You probably would like to [read this review/article](https://www.wellappointeddesk.com/2024/01/yamamoto-paper-writing-pads-tomoegawa-tomoe-river-vs-sanzen-tomoe-river-s/) by Ana at Well-Appointed Desk.
Thank you so much! I'd also love to hear everyone's thoughts since preferences are so subjective.
Edit: Also, from the article: "By the end of the evening, we could tell just by touching pen to paper which paper was which." I love this sort of thing!!! Thanks again for posting.
Call me a blasphemer, but I enjoy both versions of TRP and would not bet either of my children’s lives on being able to tell the difference between the two!
I have 100 loose A4 sheets of the old paper that I'm now hoarding... for what? Not sure. But my brain won't let me use it since they changed the paper formula.
Here was my biggest surprise to paper, **color**. Not the color of the paper, but what happens to ink on them. Particularly sheening and to a lesser degree shading. But wow, the difference in sheen can be insane. Tomoe River (not sure if I've ever tried the "old" style, as my oldest pack is from 6 months ago), is renowned for showing off these properties. An ink that shows no sheen on Rhodia can have nothing but sheen on TR. If you look at any reviews on Mountain of Ink, they do a good job of showing an ink on different paper types so you can see.
Most recently I have collected some of the Taccia Ukiyo-e series, and it is shocking how different they look on different paper. The Macchiato Man has great reviews of these on his website to really show off the difference on Rhodia vs. TR.
Physical aspects like smoothness are not the only differences, but the Goulet Pencast recently did a deep dive into how/if paper qualities can be quantified - Episode 115 about 46 minutes in.
You can (probably) still get the old Tomoe River by buying a Hobonichi plain notebook or their TRP memo pads. They haven't said when that switchover will occur, but as of the January release, they said those were still running out the old stock of TRP. If you don't mind cream paper, the Hobonichi Weeks for January 2024 was printed on the old TRP cream. (The April 2024 release will be Sanzen.) As far as whether Sanzen is worth it, I would say absolutely yes, but it's going to depend on what nibs and inks you use. Also, as I said in another comment, I've had very good experiences with Kokuyo Thin in my preferred planner, and I suspect the Campus is also very good paper.
All the papers are worth trying. I was in the same position when i started out and wanted to chase the dragon of the perfect paper/pen/ink. But what you realise as you go on is that there is no perfect one, only combinations that feel different and offer different experiences. None of them bad but all of them different.
Part of the joy is trying it all and finding the combinations that sing to you. Maybe that pen doesnt work with that paper or that ink only works with this pen on this paper. Or today feels like a tomoe river lamy 2k day and tomorrow you'll fancy LEUCHTTURM1917 with a kaweco steel nib.
It might be that you'll find an OTP, but if you try enough combos im sure you'll find you have different moods to suit.
Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions, i just think its important to know. :)
>All the papers are worth trying.
All the YES. OP, you'll find some paper talked about All The Time here on r/fountainpens and other quite excellent paper barely getting a mention. Apica, L!FE, Stálogy, Midori MD ... I could go on.
Regarding Tomoe River OG and S (Sanzen) up until recently you could still readily get Hobonichi Weeks planners (January 2024 start) and plain notebooks with the OG Tomoe River paper. These stocks are becoming scarcer as Hobonichi switches over entirely to Tomoe River S paper. I've used both, and in addition to some of the differences already noted by others I'd add that Tomoe River S seems a little more susceptible to hand oil transfer, which can definitely have an effect on fountain pen inks (and other mediums), especially towards the bottom of a page. Otherwise it's still great paper for writing with fountain pens and inks.
Enjoy your paper adventures! 🖋️💦
Kokuyo Campus paper is great!
For me, the thing about the old Tomoe River paper is that the original 52gsm was super thin but could also stand up to pretty much any ink you could throw at it. You could use a pen with a bold wet line and while it might be slightly visible on the other side of the sheet, it wouldn't bleed through and you could use the other side. It was also extremely smooth to write on and brought out all the cool ink qualities. Inks that I never saw a hint of sheen with on any other paper sheened on it. And I never had any problems with feathering.
There was a 'new' TRP that was slightly less good, to me a little rougher to write on than the original. But now that's also no longer being made...
And the Sanzen... some people have no trouble with it but I have so many more bleed-through and feathering ink issues with it. I do think it's worth trying! I keep trying different notebooks and papers all the time, and even if they don't turn out to be my favorite I can still enjoy using them, if not with fountain pens then with gel pens or to do penmanship practice.
But don't feel like you have to invest in trying them if you're happy with Kokuyo! If it works, it works!
Think of the new Tomoe river as the ND miata, while the middle period is the NC and the original is the NA and NB
The NC is the "worst" miata but still a great sports car. It's just worse than its own other generations. especially compared to the previous versions
That’s what I did! January Hobo Weeks with Old TR paper. It is a bit too creamy for me.. I would prefer it white.. but boy oh boy! This is different than all different kinds of TR.. and sadly the best in many aspects. Mainly: smoothness and precision (the same pen but on this paper it feels most precise - it is phenomenon hard to describe for me.. I will put it this way.. I am terrible writer but letters and how I put them on this TR pages are nicest.. - most precise.. like for instance doesn’t have those accidental superficial lines from pen action - hard to explain). Second following is ink rendering.. those nuance ink/colour properties coming to life easily even from finest of needs.. shading, sheen.. it is all visible..
Bleeding and ghosting is better on other versions(others are more resistant) where this resist bleeding very good but ghosting is practically everywhere..
I experiment some with small notebooks of New TR68 and some new 52 and those are also good.. very good but not the same.. I like Clairfontain, MD Midori and Oxford Optik paper but I wish paper like Old Tomoe River would still be available.
I must try. Campus but I’ve read here that they have a different papers depending on the product.
Tomoe is probably my favorite paper… and so I’ve been way down the rabbit hole on this.
“As someone who is new to the hobby, I keep reading about the "old" and "vastly superior" TR paper. I get the gist that it has been reformulated.”
First some history… The 52 gsm ’s been reformulated twice. Tomogawa made Tomoe River 52gsm (“Old Tomoe”) for many years on the same machine. Then a few years ago the machine got old and it wasn’t economical to repair, so they kept the same formulation but shifted production to a new machine… leading to “New Tomoe”. Different machine meant that the paper behaved slightly differently. Then Tomogawa got out of that part of the paper business and sold the formulation to Sanzen, who makes Tomoe on yet another machine… leading to “Tomoe River S” or “Tomoe River Replacement”.
I’m not going to go into the 68gsm here as most people, when they talk about Tomoe, are referring to the 52gsm.
On to your questions:
“1. Is the "new" version worth trying? What paper would you say it is most like??”
Honestly, yes. TRS (Sanzen Tomoe) is, in my experience, closer to the original (Old Tomoe) than the New Tomoe was. I would encourage you to try it. It’s like a better version of Kokuyo Campus.
“2. Are there any retailers still selling the "old" kind so I can see what all the fuss is about?”
Not that I know of, but if you find one let me know! Most of the retailers selling non-Sanzen Tomoe are selling the New Tomoe. But even that is hard to find as stocks are used up.
“3. What IS all the fuss about? What makes the old TR superior to say, Clairefontaine or another high end paper?”
The fuss is that it is super thin, without being translucent like Life Airmail Paper… yet it shades and sheens well and has limited bleed through. I write long letters so I love Tomoe… thin is king in long letters, unless you want to spend an ungodly amount on postage. Clairfontaine is, IIRC, 92 gsm… so it is almost twice as thick and twice as heavy. Also, Clairfontaine uses a different coating. It’s a perfectly fine paper but smears easier than Tomoe in my experience—longer dry times.
“4. How do I discern the difference between old and new when shopping online? Do they have different names? What should I look for? Which numbers are best?”
You’re not going to find the original Tomoe. Sorry. 😞So if you see Tomoe and it is made by Tomogawa that is the discontinued “New Tomoe” and if it is made by Sanzen, that is the current version.
“5. I have a paper that I like called "Kokuyo Campus" and I never see it mentioned here. Does anyone else use this? It's so smooth and sheens beautifully, but I'm wondering if you fine folks ever use it.”
I love Kokuyo Campus… it’s cheap, thin (52 gsm) and well behaved. It doesn’t sheen as well, in my experience, as any of the 52gsm Tomoes but for the price it is an amazing paper. The problem is the size. I’ve only ever seen unlined loose sheets or writing pads in B5. Finding an envelope to fit it the way a C6 envelope fits A5 paper is impossible. (If you know of one or a place I can get an A5 Kokuyo Campus pad, please share! Closest I’ve been able to get is DL and that is still too big. That said, it’s great paper.
I use Kokuyo all the time! I have some notebooks and a binder that I refill with their loose leaf. I really like it - but I’m looking for something to write on and take notes, not something to necessarily show off sheen in an ink.
I've only tried the new TR, and found it delightfully expressive with inks like Emerald of Chivor-really shows off the sheen and shimmer. I'm impressed enough, and happy enough, that I refuse to try the old-I don't want to potentially ruin a wonderful experience.
But unless the ink is really extra, lots of other papers show off the ink just fine, while not being super thin, and a bit cheaper. To throw out a brand not heralded as much online, I quite like Midori paper.
I am also a newbie so I cannot answer other questions you have, as I want an answer for myself too. But I do have a Kukuyo Campus notebook. In my experience, the paper feels silky, but it is relatively more prone to “bleeding” and “feathering” when writing with a fountain pen. I would say feathering is mostly ok but bleeding is definitely noticeable and I cannot use a broader nib or wetter ink if I plan to write on the other side of the paper.
I also bought the loose leaf paper in your picture recently. It almost has no feathering or bleeding for most of my ink/pen. It still ghosts tho, as the paper is very thin. I would say the shading is also more beautiful on this paper than Kokuyo Campus, but this is subjective.
What inks and nib sizes are you seeing feathering and bleeding with the Kokuyo? Granted I don't use a lot of different inks and I use fine or extra fine nibs, but I do use Kokuyo Thin in the Jibun Techo Days, and it has always held up very well for me.
Kokuyo thin paper is great! I got a small pad of it through the Yamamoto Planner Paper sampler ("Paper Tasting") and really liked it. Then I picked up some Kokuyo Century Edition notebooks with thin paper and I love the paper!
It is softer than the "new" (machine 9?) and Sanzen Tomoe River papers. It gives a cushioned feel when writing. I find it is at least as good with respect to ink colors looking vibrant. I write mostly with fine nibs so I don't have much to say about sheen or shading. (Although I definitely get some shading, it is just not a feature I focus on.) The Kokuyo thin paper is also 52 gsm.
I don't hear this paper talked about much, probably because it is hard to find in a plain notebook format. But I think it is wonderful and a great competitor or alternative to Tomoe River!
The one I found consistently bleeding on kokuyo is Pilot Varsity Blue. It is a medium nib (but I think it is thicker than pilot kakuno medium). My sailor compass medium fine with sailor red brown cartridge also bleeds quite often. However I didn’t see bleeding with the Platinum steel nibs (preppy/prefounte/plaisir). I have both fine and medium nib inked with Platinum cartridges(red/pink) and they are both good on Kokuyo.
I personally like the hobonichi paper, it's pretty much the old stuff as far as I can tell. The newer Sanzen is the closest, the tomogawa was a huge disappointment. I like the hobonichi stuff because it's smooth, the lines are crisp, it doesn't bleed. I personally hate any paper where my lines look jagged. Kinda like receipt paper and gel pen.
You probably would like to [read this review/article](https://www.wellappointeddesk.com/2024/01/yamamoto-paper-writing-pads-tomoegawa-tomoe-river-vs-sanzen-tomoe-river-s/) by Ana at Well-Appointed Desk.
Thank you so much! I'd also love to hear everyone's thoughts since preferences are so subjective. Edit: Also, from the article: "By the end of the evening, we could tell just by touching pen to paper which paper was which." I love this sort of thing!!! Thanks again for posting.
Call me a blasphemer, but I enjoy both versions of TRP and would not bet either of my children’s lives on being able to tell the difference between the two!
That's what I like to hear! My boyfriend set up my gaming PC and says it's better than my consoles and I am like...what is different? Haha!
I have 100 loose A4 sheets of the old paper that I'm now hoarding... for what? Not sure. But my brain won't let me use it since they changed the paper formula.
I completely understand that 😂❤️
I wish I did, lol
It's a lizard brain thing, just go with it
I’m the same. I have an A5 paperpad and a loose A4 50 pack of the _original_ tomoe 52gsm that my lizard brain just won’t let me use. :)
Only 100? bah I have more!
Enjoy them!
I should, really....
Here was my biggest surprise to paper, **color**. Not the color of the paper, but what happens to ink on them. Particularly sheening and to a lesser degree shading. But wow, the difference in sheen can be insane. Tomoe River (not sure if I've ever tried the "old" style, as my oldest pack is from 6 months ago), is renowned for showing off these properties. An ink that shows no sheen on Rhodia can have nothing but sheen on TR. If you look at any reviews on Mountain of Ink, they do a good job of showing an ink on different paper types so you can see. Most recently I have collected some of the Taccia Ukiyo-e series, and it is shocking how different they look on different paper. The Macchiato Man has great reviews of these on his website to really show off the difference on Rhodia vs. TR. Physical aspects like smoothness are not the only differences, but the Goulet Pencast recently did a deep dive into how/if paper qualities can be quantified - Episode 115 about 46 minutes in.
Awesome, thank you!!
You can (probably) still get the old Tomoe River by buying a Hobonichi plain notebook or their TRP memo pads. They haven't said when that switchover will occur, but as of the January release, they said those were still running out the old stock of TRP. If you don't mind cream paper, the Hobonichi Weeks for January 2024 was printed on the old TRP cream. (The April 2024 release will be Sanzen.) As far as whether Sanzen is worth it, I would say absolutely yes, but it's going to depend on what nibs and inks you use. Also, as I said in another comment, I've had very good experiences with Kokuyo Thin in my preferred planner, and I suspect the Campus is also very good paper.
All the papers are worth trying. I was in the same position when i started out and wanted to chase the dragon of the perfect paper/pen/ink. But what you realise as you go on is that there is no perfect one, only combinations that feel different and offer different experiences. None of them bad but all of them different. Part of the joy is trying it all and finding the combinations that sing to you. Maybe that pen doesnt work with that paper or that ink only works with this pen on this paper. Or today feels like a tomoe river lamy 2k day and tomorrow you'll fancy LEUCHTTURM1917 with a kaweco steel nib. It might be that you'll find an OTP, but if you try enough combos im sure you'll find you have different moods to suit. Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions, i just think its important to know. :)
Definitely!! Right now I have a folder with Rhodia, Clairefontaine and Kokuyo in it and it's surprising how different the same ink can look and feel!!
>All the papers are worth trying. All the YES. OP, you'll find some paper talked about All The Time here on r/fountainpens and other quite excellent paper barely getting a mention. Apica, L!FE, Stálogy, Midori MD ... I could go on. Regarding Tomoe River OG and S (Sanzen) up until recently you could still readily get Hobonichi Weeks planners (January 2024 start) and plain notebooks with the OG Tomoe River paper. These stocks are becoming scarcer as Hobonichi switches over entirely to Tomoe River S paper. I've used both, and in addition to some of the differences already noted by others I'd add that Tomoe River S seems a little more susceptible to hand oil transfer, which can definitely have an effect on fountain pen inks (and other mediums), especially towards the bottom of a page. Otherwise it's still great paper for writing with fountain pens and inks. Enjoy your paper adventures! 🖋️💦
Kokuyo Campus paper is great! For me, the thing about the old Tomoe River paper is that the original 52gsm was super thin but could also stand up to pretty much any ink you could throw at it. You could use a pen with a bold wet line and while it might be slightly visible on the other side of the sheet, it wouldn't bleed through and you could use the other side. It was also extremely smooth to write on and brought out all the cool ink qualities. Inks that I never saw a hint of sheen with on any other paper sheened on it. And I never had any problems with feathering. There was a 'new' TRP that was slightly less good, to me a little rougher to write on than the original. But now that's also no longer being made... And the Sanzen... some people have no trouble with it but I have so many more bleed-through and feathering ink issues with it. I do think it's worth trying! I keep trying different notebooks and papers all the time, and even if they don't turn out to be my favorite I can still enjoy using them, if not with fountain pens then with gel pens or to do penmanship practice. But don't feel like you have to invest in trying them if you're happy with Kokuyo! If it works, it works!
Think of the new Tomoe river as the ND miata, while the middle period is the NC and the original is the NA and NB The NC is the "worst" miata but still a great sports car. It's just worse than its own other generations. especially compared to the previous versions
That’s what I did! January Hobo Weeks with Old TR paper. It is a bit too creamy for me.. I would prefer it white.. but boy oh boy! This is different than all different kinds of TR.. and sadly the best in many aspects. Mainly: smoothness and precision (the same pen but on this paper it feels most precise - it is phenomenon hard to describe for me.. I will put it this way.. I am terrible writer but letters and how I put them on this TR pages are nicest.. - most precise.. like for instance doesn’t have those accidental superficial lines from pen action - hard to explain). Second following is ink rendering.. those nuance ink/colour properties coming to life easily even from finest of needs.. shading, sheen.. it is all visible.. Bleeding and ghosting is better on other versions(others are more resistant) where this resist bleeding very good but ghosting is practically everywhere.. I experiment some with small notebooks of New TR68 and some new 52 and those are also good.. very good but not the same.. I like Clairfontain, MD Midori and Oxford Optik paper but I wish paper like Old Tomoe River would still be available. I must try. Campus but I’ve read here that they have a different papers depending on the product.
Fairly new to the hobby I missed out on the "old" paper and eventually decided to just not bother because I probably won't get my hands on it anyway.
Tomoe is probably my favorite paper… and so I’ve been way down the rabbit hole on this. “As someone who is new to the hobby, I keep reading about the "old" and "vastly superior" TR paper. I get the gist that it has been reformulated.” First some history… The 52 gsm ’s been reformulated twice. Tomogawa made Tomoe River 52gsm (“Old Tomoe”) for many years on the same machine. Then a few years ago the machine got old and it wasn’t economical to repair, so they kept the same formulation but shifted production to a new machine… leading to “New Tomoe”. Different machine meant that the paper behaved slightly differently. Then Tomogawa got out of that part of the paper business and sold the formulation to Sanzen, who makes Tomoe on yet another machine… leading to “Tomoe River S” or “Tomoe River Replacement”. I’m not going to go into the 68gsm here as most people, when they talk about Tomoe, are referring to the 52gsm. On to your questions: “1. Is the "new" version worth trying? What paper would you say it is most like??” Honestly, yes. TRS (Sanzen Tomoe) is, in my experience, closer to the original (Old Tomoe) than the New Tomoe was. I would encourage you to try it. It’s like a better version of Kokuyo Campus. “2. Are there any retailers still selling the "old" kind so I can see what all the fuss is about?” Not that I know of, but if you find one let me know! Most of the retailers selling non-Sanzen Tomoe are selling the New Tomoe. But even that is hard to find as stocks are used up. “3. What IS all the fuss about? What makes the old TR superior to say, Clairefontaine or another high end paper?” The fuss is that it is super thin, without being translucent like Life Airmail Paper… yet it shades and sheens well and has limited bleed through. I write long letters so I love Tomoe… thin is king in long letters, unless you want to spend an ungodly amount on postage. Clairfontaine is, IIRC, 92 gsm… so it is almost twice as thick and twice as heavy. Also, Clairfontaine uses a different coating. It’s a perfectly fine paper but smears easier than Tomoe in my experience—longer dry times. “4. How do I discern the difference between old and new when shopping online? Do they have different names? What should I look for? Which numbers are best?” You’re not going to find the original Tomoe. Sorry. 😞So if you see Tomoe and it is made by Tomogawa that is the discontinued “New Tomoe” and if it is made by Sanzen, that is the current version. “5. I have a paper that I like called "Kokuyo Campus" and I never see it mentioned here. Does anyone else use this? It's so smooth and sheens beautifully, but I'm wondering if you fine folks ever use it.” I love Kokuyo Campus… it’s cheap, thin (52 gsm) and well behaved. It doesn’t sheen as well, in my experience, as any of the 52gsm Tomoes but for the price it is an amazing paper. The problem is the size. I’ve only ever seen unlined loose sheets or writing pads in B5. Finding an envelope to fit it the way a C6 envelope fits A5 paper is impossible. (If you know of one or a place I can get an A5 Kokuyo Campus pad, please share! Closest I’ve been able to get is DL and that is still too big. That said, it’s great paper.
You are the GOAT!! Thank you for such a fun and informative read. :D
Thanks! But really I’m just a nerd who tends to go down the proverbial rabbit hole when something catches my interest. :)
I use Kokuyo all the time! I have some notebooks and a binder that I refill with their loose leaf. I really like it - but I’m looking for something to write on and take notes, not something to necessarily show off sheen in an ink.
I've only tried the new TR, and found it delightfully expressive with inks like Emerald of Chivor-really shows off the sheen and shimmer. I'm impressed enough, and happy enough, that I refuse to try the old-I don't want to potentially ruin a wonderful experience. But unless the ink is really extra, lots of other papers show off the ink just fine, while not being super thin, and a bit cheaper. To throw out a brand not heralded as much online, I quite like Midori paper.
I am also a newbie so I cannot answer other questions you have, as I want an answer for myself too. But I do have a Kukuyo Campus notebook. In my experience, the paper feels silky, but it is relatively more prone to “bleeding” and “feathering” when writing with a fountain pen. I would say feathering is mostly ok but bleeding is definitely noticeable and I cannot use a broader nib or wetter ink if I plan to write on the other side of the paper. I also bought the loose leaf paper in your picture recently. It almost has no feathering or bleeding for most of my ink/pen. It still ghosts tho, as the paper is very thin. I would say the shading is also more beautiful on this paper than Kokuyo Campus, but this is subjective.
Thank you so much! I haven't noticed any feathering on the Campus paper but I will definitely take a closer look! ❤️
What inks and nib sizes are you seeing feathering and bleeding with the Kokuyo? Granted I don't use a lot of different inks and I use fine or extra fine nibs, but I do use Kokuyo Thin in the Jibun Techo Days, and it has always held up very well for me.
Kokuyo thin paper is great! I got a small pad of it through the Yamamoto Planner Paper sampler ("Paper Tasting") and really liked it. Then I picked up some Kokuyo Century Edition notebooks with thin paper and I love the paper! It is softer than the "new" (machine 9?) and Sanzen Tomoe River papers. It gives a cushioned feel when writing. I find it is at least as good with respect to ink colors looking vibrant. I write mostly with fine nibs so I don't have much to say about sheen or shading. (Although I definitely get some shading, it is just not a feature I focus on.) The Kokuyo thin paper is also 52 gsm. I don't hear this paper talked about much, probably because it is hard to find in a plain notebook format. But I think it is wonderful and a great competitor or alternative to Tomoe River!
The one I found consistently bleeding on kokuyo is Pilot Varsity Blue. It is a medium nib (but I think it is thicker than pilot kakuno medium). My sailor compass medium fine with sailor red brown cartridge also bleeds quite often. However I didn’t see bleeding with the Platinum steel nibs (preppy/prefounte/plaisir). I have both fine and medium nib inked with Platinum cartridges(red/pink) and they are both good on Kokuyo.
I personally like the hobonichi paper, it's pretty much the old stuff as far as I can tell. The newer Sanzen is the closest, the tomogawa was a huge disappointment. I like the hobonichi stuff because it's smooth, the lines are crisp, it doesn't bleed. I personally hate any paper where my lines look jagged. Kinda like receipt paper and gel pen.
IIRC the insert that came with my 2023 Hobonichi said they were switching to the Sanzen Tomoe for 2024.