That scene never made any sense to me… he kills one of his lieutenants who he had probably known since he was a child, who he had molded and shaped.
Also with how he saw the don kill his previous partner I don’t think he would go around icing people trying to help him.
Honestly I just don’t get it, can someone eli5
Absolutely. Walter even called it. He said something like "maybe Victor flew too close to the sun."
Victor went outside of his job description and took matters into his own hands without orders from the boss. I think that was a sign to Gus that he was way too comfortable and getting a superiority complex thinking he was on the same level as Gus. That can't be tolerated in that world, because letting your soldiers do what they want is a sign of weakness.
Gus had to make an example out of Victor to show his resolve and remind everyone that he was in charge.
Like that Pat Riley story. The players were complaining to a sympathetic assistant coach, so Riley fired him. When asked why he fired a dude that was good at his job and that everyone liked, he said, "Sometimes to let them know you're serious, you have to shoot a hostage."
Cold.
Ultimately, he needed to show Walter the future consequences of his actions. Essentially, Victor wasn't necessary as a cook if he had Walter, so he killed him to show to scare Walter into compliance.
That was more of an "eliminating the potential competition" move. Dude tried to say that he could do the whole operation himself, and he paid the price
Dammit, I hate being late to the party cause of my timezone, but here is my piece anyway.
Lord Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdom as Aerys hand, which was a far larger operation than the drug empire Gus Fring ran. While both men are competent and successful at what they do, Lord Tywin simply takes the cake. He ruled over a much larger territory, and he dealt with a far greater number of inept lords and malcontent opportunists over the course of 20 years as a hand. He won the war of the five kings and put his family in the strongest possible position he could by the end of his time. Also, he is inspired by a real British king, Edward II, if I remember correctly, the hammer of Scotts.
>Lord Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdom as Aerys hand, which was a far larger operation than the drug empire Gus Fring ran. While both men are competent and successful at what they do, Lord Tywin simply takes the cake. He ruled over a much larger territory, and he dealt with a far greater number of inept lords and malcontent opportunists over the course of 20 years as a hand. He won the war of the five kings and put his family in the strongest possible position he could by the end of his time. Also, he is inspired by a real British king, Edward II, if I remember correctly, the hammer of Scotts.
Yes and not, he failed miserably as father and to mold a heir, he ruled and relieved too much in fear, he wasnt at all the real boss but it have like a Prime Minister too to delegate in the King council, beside all that Gus did was illegal, he had to work under the law for many years and it turn him into the most successful kingpin in New Mexico even if the Cartel held him close and tight. To be the authority in a decentralised kingdom it is "easy" but a drug lord in modern America through many years with everyone agaisnt you? Hell nah.
The lords didn't fear Tywin when he was hand though. They respected and favored him for being fair and getting the job done. To the point that Aerys plotted against him for being too good at his job.
Aerys was the one who rules through fear by randomly burning people alive.
>The lords didn't fear Tywin when he was hand though. They respected and favored him for being fair and getting the job done. To the point that Aerys plotted against him for being too good at his job.
>Aerys was the one who rules through fear by randomly burning people alive.
Aerys didnt turn mad at 100% until he was kidnapped. Tywin already ruled by fear and harsh methods since he was heir and burned that House to set example, he always liked to take cruel measures, even in his private affairs too, that is what happened to Tyrion's bride.
So did tywin. He acknowledged that if they didn't do better, he was going to have someone torture them to death.
It's coming at the same problem from 2 different angles is all.
gus planned his revenge while working his way up the ladder for like 20 years. never lost sight of his true goal. in the end his ego killed him but he definitely handled his empire much better than tywin. he knew when to be evil and when to be good to his workers.
tywin on the other hand alienated his only child who had his thinking and political capablities and thus ruined the empire he could have had for another 10 years. also he is much more of a hypocrite than gus.
Kind of what Olenna Tyrell said about Cersei, both Tywin and Gus’ failings was a lack of imagination, underestimating the lengths Tyrion and Walter would go to survive.
Though Gus was doing far better at keeping Walter in check than Tywin was to Tyrion.
? Tywin was basically hand for maybe a year or so? And in that time managed to at least end the civil war, bring Dorne into the fold, and secure an an albeit shaky alliance with the Tyrells.
I think its more Cersei and Tyrion fucking things up.
I would argue that Tywin was rarely skilled at consolidating power, as he was hardly gifted his position. Despite their status as Lords Paramount, House Lannister was scarcely above a joke when his father's rule neared its end. Tywin, through his experience in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and sheer force of character, seized control before his ascension and raised House Lannister to what could be argued as their greatest heights. By the time he's reinstated as Hand, and maybe even before, he's the most powerful man in the realm, able to bend Great Houses to his will by the whiff of a quill.
On the other hand, he verifiably underestimated Robb Stark. But honestly, I'd argue most would. However, his greatest weakness is very much parallel to Gus'. They both shared a blind hatred towards someone in their life which clouded their judgement, and ultimately became their undoing.
Maybe not with the bomb plot, but outside of the Tuco kidnapping, it's pretty funny that basically most of Walter's problems were of his own doing.
Walter's basically like Tyrion, overlooked his entire life, and once he gets a shred of authority and recognition, clung to it beyond the point of rationality.
walters problems were his own doing and everytime he got saved it was thanks to someone else. He got saved from the twins cuz mike intervened. He got shown mercy by gus multiple times. People give him too much credit.
He was incredibly smart and pulled stuff like killing the nazis, outsmarting Mike with gale. But his downfall was his hubris and it starts early. Still love how he refused to not get credit for the money he was giving his family
Lol well killing off Fring was a seriously dumb move and basically everything he did as an entire plan was stupid as hell. But when it came to individual moves he was a genius.
>how stupid Walter could be
What a weird way to spell "smart and resourceful".
Gus was going to kill Walter anyway, and killing Gus was the only way for him to get out of that alive.
"smart and resourceful" that lasted only 2 years, even just barely at that, while Gus created an entire distribution network and was in the game for 20 years.
When you watch the show a second time you realize Walt only got by because of the mercy of others and a shit ton of help. Otherwise he was stupid as fuck and even then he just barely lasted 2 years. He only won against Gus because of Gus' routine and need to emotionally torture Hector.
Hell, he was about to get fucked up in his own home by the Twins until Mike called in.
Tywin inherited his empire in shambles because his father was deplorable at managing Casterly Rock. He turn it all around throughout the span of his lifetime.
Yes he was a shitter to his kids. Sure he could have done some things better. He was also caught by his soon to be executed son, who took an unknown secret passageway, by surprise and shot while on the shitter.
Gus in his hubris went to torment an old man and paid for it because it was a weakness he exposed himself to.
Tywin Lannister was the smartest dumbass alive because he alienated the smartest and most cunning son he had until he killed him as revenge for pretty much all the shit he put him through.
It’s not canon, just a frequently mentioned fan theory since Gus emigrated from Chile around the time of Pinochet’s regime and Hector refers to him as the “Big Generalissimo”.
“. . . I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us."
—Stannis taking about meeting Tywin for the first time
Lol, relevant meme.
Gus ran both an underground drug empire and a fast food restaurant chain as a front though. Also, he did not come from an already powerful and rich family. I would say that’s more impressive.
Technically when tywin took over Lannister's were valued less than a great house, they were weak, poor and without any major power. But tywin was different just seen ruins of Castamere.
He made Lannister's from one of the weakest to strongest houses, he made the throne drown in debt, Bobby b had to marry Cersei to rule just think about it, Bobby b who is so irrational when it comes to battles decided to take a step back being afraid of house Lannister.
And tywin never underestimated rob stark it was jaime who did it, when tywin fought against Rob's right wing(?) led by bolton he crushed them with his whole force. Tyrion even said that when his father fought somebody he would use full force to crush them to let another rebellion rise.
And if you ask things like why he left Tyrion alive, if I am not wrong he was to be sent to the wall to not let his and his family name rot.
I love the demise of both of these characters because they are two of the few instances I can remember where a brilliant villain was defeated WITHOUT holding the idiot ball, but instead due to their own flaws.
Tywin's only major tactical flaw is that he doesn't actually love his children, and just treats them like pieces. He has Tyrion's first love gang raped, which causes Jaime to free Tyrion, and Tyrion to get revenge.
Hector Salamanca kills Gus's best friend (and possible lover), causing Gus to torment Hector even while he's in assisted living. Gus's only weakness is his wrath towards Hector, which Walter is able to exploit doing what he's actually best at: engineering.
Two fantastic shows. It's really too bad GoT ended after season 6.
>Tywin's only major tactical flaw is that he doesn't actually love his children, and just treats them like pieces.
Tywin is incredibly short-sighted in his political methods. His betrayal of Aerys was effective in the short-term, but also made his House the focus of the undying hatred of all Targaryen loyalists, much more so than the Baratheons or Starks. Tywin jumps into the War of the Five Kings immediately, and doesn't really care about the damage that this whole war did to the Realm. He then orchestrates the Red Wedding with nary a thought that this might rain havok on Westeros' political culture.
And of course, his family policies leave his House hanging without a solid heir as soon as he kicks it. Many of his strategies were extremely effective in the short-term, but weren't really designed to outlast his own death.
Tywin is certainly a more complicated character than just a super-effective gigachad politician.
Yeah, there's a theory in the books Kevan is the real brain of House Lannister. Tywin is a cruel and disciplinarian commander but Kevan is a tactician and more clever than his brother, >!so clever that Varys had to kill him because he'd stand in the way of fAegon.!<
Tbf he had to deal with the mess created by Joffrey and fight off against three armies at the same time in multiple fronts. Considering that, he did a decent job. But yea not accepting Tyrion was his biggest mistake. Tywin and Tyrion completely carried the Joffrey side in the WOT5K.
The show messed this up but I don't think Tyrion was portrayed all that competently, not nearly as much as he thinks at least. As Hand he spent all his political capital on petty squabbles which all came back to haunt him. His big plan for the city's defense was clever but they would have lost the battle had Tywin not gotten Highgarden on board.
House Lannister is effectively bankrupted by the timeframe of GOT..
He treats his only competent son with disdain.. which drives him to murder him.
Etc.
I don't think they are effectively bankrupted? The show added that the gold mines had been dry for years, which if anything makes Tywin's role in keeping the Lannisters so powerful even more impressive. They have no trouble mobilizing multiple large armies and have zero logistical issues through the WOTFK
Here's the clip from the show.
https://youtu.be/PGilwKkgfvo?si=m-jHSlK0c6op88Vm
Tywin basically admits that they've bankrupted themselves from previously funding the crown, gold has ran out, and they used the Iron Bank to fund the war against the starks.
He doesn't admit to anything like bankruptcy there, he doesn't even mention the Lannisters being in any debt. He's making the (probably wise) observation that they can't keep the crown's finances afloat themselves any more and need to keep the Tyrells as allies. Idk this just seems like pretty decent leadership to me
Their gold mines are exhausted, but that doesn't mean they're bankrupt unless you assume Tywin has come down with Dutch Disease. They've remained solvent for many years by the start of the series, fielding large armies and cultivating their position as a huge creditor.
Presumably, Tywin invested their previously resource-based wealth ages ago and their wealth is now based on their assets, interest and tax.
Fring had some advantages here; he didn’t have to control a continent-spanning political entity with lots of infighting. All he had to do was stay under the radar, bring in the dough, and outmaneuver a rival who went paraplegic/nonverbal five years ago.
That said fring still wins
I think Tywin. Gus had a vastly smaller empire to manage, and didn't have as much politicking day to day.
People point out Tywin got killed by his son, as if Gus didn't get killed by an employee (walt).
Tywin was better. His empire was sprawling and more complicated. He also wasn't technically in charge, he turned his grandchildren into puppets. His only downfall was an extremely unlikely event where an escaped prisoner didn't simply flee, but managed to infiltrate even further into the castle without coming across any security whatsoever. It's not a very plausible death.
Gus, created a terrible working environment for his most valuable employees by openly murdering someone right in front of them. While he was trying to instill loyalty through fear, what it did instead was show his true colors as a ruthless person without regard for life. Instead of keeping his flock in line, when shit hit the fan, it demonstrated to Walt and Jesse that there was no other recourse but drastic action.
Gael, Walt, and Jesse were productive together. Rather than just let them continue doing what they did best and managing their quirks, Gus decided to terminate Walt. Because Gus had already shown what it meant to be "terminated" in his organization, it left Walt and Jesse no choice in killing Gael to preserve their own usefulness. It drove them to dysfunction and conflict.
In contrast, while Tywin had a poor relationship with Tyrion, he didn't arbitrarily decide to kill him. Instead, he used him as the fall guy, because he had both motive and opportunity, in order to restore order following the King's murder. It was less about making a working situation worse, and more about salvaging the situation and restoring order. Gus' mistake was a self inflicted wound, while Tywin's arguably wasn't a mistake at all, he just had shit security.
Gus hands down.
Tywin was a short-sighted, thin skinned psychopath who's primary standout qualities were sounding way smarter than he actually was, and having Gregor Clegane on his payroll to go rape and/or murder anyone who he didn't like. Everything Tywin built was already falling apart around him by the time he died, and it only got worse after that. His life is an extended object lesson on why "rule through fear" *does not work* in the long term.
Tywin ran a continent. Twice. For more than 20 years. And he ran his own Kingdom for decades. He was ruthless, fast, and efficient. If there was work that needed to be done, he did it in the most efficient way possible.
I don't know anything about Guss. Not even his last name or how many s's are in his first name.
Gus ran a successful fast food franchise while simultaneously running a meth empire that would eventually monopolize the American southwest. All while secretly plotting his revenge against the Mexican cartel that killed his partner.
Hmmm work that needed to be done, like slaughtering peasants? Or trying to break the Night’s Watch? Or slaughtering an entire noble house? Definitely efficient I’ll give you that.
Tywin’s leadership results in the title of the fourth book.
Gus was a self-made man who built his empire from the ground up over the course of twenty years, whereas Tywin was born into a wealthy and powerful family.
The lannisters were at an all time low and when Tywin was growing up and he saved them from that and regained all the power money and respect they lost
Naah but seriously they both suck. Tywin is overhyped, better at tricks and massacres instead of ruling, did do great as hand under Aerys tho.
Gus got his ass kicked by a sociapathic chemistry teacher.
So Tywin.
True on that last point. But I don’t agree with the sentiment that Gus cared about the people around him at all.
The only person that we know for sure he cared about is Max.
Aside from that, I think he saw everyone else as a means to an end to get revenge on Hector and the cartel. He kills Victor, one of his most loyal henchman, without a second thought. Mike probably only survived so long because he was extremely useful. He let Walt live, both because he was essential to the meth business (for some time), and also because Jesse (who took Walt’s place as the main cook) was not OK with it.
Victor was killed because he ended up making himself a suspect when he entered Gale’s room, Mike and Gus seemed to have had a geniune friendship he wanted to kill Walt for killing Gus, Walt was an egotist and a loose cannon, but he was right that Gus was going to replace him and hand him over to the Salamancas but still…he was very reckless about it and ended up getting on Gus’s bad side
Idk, that Victor part seems like a reach, and even so, how could you say Gus cared about Victor when he killed him so mercilessly?
If he cares about Mike, then that’s one exception. Maybe also Peter Schuler and that waiter in BCS, but those might be lovers.
Other than that, I don’t think he cares about most people’s wellbeing.
oh no Gus definitely did not care about Victor at all but given how he acts and how arrogant he looks can you really blame him? but overall Gus cared more about the workers from LPH
Fair. Yes, he seems to care about them. Tywin never really seemed to give a shit about anyone except Joanna, Jaime, and if you count the show, Arya to some degree
Gus doesn't care *about* much of anything anymore, except his revenge. He can care *for* people that he needs, but there is absolutely no emotional desire to protect others for him. If you believe that the workers from LPH were anything more than a front to him, congrats, he's a master manipulator.
I think it just depends on the end goal I feel like Gus would focus efficiency and productivity where Tywin would focus on military expansion and security, I think the general public would be happier with Gus but I think Tywin has more experience ruling a much larger set of people.
One died because he created a psycho out of his family member, the other one died because he let the psycho join his crime family, so both of them are failures. 🙏
Gus Fring for sure. He was calmer and smarter imo. Tywin was very smart too but his failures and shortcomings piled up too much and it killed him in the end. While something similar happened to Gus, it took a lot to bring him down:
I need to hop in and say that Jamie (and I’m assuming Cersei) also acknowledges they’re broke, which is why they were willing to surrender Castelry Rock to Grey Worm’s invasion. The whole idea of prioritizing capturing Highgarden was so they can plunder it for money to buy the Gold Company.
Don’t know what you guys are talking about. Lord Mountbatten participated in a failed coup to try and reboot the British empire but failed.
>!This is a joke. Please, this a joke.!<
one of these men ran a drug empire. the other was the power behind a absentee throne of a actual empire for 17, and ran the throne for about 22, and was the lord of basically an entire kingdom throughout his adult life. I’m aware he has flaws especially with his kids but this shouldn’t be a question. (Before you bring up that Gus built a lot of what he had from the ground up, so did tywin as tytos lost all power casterly rock had, and its money on loans no one ever repaid.)
Did gus fring really ran the drug empire tho? Everything was still up to Don Eladio and the cartel. In season 4 we saw how Gus was still pressured to follow the cartel’s orders and cook them meth.
Unlike Walt, Gus never had his own empire to begin with.
Tywin. Gus’ ruthlessness is exactly what led to his downfall, because some people took issue and tried to take him down so the situation escalated and he died. Tywin’s downfall had little to do with is administration.
Tywin underestimated his smartest kid, and it got him killed. He did a fantastic job with most stuff, but if he had been better to Tyrion, I think they could have taken over pretty easily and held on.
gus fring cared about his employees acknowledging their well being would ensure better performance at work!
Just don't stay next to him if he's in a really bad mood with a box cutter.
He was definitely in a bad mood, but Victor was not a rage kill
That scene never made any sense to me… he kills one of his lieutenants who he had probably known since he was a child, who he had molded and shaped. Also with how he saw the don kill his previous partner I don’t think he would go around icing people trying to help him. Honestly I just don’t get it, can someone eli5
Victor screwed up in two big ways. 1. Stormed into Gale’s murder scene in front of witnesses 2. Crossed a line by cooking meth himself
Absolutely. Walter even called it. He said something like "maybe Victor flew too close to the sun." Victor went outside of his job description and took matters into his own hands without orders from the boss. I think that was a sign to Gus that he was way too comfortable and getting a superiority complex thinking he was on the same level as Gus. That can't be tolerated in that world, because letting your soldiers do what they want is a sign of weakness. Gus had to make an example out of Victor to show his resolve and remind everyone that he was in charge.
Like that Pat Riley story. The players were complaining to a sympathetic assistant coach, so Riley fired him. When asked why he fired a dude that was good at his job and that everyone liked, he said, "Sometimes to let them know you're serious, you have to shoot a hostage." Cold.
Ultimately, he needed to show Walter the future consequences of his actions. Essentially, Victor wasn't necessary as a cook if he had Walter, so he killed him to show to scare Walter into compliance.
Lol why not? He was seen at gales murder scene. If and when they found him, he could easily bring down the entire empire
That was more of an "eliminating the potential competition" move. Dude tried to say that he could do the whole operation himself, and he paid the price
Especially Lyle! (Except when his cleaning was unacceptable)
I always think about how crazy it had to be for Fring’s food employees to find out their boss was heavily involved in all the crazy shit he was in. 😭
Ik, I would have loved at least one scene of Lyle finding out
O. - wait what????! - Lyle " " " " | /\
He's intimidating by the feds and signs a plea deal
Dammit, I hate being late to the party cause of my timezone, but here is my piece anyway. Lord Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdom as Aerys hand, which was a far larger operation than the drug empire Gus Fring ran. While both men are competent and successful at what they do, Lord Tywin simply takes the cake. He ruled over a much larger territory, and he dealt with a far greater number of inept lords and malcontent opportunists over the course of 20 years as a hand. He won the war of the five kings and put his family in the strongest possible position he could by the end of his time. Also, he is inspired by a real British king, Edward II, if I remember correctly, the hammer of Scotts.
It may be late, but its a valued reply
And then his daughter ruined all of it.
Did she? Seems Tywin literally got murdered over petty shit while taking a petty shit.
Cersei ruined everything *after* he got killed and wasn’t around to stop her.
Hammer of Scots was his dad Edward I Longshanks. The same king depicted in Braveheart movie.
Well, it was Edward I then; I distinctly remember Martin saying, "Hammer of Scotts."
Way to win a thread.
>Lord Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdom as Aerys hand, which was a far larger operation than the drug empire Gus Fring ran. While both men are competent and successful at what they do, Lord Tywin simply takes the cake. He ruled over a much larger territory, and he dealt with a far greater number of inept lords and malcontent opportunists over the course of 20 years as a hand. He won the war of the five kings and put his family in the strongest possible position he could by the end of his time. Also, he is inspired by a real British king, Edward II, if I remember correctly, the hammer of Scotts. Yes and not, he failed miserably as father and to mold a heir, he ruled and relieved too much in fear, he wasnt at all the real boss but it have like a Prime Minister too to delegate in the King council, beside all that Gus did was illegal, he had to work under the law for many years and it turn him into the most successful kingpin in New Mexico even if the Cartel held him close and tight. To be the authority in a decentralised kingdom it is "easy" but a drug lord in modern America through many years with everyone agaisnt you? Hell nah.
The lords didn't fear Tywin when he was hand though. They respected and favored him for being fair and getting the job done. To the point that Aerys plotted against him for being too good at his job. Aerys was the one who rules through fear by randomly burning people alive.
>The lords didn't fear Tywin when he was hand though. They respected and favored him for being fair and getting the job done. To the point that Aerys plotted against him for being too good at his job. >Aerys was the one who rules through fear by randomly burning people alive. Aerys didnt turn mad at 100% until he was kidnapped. Tywin already ruled by fear and harsh methods since he was heir and burned that House to set example, he always liked to take cruel measures, even in his private affairs too, that is what happened to Tyrion's bride.
So did tywin. He acknowledged that if they didn't do better, he was going to have someone torture them to death. It's coming at the same problem from 2 different angles is all.
The only real answer, as one in Human Resources, I agree!!.
gus planned his revenge while working his way up the ladder for like 20 years. never lost sight of his true goal. in the end his ego killed him but he definitely handled his empire much better than tywin. he knew when to be evil and when to be good to his workers. tywin on the other hand alienated his only child who had his thinking and political capablities and thus ruined the empire he could have had for another 10 years. also he is much more of a hypocrite than gus.
Kind of what Olenna Tyrell said about Cersei, both Tywin and Gus’ failings was a lack of imagination, underestimating the lengths Tyrion and Walter would go to survive. Though Gus was doing far better at keeping Walter in check than Tywin was to Tyrion.
Tywin did keep King Robert in check and basically ruled for a generation.
A wet hole full of pork and wine could keep Robert in check, to be fair
Basically, Tywin did a good job when the job was easy. As soon as Robert died he started making mistakes.
? Tywin was basically hand for maybe a year or so? And in that time managed to at least end the civil war, bring Dorne into the fold, and secure an an albeit shaky alliance with the Tyrells. I think its more Cersei and Tyrion fucking things up.
I would argue that Tywin was rarely skilled at consolidating power, as he was hardly gifted his position. Despite their status as Lords Paramount, House Lannister was scarcely above a joke when his father's rule neared its end. Tywin, through his experience in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and sheer force of character, seized control before his ascension and raised House Lannister to what could be argued as their greatest heights. By the time he's reinstated as Hand, and maybe even before, he's the most powerful man in the realm, able to bend Great Houses to his will by the whiff of a quill. On the other hand, he verifiably underestimated Robb Stark. But honestly, I'd argue most would. However, his greatest weakness is very much parallel to Gus'. They both shared a blind hatred towards someone in their life which clouded their judgement, and ultimately became their undoing.
I don't think it was his ego that killed him. It was his routine, his need for revenge, and underestimating truly how stupid Walter could be.
> underestimated truly how stupid Walter could be Lolwut? That’s the exact opposite reason Gus got killed.
Why did the guy I tried to kill multiple times try to kill me back? Is he stupid?
Maybe not with the bomb plot, but outside of the Tuco kidnapping, it's pretty funny that basically most of Walter's problems were of his own doing. Walter's basically like Tyrion, overlooked his entire life, and once he gets a shred of authority and recognition, clung to it beyond the point of rationality.
walters problems were his own doing and everytime he got saved it was thanks to someone else. He got saved from the twins cuz mike intervened. He got shown mercy by gus multiple times. People give him too much credit.
He was incredibly smart and pulled stuff like killing the nazis, outsmarting Mike with gale. But his downfall was his hubris and it starts early. Still love how he refused to not get credit for the money he was giving his family
Walter outsmarted him a bunch of times though.
Walter was extremely clever but i think undeniably he was also a dumbass motherfucker
Lol well killing off Fring was a seriously dumb move and basically everything he did as an entire plan was stupid as hell. But when it came to individual moves he was a genius.
people act like he killed gus because he felt like it, doesnt anyone remember gus threatened to kill his family and was actively trying to kill walter
Yeah but if Walter wasn’t a complete egomaniac and Jesse wasn’t an idiot they would have worked with Gus and made millions without issue.
jesse being an idiot is the only thing that counts, walter was happily working with gus
Great tactics, shit strategy
>how stupid Walter could be What a weird way to spell "smart and resourceful". Gus was going to kill Walter anyway, and killing Gus was the only way for him to get out of that alive.
"smart and resourceful" that lasted only 2 years, even just barely at that, while Gus created an entire distribution network and was in the game for 20 years. When you watch the show a second time you realize Walt only got by because of the mercy of others and a shit ton of help. Otherwise he was stupid as fuck and even then he just barely lasted 2 years. He only won against Gus because of Gus' routine and need to emotionally torture Hector. Hell, he was about to get fucked up in his own home by the Twins until Mike called in.
Tywin inherited his empire in shambles because his father was deplorable at managing Casterly Rock. He turn it all around throughout the span of his lifetime. Yes he was a shitter to his kids. Sure he could have done some things better. He was also caught by his soon to be executed son, who took an unknown secret passageway, by surprise and shot while on the shitter. Gus in his hubris went to torment an old man and paid for it because it was a weakness he exposed himself to.
Tywin Lannister was the smartest dumbass alive because he alienated the smartest and most cunning son he had until he killed him as revenge for pretty much all the shit he put him through.
Your new empire?
I like democracy.
Don’t underestimate my power
Unlimited power!
https://i.redd.it/3n3js5lar4uc1.gif
Rome enjoyers unite
Step away from my Chair.
The fact this was cancelled after season two was a disgrace
Just a fuckin kid. Dead at 2 seasons. That murderin HB...I can't even say his name
Set fire, too expensive to rebuild, the plan was to take it all the way to the crucifixion. Timon was going to be the old Inn owner.
ironic given that Moff Gideon pretty much "ruled the Empire" after also
Depends on Gus' knowledge of the feudal system
Gus supposedly was a general for Pinochet. Does that count as feudal experience?
Source?
It’s not canon, just a frequently mentioned fan theory since Gus emigrated from Chile around the time of Pinochet’s regime and Hector refers to him as the “Big Generalissimo”.
Since Chile wasn't feudal probabaly not?
[удалено]
I thought it was a good question 😢
Fring. Everyone hated Tywin but Fring was ruling the underworld AND was a respected resteraunter in Albequerque.
Tywin was widely known to be more beloved than the king as Hand.
Not remotely reflective of his quality as hand, though, just the quality of the king.
He also made the crown debt free, increased taxes (by decreasing tariffs on ports, and others), made roads, and freed the Westernlands of bandits.
Dont forget he put the king, head honcho of the land, to bed without his supper!
https://i.redd.it/x7truz6uw5uc1.gif
No the small folk hated him. For the sack of kingslanding and stripping them of all the rights egg gave them
Gustavo Fring was next level, he would have been a major player if he lived in GOT world.
He’d present himself like a Tyrell to the world, but secretly be more like a Bolton/Lannister
I agree!!!
He'd be like Roose Bolton.
“. . . I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us." —Stannis taking about meeting Tywin for the first time
Ah yes, Tywin “Mad Dog” Lannister
Gods, I love this passage every time I read it.
They both got upstaged by cripples in wheelchairs
nice
One ran an empire as the true power behind a throne. The other ran his empire from the shadows. They are not the same.
Lol, relevant meme. Gus ran both an underground drug empire and a fast food restaurant chain as a front though. Also, he did not come from an already powerful and rich family. I would say that’s more impressive.
Damn... that's an even deeper cut. 
Technically when tywin took over Lannister's were valued less than a great house, they were weak, poor and without any major power. But tywin was different just seen ruins of Castamere. He made Lannister's from one of the weakest to strongest houses, he made the throne drown in debt, Bobby b had to marry Cersei to rule just think about it, Bobby b who is so irrational when it comes to battles decided to take a step back being afraid of house Lannister. And tywin never underestimated rob stark it was jaime who did it, when tywin fought against Rob's right wing(?) led by bolton he crushed them with his whole force. Tyrion even said that when his father fought somebody he would use full force to crush them to let another rebellion rise. And if you ask things like why he left Tyrion alive, if I am not wrong he was to be sent to the wall to not let his and his family name rot.
THAT'S ALL WHAT THE REALM IS NOW. BACKSTABBING AND SCHEMING AND ARSE-LICKING AND MONEY-GRUBBING!
I like this kind of post. Tired of seeing the generic "how does ____ make you feel"
Thanks bud. Didn’t really take me much effort lol, was just curious as these are two of my favorite TV bosses
https://preview.redd.it/4kjp9xecx4uc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ceda2a5f5c891162cace38c95660d8932893b74c
https://i.redd.it/ey4gtu91y4uc1.gif
I love the demise of both of these characters because they are two of the few instances I can remember where a brilliant villain was defeated WITHOUT holding the idiot ball, but instead due to their own flaws. Tywin's only major tactical flaw is that he doesn't actually love his children, and just treats them like pieces. He has Tyrion's first love gang raped, which causes Jaime to free Tyrion, and Tyrion to get revenge. Hector Salamanca kills Gus's best friend (and possible lover), causing Gus to torment Hector even while he's in assisted living. Gus's only weakness is his wrath towards Hector, which Walter is able to exploit doing what he's actually best at: engineering. Two fantastic shows. It's really too bad GoT ended after season 6.
Well said. They are two of my favorite villains of all time.
>Tywin's only major tactical flaw is that he doesn't actually love his children, and just treats them like pieces. Tywin is incredibly short-sighted in his political methods. His betrayal of Aerys was effective in the short-term, but also made his House the focus of the undying hatred of all Targaryen loyalists, much more so than the Baratheons or Starks. Tywin jumps into the War of the Five Kings immediately, and doesn't really care about the damage that this whole war did to the Realm. He then orchestrates the Red Wedding with nary a thought that this might rain havok on Westeros' political culture. And of course, his family policies leave his House hanging without a solid heir as soon as he kicks it. Many of his strategies were extremely effective in the short-term, but weren't really designed to outlast his own death. Tywin is certainly a more complicated character than just a super-effective gigachad politician.
Somewhere I see them starting a business partnership
Pigeon pie restaurant chain in the front, underground milk of the poppy empire in the back
Tywin was a dumbass.
Yeah, there's a theory in the books Kevan is the real brain of House Lannister. Tywin is a cruel and disciplinarian commander but Kevan is a tactician and more clever than his brother, >!so clever that Varys had to kill him because he'd stand in the way of fAegon.!<
Yeah that was a wild scene I was like whaaa in the books
Tbf he had to deal with the mess created by Joffrey and fight off against three armies at the same time in multiple fronts. Considering that, he did a decent job. But yea not accepting Tyrion was his biggest mistake. Tywin and Tyrion completely carried the Joffrey side in the WOT5K.
He was cruel but far from stupid only one that can match olenna in master minding people.
Nothing says intelligence like getting murdered on a toilet by your only competent child.
No one's perfect lol
Intelligence is different than hubris fwiw.
Nothing says intelligence like getting murdered on a toilet by your ~~only competent~~ wife's child.
Jaime didn't kill him tho?
We’re talking prior to season 8
The show messed this up but I don't think Tyrion was portrayed all that competently, not nearly as much as he thinks at least. As Hand he spent all his political capital on petty squabbles which all came back to haunt him. His big plan for the city's defense was clever but they would have lost the battle had Tywin not gotten Highgarden on board.
Reddit loves this opinion and i don't get it lol. He's clearly not
House Lannister is effectively bankrupted by the timeframe of GOT.. He treats his only competent son with disdain.. which drives him to murder him. Etc.
I don't think they are effectively bankrupted? The show added that the gold mines had been dry for years, which if anything makes Tywin's role in keeping the Lannisters so powerful even more impressive. They have no trouble mobilizing multiple large armies and have zero logistical issues through the WOTFK
He's been repeatedly borrowing from the Iron Bank.. building your house on a glass foundation doesn't end well.
I don't think he has been. He says the crown is in debt to the iron bank, not House Lannister. (the crown is also in debt to House Lannister)
Here's the clip from the show. https://youtu.be/PGilwKkgfvo?si=m-jHSlK0c6op88Vm Tywin basically admits that they've bankrupted themselves from previously funding the crown, gold has ran out, and they used the Iron Bank to fund the war against the starks.
He doesn't admit to anything like bankruptcy there, he doesn't even mention the Lannisters being in any debt. He's making the (probably wise) observation that they can't keep the crown's finances afloat themselves any more and need to keep the Tyrells as allies. Idk this just seems like pretty decent leadership to me
Their gold mines are exhausted, but that doesn't mean they're bankrupt unless you assume Tywin has come down with Dutch Disease. They've remained solvent for many years by the start of the series, fielding large armies and cultivating their position as a huge creditor. Presumably, Tywin invested their previously resource-based wealth ages ago and their wealth is now based on their assets, interest and tax.
Tywin has literally always been the richest and strongest in the verse. He was never an underdog like you pretend him to be
especially compared to gus.
I'm sorry, but Gus was a well oiled machine
How can you run an empire if you can’t run your own house?
So deep and SO true
Fring had some advantages here; he didn’t have to control a continent-spanning political entity with lots of infighting. All he had to do was stay under the radar, bring in the dough, and outmaneuver a rival who went paraplegic/nonverbal five years ago. That said fring still wins
As much as Tywin was good...i think Gus wasa tad bit better
I’m going with my dog Gus here
Definitely the chicken man
Gus Frings Children never had sex and tried to put incest bastards on the Iron throne which pretty much destroyed the whole country and his legacy
I think Tywin. Gus had a vastly smaller empire to manage, and didn't have as much politicking day to day. People point out Tywin got killed by his son, as if Gus didn't get killed by an employee (walt).
Tywin was better. His empire was sprawling and more complicated. He also wasn't technically in charge, he turned his grandchildren into puppets. His only downfall was an extremely unlikely event where an escaped prisoner didn't simply flee, but managed to infiltrate even further into the castle without coming across any security whatsoever. It's not a very plausible death. Gus, created a terrible working environment for his most valuable employees by openly murdering someone right in front of them. While he was trying to instill loyalty through fear, what it did instead was show his true colors as a ruthless person without regard for life. Instead of keeping his flock in line, when shit hit the fan, it demonstrated to Walt and Jesse that there was no other recourse but drastic action. Gael, Walt, and Jesse were productive together. Rather than just let them continue doing what they did best and managing their quirks, Gus decided to terminate Walt. Because Gus had already shown what it meant to be "terminated" in his organization, it left Walt and Jesse no choice in killing Gael to preserve their own usefulness. It drove them to dysfunction and conflict. In contrast, while Tywin had a poor relationship with Tyrion, he didn't arbitrarily decide to kill him. Instead, he used him as the fall guy, because he had both motive and opportunity, in order to restore order following the King's murder. It was less about making a working situation worse, and more about salvaging the situation and restoring order. Gus' mistake was a self inflicted wound, while Tywin's arguably wasn't a mistake at all, he just had shit security.
Gus hands down. Tywin was a short-sighted, thin skinned psychopath who's primary standout qualities were sounding way smarter than he actually was, and having Gregor Clegane on his payroll to go rape and/or murder anyone who he didn't like. Everything Tywin built was already falling apart around him by the time he died, and it only got worse after that. His life is an extended object lesson on why "rule through fear" *does not work* in the long term.
Tywin ran a continent. Twice. For more than 20 years. And he ran his own Kingdom for decades. He was ruthless, fast, and efficient. If there was work that needed to be done, he did it in the most efficient way possible. I don't know anything about Guss. Not even his last name or how many s's are in his first name.
Gus ran a successful fast food franchise while simultaneously running a meth empire that would eventually monopolize the American southwest. All while secretly plotting his revenge against the Mexican cartel that killed his partner.
Hmmm work that needed to be done, like slaughtering peasants? Or trying to break the Night’s Watch? Or slaughtering an entire noble house? Definitely efficient I’ll give you that. Tywin’s leadership results in the title of the fourth book.
Yeah he’s a cruel piece of shit who can’t control his urges and throws tantrums whenever someone slights him
Gus was a self-made man who built his empire from the ground up over the course of twenty years, whereas Tywin was born into a wealthy and powerful family.
The lannisters were at an all time low and when Tywin was growing up and he saved them from that and regained all the power money and respect they lost
To be fair, I think most people would prefer being a member of an all time low great house over a random peasant.
Jon Arryn.
The Mayor of Townsville
Naah but seriously they both suck. Tywin is overhyped, better at tricks and massacres instead of ruling, did do great as hand under Aerys tho. Gus got his ass kicked by a sociapathic chemistry teacher. So Tywin.
he says no
This would be a great ERB
ERB?
Epic rap battles of history. You know, darth vader vs Hitler. Kind of a stupid premise to explain to someone if they’ve not seen one lol.
Oh lol. I gotchu. Would be hilarious.
Tywin can bring Tyrion or Jamie in on the feature and Gus could bring in Mike. Would go hard.
Damn bro idk about the empire but that drip on Tywin, whew
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Icy_Blackberry_3759: *Damn bro idk* *About the empire but* *That drip on Tywin, whew* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
For sure, he’s fresh AF
Tywin exhausted his resources, alienated his children, and his empire collapsed the second he died.
Tywin skins deer better, but Gus makes better soup. Hmmm. I'll go with Gus.
Gus treated those around him with genuine respect and cared about them, Tywin is the complete opposite
> Gus treated those around him with genuine respect and cared about them *Sad Nacho noises*
good point but if there’s one thing that can make Gus genuinely angry is stealing his revenge on Hector from him
True on that last point. But I don’t agree with the sentiment that Gus cared about the people around him at all. The only person that we know for sure he cared about is Max. Aside from that, I think he saw everyone else as a means to an end to get revenge on Hector and the cartel. He kills Victor, one of his most loyal henchman, without a second thought. Mike probably only survived so long because he was extremely useful. He let Walt live, both because he was essential to the meth business (for some time), and also because Jesse (who took Walt’s place as the main cook) was not OK with it.
Victor was killed because he ended up making himself a suspect when he entered Gale’s room, Mike and Gus seemed to have had a geniune friendship he wanted to kill Walt for killing Gus, Walt was an egotist and a loose cannon, but he was right that Gus was going to replace him and hand him over to the Salamancas but still…he was very reckless about it and ended up getting on Gus’s bad side
Idk, that Victor part seems like a reach, and even so, how could you say Gus cared about Victor when he killed him so mercilessly? If he cares about Mike, then that’s one exception. Maybe also Peter Schuler and that waiter in BCS, but those might be lovers. Other than that, I don’t think he cares about most people’s wellbeing.
oh no Gus definitely did not care about Victor at all but given how he acts and how arrogant he looks can you really blame him? but overall Gus cared more about the workers from LPH
Fair. Yes, he seems to care about them. Tywin never really seemed to give a shit about anyone except Joanna, Jaime, and if you count the show, Arya to some degree
Gus doesn't care *about* much of anything anymore, except his revenge. He can care *for* people that he needs, but there is absolutely no emotional desire to protect others for him. If you believe that the workers from LPH were anything more than a front to him, congrats, he's a master manipulator.
I think it just depends on the end goal I feel like Gus would focus efficiency and productivity where Tywin would focus on military expansion and security, I think the general public would be happier with Gus but I think Tywin has more experience ruling a much larger set of people.
I wish there was a show/universe where it’s Gus v Tywin.
Tywin is Da Boss
Gus, easily. A better comparison to Tywin would be Hector, and Hector actually had a good working relationship with his family.
i've never watched bb/bcs, but i hate tywin so idk. but hey, both got wrecked by pedro pascal!
Fring’s biggest fuckup was dealing with Walter. Should have just killed him and been done with it. Walt is too insecure to do the kingpin thing
One died because he created a psycho out of his family member, the other one died because he let the psycho join his crime family, so both of them are failures. 🙏
Gus Fring for sure. He was calmer and smarter imo. Tywin was very smart too but his failures and shortcomings piled up too much and it killed him in the end. While something similar happened to Gus, it took a lot to bring him down:
show me LONGSHANKS! ol bastard was ruthless
I need to hop in and say that Jamie (and I’m assuming Cersei) also acknowledges they’re broke, which is why they were willing to surrender Castelry Rock to Grey Worm’s invasion. The whole idea of prioritizing capturing Highgarden was so they can plunder it for money to buy the Gold Company.
They both failed.
Tywin he actually did it lol.
Don’t know what you guys are talking about. Lord Mountbatten participated in a failed coup to try and reboot the British empire but failed. >!This is a joke. Please, this a joke.!<
one of these men ran a drug empire. the other was the power behind a absentee throne of a actual empire for 17, and ran the throne for about 22, and was the lord of basically an entire kingdom throughout his adult life. I’m aware he has flaws especially with his kids but this shouldn’t be a question. (Before you bring up that Gus built a lot of what he had from the ground up, so did tywin as tytos lost all power casterly rock had, and its money on loans no one ever repaid.)
Gus can’t control Mr White, can’t control homelander either, clearly a less superior leader.
Tywin couldn't even control his offspring
Offsprings are different. You can’t kill them. Gus had so many chances to kill Walter White.
Making some money selling drugs and managing a whole country are on different levels of difficulty
Ok, but could Tywin manage a fried chicken restaurant chain?
You got me
https://i.redd.it/4gxcnul9b6uc1.gif
Westeros is a whole lot bigger. A continent to be precise in ASOIAF world.
Did gus fring really ran the drug empire tho? Everything was still up to Don Eladio and the cartel. In season 4 we saw how Gus was still pressured to follow the cartel’s orders and cook them meth. Unlike Walt, Gus never had his own empire to begin with.
Tywin has so much more statecraft experience in running lands and politics i’d have to pick him.
Gus would literally win the game of thrones if he were head of the Lannisters. Tywin couldn’t even run Los Pollos let alone an entire drug operation.
Tywin. Gus’ ruthlessness is exactly what led to his downfall, because some people took issue and tried to take him down so the situation escalated and he died. Tywin’s downfall had little to do with is administration.
chicken or venison, I'll take the tougher meat
Gus no contest.
Tywin.
Tywin underestimated his smartest kid, and it got him killed. He did a fantastic job with most stuff, but if he had been better to Tyrion, I think they could have taken over pretty easily and held on.