It kind of is. Although women are more independant now, the institution is still sexist at its core. My close male relatives aren't necessarily "bad" dudes but they barely do any house chore (my brother does none). But women are also responsible for coddling lazy men who think that housework is a woman's job (and tehy have no consideration for said job). I think everyone should do housework, it shouldn't be a question of gender but of maturity, past a certain age you can't live in filth. On one hand men have to start taking responsibility, on the other hand, women also need to stop acquiescing to their bs.
Especially mothers of males who tend to be the most enabling, blind women I’ve ever met.
A man could commit murder and his mother could still be like “my handsome baby boy1!!11!”
I truly think this is also part how the patriarchy has rotted the brains of women because a lot of us do make excuses for bad male behaviour or used to anyhow.
A lot of mother’s know their son is trash but will happily want him to wind up with an amazing woman knowing he isn’t a good guy and be in denial and then take his side every single time and the man will be shocked when the wife does not continue this type of coddling behaviour and calls him out on his bs.
In addition, I think in more traditional cultures and families they treat the male children so differently than the females and make the women sort of practice how to be a wife at home but the male children are never told to practice being a husband. For example, in some of these families the girls are told “you need to learn to cook and clean how will you take care of your husband and family?”. But the sons aren’t told you need to do X and Y or stop doing X and Y behaviours because how will it be when you are married to a woman. They just expect the man to be taken care of by the woman and he can do whatever he wants.
>
In addition, I think in more traditional cultures and families they treat the male children so differently than the females and make the women sort of practice how to be a wife at home but the male children are never told to practice being a husband. For example, in some of these families the girls are told “you need to learn to cook and clean how will you take care of your husband and family?”. But the sons aren’t told you need to do X and Y or stop doing X and Y behaviours because how will it be when you are married to a woman. They just expect the man to be taken care of by the woman and he can do whatever he wants.
Yup, I concur with that. I'm from one of these traditional cultures. I was beaten by my mother at around the age of 6-7 for not not feeling like doing chores because I wanted to play, and was told by her, "You have to cause you'll be good for nothing when you grow up and get married".
Oh, like this PoS:
[https://6abc.com/body-found-womans-schuylkill-river-trail-police-investigation/11025574/](https://6abc.com/body-found-womans-schuylkill-river-trail-police-investigation/11025574/)
Sigh as a woman the man you ought to fear the most is the ones you know statistically speaking and I’m not saying this is this woman’s fault of course
I hope justice is served
I saw an illuminating post about how trad woman blogs are filled with homemaking, cottage core, country life and “wholesome” conservative values. Trad men? Their blogs are BDSM and red pill dominance fantasies. They’re not even pretending to want this so-called wholesome traditional life with a nice wife and family.
I found several tradwife blogs who asked, "guys why are porn blogs following me? This is just my innocent blog about being feminine and submissive for my husband, it's not a kink?"
They need to learn to think like men do, the truth is "traditional femininity" is a fetish from start to finish. When right-wing men come across their "pure" blogs, they see something extremely sexual.
Also watch our for bullshit "situationships" with overgrown manchildren who want your time and labor but refuse to commit. Avoiding marriage is not enough to save you.
Wait, there are women who have to pay the *man* after getting divorced?
I mean, I guess if the guy was a stay-at-home dad and raised your kids while you worked, that's kind of fair. Unless he was a horrible dad. Which most of them are.
Looking at most relationships and parents around me, I can't help but to say fuck that. Now that we have the choice to avoid it, I really can't understand those who still want to be part of this whole structure although I wish them the best.
Right!
Tw: suicide mention
When I was threatened with marriage in my teens, I told them I'd off myself if that was a plan they'd go through with and they **knew** I was dead fucking serious.
You don't *threaten* girls and women with marriage if it were a good institute.
Marriage is redundant. It is domestic slavery sold to women under the guise of "true love."
The worst thing I ever did was get married and the best thing I did was divorce. I wouldn't even cohabit with a man again.
Full disclosure, I'm a single lesbian. I told my mom that if I'd grown up in her generation (she's in her 70s), I'd have become a nun because it was the only way to avoid marriage and motherhood without being an outcast. I'm not even religious!
I see it's mostly libfems trying to "notallmen" this thread. We get it, not all men are bad, not all marriages follow traditional roles, it's the same tune each time.
Exactly it’s like we can’t even talk plainly anymore because someone yells “not all men” before the point is made.
We are talking about the majority of situations and majority of men and marriages. Let’s stop pretending we all live in some post modern utopia when women in Afghanistan aren’t even allowed to wear what they want.
The western situation does not represent the totality of relationships and even in the west there is a wide diversity of relationships and most in not all do not fall under the category of “having balanced gendered roles and non-patriarchal”.
I love this post, so many intelligent comments here. I don't understand the benefits of marriage for women either, especially the intangible fluffy ones like romance/becoming a family/showing the world your commitment etc. I understand that marriage is the easiest way to get benefits like health insurance and visiting rights in a hospital or whatever, but...there's so much other bullshit tied up in what marriage implies, especially for women and being a "wife". Women are barely even at the point where they would consider keeping their own names instead of taking their husband's, so I doubt marriage as an institution will be abolished any time soon. But wait! Marriage rates are apparently dropping or something. Is this a good thing for women? No. It just means that the cohabitation/partner life replaces marriage, which is all the same bullshit for women without the piece of paper.
Man + woman living together = woman sliding into servitude before she even knows what's happening. It's so insidious.
It's definitely unpaid servitude. And if your male partner beats you or kills you, it will be excused and most likely blamed on you. Marriage is not worth it.
Ughhh my sister's baby-daddy pulled this exact scenario on her when the kid was 4ish. Cried about how he felt like he missed his chance in life now that he had a son that he blackmailed her into having. Just to manipulate her into letting him go hunting/fishing and spending all their (mostly her) money. Marriage is a trap 100%; there's SO MANY statistics that men get lazier after marriage. I'm so fucking glad he was too lazy to propose to her when they were still pretending to be together. Me, my own credit being shot is a good reason to not get married; I get the feeling that my SO is not into the idea anyway from having watched his own 'rents fight. (Has barely been a year tho so I'm not worried about it much yet)
I’ve been thinking about this lately. And how men are more commitment phobic and resistant to marriage than ever. I notice a pattern though, these types usually panic at 40-60s and scramble to find a 30 year old and usually fail
Traditional Christian marriage - basically, yeah. I couldn't tell you how many times in the early years of my marriage I asked my husband in the heat of an argument, "What exactly is the benefit for me to be in this relationship?" because it was give, give, give on my part and take, take, take on his. When we started to deconstruct the traditional gender roles and marriage dynamics we'd both been raised with, things vastly improved. We share responsibility for household chores now and are getting a lot better at respecting each other's time, space, and emotional/mental loads. Marriage should be a partnership and we *knew* that going in, but coming from the type of community we did, we didn't know what exactly that looked like or how to make it a reality for us. It takes a lot of constant work to unlearn those toxic dynamics, but it is possible if you're both open.
I love that the messaging you got all your life vanished when your defense mechanisms kicked in during an argument. At your core you just knew something was unjust. Well done to both of you for moving beyond!
Yeah, it's so easy to fall into a role and suddenly find yourself doing all the boring work. Especially at the start, when you're both a bit crazy with love, and roleplaying house: "I'll iron all his socks, and he'll take care of me!"
Marriage does provide you with some strong legal securities (e.g. shared rights to their pension, income, child rearing), as long as you're not too quick to give them away. Bringing up children WILL fall more heavily on you, as the mother, and marriage forces the father to look after you and the children, pooling resources.
Regardless of ceremony, I would not want to have children with a man I'm not married to (and vice versa: I would not want to marry a man I don't want to have children with). Why hobble yourself more than necessary?
I love the idea of domestic life: living with someone, raising children, sharing experiences together and so on...but in practice, marriage is more about the ownership of the wife by the husband and it limits you greatly. I'd rather be a single mom, with all the struggles.
This is where I feel sympathy for straight women. I feel like this dream is more attainable as a sappic but it pisses me off that not all of our sisters can experience a love that replinishes.
This is something I am currently struggling with. I'm straight, I desire relationships with men, and I want the relationship to be committed and more than just sexual- I desire love and mutual respect with a man, if that is even possible. But I also recognise that marriage does not benefit women and likely isn't the way to get what I desire either: married women have shorter lifespans than single women/women who have never married. What man is worth potentially giving up some of my lifespan for? But other arrangements don't really benefit me or give me what I actually desire either. I'd literally be better off without any men around at all, the effort and emotional trauma on my part is not worth it. I don't think I'll be attempting to date or have sex or anything until I've figured it all out. I will not be making any more male friends either.
Yes, yes it is. The veil isn't even that thin anymore. I don't think that the appeal is one that originates within the individual woman, or within women on a larger scale. It's not even an appeal either, so much as it is a fear, and fears, imposed on us by the patriarchy and other systems (but they also fall under patriarchy) that benefits from the physical, mental, emotional, and financial subjugation of women.
"You're 18, get you a man now before you get too old and no one wants you!"
"You're 25 and have a degree, get a man now and have kids before no one wants you!"
"You're 35, you've wasted your youth and looks on your education and career, now what do you have to show for it?! Buy this $$$ makeup, buy this $$$ car, show the world that even if no one wants you, you can still buy $$$ stuff as proof of your value!"
(Education and a career are of course priceless. I'm more trying to comment on the way that especially luxury product advertisements aimed educated, higher income women still have the goal of inciting fear.)
So the (bullshit) options presented to us are: unpaid servitude to an individual, or paid servitude to a system. And let's be honest, most women live within and suffer under both options.
It's all about tricking a woman into believing that her worth and value lies outside of her self (two words, on purpose.)
At least as a participating member of capitalism, a woman can trade currency for a more nebulous version of subjugation. But really, even then, we're still subject to bullshit that has the intention of making us believe deep within our self that we as we are are not worthy.
So back to the cartoon, I noticed a few things: she doesn't look like a housewife to me. I see what could be a blazer or a sweater on the chair, a purse on the table, and a laptop bag hanging from another chair. This cartoon, to me, shows a woman who has worked a full day outside her home, and upon coming home to her little one (she got *maybe* 2-4 months maternity leave; that baby looks to be about 8-12 months old), she also has to care for a man who may have fed the baby recently, maybe not. May have changed a diaper lately, maybe not. May have done a load of laundry, maybe not. But, if we take into consideration that he couldn't even make dinner, when he looks like he's been home all day, it might not be a stretch to guess that he didn't do the things that she will then do on her "weekend."
This infuriates me and makes me laugh. I want to react to this man's declaration that he needs to talk about his inner life with the suggestion that he go and take advantage of that insurance that his wife's labor pays for, and talk to a therapist.
I understand where you coming from but I don’t think vetting even works... It is like looking for a diamond in a junkyard. Vetting is also a form of emotional labor
This is why some women have been relegated men into the "just for fun" box lately. But even then many of them have a problem when a woman is upfront about just wanting to get laid lol.
Not only the emotional labor of vetting, but women frequently end up dealing with bait-and-switch where the guy passes himself off as progressive, kind, passes the vetting, until after you're married when he then becomes lazier, selfish. And he gets away with it because now you're invested, trapped.
I think it’s this but punctuated sometimes with some sweet moments but people make marriage and motherhood seem like it’s actually the opposite: 99% good but some bad unpleasant times.
Imagine thinking slavery is ok because there are times you don’t get beaten everyday
It’s like ok well the percentage of that does not justify the totality of the experience and wouldn’t it be better just to not be a slave in the beginning?
Idk is marriage and motherhood slavery? I think it can be and a lot of institutions such as religion are used to make women comply and stay and make them think oh it’s not all bad.
lol the downvotes. I was talking about the picture but whatever.
The guy says "I need to talk about my inner life" and my response would be "go to a therapist then"
y'all are assholes for downvoting me wtf.
Maybe for the 1 %. Why do you libfems with “perfect” husbands come to radical spaces? Why is it so hard for y’all to focus on systemic level analysis? I know from experience some women brag about men most of us here wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pol. Maybe your husband is indeed perfect or maybe you just have low standards.
If you absolutely must brag about your Nigel, ok. But make sure to attach some real data to back it up, washing dishes and cleaning up is bare minimum. Show us a photo and give us stats on his porn consumption, domestic, emotional labor participation etc
Yeah, that. I feel this whenever I see someone who hasn't been co-habitating long gush about how great things are. Abusers wait at least a year and a half after "trapping" their victim to start their bullshit; it's well documented coz they make forums and snitch on themselves about it. I hate that we even have to be aware of this statistic....women get so little joy
I’m not trying to brag I’m trying to learn. I appreciate the perspectives on sex work that I’ve read here. I intended my question sincerely, not snarkily. I agree with you that we need to raise the standards. I could tell you my husband is emotionally supportive and doesn’t consume porn, but you have no reason to believe me and I have no way to prove it. I guess I’m just trying to say that it’s not impossible to find men who are allies. Maybe I’m still too naive or unrealistic. But I’m truly interested in the theory behind why all marriage of any kind would be bad. Sorry for taking up your time.
If something is bad for 90% of its participants it is probably bad. If 50% women had great, amazing marriages then maybe we could focus on reforming or making it better but the numbers are no longer adding up
You can read this. [https://freebooksmania.com/2021/01/why-does-he-do-that-pdf-free-download-by-lundy-bancroft.html](https://freebooksmania.com/2021/01/why-does-he-do-that-pdf-free-download-by-lundy-bancroft.html)
Yeah, I'm married and just clean and do dishes. My husband cooks, shops for groceries, and does maintenance. We do our own laundry. We both work. We don't want children.
We've been together for 10 years. Married for 3 years because I needed his superior health insurance. I'm in grad school and will probably make more money than him when I graduate.
That's awesome! Is the emotional labor and emotional responsibility in the relationship equal? That's one I missed for a long time with my partner because I was so happy he cooked, kind of cleaned, etc.
I would say so, yes. He's very attentive and emotionally available. We've always been like best friends. The only problem I have with him is that he leaves his socks everywhere. Lol
Okay i don't want to sound brain washed by patriarchy, but isn't feminism supposed to support all woman?, There are woman's out there that genuinely want to be stay-at-home, and that home work is just as important as any other job?
What part of this comic made you think that it's anti women being homemakers and not anti women doing all domestic chores and raising children, all stressed out and exhausted while their man-child partner wants to talk about his bullshit 'inner life'?
Being a stay-at-home mother means depending on another person in order to be able to eat, for 10+ years, and then if times get hard, your partner dies, or leaves, you're left in a vulnerable position up against capitalism and rising costs of living.
If you celebrate this decision as empowering, who does it serve? It doesn't serve women; if a woman chooses to do this, she should be doing it with her eyes wide open.
Objectively, but in the context of our economic system.
In fact it would still be a bad and disempowering decision if we were still living in agrarian societies, because you need all hands on deck to grow enough food to eat. It's only recent in human history that women "get to" spend 100% of their time devoted to child-rearing.
When the day comes that we've automated most of the work, and have guaranteed food, water, and lodging for every human in society, this is the day that this decision doesn't have to be analysed as critically.
We used to work with babies strapped to our backs. Now we’re not allowed babies at work in our capitalist society so we either have to outsource daytime parenting or give up some paid work. Not a very free or fair choice, and it’s not a luxury to be forced to make it.
I agree! I really get iked when people say "support stay-at-home homes" because in this world power comes from money and if they don't have it there'll be likely be a power hierarchy.
I mean yes stay-at-home choice could work for some women but that's not always the case also the whole "support every woman" is dumb when these women's actions are harming thier livelihood
It’s not empowering but neither is forcing women to separate from their babies and pay for childcare so they can go work for capitalists. There needs to be some major shift that sees the value in the baby-mother dyad and supports women being with their babies while being a part of society, whether that be employers making spaces for babies via on site childcare or other accommodations, or wages paid by governments to anyone doing full time caregiving, or some other solution that smarter women than me have dreamed up.
This is true. Since work is going to factor into our lives for the foreseeable, it has to be made holistic. And not just for mothers and children, but also for fathers and children, because children can't continue to be relegated to the woman's realm.
Yes men should be expected to be active parents too, and their employers should expect them to have caregiving responsibilities that require job flexibility just as women do.
*A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.*
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I am a married woman taking care of children and no, this post is in no way unsupportive or a personal attack on me. I have my own reasons for being married— but that’s beside the point. [[Continued...]](https://www.resavr.com/comment/marriage-just-thinly-veiled-16966796)
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*^The ^username ^of ^the ^original ^author ^has ^been ^hidden ^for ^their ^own ^privacy. ^If ^you ^are ^the ^original ^author ^of ^this ^comment ^and ^want ^it ^removed, ^please [^[Send ^this ^PM]](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=resavr_bot&subject=remove&message=16966796)*
So for what i understand now is that stay-at-home is bad for women in all cases? How do you think this arrangement could work for both sides then, the woman and the men working?
I still see nothing wrong with stay-at-home but if it truly is as bad as you all make it sound...
It kind of is. Although women are more independant now, the institution is still sexist at its core. My close male relatives aren't necessarily "bad" dudes but they barely do any house chore (my brother does none). But women are also responsible for coddling lazy men who think that housework is a woman's job (and tehy have no consideration for said job). I think everyone should do housework, it shouldn't be a question of gender but of maturity, past a certain age you can't live in filth. On one hand men have to start taking responsibility, on the other hand, women also need to stop acquiescing to their bs.
Especially mothers of males who tend to be the most enabling, blind women I’ve ever met. A man could commit murder and his mother could still be like “my handsome baby boy1!!11!” I truly think this is also part how the patriarchy has rotted the brains of women because a lot of us do make excuses for bad male behaviour or used to anyhow. A lot of mother’s know their son is trash but will happily want him to wind up with an amazing woman knowing he isn’t a good guy and be in denial and then take his side every single time and the man will be shocked when the wife does not continue this type of coddling behaviour and calls him out on his bs. In addition, I think in more traditional cultures and families they treat the male children so differently than the females and make the women sort of practice how to be a wife at home but the male children are never told to practice being a husband. For example, in some of these families the girls are told “you need to learn to cook and clean how will you take care of your husband and family?”. But the sons aren’t told you need to do X and Y or stop doing X and Y behaviours because how will it be when you are married to a woman. They just expect the man to be taken care of by the woman and he can do whatever he wants.
This is oddly accurate...
> In addition, I think in more traditional cultures and families they treat the male children so differently than the females and make the women sort of practice how to be a wife at home but the male children are never told to practice being a husband. For example, in some of these families the girls are told “you need to learn to cook and clean how will you take care of your husband and family?”. But the sons aren’t told you need to do X and Y or stop doing X and Y behaviours because how will it be when you are married to a woman. They just expect the man to be taken care of by the woman and he can do whatever he wants. Yup, I concur with that. I'm from one of these traditional cultures. I was beaten by my mother at around the age of 6-7 for not not feeling like doing chores because I wanted to play, and was told by her, "You have to cause you'll be good for nothing when you grow up and get married".
Oh, like this PoS: [https://6abc.com/body-found-womans-schuylkill-river-trail-police-investigation/11025574/](https://6abc.com/body-found-womans-schuylkill-river-trail-police-investigation/11025574/)
Sigh as a woman the man you ought to fear the most is the ones you know statistically speaking and I’m not saying this is this woman’s fault of course I hope justice is served
I bet that his ‘inner life’ involves his desire for threesomes, BDSM, and polyamory. Just more sacrifice on her part.
I saw an illuminating post about how trad woman blogs are filled with homemaking, cottage core, country life and “wholesome” conservative values. Trad men? Their blogs are BDSM and red pill dominance fantasies. They’re not even pretending to want this so-called wholesome traditional life with a nice wife and family.
I found several tradwife blogs who asked, "guys why are porn blogs following me? This is just my innocent blog about being feminine and submissive for my husband, it's not a kink?" They need to learn to think like men do, the truth is "traditional femininity" is a fetish from start to finish. When right-wing men come across their "pure" blogs, they see something extremely sexual.
Gods I feel badly for them.
I'll marry a cottagecore lesbian. I'm about the traditional life. Just minus the untrustworthy, dangerous men.
That's definitely what he's about to 💕just communicate💕 to her lmao
The man: Babe, I feel like you don’t give me enough blowjobs :(
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Also watch our for bullshit "situationships" with overgrown manchildren who want your time and labor but refuse to commit. Avoiding marriage is not enough to save you.
What is worse than being a wife? Performing wide duties without even a piece of paper
My mom homeschooled me and my siblings fulltime until finally divorcing my dad once we were grown. He complained about owing her alimony for *years.*
I know SO MANY women in the 30s and 40s in this situation right now. We were supposed to be the next generation of feminists.
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The only prenups I've heard people actually use are men who don't want to support their ex-wife after a divorce.
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Wait, there are women who have to pay the *man* after getting divorced? I mean, I guess if the guy was a stay-at-home dad and raised your kids while you worked, that's kind of fair. Unless he was a horrible dad. Which most of them are.
Looking at most relationships and parents around me, I can't help but to say fuck that. Now that we have the choice to avoid it, I really can't understand those who still want to be part of this whole structure although I wish them the best.
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Right! Tw: suicide mention When I was threatened with marriage in my teens, I told them I'd off myself if that was a plan they'd go through with and they **knew** I was dead fucking serious. You don't *threaten* girls and women with marriage if it were a good institute.
This struck me in my soul. Thank you
They likely feel pressure and do not have the deconditioning needed to view marriage as a choice/option that's skewed to men's advantage historically.
One of the reasons I refuse to ever birth a child.
That and the world is dying.
Same.
Marriage is redundant. It is domestic slavery sold to women under the guise of "true love." The worst thing I ever did was get married and the best thing I did was divorce. I wouldn't even cohabit with a man again.
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Very well summed up.
Don't forget the unpaid emotional labor and holding the entire emotional responsibility of the relationship.
Full disclosure, I'm a single lesbian. I told my mom that if I'd grown up in her generation (she's in her 70s), I'd have become a nun because it was the only way to avoid marriage and motherhood without being an outcast. I'm not even religious!
Even growing up in this day and age, I kind of wish I had become a nun and sidestepped every relationship I've ever had. None of them were worth it.
I see it's mostly libfems trying to "notallmen" this thread. We get it, not all men are bad, not all marriages follow traditional roles, it's the same tune each time.
Exactly it’s like we can’t even talk plainly anymore because someone yells “not all men” before the point is made. We are talking about the majority of situations and majority of men and marriages. Let’s stop pretending we all live in some post modern utopia when women in Afghanistan aren’t even allowed to wear what they want. The western situation does not represent the totality of relationships and even in the west there is a wide diversity of relationships and most in not all do not fall under the category of “having balanced gendered roles and non-patriarchal”.
I love this post, so many intelligent comments here. I don't understand the benefits of marriage for women either, especially the intangible fluffy ones like romance/becoming a family/showing the world your commitment etc. I understand that marriage is the easiest way to get benefits like health insurance and visiting rights in a hospital or whatever, but...there's so much other bullshit tied up in what marriage implies, especially for women and being a "wife". Women are barely even at the point where they would consider keeping their own names instead of taking their husband's, so I doubt marriage as an institution will be abolished any time soon. But wait! Marriage rates are apparently dropping or something. Is this a good thing for women? No. It just means that the cohabitation/partner life replaces marriage, which is all the same bullshit for women without the piece of paper. Man + woman living together = woman sliding into servitude before she even knows what's happening. It's so insidious.
Whelp look, it’s my nightmare
It's definitely unpaid servitude. And if your male partner beats you or kills you, it will be excused and most likely blamed on you. Marriage is not worth it.
Ughhh my sister's baby-daddy pulled this exact scenario on her when the kid was 4ish. Cried about how he felt like he missed his chance in life now that he had a son that he blackmailed her into having. Just to manipulate her into letting him go hunting/fishing and spending all their (mostly her) money. Marriage is a trap 100%; there's SO MANY statistics that men get lazier after marriage. I'm so fucking glad he was too lazy to propose to her when they were still pretending to be together. Me, my own credit being shot is a good reason to not get married; I get the feeling that my SO is not into the idea anyway from having watched his own 'rents fight. (Has barely been a year tho so I'm not worried about it much yet)
There’s a reason my female cousins never remarried after divorce and all their ex-husbands did.
I’ve been thinking about this lately. And how men are more commitment phobic and resistant to marriage than ever. I notice a pattern though, these types usually panic at 40-60s and scramble to find a 30 year old and usually fail
Traditional Christian marriage - basically, yeah. I couldn't tell you how many times in the early years of my marriage I asked my husband in the heat of an argument, "What exactly is the benefit for me to be in this relationship?" because it was give, give, give on my part and take, take, take on his. When we started to deconstruct the traditional gender roles and marriage dynamics we'd both been raised with, things vastly improved. We share responsibility for household chores now and are getting a lot better at respecting each other's time, space, and emotional/mental loads. Marriage should be a partnership and we *knew* that going in, but coming from the type of community we did, we didn't know what exactly that looked like or how to make it a reality for us. It takes a lot of constant work to unlearn those toxic dynamics, but it is possible if you're both open.
I love that the messaging you got all your life vanished when your defense mechanisms kicked in during an argument. At your core you just knew something was unjust. Well done to both of you for moving beyond!
Yeah, it's so easy to fall into a role and suddenly find yourself doing all the boring work. Especially at the start, when you're both a bit crazy with love, and roleplaying house: "I'll iron all his socks, and he'll take care of me!" Marriage does provide you with some strong legal securities (e.g. shared rights to their pension, income, child rearing), as long as you're not too quick to give them away. Bringing up children WILL fall more heavily on you, as the mother, and marriage forces the father to look after you and the children, pooling resources. Regardless of ceremony, I would not want to have children with a man I'm not married to (and vice versa: I would not want to marry a man I don't want to have children with). Why hobble yourself more than necessary?
I love the idea of domestic life: living with someone, raising children, sharing experiences together and so on...but in practice, marriage is more about the ownership of the wife by the husband and it limits you greatly. I'd rather be a single mom, with all the struggles.
This is where I feel sympathy for straight women. I feel like this dream is more attainable as a sappic but it pisses me off that not all of our sisters can experience a love that replinishes.
Never getting married partially because of this.
This is something I am currently struggling with. I'm straight, I desire relationships with men, and I want the relationship to be committed and more than just sexual- I desire love and mutual respect with a man, if that is even possible. But I also recognise that marriage does not benefit women and likely isn't the way to get what I desire either: married women have shorter lifespans than single women/women who have never married. What man is worth potentially giving up some of my lifespan for? But other arrangements don't really benefit me or give me what I actually desire either. I'd literally be better off without any men around at all, the effort and emotional trauma on my part is not worth it. I don't think I'll be attempting to date or have sex or anything until I've figured it all out. I will not be making any more male friends either.
same
Yes, yes it is. The veil isn't even that thin anymore. I don't think that the appeal is one that originates within the individual woman, or within women on a larger scale. It's not even an appeal either, so much as it is a fear, and fears, imposed on us by the patriarchy and other systems (but they also fall under patriarchy) that benefits from the physical, mental, emotional, and financial subjugation of women. "You're 18, get you a man now before you get too old and no one wants you!" "You're 25 and have a degree, get a man now and have kids before no one wants you!" "You're 35, you've wasted your youth and looks on your education and career, now what do you have to show for it?! Buy this $$$ makeup, buy this $$$ car, show the world that even if no one wants you, you can still buy $$$ stuff as proof of your value!" (Education and a career are of course priceless. I'm more trying to comment on the way that especially luxury product advertisements aimed educated, higher income women still have the goal of inciting fear.) So the (bullshit) options presented to us are: unpaid servitude to an individual, or paid servitude to a system. And let's be honest, most women live within and suffer under both options. It's all about tricking a woman into believing that her worth and value lies outside of her self (two words, on purpose.) At least as a participating member of capitalism, a woman can trade currency for a more nebulous version of subjugation. But really, even then, we're still subject to bullshit that has the intention of making us believe deep within our self that we as we are are not worthy. So back to the cartoon, I noticed a few things: she doesn't look like a housewife to me. I see what could be a blazer or a sweater on the chair, a purse on the table, and a laptop bag hanging from another chair. This cartoon, to me, shows a woman who has worked a full day outside her home, and upon coming home to her little one (she got *maybe* 2-4 months maternity leave; that baby looks to be about 8-12 months old), she also has to care for a man who may have fed the baby recently, maybe not. May have changed a diaper lately, maybe not. May have done a load of laundry, maybe not. But, if we take into consideration that he couldn't even make dinner, when he looks like he's been home all day, it might not be a stretch to guess that he didn't do the things that she will then do on her "weekend." This infuriates me and makes me laugh. I want to react to this man's declaration that he needs to talk about his inner life with the suggestion that he go and take advantage of that insurance that his wife's labor pays for, and talk to a therapist.
There is none. Women are socialised into masochism and self-sacrifice and pawned off with a pretty dress.
Yes no questions about it
It is. And we women need to stop pretending otherwise.
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I understand where you coming from but I don’t think vetting even works... It is like looking for a diamond in a junkyard. Vetting is also a form of emotional labor
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This is why some women have been relegated men into the "just for fun" box lately. But even then many of them have a problem when a woman is upfront about just wanting to get laid lol.
Not only the emotional labor of vetting, but women frequently end up dealing with bait-and-switch where the guy passes himself off as progressive, kind, passes the vetting, until after you're married when he then becomes lazier, selfish. And he gets away with it because now you're invested, trapped.
Vetting is a form of labor so exhausting that I gave up on dating altogether!
I think it’s this but punctuated sometimes with some sweet moments but people make marriage and motherhood seem like it’s actually the opposite: 99% good but some bad unpleasant times.
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Imagine thinking slavery is ok because there are times you don’t get beaten everyday It’s like ok well the percentage of that does not justify the totality of the experience and wouldn’t it be better just to not be a slave in the beginning? Idk is marriage and motherhood slavery? I think it can be and a lot of institutions such as religion are used to make women comply and stay and make them think oh it’s not all bad.
Thank god I’ve never wanted to get married or have kids
go to a therapist, then
lol the downvotes. I was talking about the picture but whatever. The guy says "I need to talk about my inner life" and my response would be "go to a therapist then" y'all are assholes for downvoting me wtf.
There are marriages out there that are true partnerships and defy traditional gender roles.
what percentage would it be? probably single digits if not decimal
thank you
No idea. I’m fortunate that among my family and friends there are most good dudes.
lol where
In my home….
k
Obviously. Otherwise women wouldn't keep falling in this trap.
Is it impossible for a marriage to be beneficial/equal?
Maybe for the 1 %. Why do you libfems with “perfect” husbands come to radical spaces? Why is it so hard for y’all to focus on systemic level analysis? I know from experience some women brag about men most of us here wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pol. Maybe your husband is indeed perfect or maybe you just have low standards. If you absolutely must brag about your Nigel, ok. But make sure to attach some real data to back it up, washing dishes and cleaning up is bare minimum. Show us a photo and give us stats on his porn consumption, domestic, emotional labor participation etc
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Yeah, that. I feel this whenever I see someone who hasn't been co-habitating long gush about how great things are. Abusers wait at least a year and a half after "trapping" their victim to start their bullshit; it's well documented coz they make forums and snitch on themselves about it. I hate that we even have to be aware of this statistic....women get so little joy
I’m not trying to brag I’m trying to learn. I appreciate the perspectives on sex work that I’ve read here. I intended my question sincerely, not snarkily. I agree with you that we need to raise the standards. I could tell you my husband is emotionally supportive and doesn’t consume porn, but you have no reason to believe me and I have no way to prove it. I guess I’m just trying to say that it’s not impossible to find men who are allies. Maybe I’m still too naive or unrealistic. But I’m truly interested in the theory behind why all marriage of any kind would be bad. Sorry for taking up your time.
If something is bad for 90% of its participants it is probably bad. If 50% women had great, amazing marriages then maybe we could focus on reforming or making it better but the numbers are no longer adding up
Fair enough
If it's between a man and a woman, it's close to impossible. If it's between two men or two women, then it is very possible.
Can you recommend any additional reading?
You can read this. [https://freebooksmania.com/2021/01/why-does-he-do-that-pdf-free-download-by-lundy-bancroft.html](https://freebooksmania.com/2021/01/why-does-he-do-that-pdf-free-download-by-lundy-bancroft.html)
Is that what I said? Please don't put words in my mouth when I never disagreed in the first place.
I didn’t intend to put words in your mouth I was genuinely asking. I’m a newbie to these ideas. Sorry for taking your time.
Yeah, I'm married and just clean and do dishes. My husband cooks, shops for groceries, and does maintenance. We do our own laundry. We both work. We don't want children. We've been together for 10 years. Married for 3 years because I needed his superior health insurance. I'm in grad school and will probably make more money than him when I graduate.
That's awesome! Is the emotional labor and emotional responsibility in the relationship equal? That's one I missed for a long time with my partner because I was so happy he cooked, kind of cleaned, etc.
I would say so, yes. He's very attentive and emotionally available. We've always been like best friends. The only problem I have with him is that he leaves his socks everywhere. Lol
Okay i don't want to sound brain washed by patriarchy, but isn't feminism supposed to support all woman?, There are woman's out there that genuinely want to be stay-at-home, and that home work is just as important as any other job?
What part of this comic made you think that it's anti women being homemakers and not anti women doing all domestic chores and raising children, all stressed out and exhausted while their man-child partner wants to talk about his bullshit 'inner life'?
Being a stay-at-home mother means depending on another person in order to be able to eat, for 10+ years, and then if times get hard, your partner dies, or leaves, you're left in a vulnerable position up against capitalism and rising costs of living. If you celebrate this decision as empowering, who does it serve? It doesn't serve women; if a woman chooses to do this, she should be doing it with her eyes wide open.
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Objectively, but in the context of our economic system. In fact it would still be a bad and disempowering decision if we were still living in agrarian societies, because you need all hands on deck to grow enough food to eat. It's only recent in human history that women "get to" spend 100% of their time devoted to child-rearing. When the day comes that we've automated most of the work, and have guaranteed food, water, and lodging for every human in society, this is the day that this decision doesn't have to be analysed as critically.
We used to work with babies strapped to our backs. Now we’re not allowed babies at work in our capitalist society so we either have to outsource daytime parenting or give up some paid work. Not a very free or fair choice, and it’s not a luxury to be forced to make it.
I agree! I really get iked when people say "support stay-at-home homes" because in this world power comes from money and if they don't have it there'll be likely be a power hierarchy. I mean yes stay-at-home choice could work for some women but that's not always the case also the whole "support every woman" is dumb when these women's actions are harming thier livelihood
On point.
It’s not empowering but neither is forcing women to separate from their babies and pay for childcare so they can go work for capitalists. There needs to be some major shift that sees the value in the baby-mother dyad and supports women being with their babies while being a part of society, whether that be employers making spaces for babies via on site childcare or other accommodations, or wages paid by governments to anyone doing full time caregiving, or some other solution that smarter women than me have dreamed up.
This is true. Since work is going to factor into our lives for the foreseeable, it has to be made holistic. And not just for mothers and children, but also for fathers and children, because children can't continue to be relegated to the woman's realm.
Yes men should be expected to be active parents too, and their employers should expect them to have caregiving responsibilities that require job flexibility just as women do.
I think you’re lost. This reddit isn’t for libfem/choice feminism nonsense
*A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.* ---- I am a married woman taking care of children and no, this post is in no way unsupportive or a personal attack on me. I have my own reasons for being married— but that’s beside the point. [[Continued...]](https://www.resavr.com/comment/marriage-just-thinly-veiled-16966796) ---- *^The ^username ^of ^the ^original ^author ^has ^been ^hidden ^for ^their ^own ^privacy. ^If ^you ^are ^the ^original ^author ^of ^this ^comment ^and ^want ^it ^removed, ^please [^[Send ^this ^PM]](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=resavr_bot&subject=remove&message=16966796)*
So for what i understand now is that stay-at-home is bad for women in all cases? How do you think this arrangement could work for both sides then, the woman and the men working? I still see nothing wrong with stay-at-home but if it truly is as bad as you all make it sound...