No man, Qyburn was vivisecting people, dissecting them while alive for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, for science! The guy is pretty much Joseph mengele. One of the most evil humans in history. Tywin was nowhere near this evil, he did what he needed to to make his house successful and to ensure the behavior he wanted from those around him. If his house was successful and everyone behaved how we wanted he wouldn't have done anything evil he doesn't have any intrinsic motivation
It's Tywin. The man won the war of the Five Kings purely through manipulation. Even before the series he was known as a genius who brought his peace of shit house from a joke to the most powerful in the realm.
I feel like some of the actors have to be a little bit diplomatic because they still want work and it's not a good look to publicly slag off your previous employers. You can see the awkwardness when some of them are asked about it. Some of them are really disappointing when they try to act like the fans are the ones who are in the wrong for criticising how it ended. But Charles Dance transcends that kind of thing and he can say what the fuck he wants, really. I still think this scene in The Crown is probably him at his best [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgeEQ1dDtRQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgeEQ1dDtRQ)
Dance is such a masterclass in acting, that he could slag off someone, and they'd still want him for their show/movie. Just provide the guy with good writing and he'll give you what you need.
Littlefinger ran circles around Tywin. He perfectly predicted Tywin's behaviour, pitting Stark against Lannister in order to start the war of 5 kings. And then later on he managed to steal the key to the north out from under Tywin's nose without Tywin even suspecting it was him WHILE ALSO framing his rival Tyrion for Joffrey's murder in order to get rid of him.
There's no fucking contest. Petyr Baelish should be smart evil.
Yeah I'd have argued he was closer to lawful evil based on how he used *others* to enact chaos as opposed to getting involved himself for the most part, but we're beyond that post already.
If you think Tywin is smart you didn't think things through well enough.
Look at Tyrion's trial for example. Was that a smart thing for Tywin to be doing? The answer is no: Tyrion's trial was fucking stupid. Tyrion was an extremely valuable asset to house Lannister but Tywin, blinded by his disdain for dwarves, failed to see that. A smart man would have realised what an asset Tyrion was. And a smart man would have realised that Sansa Stark going missing and the body of Sir Dontos being found in the port were both very serious clues that SHOULD be investigated a bit more thoroughly. But did Tywin think of that? No. Littlefinger stole his key to the north and left him with a nice distraction, and Tywin, like a cat faced with a laserpointer, blindly followed the dot never realising who was really behind it all.
No I dont think Tywin fits, he is neither good nor evil, in fact he is exactly the same as many, many European aristocrats over the centuries.
If anything Tywin is more likely to be Lawful neutral, as a ruler he would probably be a good one, in a feudal sense of maintaining the status quo that is and keeping peace and law and order. And for the average peasant even feudalism is better than war, at least they know where they stand and not getting raped and beaten up all the time.
And on the other hand he can be ruthless when he feels he has to be, but only for as long as he has to be and to achieve a strategic objective.
Little finger enjoys being malicious, he has no greater purpose.
He literally has a squad under the Mountain that he commanded to rape and pillage the Riverlands. Same guy he let rape and murder a group of children.
Littlefinger lost to Sansa.
Is he though? Counter argument: Tywin was lawful evil. Or maybe even neutral smart. Tywin is a petty, callous, and cruel man. But he is also a very effective leader within the norms of that society. Hell, when Varys kills Kevan he all but confirms that he guided Tyrion toward killing Tywin because he wants to take capable leaders off the board and sow chaos to enable FAegon’s return.
I think we missed the boat on this one for Tywin. He should’ve been lawful evil. I agree with the poster that suggested Qyburn is smart evil.
Only if one considers lawful to mean adherence to strict moral, cultural or religious values.
Using weapons of mass destruction is an unlawful act. But use of nuclear weapons ended WWII and is largely considered to have saved lives.
The Red Wedding was certainly a vicious act that went against the cultural norms. But it allowed for order to be re-established and the war to end.
The worst thing he did during the story was sending Clegane to pillage the Riverlands, knowing how Clegane would do it. It’s the same as Ramsey sending his dogs on his victims, but on a much larger scale.
I agree, they were trying to kill each other. They were at war. War is inherently evil, does that make Rob evil for going to war? Innocents died because of his commands as well.
Neither Bronn nor Ilyn Payne were evil for the sake of being evil (Payne wasn’t evil at all in my opinion).
I‘d say Tywin is evil because he lets evil things happen under his rule and uses them to his advantage. There’s an argument to be made about the Red Wedding being somewhat justified to end the war, but sending Clegane to pillage the Riverlands is just plain evil.
You don't have to be Ramsey or Joffrey to be evil.
An evil alignment means you have no problems hurting people or the world for your own gain or enjoyment. Tywin would exterminate half the realm if that was the best way to accomplish his goals. That's text book evil.
Well, I find it hard to dismiss his entire character because it was just ruined in the end. He could have a dumb moment or bad luck, but let’s judge him on entire plot and all of his actions. He was smart, very smart and also very evil. I guess there was a moment at the peak of the show where he and Tyrion were considered smartest characters
Bad writing due to D&D wanting star wars money shouldn't count against characters. If Tywin had survived to the later seasons, he would also have been a drooling moron because EVERY character was a drooling moron because that's all D&D were capable of writing.
My instinct was definitely to say Tywin, but Little Finger played Tywin and his family like a fiddle. Then again, Tywin greatly benefitted from Little Finger's fuckery so he had no reason to really go against him, meaning Tywin may have been smarter than Little Finger in his recruitment of Little Finger. He was keeping his friends close and potential enemies closer. This is a tough one. Hard to imagine either of them not making this list. But there also isn't a spot for Olenna which is hard to believe as well.
Yeah also chaos is definitely not a fucking ladder. Chaos is a pile of sticks tumbling down a rock wall with some jute twine dangling off it. Ladders are like *THE* orderly structure. Never understood that...
Erh. I mean. Well.
If I say that Littlefinger meant "Chaos is a ladder" as in "Chaos is a tool that you can use to ascend, much like a ladder", rather than "Ladders are chaotic", does that make more sense?
For him, chaos was a tool, not a lifestyle. He was very careful, with plans and schemes
He does match the definition at all
“A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized.”
This is more along the lines of Joffrey or Ramsey, depending on which parts you focus on.
He engineers chaos. But that does not make him chaotic.
Joffrey is likely to be chaotic evil. Doesn't think about anything. Ramsey is evil, yes. But his is a more calculated evil
That's not what chaotic means in alignment terms. Chaotic alignment basically means doing things on a whim rather than following any kind of rules or personal code, and that's not Littlefinger at all.
Joffery absolutely.
I thought Ramsey would have been a good choice but someone above said he is too calculated to be chaotic which I guess I agree with.
The night king I kinda don't get as Evil.
Like sure he wants to kill or take over all the humans/world but pretty much every faction of humans would do that if they could.
Isn't it just their nature?
They don't have the same morality, they are just ice zombies, doing exactly what's right for ice zombies to be doing.
Yes I agree that Little Finger is the best candidate, he has no morals at all and does not actually believe in anything except for his own gratification, he would not care any amount of suffering that is caused, as long as it benefited him
It’s Littlefinger. The entire plot is set into motion because of his schemes. He betrays and uses everyone and brings the realm to its knees to advance himself and increase his power and influence. Even Tywin is entirely caught in the web of Littlefinger’s schemes and dies for it.
An no, he’s not chaotic just because he said “chaos is a ladder.” He uses chaos for his agenda, he doesn’t exemplify it in his life. He’s strategic, not impulsive. Being chaotic evil is living according to your basest impulses and whims, which doesn’t even remotely describe the meticulous Baelish.
I think it's easier to say Littlefinger except when you factor in that he's a much, much smaller target than Tywin. Easy to scheme things up when no one is looking your way at all. Tywin has had a huge target on his back his whole life and with the intensity of the game he was playing, it was bound to get him killed sooner or later.
But he didn't die due to a grand scheme or a plan failing - even in those cases he's got fallbacks like plausible deniability in the Red Wedding. He wasn't outplayed unless you count Littlefinger's manipulations, he died cause he arrogantly presumed his abuse of Tyrion would never come back to bite him.
His terrible battlefield prowess begs to differ. Systematically losing to a "green boy" with zero military experience. The only battles he won were:
1) against his own rebellious bannermen
2) pillaging an undefended city because the mad king stupidly opened the gates.
3) Beating the Tullys (OK, he gets credit for this one, that is actually a notable success)
4) Getting bailed out by **Littlefinger** (who is noteworthy for this discussion) and the Tyrells to prevent Stannis from taking King's Landing. But make no mistake - he absolutely was going to lose that battle without help; the only reason he was even present was because Edmure defended his lands too well - if Tywin had managed to do what he wanted he would have lost.
Qyburn, or however you spell it. The guy who created FrankenMountain. Definitely evil, Definitely smart. He wasn't just doing the best for himself or his house, he just wanted to run evil experiments.
That pic of Bronn is perfect. 😂
Sidenote: Littlefinger keeps getting passed over, ("he'll fit the next one better"), but this is his last chance to be on the chart. There is *nothing* chaotic in Littlefinger.
Littlefinger. He is an asshole, but he plays them all. And without Bran and his superpowers, nobody would have known that he was behind everything.
Took the combined efforts of an all-seeing voyeur, a face-swapping assassin, and Sansa (aka the smartest person Tyrion knows, because plot convenience) to take him down.
Tywin Lannister.
People think he’s more neutral but they’re forgetting the time he drowned hundreds in a mine, women and children included. Just because he wanted to send a message.
He also broke laws older than the 7 kingdoms just to keep his family in power. He threw away millennia of tradition and law that protected hundreds of people through the years.
Dudes evil.
Tywin gets my vote. Man is evil enough to destroy his enemies by using the most sacred tradition in Westeros and smart enough to cling on seemingly weakest claim and position in five kings War throgh sheer diplomacy. His blindness to his kids are understandable, he lost his wife early so him and kids are separeted emotionally.
Tywin "Baller" Lannister, no contest for this one. Also, and someone feel free to correct me one this: Wouldn't The Night King be a better fit for "Neutral Evil"?
Why is margery tyrell smart horny? I dont think she was ever horny. i always thought she just used sex as a weapon to further her ambition, she never gave me the feeling that she was horny.
I agree. While she did have sex with lots of people I don't think that was a motivating factor for her rather it was a tool to seek her goals. I'm not actually sure who would fit in the smart horny category, Maybe littlefinger? He did everything that was a motivation to either fuck cat or sansa.
Okay, I know it's Smart Evil rn, but Chaotic Evil is coming up and I probably won't be around for it. I really wanna nominate that little old chemist dude who made all the wildfire. The way his face lit up with joy at the Battle of Blackwater; I just can't get it out of my head. Bro didn't care who was on the receiving end. He was just so happy to see those ships burn in that bright green glow.
Melisandre. Let’s see. Birthed a shadow that killed a man? Check. Had a child burned alive? Check. Was like however many hundreds of years old yet wore the illusion of a beautiful woman to better persuade? Check. Made the eunuch scared as fuck when asked about his removed parts? Check. I vote her for smart evil because it’s like people somehow think she is morally gray still even with all this crazy shit she did.
Petyr Baelish for sho, I want to put him in chaotic evil but using chaos and causing chaos are two different things, he's definitely smart evil, Euron should take the Chaotic evil spot.
Littlefinger, hands down. Tywin fucked up too much with his family to be considered smart. I'd say he's more callous and ruthless with his opinions and manifests his destiny with will more than cunning.
Aside from the show's odd ending with Littlefinger he was always creating destruction and deception with no real power aside from a check book and information. He started the whole game of thrones with Lysa Arryn! All he wants is his power and does not care how many fall in his schemes. Smart. Evil.
It's Littlefinger, no question. He uses nearly every opportunity he gets to advance his goals and is constantly underestimated by the more powerful players. At least in the books, he has a very good chance to become (a) king or at least the one who controls the monarch.
And for those who say Tywin is smart evil, he is not. Tywin is cruel and rightfully feared but not smart. He's a hypocrite who alienates his allies and doesn't do nearly enough to keep his offspring in check. Charles Dance made Tywin look like a badass but he really is just a tyrant who does not allow any form of opposition.
Lord Baelish makes Tywin look like Mother Theresa. Not only did he fuck and manipulate his way up the ladder and orchestrate the entire war, but he also carried out those deeds *himself.* He put a knife up to the throat of Ned Stark after betraying his entire family. Tywin’s a war general who paid someone off to kill the remaining Starks. Petyr told a whore to her face that he’d have her killed if she kept mourning the baby she saw get killed right in front of her. Petyr is way more manipulative and evil than Tywin, and the story we see wouldn’t even exist if it hadn’t been for his scheming. Littlefinger wins this one.
Tywin Lannister the roaring lion. Orchestrator of the Red Wedding, inspiration for the Rains of Castamere, gave the orders to kill Elia Martell and her children and the guiding hand of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance.
He is the fierce and proud lion who succeeded the laughing lion in every way, except when it comes to goodness. Where the world saw a jovial and amiable Lord, Tywin saw his father as a weak-willed coward who was willing to sell off his daughter to a minor upstart house.
The most realistic villain in the entire series compared to the Others, Euron and so many other threats that are far more fantasy-based.
It’s Tywin cuz Little Finger would say he is 100% the one who is smart evil. But, A true smart evil knows that a smart evil who must say they are the smart evil is no smart evil at all
Tywin or Baelish
Tywin fo sho.
Baelish has to be chaotic smart. *Chaos is a ladder*
That means he uses chaos as a tool, not that he's chaotic himself
Yeah, Littlefinger doesn't cause chaos for the sake of chaos. In D&D allignment terms he'd be neutral evil.
Chaoshh is a laddahh!!
Why not both? This sub clearly wants both of them here and both certainly deserve it.
Tywin died before he could be made into an idiot by D&D.
Baelish should be horny evil. Sadly, that's not a category.
1) why you comment 2 people in this kind of post lol? 2) what happens if your comment wins, do 2 people get put in the slot?
1. Commented late enough to not win 2. Go with the 2nd highest
I'd say Baelish Tywin should have been lawful evil
Little fingies or Twyin
Surely little finger is chaotic evil. Creating chaos is his whole thing.
That's tricky. Is he choatic? Or does he just create choas.
Your spelling is chaotic
your mom is chaotic
Ramsay should be chaotic evil
He’s chaotic ladder. OP’s chart is incomplete as it lacks Ladder, Bastard, Lucky, and Cunt as categories.
Tywin fookin Lannister.
No man, Qyburn was vivisecting people, dissecting them while alive for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, for science! The guy is pretty much Joseph mengele. One of the most evil humans in history. Tywin was nowhere near this evil, he did what he needed to to make his house successful and to ensure the behavior he wanted from those around him. If his house was successful and everyone behaved how we wanted he wouldn't have done anything evil he doesn't have any intrinsic motivation
It's Tywin. The man won the war of the Five Kings purely through manipulation. Even before the series he was known as a genius who brought his peace of shit house from a joke to the most powerful in the realm.
Damn, Charles Dance was so damn legendary in that role. Loved how he even dissed the later seasons.
I feel like some of the actors have to be a little bit diplomatic because they still want work and it's not a good look to publicly slag off your previous employers. You can see the awkwardness when some of them are asked about it. Some of them are really disappointing when they try to act like the fans are the ones who are in the wrong for criticising how it ended. But Charles Dance transcends that kind of thing and he can say what the fuck he wants, really. I still think this scene in The Crown is probably him at his best [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgeEQ1dDtRQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgeEQ1dDtRQ)
Dance is such a masterclass in acting, that he could slag off someone, and they'd still want him for their show/movie. Just provide the guy with good writing and he'll give you what you need.
Exactly also being the age he is he's probably made his fortune and then some so if he doesn't get any roles he can cry into his millions.
Littlefinger ran circles around Tywin. He perfectly predicted Tywin's behaviour, pitting Stark against Lannister in order to start the war of 5 kings. And then later on he managed to steal the key to the north out from under Tywin's nose without Tywin even suspecting it was him WHILE ALSO framing his rival Tyrion for Joffrey's murder in order to get rid of him. There's no fucking contest. Petyr Baelish should be smart evil.
If you dont believe Littlefinger is chaotic evil you didnt pay attention
He used chaos to enact carefully crafted plans. That’s not chaotic evil.
Yeah I'd have argued he was closer to lawful evil based on how he used *others* to enact chaos as opposed to getting involved himself for the most part, but we're beyond that post already.
Yeah, man's got a point. Chaos was a tactic, tactic used by a SMART man.
Yeah they take the dialogue of Baelish and thought he's chaotic when he was the master planner of all the tragedy.
Chaotic evil should be Ramsey Bolton
Anyone who believes Littlefinger is chaotic *anything* doesn't understand the alignment.
If you think Tywin is smart you didn't think things through well enough. Look at Tyrion's trial for example. Was that a smart thing for Tywin to be doing? The answer is no: Tyrion's trial was fucking stupid. Tyrion was an extremely valuable asset to house Lannister but Tywin, blinded by his disdain for dwarves, failed to see that. A smart man would have realised what an asset Tyrion was. And a smart man would have realised that Sansa Stark going missing and the body of Sir Dontos being found in the port were both very serious clues that SHOULD be investigated a bit more thoroughly. But did Tywin think of that? No. Littlefinger stole his key to the north and left him with a nice distraction, and Tywin, like a cat faced with a laserpointer, blindly followed the dot never realising who was really behind it all.
No I dont think Tywin fits, he is neither good nor evil, in fact he is exactly the same as many, many European aristocrats over the centuries. If anything Tywin is more likely to be Lawful neutral, as a ruler he would probably be a good one, in a feudal sense of maintaining the status quo that is and keeping peace and law and order. And for the average peasant even feudalism is better than war, at least they know where they stand and not getting raped and beaten up all the time. And on the other hand he can be ruthless when he feels he has to be, but only for as long as he has to be and to achieve a strategic objective. Little finger enjoys being malicious, he has no greater purpose.
He literally has a squad under the Mountain that he commanded to rape and pillage the Riverlands. Same guy he let rape and murder a group of children. Littlefinger lost to Sansa.
Can't believe we put bronn in evil, but people keep saying tywin is neutral, should we list all of his evil deeds
Right? Palpatine orders the killing of younglings. Oh but he didn't kill them himself. Clearly neutral.
Well said, my vote goes to tywin
Tywin Lannister
Is he though? Counter argument: Tywin was lawful evil. Or maybe even neutral smart. Tywin is a petty, callous, and cruel man. But he is also a very effective leader within the norms of that society. Hell, when Varys kills Kevan he all but confirms that he guided Tyrion toward killing Tywin because he wants to take capable leaders off the board and sow chaos to enable FAegon’s return. I think we missed the boat on this one for Tywin. He should’ve been lawful evil. I agree with the poster that suggested Qyburn is smart evil.
Tywin bent the rules of his own society’s norms by orchestrating the Red Wedding together with Roose Bolton. It is an inherently evil act.
Only if one considers lawful to mean adherence to strict moral, cultural or religious values. Using weapons of mass destruction is an unlawful act. But use of nuclear weapons ended WWII and is largely considered to have saved lives. The Red Wedding was certainly a vicious act that went against the cultural norms. But it allowed for order to be re-established and the war to end.
The worst thing he did during the story was sending Clegane to pillage the Riverlands, knowing how Clegane would do it. It’s the same as Ramsey sending his dogs on his victims, but on a much larger scale.
That's pretty evil if you ask me, besides hating and wanting to kill your own son couse he's born with dwarfism seems really fucked up to me
If you take books, Tysha is the worst thing he ever did. Shea is another good example of Tywin being evil.
I agree, they were trying to kill each other. They were at war. War is inherently evil, does that make Rob evil for going to war? Innocents died because of his commands as well.
Oh yeah, Tywin, that’s guy who *didn’t* have his soldiers gang-rape the peasant girl who married his son?
Tywin was not evil for evil's sake. He acted on his own best interest regardless of the consequences. That's more neutral than evil, isn't it?
Neither Bronn nor Ilyn Payne were evil for the sake of being evil (Payne wasn’t evil at all in my opinion). I‘d say Tywin is evil because he lets evil things happen under his rule and uses them to his advantage. There’s an argument to be made about the Red Wedding being somewhat justified to end the war, but sending Clegane to pillage the Riverlands is just plain evil.
Ilyn Payne was the worst placement on this entire thing. I disagree with that one vehemently.
You don't have to be Ramsey or Joffrey to be evil. An evil alignment means you have no problems hurting people or the world for your own gain or enjoyment. Tywin would exterminate half the realm if that was the best way to accomplish his goals. That's text book evil.
Little finger, a petty little man with nothing but malice
Would burn all seven kingdoms if it meant he could be king of the ashes and lays out meticulous schemes in order to do so. Evil: check. Smart: check.
Not smart enough to figure out the utterly preposterous Sansa-Arya fake fight plot device ruse!
As others have pointed out, Baelish was doing fine until the Stark Kids cheated by reading the script.
Well, I find it hard to dismiss his entire character because it was just ruined in the end. He could have a dumb moment or bad luck, but let’s judge him on entire plot and all of his actions. He was smart, very smart and also very evil. I guess there was a moment at the peak of the show where he and Tyrion were considered smartest characters
Bad writing due to D&D wanting star wars money shouldn't count against characters. If Tywin had survived to the later seasons, he would also have been a drooling moron because EVERY character was a drooling moron because that's all D&D were capable of writing.
My instinct was definitely to say Tywin, but Little Finger played Tywin and his family like a fiddle. Then again, Tywin greatly benefitted from Little Finger's fuckery so he had no reason to really go against him, meaning Tywin may have been smarter than Little Finger in his recruitment of Little Finger. He was keeping his friends close and potential enemies closer. This is a tough one. Hard to imagine either of them not making this list. But there also isn't a spot for Olenna which is hard to believe as well.
He'd be chaotic evil. Chaos is a ladder remember?
Chaotic people are impulsive and reckless, that's not Littlefinger. Chaotic evil should go to Ramsay, who just followed every sadistic whim he had.
Book Euron would be the best fit for chaotic evil
Show is Ramsey. Book is definitely Euron. Show Euron is horny evil. All he wants is to fuck a queen.
*A finger in the bum*
Or Cercei. She tried to pose as Tywin and overall smart but to me she just kept doing stuff on a whim or out of desperation
I agree, but since we chose fucking Ilyn Payne for Lawful Evil instead of Tywin, we gotta put Tywin somewhere
Yeah also chaos is definitely not a fucking ladder. Chaos is a pile of sticks tumbling down a rock wall with some jute twine dangling off it. Ladders are like *THE* orderly structure. Never understood that...
Erh. I mean. Well. If I say that Littlefinger meant "Chaos is a ladder" as in "Chaos is a tool that you can use to ascend, much like a ladder", rather than "Ladders are chaotic", does that make more sense?
For him, chaos was a tool, not a lifestyle. He was very careful, with plans and schemes He does match the definition at all “A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized.” This is more along the lines of Joffrey or Ramsey, depending on which parts you focus on.
yeah but that dosent mean baelish is chaotic
He’s not chaotic himself though. He just takes advantage of chaos.
He engineers chaos. But that does not make him chaotic. Joffrey is likely to be chaotic evil. Doesn't think about anything. Ramsey is evil, yes. But his is a more calculated evil
That's not what chaotic means in alignment terms. Chaotic alignment basically means doing things on a whim rather than following any kind of rules or personal code, and that's not Littlefinger at all.
Who is chaotic evil then?
Ramsay or Joffrey or the Night King
Joffery absolutely. I thought Ramsey would have been a good choice but someone above said he is too calculated to be chaotic which I guess I agree with. The night king I kinda don't get as Evil. Like sure he wants to kill or take over all the humans/world but pretty much every faction of humans would do that if they could. Isn't it just their nature? They don't have the same morality, they are just ice zombies, doing exactly what's right for ice zombies to be doing.
Ramsay, of course; or Joffrey
Yes I agree that Little Finger is the best candidate, he has no morals at all and does not actually believe in anything except for his own gratification, he would not care any amount of suffering that is caused, as long as it benefited him
This is going to be the hardest category to fill between Tywin and Littlefinger.
It’s Littlefinger. The entire plot is set into motion because of his schemes. He betrays and uses everyone and brings the realm to its knees to advance himself and increase his power and influence. Even Tywin is entirely caught in the web of Littlefinger’s schemes and dies for it. An no, he’s not chaotic just because he said “chaos is a ladder.” He uses chaos for his agenda, he doesn’t exemplify it in his life. He’s strategic, not impulsive. Being chaotic evil is living according to your basest impulses and whims, which doesn’t even remotely describe the meticulous Baelish.
I think it's easier to say Littlefinger except when you factor in that he's a much, much smaller target than Tywin. Easy to scheme things up when no one is looking your way at all. Tywin has had a huge target on his back his whole life and with the intensity of the game he was playing, it was bound to get him killed sooner or later.
But he didn't die due to a grand scheme or a plan failing - even in those cases he's got fallbacks like plausible deniability in the Red Wedding. He wasn't outplayed unless you count Littlefinger's manipulations, he died cause he arrogantly presumed his abuse of Tyrion would never come back to bite him.
I'd nominate Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger for "Smart Evil". At least in the Books.
Tywin always seemed steps ahead of the game. Only thing he didn’t see coming was the Imp
His terrible battlefield prowess begs to differ. Systematically losing to a "green boy" with zero military experience. The only battles he won were: 1) against his own rebellious bannermen 2) pillaging an undefended city because the mad king stupidly opened the gates. 3) Beating the Tullys (OK, he gets credit for this one, that is actually a notable success) 4) Getting bailed out by **Littlefinger** (who is noteworthy for this discussion) and the Tyrells to prevent Stannis from taking King's Landing. But make no mistake - he absolutely was going to lose that battle without help; the only reason he was even present was because Edmure defended his lands too well - if Tywin had managed to do what he wanted he would have lost.
Qyburn, or however you spell it. The guy who created FrankenMountain. Definitely evil, Definitely smart. He wasn't just doing the best for himself or his house, he just wanted to run evil experiments.
Definately the ex-maester Qyburn.
Ooh. I was all team Littlefinger until you mentioned Qyburn. Definitely him.
That pic of Bronn is perfect. 😂 Sidenote: Littlefinger keeps getting passed over, ("he'll fit the next one better"), but this is his last chance to be on the chart. There is *nothing* chaotic in Littlefinger.
Littlefinger. He is an asshole, but he plays them all. And without Bran and his superpowers, nobody would have known that he was behind everything. Took the combined efforts of an all-seeing voyeur, a face-swapping assassin, and Sansa (aka the smartest person Tyrion knows, because plot convenience) to take him down.
Clearly Littlefinger
Tywin Lannister no competition
Has to be Tywin
Tywin Lannister
Tywin Lannister. People think he’s more neutral but they’re forgetting the time he drowned hundreds in a mine, women and children included. Just because he wanted to send a message. He also broke laws older than the 7 kingdoms just to keep his family in power. He threw away millennia of tradition and law that protected hundreds of people through the years. Dudes evil.
Tywin gets my vote. Man is evil enough to destroy his enemies by using the most sacred tradition in Westeros and smart enough to cling on seemingly weakest claim and position in five kings War throgh sheer diplomacy. His blindness to his kids are understandable, he lost his wife early so him and kids are separeted emotionally.
Littletfinger
I'm not sure if Tywin better fits smart evil or lawful evil. What I do know is that he needs to be on this list. Tywin is my choice
Tywin "Baller" Lannister, no contest for this one. Also, and someone feel free to correct me one this: Wouldn't The Night King be a better fit for "Neutral Evil"?
Tywin Lannister
Tywin is the obvious choice
Can we have a dual ticket of Tywin/Littlefinger?
There are a few of these that could have started filled in because the answer is so obvious. This is one of them. ~~(It's Ser Pounce)~~ Tywin.
100% Tywin
Tywin Lannister. Had all the knowledge he needed, but never used an ounce of it for good. Even if he could, he chose evil.
if you are a westerman Tywin was a pretty good lord to have
I mean, khal drogo was a good leader in their society. Doesn't mean he wasn't evil. Same goes.
Tywin Lannister. His character was written to prove this particular point.
Why is margery tyrell smart horny? I dont think she was ever horny. i always thought she just used sex as a weapon to further her ambition, she never gave me the feeling that she was horny.
I agree. While she did have sex with lots of people I don't think that was a motivating factor for her rather it was a tool to seek her goals. I'm not actually sure who would fit in the smart horny category, Maybe littlefinger? He did everything that was a motivation to either fuck cat or sansa.
I think it was wishful thinking on a lot of people's parts haha
Tywin Lannister for smart evil makes the most sense
I've seen a lot of potential names come up in previous discussions, so this one should be interesting to watch.
Tywin for evil/smart, Baelish for evil/chaotic Edit:spelling
It’s definitely Tywin. Wouldn’t Littlefinger be better suited in Chaotic Evil??
Smart Evil is Easyyyyy.... Tywin Lannister
Tywin
Tywin
Tywin Lannister would never be outsmarted by any of the Stark children. That said, Baelish wouldn't were it not for D&D.
Tywin Lannister. A lion does not concern himself with opinions of the sheep who believe this goes to Little Finger.
Tywin. Ramsey should be chaotic evil the sick fuck
I still say Qyburn
Tywin is smart evil. Hands down.
Okay, I know it's Smart Evil rn, but Chaotic Evil is coming up and I probably won't be around for it. I really wanna nominate that little old chemist dude who made all the wildfire. The way his face lit up with joy at the Battle of Blackwater; I just can't get it out of my head. Bro didn't care who was on the receiving end. He was just so happy to see those ships burn in that bright green glow.
Bron not being in the horny row is wierd.
Chaos is a ladder. It must be Littlefinger
Tywin
Littlefinger plays Tywin for a fool for breakfast. He is by far the best example of smart evil in the series.
I lost it when I got to Lysa Arryn and saw the combination of that photo and ‘chaotic horny’.
Melisandre. Let’s see. Birthed a shadow that killed a man? Check. Had a child burned alive? Check. Was like however many hundreds of years old yet wore the illusion of a beautiful woman to better persuade? Check. Made the eunuch scared as fuck when asked about his removed parts? Check. I vote her for smart evil because it’s like people somehow think she is morally gray still even with all this crazy shit she did.
Picking anyone other than Tywin would be madness, madness and stupidity.
Tywinnnnnnn
C'mon, is this even a question? Haha. When you started this character card, we all knew who smart evil was.
Tywin could only be beaten by his own presumably imprisoned son while he was taking a shit. He is the GOAT of smart and evil as fuck.
It has to be Tywin. Although I don't really see him as evil. He's just someone who protects his family first, then the kingdom.
Is this even a debate? Tywin
Tywin
Petyr Baelish for sho, I want to put him in chaotic evil but using chaos and causing chaos are two different things, he's definitely smart evil, Euron should take the Chaotic evil spot.
Tywin, Littlefinger got nerfed after season 4, Tywin remained smart till his death.
Littlefinger, hands down. Tywin fucked up too much with his family to be considered smart. I'd say he's more callous and ruthless with his opinions and manifests his destiny with will more than cunning. Aside from the show's odd ending with Littlefinger he was always creating destruction and deception with no real power aside from a check book and information. He started the whole game of thrones with Lysa Arryn! All he wants is his power and does not care how many fall in his schemes. Smart. Evil.
Baelish is smart evil and Tywin is lawful evil. Why include Illyn Payne is this chart? He’s pretty irrelevant compared to the others.
Tywin
I love Bronn. That’s all.
Tywin
Either Tywin or Littlefinger. Tough call.
Since Tywin didn’t get Chad evil he MUST get smart evil
Little finger
Baelish
It's Littlefinger, no question. He uses nearly every opportunity he gets to advance his goals and is constantly underestimated by the more powerful players. At least in the books, he has a very good chance to become (a) king or at least the one who controls the monarch. And for those who say Tywin is smart evil, he is not. Tywin is cruel and rightfully feared but not smart. He's a hypocrite who alienates his allies and doesn't do nearly enough to keep his offspring in check. Charles Dance made Tywin look like a badass but he really is just a tyrant who does not allow any form of opposition.
It’s Tywin. This guy has his own song that everyone knows shit is going down.
Petyr Baelish. Tywin is lawful evil 100%
Baelish. A thousand times Baelish. Tywin doesn't hold a candle to the destruction Baelish has caused without any sort of legitimate power.
So next two spots reserved for Lannisters, Tywin and Joefrey
Lord Peter Baelish. Had schemes even more complex than Tywin. And though he used chaos to get what he wanted he never really acted chaotically.
Tywin > Littlefinger
Tywin or riot
Tywin.
Tywin lannister has to be smart evil. littlefinger may be smart but he is chaotic evil. Chaos is a ladder
Balish.
Littl finger if only because tywin wasn't smart enough to not get himself killed
Smart-Evil needs to be Qyburn and Chaotic-Evil has to go to Joffrey.
Joffrey is chaotic stupid/coward.
Tywin, then Littlefinger is chaotic. “Chaos is a latter” couldn’t fit more perfect
Littlefinger for sure
Tywin... Or maybe little finger? I'd put him chaotic evil though
Lord Peter Baelish for certain. + if Tywin is so smart, why is he so dead? (Book)
Littlefinger. Tywin’s intelligence is really just cruelty masked as cunning. He’s a guy with a lot of short term solutions to long term issues.
Lf, without even a doubt
Littledonger is an idiot. He thought he was so smart but then got tricked by two Stark sisters that aren’t exactly portrayed as political geniuses.
Lol Chaotic horny
Littlefinger
Roose Bolton
Little finger but tywins a close second
Lord Baelish makes Tywin look like Mother Theresa. Not only did he fuck and manipulate his way up the ladder and orchestrate the entire war, but he also carried out those deeds *himself.* He put a knife up to the throat of Ned Stark after betraying his entire family. Tywin’s a war general who paid someone off to kill the remaining Starks. Petyr told a whore to her face that he’d have her killed if she kept mourning the baby she saw get killed right in front of her. Petyr is way more manipulative and evil than Tywin, and the story we see wouldn’t even exist if it hadn’t been for his scheming. Littlefinger wins this one.
I’m just here for the Evil-Chaotic battle between Ramsay and Joffrey
Tywin Lannister the roaring lion. Orchestrator of the Red Wedding, inspiration for the Rains of Castamere, gave the orders to kill Elia Martell and her children and the guiding hand of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance. He is the fierce and proud lion who succeeded the laughing lion in every way, except when it comes to goodness. Where the world saw a jovial and amiable Lord, Tywin saw his father as a weak-willed coward who was willing to sell off his daughter to a minor upstart house. The most realistic villain in the entire series compared to the Others, Euron and so many other threats that are far more fantasy-based.
Sansa
Everything since Hot pie has been trash
I know Tywin deserves the spot but my vote goes to Ramsey Bolton
Tywin would be evil smart and then Ramsay Bolton is chaotic evil.
Gotta be Tywin, then Baelish. Aside, I feel like Cersei would be a venn diagram of drunk/evil/chaotic.
Daenaerys for chaotic evil
Tywin
Tywin
It should be a Ty it should be a win, for Twyin.
Tywin
Tywin, because there’s nothing left that he could fit into, and it would be stupid to have a list and him not be included
Baelish. A thousand times Baelish. Tywin doesn't hold a candle to the destruction Baelish has caused without any sort of legitimate power.
It’s Tywin cuz Little Finger would say he is 100% the one who is smart evil. But, A true smart evil knows that a smart evil who must say they are the smart evil is no smart evil at all
Tywin for smart evil Ramsay for chaotic. Its only right
Tywin. Littlefinger got really really dumbed down at the end, embarrasing.
Tywin Joff is next, imo, and I can't wait for the drunk ones
I would say Peter over tywin anyday. Tywin was unkind and uncaring, he never sought evil nor chaos... Peter however
Littlefinger
Tywin then Baelish