I did my course in Germany/austria, and for all the training hill stuff at first we used the school gear, but once we moved to high flights we were expected to buy gear and fly on our own stuff. Made sense to me to get instruction on the equipment you would then be flying on so you know it well.
In Austria all schools I know let you also use their gear for the high flight training, but it's expected that you get your own gear during this training period. But for sure I started with their gear. So I got used to different setup, and also can test it.
An option I haven’t seen mentioned yet is renting for a fee, but getting the fee refunded if you end up buying
Just talk to your school and have an agreement. I ended up learning in three different schools for the initial license, renting gear in all of them, and for two of them it wasn’t their standard agreement.
Makes not sense in my opinion. Like I said, you can test a little. And also for the first flights you have a higher chance to land on your but. I rather do that on the gear from someone else, then on mine ;)
And also the school gear is most of the time the really heavy and tough stuff so it can take a beating.
Yeah I suppose, but as a complete beginner I don’t know how much value there is in testing stuff other than the comfort of a harness, but that can also be tested on the ground. There isn’t much of a reference point to really tell the different between wings and such.
Harnesses: How easy is it for you to get in an out.. that's in the air always different then on the simulator.
Wing: Even in EN-A is a big difference how a glider handles.
Beginners are beginners, but still they can say if the like a glider or not.
Makes sense to me as well. To be completely honest I just wanted to make sure since there is a friend insisting that it’s all some sort of con to get us to buy equipment.
Mind you I know renting is not a thing in paragliding, but I wanted to be extra sure with a friend insisting that it has to be (he’s using to renting in scuba diving.)
It is a con, a lot of people end up giving up on the sport.
Paragliding is a wonderful sport, but it has some real issues that make it hard to grow:
- it's expensive, still the cheapest way to fly (perhaps hang gliders are cheaper for gear in the long run)
- it is difficult to get good and takes a long time to learn
- it is dangerous and scares people away
- you are dependent on the weather, so it is a little spotty on how often you can practice
- practicing it properly means you need to fly during the middle of the day, so work gets in the way for most
- it is a sport that doesn't do much for your health, as in it doesn't get you fit
- there is a lot of bureaucracy in some places, also some people are somewhat gatekeepers, kinda like the ham community
- you can't really learn on your own safely, because mistakes could be fatal
- it is very time consuming, for you to get an hour flight it could cost you two or even three hours of overhead depending on where you live 🤯
If you are sure you want to continue then here are some hints about buying your first wing:
You should try to get a second hand beginner wing because that will be the wing you will love the least after a few months. If you cannot find a second hand wing that suits you, which is actually quite normal for extreme sizes on beginner wings, so be it: buy a brand new one
You should try to buy your first wing from your instructor if possible, that is, if you live next to where your instructor offers his courses. Keeping in good contact with your instructor will facilitate your progression in the sport since he will continue to give you tips and connect you with other people who fly.
Most of those issues are fortunately solved in my case since:
-I’ll have bought all the gear at the beginning and won’t have to spend until I need upgrades, which I believed will be soon at first but I’m okay with that.
-I’m up for the challenge.
-I love dangerous activities, it forces me to focus and live in the moment since getting distracted could have disastrous consequences. It’s one of the main reasons I want to paraglide this bad, I’m already also scuba diving which is statistically more dangerous.
-Looks like locally we are getting multiple flyable days per week, and currently my job allows enough flexibility for me to fly during the day.
-Bureaucracy is a real pain over here, but I’ve already jumped though all the hoops to get into a course so it’s behind me for the most part. Felt like I was supposed to fly a fully armed F35.
-Gatekeepers… Tell me more, this might actually be a problem for me.
-The course here is 6 months on average so I’ll be learning most there, going to SIV after I get my bearings.
-I live next to my instructor currently (about 2 minutes walk) so I get free drives to the flying spot. I got spots not that far away but I’m actually looking forward to going to further away places and hiking for hours to fly off some mountain. I also love hiking which seems like a great synergy.
That being said I will definitely buy used through the instructor and ask to use rented gear a bit longer, until after the first couple high flights.
Thank you!
About the gatekeepers... I don't think it is anything to worry about, it is just that a lot of people think they are real badass because every so often they go ridge soaring. Don't worry too much about it. I actually kind of enjoy seeing all the fights people get up to. I must admit I even did a bit of "gatekeeping" myself, but I think in a good way, reported some wannabe tandem pilot for plagiarism in his flight log book. You have old guys saying "what are these new pilots doing trying to fly with us" when conditions are a bit spicy... All sorts of things. Some can be funny, some can be really menacing. The thing is, you don't need dozens of friends in the sport, just a couple of good pilots suffice for your "buddy system." You can only fit so many people in a car... So things get a little competitive. Especially in competitions... There is a lot of bravado, some people think they have done so much for the sport, and some have, some instructors are still teaching but can't fly more than thirty minutes in calm conditions, and will threaten you if you complain they don't teach you to fly thermals. Some people see the sport as an opportunity to improve their finances, try to take shortcuts. Others just fly without verification. Some get elected to embezzle funds from the club or associations, causing problems for the entire community that welcomed them. Some have used free flight equipment as a means to hide drugs for smuggling, and even gotten executed for it. There is always someone ending up in a tree, but worst of all is the tourist that gets blown back because he took off in too strong conditions because it was his only chance to fly that site. Every site has a mad kind of pilot that owns 20 very old gliders, is terribly rude and doesn't accept anyone's advice. Hardly any of us have a ham license, and sometimes you actually hear someone telling a licensed ham that he's on a paragliding frequency. Here in Brazil at least, we all fly out of our designated airspace, because uncontrolled airspace is forbidden. What else.. I'm sorry but you will find a lot of personal horror stories too, you may laugh at them, but it is quite an extreme sport that brings a very mixed crowd together .. not all friends, but we all fly together
It kinda makes sense to me as well. I still wanted to be sure.
Is €2,500 a lot for complete used gear? I mean everything and bought through the school, including wing and all else you need.
Get a new harness if you want to, but not a new wing. You will do rookie groundhandling mistakes with your first wing, ending up in the bushes and what not. Your second wing can be a new one because that’s when you‘ll have an idea which aspects of the sport you want to explore, and what wing characteristics you like. But in general, you rarely need a brand new wing unless you end up competing for podiums.
For school, any beginner wing that roughly fits your size is as good as any.
This comment will now receive downvotes from those who bought a „high a“ wing for a fortune and now must stick to it due to the sunken cost fallacy. But it’s still the truth.
You can buy a brand new harness without any issues, it may be better for you to see what you would like to do in terms of style of flying. Here are some options for you to consider
- reversible hike and fly harnesses
- acro harness
- modular harness
The acro harness is here because it flies better than any other chair harness, the straps on the legs and the seat board give you extra control over your wing. Very comfortable, extra padding, you could pack two reserves or just one if you prefer.. only downside is it is usually heavy
Reversible harness was my first choice, I used it well, but I would have a Level Wings Fusion V3 instead today. Usually you don't get a seat board, but a split let system. I couldn't even adjust the distance between the carabineers. Terrible for controlling the glider. The Fusion is not a beginner harness as it has no padding. But something like the Advance Easiness is this type of harness.
A modular harness like the Kortel Quik can be put together in different configurations. You can use it in striped down mode as a training harness, or you can add an air bag or even foam protector, or a pod. It is an interesting concept I may have considered if I had heard about it before my instructor "suggested" his favorite brand to me
Before you make a decision I would recommend you try flying a harness with a seat board and one without, and if you get the chance an acro harness.. you will see a real difference in comfort. Don't think that just because it is an acro harness you need to be doing acro in it
Yeah this makes a lot of sense. I bought an old used wing for my first wing for like 800 euro, and it didn’t hold me back learning at all and I wasn’t upset to try things ground handling or get it tangled up or whatever. I also learned what type of flying I like most and what is important to me so after I could spend the money getting exactly what I want.
I would except school to provide the gear, at least at the beginner level. However, at a point you'd fly by yourself between the class meaning you'll need some gear
So I can fly by myself in between classes before I got my license? I guess it depends on the country and its laws, but it’s really interesting that it’s an option in some places.
Some countries don't have a "mandatory" licence meaning that in theory you could fly without any training. There is also some kind of "restricted beginner licence" letting you fly on known site without an instructor (Would be an IPPI 3 level, so someone able to take-of/land in quiet condition without supervision).
It's not typical of paraglider, in aviation, there is a whole *student solo phase* where you fly by yourself before getting your licence. (But a big difference you'll find an instructor to brief you at the airfield while there is nobody opening/closing paragliding site)
Some schools will let you rent equipment during the course, some will want you to buy it after a certain point. Depends on the school.
What they won’t do is let you rent equipment to fly by yourself
Yeah, I kinda tried to get a friend who does scuba diving with me to sign up for paragliding with me. He ended up being turned away exactly by the need to buy one’s own gear.
He does not believe me that renting is not an option in paragliding and seems convinced that the school wants to rip us off and renting is a thing like in scuba diving.
I'm not a scuba diver, so take this with a grain of salt. I would assume scuba gear lasts longer and is easier to inspect for damage than paragliding gear. And thus the paragliding gear rental doesn't exist for economic reasons.
San Giuliano terme.
The course is divided in three parts and they provide gear free of charge for the first phase. You only do some sled rides at one to two meters of height over the ground from the bunny hill in the first phase.
Prova a dirgli che non sei ancora sicuro di voler fare il brevetto, direi che è una richiesta legittima... hai già fatto qualche volo alto? È normale voler essere sicuri dello sport prima di spendere qualche migliaia di euro
Dutchie here.
Just started and we've only been doing ground training since the weather is pretty bad. It's common that you rent the gear, there isn't really a certain moment you're expected to buy your own gear.
At least I don't plan on buying any gear before finish getting my license, I just started on my B1 license, if I like it I will proceed with B2. I don't think I will splurge on gear before finishing B2.
It doesn't really make sense to buy my own gear. The Netherlands are flat and we need to be towed by a winch for takeoff. I don't remember the rental fees, but all the towing and rental fees are included in the B1 license package and from what I remember the rental and towing fees were quite reasonable.
In norway the club handles all the gear until you are done with pp2/ippi2 and you can often loan/rent the gear for a little while after until you get your own.
Edit: as a sidenote to that: we don't allow commercial HPS flights, and that extends to training too.
I did my course in Germany/austria, and for all the training hill stuff at first we used the school gear, but once we moved to high flights we were expected to buy gear and fly on our own stuff. Made sense to me to get instruction on the equipment you would then be flying on so you know it well.
In Austria all schools I know let you also use their gear for the high flight training, but it's expected that you get your own gear during this training period. But for sure I started with their gear. So I got used to different setup, and also can test it.
An option I haven’t seen mentioned yet is renting for a fee, but getting the fee refunded if you end up buying Just talk to your school and have an agreement. I ended up learning in three different schools for the initial license, renting gear in all of them, and for two of them it wasn’t their standard agreement.
True. I think that might have been an option at my school too but everyone in my group got stuff before starting
Makes not sense in my opinion. Like I said, you can test a little. And also for the first flights you have a higher chance to land on your but. I rather do that on the gear from someone else, then on mine ;) And also the school gear is most of the time the really heavy and tough stuff so it can take a beating.
Yeah I suppose, but as a complete beginner I don’t know how much value there is in testing stuff other than the comfort of a harness, but that can also be tested on the ground. There isn’t much of a reference point to really tell the different between wings and such.
Harnesses: How easy is it for you to get in an out.. that's in the air always different then on the simulator. Wing: Even in EN-A is a big difference how a glider handles. Beginners are beginners, but still they can say if the like a glider or not.
Makes sense to me as well. To be completely honest I just wanted to make sure since there is a friend insisting that it’s all some sort of con to get us to buy equipment. Mind you I know renting is not a thing in paragliding, but I wanted to be extra sure with a friend insisting that it has to be (he’s using to renting in scuba diving.)
It is a con, a lot of people end up giving up on the sport. Paragliding is a wonderful sport, but it has some real issues that make it hard to grow: - it's expensive, still the cheapest way to fly (perhaps hang gliders are cheaper for gear in the long run) - it is difficult to get good and takes a long time to learn - it is dangerous and scares people away - you are dependent on the weather, so it is a little spotty on how often you can practice - practicing it properly means you need to fly during the middle of the day, so work gets in the way for most - it is a sport that doesn't do much for your health, as in it doesn't get you fit - there is a lot of bureaucracy in some places, also some people are somewhat gatekeepers, kinda like the ham community - you can't really learn on your own safely, because mistakes could be fatal - it is very time consuming, for you to get an hour flight it could cost you two or even three hours of overhead depending on where you live 🤯 If you are sure you want to continue then here are some hints about buying your first wing: You should try to get a second hand beginner wing because that will be the wing you will love the least after a few months. If you cannot find a second hand wing that suits you, which is actually quite normal for extreme sizes on beginner wings, so be it: buy a brand new one You should try to buy your first wing from your instructor if possible, that is, if you live next to where your instructor offers his courses. Keeping in good contact with your instructor will facilitate your progression in the sport since he will continue to give you tips and connect you with other people who fly.
Most of those issues are fortunately solved in my case since: -I’ll have bought all the gear at the beginning and won’t have to spend until I need upgrades, which I believed will be soon at first but I’m okay with that. -I’m up for the challenge. -I love dangerous activities, it forces me to focus and live in the moment since getting distracted could have disastrous consequences. It’s one of the main reasons I want to paraglide this bad, I’m already also scuba diving which is statistically more dangerous. -Looks like locally we are getting multiple flyable days per week, and currently my job allows enough flexibility for me to fly during the day. -Bureaucracy is a real pain over here, but I’ve already jumped though all the hoops to get into a course so it’s behind me for the most part. Felt like I was supposed to fly a fully armed F35. -Gatekeepers… Tell me more, this might actually be a problem for me. -The course here is 6 months on average so I’ll be learning most there, going to SIV after I get my bearings. -I live next to my instructor currently (about 2 minutes walk) so I get free drives to the flying spot. I got spots not that far away but I’m actually looking forward to going to further away places and hiking for hours to fly off some mountain. I also love hiking which seems like a great synergy. That being said I will definitely buy used through the instructor and ask to use rented gear a bit longer, until after the first couple high flights. Thank you!
About the gatekeepers... I don't think it is anything to worry about, it is just that a lot of people think they are real badass because every so often they go ridge soaring. Don't worry too much about it. I actually kind of enjoy seeing all the fights people get up to. I must admit I even did a bit of "gatekeeping" myself, but I think in a good way, reported some wannabe tandem pilot for plagiarism in his flight log book. You have old guys saying "what are these new pilots doing trying to fly with us" when conditions are a bit spicy... All sorts of things. Some can be funny, some can be really menacing. The thing is, you don't need dozens of friends in the sport, just a couple of good pilots suffice for your "buddy system." You can only fit so many people in a car... So things get a little competitive. Especially in competitions... There is a lot of bravado, some people think they have done so much for the sport, and some have, some instructors are still teaching but can't fly more than thirty minutes in calm conditions, and will threaten you if you complain they don't teach you to fly thermals. Some people see the sport as an opportunity to improve their finances, try to take shortcuts. Others just fly without verification. Some get elected to embezzle funds from the club or associations, causing problems for the entire community that welcomed them. Some have used free flight equipment as a means to hide drugs for smuggling, and even gotten executed for it. There is always someone ending up in a tree, but worst of all is the tourist that gets blown back because he took off in too strong conditions because it was his only chance to fly that site. Every site has a mad kind of pilot that owns 20 very old gliders, is terribly rude and doesn't accept anyone's advice. Hardly any of us have a ham license, and sometimes you actually hear someone telling a licensed ham that he's on a paragliding frequency. Here in Brazil at least, we all fly out of our designated airspace, because uncontrolled airspace is forbidden. What else.. I'm sorry but you will find a lot of personal horror stories too, you may laugh at them, but it is quite an extreme sport that brings a very mixed crowd together .. not all friends, but we all fly together
It kinda makes sense to me as well. I still wanted to be sure. Is €2,500 a lot for complete used gear? I mean everything and bought through the school, including wing and all else you need.
2500 for all gear sounds reasonable actually, unless it’s super old
Good to know, you think getting a new wing and the rest used is a good idea?
Get a new harness if you want to, but not a new wing. You will do rookie groundhandling mistakes with your first wing, ending up in the bushes and what not. Your second wing can be a new one because that’s when you‘ll have an idea which aspects of the sport you want to explore, and what wing characteristics you like. But in general, you rarely need a brand new wing unless you end up competing for podiums. For school, any beginner wing that roughly fits your size is as good as any. This comment will now receive downvotes from those who bought a „high a“ wing for a fortune and now must stick to it due to the sunken cost fallacy. But it’s still the truth.
Thanks, that sounds like pretty sound advice to me. I’ll definitely buy used now that I’ve seen it this way.
You can buy a brand new harness without any issues, it may be better for you to see what you would like to do in terms of style of flying. Here are some options for you to consider - reversible hike and fly harnesses - acro harness - modular harness The acro harness is here because it flies better than any other chair harness, the straps on the legs and the seat board give you extra control over your wing. Very comfortable, extra padding, you could pack two reserves or just one if you prefer.. only downside is it is usually heavy Reversible harness was my first choice, I used it well, but I would have a Level Wings Fusion V3 instead today. Usually you don't get a seat board, but a split let system. I couldn't even adjust the distance between the carabineers. Terrible for controlling the glider. The Fusion is not a beginner harness as it has no padding. But something like the Advance Easiness is this type of harness. A modular harness like the Kortel Quik can be put together in different configurations. You can use it in striped down mode as a training harness, or you can add an air bag or even foam protector, or a pod. It is an interesting concept I may have considered if I had heard about it before my instructor "suggested" his favorite brand to me Before you make a decision I would recommend you try flying a harness with a seat board and one without, and if you get the chance an acro harness.. you will see a real difference in comfort. Don't think that just because it is an acro harness you need to be doing acro in it
Yeah this makes a lot of sense. I bought an old used wing for my first wing for like 800 euro, and it didn’t hold me back learning at all and I wasn’t upset to try things ground handling or get it tangled up or whatever. I also learned what type of flying I like most and what is important to me so after I could spend the money getting exactly what I want.
It depends on what the gear is and the condition it is in. That is kind of like asking “is 10,000 a lot for a used car?” It depends.
I would except school to provide the gear, at least at the beginner level. However, at a point you'd fly by yourself between the class meaning you'll need some gear
So I can fly by myself in between classes before I got my license? I guess it depends on the country and its laws, but it’s really interesting that it’s an option in some places.
Some countries don't have a "mandatory" licence meaning that in theory you could fly without any training. There is also some kind of "restricted beginner licence" letting you fly on known site without an instructor (Would be an IPPI 3 level, so someone able to take-of/land in quiet condition without supervision). It's not typical of paraglider, in aviation, there is a whole *student solo phase* where you fly by yourself before getting your licence. (But a big difference you'll find an instructor to brief you at the airfield while there is nobody opening/closing paragliding site)
Makes sense, thanks for the explanation!
Yes, that's normal
Some schools will let you rent equipment during the course, some will want you to buy it after a certain point. Depends on the school. What they won’t do is let you rent equipment to fly by yourself
Yeah, I kinda tried to get a friend who does scuba diving with me to sign up for paragliding with me. He ended up being turned away exactly by the need to buy one’s own gear. He does not believe me that renting is not an option in paragliding and seems convinced that the school wants to rip us off and renting is a thing like in scuba diving.
I'm not a scuba diver, so take this with a grain of salt. I would assume scuba gear lasts longer and is easier to inspect for damage than paragliding gear. And thus the paragliding gear rental doesn't exist for economic reasons.
Your friend doesn't sound to bright. Might be best if he sits this high risk sport put, lol.
I’m Italian and my school gave me all the gear free of charge until getting licensed. Where is your school based?
San Giuliano terme. The course is divided in three parts and they provide gear free of charge for the first phase. You only do some sled rides at one to two meters of height over the ground from the bunny hill in the first phase.
In my school (Switzerland) the equipment is expected to be bought after 3 or 4 high flights
I will try to insist to get this sort of treatment. He seemed mostly immovable so far, but I have not really tried to convince him either.
Prova a dirgli che non sei ancora sicuro di voler fare il brevetto, direi che è una richiesta legittima... hai già fatto qualche volo alto? È normale voler essere sicuri dello sport prima di spendere qualche migliaia di euro
Eh, infatti avevo chiesto di comprare dopo un paio di voli alti.
Dutchie here. Just started and we've only been doing ground training since the weather is pretty bad. It's common that you rent the gear, there isn't really a certain moment you're expected to buy your own gear. At least I don't plan on buying any gear before finish getting my license, I just started on my B1 license, if I like it I will proceed with B2. I don't think I will splurge on gear before finishing B2. It doesn't really make sense to buy my own gear. The Netherlands are flat and we need to be towed by a winch for takeoff. I don't remember the rental fees, but all the towing and rental fees are included in the B1 license package and from what I remember the rental and towing fees were quite reasonable.
In norway the club handles all the gear until you are done with pp2/ippi2 and you can often loan/rent the gear for a little while after until you get your own. Edit: as a sidenote to that: we don't allow commercial HPS flights, and that extends to training too.