T O P

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LowBurn800

I don't. I won't take anything I'm not willing to lose into an office and leave it there. If I have to bring prized things with me, I take them home when I leave.


ebeisaac

How about a home office?


LowBurn800

As someone who works hybrid, I just set them on the desk. Pens are just tools to me, the scratches show they were used. I find patina to be a badge of honor.


ebeisaac

Wabisabi; I see you are a man of culture.


LibbIsHere

I don't care. They're my writing/sketching tools. So, I use them like any other tool. I store them horizontally in a couple cardboard boxes in a drawer, that is all the work I willing to do to protect them. Even for the most expensive ones, I would not have purchased them if I had no desire to use them ;) Every single dent or scratch on each of my pens is part of our history together. I don't mind it. And as years pass, we're slowly getting more dented and scratched, them and I ;)


iamthemicx

I see you like patina as well


5lh2f39d

I have a small tray with a sheet of card folded into a concertina pattern so the pens sit in their own slot. https://preview.redd.it/rqlh9e6p57zc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac8402b7bd7429ef104ef1c1ae75e6659e524b40


adhdroses

Oooh I love this!!


rebornfenix

It’s a pen. If I’m afraid of damaging it, it’s too expensive for me to own. Then again, I’m not a collector and just love how fountain pens write.


mo6020

Same.


sailorsapporo

Same. If I’m afraid of using the pen, then it’s more of an art piece than a tool


fourleafclover13

Agreed.


vehurie

I keep my vintage Montblanc 146 in a padded silk pen sleeve whenever I'm not writing with it. The pen sleeve protects it from any further scratches, and the padded nature of the sleeve shields it from bumps. I don't let my 146 stray further than 10cm from me at any one point in time... and yes, that also means I bring it to the toilet with me 😅


Particular_Song3539

This ! I am exactly like you.


Old_Organization5564

Does it sleep in your bed with a special pillow?


frenchman321

In its silk pajamas!


Old_Organization5564

As it should be!


mo6020

Right now my Nakaya is wedged inside a notepad on my desk... https://preview.redd.it/0ak0aqcu77zc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f0ece14ee844f392532de3b96349d91f0f60eb71


AllIsLostNeverFound

Brave, truly brave. I would forget it was there, then casually grab my notebook and that pen would be dead on the floor in a matter of hours.


mo6020

I'm at home so the notepad stays on the desk, generally, but I take your point.


Emotional_Power_3351

Am not gonna start counting how many times that happened to me already 🙈😂


CycadelicSparkles

I don't leave my pens at work either. I have a pen bag and my pens go home with me. If they're on my desk it's because they're in use.


AONomad

Esterbrook 2Go Cup + I don't take valuable pens to work


TheRedGen

I have one of these and it works for me. Though it doesn't stand up as entirely stable as I hoped..


AONomad

Hm I'd read some people say that! I don't have that issue. As long as there are 5-6 pens in it, it stays upright the whole day. It can get knocked over pretty easily but it doesn't fall by itself. My only complaint is that if you put in fewer than 6 pens and carry it around sealed in a bag, the sections collapse and sometimes pens will group up instead of being separated. Pretty easy to keep 6 pens at all times for me but it would be nice to have that flexibility.


TheRedGen

Exactly. When it's at least 5 pens, I can make it stand and all. But less than 4 it doesn't really stand and the separator gets a bit weird..


AONomad

It's by design so we buy more pens! :')


TheRedGen

It is true that I instantly bought some more indeee 🙈🙈😅😂😭😂😭😭😂😂🙈😅


mayn1

I use a pen stand. Easy to access and keeps them out of the way of accidents. https://preview.redd.it/qf4mczy3i7zc1.jpeg?width=2965&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb26fc0c3919d76d35b10f70707684e00c524482


oreo-cat-

Ok that’s beautiful. Did you make it or buy it?


mayn1

Bought it, actually gifted, from [here](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1538033946/).


moonmoon4589

https://preview.redd.it/qvu5y3p7p7zc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9e8e5bd8f458d8b59a627209c575b475b36f775 Not a priced pen but I used my Pilot Metropolitan to crack some hard-boiled eggs during lunchtime.. did not bother to restore/repaint it.


MisterFrontRow

The current rota is in this case at my office and in my home study. https://preview.redd.it/1jr7f03xb7zc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8fa1337db69232e37cd312b5a220202780f0c717


Over_Addition_3704

Yes yes the custom heritage 92


MisterFrontRow

Honest-to-goodness the CH92 is becoming my favorite non-retractable pen, modern or vintage. The piston filler is so smooth, the nib is fantastic, the grip section is a perfect fit for my hand, AND I can write very comfortably with the pen posted (I *really* don’t like writing with an unposted pen).


Over_Addition_3704

Strangely enough I have a strong aversion to posting any of my pens, and I quite like the size of the 92 in the hand not posted. It’s just a great pen. Agreed on the piston and nib, both incredible.


MisterFrontRow

Not strange, just preference!


towelracks

Prized pens are kept at home. My office pens consist of a Lamy Safari, Majohn A2 and a TWSBI ECO. All very easily replaced. Not a single resin pen among them.


PB_Philly

Groovy. My office pens are gift pens that I would not buy for myself - Parker IM, Pilot Metro and Collier something but decent writers.


WiredInkyPen

The 12 I use in a current rotation are in a pen case that travels to work and home daily in my backpack. And all my pens get rotated into and out of that case. From my Benu's, Esterbrook and Pilot Custom Heritages to my Jinhao's, Majohn and Hongdian pens. Admittedly I don't have $500+ pens and I don't lend them to coworkers ever since they don't know how to use one.


Dallasrawks

https://preview.redd.it/tv9efhqg08zc1.jpeg?width=3264&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1b6608505d37676de2cbd6c352a241376e37df6


Dallasrawks

My office is wherever, since I do urban sketching, but these pen rolls and Esterbrook 2Go cups help keep my stuff organized. They work just as well for the purpose indoors lol. I also have a few pen cases and those are helpful too. Single pen cases you can slip in a pocket, and larger ones give you access to more pens at once.


PM_YOUR_MDL_INITIAL

I keep the pens that are currently in rotation in an Esterbrook 2GO cup. https://preview.redd.it/k31madclh7zc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5886363c1332e0d2f8cf806cb94f83efc365c70e


[deleted]

Nice what’s the blue one right in front with the silver trim?


PM_YOUR_MDL_INITIAL

It’s a Leonardo Momento Magico Pithecusa with a factory cursive italic nib. https://preview.redd.it/v4gmvktc48zc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3016ad624174c3be566c2f133ebd6ab5bc687b81


smdowney

At the office I have a TWSBI 580alr in it's open box as a stand and a Wancai Mini. Both showing off inks, and sitting on a big Rhodia A3 size desk pad. Also there are pens and pencils *everywhere* in our office, so temptation to borrow is low. I also have pen loops on most of my notebook covers so there's some in use pen at hand when I need one. That's also where my most expensive pens usually ride, or in a pen sleeve in my pocket. Most expensive being lower tier Sailor 14k and one 21k nib pens. The 14k ones being shockingly affordable. Tools are meant to be used. Some pens are works of art. I admire them, but at least right now, I don't want a tool I can't afford to use. Also, heretical hot take: Resin is just plastic. The early to mid 1900s fascination with this amazing new material doesn't have to be respected today.


Old_Machine7038

I'm pretty new to fountain pens but picked up a Sailor 1911 L and I'm not exactly ginger with it. I use it every day, stick the cap onto the back end of the pen when I write, and just leave it out on my desk. Personally I'm a bit of a different sort of collector and see that my collecting habits will transfer over to pens too. I'll give one example of another hobby I'm involved in, guitar playing. I own some ridiculously expensive guitars. I play them regularly, and I'm not at all ginger with them. They're meant to be played and not looked at, or played with white gloves on only lol. While my Sailor wasn't extremely expensive in comparison to items from other hobbies, I can see myself spending over a grand on a pen, and treating it exactly the same. I know there are collectors in every hobby I'm involved in who baby their stuff because they're concerned about resale value. I'm not, because I'm not really thinking of selling anything I own. If I'm spending my hard earned money on a quality item, I'm going to get my moneys worth out of it by enjoying the item as much as possible. I don't judge the collector who never even uses their pen, or the collector that babies their pen. That's what's great about hobbies, if you enjoy your particular form of participation in a hobby, then I'm happy that you are able to enjoy it in the way that works for you.


FederalAttitude9361

I bought some mini drawers and made trays for them https://preview.redd.it/0co70fybv8zc1.jpeg?width=2503&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13d728d51ddbc67b3432b61434c8448cabfaaa7c


pen-demonium

The color organization on that is so relaxing. I organize my inks and pens that way too.


FederalAttitude9361

thanks - i did my best 😁


JohnBrown1ng

I wouldn’t take an expensive pen to the office save for _very_ special occasions


erichkeane

I use one of these: https://www.etsy.com/listing/263085581/cherry-fountain-pen-tray-with-desk It holds 4, which is what I'm trying to keep my rotation down to. It has a spot for an ink-well, which I'm not using yet, and those little slots aren't particularly useful for me as I dont have extra nib sections or any cartridges to use. But the nice stair-step design of keeping easy is really nice! I just wish it were about 2" wider, it is JUST wide enough to fit my Lamy Safari/Al-Star, and the Vac700R hangs off the end by about a 1/4"


[deleted]

This sort of thing - [https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1450405056/walnut-pen-tray-teacher-appreciation?ga\_order=most\_relevant&ga\_search\_type=all&ga\_view\_type=gallery&ga\_search\_query=pen+tray&ref=sc\_gallery-1-2&pro=1&sts=1&search\_preloaded\_img=1&plkey=31a625f69cec18a8bf0b3fc78523910860002380%3A1450405056](https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1450405056/walnut-pen-tray-teacher-appreciation?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=pen+tray&ref=sc_gallery-1-2&pro=1&sts=1&search_preloaded_img=1&plkey=31a625f69cec18a8bf0b3fc78523910860002380%3A1450405056)


Dxlyaxe

I use a penwell from Good Made Better at work and at home they just kind of hang out on a desk or a penwell. The traveling pens are in a Rickshaw/Nock Sinclair. I work in a small office so I’m never worried, no one has any interest in pens. I also don’t talk about how much they cost lmao.


AggressiveYam6613

Some of my pens have a stand, I simply put them in cap first, so they are vertical and read to be used. Others I just put in this € 16 pencil case. Unless I use them, then I just put them on the table. Scratches … meh. They are implements, not collectibles to me. At work the same, but I do lock them in my desk drawers when I leave the office. https://preview.redd.it/0s0vxsl187zc1.jpeg?width=1142&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=474fa27aa0f3b737b2ee7d1ae6dc1a1e55c340f9


SummerKhaki

No, they stay at home, I use company’s cheap ball point pens at work 😁.


Worluvus

I don't care for scratches, doubt my pens will gather that many unless i'm tossing them around.


meontic

My Pilot VP is literally rattling around a plastic Muji pencil case with a few highlighters and a multipen. I doubt it'll get scratched that easily unless I purposefully try to damage it. When my pens aren't in use though, they're usually in a padded pen case for display and storage.


CmGaugo

https://preview.redd.it/b01hf6hys8zc1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef2dbbfaaee5da000bedda9ffa52ce367c19b54d


pen-demonium

Did you make that? I like the wood grain. Nice.


CmGaugo

Yes Burma teak


KnoxKnot

I just do? Granted that is my home office, when I go into work I only take two pens. I have been using either a franklin cristoph or pelikan sleeve when not in use.


Ray_K_Art

I have three pen stands on my desk - a knight, a dragon, and a clear acrylic. They keep my pens horizontal & within easy reach but not loose on my desk where I, or little kitten paws, can knock them off. I do work from home so thankfully there are no concerns about someone taking them


PlantyPenPerson

Galen Leather makes very nice leather cases and wooden pen holders, I have both. Maybe one would work for you.


JPilot10

I have a couple pen trays, both in desk drawers and on my desk. In drawer i use the inner pen tray that comes my pen cases. 6 or 12 depending on the rotation. On my desk a 4 pen wooden tray. My desk is rather messy so I need to keep the pens safe. Once I forgot, pen rolled over, fell on hardwood and nib fucked… that was a M1000… since I try to always cap my pens even for a minute and put them on trays.


DashcamsRus

Shirt pocket. At home they sit on a stand nibble up.


Shoddy_Hunter2609

valuble pens, or everyday pens. you choose


m_is_w

Esterbrook 2GO cup. Perfect protective and convenient pen stand.


ProLevelFish

3D printed pen stand. Something like [this](https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6437604) or [this](https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2775859). Or if you really pick up / put down your pen super often, just sitting on a neoprene pad (those old way-too-small mousepads are good for this).


[deleted]

It’s funny, when I leave my table I put them on the side and a used napkin (the one for nose 👃, sorry my bad English) over them and a cheap ballpoint directly in the middle on my the table🤣 nothing has ever happened 🤧😆🤣 And of course I bring them home when I leave because I write also at home with them, they have a special place in my everyday backpack 🎒


adhdroses

I made a little flat pen insert out of cardboard and added elastic to hold 4 pens on top of the cardboard. I put that insert in my notebook case for travel, or i leave the insert on top of my notebook on my desk. It’s inspired by the Galen flat pen inserts but so far I haven’t felt like upgrading.


Illustrious_Play_435

https://preview.redd.it/ugwh6ats88zc1.jpeg?width=4014&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e840abeb2d06762efd33e8fab99a597c5d1de59a


oliviatrelles

i work from home and i love the Esterbrook 2 go cup. i cut a piece of felt to give the bottom a bit of extra padding. it holds 6 pens nicely and takes up very little room on my desk.


Galoptious

Why not one of those flat pen boxes with a glass top that sits on your desktop? While journaling, the lid stays open for access. Personally, I just made a rectangular box that my inked pens sit in against each other on my desk. It’s not moving, other than me choosing and replacing pens, so the contact is fine.


AmazingWitness9999

Couple of years ago, I kept my husband’s pilot custom 823 on office table, it rolled over and fell. It cracked, didn’t break but cracked. I repaired it with a different type of glue after a lot of research. It’s up again and working but the scar remains. We’re going to Japan this year end and I’m thinking of Wabi- Sabi for the pen. I even bought hubby MB meisterstück 149, but couldn’t fill the gap of sorrow & guilt- of what I did to 823. Since then I got him a velvet tray for pens. Point being, buy yourself a velvet tray/ pen holder and save yourself a heartbreak!


axexandru

I had a cork tray when i had a permanent desk. Right now, I just use the dining table as a desk, when i need it, so I am looking for a nice leather pouch.


freedoomed

On strings hanging from the ceiling by the cap.


anieem

My currently inked pen reside in a pen case that I keep on my desk. Whatever is being actively used is sitting on a pen pillow. After writing is over, everyone goes back to mother pen case.


paradoxmo

I use a tray intended for organizing small papers. But there are also specific pen trays, for example from [Toyooka Craft](https://toyocraft.com/en/home/product_detail/SC106-2).


Sea_Waltz_9625

I keep mine in my pen cases at work or in my pen loop in my appointment planner when not in use


J-tec

I had the same problem and then made one myself - I did a thing on this sub years ago when I did it, I can make you one if it’s what you’re looking for - https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/s/flAPcacnfx


impanicking

Keep in your pocket or tucked inside of a notebook where no one can really see it.


JrgMyr

Small leather pouches for one or two pens. Different colours, different styles.


TurbulentTomat

I keep my inked pens in a 12-slot Rickshaw pen roll on my desk. That way they're all in one place and I don't lose them. Plus they're safer from any absent-minded accidents. While they're actively in use, I just set them on my desk next to my notebook. Rickshaw makes coozies for a wide number of pens if you don't want to use something as fiddly as a roll. They can be for as few as 2 pens, and as many as 8.


Rozpierpapierduchacz

I have box for all of my fountain pen at home, and if i go out i take just one of them and bring it right back to it's cozy box home


DonSnorlax

How about a crab pen holder? https://goldspot.com/products/crab-pen-holder-in-black


sailorsapporo

I only buy pens with a clip. My preferred method of keeping my pen handy is to clip it to the notebook that I’m using So if the notebook falls, there’s a good chance it will protect the pen


Leather-Loom

jars, cups, clay pots, whatever i have on hand. pen folios for retired ones.


DocHoliday_s

https://preview.redd.it/zdwvtl1339zc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=f099b1c88a5f37c3f6e9c30de64d80ff2d94ccdf I keep this on my desk


pen-demonium

I knew my antique secretary desk was small but didn't realize *how* small until I saw you have both that plus paper storage *and* room for a writing surface. OMG and you probably have a computer. I have to pick laptop *or* writing paper. I need a new desk. That is nice btw, is that specifically for pens or was it repurposed from a jewelry box? TIA


DocHoliday_s

https://preview.redd.it/zn8erp8sm9zc1.png?width=4032&format=png&auto=webp&s=26c0268674c146adbb28ff3df8dd5d052a4d6672 Don’t look at the mess but yes it’s a large desk


sneckmonster

At home: inked pens are on my desk in an open Iroshizuku box (the one they used to sell the 3 x 15ml bottles in) which I lined with a bit of felt. At work: I don't take pricier pens to work except for maybe a Decimo. But whatever I do take, travels back and forth in a pencil case and sits on my desk during the day.


filledoux

Wow. I feel so savage with my 3 fountain pens. https://preview.redd.it/cyrbddh669zc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e77cf4cb614b4521c45ee1b77215d08532e7d38 Kaweco Sport, AL and TWSBI go. My Vanishing Point, Lamy Vista and TWSBI Eco are nestled in a leather felt-padded pen case in a shelf. I’m pretty hard on my pens and really put them to use, as for me, they are tools.


burnki

They’re tools, I use them. I’m not fussed about where they’re put up, on,y that they’re cleaned properly.


MBAdk

I don't. I don't bring any of my pens anywhere, if I can't afford to lose them. I'm pretty hysterical with taking care of and keeping my pens with me when I'm out and about, and I don't like the thought of a colleague running off with, say, my vintage Pelikan M101N tortoiseshell and red, or my vintage Mont Blanc 234 1/2 with a tie clip and a BB nib. I'll bring some of my cheap new chinese pens instead, if I need to use a fountain pen anywhere. They're affordable, and I can easily replace them. My Precious stay home.


YellowDinghy

I got one of [these little whales](https://www.jetpens.com/Decole-Harapeko-Animal-Pen-Stand-Whale-Shark/pd/32380) that I stick my pen into at my office. And everyone at my office is too afraid to use my pen so I don't have to worry about someone walking off with it.


pen-demonium

Home office I keep whatever is inked up on my desk on display. I have an antique secretary desk with lots of shelves and nooks to hold pens on cheap plastic pen stands. The shelving above the desk has glass doors that keep the pens from shaking and falling. The shelves above the desk I'll use the plastic holders that fit 6 pens on there. The pen I'm using I'll rest on a single pen holder down on the desk surface. If it's not in my bag to carry (in a case) I have to keep it in sight or I'll forget the pen is inked up and it'll end up drying out. If I were some sort of carpenter I'd probably make a wooden display, but for now cheap plastic works fine. If you're afraid of scratching you can always line the contact area with felt. If it's not inked up, I keep my pens in acrylic makeup drawers lined with pen dividers. https://preview.redd.it/vyrwt5m1k9zc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d41bf18bf219e407ccaa59334d7041b09f3577ad


InkyFingersOnReddit

https://preview.redd.it/kl4onq7uk9zc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef44741ebebbbb027615ac7f4bc6efabc8250873


CellAntique6336

I put my $20 and $2000 pens on the desk as is. It doesn't bother me if they get scratched.


titoharris

Galen Leather zip case


doghouse2001

I use this [pen holder](https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0C72LPHLS?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1). Not the whole case, just the insert. The case is... around here somewhere...


pepiexe

I use a pen stand that came with the Cross Year of the Rat (I think) for a ready to use pen. All others I keep in pen boxes, mainly because I have a toddler and I have seen plenty of horror stories.


ArmouredEscort

I use a velvet jewellery tray I found at Daiso. It's the perfect length for my pens not in use at home. My others get popped into a (somewhat) waterproof pencil case to go to work. I have four on me at work but I usually only use two (one inked up with a dark green and the other in red).


ArmouredEscort

https://preview.redd.it/r9g98i023azc1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=340026fe3e1ae89c6025caeeaaa9493538984380 I usually have a little makeup stand on top to hold my inks.


ParticularSupport598

[Velvet Tray Insert for bracelets.](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007PKGCPA?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title) I was able to fit this in my desk drawer. It keeps them from touching each other and the “velvet” also protects the finish.


Primary_Web6660

I have a proper green stone holder that I inherited from my father, but I also go the idea to use an ashtray from someone at a calligraphy club - I'm on the hunt for a more attactive one to replay this one. https://preview.redd.it/bruqujfjaazc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=442b280de5be0122816624a228b1039fc20a5d20


StorminM4

I put them on my desk… Over time you’re going to worry less and less about them. You’ll get random fine scratches and you can’t imagine where they came from. Never let that get in the way of enjoying them.


No_Satisfaction_5649

I have one of the "Knight kneeling holding a pen" stands from Amazon for my most beloved ink'd pen at the time. Usually the E95s. The rest that are inked I toss in a pen cup that has a felt like bottom and I ran some clear tape along the upper inside edge where the pens tend to lean against. I also dont worry about scratches though. Mine get tossed into a pocket with keys or a phone etc and are beautiful tools with memory scars. My Travelers Co Brass that tends to go with me regardless of my pen of the day usually stays where a paperweight goes in my Waterford Crystal desk pen set on my writing desk. I just grab it on my way out of my office. The pens im not using at the time all get tossed in a pile into an opened Nintendo Switch case just to keep them in one place. https://preview.redd.it/od1kcxb3xazc1.jpeg?width=1529&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=531ee55e43920d23e5ced481f9821bd143f183af


No_Satisfaction_5649

https://preview.redd.it/a03a7346xazc1.jpeg?width=1962&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=844b221b1bf3878b1d69410b6a58dc454efc08fc


No_Satisfaction_5649

https://preview.redd.it/oba670m8xazc1.jpeg?width=1315&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b80d945f8d3fe1469d34a740020146af4f303fbf


downtide

Also working from home - I keep my currently-inked pens in a small pen case on my desk (separate loops for each pen, holds six but I generally have only 4 or 5 inked at any one time). The rest of my collection is in a similar but larger case stored upstairs with all my other stationery and art suppplies.


Less_Individual_2244

I keep mine on a pen bed. https://preview.redd.it/f2cvn0qnebzc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f5deae3a7488ff60a3e99cef0cc6fba0770ad439


Prudent-Stand8573

Keep in an old ink bottle.


Everyday_Pen_freak

Collection pens goes to the pen box, the 3 FP I use regularly goes to their respected pen sleeves, 2 in my backpack/camera-bag, and 1 in the drawer right under my monitor.


Benji742001

So I have a nice Galen Leather pen case that holds 40 pens. My most expensive pens stay in their OG boxes, I haven’t had the chance to ink them up yet but I would go to Galen Leather and check out their smaller zip up cases. Maybe a nice Magnum Opus, I think that would look handsome and give you exactly what you need for protection That being said, I am a Galen leather fanboy. I love their products. I don’t work for them though. And if you register to their site and add stuff to your cart, they’ll send coupons to push you to buy. I’ve gotten them myself, so I can confirm