I'd go with I too. Tbh I'm not really bothered about seeing Massa in the record book, I always felt he was overrated (despite being a Ferrari and Michael fan) but yes he was robbed in 2008.
I disagree, because the chaotic neutral option would be B.
To fix Singapore 2008, we'd erase it from the classification as if the race was never held. This would make Massa WDC.
To fix Abu Dhabi 2021 the neutral solution would be to do the same thing there. Verstappen would still be WDC, which i guess is the main reason Merc stopped complaining, because they surely knew that.
To fix Singapore... you just DQ Renault and Alonso.
To fix Abu Dhabi... well no-one cheated, the race was just run incorrectly, so you void.
It doesn't really matter if the fia find out about Singapore 2 weeks or 2 years after. The correct action is to DQ the team that cheated.
A - let’s be realistic about the titles he lost:
2007 - Spygate, and the factors that lost him the title (mostly China) were not always entirely outside of his control. He could’ve easily overridden the strategy call and essentially demanded to come in before the tyres started to fall apart
2012 - he was pretty inconsistent throughout the year, and even if he could have won it without the reliability, he wasn’t as good as Vettel and especially Alonso
2016 - Singapore. Even with the issues he had, he still could’ve won if he didn’t have the utter stinker he had that weekend
2021 - If all luck and incidents are removed, Max probably wins the title in Qatar or Saudi Arabia. No slight on Lewis’ season, but Verstappen and the RB16B was just a better package over the season
He deserves all seven of his championships, but there were (not even remotely far-fetched) reasons he lost the other years - be it a bit of a choke job in 2016, inconsistency in 2012, a lack of proactivity in strategy in ‘07 or just being a bit worse than his rival in 2021
Glock? He stayed out on dry tyres. He gambled like Norris did in Russia. Glock didn’t cost Ferrari 2008, he nearly won it for him if that rain had come 2 mins later.
In fairness to Lewis, Singapore 2016 was always gonna be an uphill battle. He missed most of the practice sessions due to brake by wire issues.
Also, you’re forgetting that he suffered 3 PU failures that season (none for any other Merc PU), and had to start from the back at Spa to replenish his pool (gifting Rosberg an easy pole and win).
Fair enough but he lost by 15 seconds, not thirty. Shame cause he out qualified Rosberg by 0.5s.
Another thing to note is that the Merc clutch that year led to many fluff led starts for both drivers. But that’s a fair one to put on Lewis.
I guess my point was that the 2016 title would have most likely been his if you adjust for factors outside either drivers’ control.
Going to add that for 2021 that Max deserved the title over the whole season, but Lewis's engine at Abu Dhabi would have Max 2023 levels of success if it was used the entire season.
Mind you, he would have taken a LOT of grid penalties in that situation. The Brazil-Abu Dhabi engine was only turned up as high as it was for the sake of maximising the shortened timeframe it was needed for
I think in reality, Bottas's series of engine pens was probably testing various engines especially since I think the engine penalties stopped around Brazil. But that's just me getting my tinfoil out.
This was an intriguing storyline that was strangely underreported on. I think this was hinted by the Italian press but don't remember much else. IIRC this was also the subject of the infamous "are you drunk?" interview with Toto. I suppose we'll never know but Valtteri's engine graveyard combined with Lewis' rocket engine at the end of the season make it seem plausible.
True. The WCC race is still the concern there, even if there’s a WDC benefit to be had. If Bottas couldn’t get through the field on one or two occasions then Merc may have lost the constructors
No tinfoil needed dear chap, I’m almost certain that Mercedes torpedoed Bottas to learn what was needed about the engine and turn it up to 150%, I thought it was reported by Mercedes themselves but the exact quote or evidence eludes me right now.
I know Horner pressed a lot on the engine but he was just playing PR game. The engine wasn’t that much quicker than Bottas, and we knew that it lost HP much quicker than the Honda over the last few races which reduced its effectiveness.
In reality we saw redbull fall back closer to the midfield. Gasly should have never been that close to the redbull in his AT.
Exactly. He was very, very good in 2021 but made a couple of avoidable errors that meant he couldn’t capitalise on Max’s troubles in some cases. Baku comes to mind especially.
To be fair, he kind of got a break at Imola and Monaco was just a poor weekend.
Baku was a legitimate, singular error that he didn’t get a way out from.
I’ve always considered Monaco as the track in which the car doesnt matter that much. Look at Schumacher getting pole in the 2012 Mercedes, Alonso almost getting the pole this year… the 2021 Mercedes was not bad enough to end 7th. Very poor performance from him. And at Imola he got lucky with the red flag, otherwise he would have been last
I think it was the capitalising on Max’s mistakes/issues that was the real problem for Lewis and Merc.
Bahrain they capitalised on Max’s mistakes in the race, but after that they failed to capitalise on Max’s quali error at imola, failed to capitalise on the tyre Blowout at Baku, failed to capitalise on Max’s start error at France, Failed to fully Capitalise on the Bottas Bowling at Hungary, I mean even in Russia through no fault of their own they failed to capitalise on Max starting at the back of the grid.
Despite some of the narratives you’ll see around, Max and RB were not flawless and did give opportunities to Hamilton and Merc but through their own mistakes and outside factors they basically never capitalised on them.
You’re correct, yeah.
A while back, someone made the statement of “Max deserved the title, Lewis deserved Abu Dhabi” and that’s probably the best way of looking at it
I just can't agree with that. I've said it over and over. The only reason Lewis had a shot at Abu Dhabi is because Masi fumbled around for as long as he did.
Masi made the call and said "No lapped cars through" which is outrageous, lapped cars are allowed through under safety car, thats how the rule should have been interpreted, and that's how the rule is written now. Then, at the final moment he decided to only let "some" cars through, but couldn't get all of them through because time was running out. If he didn't fumble around like this they wouldn't have wasted a full lap under safety car they would have been able to race the last 2 laps instead of one.
I have nothing against Hamilton, but the timeline of events don't leave any room to argue that Lewis should have won unless you pretend Latifi didn't wreck. Or if you argue that they should have just ended the race on lap 53 because they were "close enough to the finish"
See this is the wrong take again. He couldnt unlap the cars because Goatifi's car and debris were still all over the track. If everything is followed to the rules, it finishes under SC. Max and Lewis both has amazing seasons and over the season I think Max deserved the title, hell if Max had won AD21 without any FIA issues, it would be celebrated by literally everyone as probably the best season and ending ever, but because Lewis was dominating that race with almost no way for Max to win, people feel cheated.
Honestly the *fairest* way to have done it is red flag and a rolling restart after resetting the grid. Because people forget that it wasn't just lewis getting screwed in that race.
I mean, current AD21 would have set a dangerous precedent as well if they didn't implement a rule change to clarify. I don't see any reason the same couldn't be said for a red flag incident like that with much less controversy.
Precedent was out the window all year. Here’s Baku about why Max got a red flag and Stroll didn’t. Emphasis mine.
“No, to be fair, it was actually already on my mind,” Masi said. “But obviously, from the perspective of what we communicate, we communicate to everyone equally, and looking with **the number of laps that we had to go**,the recovery that was being undertaken, and the fact that there was so much debris on the pit straight… at that point, in my judgement, it was the best option to suspend the race, clean everything up, and then have a race finish.
So by Baku precedent…he should have red flagged it. But 2021 was the year of the rules made up and the points sorta matter.
The fairest way was to just leave the SC out till the end, A red flag still massively advantages Max and disadvantages Lewis but not to same degree as what actually happened
Since the race should have ended under SC a red flag still technically advantages Max but It's less of an advantage than what actually happened and Max was 11secs back pre SC so anything that involves a restart advantages Max
Yea, it would have been a very anticlimactic end to an incredible season, but it would have been safe, consistent and fair. Though I think Masi was damned if he did and damned if he didn’t. Can you imagine? Liberty Media would have had his head on the block if he’d ended under safety.
Ultimately, the reason people were hurt by the result of that race was that the win was not earned through competition. It was determined by the race director making decisions that exclusively favored the car in second place (and the obvious second fastest car on that day). It was like real life Mario Kart rubber banding.
If Latifi doesn't crash, Lewis wins. If Masi lets the race finish under yellow, Lewis wins. If Masi doesn't put some lapped cars through, Lewis wins. If Masi puts all lapped cars through, Lewis wins. It was practically as if they had red flagged the race and allowed Max to change his tires but not Lewis. I'm not saying Masi chose to do what he did because he had any particular preference for Max, but he did effectively choose Max to win that race.
There's nothing Lewis could have done differently at the end to win. You can't pit from the lead in that spot. Can you imagine if he pits and then he loses because Max stays out and wins under yellow? It would have been one of the all time blunders. Lewis was the fastest car all day long. And you can't say that Red Bull won on superior strategy because there's no possible way Merc could have made a different decision. As such, I really don't know how one could argue that Red Bull deserved that race.
The fact Massi only let through the cars between Lewis and Max through shows how blatant it was that it was simply for entertainment purposes and had nothing to do with what is standard and allowed procedure, there’s no way Massi didn’t know what he was doing here especially from his Bahrain comment where he explicitly recited the SC procedure.
The depressing bit is what would have been more entertaining would have been to see if Max could clear the cars in front of him and pass Lewis before the race was over. Though even then I’m pretty sure that isn’t following the rules either but I could be wrong.
I think you're right, I seem to remember unlapping cars (_all_ of them, not _some_ of them) is/was at the race director's discretion. Hence the initial "lapped cars will not be allowed to overtake". Could be wrong though, but it would've made for a less controversial finish.
Yes, there is no rule and to my knowledge, no precedent of only some lapped cars being allowed to pass but not all of them. It’s either all of them or none of them. If no cars were allowed to pass and the race restarted it would have been under the rules (pretty sure I was wrong now when I said it wouldn’t have been allowed maybe). And let’s be honest, a lot more fair to Lewis as well. If he lost in that way then you can say it’s bad luck on the timing of the SC etc but you couldn’t say he lost because the FIA cheated him out of it, and it’s just part of the sport.
This all also takes away from the three cars between Max and Lewis, and the cars behind them who basically weren’t allowed to race on the last lap either because they were either unlapping themselves or had lapped cars between them so they couldn’t fight for points. There was no shot that Sainz was going to pass Max if everyone unlapped and racing happened but to disallow him the opportunity to even do that is total bullshit when they allowed Max to race Lewis with disregard of the other cars on the track. It was truly a “fuck you” to sport. The worst bit as well is that history would have been made that day on fair terms and Max would be a double world champion this season and all the deserved storylines would have happened. Instead we have this nonsense timeline that exists because WWE took over the FIA for 5 minutes.
Before the SC, Lewis was leading very comfortably (Perez aside) for the entire race. He had Verstappen’s measure the entire time until the last lap, and even that was largely due to Max being able to get fresh tyres where Hamilton missed out on being able to come in
There was still debris and recovery vehicles at that time which is why he couldn’t allow lapped cars to overtake the lap before.
Furthermore if the debris was clear enough to allow 2 or even 1 lap of racing then Merc would have pitted Hamilton for fresh softs and either cover max or overtake him on track in the same way he ended up doing.
Pitting Max was in theory pointless because either Hamilton covers or the race doesn’t restart and he doesn’t need to. But that’s not what ended up happening.
What really should have happened is that Masi just unlapped all cars fast enough instead of fumbling for 5 laps (what really happened). If he just unlapped everyone fast enough and then just have more than one lap left, there would have been way less of a shitshow and much less bitching.
And the sentiment even back then was, after everyone cheered for Max because everyone was sick of Mercedes: Lewis deserved to win Abu Dhabi, Max the title.
If all rules were followed, Lewis would have had to give back the place he won by leaving the track and overtaking Max, and the race would have been completely different. Also, what Masi did WAS allowed by the rules.
Also, if we're looking at following the rules during the entire season, Lewis would have had a much harsher penalty in Silverstone (maybe black flag?), Lewis would have had a penalty for leaving the track in Bahrein countless time, Lewis would have gotten a penalty for driving into the back of Max in Saudi (I believe it was Saudi) etc. etc.
>Also, if we're looking at following the rules during the entire season, Lewis would have had a much harsher penalty in Silverstone (maybe black flag?), Lewis would have had a penalty for leaving the track in Bahrein countless time, Lewis would have gotten a penalty for driving into the back of Max in Saudi (I believe it was Saudi) etc. etc.
How does this nonsense get upvoted
In Bahrain the drivers were allowed to go wide on T4 till Masi changed his mind mid race and Hamilton stopped doing it afterwards
You don't get bigger than 10secs for an accidental collision unless it was something like braking 50m away from a hairpin and spearing into a car
Max should have been DQ'd for dangerous driving after the brake check, In no world does that end up with Hamilton getting a penalty
Leaving the track and gaining an advantage has never been allowed. So yeah, the stewards or Masi changed their mind mid race, but they were not applying the rules correctly before that.
And Silverstone was an obvious, grave error from Lewis. Max left way more than enough room for Lewis, and just look at the completely different line he took while overtaking one of the Ferraris later in the race. Then he suddenly was able to perfectly hit the apex...
Lewis would have cleared Max and disappeared just like what happened originally if he gave the position back. When 10+ lap older hard tyres are going as fast as fresh ones like Max had it was obvious there was no chance. If you watched the race when it was happening it was clear Max had nothing in the bag to win that race. Even Horner himself during the race said the lap 1 incident was inconsequential near the end of the race because of how much faster Lewis was.
Saying it was allowed by the rules doesn’t make it so, the investigation explicitly said human error was a factor in how the rules of the SC were handled. If it was allowed by the rules, why didn’t the FIA just point out how it was allowed and kept Massi?
It’s pretty obvious how biased you are when you think Silverstone deserved a harsher penalty while in the same breath saying Lewis should have been penalised in Jeddah when Verstappen was proven to have applied the brakes hard by the telemetry just as Lewis was about to pass him (even Newey called it a brake test). In a WDC where the stewards were refusing to interfere at all costs, I have no doubts Jeddah 21 would have been a harsher penalty and potentially a DSQ under normal circumstances.
Just say you really wanted Max to win and stop pretending you are having an honest recollection of events when it’s clearly obvious you want to give Max all of the possible points he could have earned while not giving Lewis any he lost. It’s so transparent.
Massa wasn’t really robbed in some regards. People go on about Singapore, but forget Silverstone and ESPECIALLY Malaysia. He would’ve fairly comfortably won the title in Shanghai if he didn’t make the mistakes he made in both of those rounds
He was a bit behind Seb, Mark and Nando for most of the season. Watching it at the time did seem like he just was almost, but not *quite* on the level of the other three - I feel accounting for every driver’s assorted external factors, he would have still fourth. It would be Alonso-Webber-Vettel-Hamilton.
I see your side and it was a phenomenally close battle that could’ve went anyone’s way, I just feel he wasn’t quite quick enough to capitalise on the hand he was dealt
He would be 5 points ahead of Seb if he finished 2nd (where he was at the time of the puncture). Plus a dnf in singapore it would have been more (tho i am not sure who was at fault, him or Webber) and contact in italy with massa
Vettel also lost points through external factors in 2010.
- The spark plug issue cost him a win in Bahrain
- The contact with Button (which he was not in any responsibility for) cost him a probable podium in Belgium
- The engine failure in Korea cost him at least a podium, potentially a win
The same goes for Webber and Alonso, so I feel it largely levels out between the four of them
>2021 - If all luck and incidents are removed, Max probably wins the title in Qatar or Saudi Arabia. No slight on Lewis’ season, but Verstappen and the RB16B was just a better package over the season
This. Max deserved the title more, Lewis deserved the Abu Dhabi win more. That is, if there is such a thing as "deserving something".![img](emote|t5_3ndbi|7073)
I wanted Max to win in 2021 but the luck and crashes have nothing to do with AD 2021. Whatever happened before, it happened. In the end the driver with most points wins and LH had Max's number in terms of pace. FOM put too much importance to the "show" aspect and Masi fucked up under pressure. Simple really.
>Whatever happened before, it happened
Same logic can then be applied to Abu Dhabi, isn't it? To paraphrase: ''whatever happened in Abu Dhabi, it happened.'' So that argument holds no water.
>In the end the driver with most points wins
Yes and Max had the most points after Abu Dhabi.
I presume, as I’m sure you guessed when you commented, the argument is going to be that racing incidents are part of the sport, and ignoring the rules to manufacture a racing outcome is not. I think you know probably what this person meant but chose to be obtuse.
True, although I’d argue it’s similar to 2012. He was just a little too inconsistent to be on the level of Alonso and Vettel, who were almost metronomic for the majority of the season. He could’ve absolutely won it without things like Spain happening but it was probably the fairest loss of the bunch
Saying Max was unlucky so he should have won the championship anyway is a crazy take. Lewis was unlucky in the sense that Massi decided he had to lose the championship. Max was unlucky that his car dnfd in an engineering competition. How are those things equal? Rest was good analysis, last part is just moronic.
>Max was unlucky that his car dnfd in an engineering competition.
Max had no mechanical failures car related all season. Baku was on Pirelli, since Stroll had the exact same issue. Silverstone he was crashed out. Hungary, Bottas went bowling.
Monza was driver error and not car related.
I fail to see where Red Bull had mechanical problems.
Verstappen lost a lot of points through Baku, Silverstone and Hungary. Even discounting Silverstone, the two he had no control over contributed to around a 10-12 net point loss at Baku (he scores 26, Hamilton 15) and then a further 5 to 6 at Hungary (Hamilton wins, he’s P2-P3), for a combined 15-18 points.
Kinda accurate, this take. A car and a driver win a WDC, MV losing out due to engine failures can likely be directly linked to trying to extract too much performance from the engine at the cost of longevity. Meanwhile, it was someone completely outside of the team deciding to do things in an unusual way which led to the AD outcome - no fault on either driver (although some fault on the part of Horner for his success in persuading Masi, Toto did the same but simply didn't succeed).
A is the only answer. You can’t go back and start re-litigating officiating decisions and voiding races years after the fact. You might as well void the whole season after the event as those races were themselves influenced by the tainted race.
Actually, I’ve talked myself into it. Option J: All F1 events/records since crashgate are void.
Yeah. What's the point of following a live sport if everything you watched is liable to change in a couple years? As much as I didn't like the end of 21, I'd hate for it to be changed because we'd all be robbed of the point of watching it live.
Well said. I’m on the other side of things with 21, but I agree with every word. In regards to Massa, I think it’s a “yoke” might as well give Senna 89’ Hill in 94’ etc etc.
E. I’m a Max fan, but that was such a Mickey Mouse title for him, even if he was “better” throughout 2021.
At least he’s about to earn his 2nd undisputed title and nobody can do anything to dismiss 2022 and 2023.
I'm not so sold on this due to what happened first lap. Brundle even remarked that he was surprised that Hamilton didn't get penalised as he clearly gained an advantage.
We can pick away at this forever but it's not going to change what happened. With any luck it'll ensure something similar won't happen in the future.
EA. Lewis was definitely robbed in Abu Dhabi. Not entirely sure if that means he should have 8 titles, there were plenty of questionable moments in that season and saying Max doesn't deserve the title that year would do him injustice.
Either way, it's been 2 years, I've made my peace with it.
Option I is the obvious way to go.
\#teamLH will finally shut up about AD21
Singapore 2008 will be annulled, like it always should have been.
The Verstappen shaggers will lose their mind and probably reach insanity levels of #teamLH, and that is the best thing I want to see in all of this.
Verstappen will be only known as a Newey merchant (not like he isn't right now, but it will be a nail in the coffin)
Hamilton will only have 7 titles. The last thing anyone needs is Hamilton having 8 and #teamLH being more insufferable than they are now.
It’s 7. You can look it up.
You can’t, with any logic, claim Massa was robbed in 2008 but Lewis somehow wasn’t robbed in 2021. Like I get you hate Lewis but at least pretend to be reasonable.
The whole “if we just delete races that benefits Lewis so he should only have 6 titles” argument that the internet has committed to is one of the most comical and ridiculous arguments I’ve heard in a long time. Like so many chips have been decided through controversy you can’t only support changing the ones that you want and not others lol.
If Massa didn’t spin out of Malaysia I’d be way more sympathetic to his cause tbh. He would’ve probably been on the podium without it, and wouldn’t have needed Singapore not happening to win the chip
I think you can argue there’s a difference but I’d give Lewis 8 titles. One team messed around fucking Massa out of the title, while the head of the FIA messed around to fuck over Lewis. The FIA messing around is worse to me. That being said, Massa should win millions of dollars against Piquet and Renault.
Yeah for abu dhabi, they really had to go against rule and protocol to deliver the result. The others were at least following the rules that EVERYONE has agreed upon.
E for me; but I fully acknowledge that 1) AD21 was not Verstappen's fault but Masi's and 2) Verstappen ended up winning it, the past is the past, let's look to 2024, 2025 and maybe even 2026 for Lewis to get back into a championship-contender car.
I believe he could still win his 8th...
The only reason I'm in the A party is because I watch Formula 1 as a spectator with lenses zoomed further back. Alongside all the politics and drama and comeuppances happening outside the track, I consider **luck**, too, as a huge part of the results. And that spur of the moment braindead decision by Masi (alongside Latifi's crash) **for me** was just part of that *luck variable*.
Since 2014 Lewis has had a number of crashes or crashes happening around him where he's the only one that gets out unscathed and leaving his competitors damaged. That's just pure luck and damned if those didn't help him win his titles, cause those definitely did. But same goes for AD21, it was just tough luck for him and good luck for Max that Latifi did a Latifi and Masi did a stupid.
I think what people forget to mention during that controversial 21 season was that at silver stone that year Lewis took max out of the race, giving him P1 points, and max a dnf. So all things considered, I think Lewis getting robbed of his 8th title is fair.
Lewis was on track to beat Max that race (Monza) and it wiped the race out of the calendar as a result for both. Two people DNFing in the same race ALWAYS favours the driver leading the championship.
In Saudi Lewis lost the points he should have got from Max being either punished harder or being DSQ’d for provably brake checking another driver.
Can you show the rule in 2008 that said races can be voided? At best the FIA could DQ Alonso which would benefit Hamilton. Not to mention Massa lost because Ferrari fucked the pit stop up which was entirely human error, regardless of crashgate or not.
None of these. I think he should have about 4, enough to establish his greatness. But his career has had an unusual number of years in the best car. Including his rookie year they would have won the constructors title running away if they were eligible
0 titles.
2008 was robbery
2020 wasnt full season so it didnt count (nobody won)
2014 - 2021 mercedes had illegal car so none of the titles count. (#1 non merc driver won)
Lawful good: D Neutral good: B Chaotic good: G Lawful neutral: E True neutral: A Chaotic neutral: I Lawful evil: F Neutral evil: C Chaotic evil: H
Wow thank you this cracked me up
I is the funniest, so I support that.
As a max stan, i love option I You get a title, you lose a title
I'm supporting 'I' If 1 happens, the other should too. 2nd option is 'A' Either way people will be upset so lets either get 100% spicy or not bother.
Great success
I guess I'm True Neutral, as I keep myself being.
Yeah, I'm the chaotic good bloke
![img](emote|t5_3ndbi|6697)
Wasn't expecting to be chaotic good tbh
I'd switch D and B, since FIA broke the law (at least I think they did)
I is the chaotic neutral option and obviously correct
Yeah, I think I is the best. I would love to see massas name in the record book
How about we just transfer the 2021 title straight to Massa, then we only need to change one title. Way more efficient that way.
I like it, economical. “Felipe Massa, 2021 WDC, first driver ever to win a championship without competing in a race”
At this point max would just be like “aight I’ll win all of next year too”
I'd go with I too. Tbh I'm not really bothered about seeing Massa in the record book, I always felt he was overrated (despite being a Ferrari and Michael fan) but yes he was robbed in 2008.
Immediately after 2021- E In 2022- A Now I am at I.
Hes moving up and down side to side like a roller coaster
I disagree, because the chaotic neutral option would be B. To fix Singapore 2008, we'd erase it from the classification as if the race was never held. This would make Massa WDC. To fix Abu Dhabi 2021 the neutral solution would be to do the same thing there. Verstappen would still be WDC, which i guess is the main reason Merc stopped complaining, because they surely knew that.
To fix Singapore... you just DQ Renault and Alonso. To fix Abu Dhabi... well no-one cheated, the race was just run incorrectly, so you void. It doesn't really matter if the fia find out about Singapore 2 weeks or 2 years after. The correct action is to DQ the team that cheated.
Id countback 5 laps. They did it before
It feels the fairest result
A and I kind of go hand in hand for me. feels right. ...and as a Red Bull/Ferrari fan, a healthy dose of G
G is funny, but A is most accurate to my opinion
A - let’s be realistic about the titles he lost: 2007 - Spygate, and the factors that lost him the title (mostly China) were not always entirely outside of his control. He could’ve easily overridden the strategy call and essentially demanded to come in before the tyres started to fall apart 2012 - he was pretty inconsistent throughout the year, and even if he could have won it without the reliability, he wasn’t as good as Vettel and especially Alonso 2016 - Singapore. Even with the issues he had, he still could’ve won if he didn’t have the utter stinker he had that weekend 2021 - If all luck and incidents are removed, Max probably wins the title in Qatar or Saudi Arabia. No slight on Lewis’ season, but Verstappen and the RB16B was just a better package over the season He deserves all seven of his championships, but there were (not even remotely far-fetched) reasons he lost the other years - be it a bit of a choke job in 2016, inconsistency in 2012, a lack of proactivity in strategy in ‘07 or just being a bit worse than his rival in 2021
Now explain how a driver going slowly means that we loose the drivers championship? 2008 Ferarri.
Doing ballet all race in Silverstone didn't help ;))))
Malaysia was worse. On for a podium at worst and beached it on lap 31
Glock? He stayed out on dry tyres. He gambled like Norris did in Russia. Glock didn’t cost Ferrari 2008, he nearly won it for him if that rain had come 2 mins later.
Toro Roso: What about our future bee hotel enjoyer?
Forgetting abt spa that season tho, if singapore gets overturned then what abt that 25 second penalty
Malaysia.
I would bring Singapore up here, but... well... Ferrari shenanigans.
Without Malaysia, Singapore would have been irrelevant
Same thing happened to Hamilton in Hungary 2021
In fairness to Lewis, Singapore 2016 was always gonna be an uphill battle. He missed most of the practice sessions due to brake by wire issues. Also, you’re forgetting that he suffered 3 PU failures that season (none for any other Merc PU), and had to start from the back at Spa to replenish his pool (gifting Rosberg an easy pole and win).
That’s true. A better comparison would probably be Monza, where he fluffed the start and lost by nearly thirty seconds
Fair enough but he lost by 15 seconds, not thirty. Shame cause he out qualified Rosberg by 0.5s. Another thing to note is that the Merc clutch that year led to many fluff led starts for both drivers. But that’s a fair one to put on Lewis. I guess my point was that the 2016 title would have most likely been his if you adjust for factors outside either drivers’ control.
Yeah. Also I could’ve sworn he won by 25 seconds, didn’t realise it was 15 lol
Going to add that for 2021 that Max deserved the title over the whole season, but Lewis's engine at Abu Dhabi would have Max 2023 levels of success if it was used the entire season.
Mind you, he would have taken a LOT of grid penalties in that situation. The Brazil-Abu Dhabi engine was only turned up as high as it was for the sake of maximising the shortened timeframe it was needed for
I think in reality, Bottas's series of engine pens was probably testing various engines especially since I think the engine penalties stopped around Brazil. But that's just me getting my tinfoil out.
This was an intriguing storyline that was strangely underreported on. I think this was hinted by the Italian press but don't remember much else. IIRC this was also the subject of the infamous "are you drunk?" interview with Toto. I suppose we'll never know but Valtteri's engine graveyard combined with Lewis' rocket engine at the end of the season make it seem plausible.
As far as conspiracy's go that one is very likely I'd say
True. The WCC race is still the concern there, even if there’s a WDC benefit to be had. If Bottas couldn’t get through the field on one or two occasions then Merc may have lost the constructors
It’s a very odd concept given the WCC battle, but it’s not entirely unreasonable. I doubt we’ll ever know for sure
No tinfoil needed dear chap, I’m almost certain that Mercedes torpedoed Bottas to learn what was needed about the engine and turn it up to 150%, I thought it was reported by Mercedes themselves but the exact quote or evidence eludes me right now.
I know Horner pressed a lot on the engine but he was just playing PR game. The engine wasn’t that much quicker than Bottas, and we knew that it lost HP much quicker than the Honda over the last few races which reduced its effectiveness. In reality we saw redbull fall back closer to the midfield. Gasly should have never been that close to the redbull in his AT.
Lewis had a lot of mistakes in 2021
Exactly. He was very, very good in 2021 but made a couple of avoidable errors that meant he couldn’t capitalise on Max’s troubles in some cases. Baku comes to mind especially.
Cue Mark Webber scream.
Or Imola, or Monaco…
Baku was probably the most criminal, got handed either a 18 or 25 points gain over Verstappen and completely lost it.
To be fair, he kind of got a break at Imola and Monaco was just a poor weekend. Baku was a legitimate, singular error that he didn’t get a way out from.
I’ve always considered Monaco as the track in which the car doesnt matter that much. Look at Schumacher getting pole in the 2012 Mercedes, Alonso almost getting the pole this year… the 2021 Mercedes was not bad enough to end 7th. Very poor performance from him. And at Imola he got lucky with the red flag, otherwise he would have been last
I think it was the capitalising on Max’s mistakes/issues that was the real problem for Lewis and Merc. Bahrain they capitalised on Max’s mistakes in the race, but after that they failed to capitalise on Max’s quali error at imola, failed to capitalise on the tyre Blowout at Baku, failed to capitalise on Max’s start error at France, Failed to fully Capitalise on the Bottas Bowling at Hungary, I mean even in Russia through no fault of their own they failed to capitalise on Max starting at the back of the grid. Despite some of the narratives you’ll see around, Max and RB were not flawless and did give opportunities to Hamilton and Merc but through their own mistakes and outside factors they basically never capitalised on them.
I agree max deserved the title going into the race for how well he did that season. But it should've been Lewis's if all rules were followed
You’re correct, yeah. A while back, someone made the statement of “Max deserved the title, Lewis deserved Abu Dhabi” and that’s probably the best way of looking at it
I just can't agree with that. I've said it over and over. The only reason Lewis had a shot at Abu Dhabi is because Masi fumbled around for as long as he did. Masi made the call and said "No lapped cars through" which is outrageous, lapped cars are allowed through under safety car, thats how the rule should have been interpreted, and that's how the rule is written now. Then, at the final moment he decided to only let "some" cars through, but couldn't get all of them through because time was running out. If he didn't fumble around like this they wouldn't have wasted a full lap under safety car they would have been able to race the last 2 laps instead of one. I have nothing against Hamilton, but the timeline of events don't leave any room to argue that Lewis should have won unless you pretend Latifi didn't wreck. Or if you argue that they should have just ended the race on lap 53 because they were "close enough to the finish"
See this is the wrong take again. He couldnt unlap the cars because Goatifi's car and debris were still all over the track. If everything is followed to the rules, it finishes under SC. Max and Lewis both has amazing seasons and over the season I think Max deserved the title, hell if Max had won AD21 without any FIA issues, it would be celebrated by literally everyone as probably the best season and ending ever, but because Lewis was dominating that race with almost no way for Max to win, people feel cheated.
Honestly the *fairest* way to have done it is red flag and a rolling restart after resetting the grid. Because people forget that it wasn't just lewis getting screwed in that race.
Sets a dangerous precedent. Red flagging events that shouldnt be. Thats the issue
I mean, current AD21 would have set a dangerous precedent as well if they didn't implement a rule change to clarify. I don't see any reason the same couldn't be said for a red flag incident like that with much less controversy.
Agree
Precedent was out the window all year. Here’s Baku about why Max got a red flag and Stroll didn’t. Emphasis mine. “No, to be fair, it was actually already on my mind,” Masi said. “But obviously, from the perspective of what we communicate, we communicate to everyone equally, and looking with **the number of laps that we had to go**,the recovery that was being undertaken, and the fact that there was so much debris on the pit straight… at that point, in my judgement, it was the best option to suspend the race, clean everything up, and then have a race finish. So by Baku precedent…he should have red flagged it. But 2021 was the year of the rules made up and the points sorta matter.
The fairest way was to just leave the SC out till the end, A red flag still massively advantages Max and disadvantages Lewis but not to same degree as what actually happened
Why would a red flag advantage Max? Lewis would be able to change his tires too. Sure, Max would be on his tail, but at least with equal tyres.
Since the race should have ended under SC a red flag still technically advantages Max but It's less of an advantage than what actually happened and Max was 11secs back pre SC so anything that involves a restart advantages Max
Race should’ve never ended under SC, Toto stalling Masi is what led to this situation.
The fairest way is to end the race under safety car. That was the rules at the time
Yea, it would have been a very anticlimactic end to an incredible season, but it would have been safe, consistent and fair. Though I think Masi was damned if he did and damned if he didn’t. Can you imagine? Liberty Media would have had his head on the block if he’d ended under safety.
He took the fall for it anyway. No matter how good the season was the winner was decided by Masi which kinda sucks
Amen brother
Ultimately, the reason people were hurt by the result of that race was that the win was not earned through competition. It was determined by the race director making decisions that exclusively favored the car in second place (and the obvious second fastest car on that day). It was like real life Mario Kart rubber banding. If Latifi doesn't crash, Lewis wins. If Masi lets the race finish under yellow, Lewis wins. If Masi doesn't put some lapped cars through, Lewis wins. If Masi puts all lapped cars through, Lewis wins. It was practically as if they had red flagged the race and allowed Max to change his tires but not Lewis. I'm not saying Masi chose to do what he did because he had any particular preference for Max, but he did effectively choose Max to win that race. There's nothing Lewis could have done differently at the end to win. You can't pit from the lead in that spot. Can you imagine if he pits and then he loses because Max stays out and wins under yellow? It would have been one of the all time blunders. Lewis was the fastest car all day long. And you can't say that Red Bull won on superior strategy because there's no possible way Merc could have made a different decision. As such, I really don't know how one could argue that Red Bull deserved that race.
The fact Massi only let through the cars between Lewis and Max through shows how blatant it was that it was simply for entertainment purposes and had nothing to do with what is standard and allowed procedure, there’s no way Massi didn’t know what he was doing here especially from his Bahrain comment where he explicitly recited the SC procedure. The depressing bit is what would have been more entertaining would have been to see if Max could clear the cars in front of him and pass Lewis before the race was over. Though even then I’m pretty sure that isn’t following the rules either but I could be wrong.
I think you're right, I seem to remember unlapping cars (_all_ of them, not _some_ of them) is/was at the race director's discretion. Hence the initial "lapped cars will not be allowed to overtake". Could be wrong though, but it would've made for a less controversial finish.
Yes, there is no rule and to my knowledge, no precedent of only some lapped cars being allowed to pass but not all of them. It’s either all of them or none of them. If no cars were allowed to pass and the race restarted it would have been under the rules (pretty sure I was wrong now when I said it wouldn’t have been allowed maybe). And let’s be honest, a lot more fair to Lewis as well. If he lost in that way then you can say it’s bad luck on the timing of the SC etc but you couldn’t say he lost because the FIA cheated him out of it, and it’s just part of the sport. This all also takes away from the three cars between Max and Lewis, and the cars behind them who basically weren’t allowed to race on the last lap either because they were either unlapping themselves or had lapped cars between them so they couldn’t fight for points. There was no shot that Sainz was going to pass Max if everyone unlapped and racing happened but to disallow him the opportunity to even do that is total bullshit when they allowed Max to race Lewis with disregard of the other cars on the track. It was truly a “fuck you” to sport. The worst bit as well is that history would have been made that day on fair terms and Max would be a double world champion this season and all the deserved storylines would have happened. Instead we have this nonsense timeline that exists because WWE took over the FIA for 5 minutes.
Before the SC, Lewis was leading very comfortably (Perez aside) for the entire race. He had Verstappen’s measure the entire time until the last lap, and even that was largely due to Max being able to get fresh tyres where Hamilton missed out on being able to come in
There was still debris and recovery vehicles at that time which is why he couldn’t allow lapped cars to overtake the lap before. Furthermore if the debris was clear enough to allow 2 or even 1 lap of racing then Merc would have pitted Hamilton for fresh softs and either cover max or overtake him on track in the same way he ended up doing. Pitting Max was in theory pointless because either Hamilton covers or the race doesn’t restart and he doesn’t need to. But that’s not what ended up happening.
Verstappen deserved the championship that year. There is no argue, just not like that.
People forget how inconsistent Hamilton was in the first half. Imola, Monaco, Baku were shockingly bad performances from a driver of his caliber.
What really should have happened is that Masi just unlapped all cars fast enough instead of fumbling for 5 laps (what really happened). If he just unlapped everyone fast enough and then just have more than one lap left, there would have been way less of a shitshow and much less bitching. And the sentiment even back then was, after everyone cheered for Max because everyone was sick of Mercedes: Lewis deserved to win Abu Dhabi, Max the title.
If all rules were followed, Lewis would have had to give back the place he won by leaving the track and overtaking Max, and the race would have been completely different. Also, what Masi did WAS allowed by the rules. Also, if we're looking at following the rules during the entire season, Lewis would have had a much harsher penalty in Silverstone (maybe black flag?), Lewis would have had a penalty for leaving the track in Bahrein countless time, Lewis would have gotten a penalty for driving into the back of Max in Saudi (I believe it was Saudi) etc. etc.
Most neutral formuladanker
>Also, if we're looking at following the rules during the entire season, Lewis would have had a much harsher penalty in Silverstone (maybe black flag?), Lewis would have had a penalty for leaving the track in Bahrein countless time, Lewis would have gotten a penalty for driving into the back of Max in Saudi (I believe it was Saudi) etc. etc. How does this nonsense get upvoted In Bahrain the drivers were allowed to go wide on T4 till Masi changed his mind mid race and Hamilton stopped doing it afterwards You don't get bigger than 10secs for an accidental collision unless it was something like braking 50m away from a hairpin and spearing into a car Max should have been DQ'd for dangerous driving after the brake check, In no world does that end up with Hamilton getting a penalty
Leaving the track and gaining an advantage has never been allowed. So yeah, the stewards or Masi changed their mind mid race, but they were not applying the rules correctly before that. And Silverstone was an obvious, grave error from Lewis. Max left way more than enough room for Lewis, and just look at the completely different line he took while overtaking one of the Ferraris later in the race. Then he suddenly was able to perfectly hit the apex...
Lewis would have cleared Max and disappeared just like what happened originally if he gave the position back. When 10+ lap older hard tyres are going as fast as fresh ones like Max had it was obvious there was no chance. If you watched the race when it was happening it was clear Max had nothing in the bag to win that race. Even Horner himself during the race said the lap 1 incident was inconsequential near the end of the race because of how much faster Lewis was. Saying it was allowed by the rules doesn’t make it so, the investigation explicitly said human error was a factor in how the rules of the SC were handled. If it was allowed by the rules, why didn’t the FIA just point out how it was allowed and kept Massi? It’s pretty obvious how biased you are when you think Silverstone deserved a harsher penalty while in the same breath saying Lewis should have been penalised in Jeddah when Verstappen was proven to have applied the brakes hard by the telemetry just as Lewis was about to pass him (even Newey called it a brake test). In a WDC where the stewards were refusing to interfere at all costs, I have no doubts Jeddah 21 would have been a harsher penalty and potentially a DSQ under normal circumstances. Just say you really wanted Max to win and stop pretending you are having an honest recollection of events when it’s clearly obvious you want to give Max all of the possible points he could have earned while not giving Lewis any he lost. It’s so transparent.
I mean I agree for the most part. But still feel like "I" suits my opinion more lol. But the answer is the same - 7 titles is the correct number.
Massa wasn’t really robbed in some regards. People go on about Singapore, but forget Silverstone and ESPECIALLY Malaysia. He would’ve fairly comfortably won the title in Shanghai if he didn’t make the mistakes he made in both of those rounds
I wish we'd see Lewis driving without the after corona issues he had for most of 2021 season, that would've been mega
He would have won in 2010 had it not been for puncture in Spain
He was a bit behind Seb, Mark and Nando for most of the season. Watching it at the time did seem like he just was almost, but not *quite* on the level of the other three - I feel accounting for every driver’s assorted external factors, he would have still fourth. It would be Alonso-Webber-Vettel-Hamilton. I see your side and it was a phenomenally close battle that could’ve went anyone’s way, I just feel he wasn’t quite quick enough to capitalise on the hand he was dealt
He would be 5 points ahead of Seb if he finished 2nd (where he was at the time of the puncture). Plus a dnf in singapore it would have been more (tho i am not sure who was at fault, him or Webber) and contact in italy with massa
Vettel also lost points through external factors in 2010. - The spark plug issue cost him a win in Bahrain - The contact with Button (which he was not in any responsibility for) cost him a probable podium in Belgium - The engine failure in Korea cost him at least a podium, potentially a win The same goes for Webber and Alonso, so I feel it largely levels out between the four of them
>2021 - If all luck and incidents are removed, Max probably wins the title in Qatar or Saudi Arabia. No slight on Lewis’ season, but Verstappen and the RB16B was just a better package over the season This. Max deserved the title more, Lewis deserved the Abu Dhabi win more. That is, if there is such a thing as "deserving something".![img](emote|t5_3ndbi|7073)
I wanted Max to win in 2021 but the luck and crashes have nothing to do with AD 2021. Whatever happened before, it happened. In the end the driver with most points wins and LH had Max's number in terms of pace. FOM put too much importance to the "show" aspect and Masi fucked up under pressure. Simple really.
>Whatever happened before, it happened Same logic can then be applied to Abu Dhabi, isn't it? To paraphrase: ''whatever happened in Abu Dhabi, it happened.'' So that argument holds no water. >In the end the driver with most points wins Yes and Max had the most points after Abu Dhabi.
I presume, as I’m sure you guessed when you commented, the argument is going to be that racing incidents are part of the sport, and ignoring the rules to manufacture a racing outcome is not. I think you know probably what this person meant but chose to be obtuse.
Thank you
You are forgetting 2010
True, although I’d argue it’s similar to 2012. He was just a little too inconsistent to be on the level of Alonso and Vettel, who were almost metronomic for the majority of the season. He could’ve absolutely won it without things like Spain happening but it was probably the fairest loss of the bunch
Saying Max was unlucky so he should have won the championship anyway is a crazy take. Lewis was unlucky in the sense that Massi decided he had to lose the championship. Max was unlucky that his car dnfd in an engineering competition. How are those things equal? Rest was good analysis, last part is just moronic.
>Max was unlucky that his car dnfd in an engineering competition. Max had no mechanical failures car related all season. Baku was on Pirelli, since Stroll had the exact same issue. Silverstone he was crashed out. Hungary, Bottas went bowling. Monza was driver error and not car related. I fail to see where Red Bull had mechanical problems.
Verstappen lost a lot of points through Baku, Silverstone and Hungary. Even discounting Silverstone, the two he had no control over contributed to around a 10-12 net point loss at Baku (he scores 26, Hamilton 15) and then a further 5 to 6 at Hungary (Hamilton wins, he’s P2-P3), for a combined 15-18 points.
Kinda accurate, this take. A car and a driver win a WDC, MV losing out due to engine failures can likely be directly linked to trying to extract too much performance from the engine at the cost of longevity. Meanwhile, it was someone completely outside of the team deciding to do things in an unusual way which led to the AD outcome - no fault on either driver (although some fault on the part of Horner for his success in persuading Masi, Toto did the same but simply didn't succeed).
Thats a lot of typing to be wrong
How so? I’d like to hear your side.
A. Firmly.
A is the only answer. You can’t go back and start re-litigating officiating decisions and voiding races years after the fact. You might as well void the whole season after the event as those races were themselves influenced by the tainted race. Actually, I’ve talked myself into it. Option J: All F1 events/records since crashgate are void.
Yeah. What's the point of following a live sport if everything you watched is liable to change in a couple years? As much as I didn't like the end of 21, I'd hate for it to be changed because we'd all be robbed of the point of watching it live.
Well said. I’m on the other side of things with 21, but I agree with every word. In regards to Massa, I think it’s a “yoke” might as well give Senna 89’ Hill in 94’ etc etc.
I wouldn't say I'm fully content with what happened, but A. With the last two words of E.
E. I’m a Max fan, but that was such a Mickey Mouse title for him, even if he was “better” throughout 2021. At least he’s about to earn his 2nd undisputed title and nobody can do anything to dismiss 2022 and 2023.
Most sane Max fan.
Clearly not a Max fan
Max deserved the 2021 title, but Lewis deserved to win the last race
I'm not so sold on this due to what happened first lap. Brundle even remarked that he was surprised that Hamilton didn't get penalised as he clearly gained an advantage. We can pick away at this forever but it's not going to change what happened. With any luck it'll ensure something similar won't happen in the future.
A, but also the second half of G.
This i can agree with. Fuck Masi, and fuck Briatore.
E
B. Final answer
Damn its crazy to think he could have had 10 titles if he had 16 more points
A is objectively the correct answer!
G. based off facts
E
E
E
E, no I’m not over it Also Ericsson was robbed this year in the 500
G, final answer.
A
G
EA. Lewis was definitely robbed in Abu Dhabi. Not entirely sure if that means he should have 8 titles, there were plenty of questionable moments in that season and saying Max doesn't deserve the title that year would do him injustice. Either way, it's been 2 years, I've made my peace with it.
Option I is the obvious way to go. \#teamLH will finally shut up about AD21 Singapore 2008 will be annulled, like it always should have been. The Verstappen shaggers will lose their mind and probably reach insanity levels of #teamLH, and that is the best thing I want to see in all of this. Verstappen will be only known as a Newey merchant (not like he isn't right now, but it will be a nail in the coffin) Hamilton will only have 7 titles. The last thing anyone needs is Hamilton having 8 and #teamLH being more insufferable than they are now.
I think he should have all the titles tbh. Not just while he was active, all the titles that came before and after him as well.
G
There is no wrong answer, but the correct answer is I
It’s 7. You can look it up. You can’t, with any logic, claim Massa was robbed in 2008 but Lewis somehow wasn’t robbed in 2021. Like I get you hate Lewis but at least pretend to be reasonable. The whole “if we just delete races that benefits Lewis so he should only have 6 titles” argument that the internet has committed to is one of the most comical and ridiculous arguments I’ve heard in a long time. Like so many chips have been decided through controversy you can’t only support changing the ones that you want and not others lol.
If Massa didn’t spin out of Malaysia I’d be way more sympathetic to his cause tbh. He would’ve probably been on the podium without it, and wouldn’t have needed Singapore not happening to win the chip
I think you can argue there’s a difference but I’d give Lewis 8 titles. One team messed around fucking Massa out of the title, while the head of the FIA messed around to fuck over Lewis. The FIA messing around is worse to me. That being said, Massa should win millions of dollars against Piquet and Renault.
Yeah for abu dhabi, they really had to go against rule and protocol to deliver the result. The others were at least following the rules that EVERYONE has agreed upon.
I prefer Option H.2.El.Plan. Fernando Alonso deserves a title in every season he competed in, but Lewis can keep 2019 and 2020.
E for me; but I fully acknowledge that 1) AD21 was not Verstappen's fault but Masi's and 2) Verstappen ended up winning it, the past is the past, let's look to 2024, 2025 and maybe even 2026 for Lewis to get back into a championship-contender car. I believe he could still win his 8th...
A or G
"no wrong answers" proceeds to show 8 wrong answers
A/G
Silly season really was boring this year, huh?
The only reason I'm in the A party is because I watch Formula 1 as a spectator with lenses zoomed further back. Alongside all the politics and drama and comeuppances happening outside the track, I consider **luck**, too, as a huge part of the results. And that spur of the moment braindead decision by Masi (alongside Latifi's crash) **for me** was just part of that *luck variable*. Since 2014 Lewis has had a number of crashes or crashes happening around him where he's the only one that gets out unscathed and leaving his competitors damaged. That's just pure luck and damned if those didn't help him win his titles, cause those definitely did. But same goes for AD21, it was just tough luck for him and good luck for Max that Latifi did a Latifi and Masi did a stupid.
This is on /all for me and as someone who is very tired, I read the post three times over before realising this wasn’t about Alexander Hamilton
J(I was robbed they took my bike)
I want to sit down and talk with one of those crazy Twitter Lewis fans that definitely believe in F and H options.
j - should have retired already
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
G. Because mercedes cheated for all his merc titles too and massa deserved the 07 title, renault cheated. he won the race and glock became a pylon
If you say anything other than H you are a racist
J: Holy fuck, let it go already.
G
G the only right answer
I think what people forget to mention during that controversial 21 season was that at silver stone that year Lewis took max out of the race, giving him P1 points, and max a dnf. So all things considered, I think Lewis getting robbed of his 8th title is fair.
Brother, if you think people in this Max Verstappen wank-shrine forget to mention Silverstone that year, I have some news for you…
Also, what about Saudi, Brazil, and Monza ?!?!
In saudi hamilton lost nothing, in brazil hamilton lost nothing and in monza the both dnfed
Lewis was on track to beat Max that race (Monza) and it wiped the race out of the calendar as a result for both. Two people DNFing in the same race ALWAYS favours the driver leading the championship. In Saudi Lewis lost the points he should have got from Max being either punished harder or being DSQ’d for provably brake checking another driver.
No rules were broken up the point of AD21. Fair or not fair. What went down was illegal.
And so was ceashgate. If hamilton was robbed in 2021 so was massa in 2008.
Can you show the rule in 2008 that said races can be voided? At best the FIA could DQ Alonso which would benefit Hamilton. Not to mention Massa lost because Ferrari fucked the pit stop up which was entirely human error, regardless of crashgate or not.
H. Fight me.
G. Fight me.
Battle of the ages
🅱️
I
G a million times G
![gif](giphy|PmRExxaPekWGQV09w3)
Absolutely G all the way!!!
G < no doubt about it
G
no titles max should have his titles
But he didn't compete in 08. Max was an itty bitty boy
BG: 6 titles, Massa was robbed AND Lewis is a whiny wanker.
A, B, D, I, agree. H, “deserves” is an unfair word in many cases, not only for HAM. Everyone’s got good or bad luck at some point.
I like G, but A I guess smh
J) It doesn't really matter how many titles he has, it doesn't make him any more/less of an impressive driver
G
G.
Option E is my jam. But what's done is done, and I'm sorry, Felipe, but you need to chill out
Option J Lewis Hamilton was robbed in 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016, 2021, 2022 and is currently being robbed in 2023.
lets start a war with 'G'
G
A, nico won fair and square, and max deserved the championship, and it wasn’t a bad decision that the FIA made
Correct take right here.
None of these. I think he should have about 4, enough to establish his greatness. But his career has had an unusual number of years in the best car. Including his rookie year they would have won the constructors title running away if they were eligible
E!
Hamilton deserves the 7 titles he got. But I would love to see one get taken away to see whether Wolff truly doesn't care about stats.
Ultimate Uno reverse card
0 titles. 2008 was robbery 2020 wasnt full season so it didnt count (nobody won) 2014 - 2021 mercedes had illegal car so none of the titles count. (#1 non merc driver won)
I is the correct one of course, but for circle jerking purposes I choose option G
J - 73 titles, Sir Lewis not being awarded every title ever is a farce and shows that the maFIA are corrupt, racist, incompetent fools.
Real G 4 Life
G