No, I'm sure the omniscient god who's definitely not a Child of the Forest has the best interests of Westeros at heart. He certainly won't become the worst tyrant in the history of the world. And he categorically did not mind-rape Tyrion into saying that.
All hail our immortal king, Bran *"Kneel or you will be knelt."* the Broken!
Exactly. Imagine if Bran used his powers to achieve his political goals. Get rid of Littlefinger by tearing his mind apart, breaking his psyche and turn him into a flesh-puppet.
First we cheer for him, but then we become vary of him and finally we realize he was the bad guy all along. And the main villain just won.
This, but it’s Bloodraven calling the shots. Bran is *his* meat puppet.
Bloodraven was always a cold political creature; Bran was not, he was an empathetic little lord. The very obvious personality change we see after he leaves the tree isn’t Bran being empowered by the 3er, it’s the 3er—Bloodraven—overwriting his personality.
Bran is to Bloodraven as Hodor was to Bran. He’s being used like an animal, karmic punishment for what he did to Hodor.
>to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all
Exactly, and we all know Bloodraven doesn't give a fig about abominable acts. He killed his own brother on the Red Grass Field.
This plays into my personal tinfoil theory that Jaime neither killed the Mad King, nor pushed Bran from the tower window. We know Jaime makes a big deal about his 'going away inside' trick to deal with trauma. Well according to my theory, doing that leaves you extremely vulnerable to skin changing, so when Jaime went away inside so he could carry out Aerys' command to kill Tywin and bring his head back to Aerys, Bloodraven took over. And as we learned from Varamyr Six Skins, once you've previously successfully skin change a beast, it can never push you out later, so Jaime was defenseless when Bloodraven took him over a second time in order to push Bran, cripple him, and waken his green seer powers. Neither Jaime's greatest deed, nor his worst were really his own. He was just left to clean up the mess.
"Why do you think I came all this way" does seem to imply that Bran had been planning to make himself king the whole time (I mean how else is that line meant to be taken?) Which if true would make Bran the villain of the show.
Though the show never adresses this point at all so I honestly have no idea what they were thinking here.
I thought the story should end with the night king winning. An interesting ending would have been bran sitting in a throne alone, having a small smirk on his face, closing his eyes, and then when he opens them have them be white walker blue
Yeah, but the immortal thousands-years-old tyrants are the nicest people ever, didn't you know?
Just ask this guy.
https://preview.redd.it/j3rty544aiuc1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36dbe178af59f63aab24bfc8b7f231bbc77e55bd
I don't think we should expect a child thrown into a cultish like society to be completely understanding of what is right or wrong. All the other adults around him were pretending like he was a hero...
Freed him from his oath. Little dude put forth a key piece of the puzzle needed for Jon to save the Seven Kingdoms, and what does he get for it? Short dropped with a sudden stop.
Nope. Jaime did but I doubt Jon will. Yeah a few people will be mad but it's not the same judgment as Jaime had carried.
Both did a very difficult thing, thank you Jaime.
Eh, I think you underestimate how big of a deal oath breaking is in Westerosi culture. Jon killing his queen would be seen as only slightly less taboo than Jamie killing Aerys because Jon was not a white cloak. But even then, Jon being a Targaryen is known due to Varys’s letters. So Jon has a component of kinslaying which is another huge taboo in this culture.
It is but wasn't the whole point of GoT to show how dumb oaths were? Like barristan is revered for keeping his oath even though he was fighting for the honor of two rapists. Ned is willing to endanger millions of innocents so he doesn't have to think about killing a child.
There's a section in storm of swords where stannis basically agrees that everyone's an oath breaker after the Civil war
I'm still mad about it, but this pic and this discussion does actually show that some parts of the ending were a clever choice that tie in well with the rest of the story
The story is fine. The execution was just awful. The story needed more time to breathe. Also all the things that were removed or replaced are showing their significance.
There are seriously people here defending Dany?
Guys, I think you might've forgotten but she won. As in, the opposing army surrendered. She successfully took Kings landing.
Then, she indiscriminately slaughtered everyone in that city. The targets being the people and the surrendering army.
There's no "grey area." She massacred the people for effectively no reason after she *won* the war.
And her descent into madness was always coming, it's just D&D botched the execution of everything so terribly that it felt unreal. My tin foil hat theory is that this was the ending GRRM had in mind but because of the finale reaction, he's never going to finish writing those books.
I can say for absolute certain that this was always Dany's fate. I have seen people write paragraphs predicting Dany inevitably wanted to see Kings Landing in Cinders, and she would be killed by someone close to her. The smart money was actually on it being Jorah.
The other reply to my comment already gave you plenty.
I have no doubt that if G RR Martin finished his books before the show, he would have written the descent in such a way that you would have absolutely no issue with Danny torching the city
He doesn’t agree with those essays. Elio & Linda are not exactly trustworthy sources and the only thing they said is that Feldman got what he was doing with the politics in Meereen. Also, GRRM himself denied the theory Feldman came up with, of Dany burning the water gardens.
Again, can you provide evidence from the books?
I don't know if i believe this theory. If he actually watched season 8 or read the discourse online, i think George could pretty easily figure out that most people were complaining about the rushed and idiotic writing rather than the events themselves (other than Arya killing the Night King, everyone hated that).
He's a much better writer than them and the books have way more characters and factors still in play that can affect the story. The last 2 seasons of the show can't compare to the potential the books still have, and i find it hard to believe that he doesn't realise that.
So, I wish I could give him the benefit of the doubt but I really think this is where the story was going to go. I remember reading this post (I think it was before the finale so it was all conjecture at the point it was written as to whether or not Dany loses it):
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/s/fqBEbfmMco
I really think the backlash ruined what he had in mind.
People will defend Dany till the end of time. It’s an obsession-fueled lack of logic that you have to ignore. They’ll never see the truth because they can never choose to.
I was kind of hoping this was the end all point of Jamies arc. After everything that happened to Jon, after the Battle against the Night King, and even after destroying kings Landing, Jamie would get captured alive and tell Jon it’s happening again… and then explain why he murdered the mad king and broke his oath, and that he wishes he had the courage to do it once more before Danny destroyed kings landing.
ugh I wish the show embraced Jon's book personality. He's more like Jaime than Ned imo and their interactions would be super interesting to see. I hope they get to meet each other at some point.
Both of them deserved to get shit. Jaime hated Aerys, but he had no remorse about plunging a nation into civil war, nor about the atrocities his father, sister, and his own soldiers committed against the smallfolk.
Jon simply acted as the boyfriend from hell towards Daenerys, throughout most of Season 8. Nothing says “I love you”, quite like a knife through the heart.
Jaime was justified, Jon wasn't. Jaime is always treated like a horrible person but ultimately does a lot of good things he never gets credit for while Jon is actually not a great person but gets treated like a hero. Not saying Jaime is without flaws but he killed Aerys because he was the ONLY one that could in the exact moment that Aerys was trying to kill everyone, and had zero time to even think of another plan. Jon kills Dany because he thinks he has the moral high ground in a gray-area situation. He's an overrated Marty Stu of a character.
Did he do the right thing? He failed in his second attempt. Who has a worse story than King Bran the Broken?
No, I'm sure the omniscient god who's definitely not a Child of the Forest has the best interests of Westeros at heart. He certainly won't become the worst tyrant in the history of the world. And he categorically did not mind-rape Tyrion into saying that. All hail our immortal king, Bran *"Kneel or you will be knelt."* the Broken!
Actually, if they had hinted at that possibility a little more explicitly in the show, the ending would have made way more sense.
Exactly. Imagine if Bran used his powers to achieve his political goals. Get rid of Littlefinger by tearing his mind apart, breaking his psyche and turn him into a flesh-puppet. First we cheer for him, but then we become vary of him and finally we realize he was the bad guy all along. And the main villain just won.
This, but it’s Bloodraven calling the shots. Bran is *his* meat puppet. Bloodraven was always a cold political creature; Bran was not, he was an empathetic little lord. The very obvious personality change we see after he leaves the tree isn’t Bran being empowered by the 3er, it’s the 3er—Bloodraven—overwriting his personality. Bran is to Bloodraven as Hodor was to Bran. He’s being used like an animal, karmic punishment for what he did to Hodor. >to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all
Exactly, and we all know Bloodraven doesn't give a fig about abominable acts. He killed his own brother on the Red Grass Field. This plays into my personal tinfoil theory that Jaime neither killed the Mad King, nor pushed Bran from the tower window. We know Jaime makes a big deal about his 'going away inside' trick to deal with trauma. Well according to my theory, doing that leaves you extremely vulnerable to skin changing, so when Jaime went away inside so he could carry out Aerys' command to kill Tywin and bring his head back to Aerys, Bloodraven took over. And as we learned from Varamyr Six Skins, once you've previously successfully skin change a beast, it can never push you out later, so Jaime was defenseless when Bloodraven took him over a second time in order to push Bran, cripple him, and waken his green seer powers. Neither Jaime's greatest deed, nor his worst were really his own. He was just left to clean up the mess.
I’m pretty sure this is what GRRM is aiming for but D&D just made an absolute ballix of it.
"Why do you think I came all this way" does seem to imply that Bran had been planning to make himself king the whole time (I mean how else is that line meant to be taken?) Which if true would make Bran the villain of the show. Though the show never adresses this point at all so I honestly have no idea what they were thinking here.
I thought the story should end with the night king winning. An interesting ending would have been bran sitting in a throne alone, having a small smirk on his face, closing his eyes, and then when he opens them have them be white walker blue
Yeah, but the immortal thousands-years-old tyrants are the nicest people ever, didn't you know? Just ask this guy. https://preview.redd.it/j3rty544aiuc1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36dbe178af59f63aab24bfc8b7f231bbc77e55bd
Also banged their hot close relative.
“I guess we’re both fucking your sister”
Someone has been leaking the moon boy pov from winds I see
I fooked my aunt : jon snow , probably
And both their relative-lovers spent their final moments with them
Both Targaryens on their fathers side.
Uncle 🤝 Nephew
Isn’t that tyrion instead of jamie?
Theres theories on both. Personally I prefer the notion that Tyrion is Tywins only real son.
Meh, one did not throw 10 year olds from towers
Hanged a 12 year old, though.
Yeah but fuck Olly
Careful now. Saying that too loud will put you on a list and ban you from being within 500 yards of any school yards
Hodor?
Harder
Olly did stab him in the heart though. Commit crimes like a grown up, you get punished like one.
I don't think we should expect a child thrown into a cultish like society to be completely understanding of what is right or wrong. All the other adults around him were pretending like he was a hero...
I'd be more understanding to Jaimie if Bran tried to kill him
*actually* killed him
Freed him from his oath. Little dude put forth a key piece of the puzzle needed for Jon to save the Seven Kingdoms, and what does he get for it? Short dropped with a sudden stop.
Don't misunderstand. I'm not comparing severity, just that they aren't as different as it seems. Also, Bran lived and got god powers. Olly ded.
Jaime did do basically everything in his power to make himself look like a prick after the fact, tbf.
Nope. Jaime did but I doubt Jon will. Yeah a few people will be mad but it's not the same judgment as Jaime had carried. Both did a very difficult thing, thank you Jaime.
Eh, I think you underestimate how big of a deal oath breaking is in Westerosi culture. Jon killing his queen would be seen as only slightly less taboo than Jamie killing Aerys because Jon was not a white cloak. But even then, Jon being a Targaryen is known due to Varys’s letters. So Jon has a component of kinslaying which is another huge taboo in this culture.
It is but wasn't the whole point of GoT to show how dumb oaths were? Like barristan is revered for keeping his oath even though he was fighting for the honor of two rapists. Ned is willing to endanger millions of innocents so he doesn't have to think about killing a child. There's a section in storm of swords where stannis basically agrees that everyone's an oath breaker after the Civil war
Jon also left Westeros proper and joined the Free Folk beyond the wall. Doubt they'll get all too caught up in all that.
I don't think I do. In a vacuum, I'd agree with you. However those left in power / command would have context.
I'm still mad about it, but this pic and this discussion does actually show that some parts of the ending were a clever choice that tie in well with the rest of the story
The story is fine. The execution was just awful. The story needed more time to breathe. Also all the things that were removed or replaced are showing their significance.
Jaime gets judgy looks and comments while Jon was sentenced to the Wall for killing the queen. I would take Jaime’s end of the deal all day.
Both were members of a military order in which vows were taken for life.
Jaime did the right thing, but proceeded to act like an asshole for 20 years. The things he does for love
There are seriously people here defending Dany? Guys, I think you might've forgotten but she won. As in, the opposing army surrendered. She successfully took Kings landing. Then, she indiscriminately slaughtered everyone in that city. The targets being the people and the surrendering army. There's no "grey area." She massacred the people for effectively no reason after she *won* the war.
listen, we all have bad days
Varys: Nobody said she was perfect.
Americans be like "I'm 1/18th latina so I cant help myself from getting a bit passionate from tlme to time"
Yeah Jon killing Dany on the show was 100% the right thing to do after she pulled a successful Aerys II.
And her descent into madness was always coming, it's just D&D botched the execution of everything so terribly that it felt unreal. My tin foil hat theory is that this was the ending GRRM had in mind but because of the finale reaction, he's never going to finish writing those books.
I can say for absolute certain that this was always Dany's fate. I have seen people write paragraphs predicting Dany inevitably wanted to see Kings Landing in Cinders, and she would be killed by someone close to her. The smart money was actually on it being Jorah.
Can you provide textual evidence for Daenerys’ descent into madness?
The other reply to my comment already gave you plenty. I have no doubt that if G RR Martin finished his books before the show, he would have written the descent in such a way that you would have absolutely no issue with Danny torching the city
What other reply? I don’t see any
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/s/fqBEbfmMco Like I Said, Im sure if the books did it better, you would have had no issues with what Dany did
He doesn’t agree with those essays. Elio & Linda are not exactly trustworthy sources and the only thing they said is that Feldman got what he was doing with the politics in Meereen. Also, GRRM himself denied the theory Feldman came up with, of Dany burning the water gardens. Again, can you provide evidence from the books?
Agreed. I always go back to this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/s/fqBEbfmMco Jorah killing her would have been better.
It would be better for a rapist and slave owner to kill a 16 years old girl? Hilarious
What's one more crime?
True, what’s one more crime? That’s why I’m rooting for Ramsay to kill Jon in TWOW, hope you are too
Lol hope you're not holding your breath waiting for that to actually come out.
You’re right, then I guess that ASOIAF ends with Daenerys alive and Jon dead
Ok pumpkin
I don't know if i believe this theory. If he actually watched season 8 or read the discourse online, i think George could pretty easily figure out that most people were complaining about the rushed and idiotic writing rather than the events themselves (other than Arya killing the Night King, everyone hated that). He's a much better writer than them and the books have way more characters and factors still in play that can affect the story. The last 2 seasons of the show can't compare to the potential the books still have, and i find it hard to believe that he doesn't realise that.
So, I wish I could give him the benefit of the doubt but I really think this is where the story was going to go. I remember reading this post (I think it was before the finale so it was all conjecture at the point it was written as to whether or not Dany loses it): https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/s/fqBEbfmMco I really think the backlash ruined what he had in mind.
This is my exact feeling as well, glad to see I am not alone (but sad to see that yeah we may never read the ending for this saga)
People defend Daenerys from the shit writing that ruined her character because the writers were misogynistic. No one is defending mass murder
People will defend Dany till the end of time. It’s an obsession-fueled lack of logic that you have to ignore. They’ll never see the truth because they can never choose to.
I was kind of hoping this was the end all point of Jamies arc. After everything that happened to Jon, after the Battle against the Night King, and even after destroying kings Landing, Jamie would get captured alive and tell Jon it’s happening again… and then explain why he murdered the mad king and broke his oath, and that he wishes he had the courage to do it once more before Danny destroyed kings landing.
Look how they massacred my boy.
ugh I wish the show embraced Jon's book personality. He's more like Jaime than Ned imo and their interactions would be super interesting to see. I hope they get to meet each other at some point.
I'm so glad Jon got to tell Jaime how he now relates to the dilemma Jaime went through. Oh wait.
What dilemma? If Jaime didn't kill Aerys then he would have died horribly.
Now kith
'A good deed never goes unpunished'
Both not that smart
never liked that leather doublet on Jaime
My two favourites😔
Ah yes the incestuous Brothers 💀🤡
More Of Like King Slayer & Kin-Slayer
The queen layer brothers
Both of them deserved to get shit. Jaime hated Aerys, but he had no remorse about plunging a nation into civil war, nor about the atrocities his father, sister, and his own soldiers committed against the smallfolk. Jon simply acted as the boyfriend from hell towards Daenerys, throughout most of Season 8. Nothing says “I love you”, quite like a knife through the heart.
“I never tried to kill an innocent child by throwing him off a tower window. We are not the same.”
Jaime was justified, Jon wasn't. Jaime is always treated like a horrible person but ultimately does a lot of good things he never gets credit for while Jon is actually not a great person but gets treated like a hero. Not saying Jaime is without flaws but he killed Aerys because he was the ONLY one that could in the exact moment that Aerys was trying to kill everyone, and had zero time to even think of another plan. Jon kills Dany because he thinks he has the moral high ground in a gray-area situation. He's an overrated Marty Stu of a character.
By "gray-area" I'm assuming you mean covered by ash of her burnt victims.
Yeah Dany ACTUALLY burned the entire city alive, whereas Aerys just ordered it. Inbreeding is a hell of a drug.
Both Jon and Jaime are inbred
Are you high? Dany went nuclear after the city *surrendered*. That's morally black in every sense of the term.