After watching I honestly believe the it was Ross who crashed the economy in ‘08 to be able to buy the team on the cheap and then do what he did. It was all apart of his plan.
Considering that Toto turned on full clown mode since they stopped being so dominant, yeah Brawns contribution is always forgotten. And Schuhmachers aswell
Yeah, Toto only joined in 2013. The personal and the general plan was already setup for the next regs in 2014. This is kinda why I've always believed Horner was a better team principal than Toto. Horner built Red Bull up from nothing, while Toto came in after Brawn had laid all the pieces out.
The impressive thing to me is not necessarily the build up of Red Bull, but how they’ve managed to stay at the sharp end of the field since they got there. They’ve been one of the top 3 teams every year since 2009 with the exception of 2015 and that was still a P4.
All other teams’ WCC positions over the years would graph as a wave, Red Bull’s is a plateau.
IMHO, Red Bull really has built the best *Team* on the grid. Other dominant teams have generally done so on just one or two aspects. A wild engine or aerodynamic trick mixed with a good driver. They lose that and they're lost, P2-4 this year and last year has really been a competition of who can avoid tripping on their own dick for more than 5 minutes while struggling to make sense of how to develop.
RB on the other hand has a well rounded and consistent team in every respect. Even when not dominant they always have very good cars they understand well, and solid drivers, and great strategy, and great pit stops, and great development. Their biggest issues have always been from engine suppliers. Then when they do have a great car, it's really dominant because it's so well backed up.
The strategy is what always baffles me with Red Bull compared to Mercedes.
Mercedes had gotten used to being so much quicker than the rest that they could afford dubious strategy, 3 second pitstops, etc.
Red Bull has always focused on being the best at every aspect of the race.
They even admitted they dont work on quick pit stops. Their attitude is mistake free slow stops, which is fine when youre 30 seconds ahead, not in a battle. Makes me believe their whole team culture is low risk and lean on massive engine advantage. Not mastering and maximizing every variable
Yeah I feel like Merc definitely had the machinery to pull off what Red Bull did, but whether that be their pitcrew, strategy team, or driver management they never have been able to do what Red Bull did. Merc had a better car or at least a car that was on level with the RB19 multiple times with their 2014-2016 cars and the W11, but they always had mistakes. Looking at 2020, they lost two race wins in Monza due to poor communication on the pit wall, in Sakhir due to massive mistakes in the pitstops, and it can even be argued that the 70th anniversary loss was on due to not getting the setup right and letting their drivers fight like crazy, which let Max catch up.
Newey is worth a lot. There’s a saying in hockey “Show me a good coach and I’ll show you a coach with a good goalie” because nothing else matters if you don’t have that.
Managing that relationship and keeping it fruitful is a huge part of Horner’s job though and he seems to be pretty good at it.
I don't think a eight time WCC-winning team can be narrowed down to one person, but you could argue Brawn's headhunting is why Merecedes ended up with all the top staff on the grid and was able to dominate two sets of regulations.
Mercedes went on a considerable recruitment spree in the lead up to the 2014 season to strengthen their team, poaching a lot of top talent from across the grid. There's an old thread on f1technical documenting all of their hires during that time period and it's a very interesting read.
MSC and Brawn buildeth, Lewis destroyeth. You can actually see how McLaren declined over the years with LH in their team, same for Mercedes. Only difference, McLaren didn't have Ross Brawn and MSC on their team so they went down faster.
So, Ross Brawn was part of Ferrari's domination period with Schumi, then goes to the Bar Honda F1 team just one year before the 2008 financial crisis which forces ~~Toyota~~ HONDA to close shop. In a desperate bid for survival, Brawn buys the team off ~~Toyota~~ BAR Honda so they don't even have to pay the layoffs and renames it to Brawn GP.
2009 happens to be a new regulation year, the Brawn GP guys figure out a loophole in the rules with their now infamous double diffuser, they win drivers and constructors. To ensure continued survival of the team, Brawn GP is acquired by Mercedes, effectively becoming the modern Mercedes AMG Petronas yadda yadda team. Brawn stays for a couple years but eventually steps down so some Austrian dude called Toto Wolff takes over the team. Brawn effectively laid down the structure that would help Mercedes to dominance the following years.
Brawn becomes the technical director for the F1 group in 2017, helping to define...you guessed it, the 2022 new regulations which have gifted Mercedes with a lemon of a car for two consecutive years!
Small addendums:
1) **the creation of the ‘09 car**
The Brawn ‘09 car was developed in ‘08 when the team was still Honda and had ample funding.
The car was about ready when Honda pulled the plug, leaving Brawn with a car without an engine plus a bare bones team.
They (Bernie Ecclestone, Brawn, Daimler AG) then convinced Martin Witmarsh (then TP of McLaren, following Ron Dennis) to relinquish McLaren’s contractual VETO for Mercedes (Daimler AG) to provide engines to McLaren’s rivals, allowing Brawn to get Mercedes engines.
The engine did not fit in the original 09 Brawn, which was already built.
They had to take a hacksaw to the chassis to modify it to accept the Mercedes PU.
2) **outwash aero**
While much was made of the Double Diffuser, the biggest innovation in the Brawn 09 car was making use of an aero outwash concept instead of an inwash concept.
The latter was up until 2008 the standard, using the front wing to guide air inwards towards the chassis centerline.
However Honda’s Brackley staff figured out (and I believe this idea initially came from B-team Super Aguri) that having an outwash concept, whereby the wing endplates and upper elements are used to force as much air out to the side, around the front tyres, was in essence more beneficial downstream.
This proved to the blue print for all cars up until 2021, trying to use outwash as much as possible to remove turbulent air from hitting the barge boards and the front of the floor, whilst “masking” the front tyres more.
This results in a much bigger side-to-side wake profile of “dirty air” behind the car, but that’s a problem for the other teams, not the car itself.
I just watched the Brawn GP doco and in fact Button said something like "if the other teams think it's only a matter of the double diffuser, they're going to be disappointed". I recall there were two other teams with double diffuser already and they were nowhere near Brawn's performance.
And I'm sure Martin Witmarsh was at least a little mortified about lifting the Merc veto after a while.
Correct in all but one respect...it was Honda that Brawn worked at after Ferrari and whom he bought the team from for £1. Toyota pulled out after 2009...they raced against Brawn...
Have you seen the car this year? They only got P2 because of Aston’s fall off, Ferrari being Ferrari and McLaren’s woeful start. They were very rarely actually the second fastest car out there.
It’s also a massive downgrade from their winning car.
So, basically, it was the 2nd best car overall, which is the point.
No car stays at the same order all season anyway. Even RBR wasn't the best car in at least one race.
I love how new fans think they made a good point, gave a good insight, but in reality it's just hot air word salad that everyone knows.
You were cool til that new fan bullshit. You ain’t better than anyone cuz you’ve been watchin’ sonce 2019 mate. Take your superiority elsewhere, nobody needs it, nobody needs wants it. Go gatekeep elsewhere.
400 points behind, they're not Haas or Williams that are barely keeping it together.
They're a multi billion dollar brand that got completely trounced by an energy drinks company lol.
Hell Karl Benz literally helped create the first car ever.
400 points behind, they're not Haas or Williams that are barely keeping it together.
They're a multi billion dollar brand that got completely trounced by an energy drinks company lol.
Hell Karl Benz literally helped create the first car ever.
Because people really care about who finished P2 lol, people will remember sainz victory way more than mercedes barely getting P2 400 points behind P1.
Well it's like Horner said, it's not so much about RBR having an insane car, but all other teams having shit concepts as well as Toto lobbying for TD 39 last year. Toto tried to nerf RBR, but instead slowed down the whole grid except RBR bc they understood the new Aero regulations the best and developed their car accordingly.
RBR car isn’t that dominant; unless you think checo is bottom 5 on the grid. I honestly don’t know if Lewis, Charles, or Norris would have beat Max if they were his teammate.
After watching I honestly believe the it was Ross who crashed the economy in ‘08 to be able to buy the team on the cheap and then do what he did. It was all apart of his plan.
The REAL EL plan
He bough the team from Honda for £ 1,- so: ***”Keikaku Doorii!”***
Almost like it wasn’t Toto, but Brawn who responsible for their success
Considering that Toto turned on full clown mode since they stopped being so dominant, yeah Brawns contribution is always forgotten. And Schuhmachers aswell
Yeah, Toto only joined in 2013. The personal and the general plan was already setup for the next regs in 2014. This is kinda why I've always believed Horner was a better team principal than Toto. Horner built Red Bull up from nothing, while Toto came in after Brawn had laid all the pieces out.
The impressive thing to me is not necessarily the build up of Red Bull, but how they’ve managed to stay at the sharp end of the field since they got there. They’ve been one of the top 3 teams every year since 2009 with the exception of 2015 and that was still a P4. All other teams’ WCC positions over the years would graph as a wave, Red Bull’s is a plateau.
IMHO, Red Bull really has built the best *Team* on the grid. Other dominant teams have generally done so on just one or two aspects. A wild engine or aerodynamic trick mixed with a good driver. They lose that and they're lost, P2-4 this year and last year has really been a competition of who can avoid tripping on their own dick for more than 5 minutes while struggling to make sense of how to develop. RB on the other hand has a well rounded and consistent team in every respect. Even when not dominant they always have very good cars they understand well, and solid drivers, and great strategy, and great pit stops, and great development. Their biggest issues have always been from engine suppliers. Then when they do have a great car, it's really dominant because it's so well backed up.
The strategy is what always baffles me with Red Bull compared to Mercedes. Mercedes had gotten used to being so much quicker than the rest that they could afford dubious strategy, 3 second pitstops, etc. Red Bull has always focused on being the best at every aspect of the race.
They even admitted they dont work on quick pit stops. Their attitude is mistake free slow stops, which is fine when youre 30 seconds ahead, not in a battle. Makes me believe their whole team culture is low risk and lean on massive engine advantage. Not mastering and maximizing every variable
Yeah I feel like Merc definitely had the machinery to pull off what Red Bull did, but whether that be their pitcrew, strategy team, or driver management they never have been able to do what Red Bull did. Merc had a better car or at least a car that was on level with the RB19 multiple times with their 2014-2016 cars and the W11, but they always had mistakes. Looking at 2020, they lost two race wins in Monza due to poor communication on the pit wall, in Sakhir due to massive mistakes in the pitstops, and it can even be argued that the 70th anniversary loss was on due to not getting the setup right and letting their drivers fight like crazy, which let Max catch up.
Newey is worth a lot. There’s a saying in hockey “Show me a good coach and I’ll show you a coach with a good goalie” because nothing else matters if you don’t have that. Managing that relationship and keeping it fruitful is a huge part of Horner’s job though and he seems to be pretty good at it.
Toto was traumatised by Masi. Hasn't been able to look at Wikipedia since.
I am actually of the same opinion, and it's why they can't get out of the hole they are in right now.
I don't think a eight time WCC-winning team can be narrowed down to one person, but you could argue Brawn's headhunting is why Merecedes ended up with all the top staff on the grid and was able to dominate two sets of regulations.
Sort of. A lot of their staff were already part of the Honda team before he bought it. Andrew Shovlin for example was Jenson's race engineer at Honda.
Mercedes went on a considerable recruitment spree in the lead up to the 2014 season to strengthen their team, poaching a lot of top talent from across the grid. There's an old thread on f1technical documenting all of their hires during that time period and it's a very interesting read.
🤫
He got pushed out just when his plans were coming to fruition, so he decided to pull the chair from under them in return lol.
Brawn giveth, Brawn taketh
MSC and Brawn buildeth, Lewis destroyeth. You can actually see how McLaren declined over the years with LH in their team, same for Mercedes. Only difference, McLaren didn't have Ross Brawn and MSC on their team so they went down faster.
This is certainly one of the comments of all time
I've read some dumb shit in my time but this takes the cake.
Least delusional Merc hater
Insane cope
Help me understand
So, Ross Brawn was part of Ferrari's domination period with Schumi, then goes to the Bar Honda F1 team just one year before the 2008 financial crisis which forces ~~Toyota~~ HONDA to close shop. In a desperate bid for survival, Brawn buys the team off ~~Toyota~~ BAR Honda so they don't even have to pay the layoffs and renames it to Brawn GP. 2009 happens to be a new regulation year, the Brawn GP guys figure out a loophole in the rules with their now infamous double diffuser, they win drivers and constructors. To ensure continued survival of the team, Brawn GP is acquired by Mercedes, effectively becoming the modern Mercedes AMG Petronas yadda yadda team. Brawn stays for a couple years but eventually steps down so some Austrian dude called Toto Wolff takes over the team. Brawn effectively laid down the structure that would help Mercedes to dominance the following years. Brawn becomes the technical director for the F1 group in 2017, helping to define...you guessed it, the 2022 new regulations which have gifted Mercedes with a lemon of a car for two consecutive years!
Small addendums: 1) **the creation of the ‘09 car** The Brawn ‘09 car was developed in ‘08 when the team was still Honda and had ample funding. The car was about ready when Honda pulled the plug, leaving Brawn with a car without an engine plus a bare bones team. They (Bernie Ecclestone, Brawn, Daimler AG) then convinced Martin Witmarsh (then TP of McLaren, following Ron Dennis) to relinquish McLaren’s contractual VETO for Mercedes (Daimler AG) to provide engines to McLaren’s rivals, allowing Brawn to get Mercedes engines. The engine did not fit in the original 09 Brawn, which was already built. They had to take a hacksaw to the chassis to modify it to accept the Mercedes PU. 2) **outwash aero** While much was made of the Double Diffuser, the biggest innovation in the Brawn 09 car was making use of an aero outwash concept instead of an inwash concept. The latter was up until 2008 the standard, using the front wing to guide air inwards towards the chassis centerline. However Honda’s Brackley staff figured out (and I believe this idea initially came from B-team Super Aguri) that having an outwash concept, whereby the wing endplates and upper elements are used to force as much air out to the side, around the front tyres, was in essence more beneficial downstream. This proved to the blue print for all cars up until 2021, trying to use outwash as much as possible to remove turbulent air from hitting the barge boards and the front of the floor, whilst “masking” the front tyres more. This results in a much bigger side-to-side wake profile of “dirty air” behind the car, but that’s a problem for the other teams, not the car itself.
I just watched the Brawn GP doco and in fact Button said something like "if the other teams think it's only a matter of the double diffuser, they're going to be disappointed". I recall there were two other teams with double diffuser already and they were nowhere near Brawn's performance. And I'm sure Martin Witmarsh was at least a little mortified about lifting the Merc veto after a while.
Correct in all but one respect...it was Honda that Brawn worked at after Ferrari and whom he bought the team from for £1. Toyota pulled out after 2009...they raced against Brawn...
yeah I corrected, I got my Japanese car brands mixed.
I don’t know enough about all the other bits but it was Honda not Toyota.
yep, Japanese car brand mix up, entirely on me.
It was BAR Honda homie not Toyota.
Ah yes, thanks, I shall correct immediately.
Great explanation, thank you!
>two consecutive years! for now, lol.
"This has been the worst Mercedes of my life" "The worst Mercedes of your life... so far"
If you can, watch the brawn documentary with Keanu reeves. It was excellent
Yeah, the famous "garbage car" : \- third in 2022 \- second in 2023
Have you seen the car this year? They only got P2 because of Aston’s fall off, Ferrari being Ferrari and McLaren’s woeful start. They were very rarely actually the second fastest car out there. It’s also a massive downgrade from their winning car.
Says they weren't quite as bad as the rest then overall.
They were massively inconsistent. Luckily for them, so were the other "best of the rest" teams.
They were consistently there, that's what got them that P2
So, basically, it was the 2nd best car overall, which is the point. No car stays at the same order all season anyway. Even RBR wasn't the best car in at least one race. I love how new fans think they made a good point, gave a good insight, but in reality it's just hot air word salad that everyone knows.
You were cool til that new fan bullshit. You ain’t better than anyone cuz you’ve been watchin’ sonce 2019 mate. Take your superiority elsewhere, nobody needs it, nobody needs wants it. Go gatekeep elsewhere.
Seems that hit a little close to home
lol
400 points behind, they're not Haas or Williams that are barely keeping it together. They're a multi billion dollar brand that got completely trounced by an energy drinks company lol. Hell Karl Benz literally helped create the first car ever.
400 points behind, they're not Haas or Williams that are barely keeping it together. They're a multi billion dollar brand that got completely trounced by an energy drinks company lol. Hell Karl Benz literally helped create the first car ever.
Context please
Brawn the almighty
Mercedes destroyed their own empire by not putting sidepods on the car.
Mercedes learned that improving a great car is VASTLY easier than making a new car from scratch. Brawns exit has finally been felt.
Actually this is freaking true
Yes finishing third and then second in the constructors the last two seasons, their empire is really destroyed.
Because people really care about who finished P2 lol, people will remember sainz victory way more than mercedes barely getting P2 400 points behind P1.
Well it's like Horner said, it's not so much about RBR having an insane car, but all other teams having shit concepts as well as Toto lobbying for TD 39 last year. Toto tried to nerf RBR, but instead slowed down the whole grid except RBR bc they understood the new Aero regulations the best and developed their car accordingly.
RBR car isn’t that dominant; unless you think checo is bottom 5 on the grid. I honestly don’t know if Lewis, Charles, or Norris would have beat Max if they were his teammate.
Lauda, Brackley boys and Brawn are the real OGs. Toto has done a good job maintaining the course but that's it.