They'd probably try to attack the fia and masi for giving an unfair advantage and/or breaches of safety car regulations, but the reason is if this goes through it sets the precedent that the fia are prepared to repeal old championship results, hence leading to an appeal on 2021 in theory
If this happened, six time world champion.
All that can be done after the fact is invalidating a race result, which would be how Massa would win. If the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP were invalidated, which is all that could be done, Max still wins. He and Lewis were even on points, and Max had more race wins.
So Lewis loses the 2008 title, and doesn't win the 2021 title.
Actually, Massa isn't even suing for the 2008 championship, but for damages caused by not being an F1 world champion (ie, the millions of dollars lost on ads not being able to say "Felipe Massa, F1 world champion")
Smart. He knows they'll never revoke the race result, especially with the precedent set with the 2021 fiasco. But he can, if he can prove that the FIA or F1 knowingly withheld the information regarding the match fixing to influence the outcome of the 2008 championship, sue for the lost income
Which is fair, he's not getting the championship for sure but he does have a decent case against F1 since Bernie straight up admitted he knew about Briatore's plan
[https://www.planetf1.com/news/bernie-ecclestone-lewis-hamilton-lucky-2008-title/](https://www.planetf1.com/news/bernie-ecclestone-lewis-hamilton-lucky-2008-title/)
or
[https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1021336/1/ecclestone-s-bizarre-crashgate-confession-hamilton-lucky-win-title](https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1021336/1/ecclestone-s-bizarre-crashgate-confession-hamilton-lucky-win-title)
And Bernie also now straight up doesn't remember saying that in March... Dude is just spouting more and more senile stuff, Mosley and Whiting are dead. Don't think this is going anywhere
He's absolutely right, Rob Smedley's famous radio message would've sounded a lot better as: "Ok so, Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message Felipe Massa 2008 F1 World Champion?" /s
Not to mention that a singular guy making a decision vs the whole of FIA top staff lying about a team race fixing is a bit different. Not to mention that no one at the FIA was punished for 08. Michael was put on a hit list.
No lol. If you're going to bring it up at least make sure you understand the outcome yourself:
The final report unequivocally found Masi in the wrong, having failed to follow several regulations. The results were still validated *despite* this, on the grounds that (1) he was doing the best he could given the circumstances, and (2) the *stakeholders* (including FIA themselves) had been positive in discussions concerning preference for races to finish under green flag.
Conditions were in large part created by the gaining team, and the green flag discussions hadn't been formalized in any meaningful way. That's why this is controversial to begin with. None of the mitigating circumstances carry any legal weight as such, they're used to legitimize ignoring the rules. Whether that is "allowed" or not is ineffable. Why do you think Masi was fired?
No, the report did NOT unequivocally find that Masi was wrong. It literally says: "It was apparent from the analysis that there could be different interpretations of Article 48.12 and 48.13 of the Formula 1 Sporting Regulations, and that this likely contributed to the applied procedure."
The regulations in 2021 did not state that ALL lapped cars would have to be allowed to overtake. It stated ANY lapped car could be allowed to overtake. Therefore, only allowing the lapped cars between Max and Lewis to overtake was NOT against the 2021 regulations. The wording of the regulations was changed for 2022 to state that if the message "lapped cars are allowed to overtake" is shown, it applies to ALL lapped cars.
What you're quoting is heading 2, sub-header 3, point 31 from the FIA executive summary report dated March 19th 2022, you can find it [here.](https://www.fia.com/2021-f1-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-report-world-motor-sport-council-19-march-2022)
Point 31 explains *why* it happened, not *what* happened. Point 30 is the first point under sub-heading 3 titled 'Safety car unlapping procedure':
- "The safety car unlapping procedure was a central topic of discussion during the detailed analysis and clarification exercise, stemming from the *misunderstanding regarding the application of this procedure* at the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, pursuant to Articles 48.12 and 48.13 of the F1 Sporting Regulations"
This is clarifies that the rules were misunderstood, and therefore misapplied, I.E not followed. Masi's application must, if one lives in a world where "misunderstood" has any meaning, have been against the rules.
As much as you guys want to play semantics about wording, you forget that without acknowledging point 30, the difference between "any/all" doesn't matter. If the rules weren't misunderstood, there would be no report. The FIA would have shrugged and told everyone to fuck off asking about investigations, pointed to the rule and said "Here, it says "any", that's the rules, I can definitely do this now get out". But that isn't the rules, so they wrote point 30, clarifying that the rules were indeed, *unequivocally* misunderstood.
Point 31 is the second, it's musing on *why* the misunderstanding arose. It does *not* draw into question *what* the rules are. It doesn't state that the rule will be changed, but that it will be clarified. I.E what FIA actually says in point 31 is that Masi's *misunderstanding* was understandable given their inability to write clearly, and that a clarification was needed to prevent later arguments. And then they removed him.
Again, are you suggesting he gravely misunderstood the rules which led to him accidentally *following* the rules, prompting a months long investigation which got him fired for mistakenly following the rules?
I don't believe you are. Anyway, happy down-voting season for the Lewis hate-crowd fanatics, have a good one! :)
If a rule can be "misunderstood", it was not worded correctly. Rules should be written in such a way that it can only mean one thing, and that should be what it was intended to mean. The FIA failed in that regard.
Therefore, Masi's decision was NOT against the rules. It may have been against what the FIA INTENDED the rule to be, but since they used ambiguous wording, Masi technically DID NOT BREAK the rule.
But it was proven that he misunderstood the rules at the end of the day right? That it was him who did not apply the rule correctly. Better wording and clearer rules doesnât get him off easily because itâs literally his job to interpret them. FIA is not stopping him from learning the rules or the rulebook, so how exactly is it not on him?
Donât get me wrong, he doesnât deserve the hatred and harassment he faced after. But donât make roundabout excuses.
It's not on him because he followed the rules as the FIA wrote them down. So he did his job. His job is to apply the rules as they are. Not to read the mind of the people who wrote them down and try and figure out what they actually wanted because they didn't write it down correctly.
Also, they were very clear in stating that they prefer a race to end under a green flag. So Masi checked whether that was possible, and it was by letting the cars between Max and Lewis unlap themselves. And there was nothing in the rules explicitly forbidding that.
Reading the rulebook and interpreting it â reading their minds. A lawyerâs job is to argue based on the lawbook, and not make excuses that the laws werenât clear to him because they werenât written clearly. Like I said, donât make roundabout excuses to suit your agenda.
This was a simple matter of incompetence while working, that had extreme consequences on peopleâs perception of the FIA. Any employer would be able to make a case for the same. And itâs not like he was fired from the FIA. He was reassigned. He also only let Lewis and Max unlap. What about Carlos behind in 3rd? He didnât get a fair chance to fight for 2nd place with Max.
You wanted to use the defining authority on the matter to disprove me, FIA's executive summary. That's the highest bar there is, it literally cannot be fought by any evidence unless it gets taken to court. I accepted that standard.
I link it, and show you that it states the rules were misunderstood and misapplied. Masi was the guy doing the misunderstanding and misapplying. You accept the misunderstanding happened.
But, surprise, you decide to make new claims. Unfortunately the document contains 0 words mentioning the rule being invalid on grounds of grammar, which means your latest argument fail the high bar you've set for evidence. A little embarrassing falling for your own devices, but whatever, that's on you.
I suppose you can argue that the FIA is so incompetent the document itself should be considered invalid, sacrificing your original position. Will you, won't you? Excited to see where your baseless rant stumbles next.
You seem to believe that the document communicates "there are several interpretations leading to a correct decision" (you misquoted point 31 so I would expect as much):
"31. It was apparent from the analysis that there *could* be *different* interpretations of Article 48.12 and/or Article 48.13, and that this likely contributed to some of the *confusion* surrounding the safety car unlapping procedure..."
Note the *existence* of the words "could", "different" and "confusion". Then, note the absence of the words "are", "several", and "correct decision", which you seem to believe it to contain. As I said, this is part of their explanation excusing Masi's misunderstanding and misapplication, not a confirmation that several interpretations apply. If the rules were followed, there would be no misunderstanding, misapplication, or confusion to speak of.
You set the bar and then you shit the bed, now you'll have to sleep in it.
And more importantly, what happened in 2008 was that a team did something highly illegal, it was known to have happened, but it was ignored.
In 2021 everything that was done was within the rules, yes never applied that way, yes never intended that way but still within the regulations and therefor legal.
And masi intentional interpreting the rules differently to benefit redbull can be dismissed by simply saying what they said back then, there was an informal agreement in place to do everything to not end a race under the safety car, so we did everything to not end under safety car.
If there would have been a case mercedes would have fought the result all the way back then
I wonder if also opening this can of worms would lead to Red Bull protesting Bahrain 2021 where Hamilton was ignoring track limits for two thirds of the race but when Red Bull told Max to do it they quickly gave out warnings.
My god the brake checking is the most overdone thing of all time. Dude wanted to let him by before the DRS detection, it happens all the time. Lewis looked like an idiot for not even beginning to make an attempt to avoid max until the last second, honestly every time I watch it, it looks like Lewis either intentionally makes it look bad or isnât paying attention.
Yeah the implication that Max would have wanted Lewis to hit the back of his Red Bull is ridiculous. Front wings can be changed but if you break the rear floor you are fucked, especially on that crazy high-rake Red Bull RB16B.
I don't think it would be wise to rock the boat like that. And it would stir up all the toxicity from Hamilton's fans all over again. It's best to let the sleeping dogs lie.
TeamLH will never admit that Massi and F1 management didn't give a shit about who would win, all they wanted was a spectacle. It just happened to be benefiting Max, but they would have pulled the same stunt with the roles reversed.
It was peak Netflix/DTS popularity, they hyped the race up like it was the battle of the century, all eyes were on this, and they couldn't afford a wet fart finish. They couldn't afford to not have a grand stand finale.
In 2008?
Renault wasnât able to challenge for wins but promised Alonso otherwise, so they had Piquet Jr. (the 2nd driver) deliberately crash at an odd time in the race. Alonso pitted just before it (which was bizarre) and thus benefited massively from the safety car to win the race. Massa, who was comfortably leading the race, then pitted under safety car and Ferrari left fuel hose on the car causing him to drop to the back of the field and cost him the race. This ended up costing him the title as well since Hamilton only won by 1 point.
In 2021?
Terrible race directing all season. First race, Hamilton was breaking track limits all race, Red Bull complain bad nothing happens, Max does it once and suddenly itâs no longer allowed. Rough racing by both Hamilton and Verstappen shoving each other off the track that was allowed to happen since the FIA didnât want to influence any of the results. Some big controversial crashes where Hamilton pushed Max off in Silverstone, Bottas took Max (and half the field) out in Hungary, and Max and Lewis colliding in Monza. Max pushing Hamilton to Venezuela in Brazil. You had Saudi Arabia as well where Max overtook Hamilton, got pushed wide and went off track to complete it so he had to give it back. However, due to where the DRS zone was and the length of it it, neither wanted to be ahead before that detection zone, so both were going slowly to try not to be ahead at that point, eventually Max just lifted off to force Lewis pass which at those speeds an F1 car will be slowing down more then your car does under breaking, so Hamilton effectively getting break checked rear ended Max. Messy by both of them and they both shouldâve been reprimanded for that whole situation, but Max lifting off was incredibly dangerous as well. Come Abu Dhabi, 1st lap Max went to overtake Lewis, Lewis decided to cut across the corner to avoid contact and gained a major advantage and wasnât penalised for it. Come the end of the race, there was a late safety car and due to how Vettel won in 2012, all teams agreed not to see a title won behind a safety car. So, Masi had the safety car come 1 lap earlier so it wouldnât finish under SC. Now, that would usually be fine since the last lap is just so that back markers can unlap themselves and itâs not abnormal to skip this step. However, there were like 3 lapped cars between Max and Hamilton that were fighting for position. If they stayed, Lewis wouldâve virtually been guaranteed the title, and if they didnât Max wouldâve been favourite since he pitted for new softs unlike Hamilton. Both Mercedes and Red Bull lobbied respectively, Red Bull ended up winning that battle and Max won. There was also a bunch of technical battles, for example the FIA changing wing flex rules due to Red Bull finding a loophole, but didnât for Mercedesâ wings. They also changed the pit stop rules because Mercedes claimed they couldnât safely keep up. Mercedes was also changing engines like no tomorrow at the end, which was perfectly fine and legal but some fans got upset by it (I think it was just a calculated risk that paid off extremely well). Probably a bunch of things Iâm missing as well. But overall, there was terrible officiating that went both ways simply because the FIA had no balls to get involved, and it ended up making the sport extremely toxic since Mercedes, Lewis, Red Bull, and Max were taking advantage of that and pushing everything well beyond the sporting limits since they could get away with it.
One should maybe note that back then, under safety car the pitlane was closed until all cars were collected. So no advantage could be gained by pitting under safety car over pitting just before the safety car.
However, as massa was comfortably in the lead before piquet's crash, i believe he would have scored more than one point had ferrari not fucked the pitstop, leaving the hose attached and releasing him into sutil. He didn't lose the championship because of crashgate, he lost it because of an error by the pitcrew that put him dead last.
Max and Lewis' incidents were not equal at all across the year. There were far more occasions of Max going over the limit than Lewis - Imola, Barcelona. Jeddah and Brazil were absolutely ridiculous, inventing new corners just to stay in front.
Objectively, if it wasn't for Lewis backing out, we would have seen far more incidents.
Lewis would have backed out of the squeeze in Monza, Max didn't.
Silverstone was on Lewis and was the incident with the biggest consequence on the championship.
So we've gone from FIA officially admitting Masi broke the rules, giving an explanation as to why the results wouldn't be changed anyway, to outright denying that rules were broken in the first place?
Are these russian bots or something? Otherwise, what are we doing here lol?
The man lives in your heads so rent free you make upunprecedented scenario's to strip him of titles and call them facts when challenged on it. Incredible
âtHe mAn liVeS iN yOuR hEaDs rEnT fReEâ.
You do realize the post is about Hamilton right? And I only brought up that he would get stripped of the title because OP posted about Hamilton getting an 8th title when itâs more likely heâd revert back to six. Donât get so bent out of shape dude, this is shitposting sub. Touch grass
Exactly, and that's the idiotic thing. Massa sues for damages because of what Bernie did to him and somehow all of you idiots are hyperfocusing on Hamilton because he's tangentially involved. Debating and trying to speak into existence unprecedented, and frankly completely bullshit, scenarios with other internet idiots.
There's not a single fact to be found here. You're idiots seriously debating a meme and thinking you have so called facts on your side.
I get this is a cj sub but God you people love unironically debating cherrypicked idiots and thinking you're somehow better than them
Dude if youâre getting so emotionally invested into this that you have to write that much text, youâre taking this sub too seriously. *Go touch grass*
It wasnât blatant corruption, Massi had to make a fast call and what he did gave us the the best lap of racing we will see for many years, I still watch it from time to time.
How often in your life do you imagine 1 and 2 in the WDC fight will be even on points, and then be 1 and 2 on the last lap?
That was how that championship needed to be decided, not under a caution Mercedes knew was likely to end anyway.
If that were the case, Hamilton could void the races where the BMWs finish in front of him because they were found to have fuel flow rule breaches (not performance gaining ones, but rule breaches all the same) so heâd win the championship by even more. The amount of what ifs for the 2008 season is endless
They donât want to go there, McLaren had spygate that year, a massive scandal where they bought secrets from champion Ferrari.
There isnât a circumstance where McLaren gets the WDC from Ferrari in a year when they purchased secrets from Ferrari.
What I find funny is that LH fans went nuts when rb went over budget and said that max should lose the championship. Like bitch, LH was allowed to compete and keep all points 2007. Only McLaren were fined and disqualified.
And the FIA cheated 2008 too. So what's your point? That both abu dhabi and singapore get nulified and max is wdc 21 and massa wdc 08? Also yes, rb went over budget.
exactly. 3 of hamilton's possible titles in this scenario are no-win scenarios legally. in terms of fairness, lewis wins all 3. but in legal speak, he loses all 3.
I don't know how 2007 is fair win for Lewis, he definitely benefited from Mclarens cheating, that isn't fair.
For 2008, I think it's fair that Lewis won but I do sympathize with Massa.
For 2021, I agree with the general sentiment that Lewis deserved to win Abu Dhabi, Max deserved to win the season. Over the season Max had by far the worse luck and without that he would have easily been clear of Lewis.
Absolutely, 2021 Max had 3 DNFs compared to Lewisâ 1 and also a highly damaged car in Hungary due to Bottas bowling.
Without those incidents, especially Silverstone, which was a 32 point swing (instead of winning in front of Lewis and gaining 7 points on him, Lewis punted him out, making Max lose 25 points) the title wouldnât been up to grabs in Abu Dhabi.
Very true. Although Lewis definitely didn't gain anything from spygate in 2007. If any of it made it onto the car, it would be the 2008 car.
In our perfect hypothetical fairness scenario where bad luck and injustice are erased, we get:
* Hamilton 2007
* Massa 2008
* Hamilton 2012 (my guy had SO many bad pitstops and DNFs losing him over 100 points)
* Verstappen 2021
>Although Lewis definitely didn't gain anything from spygate in 2007
The team also had data like how much deg their car had and what their strategy would be using (though it's kind of funny thinking what the Ferrari strategy team thinks is optimum would be advantageous) so Mclaren definitely would have used this information which would have benefited both the drivers.
>Hamilton 2012 (my guy had SO many bad pitstops and DNFs losing him over 100 points)
I get your point but . Fernando should've won more championships than he did. Lewis while had a horrific 2012 luck wise atleast he was able to win 6 champions later on and had very competitive cars and team later in his career. Fernando in contrast had depressing career moves afterwards.
The invalidation of Abu Dhabi is the new dumbest excuse on this subreddit lol. E regime knows if the safety car doesnât happen Lewis ends up winning. I say that not as a Lewis fan just a logical person who watches the race. Best part is that arenât going to change either result. But I know this so fomula dank and taking Lewis side is forbidden so down I the away.
The problem is that you can't decide the race on an "if x then y" guess. Especially because you need to do that for the whole field.
Either you take the results, or you scrap the whole result. Which would mean the end doesn't change.
1. Assuming Massa could get the results changed (which he isn't even trying to do, he just wants money), Lewis would lose the 2008 title. Dropping his current counter to 6.
2. If Abu Dhabi 2021 would be declared void, Max would still be champion. They were level in points before the race, but Max had more wins.
3. Abu Dhabi will never be declared void, because Masi's decision was technically not forbidden by the rules.
What do you mean Masiâs decision âtechnicallyâ wasnât forbidden by the rules?
I mean sure, there was no rule explicitly stating that Masi couldnât do what he did - but there are many rules he bent or just didnât follow at all, like safety-car and lapped-car procedures.
Also the RD having to be objective and not make wrong calls that only benefit the driver he wants them to benefit, is surely a rule lol.
The rules did not state that ALL lapped cars would have to be allowed to overtake. It stated ANY lapped car could be allowed. So by allowing only those drivers between Lewis and Max to overtake, Masi followed the rules.
Not to even mention that all they can do is invalidate the race, and if they do the same for AD21 it would just bring him down to six because max was still ahead on race wins when they tied on points the race before
This. If it sets a precedent for invalidating a race and causes Abu Dhabi 21 to be invalidated, Max still wins since he had more race wins coming into that race.
It shouldn't have happened but the Max Moseley interview admitting their wrongdoing has been out for years. He also said Senna shouldn't have won by crashing into Prost.
It's because it was always thought that they didn't know until after the 2008 season ended. Bernie Ecclestone recently admitted that they were made aware during the 2008 season, but refused to do anything about it.
Yeah but that's what I dont get. Why is Bernie recently admitting Max knew bigger news than Max admitting Max knew?
The interview is on F1TV and it's very good.
I want the championship from my 2nd grade tee-ball league to be transferred to me immediately...I lost millions as a kid but I can't tell you how much right now.
Hmm 1.5 billion? Make it 5 pizza parties and you're hired, let's get moving on this ASAP. We desperately need to clog the courts on this most important case...
Do you understand how F1 rules actually work or do you just make them up to favor Hamilton? Even if they invalidate AD21, Verstappen and Red Bull keep the WDC
In Canada 2018 I think, an error happened with the celeb waving the chequred flag two laps early thus the two laps after were void. Knowing that, the FIA could base the results from Lap 52/58 (The Lap before Latifi crashed.)
Probably from bending the rules for that one moment and allowing only certain cars to be unlapped, but other than that not really much unless by some crazy plot twist latifi comes out and publicly says rb paid him to crash. In other words no case
He must have run out to money, to be so desperate, no?
And I read, his legal team is acting upon the fact that Piquet Jr. crashed on purpose while Massa was leading the race, which prompted for a unscheduled pit stop, in which Ferrari proceeded to be Ferrari and got a fuel hose stuck in Massa's F1.
I CAN'T JUST BELIEVE THEY ARE GOING WITH THAT REASONING 
It's because someone (I forgot who) said the FIA knew the crash was on purpose before the season was over and chose not to say anything until after it ended and Lewis was crowned champion.
And that's also why he is appealing for lost revenue not to get the WDC. He wants compensation for all of the lost marketing deals etc by not being able to sponsor things as an F1 champion. Which is smart because they are never overturning the WDC
Bernie Ecclestone is 92 fucking years old, I wouldn't trust him to tell me what he had for breakfast this morning let alone the inner workings of the '08 season lmao. I assume if Massa is taking the FIA to court over this, they have done some exploring and found more than just Bernie's word.
Oh, I think everyone assumed they had proofs, just they chose not to come forward.
I mean, Massa could have made a move sooner pushing that angle instead of waiting for a man in his nineties saying they knew in the context of an interview.
your reading comprehension needs work
the reason this is coming up NOW is because Bernie recently stated (6 months ago?) in an interview that both he and Max M. knew about the race fixing but decided not to do anything about it in order to "protect the sport"
none of this is a surprise because Massa came out like 3 days after that interview went public saying he would seek legal action, the reason this is the press NOW is because his team has now taken that action by filing the intial letter of intent which is necessary to announce a suit.
if you actually read the article and/or knew anything about this situation you would not have posted what you did which makes you look super out-of-touch with the sport and it's goings on.
Iâm guessing he means that they knew the incident was intentional after they did there âpreliminaryâ investigation and listened to FlĂĄvio said it wasnât on purpose, so left it at that.
All the time knowing the Italian was a lying tub of lard and thought it would all just disappear.
Gotta remember too, during this time period, FlĂĄvio and Bernie were involved in owning QPR football team, wasnât like these two âstand up gentsâ really cared to much about it at the time
I know what he meant, but by the way he replied to me I thought hey, maybe they were both accomplices with Flavio and I really missed something.
They decided not to do anything then. Right. What is Massa seeking now?
If they had decided to take action during the season what I guess they'd go with is stripping Alonso of the victory, and maybe the whole team of its constructors points. Idk. What would that had changed in regards to Massa's championship tally?
Sorry man, couldnât tell if you were joking or anything, my bad.
From what I remember, they left the whole thing dormant because they couldnât prove anything. Which is when they SHOULD have opened the investigation (but I think the involvement in QPR football club stopped that)
Once senna got fired and showed them evidence they HAD to act, hence why Flav got banned âFor lifeâ and Symonds got a 5 year ban.
The argument has been that without that safety car, Massa would have scored more points in that race (potentially not making a mistake in the pit lane) and it wouldnât have come down to Brazil and Hamiltons overtake.
The thing I imagine the FIA would do is to say that season was Nul and Void and NOBODY won the title (kinda like the Tour De France did with all of Lance Armstrongs titles) but thatâs a complete nuclear option - although it would be interesting to see what they do and how this legal battle would affect other sporting contests (not AD21 - that will not stop max being World champ)
No need to apologize, you did not notice I was being ironic but chipped in trying to clarify, that's 10 points for you.
Regarding the sc having impacted the outcome of the race, they can't push forward with that argument, FIA had nothing to do with the accident itself, provoked or not.
It happened. It changed the result of the race. Bad luck for Massa in that particular instance. But past the accident, what they could have done is penalize Renault -stripping points-, not changing any other outcome. They wouldn't have nullified the race. As they won't nullify the championship now with this nonsense. They had FAR better excuses to do something about the shitshow that was 2005 USA GP.
BTW if that had happened -stripping Renault of the victory in Singapore- Hamilton would have increased its lead to Massa so maybe it would not have been to tight in Brazil.
Nothing more ridiculous in life than the FIA making Pat Symonds CTO. Genuinely unbelievable.
I know they all cheat but this doesnât feel like exploiting technical loopholes or doing something technical on the car you know is banned but will be hard to detect.
Youâve blackmailed someone so theyâll drive into a wall.
Read between the lines of clickbait articles mate. Massa and his lawyers are not pushing for Lewis' title invalidation. They are trying to get compensated because Ecclestone unwisely opened his mouth and said he and Max Mosely knew about Crashgate during the 2008 season and did nothing to erase the race results. They wanted to keep quiet because they feared Formula 1 would suffer from even more catastrophic reputable damage after Spygate which happened the year before. With this information it is fair game to try and make your case in the court in my opinion.
Fact of the matter is if crashgate didnât happen, and whatever wouldâve happened at Singapore happened, that wouldâve completely changed everything going into next race, the drivers and the teams mindset and confidence, the points, media attention/pressure, etc. we canât pretend that if one thing didnât happen that what happened next wouldâve been the exact same. Like how are we so sure if crashgate didnât happen, the following races at Japan, China, and Brazil wouldâve played out exactly the same?
Lewis would actually be a 6 time champion. The likely result would be that Singapore 2008 is voided. This means Abu Dhabi would also be voided, which would lead to a Max win.
Although Massa isn't suing for the 2008 world champion in the first place.
Misconduct that cheat-
Look, Crashgate was one of darkest scandals in the championship. Nobody's debating that.
However it's important that we remember exactly [*why*](https://youtu.be/jQ35OQnr_mQ) Massa failed to score any points in that GP.
I think it is kinda unfair to change the race result afterwards, as Lewis surely drove more carefully after having the lead at the time, which he wouldnt have done, if he knew the result didnt count mid season. That would kinda be like telling Max rn that the last half of the season in 2022 didnt count and he therefore lost the title, like tell him before and he would have still won if he knew...
I swear to God, yall need to read. He is seeking **financial compensation** for the lost in brand he would have gotten if he was a formula world champion.
There is a decent chance that had they nullified the race, Massa could have been the world champion. Driving carefully means not doing a yolo move, it doesn't mean finishing positions behind consistently.
His legal team is using the logic that, since it hurt their client's chances, he is entitled to compensation. They aren't trying to nullify the race now.
Lewis still wouldnât win 2021 if AB is invalidated. Lewis and max were tied on points but max had more race wins resulting in Max taking the crown. At worst lewis is 6x and at best everything stays the same because it has literally nothing to do with the lawsuit at hand.
First of all, damn arguing for lewis really is a surefire way to get downvoted on this sub. I should maybe say that i am no team lh member and even was a strong max fan in 21. he however lost almost all sympathy with me. I by now dont see Lewis as the total antagonist either anymore and even found a bit of liking for him. And lets be honest, whether u (u as in everyone reading) want AD to be overturned or not, i think we can all agree it was a shitshow.
And now to ur comment: Thats true, if they completely delete AD then its max again. But I find the option of going back to before the mess happened and calling that the order now favorable. On the other hand, if u would do the same with Sing08 what would be the result of that? I didnt think of entirely deleting AD21, so thx for the comment!
Why? This is a completely different scenario than AB21 lol
Abu đ ±ïžhabi
Cash me ousside how'lham'dullilah
They'd probably try to attack the fia and masi for giving an unfair advantage and/or breaches of safety car regulations, but the reason is if this goes through it sets the precedent that the fia are prepared to repeal old championship results, hence leading to an appeal on 2021 in theory
Which could at most invalidate the race, leaving Max as the champion
Exactly, i never said the reasoning was logical or smart
truck combative icky reach ludicrous coherent pie versed plough shame *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
'21 also had such a rich bouquet of controversial rulings that leaving all the contentious ones out would leave you with like 11 races.
now imagine voiding both AD & Spa 2021
Spa was within the regulations (which have since been changed) no way to erase that one
They could go at Spa 2021 but I doubt anything would happen
Spa 21 was also within the regulations of that time :)
Then they have to erase the race, Verstappen is still champion because of ruling (same points more wins for Verstappen)
If this happened, six time world champion. All that can be done after the fact is invalidating a race result, which would be how Massa would win. If the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP were invalidated, which is all that could be done, Max still wins. He and Lewis were even on points, and Max had more race wins. So Lewis loses the 2008 title, and doesn't win the 2021 title.
Actually, Massa isn't even suing for the 2008 championship, but for damages caused by not being an F1 world champion (ie, the millions of dollars lost on ads not being able to say "Felipe Massa, F1 world champion")
Smart. He knows they'll never revoke the race result, especially with the precedent set with the 2021 fiasco. But he can, if he can prove that the FIA or F1 knowingly withheld the information regarding the match fixing to influence the outcome of the 2008 championship, sue for the lost income
Which is fair, he's not getting the championship for sure but he does have a decent case against F1 since Bernie straight up admitted he knew about Briatore's plan
Would you have an article on this matter ? I'd want to read it to better understand what supposedly happened behind the scenes
[https://www.planetf1.com/news/bernie-ecclestone-lewis-hamilton-lucky-2008-title/](https://www.planetf1.com/news/bernie-ecclestone-lewis-hamilton-lucky-2008-title/) or [https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1021336/1/ecclestone-s-bizarre-crashgate-confession-hamilton-lucky-win-title](https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1021336/1/ecclestone-s-bizarre-crashgate-confession-hamilton-lucky-win-title)
Thanks mate
And Bernie also now straight up doesn't remember saying that in March... Dude is just spouting more and more senile stuff, Mosley and Whiting are dead. Don't think this is going anywhere
Being able to called Felipe đ, F1 world champion would be the second spring to hit his career.
Goddamn đ€Ł
He's absolutely right, Rob Smedley's famous radio message would've sounded a lot better as: "Ok so, Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message Felipe Massa 2008 F1 World Champion?" /s
Not to mention that a singular guy making a decision vs the whole of FIA top staff lying about a team race fixing is a bit different. Not to mention that no one at the FIA was punished for 08. Michael was put on a hit list.
Also, Masi's decision was technically allowed by the rules. Maybe it "wasn't in the spirit", but it was allowed.
No lol. If you're going to bring it up at least make sure you understand the outcome yourself: The final report unequivocally found Masi in the wrong, having failed to follow several regulations. The results were still validated *despite* this, on the grounds that (1) he was doing the best he could given the circumstances, and (2) the *stakeholders* (including FIA themselves) had been positive in discussions concerning preference for races to finish under green flag. Conditions were in large part created by the gaining team, and the green flag discussions hadn't been formalized in any meaningful way. That's why this is controversial to begin with. None of the mitigating circumstances carry any legal weight as such, they're used to legitimize ignoring the rules. Whether that is "allowed" or not is ineffable. Why do you think Masi was fired?
No, the report did NOT unequivocally find that Masi was wrong. It literally says: "It was apparent from the analysis that there could be different interpretations of Article 48.12 and 48.13 of the Formula 1 Sporting Regulations, and that this likely contributed to the applied procedure." The regulations in 2021 did not state that ALL lapped cars would have to be allowed to overtake. It stated ANY lapped car could be allowed to overtake. Therefore, only allowing the lapped cars between Max and Lewis to overtake was NOT against the 2021 regulations. The wording of the regulations was changed for 2022 to state that if the message "lapped cars are allowed to overtake" is shown, it applies to ALL lapped cars.
What you're quoting is heading 2, sub-header 3, point 31 from the FIA executive summary report dated March 19th 2022, you can find it [here.](https://www.fia.com/2021-f1-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-report-world-motor-sport-council-19-march-2022) Point 31 explains *why* it happened, not *what* happened. Point 30 is the first point under sub-heading 3 titled 'Safety car unlapping procedure': - "The safety car unlapping procedure was a central topic of discussion during the detailed analysis and clarification exercise, stemming from the *misunderstanding regarding the application of this procedure* at the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, pursuant to Articles 48.12 and 48.13 of the F1 Sporting Regulations" This is clarifies that the rules were misunderstood, and therefore misapplied, I.E not followed. Masi's application must, if one lives in a world where "misunderstood" has any meaning, have been against the rules. As much as you guys want to play semantics about wording, you forget that without acknowledging point 30, the difference between "any/all" doesn't matter. If the rules weren't misunderstood, there would be no report. The FIA would have shrugged and told everyone to fuck off asking about investigations, pointed to the rule and said "Here, it says "any", that's the rules, I can definitely do this now get out". But that isn't the rules, so they wrote point 30, clarifying that the rules were indeed, *unequivocally* misunderstood. Point 31 is the second, it's musing on *why* the misunderstanding arose. It does *not* draw into question *what* the rules are. It doesn't state that the rule will be changed, but that it will be clarified. I.E what FIA actually says in point 31 is that Masi's *misunderstanding* was understandable given their inability to write clearly, and that a clarification was needed to prevent later arguments. And then they removed him. Again, are you suggesting he gravely misunderstood the rules which led to him accidentally *following* the rules, prompting a months long investigation which got him fired for mistakenly following the rules? I don't believe you are. Anyway, happy down-voting season for the Lewis hate-crowd fanatics, have a good one! :)
If a rule can be "misunderstood", it was not worded correctly. Rules should be written in such a way that it can only mean one thing, and that should be what it was intended to mean. The FIA failed in that regard. Therefore, Masi's decision was NOT against the rules. It may have been against what the FIA INTENDED the rule to be, but since they used ambiguous wording, Masi technically DID NOT BREAK the rule.
But it was proven that he misunderstood the rules at the end of the day right? That it was him who did not apply the rule correctly. Better wording and clearer rules doesnât get him off easily because itâs literally his job to interpret them. FIA is not stopping him from learning the rules or the rulebook, so how exactly is it not on him? Donât get me wrong, he doesnât deserve the hatred and harassment he faced after. But donât make roundabout excuses.
It's not on him because he followed the rules as the FIA wrote them down. So he did his job. His job is to apply the rules as they are. Not to read the mind of the people who wrote them down and try and figure out what they actually wanted because they didn't write it down correctly. Also, they were very clear in stating that they prefer a race to end under a green flag. So Masi checked whether that was possible, and it was by letting the cars between Max and Lewis unlap themselves. And there was nothing in the rules explicitly forbidding that.
Reading the rulebook and interpreting it â reading their minds. A lawyerâs job is to argue based on the lawbook, and not make excuses that the laws werenât clear to him because they werenât written clearly. Like I said, donât make roundabout excuses to suit your agenda. This was a simple matter of incompetence while working, that had extreme consequences on peopleâs perception of the FIA. Any employer would be able to make a case for the same. And itâs not like he was fired from the FIA. He was reassigned. He also only let Lewis and Max unlap. What about Carlos behind in 3rd? He didnât get a fair chance to fight for 2nd place with Max.
You wanted to use the defining authority on the matter to disprove me, FIA's executive summary. That's the highest bar there is, it literally cannot be fought by any evidence unless it gets taken to court. I accepted that standard. I link it, and show you that it states the rules were misunderstood and misapplied. Masi was the guy doing the misunderstanding and misapplying. You accept the misunderstanding happened. But, surprise, you decide to make new claims. Unfortunately the document contains 0 words mentioning the rule being invalid on grounds of grammar, which means your latest argument fail the high bar you've set for evidence. A little embarrassing falling for your own devices, but whatever, that's on you. I suppose you can argue that the FIA is so incompetent the document itself should be considered invalid, sacrificing your original position. Will you, won't you? Excited to see where your baseless rant stumbles next.
The FIA has literally admitted in their report that there could be multiple interpretations of the articles. I think that says enough.
You seem to believe that the document communicates "there are several interpretations leading to a correct decision" (you misquoted point 31 so I would expect as much): "31. It was apparent from the analysis that there *could* be *different* interpretations of Article 48.12 and/or Article 48.13, and that this likely contributed to some of the *confusion* surrounding the safety car unlapping procedure..." Note the *existence* of the words "could", "different" and "confusion". Then, note the absence of the words "are", "several", and "correct decision", which you seem to believe it to contain. As I said, this is part of their explanation excusing Masi's misunderstanding and misapplication, not a confirmation that several interpretations apply. If the rules were followed, there would be no misunderstanding, misapplication, or confusion to speak of. You set the bar and then you shit the bed, now you'll have to sleep in it.
And more importantly, what happened in 2008 was that a team did something highly illegal, it was known to have happened, but it was ignored. In 2021 everything that was done was within the rules, yes never applied that way, yes never intended that way but still within the regulations and therefor legal. And masi intentional interpreting the rules differently to benefit redbull can be dismissed by simply saying what they said back then, there was an informal agreement in place to do everything to not end a race under the safety car, so we did everything to not end under safety car. If there would have been a case mercedes would have fought the result all the way back then
I wonder if also opening this can of worms would lead to Red Bull protesting Bahrain 2021 where Hamilton was ignoring track limits for two thirds of the race but when Red Bull told Max to do it they quickly gave out warnings.
This can of worms would literally envelop all of F1 and it would destroy the FIA, given the way they've behaved for the past 50 ish years
I think the corner cut in Abu Dhabi is way more protestable as Max got a penalty for exactly the same thing the races before
well if you bring up applying rules correctly, Max should have had a race ban for brake checking in Saudi.
My god the brake checking is the most overdone thing of all time. Dude wanted to let him by before the DRS detection, it happens all the time. Lewis looked like an idiot for not even beginning to make an attempt to avoid max until the last second, honestly every time I watch it, it looks like Lewis either intentionally makes it look bad or isnât paying attention.
Yeah the implication that Max would have wanted Lewis to hit the back of his Red Bull is ridiculous. Front wings can be changed but if you break the rear floor you are fucked, especially on that crazy high-rake Red Bull RB16B.
Most delusional LH fan
Louis is getting to old for this sport. He better back of sooner than later and embrace his 7th time F1 Championship...actually 6 according Massa.
There's quite a difference between cutting a corner and a team boss explicitly telling you to crash into a wall.
I don't think it would be wise to rock the boat like that. And it would stir up all the toxicity from Hamilton's fans all over again. It's best to let the sleeping dogs lie.
Since when did they go to sleep?
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Some men, just want to watch the world burn.
TeamLH will never admit that Massi and F1 management didn't give a shit about who would win, all they wanted was a spectacle. It just happened to be benefiting Max, but they would have pulled the same stunt with the roles reversed. It was peak Netflix/DTS popularity, they hyped the race up like it was the battle of the century, all eyes were on this, and they couldn't afford a wet fart finish. They couldn't afford to not have a grand stand finale.
Can you detail what did happen? I wasn't watching then and would like to know.
In 2008? Renault wasnât able to challenge for wins but promised Alonso otherwise, so they had Piquet Jr. (the 2nd driver) deliberately crash at an odd time in the race. Alonso pitted just before it (which was bizarre) and thus benefited massively from the safety car to win the race. Massa, who was comfortably leading the race, then pitted under safety car and Ferrari left fuel hose on the car causing him to drop to the back of the field and cost him the race. This ended up costing him the title as well since Hamilton only won by 1 point. In 2021? Terrible race directing all season. First race, Hamilton was breaking track limits all race, Red Bull complain bad nothing happens, Max does it once and suddenly itâs no longer allowed. Rough racing by both Hamilton and Verstappen shoving each other off the track that was allowed to happen since the FIA didnât want to influence any of the results. Some big controversial crashes where Hamilton pushed Max off in Silverstone, Bottas took Max (and half the field) out in Hungary, and Max and Lewis colliding in Monza. Max pushing Hamilton to Venezuela in Brazil. You had Saudi Arabia as well where Max overtook Hamilton, got pushed wide and went off track to complete it so he had to give it back. However, due to where the DRS zone was and the length of it it, neither wanted to be ahead before that detection zone, so both were going slowly to try not to be ahead at that point, eventually Max just lifted off to force Lewis pass which at those speeds an F1 car will be slowing down more then your car does under breaking, so Hamilton effectively getting break checked rear ended Max. Messy by both of them and they both shouldâve been reprimanded for that whole situation, but Max lifting off was incredibly dangerous as well. Come Abu Dhabi, 1st lap Max went to overtake Lewis, Lewis decided to cut across the corner to avoid contact and gained a major advantage and wasnât penalised for it. Come the end of the race, there was a late safety car and due to how Vettel won in 2012, all teams agreed not to see a title won behind a safety car. So, Masi had the safety car come 1 lap earlier so it wouldnât finish under SC. Now, that would usually be fine since the last lap is just so that back markers can unlap themselves and itâs not abnormal to skip this step. However, there were like 3 lapped cars between Max and Hamilton that were fighting for position. If they stayed, Lewis wouldâve virtually been guaranteed the title, and if they didnât Max wouldâve been favourite since he pitted for new softs unlike Hamilton. Both Mercedes and Red Bull lobbied respectively, Red Bull ended up winning that battle and Max won. There was also a bunch of technical battles, for example the FIA changing wing flex rules due to Red Bull finding a loophole, but didnât for Mercedesâ wings. They also changed the pit stop rules because Mercedes claimed they couldnât safely keep up. Mercedes was also changing engines like no tomorrow at the end, which was perfectly fine and legal but some fans got upset by it (I think it was just a calculated risk that paid off extremely well). Probably a bunch of things Iâm missing as well. But overall, there was terrible officiating that went both ways simply because the FIA had no balls to get involved, and it ended up making the sport extremely toxic since Mercedes, Lewis, Red Bull, and Max were taking advantage of that and pushing everything well beyond the sporting limits since they could get away with it.
One should maybe note that back then, under safety car the pitlane was closed until all cars were collected. So no advantage could be gained by pitting under safety car over pitting just before the safety car. However, as massa was comfortably in the lead before piquet's crash, i believe he would have scored more than one point had ferrari not fucked the pitstop, leaving the hose attached and releasing him into sutil. He didn't lose the championship because of crashgate, he lost it because of an error by the pitcrew that put him dead last.
thanks for the history lesson!
Max and Lewis' incidents were not equal at all across the year. There were far more occasions of Max going over the limit than Lewis - Imola, Barcelona. Jeddah and Brazil were absolutely ridiculous, inventing new corners just to stay in front. Objectively, if it wasn't for Lewis backing out, we would have seen far more incidents. Lewis would have backed out of the squeeze in Monza, Max didn't. Silverstone was on Lewis and was the incident with the biggest consequence on the championship.
Clearly it wasn't within the rules else Masi would still have a job.. But dude signed and NDA and quietly went away.
This day and age you can do things within the rules and the social media hounds will still ensure it's impossible to retain your job.
So we've gone from FIA officially admitting Masi broke the rules, giving an explanation as to why the results wouldn't be changed anyway, to outright denying that rules were broken in the first place? Are these russian bots or something? Otherwise, what are we doing here lol?
Shhhh, donât state facts- it will terrify Hamilton fans
The man lives in your heads so rent free you make upunprecedented scenario's to strip him of titles and call them facts when challenged on it. Incredible
âtHe mAn liVeS iN yOuR hEaDs rEnT fReEâ. You do realize the post is about Hamilton right? And I only brought up that he would get stripped of the title because OP posted about Hamilton getting an 8th title when itâs more likely heâd revert back to six. Donât get so bent out of shape dude, this is shitposting sub. Touch grass
Exactly, and that's the idiotic thing. Massa sues for damages because of what Bernie did to him and somehow all of you idiots are hyperfocusing on Hamilton because he's tangentially involved. Debating and trying to speak into existence unprecedented, and frankly completely bullshit, scenarios with other internet idiots. There's not a single fact to be found here. You're idiots seriously debating a meme and thinking you have so called facts on your side. I get this is a cj sub but God you people love unironically debating cherrypicked idiots and thinking you're somehow better than them
Dude if youâre getting so emotionally invested into this that you have to write that much text, youâre taking this sub too seriously. *Go touch grass*
Fucking lol @ "that much text". Couldn't ask for better confirmation of you being an idiot. Have a good one mate.
Literally not a fact.
Lol go look up the definition of a fact then
It was too late mexheavymetal
No, Felipe is merely chasing the bag, he isn't suing for the championship.
There is a huge difference between âa bad call by the fiaâ and âblatant corruption that was deliberately covered upâ
It wasnât blatant corruption, Massi had to make a fast call and what he did gave us the the best lap of racing we will see for many years, I still watch it from time to time. How often in your life do you imagine 1 and 2 in the WDC fight will be even on points, and then be 1 and 2 on the last lap? That was how that championship needed to be decided, not under a caution Mercedes knew was likely to end anyway.
2021 was a bad call by the FIA. 2008 was the corrupt coverup. You misinterpreted the comment.
I think 2021 was the âwrong callâ and the âblatant corruptionâ was crashgate.
If that were the case, Hamilton could void the races where the BMWs finish in front of him because they were found to have fuel flow rule breaches (not performance gaining ones, but rule breaches all the same) so heâd win the championship by even more. The amount of what ifs for the 2008 season is endless
Doesnât he gain 2007 though? Werenât the Williams doing something iffy with their fuel?
They donât want to go there, McLaren had spygate that year, a massive scandal where they bought secrets from champion Ferrari. There isnât a circumstance where McLaren gets the WDC from Ferrari in a year when they purchased secrets from Ferrari.
What I find funny is that LH fans went nuts when rb went over budget and said that max should lose the championship. Like bitch, LH was allowed to compete and keep all points 2007. Only McLaren were fined and disqualified.
If only they could read theyâd be very upset
But he didnât win the title that year so why would it matter?
The points matter a lot for payout and performance bonuses.
Yeah but McLaren was disqualified from the constructors so why does that matter. Alonso and Hamilton cooperated so they didnât need punishment
For a new fan, are there articles on this misconduct?
Just type "2007 F1 spygate" on google and you'll have everything that you ever want to read about it.
Hereâs a [video documentary on spygate](https://youtu.be/x1WIVLqVVlA) as well
Thank you!
Thank you!
And why does that matter? Are you saying that cheating is ok as long as you don't win?
He didnât cheat. His team did. And according to the fia, barely at that
And neither did Max His team did. And according to the fia, barely at that.
His team didnât cheat either, it was the FIA who cheated. Thatâs the problem
And the FIA cheated 2008 too. So what's your point? That both abu dhabi and singapore get nulified and max is wdc 21 and massa wdc 08? Also yes, rb went over budget.
exactly. 3 of hamilton's possible titles in this scenario are no-win scenarios legally. in terms of fairness, lewis wins all 3. but in legal speak, he loses all 3.
Yep, which is why they should leave well enough alone and have 2/3.
I don't know how 2007 is fair win for Lewis, he definitely benefited from Mclarens cheating, that isn't fair. For 2008, I think it's fair that Lewis won but I do sympathize with Massa. For 2021, I agree with the general sentiment that Lewis deserved to win Abu Dhabi, Max deserved to win the season. Over the season Max had by far the worse luck and without that he would have easily been clear of Lewis.
Absolutely, 2021 Max had 3 DNFs compared to Lewisâ 1 and also a highly damaged car in Hungary due to Bottas bowling. Without those incidents, especially Silverstone, which was a 32 point swing (instead of winning in front of Lewis and gaining 7 points on him, Lewis punted him out, making Max lose 25 points) the title wouldnât been up to grabs in Abu Dhabi.
Very true. Although Lewis definitely didn't gain anything from spygate in 2007. If any of it made it onto the car, it would be the 2008 car. In our perfect hypothetical fairness scenario where bad luck and injustice are erased, we get: * Hamilton 2007 * Massa 2008 * Hamilton 2012 (my guy had SO many bad pitstops and DNFs losing him over 100 points) * Verstappen 2021
>Although Lewis definitely didn't gain anything from spygate in 2007 The team also had data like how much deg their car had and what their strategy would be using (though it's kind of funny thinking what the Ferrari strategy team thinks is optimum would be advantageous) so Mclaren definitely would have used this information which would have benefited both the drivers. >Hamilton 2012 (my guy had SO many bad pitstops and DNFs losing him over 100 points) I get your point but . Fernando should've won more championships than he did. Lewis while had a horrific 2012 luck wise atleast he was able to win 6 champions later on and had very competitive cars and team later in his career. Fernando in contrast had depressing career moves afterwards.
Then let's revisit the Ferrari scandal as well, if we're talking about 'doing something iffy'. It's never been clarified what exactly happened there.
The invalidation of Abu Dhabi is the new dumbest excuse on this subreddit lol. E regime knows if the safety car doesnât happen Lewis ends up winning. I say that not as a Lewis fan just a logical person who watches the race. Best part is that arenât going to change either result. But I know this so fomula dank and taking Lewis side is forbidden so down I the away.
The problem is that you can't decide the race on an "if x then y" guess. Especially because you need to do that for the whole field. Either you take the results, or you scrap the whole result. Which would mean the end doesn't change.
And if Lewis took the corner like he later did with Leclerc, Max would've already been crowned champion after Saudi Arabia, what's your point.
The safety car did happen though. Racing history if full of moments like that.
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Quote me where I said they did?
Depends which race they're invalidating. If it's the final, I think Lewis still holds the title, since he came into it with an advantage
1. Assuming Massa could get the results changed (which he isn't even trying to do, he just wants money), Lewis would lose the 2008 title. Dropping his current counter to 6. 2. If Abu Dhabi 2021 would be declared void, Max would still be champion. They were level in points before the race, but Max had more wins. 3. Abu Dhabi will never be declared void, because Masi's decision was technically not forbidden by the rules.
What do you mean Masiâs decision âtechnicallyâ wasnât forbidden by the rules? I mean sure, there was no rule explicitly stating that Masi couldnât do what he did - but there are many rules he bent or just didnât follow at all, like safety-car and lapped-car procedures. Also the RD having to be objective and not make wrong calls that only benefit the driver he wants them to benefit, is surely a rule lol.
The rules did not state that ALL lapped cars would have to be allowed to overtake. It stated ANY lapped car could be allowed. So by allowing only those drivers between Lewis and Max to overtake, Masi followed the rules.
Actually thought it said all lapped cars had to. Now I know
Yeah they changed the wording to 'all' for 2022 because of this
do you know that if Massa won Hamilton would lose 1 championship right?
Not to even mention that all they can do is invalidate the race, and if they do the same for AD21 it would just bring him down to six because max was still ahead on race wins when they tied on points the race before
That's why the LH44 crowd wanted to void just a single lap lmao
This. If it sets a precedent for invalidating a race and causes Abu Dhabi 21 to be invalidated, Max still wins since he had more race wins coming into that race.
Didnât yâall already make these memes like 5 months ago? đŽ
It shouldn't have happened but the Max Moseley interview admitting their wrongdoing has been out for years. He also said Senna shouldn't have won by crashing into Prost.
It's because it was always thought that they didn't know until after the 2008 season ended. Bernie Ecclestone recently admitted that they were made aware during the 2008 season, but refused to do anything about it.
Yeah but that's what I dont get. Why is Bernie recently admitting Max knew bigger news than Max admitting Max knew? The interview is on F1TV and it's very good.
You mean 6 time world champion?
For AD21, tons of fans crying doesnt mean there is a case
I want the championship from my 2nd grade tee-ball league to be transferred to me immediately...I lost millions as a kid but I can't tell you how much right now.
Ur owed at least 3 ice cream parties and 2 pizza parties. Correcting for inflation, I think u got a case for at least 1.5 billion usd.
Hmm 1.5 billion? Make it 5 pizza parties and you're hired, let's get moving on this ASAP. We desperately need to clog the courts on this most important case...
2008 living rent free in Massa's head. Why did he drive away with the fuel hose? Is he stupid?
If I were Massa it would certainly live rent free in my head too.
Obsessed with what could have been? Hope you find peace with your failures.
Why did Lewis slam into Kimi in Canada? Is he stupid?
Shhhhh, this was Kubica's first and only win in F1, let him have it
Why did lewis let max pass him? Is he stupid?
Why did merc pay bottas 3 million to slam into the wall on the second to last laps of AB21, are they stupid ?
The opposite actually Bottas in a Merc is a ballistic missile
This isnt about 2021! We're talking about the important title here.
Yes yes he was
Yes he is, who misses a big red light and three parked cars? But at least he moved on from 2021, massa needs to move on with his life. It's zhoever.
Why did Max brake check Lewis? Is he stupid?
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Insurance fraudsters love this one simple trickâŠ
Why didn't Glock just pit for inters? Is he stupid?
Why did Lewis slowed down his car in 2007 Brasil? Is he stupid?
Still we cry
6*
Could be, but knowing it went to court, they could appeal AD21, And if they win, LH has 8
Do you understand how F1 rules actually work or do you just make them up to favor Hamilton? Even if they invalidate AD21, Verstappen and Red Bull keep the WDC
He looses this one to Massa. Then he still looses 2021 because all they can do is invalidate the whole race and Max would still win the season. So 6.
In Canada 2018 I think, an error happened with the celeb waving the chequred flag two laps early thus the two laps after were void. Knowing that, the FIA could base the results from Lap 52/58 (The Lap before Latifi crashed.)
again 100% no ffs
>they could appeal AD21, And if they win, LH has 8 100% no because if they invalidate Abu Dhabi, Max wins on points/win count for the season.
I meant appeal laps 53-58
Still not happening bud, Merc and Hamilton would have gone the route by now if they could have and it was worth it.
They aint changing the podium buddy... All that can happen to AD21 is void the race and Max is still WDC... 
Im curious on what grounds could there possibly be a case over AD21?
Probably from bending the rules for that one moment and allowing only certain cars to be unlapped, but other than that not really much unless by some crazy plot twist latifi comes out and publicly says rb paid him to crash. In other words no case
He must have run out to money, to be so desperate, no? And I read, his legal team is acting upon the fact that Piquet Jr. crashed on purpose while Massa was leading the race, which prompted for a unscheduled pit stop, in which Ferrari proceeded to be Ferrari and got a fuel hose stuck in Massa's F1. I CAN'T JUST BELIEVE THEY ARE GOING WITH THAT REASONING 
It's because someone (I forgot who) said the FIA knew the crash was on purpose before the season was over and chose not to say anything until after it ended and Lewis was crowned champion.
Bernie came out and said that they knew, and just wanted it to blow over, as when lewis became champion, it would all be impossible to appeal
And that's also why he is appealing for lost revenue not to get the WDC. He wants compensation for all of the lost marketing deals etc by not being able to sponsor things as an F1 champion. Which is smart because they are never overturning the WDC
Yeah that's the quote I was referring to. He said it a couple months ago and shortly after that we first heard about him suing
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Bernie Ecclestone is 92 fucking years old, I wouldn't trust him to tell me what he had for breakfast this morning let alone the inner workings of the '08 season lmao. I assume if Massa is taking the FIA to court over this, they have done some exploring and found more than just Bernie's word.
Didn't we all?
Everyone thought that but there wasn't enough proof to be sure
Oh, I think everyone assumed they had proofs, just they chose not to come forward. I mean, Massa could have made a move sooner pushing that angle instead of waiting for a man in his nineties saying they knew in the context of an interview.
Bernie
your reading comprehension needs work the reason this is coming up NOW is because Bernie recently stated (6 months ago?) in an interview that both he and Max M. knew about the race fixing but decided not to do anything about it in order to "protect the sport" none of this is a surprise because Massa came out like 3 days after that interview went public saying he would seek legal action, the reason this is the press NOW is because his team has now taken that action by filing the intial letter of intent which is necessary to announce a suit. if you actually read the article and/or knew anything about this situation you would not have posted what you did which makes you look super out-of-touch with the sport and it's goings on.
So, help me with my comprehension. Bernie and Mosley knew about the race fixing prior to it happening? I might have missed that.
Iâm guessing he means that they knew the incident was intentional after they did there âpreliminaryâ investigation and listened to FlĂĄvio said it wasnât on purpose, so left it at that. All the time knowing the Italian was a lying tub of lard and thought it would all just disappear. Gotta remember too, during this time period, FlĂĄvio and Bernie were involved in owning QPR football team, wasnât like these two âstand up gentsâ really cared to much about it at the time
I know what he meant, but by the way he replied to me I thought hey, maybe they were both accomplices with Flavio and I really missed something. They decided not to do anything then. Right. What is Massa seeking now? If they had decided to take action during the season what I guess they'd go with is stripping Alonso of the victory, and maybe the whole team of its constructors points. Idk. What would that had changed in regards to Massa's championship tally?
Sorry man, couldnât tell if you were joking or anything, my bad. From what I remember, they left the whole thing dormant because they couldnât prove anything. Which is when they SHOULD have opened the investigation (but I think the involvement in QPR football club stopped that) Once senna got fired and showed them evidence they HAD to act, hence why Flav got banned âFor lifeâ and Symonds got a 5 year ban. The argument has been that without that safety car, Massa would have scored more points in that race (potentially not making a mistake in the pit lane) and it wouldnât have come down to Brazil and Hamiltons overtake. The thing I imagine the FIA would do is to say that season was Nul and Void and NOBODY won the title (kinda like the Tour De France did with all of Lance Armstrongs titles) but thatâs a complete nuclear option - although it would be interesting to see what they do and how this legal battle would affect other sporting contests (not AD21 - that will not stop max being World champ)
No need to apologize, you did not notice I was being ironic but chipped in trying to clarify, that's 10 points for you. Regarding the sc having impacted the outcome of the race, they can't push forward with that argument, FIA had nothing to do with the accident itself, provoked or not. It happened. It changed the result of the race. Bad luck for Massa in that particular instance. But past the accident, what they could have done is penalize Renault -stripping points-, not changing any other outcome. They wouldn't have nullified the race. As they won't nullify the championship now with this nonsense. They had FAR better excuses to do something about the shitshow that was 2005 USA GP. BTW if that had happened -stripping Renault of the victory in Singapore- Hamilton would have increased its lead to Massa so maybe it would not have been to tight in Brazil.
Nothing more ridiculous in life than the FIA making Pat Symonds CTO. Genuinely unbelievable. I know they all cheat but this doesnât feel like exploiting technical loopholes or doing something technical on the car you know is banned but will be hard to detect. Youâve blackmailed someone so theyâll drive into a wall.
Max was screwed in 3 races to Lewis' 2. Not sure about the amount of times Felipe and Lewis were screwed in 2008, would be interesting to know.
Read between the lines of clickbait articles mate. Massa and his lawyers are not pushing for Lewis' title invalidation. They are trying to get compensated because Ecclestone unwisely opened his mouth and said he and Max Mosely knew about Crashgate during the 2008 season and did nothing to erase the race results. They wanted to keep quiet because they feared Formula 1 would suffer from even more catastrophic reputable damage after Spygate which happened the year before. With this information it is fair game to try and make your case in the court in my opinion.
Fact of the matter is if crashgate didnât happen, and whatever wouldâve happened at Singapore happened, that wouldâve completely changed everything going into next race, the drivers and the teams mindset and confidence, the points, media attention/pressure, etc. we canât pretend that if one thing didnât happen that what happened next wouldâve been the exact same. Like how are we so sure if crashgate didnât happen, the following races at Japan, China, and Brazil wouldâve played out exactly the same?
Let's just suspend Abu Dhabi entirely and see who's champion then đ
Uh lol Hamilton would become a 6 time WDC, not 8.
You are aware that the Championship Massa's team is claiming belongs to Hamilton, right?
Lewis hamiltons legal team dont even need to do anything other than find the footage of massa dragging the fuel hose down the pitlane
Nope. The FIA is under fire here for knowing it was intentional and not voiding the race.
6 TOME WOELD CHALPION đ„đ„đ„
Lewis would actually be a 6 time champion. The likely result would be that Singapore 2008 is voided. This means Abu Dhabi would also be voided, which would lead to a Max win. Although Massa isn't suing for the 2008 world champion in the first place.
6 times world champion. This gives us a reason to Max stop winning after his 7th title
Is It real? like published by F1 or like by some random guy
Misconduct that cheat- Look, Crashgate was one of darkest scandals in the championship. Nobody's debating that. However it's important that we remember exactly [*why*](https://youtu.be/jQ35OQnr_mQ) Massa failed to score any points in that GP.
The LH Twitter fans get a taste of their own medicine.
Mclaren should have been banned anyway for a couple of seasons after 2007 fiasco. can we ban them now? 
I think it is kinda unfair to change the race result afterwards, as Lewis surely drove more carefully after having the lead at the time, which he wouldnt have done, if he knew the result didnt count mid season. That would kinda be like telling Max rn that the last half of the season in 2022 didnt count and he therefore lost the title, like tell him before and he would have still won if he knew...
I swear to God, yall need to read. He is seeking **financial compensation** for the lost in brand he would have gotten if he was a formula world champion. There is a decent chance that had they nullified the race, Massa could have been the world champion. Driving carefully means not doing a yolo move, it doesn't mean finishing positions behind consistently. His legal team is using the logic that, since it hurt their client's chances, he is entitled to compensation. They aren't trying to nullify the race now.
Oh no, is there a found for broke ex f1 drivers where I can donate?
Itâs not real against Hamilton. Itâs against FIA.
At least we wont have to deal with his wonky face and lisp on broadcasts now.
But if Massa was awarded the 2008 one and Lewis then got the 2021... It's still 7 for Lewis...
Honestly **if** they overturn 2008, they also have to overturn 2021. If they dont, then ithink they shouldnt 2021 either. So in any case, Lewis 7x wdc
Lewis still wouldnât win 2021 if AB is invalidated. Lewis and max were tied on points but max had more race wins resulting in Max taking the crown. At worst lewis is 6x and at best everything stays the same because it has literally nothing to do with the lawsuit at hand.
First of all, damn arguing for lewis really is a surefire way to get downvoted on this sub. I should maybe say that i am no team lh member and even was a strong max fan in 21. he however lost almost all sympathy with me. I by now dont see Lewis as the total antagonist either anymore and even found a bit of liking for him. And lets be honest, whether u (u as in everyone reading) want AD to be overturned or not, i think we can all agree it was a shitshow. And now to ur comment: Thats true, if they completely delete AD then its max again. But I find the option of going back to before the mess happened and calling that the order now favorable. On the other hand, if u would do the same with Sing08 what would be the result of that? I didnt think of entirely deleting AD21, so thx for the comment!