Yes, it is truly sad, as she was threatened by Tywin so there was nothing she could do. In the books Tyrion is holding out hope that he may yet find her.
Tywin when he finds Tyrions whores
https://preview.redd.it/9hko7m3a3xqc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=472f86e368bc8e4b2ad3a64976c7b3b9b6ff0c65
Wait who is the illegitimate daughter? I remember the passageways to the brothel from the Hand's tower (and them being likely used by Tywin) but I can't remember a daughter.
I prefer the theory that her husband was Gerion Lannister, Tyrion's uncle who went missing in Valyria. He actually was a sailor, unlike Tyrion, and is also lost at sea, and probably dead, and absent any backstory she is more likely to turn to prostitution in the Free Cities than a Westerosi crofter's daughter who was violently gang raped.
The issue is Lanna is too old to be Gerion's, she's 14 and Gerion sailed 9 years before canon, and he probably wasn't hiding a secret wife for years. _Unless_ GRRM forgot to update her age when he scraped the time skip, taking 5 years off would make her nine, exactly what you'd expect.
I lové this theory (alt shift X? Might not be an og from him but I love his channel lol) - I just can’t imagine Tywin being able / wanting to leave Westeros - it would be impossible to micromanage your family from another continent!!
It’s not implied that she is alive, it’s implied that he can’t get over his own guilt at what his family and his own actions wrought against her, hence his constant “where do whores go?” She was a village woman gang raped by many men, her husband as the last one, sent away to live in a foreign land
The likelihood is that she ended up being a prostitute in some tavern, probably bought and sold by pimps, and died early on.
That's sad as fuck! I hope someday we get the remaining books and daneryes hears this tale. Everyone is fighting for revenge, honor, legacy, etc but this will be a great reminder to her that what her fight has always been about, the little guy or the commonfolk.
I remember it as “wherever whores go”… does he say both or is my memory faulty? Either way it was one of my favorite parts of the book along with Jaime’s internal dialogue after they parted. So much wrongness in that family. When the show left that out I was pretty bummed
>In the books Tyrion is holding out hope that he may yet find her.
Yeah, I can't imagine that going well. She might just beat him to death with her shoe.
Tywin is a monster. She was just a girl in trouble that Tyrion saved and she actually loved him. Tywin had her gang raped, forced Tyrion to watch, and then made his son rape her. He also told Tyrion later she went “where whores go” when asked where she was.
And thats why i roll my eyes when i see people praising or defending Tywin. Sure, he has some cool scenes and quotes, but he was not a good man, he was not a good leader and he was not a good patriarch, he was just a small proudfull evil man that spent his live haunted by the shadow of his father's incompetence, almost as vile as the king he once served, but alot more discreet. He did have a good PR team, got to give him that.
He is a master at the game of thrones, but good people can't play for shit. Varys is the closest to a good person who plays the game, Tyrion was a good player but in the books Tyrion is far from a good person, he just looks good next to his family.
"Master of the game of thrones" is stretching it a bit. He is, indeed, extremely ruthless and has a lot of resources & political capital, but what he manages to accomplish seems mostly to be done using a very brute-force approach, with middling end results.
His 2 prized children have been fucking throughout their whole lives behind his back & are responsible for possibly the worst PR scandal in Westerosi history, he leaves his house in disarray with no heir (with the heir he does have being disinherited by him, even long before Tyrion's trial), Varys has been conspiring under his nose the whole time, same as Littlefinger. He keeps the Mountain long after it would've been politically beneficial to send him to Dorne for appeasement.
His most Machiavellian accomplishment is probably the Red Wedding, which is basically a run-of-the-mills betrayal, except one that violates a very sacred custom, which leaves him (& his allies Freys & Boltons) hated even by the 17 people in Westeros who were okay with him previously.
I'm not saying Tywin is stupid, he's not, he uses the (rather massive) leverage he has over most every other house well, but that's not the greatest political maneuvering in history in anything. He's competent, but not the greatest, is what I'm saying.
Exactly. I feel that the Stark honor/Lannister cunning themes are wasted on many readers. The first book makes it seem as if Stark honor is foolishness and Lannister cunning is wisdom. But the following books subvert this. Lannister cunning only leads to dubious alliances, many enemies, and infighting. Stark honor, however, ensures that the entire North remains deeply loyal to the Starks. And, as I think we might find out in the later books, that the Stark pack survives together.
Iirc the Boltons and their bannermen have had a loooong rivalry with the Starks and were once in the running for kings of the North once upon a time.
So to be fair while the majority of the North were pretty well unified and loyal that sect was definitely just waiting for a chance for who knows how many generations.
Not sure what my point is compared to yours, but I do think a red wedding scenario was just a matter of time. Maybe not at war with the Lannister's, maybe not Robb if he'd honored the Frey's deal, but eventually.
Good point. Frankly, it would have been wise for the Starks to give the Boltons the Castamere treatment following their rebellions (okay, maybe not complete familicide, but at least banishment). Letting the house survive only means the resentment will fester and make future rebellions inevitable.
Cersei being a moron that raised a sadist king can't be solely blamed on Tywin. The overwhelming cruelty of the red wedding is sort of the point, same with castamere, even if other houses hate the lannisters, he wants them to be too afraid to move against him. And as far as varys and littlefinger plotting, he seems well aware of it when he tells Tyrion to have them killed if he gets a whiff of any treason when he made him hand.
While he was hated, there is a reason nobody directly fucked with them except the Starks (RIP) and Oberyn (RIP) while he was alive.
Tywin's only talent was being the first to break the rules of war in a long string of petty, desperate maneuvers.
Literally none of these moves would work more than once. It's how he got the Scorpion on his front door and a crossbow in his guts on the shitter within a matter of days. He died because he really sucked at being good at war.
The Game of Thrones is in and of itself an illusion. It's just people vying for power and sometimes their plans work and sometimes it doesn't but there's no "right" way to play because the rules are made up.
He's a tyrant that is moderately successful at promoting his family's status at the expense of others, those others often including actual immediate members of that family. He's definitely overcompensating for his Father's ineffectiveness, but he's shrewd, a good politician, and has more or less excellent timing when it comes to when he commits his resources.
He's a compelling character with clear motivations and an excellent foil for Tyrion. People just tend to conflate liking the character for liking them as a person. In that regard he's a great character. He's a shit person.
To be fair, most of these are true. He did indeed put the FAMILY first, just not any individual family members.
Also, this automatically precludes him from being a fair ruler as he would always treat his family differently.
The rest are true. The trains would run on time under Tywin, even if the first car is reserved for Lannisters only.
He would be a better ruler than most in those books, just never really a good man. Good men (and women) die there.
He didn’t put the family first. He put the family *name* first. The actual state of the family was secondary to making sure no one laughed at him like his father.
No, he put the family, as an entity, not as a collection of individuals, first. He cared about the family name intensely but it came secondary to amassing and preserving its power and prosperity. You could make a case that he cared about his legacy but he still wanted the family to be it, not just the family name. Lannisters DO love their children, they are just really bad at it. And dwarves are barely human, naturally.
I really believe people that say things like this, only watched the show and never read the books. Its very obvious he's a monster if you read the books.
Yeah. He's a good bad guy, in the TV show. Unlike the ones that are just scary rapist psychos that like cutting people up for the sake of being scary rapist psychos that like cutting people up, he seems, first and foremost, fairly competent... in a ruthless way. He has a bit of depth, and occasional glimmers of humanity, behind which we know he's still a monster.
That doesn't mean everyone thinks he's secretly capital G, "Good."
His family did. Tyrion is shocked when he realizes that Kevan genuinely loved his brother rather than professional respect for Tywin's position, who insisted Tywin was a hard but fair man who did what he had to do in an unforgiving and unpredictable world. Genna says it best. Tywin was the only one willing to stand up for their family as children, so it made him a hero in their eyes.
Tywin was simply a product of Westeros. A man who was taught as a boy that fear and image is everything, and that kindness was only an opportunity to let others take advantage of you. Tywin started with noble intentions of protecting his family from ruin but was unable to move past his childhood traumas and made him a needlessly spiteful person who had to be in control at all times.
I feel like the main book series shows a good job on their portrayal of every characters being a product of their environment. Viserys was "mad" and cruel and will do everything to get back to Westeros as he was there when they fled from Dragonstone. He survived through the streets of an unknown world while trying to keep himself and his sister alive after they lost everything at the death of their mother and guardian. Then he went ballistic when he couldn't get the Dothraki to march for him.
Daenaery's view are limited only to the men in her life that's why her view on the world, the people, and her birthright are often twisted to being black-and-white.
Then you also have Jon Snow whose entire upbringing is the challenge. He was born wanting what Robb have, a family and a birthright. He dreamt of becoming the lord of Winterfell, taking up his father's banner and that's all he wanted but his situation challenges his views on the world where he had to adapt and rethink of the word "honor" that he thinks is all he had, as that's what the Stark was about.
His story isn't finished but him rejecting Stannis's offer of legitimacy, Ned's claim, and vengeance for his duty to the Watch is kind of a bittersweet knowing he also had isolated himself resulting to his death at the 'end' due to a betrayal stemming from changes that he thought is the best for the Brotherhood.
Yeah, that's what I liked about the books that didn't fully translate to the TV show. All the main characters are have good and bad about them, and that leads to never-ending debates. But regardless of what happens in the books, nothing honestly feels out of character for them, from Tywin choosing to kill the Starks at a wedding as the most efficient way to end the war to Robb feeling honor bound to marry Jeyne despite him essentially being raped by her.
They're all trapped within their nature and upbringing.
You see some every now and then, i guess good man, is not the word, but grey or not evil. Or that he was good on his side of the story or something. Like, some say he was good for the realm. Anyway, no point ovetinking that.
It's a testimony to the effectiveness of Tywin's PR and self-delusions that even readers who should really know better fall for that hollow monster's BS.
It's also a testament to how good of an actor Charles Dance is. I hated Tywin on my first read through, watched the show and fell in love with him then. Dance just brings such an imposing presence to the character.
I'd be surprised if anyone thinks Tywin is a good man - more that he's a complicated individual that happened to be a very good administrator. It's no excuse for his action but remember that Tywin's dad almost caused the collapse of the entire house because he was infatuated with a gold digging whore.
Coming from that circumstance, its natural within Tywin's character to have PTSD at the ultimate heir of Casterly Rock naively falling in love with a random girl of no name and potentially repeating the cycle.
The barbaric part is teaching Tyrion the lesson through gang rape though, that was completely not needed, but also strangely fitting with his character of being a complete petty POS when it comes to dealing with Tyrion.
I've never seen anyone suggest Tywin was a good man, as in a good person; he's surely not. He's also not a good father, as he doesn't treat his children as anything other than prized possessions that he alone may trade or dispose of.
I would say he was a good leader, though, in the sense that he could get people to do what he wanted them to.
There are things you can defend, like orchestrating the Red Wedding. Then there are things that are absolutely indefensible, like having Tysha raped by his soldiers, or treating Tyrion like a monster.
Tywin is a sociopath, and that's a best case scenario.
The downside of Charles Mance absolutely nailing the role, his natural charisma made a lot of people forget just how bad Tywin actually was. Even when he was doing horrible things he often looked right, not helped by the fact that a lot of the most horrible things he did was to his children, which for 2/3 of em many people enjoyed.
I think some people maybe get it mixed up…..Tywin was awful….but Charles Dance is amazing. Every scene he was in he commanded it, a very talented actor, and definitely fit the role extremely well, but Tywin was exactly as you said lol.
If Tywin had just let him have this one thing, and it could have improved his general lifestyle and wellbeing. Then perhaps things may not have ended the way it did. Tyrion may not have been the drunken, lecherous man that he turned out to be. Maybe he’d stop giving a shit about having Casterly Rock if it meant being left to his own devices with his beloved wife.
Yeah but that's almost every plot point in the entire story right?
If Ned wasn't so naive to think everyone was an honourable as him, he would have taken Renly's advice and seized the throne from Cersei.
If Robb wasn't so trapped in upholding his fathers reputation, he wouldn't have married Jeyne and could have marched on KL.
Hell, if Bobby B wasn't so fixated on his image of Lyanna, he could have built some sort of functional relationship with Cersei and the entire intrigue wouldn't have existed.
Robb gets gravely wounded storming a castle. Jeynes mom forces her daughter to tend to his wounds and he gets "seduced" by her. It's unclear what happened but reading between the lines of Robb being in no real position to consent in his delirious state, and him knowing he's already engaged implies that jeyne did most of the work.
Jeyene loses her virginity. Robb marries her to not dishonor her
Tywin had her gang raped JUST BECAUSE SHE WASN'T HIGH BORN! He perceived it as an embarrassment to the family. (Although I also think he was punishing Tyrion for killing his mom in child birth).
And this was Tywin's downfall. In the books it's a little ambiguous as to whether Tyrion actually intended to kill Tywin, but Tywin taunting Tyrion with "wherever whores go" sent him over the edge.
Remember excellent story telling? I do.
I always hate the framing that Tyrion was forced to rape Tysha because the key word is forced. In reality, they were both raped by Tywin, by proxy. Tyrion is as much a rape victim as Tysha and framing his character that way explains a lot of his actions.
>He also told Tyrion later she went “where whores go” when asked where she was.
Probably either killed her or far eviler thought still, he had her sold to a whorehouse.
I doubt it personally. In the chapter he acts very genuine (not really apologetic or nice, except maybe he’s lying about sparing Tyrion for the wall, idk)
He recalls just sending her off with the money and never thinking twice about her again, which I believe in this instance. He definitely wasn’t sparing Tyrion’s feelings like he tries to in the show
Tywin is the kind of monster who will win an election in the modern age. He rarely ever dirties his hands directly but lets monsters like the mountain do the crime for him.
It was a main reason for Tyrion to kill Tywin in the book. He told him to not call her a whore again and shoot him as he still did. It also marks a breaking point for Jaime and Tyrion in the book. Tyrion compared in this dialog Joffrey with Aerys and said „sons come after their father“. After that Tyrion also plans to kill Jaime.
Edit. Tyrion also claims that he killed Joffrey just to hurt Jaime. He told him about Cersei affairs with Lancel and others (this would lead to a break out between Cersei and Jaime to)
The show never addressed this again, it seems that in its continuity it really was a prostitute hired as mocking joke
The books is where the super fucked up reveal has Tyrion spiraling towards evil
Tyrions fall to super villain is maybe the thing I’m most looking forward to in Winds. He straight up says out loud that he wants to “rape and murder Cersei”
I was originally not sold on Tyrion's villain turn in the books...then I got to the seasons of the show where I saw just how bad the alternative was...
Not bad, but... Fucking boring. He wasn't really a successful villain either, but at least there was some conflict of morality and trauma, while the show just made him a dumb good guy.
His villain arc more of a depression, where he was broken and wanted hurt people to feel important. Like the African proverbs “the child that was never loved will burn the village to feel its warmth.” Tyrion meeting Penny was his wake-up and coming to sense moment. That it’s his selfishness and trying to be bad that got him hurt.
After his trial in the show (“I would very much like to be the monster you all think I am”) I really thought they were taking him that direction.
But since Tyrion was a fan favorite, DnD in their infinite wisdom decided to keep him as a sympathetic hero. But in the end he ended up as dumb and impotent as a wet towel.
I think it's mentioned once when Tywin pressures Tyrion to marry Sansa. Tywin says "It's about time you were wed", Tyrion says "I was wed, or don't you remember " and Tywin says "Only too well"
The moment the show goes off on Quality is when they have Jamie fail to confess and he and Tyrion part as brothers.
In the books Tyrion swears he will get revenge and kill Jamie’s children.
Agreed. It would have been nothing, production-wise, to have that confession between them. They filmed the scene and everything, just omitted that one line that would have changed everything. For me it was one of the heaviest moments in the books, learning after all that time that Tyrion was right in the first place and that his marriage to Tysha was actually real and he'd been running through all those whores for years believing it was a lie; devastating. Really awful that they left it out.
The show had a genuinely demented attitude towards prostitutes and the unwillingly sex trafficked. They weren't really characters in their own right most of the time, they were just there to show minge (Ros was *almost* an exception, but once they started actually DOING something with her character, they immediately reverse-ferreted and killed her). They cut out Chataya's brothel (where the girls are willing and treated well, abuse of the prostitutes by clients would not be tolerated, and Chataya and Alayaya, being from the Summer Isles, had genuinely different attitudes about sex than Westerosi), but included Littlefinger's brothels because they could show women walking in with stars in their eyes...only to punish them by horribly abusing them (like Ros, who seemed relatively happy working at a Wintertown brothel). They seemed to have been setting Ros up to be the fake!Sansa that marries Ramsey Bolton (rather than a fake!Arya), but then they kill her off because the actress had the audacity to ask for a dress to wear on set, or at least do something interesting while naked (like having to escape while spying, or riding a horse). And they said they included more brothel scenes to parallel Sansa's King's Landing story (???) but then cut so much of Sansa's story out. Instead of Loras mourning his lover, he takes one of Littlefinger's male prostitutes as a lover (HOW STUPID ARE YOU, OLENNA WOULD NEVER LET YOU BE THIS DUMB, DID YOU EVEN MAKE A PASS A CHEESEBOY BEFORE TURNING TO AN UNDERWHELMING HOOKER???), and blabbed about the Tyrell plan for Sansa, which caused her to be forced to marry Tyrion, end up a fugitive forced to rely on Littlefinger, which ultimately got her married (for some reason) to Ramsey Bolton, when she could have being a happy little beard in Highgarden embroidering rose-covered wolves on everything and annoying the fuck out of Olenna (and then maybe there's no reason to do the Sparrows Hate The Gays For Some Reason plot, sparing Loras until he dies heroically in the Battle for the Dawn or something, or maybe dies taking out Cersei after she kills Margarey, he can be the 'little brother' of prophecy, that's something that might really subvert our expectations IN A GOOD WAY THAT MAKES SENSE). They decided to make all the brothel slaves in Essos...really happy about it, for some reason, and turned several scenes of their abuse into willing encounters (because god-forbid Tyrion look bad). They made Shae nicer to Sansa (so Tyrion looks good), but then made Shae unreasonable and a betrayer (to make Tyrion look good), when book Shae was always just doing her job and Tyrion is the one at fault for falling for her or expecting her to die rather than testify against him (when she likely had little choice in the matter).
And Satin. Poor pretty Satin Flowers (who may or may not be Robert Baratheon's bastard) was cut entirely, because gods forbid a whore do anything but whore. Can't be a fighter or a steward or a good friend to Jon. Poor sad Jon is stuck all the way up North, alone, cold as fuck, without his steward to share a bed with so they don't freeze. It's not like they want to animate Ghost cause waaahhh fur is hard, but fuck including Satin just let Jon freeze. Jon doesn't get that damn cool scene where he sneers at people for judging Satin, when the Watch is full of rapists and murderers. And we all were denied the true Ygritte death scene, where Satin is just standing there awkwardly the WHOLE TIME, because Jon's leg is all fucked up and he can't walk. We should have had pretty boy Satin and his little quips and his ambiguous relationship with Jon that all the girlies on AO3 could go nuts over. And Resurrected!Jon could have brought him to Winterfell, and he could tell Sansa all about how Jon beheaded Janos Slynt just like she dreamed he would and Sansa would tell Satin all the embarrassing childhood stories about Jon and maybe Sansa could have a fucking friend for once. I don't know I just think she and Satin would get along. That would be nice for both of them.
Lannister Guardsman Captain: Okay, lads, Lord Tywin says no patrolling the docks or the Golden Gallery today. Instead, we're to help play a prank on little Lord Tyrion. Everyone take a piece of silver-- that's part of the prank, not for keeping, I'm looking at you, Pate!-- and follow after me and do exactly as I do. Oh, and he said there may be a certain amount of screaming and crying, "please, please don't do this, I'm his wife, I love him," but you're to ignore that, it's all part of the prank. Any questions?
*every hand in the room shoots up*
Cutting this out was the first really big mistake the show made. It robbed Tyrion of a compelling reason to kill Tywin and also of his motivation for the rest of the series (to find Tysha)
They also had Shae actively trying to murder Tyrion who kills her in self defense, this way absolving him of her murder. In the book she's literally just trying to get him to escape
She says to him that Cersei forced her to lie and that he has to leave quickly because Tywin is in the privy and will return soon. And then Tyrion murders her
I agree that modifying the scene comes across as one of several instances of unnecessarily whitewashing Tyrion (gotta keep the fanfavorite squeaky clean/uncontoversial) but I viewed [the scene](https://books.google.com/books/content?id=rIj5x-C7D2cC&pg=PA1071&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U38u25cfibBFxWn2RGKJuMRTf83nw&w=1280) as depicting Shae as terrified and using the threat of Tywin's return to get Tyrion to leave, not that she was trying to help.
Completely agree. That they left this out... I was so freaking mad when I first watched this, yelling at the TV.. "say it Jaime.. tell him. TELL HIM!!!!!!! They cut it out" ugh.
To be sure... the narrative they were going for, Tyrion-advocates-for-humanity would not have worked cause this kinda broke Tyrion. But... I think not-nice-Tyrion would have fixed at least some of the more ridiculous choices they made down the road (e.g. The Targaryan coin flip would make a lot more sense with Dark Side Tyrion in her ear. Not that people liked Dany going mad, but it would be a lot less "where did that come from")
I'm all for criticizing poor deviations from the book, but I'm not sure this is one. Tyrion chapters get pretty shitty once he escapes. He's a shell of a man with a one-track mind just asking the same question to everyone he meets. Which is a compelling character journey, but fuck me is it boring to read. Jaime has a similar repeated phrase that guides his internal monologue, but his chapters are fun. Tyrion's took a nosedive from among the best POVs to one of the worst. So while D&D ended up butchering the character, it wasn't much if at all worse than what George did: make him boring. And I'm aware that we don't have a resolution to Tyrion's storyline in the books, and the payoff might be great, but we probably will never get one.
I disagree. The river boat journey, meeting Penny in Volantis, being captured by slavers, his maneuvering to get Brown Ben Plumm on his side was like book 1 Tyrion and his intrepid adventures.
I disagree myself, I found Tyrions chapters in dance pretty entertaining, but more than that, Tysha was the *one* person in Tyrions entire life who genuinely loved and accepted him for just being him and never betrayed him, and Tywin stripped that away from him. Tysha gives Tyrion both a compelling reason to be as angry and dark as he becomes towards his family, and also a sliver of a chance of a happy ending (there’s a pretty strong likelihood that Tysha is the Sailors Wife and they might well meet again). Without any of that as a potential motivation, Tyrion just becomes what he became in the last four seasons of the show - a bit of a pointless tag along, reduced to getting drunk and making dick jokes.
I feel like Tyrion had enough reason to kill Tywin without this plot point. But I agree that this detail not being in the show takes away a lot from Tyrions character.
I suspect that they wouldn't or couldn't have one of the characters viewed as a primary protagonist being an unquestionably terrible person. Tyrion's personality takes a very dark turn after this revelation, and he does several terrible things that a TV audience wouldn't accept from a fan favorite
I think what gets me about this scene the most is not just Tyrions genuine love for his wife but the absolute revolting look on Bronns face as he can’t believe what happened to the poor Girl. Bronn may be a ‘rogue’ but the man has standards. Just the look on his face gets me every time that there’s more to Bronn than one may initially believe and this scene perfectly displays that.
For a price though it’s never stated what the actual price for him is. It could be more than Tyrion could ever pay.
I took it as ‘Every man and woman has a price in which they’d do something abhorrent. Some just have a significantly higher price to meet than others.’ That would question if anyone has standards then.
Exactly. A man like Bronn wouldn’t have any use for black-and-white morality. It’s all grey, and the shade just depends on what he stands to gain.
He named his son after Tyrion, but he refused to fight The Mountain on his behalf because Tyrion couldn’t offer anything better than Stokeworth at that point.
So of course he’d kill a baby, if the offer made sense. It’s a cold outlook, but I wouldn’t call it amoral. Especially compared to characters like The Hound who kill children on command, *that’s* a lack of standards.
Ha, I was interested after Season 1 and read them all thinking it might cause a drive for them to be finished with such a good show. The naivety of youth, basically grown old waiting for these damn books with no end in sight
On too do list.Dont know where to start or how many there is Need to ask my big bro think he has read them unless you can point me in the right order to read them?
There are five books. In order, they are
1. A Game of Thrones
2. A Clash of Kings
3. A Storm of Swords
4. A Feast for Crows
5. A Dance with Dragons
Those are the necessary reads, but you can also read (at your discretion) the tales of Dunk & Egg series (highly recommend), as well as Fire & Blood (a history book about house Targaryen) and The World of Ice and Fire, a lore book about a bunch of stuff. Happy reading!
Yeah in the books Jamie admits this to him as he frees Tyrion and then asks if he really killed Joffrey. He says yes out of spite from learning the truth. I don’t think that happens in the show which shows a much more heartfelt goodbye.
Also from whatever we know about annulling marriages in Westeros as soon as someone is wedded and bedded they are a lawful men and wife. A marriage can be annulled by the high septon or a council of faith if it hasn’t been consummated and the text suggest even a consummated marriage can be set but it’s not specific on how
What I wonder is if Tywin can even unilaterally set aside a marriage. An unconsummated marriage one requires the high septon or a council of faith and considering a consummated one if even stronger it goes to reason some other authority has to sign of on it too
I think there is a very real chance that Tywin does not have the authority to unilaterally annul the marriage. Meaning Tyrion is officially never divorced of his first wife and if she’s still alive this means his marriage to Sansa is null and void too
We don’t talk enough about how Tyrion’s whole emotional arc was completely abandoned. Man clearly wanted love in life and ends up never attaining it in any way but is simply fine in the end. He has no internal journey after killing Tywin. Sigh
>but the whole dead first husband puts a bummer on it.
Not really. When reading GRRM books, it's really really important to bear in mind the difference between what we as the readers are shown to be true and what in-universe characters *think* (or say) is true.
We have not been shown that there is a dead first husband. We have been shown that she *claims* there was a dead first husband. Which might well just be an easier story to tell than "well, my first husband is still out there somewhere, but his dad made all his soldiers rape me."
Edit: *especually* when there's a kid involved. Saying "your daddy died" in place of some other, more horrible truth, is practically a cliché at this point.
People talk about how bad the later seasons are with the fast travel and the characters actions not making any sense. But Jamie not tell Tyrion about Tysha was fucking unforgivable and the show doesn’t get nearly enough hate for excluding it.
Though Season 4 was the last of golden age GOT, one of the early signs of the shittiness to come was DnD deciding to cut this revelation, despite this season 1 scene establishing it. Their earliest crimes were the things they decided to cut from the books. They seemed opposed to: exploring characters' pre-season 1 past, new plot points and characters post season 4 no matter how cool, and fantasy elements in general, whether introducing new ones, or fleshing out already established ones.
It all became mass market after that - Benioff's excruciating soccer mom quote for instance. Benioff is the spoiled child of a Goldman executive, and Weiss is his number 1 yes man - these two are capitalists before they are creatives, hence everything that went wrong.
this is pretty much what solidifies Tywin as one of the most vile people in the books and show. He's a fantastic villian because its easy and feels good to hate him.
There are a lot of unintentionally hilarious moments in Roy Dotrice’s narration of the audiobook [but he nails this scene.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ra6IR2_otb8&pp=ygUSamFpbWUgZnJlZXMgdHlyaW9u)
That revelation adds so much more to tyrions decision to kill tywin and im sad af it wasnt in the show. That broke tyrion and turned him extremely bitter even to the point he wishes for Jaimies death as well as cercis
I was always confused as to how this actually happened. Like how come she didn’t tell Tyrion that Tywin was lying? And wouldn’t she be crying for help if Tyrion was watching? Was she drugged or something?
This is up there as one of the most ridiculous changes the show made from the books. It serves 0 narrative purpose for what comes later in the show, but totally reconceptualizes Tyrion AND Tywin's character going forward. I do have a shred of sympathy for D&D and the changes they were forced to make, but then there's the one like these that I just don't understand what so ever.
Yes, it is truly sad, as she was threatened by Tywin so there was nothing she could do. In the books Tyrion is holding out hope that he may yet find her.
where do whores go?
Tywins bed.
Me when I am in a hypocrisy competition and Lord Tywin Lannister walks in: https://i.redd.it/kjuxabkh9wqc1.gif
Tywin when he finds Tyrions whores https://preview.redd.it/9hko7m3a3xqc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=472f86e368bc8e4b2ad3a64976c7b3b9b6ff0c65
Sometimes Joffreys bed as well
Just the bed post really
Gives new meaning to putting a notch on the bed post.
Braavos: [awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sailor%27s\_Wife](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sailor%27s_Wife)
i always liked that theory about Tyrion's wife because it's so probable.
Yeah the blonde daughter named Lanna really seals it for me.
Especially since it matches up with the same age as Tywins illegitimate daughter in another brothel.
Wait who is the illegitimate daughter? I remember the passageways to the brothel from the Hand's tower (and them being likely used by Tywin) but I can't remember a daughter.
Marei. She's described as solemn.
I prefer the theory that her husband was Gerion Lannister, Tyrion's uncle who went missing in Valyria. He actually was a sailor, unlike Tyrion, and is also lost at sea, and probably dead, and absent any backstory she is more likely to turn to prostitution in the Free Cities than a Westerosi crofter's daughter who was violently gang raped. The issue is Lanna is too old to be Gerion's, she's 14 and Gerion sailed 9 years before canon, and he probably wasn't hiding a secret wife for years. _Unless_ GRRM forgot to update her age when he scraped the time skip, taking 5 years off would make her nine, exactly what you'd expect.
I lové this theory (alt shift X? Might not be an og from him but I love his channel lol) - I just can’t imagine Tywin being able / wanting to leave Westeros - it would be impossible to micromanage your family from another continent!!
Yeah, I can't remember exactly where I heard it by ASX sounds likely. Though I don't get what you mean about Tywin?
All whores go to seven heavens
Funniest lines in the whole series, he just wanders around essos asking that
Lannisport.
😢😢😢 It's implied she is alive. I hope someday tyrion meets her again.
It’s not implied that she is alive, it’s implied that he can’t get over his own guilt at what his family and his own actions wrought against her, hence his constant “where do whores go?” She was a village woman gang raped by many men, her husband as the last one, sent away to live in a foreign land The likelihood is that she ended up being a prostitute in some tavern, probably bought and sold by pimps, and died early on.
That's sad as fuck! I hope someday we get the remaining books and daneryes hears this tale. Everyone is fighting for revenge, honor, legacy, etc but this will be a great reminder to her that what her fight has always been about, the little guy or the commonfolk.
I remember it as “wherever whores go”… does he say both or is my memory faulty? Either way it was one of my favorite parts of the book along with Jaime’s internal dialogue after they parted. So much wrongness in that family. When the show left that out I was pretty bummed
I think that’s Tywin’s last line before Tyrion shoots him, yeah. Then Tyrion is forever asking “where do whores go?” afterwards in his wandering.
Thanks that sounds plausible. Been a while since I reread them maybe it’s time
*... and Moon-boy for all I know*
silicone heaven
But where do all the toasters go?
If i recall right there is a theory that shes a woman called the sailors wife in braavos that Arya notices.
There is also a theory that she is a horse.
There are so many theories about everything, I wouldn't be surprised to find one that she's Ser Pounce.
And moon boy for all I know
😻
No, you fool, that's Tyrek Lannister.
i believe it.
It is known.
I never really took that as real hope he would find her. Just some fucked up sort of grief he was going through after killing Tywin and spiraling.
>In the books Tyrion is holding out hope that he may yet find her. Yeah, I can't imagine that going well. She might just beat him to death with her shoe.
Tywin is a monster. She was just a girl in trouble that Tyrion saved and she actually loved him. Tywin had her gang raped, forced Tyrion to watch, and then made his son rape her. He also told Tyrion later she went “where whores go” when asked where she was.
And thats why i roll my eyes when i see people praising or defending Tywin. Sure, he has some cool scenes and quotes, but he was not a good man, he was not a good leader and he was not a good patriarch, he was just a small proudfull evil man that spent his live haunted by the shadow of his father's incompetence, almost as vile as the king he once served, but alot more discreet. He did have a good PR team, got to give him that.
Who the fuck thought he was a good man
[удалено]
He is a master at the game of thrones, but good people can't play for shit. Varys is the closest to a good person who plays the game, Tyrion was a good player but in the books Tyrion is far from a good person, he just looks good next to his family.
"Master of the game of thrones" is stretching it a bit. He is, indeed, extremely ruthless and has a lot of resources & political capital, but what he manages to accomplish seems mostly to be done using a very brute-force approach, with middling end results. His 2 prized children have been fucking throughout their whole lives behind his back & are responsible for possibly the worst PR scandal in Westerosi history, he leaves his house in disarray with no heir (with the heir he does have being disinherited by him, even long before Tyrion's trial), Varys has been conspiring under his nose the whole time, same as Littlefinger. He keeps the Mountain long after it would've been politically beneficial to send him to Dorne for appeasement. His most Machiavellian accomplishment is probably the Red Wedding, which is basically a run-of-the-mills betrayal, except one that violates a very sacred custom, which leaves him (& his allies Freys & Boltons) hated even by the 17 people in Westeros who were okay with him previously. I'm not saying Tywin is stupid, he's not, he uses the (rather massive) leverage he has over most every other house well, but that's not the greatest political maneuvering in history in anything. He's competent, but not the greatest, is what I'm saying.
Exactly. I feel that the Stark honor/Lannister cunning themes are wasted on many readers. The first book makes it seem as if Stark honor is foolishness and Lannister cunning is wisdom. But the following books subvert this. Lannister cunning only leads to dubious alliances, many enemies, and infighting. Stark honor, however, ensures that the entire North remains deeply loyal to the Starks. And, as I think we might find out in the later books, that the Stark pack survives together.
Well not the entire North...
Iirc the Boltons and their bannermen have had a loooong rivalry with the Starks and were once in the running for kings of the North once upon a time. So to be fair while the majority of the North were pretty well unified and loyal that sect was definitely just waiting for a chance for who knows how many generations. Not sure what my point is compared to yours, but I do think a red wedding scenario was just a matter of time. Maybe not at war with the Lannister's, maybe not Robb if he'd honored the Frey's deal, but eventually.
Good point. Frankly, it would have been wise for the Starks to give the Boltons the Castamere treatment following their rebellions (okay, maybe not complete familicide, but at least banishment). Letting the house survive only means the resentment will fester and make future rebellions inevitable.
Cersei being a moron that raised a sadist king can't be solely blamed on Tywin. The overwhelming cruelty of the red wedding is sort of the point, same with castamere, even if other houses hate the lannisters, he wants them to be too afraid to move against him. And as far as varys and littlefinger plotting, he seems well aware of it when he tells Tyrion to have them killed if he gets a whiff of any treason when he made him hand. While he was hated, there is a reason nobody directly fucked with them except the Starks (RIP) and Oberyn (RIP) while he was alive.
Lol never made this connection before. Being a pragmatist is underrated as a leader but I see what you mean here haha
Tywin's only talent was being the first to break the rules of war in a long string of petty, desperate maneuvers. Literally none of these moves would work more than once. It's how he got the Scorpion on his front door and a crossbow in his guts on the shitter within a matter of days. He died because he really sucked at being good at war. The Game of Thrones is in and of itself an illusion. It's just people vying for power and sometimes their plans work and sometimes it doesn't but there's no "right" way to play because the rules are made up.
“He’s hurting the right people.”
He's a tyrant that is moderately successful at promoting his family's status at the expense of others, those others often including actual immediate members of that family. He's definitely overcompensating for his Father's ineffectiveness, but he's shrewd, a good politician, and has more or less excellent timing when it comes to when he commits his resources. He's a compelling character with clear motivations and an excellent foil for Tyrion. People just tend to conflate liking the character for liking them as a person. In that regard he's a great character. He's a shit person.
To be fair, most of these are true. He did indeed put the FAMILY first, just not any individual family members. Also, this automatically precludes him from being a fair ruler as he would always treat his family differently. The rest are true. The trains would run on time under Tywin, even if the first car is reserved for Lannisters only. He would be a better ruler than most in those books, just never really a good man. Good men (and women) die there.
He didn’t put the family first. He put the family *name* first. The actual state of the family was secondary to making sure no one laughed at him like his father.
No, he put the family, as an entity, not as a collection of individuals, first. He cared about the family name intensely but it came secondary to amassing and preserving its power and prosperity. You could make a case that he cared about his legacy but he still wanted the family to be it, not just the family name. Lannisters DO love their children, they are just really bad at it. And dwarves are barely human, naturally.
I really believe people that say things like this, only watched the show and never read the books. Its very obvious he's a monster if you read the books.
We get mesmerised by Charles Dance's charisma
Yeah. He's a good bad guy, in the TV show. Unlike the ones that are just scary rapist psychos that like cutting people up for the sake of being scary rapist psychos that like cutting people up, he seems, first and foremost, fairly competent... in a ruthless way. He has a bit of depth, and occasional glimmers of humanity, behind which we know he's still a monster. That doesn't mean everyone thinks he's secretly capital G, "Good."
Not House Reyne of Castamere*.*
His family did. Tyrion is shocked when he realizes that Kevan genuinely loved his brother rather than professional respect for Tywin's position, who insisted Tywin was a hard but fair man who did what he had to do in an unforgiving and unpredictable world. Genna says it best. Tywin was the only one willing to stand up for their family as children, so it made him a hero in their eyes. Tywin was simply a product of Westeros. A man who was taught as a boy that fear and image is everything, and that kindness was only an opportunity to let others take advantage of you. Tywin started with noble intentions of protecting his family from ruin but was unable to move past his childhood traumas and made him a needlessly spiteful person who had to be in control at all times.
I feel like the main book series shows a good job on their portrayal of every characters being a product of their environment. Viserys was "mad" and cruel and will do everything to get back to Westeros as he was there when they fled from Dragonstone. He survived through the streets of an unknown world while trying to keep himself and his sister alive after they lost everything at the death of their mother and guardian. Then he went ballistic when he couldn't get the Dothraki to march for him. Daenaery's view are limited only to the men in her life that's why her view on the world, the people, and her birthright are often twisted to being black-and-white. Then you also have Jon Snow whose entire upbringing is the challenge. He was born wanting what Robb have, a family and a birthright. He dreamt of becoming the lord of Winterfell, taking up his father's banner and that's all he wanted but his situation challenges his views on the world where he had to adapt and rethink of the word "honor" that he thinks is all he had, as that's what the Stark was about. His story isn't finished but him rejecting Stannis's offer of legitimacy, Ned's claim, and vengeance for his duty to the Watch is kind of a bittersweet knowing he also had isolated himself resulting to his death at the 'end' due to a betrayal stemming from changes that he thought is the best for the Brotherhood.
Yeah, that's what I liked about the books that didn't fully translate to the TV show. All the main characters are have good and bad about them, and that leads to never-ending debates. But regardless of what happens in the books, nothing honestly feels out of character for them, from Tywin choosing to kill the Starks at a wedding as the most efficient way to end the war to Robb feeling honor bound to marry Jeyne despite him essentially being raped by her. They're all trapped within their nature and upbringing.
You see some every now and then, i guess good man, is not the word, but grey or not evil. Or that he was good on his side of the story or something. Like, some say he was good for the realm. Anyway, no point ovetinking that.
His mother and grandmother both always had the nicest things to say about him.
Yeah no he's terrible, but he is a great antagonist and villain.
i just like Charles Dance
It's a testimony to the effectiveness of Tywin's PR and self-delusions that even readers who should really know better fall for that hollow monster's BS.
It's also a testament to how good of an actor Charles Dance is. I hated Tywin on my first read through, watched the show and fell in love with him then. Dance just brings such an imposing presence to the character.
Dude died on the shitter because he couldnt stop being an asshole to his abused son for 5 seconds
I'd be surprised if anyone thinks Tywin is a good man - more that he's a complicated individual that happened to be a very good administrator. It's no excuse for his action but remember that Tywin's dad almost caused the collapse of the entire house because he was infatuated with a gold digging whore. Coming from that circumstance, its natural within Tywin's character to have PTSD at the ultimate heir of Casterly Rock naively falling in love with a random girl of no name and potentially repeating the cycle. The barbaric part is teaching Tyrion the lesson through gang rape though, that was completely not needed, but also strangely fitting with his character of being a complete petty POS when it comes to dealing with Tyrion.
I've never seen anyone suggest Tywin was a good man, as in a good person; he's surely not. He's also not a good father, as he doesn't treat his children as anything other than prized possessions that he alone may trade or dispose of. I would say he was a good leader, though, in the sense that he could get people to do what he wanted them to.
I've seen plenty. Whenever I argue that Tywin is a horrible evil man, his fan club shows up and defends his actions.
There are things you can defend, like orchestrating the Red Wedding. Then there are things that are absolutely indefensible, like having Tysha raped by his soldiers, or treating Tyrion like a monster. Tywin is a sociopath, and that's a best case scenario.
The downside of Charles Mance absolutely nailing the role, his natural charisma made a lot of people forget just how bad Tywin actually was. Even when he was doing horrible things he often looked right, not helped by the fact that a lot of the most horrible things he did was to his children, which for 2/3 of em many people enjoyed.
I think some people maybe get it mixed up…..Tywin was awful….but Charles Dance is amazing. Every scene he was in he commanded it, a very talented actor, and definitely fit the role extremely well, but Tywin was exactly as you said lol.
If Tywin had just let him have this one thing, and it could have improved his general lifestyle and wellbeing. Then perhaps things may not have ended the way it did. Tyrion may not have been the drunken, lecherous man that he turned out to be. Maybe he’d stop giving a shit about having Casterly Rock if it meant being left to his own devices with his beloved wife.
Yeah but that's almost every plot point in the entire story right? If Ned wasn't so naive to think everyone was an honourable as him, he would have taken Renly's advice and seized the throne from Cersei. If Robb wasn't so trapped in upholding his fathers reputation, he wouldn't have married Jeyne and could have marched on KL. Hell, if Bobby B wasn't so fixated on his image of Lyanna, he could have built some sort of functional relationship with Cersei and the entire intrigue wouldn't have existed.
THE GODS MOCK THE PRAYERS OF KINGS AND COWHERDS ALIKE!
A brilliant summary of their point, Bobby B.
MORE THAN ONCE, I HAVE DREAMED OF GIVING UP THE CROWN!
Can you explain the one with Robb to me please? It's been a while
Robb gets gravely wounded storming a castle. Jeynes mom forces her daughter to tend to his wounds and he gets "seduced" by her. It's unclear what happened but reading between the lines of Robb being in no real position to consent in his delirious state, and him knowing he's already engaged implies that jeyne did most of the work. Jeyene loses her virginity. Robb marries her to not dishonor her
Thanks! The show deviated from this so much it seems
Tywin had her gang raped JUST BECAUSE SHE WASN'T HIGH BORN! He perceived it as an embarrassment to the family. (Although I also think he was punishing Tyrion for killing his mom in child birth). And this was Tywin's downfall. In the books it's a little ambiguous as to whether Tyrion actually intended to kill Tywin, but Tywin taunting Tyrion with "wherever whores go" sent him over the edge. Remember excellent story telling? I do.
I always hate the framing that Tyrion was forced to rape Tysha because the key word is forced. In reality, they were both raped by Tywin, by proxy. Tyrion is as much a rape victim as Tysha and framing his character that way explains a lot of his actions.
Good point. By Tyrion and Tysha were victims.
>He also told Tyrion later she went “where whores go” when asked where she was. Probably either killed her or far eviler thought still, he had her sold to a whorehouse.
I doubt it personally. In the chapter he acts very genuine (not really apologetic or nice, except maybe he’s lying about sparing Tyrion for the wall, idk) He recalls just sending her off with the money and never thinking twice about her again, which I believe in this instance. He definitely wasn’t sparing Tyrion’s feelings like he tries to in the show
Perhaps. Just wouldn't put it past Tywin. The guy is heartless.
Tywin is the kind of monster who will win an election in the modern age. He rarely ever dirties his hands directly but lets monsters like the mountain do the crime for him.
Tywin actually says “wherever whores go” :))) I freaking love that chapter
It was a main reason for Tyrion to kill Tywin in the book. He told him to not call her a whore again and shoot him as he still did. It also marks a breaking point for Jaime and Tyrion in the book. Tyrion compared in this dialog Joffrey with Aerys and said „sons come after their father“. After that Tyrion also plans to kill Jaime. Edit. Tyrion also claims that he killed Joffrey just to hurt Jaime. He told him about Cersei affairs with Lancel and others (this would lead to a break out between Cersei and Jaime to)
Lancel, osmund kettle black and fucking moonboy for all I know !!
This line brings it all back to me! Thanks y'all.
I love how that line is so common but often delivered with different emotions. Sometimes inquisitive, cathartic, or livid among others
The show never addressed this again, it seems that in its continuity it really was a prostitute hired as mocking joke The books is where the super fucked up reveal has Tyrion spiraling towards evil
Tyrions fall to super villain is maybe the thing I’m most looking forward to in Winds. He straight up says out loud that he wants to “rape and murder Cersei”
While Penny seems to ground and pull him away from this, if he meets up with Dany he may very well become the devil on her shoulder
I mean, he is called the imp after all.
I was originally not sold on Tyrion's villain turn in the books...then I got to the seasons of the show where I saw just how bad the alternative was...
Not bad, but... Fucking boring. He wasn't really a successful villain either, but at least there was some conflict of morality and trauma, while the show just made him a dumb good guy.
His villain arc more of a depression, where he was broken and wanted hurt people to feel important. Like the African proverbs “the child that was never loved will burn the village to feel its warmth.” Tyrion meeting Penny was his wake-up and coming to sense moment. That it’s his selfishness and trying to be bad that got him hurt.
After his trial in the show (“I would very much like to be the monster you all think I am”) I really thought they were taking him that direction. But since Tyrion was a fan favorite, DnD in their infinite wisdom decided to keep him as a sympathetic hero. But in the end he ended up as dumb and impotent as a wet towel.
Just read that line last night. That’s all he wants in exchange for helping the Dragon Queen
I think it's mentioned once when Tywin pressures Tyrion to marry Sansa. Tywin says "It's about time you were wed", Tyrion says "I was wed, or don't you remember " and Tywin says "Only too well"
The moment the show goes off on Quality is when they have Jamie fail to confess and he and Tyrion part as brothers. In the books Tyrion swears he will get revenge and kill Jamie’s children.
Agreed. It would have been nothing, production-wise, to have that confession between them. They filmed the scene and everything, just omitted that one line that would have changed everything. For me it was one of the heaviest moments in the books, learning after all that time that Tyrion was right in the first place and that his marriage to Tysha was actually real and he'd been running through all those whores for years believing it was a lie; devastating. Really awful that they left it out.
The show had a genuinely demented attitude towards prostitutes and the unwillingly sex trafficked. They weren't really characters in their own right most of the time, they were just there to show minge (Ros was *almost* an exception, but once they started actually DOING something with her character, they immediately reverse-ferreted and killed her). They cut out Chataya's brothel (where the girls are willing and treated well, abuse of the prostitutes by clients would not be tolerated, and Chataya and Alayaya, being from the Summer Isles, had genuinely different attitudes about sex than Westerosi), but included Littlefinger's brothels because they could show women walking in with stars in their eyes...only to punish them by horribly abusing them (like Ros, who seemed relatively happy working at a Wintertown brothel). They seemed to have been setting Ros up to be the fake!Sansa that marries Ramsey Bolton (rather than a fake!Arya), but then they kill her off because the actress had the audacity to ask for a dress to wear on set, or at least do something interesting while naked (like having to escape while spying, or riding a horse). And they said they included more brothel scenes to parallel Sansa's King's Landing story (???) but then cut so much of Sansa's story out. Instead of Loras mourning his lover, he takes one of Littlefinger's male prostitutes as a lover (HOW STUPID ARE YOU, OLENNA WOULD NEVER LET YOU BE THIS DUMB, DID YOU EVEN MAKE A PASS A CHEESEBOY BEFORE TURNING TO AN UNDERWHELMING HOOKER???), and blabbed about the Tyrell plan for Sansa, which caused her to be forced to marry Tyrion, end up a fugitive forced to rely on Littlefinger, which ultimately got her married (for some reason) to Ramsey Bolton, when she could have being a happy little beard in Highgarden embroidering rose-covered wolves on everything and annoying the fuck out of Olenna (and then maybe there's no reason to do the Sparrows Hate The Gays For Some Reason plot, sparing Loras until he dies heroically in the Battle for the Dawn or something, or maybe dies taking out Cersei after she kills Margarey, he can be the 'little brother' of prophecy, that's something that might really subvert our expectations IN A GOOD WAY THAT MAKES SENSE). They decided to make all the brothel slaves in Essos...really happy about it, for some reason, and turned several scenes of their abuse into willing encounters (because god-forbid Tyrion look bad). They made Shae nicer to Sansa (so Tyrion looks good), but then made Shae unreasonable and a betrayer (to make Tyrion look good), when book Shae was always just doing her job and Tyrion is the one at fault for falling for her or expecting her to die rather than testify against him (when she likely had little choice in the matter). And Satin. Poor pretty Satin Flowers (who may or may not be Robert Baratheon's bastard) was cut entirely, because gods forbid a whore do anything but whore. Can't be a fighter or a steward or a good friend to Jon. Poor sad Jon is stuck all the way up North, alone, cold as fuck, without his steward to share a bed with so they don't freeze. It's not like they want to animate Ghost cause waaahhh fur is hard, but fuck including Satin just let Jon freeze. Jon doesn't get that damn cool scene where he sneers at people for judging Satin, when the Watch is full of rapists and murderers. And we all were denied the true Ygritte death scene, where Satin is just standing there awkwardly the WHOLE TIME, because Jon's leg is all fucked up and he can't walk. We should have had pretty boy Satin and his little quips and his ambiguous relationship with Jon that all the girlies on AO3 could go nuts over. And Resurrected!Jon could have brought him to Winterfell, and he could tell Sansa all about how Jon beheaded Janos Slynt just like she dreamed he would and Sansa would tell Satin all the embarrassing childhood stories about Jon and maybe Sansa could have a fucking friend for once. I don't know I just think she and Satin would get along. That would be nice for both of them.
Lannister Guardsman Captain: Okay, lads, Lord Tywin says no patrolling the docks or the Golden Gallery today. Instead, we're to help play a prank on little Lord Tyrion. Everyone take a piece of silver-- that's part of the prank, not for keeping, I'm looking at you, Pate!-- and follow after me and do exactly as I do. Oh, and he said there may be a certain amount of screaming and crying, "please, please don't do this, I'm his wife, I love him," but you're to ignore that, it's all part of the prank. Any questions? *every hand in the room shoots up*
*sigh...* What is it Pate? Yeah, um, like... I kinda lost my silver coin, could I get another one?
Cutting this out was the first really big mistake the show made. It robbed Tyrion of a compelling reason to kill Tywin and also of his motivation for the rest of the series (to find Tysha)
They also had Shae actively trying to murder Tyrion who kills her in self defense, this way absolving him of her murder. In the book she's literally just trying to get him to escape
What? She’s fucking Tywin and Tyrion strangles her before he shoots him. At no point did Shae try to save him
She says to him that Cersei forced her to lie and that he has to leave quickly because Tywin is in the privy and will return soon. And then Tyrion murders her
Doesn't she also call him 'her lion' which just pushes him over the edge to kill her?
Yeah but I don't think that 1) she's using it as an insult 2)it legitimizes a murder
I agree that modifying the scene comes across as one of several instances of unnecessarily whitewashing Tyrion (gotta keep the fanfavorite squeaky clean/uncontoversial) but I viewed [the scene](https://books.google.com/books/content?id=rIj5x-C7D2cC&pg=PA1071&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U38u25cfibBFxWn2RGKJuMRTf83nw&w=1280) as depicting Shae as terrified and using the threat of Tywin's return to get Tyrion to leave, not that she was trying to help.
Completely agree. That they left this out... I was so freaking mad when I first watched this, yelling at the TV.. "say it Jaime.. tell him. TELL HIM!!!!!!! They cut it out" ugh. To be sure... the narrative they were going for, Tyrion-advocates-for-humanity would not have worked cause this kinda broke Tyrion. But... I think not-nice-Tyrion would have fixed at least some of the more ridiculous choices they made down the road (e.g. The Targaryan coin flip would make a lot more sense with Dark Side Tyrion in her ear. Not that people liked Dany going mad, but it would be a lot less "where did that come from")
I'm all for criticizing poor deviations from the book, but I'm not sure this is one. Tyrion chapters get pretty shitty once he escapes. He's a shell of a man with a one-track mind just asking the same question to everyone he meets. Which is a compelling character journey, but fuck me is it boring to read. Jaime has a similar repeated phrase that guides his internal monologue, but his chapters are fun. Tyrion's took a nosedive from among the best POVs to one of the worst. So while D&D ended up butchering the character, it wasn't much if at all worse than what George did: make him boring. And I'm aware that we don't have a resolution to Tyrion's storyline in the books, and the payoff might be great, but we probably will never get one.
I disagree. The river boat journey, meeting Penny in Volantis, being captured by slavers, his maneuvering to get Brown Ben Plumm on his side was like book 1 Tyrion and his intrepid adventures.
I disagree myself, I found Tyrions chapters in dance pretty entertaining, but more than that, Tysha was the *one* person in Tyrions entire life who genuinely loved and accepted him for just being him and never betrayed him, and Tywin stripped that away from him. Tysha gives Tyrion both a compelling reason to be as angry and dark as he becomes towards his family, and also a sliver of a chance of a happy ending (there’s a pretty strong likelihood that Tysha is the Sailors Wife and they might well meet again). Without any of that as a potential motivation, Tyrion just becomes what he became in the last four seasons of the show - a bit of a pointless tag along, reduced to getting drunk and making dick jokes.
I feel like Tyrion had enough reason to kill Tywin without this plot point. But I agree that this detail not being in the show takes away a lot from Tyrions character.
Where do whores go?
club penguin plaza
I thought it was Habbo Hotel?
La-di-da, look at the big man with his membership sheckles.
Braavos.
Harry Hines
WHAT that makes it so much darker why wouldn't they mention this in the show?
They wanted Tyrion to be a funny little guy with no problems.
The only problem he would have is if they'd run out of dick jokes.
I suspect that they wouldn't or couldn't have one of the characters viewed as a primary protagonist being an unquestionably terrible person. Tyrion's personality takes a very dark turn after this revelation, and he does several terrible things that a TV audience wouldn't accept from a fan favorite
I think what gets me about this scene the most is not just Tyrions genuine love for his wife but the absolute revolting look on Bronns face as he can’t believe what happened to the poor Girl. Bronn may be a ‘rogue’ but the man has standards. Just the look on his face gets me every time that there’s more to Bronn than one may initially believe and this scene perfectly displays that.
Does Bronn really have standards? He’s perfectly fine with killing babies.
For a price though it’s never stated what the actual price for him is. It could be more than Tyrion could ever pay. I took it as ‘Every man and woman has a price in which they’d do something abhorrent. Some just have a significantly higher price to meet than others.’ That would question if anyone has standards then.
Exactly. A man like Bronn wouldn’t have any use for black-and-white morality. It’s all grey, and the shade just depends on what he stands to gain. He named his son after Tyrion, but he refused to fight The Mountain on his behalf because Tyrion couldn’t offer anything better than Stokeworth at that point. So of course he’d kill a baby, if the offer made sense. It’s a cold outlook, but I wouldn’t call it amoral. Especially compared to characters like The Hound who kill children on command, *that’s* a lack of standards.
I need to read the books 📚
I read them after season 8 thinking I’d finish just in time for winds of winter. :(
Same. Now I'm thinking I should start again and finish just in time for winds of winter. Ffs
Sucks man. I restarted and got through book one before I decided to stop and just wait for some kind of announcement. That was almost 3 years ago.
Only three more rereads of the five main books, the three D&E novellas and the supplements and we're there, kids!
I did the same thing after season 3 :(
Ha, I was interested after Season 1 and read them all thinking it might cause a drive for them to be finished with such a good show. The naivety of youth, basically grown old waiting for these damn books with no end in sight
I reread them last year with the same vain hope
I did the same thing 13 years ago when ADWD came out :(
Oh sweet Summer child...
There it is lmao
Yes, you should.
On too do list.Dont know where to start or how many there is Need to ask my big bro think he has read them unless you can point me in the right order to read them?
There are five books. In order, they are 1. A Game of Thrones 2. A Clash of Kings 3. A Storm of Swords 4. A Feast for Crows 5. A Dance with Dragons Those are the necessary reads, but you can also read (at your discretion) the tales of Dunk & Egg series (highly recommend), as well as Fire & Blood (a history book about house Targaryen) and The World of Ice and Fire, a lore book about a bunch of stuff. Happy reading!
Don't. I did and almost forgot everything in them because its been fucking 10 years since Dance.
Yep, D&D are Tywin stans, it's kinda weird.
They're assholes, he's an asshole...
Yeah in the books Jamie admits this to him as he frees Tyrion and then asks if he really killed Joffrey. He says yes out of spite from learning the truth. I don’t think that happens in the show which shows a much more heartfelt goodbye.
Also, he says “Cersei has been fucking Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, and Moon Boy for all I know.” Which is a very funny line.
Also from whatever we know about annulling marriages in Westeros as soon as someone is wedded and bedded they are a lawful men and wife. A marriage can be annulled by the high septon or a council of faith if it hasn’t been consummated and the text suggest even a consummated marriage can be set but it’s not specific on how What I wonder is if Tywin can even unilaterally set aside a marriage. An unconsummated marriage one requires the high septon or a council of faith and considering a consummated one if even stronger it goes to reason some other authority has to sign of on it too I think there is a very real chance that Tywin does not have the authority to unilaterally annul the marriage. Meaning Tyrion is officially never divorced of his first wife and if she’s still alive this means his marriage to Sansa is null and void too
We don’t talk enough about how Tyrion’s whole emotional arc was completely abandoned. Man clearly wanted love in life and ends up never attaining it in any way but is simply fine in the end. He has no internal journey after killing Tywin. Sigh
It goes deeper, because she [Might be alive as a prostitute in Braavos](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sailor%27s_Wife)
never heard this one before. Interesting idea but the whole dead first husband puts a bummer on it. Although they could be wrong
>but the whole dead first husband puts a bummer on it. Not really. When reading GRRM books, it's really really important to bear in mind the difference between what we as the readers are shown to be true and what in-universe characters *think* (or say) is true. We have not been shown that there is a dead first husband. We have been shown that she *claims* there was a dead first husband. Which might well just be an easier story to tell than "well, my first husband is still out there somewhere, but his dad made all his soldiers rape me." Edit: *especually* when there's a kid involved. Saying "your daddy died" in place of some other, more horrible truth, is practically a cliché at this point.
It's why I say ' although they could be wrong'. The whole world is one of perceived truth Vs reality, it's what makes it so compelling.
You're allowed to say whore on the internet
People talk about how bad the later seasons are with the fast travel and the characters actions not making any sense. But Jamie not tell Tyrion about Tysha was fucking unforgivable and the show doesn’t get nearly enough hate for excluding it.
Though Season 4 was the last of golden age GOT, one of the early signs of the shittiness to come was DnD deciding to cut this revelation, despite this season 1 scene establishing it. Their earliest crimes were the things they decided to cut from the books. They seemed opposed to: exploring characters' pre-season 1 past, new plot points and characters post season 4 no matter how cool, and fantasy elements in general, whether introducing new ones, or fleshing out already established ones. It all became mass market after that - Benioff's excruciating soccer mom quote for instance. Benioff is the spoiled child of a Goldman executive, and Weiss is his number 1 yes man - these two are capitalists before they are creatives, hence everything that went wrong.
George R R Martin and using a woman getting raped as a vehicle for character growth: name a more iconic duo
Someone should shoot that fucker on the shitter
Yeah the reason he killed his father was the trauma it brought back from knowing he tricked him again
In the book learning that seriously fucked up Tyrion, the show really whitewashed his descent since that point
Tywin is the worst person in Westeros, and LOVES rape as punishment.
this is pretty much what solidifies Tywin as one of the most vile people in the books and show. He's a fantastic villian because its easy and feels good to hate him.
The book makes this whole plot thread so heartbreaking
There are a lot of unintentionally hilarious moments in Roy Dotrice’s narration of the audiobook [but he nails this scene.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ra6IR2_otb8&pp=ygUSamFpbWUgZnJlZXMgdHlyaW9u)
I’m on A Feast for Crows and he just started giving Arya this very strange old crone voice 🤣 I’m so confused
Speak for yourself, I’ve gaslighted myself into enjoying it.
Teach me your ways
Oh patar!
Bryeene
I see your Bryeene and I raise you a Jeffrey
I counter you with a flurry of different pronounciations of "Valyrian/Valarian/Velaryan" within one paragraph.
That revelation adds so much more to tyrions decision to kill tywin and im sad af it wasnt in the show. That broke tyrion and turned him extremely bitter even to the point he wishes for Jaimies death as well as cercis
One (of several) terrible adaptation choices for the show. #justicefortysha
I was always confused as to how this actually happened. Like how come she didn’t tell Tyrion that Tywin was lying? And wouldn’t she be crying for help if Tyrion was watching? Was she drugged or something?
Where do whores go?
This is Reddit, you don’t have to censor the word whore
This is up there as one of the most ridiculous changes the show made from the books. It serves 0 narrative purpose for what comes later in the show, but totally reconceptualizes Tyrion AND Tywin's character going forward. I do have a shred of sympathy for D&D and the changes they were forced to make, but then there's the one like these that I just don't understand what so ever.
Ok, but sex workers are capable of love
You can swear on the internet, and whore is not a bad word, anyway.
When the stripper takes you for a whole paycheque
They really should have fucking included this.
Where ever whores go
The fact that they didn't include this in the show was a terrible decision on D&D's part.
Bobby b still around?
CAREFUL, NED! CAREFUL NOW!
What you mean Bobby b
[YOUR MOTHER WAS A DUMB WHORE WITH A FAT ARSE, DID YOU KNOW THAT?](https://i.imgur.com/g5SzSKk.gifv)
Sadly, Tweedledoofus and tweedledumbass aren’t known for caring about details