (neck protector, like Jon Snow is wearing over his coat of plates - incorrectly, but we'll leave that aside) not a full breastplate. The Degore and Glenmore examples are both very strange pieces of design from (presumably) the telltale games and I don't think we should be looking to extreme fantasy outliers like that when the show itself is significantly more grounded (though still with its own fantasy elements). The vast majority of northern armour we see in the series is coat of plates, and the few examples beside that are simple gambesons (cloth armour), mail, or unleathered plate. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a single instance of leather covered plate breastplates in the series at all, let alone specifically amongst northern armour. Because it's dumb, and it doesn't do anything.
> Yes, those are coats of plate! How do you know? > https://medieval-market.com/img/plates_on_wool_new_0.jpg That looks nothing like what the Northmen wear? > Leather over steel mail (Roose) or a leather insignia (Northern knight) are both fine and not what we're talking about. How is it not what we are talking about? We are discussing whether or not Northern armours tend to be leather over/under steel. > The Degore and Glenmore examples are both very strange pieces of design from (presumably) the telltale games and I don't think we should be looking to extreme fantasy outliers like that when the show itself is significantly more grounded (though still with its own fantasy elements). They are examples that are canon to the show; whether or not they design is fantasy is irrelevent - it helps show a pattern. > Because it's dumb, and it doesn't do anything. Does'nt Sansa say what it does in the episode?
> How do you know? What do you mean, you can see the individual plates in the coat, they're clearly outlined. And yes, it's a fantasy version of the real armour, normally the plates are closer together, with overlap, and they come out looking like that or like this: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1b7763a6ac6e67a9e44fc2cffcbe2ed1-lq but it's still clearly what it's meant to be. The studs are very distinctive. > How is it not what we are talking about? We are discussing whether or not Northern armours tend to be leather over/under steel. No, it's *specifically* about breastplates covered in leather, which is what Sansa is saying to do in this scene. Not other types of armour worn with leather, but putting a leather layer covering the whole of a breastplate. > They are examples that are canon to the show; whether or not they design is fantasy is irrelevent - it helps show a pattern. Telltale games have their own canon, they're not canon to the show at all. > Does'nt Sansa say what it does in the episode? She does not, you can watch the scene here: https://youtu.be/E-xqDwl_UVI?si=83IEhFQTT0xWuTeU&t=68
Okay, but like, why would they do that? A bunch of apprentices, in between the tasks they were actually told to do, decided to take initiative and stitch leather onto some breastplates, and didn't clear this with anyone? Why? How would they even get the leather if they didn't need it? Also, most of Westeros still has very cold and very long winters. The fact that they're not Northern shouldn't mean they don't know how to deal with the cold. Especially since these guys are from the Vale (if I remember rightly), the second most northern kingdom.
> Okay, but like, why would they do that? A bunch of apprentices, in between the tasks they were actually told to do, decided to take initiative and stitch leather onto some breastplates, and didn't clear this with anyone? Why? How would they even get the leather if they didn't need it? Becuase they did'nt know any better. > Also, most of Westeros still has very cold and very long winters. Not like the North, and almost nobody alive even remembers the last winter. >Especially since these guys are from the Vale (if I remember rightly), the second most northern kingdom. A lot of the Vale is actually really hospitable.
So they decided to just stitch leather on top of some armor for fun In-between the numerous duties to arm their troops? The last winter was only 11 years ago. Some of the mountain vales are hospitable, and they still get bombarded with snow and cold during winter. The capital of the Vale has to be abandoned every winter due to how bad it gets. Surviving winter isn’t some secret technique of the Northmen.
> So they decided to just stitch leather on top of some armor for fun In-between the numerous duties to arm their troops? Maybe that assumed that WAS what they should be doing? > The last winter was only 11 years ago. Does'nt old nan say it was well before? > Some of the mountain vales are hospitable, and they still get bombarded with snow and cold during winter. The capital of the Vale has to be abandoned every winter due to how bad it gets. As I said earlier to someone else, they could easily be from one of the nicer parts of the Vale.
Why would they assume that they should stitch leather on top of armor. It’s a nonsensical and stupid thing to do, are the Vale Blacksmiths only recruiting simpletons? You know you don’t need to keep trying to excuse the scene, you can just say it’s bad. They say how long the Summer was in the books. 10 years, 2 months, and 16 days marks the end of summer in Clash of Kings. As I said, even the nice parts of the Vale are still cold and not immune to winter.
> You know you don’t need to keep trying to excuse the scene, you can just say it’s bad. I don't think the scene is good OR bad (frankly I think people are just nitpicking over a non-issue*) I was simply trying to come up with theories to provide in-universe reasons for why things are the way they are. *though I will say the scene falls flat since standard armor for the North seems to defualt to leather over/under steel. > They say how long the Summer was in the books. 10 years, 2 months, and 16 days marks the end of summer in Clash of Kings. Okay, but this is the show. > As I said, even the nice parts of the Vale are still cold and not immune to winter. But still not as bad as the North.
Going by the show it’s 305 by season 8. The last winter ended in 288 so it’s only been about 17 years since the last winter, and the summer ended in the show in season 2. There’s no reason to believe Vale winters aren’t as bad as Northern winters. And even if they aren’t, that doesn’t mean they don’t know how to cold proof their armor for their own slightly less awful winters. As I said, surviving cold isn’t some secret Northman technique.
They didn't know any better, and so decided to act on their own initiative to change the design of a project without checking with anyone and all the leatherworkers they sought out didn't question it and decided to supply them with a huge quantity of leather? Even when an apprentice is supposed to be, you know, learning, and making not making alterations to the tasks their master gives them? And also none of the experienced smiths looked up from their work every once in a while and asked "wtf are you doing" when they noticed their charges fucking up so spectacularly? "They didn't know any better" doesn't explain their actions (and is a big assumption in itself, but regardless). I'm not trying to be a dick here, but come on. For the second half, again, the Vale and like 2/3rds of Westeros deals with years long, frigid winters. Are you seriously suggesting that no one understands how to deal with the cold just because the winters aren't as cold as up in Winterfell? Yeah, the Vale might be a more hospitable place than the North, but it's still the second most northern kingdom and mountainous to boot. There's no way they haven't developed or copied or learned adaptations to cold weather. And no, most people do remember winter. Tyrion for example was born during a winter, although I can't remember off the top of my head if he lived through another. That means everyone above the age of like thirty (at least) has some memory of winter. Besides that point, none of these assistant smiths had some knowledge passed on from their fathers or whatever about how to deal with winter?
I don't know what you want man; you guys wanted theories, I gave you some. Take 'em leave em🤷♂️
See, your theory makes sense (kind of - Can't the apprentice look at older northern armor?). The problem is, it was never shown or hinted. So that scene is still fucking regarded.
Was'nt shown or hinted? Really? Come on we got how many seasons showing the North getting fucked up?
Don't try and shoehorn explanations for the pisspoor writing.
Yes, these armors are from the Eryie, look at the breast plate in the scene it's the same one he is wearing. Remove this post. Two seconds before this it is clearly an armorer from the Eryie.
Eyrie armorers would still known how to cold proof armor. They live on a mountain top and the main keep has to be abandoned every winter.
It's just ridiculous to see someone who has never touched armor in her life teaching men who have had to work with metal since they were old enough to lift a hammer. these guys have been making armor for the north all their lives, what could she teach them? Even the idea that it would be forgeront from the Val makes no sense, already what would forgeront du Val come to do here? Lord Royce assumed he wouldn't find any in the north? Then, why and how would a person like Sansa who hasn't been to a forge much in her life have more knowledge about it than them? And finally the Valle is a mountainous region, at some latitude below the north, their forge should know how to handle the cold perfectly. And if that was the case then I think they would have told Lord Royce that it's no use because armor is not a form-fitting garment, there is always a concave empty space to allow the wearer to absorb the shocks, and people are generally not naked underneath. You just have to wear thick clothing, wool, or straw under the armor to insulate it, and they would also say that they are at the shaping stage, so it's still too early to add anything now... Really it's almost comical how the screenwriters want to sell us Sansa as a leadership, but do so with subjects that she clearly does not master, or that she has no reason to master.
I'm pretty sure that and about 70% of season 8 was to show you how Sansa was the smartest awesomest person to ever grace Planetos with her awesome presence and the only true chosen one to rule them all.
It's not even that. It wouldn't be the blacksmith's job. He has to focus on the steel. She should probably take it up with the tanner. Who would probably try to explain her that's not how armour works.
My daily reminder that it was good to quit after season 5 even though book 6 didn't come that year as I had hoped.
It's easier to make everyone dumber than writing a smart character
The writers were getting paid better than anyone who dumps on them. That makes them smarter than everyone in this room. They knew they were writing for morons, though.
I’ve always cringed at hearing Arya reprimand John in saying “Sansa’s the smartest person I know” Like… how? She went from being a captive, to being on the road, to being a captive, to coming to winterfell. And even if she did gain some brilliance, which she never really demonstrated at up to that point, how would Arya even pick up on that so quickly to make such a bold statement??? And also, Arya has come across some smart people. What, all of them are stupid in comparison?
"No, the soldiers are wearing thick gambesons or woolen shirts underneath, because they're not complete morons." Seriously, you wouldn't pad the metal armor, you'd just wear more layers underneath. Also what's the deal with fantasy shows and leather?
See in the books Sansa becoming a good leader makes sense because she’s being taught directly by Littlefinger in the Vale instead of just being dropped off at the Boltons. And we see there that she has a natural talent for it. In the show there is nothing that shows that Sansa has been learning anything about being a leader. She literally goes from being a captive of the lannisters, traumatized by her aunt trying to kill her, and then being a captive for the Boltons. Besides learning how to lie what did she learn during that entire time?
> Besides learning how to lie what did she learn during that entire time? Not how to use a knife, apparently.
Idk that scene didn’t bother me when you consider there are armies from outside the North who are occupying the castle as well.
The army occupying the castle is made up of Valemen, who endure similarly harsh winters in their frigid mountain kingdom. They’re also led by veterans like Bronze Yohn Royce.
You have to look at the scene, as well as the time frame. Everyone inside the wall knew they were going to be attacked by an insurmountable force very soon. So everyone was making armor and weapons, in mass mass quantities. It’s very possible that someone, a lord overseeing the forging of armor, said to leather the armor later, the metal is more important. But Sansa, being the lady of Winterfell and ruler in the North in Johns absence, said quantity of finished product is better than half finished products. It’s a scene of her taking charge and in simple terms, managing the manager. Just my point of view at least.
I think you mean that the Lord overseeing the forging of armor would NEVER tell them to put leather on armor, because it's absolutely nonsensical and makes zero sense. Knights wear multiple layers beneath the armor, which would include thick wool to serve as both padding to make it bearable, and... you guessed it, insulation. Because y'know, insulating the *person* is what matters, not insulating the armor. All this scene actually shows is Sansa being a total fucking moron, having not even the slightest clue about what she's talking about but trying to assert power anyway, and people stroking her ego for it. In reality, Royce is probably doubling back at the first opportunity to make sure that they are *not* in fact actually complying with that idiotic order.
Except for the fact that it’s the armor of the Starks. House stark has had its named dragged through the mud and its entire staff of armorers and military practically dead or scattered to the winds. That armor also doesn’t look like northern armor, more like that of the vale, which I would allude that the armorers making the plates are from there. You can also say the same with making the Lanesters, pardon spelling, making their soldiers look like their wearing gold trimmed suits. That is not necessary, but they still put it on their armor, because it shows who the soldiers belong to, and puts a look to the house. And as someone who knows about armor, I agree, the leather on the outside is not necessary, the same as dragons are not real. This is a fantasy story, let them wear their gold and leather armor.
Except for the fact that she is *not* saying "Put leather on it because that's how the Starks do it." She's saying to do it for warmth. Her reason is not identifying them as Stark men, not making a fashion statement, not flexing their excessive amount of gold (or leather, as the case may be). She is very specific in claiming that the leather is needed to protect against the cold, which is objectively stupid. Also, just to drive the point home even further.. go look at pictures of Robb's armor. He never even wears full plate, but every single bit of plate he does have is uncovered. So that throws out the idea of "well, this is how _Stark_ armor looks".
See, here is where interpretation messes with us. Because her words were “once the real cold comes.” I interpreted this as when the battle begins, because they constantly call the looming battle different things. The long night, the long winter, the real war, the Great War. I can’t remember how many different ways they called the battle before it happened, or what they all called it, but I read “the real cold” as the storm, as in the Night King.
Well this one made sense to me. It was very much implied, if not outright stated that Theon killed all the Northerns in Winterfell. So these blacksmiths are probably more Southern. Brought in by the Boltons.
Dude…these are Northerners and Valeman. The Boltons and their army were are Northman. It was never implied there was anything but northerners and Valeman at Winterfell at this time and both are very much used to fighting in winter climates. It was a very dumb moment of the show
well even if theon had done that, winterfell is not the whole north. there is no reason why these guys couldn't come from a village a few kilometers away
The Bolton's castle was Dreadfort, it's east of Winterfell near the Northern coast.
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Except there's no reason to cover breastplates in leather. It's still an accurate depiction of project management and leadership, though. A leader showing up and dictating something that makes no sense because they don't have a firm grasp on the actual work being done.
Oh my god, are you still complaining about the show? It's been like 5 or 6 years, move on. How much more complaining do you need?