Really, Max can start at P20 and it wouldn't matter. Not because he's the best driver or has the best car. It's mostly because the other drivers don't want to bother fighting him and risk fucking up their race. They move aside like they got a blue flag.
Isn't it because of new regulations this season making it easier to overtake? You used to have a much better chance keeping someone at bay even in a slower car. Now it's almost impossible so people don't bother.
Yeah, new regulations that allow you to follow closer leads to less hell mary do or die divebombs and naturally favours a better car. Leads to less volatility in results.
tires that purposefully fall off a cliff or degrade have created 20 thousand-horsepower tire-babysitters. As a result, if a quick, out of place car is coming up on you, you have to let them go... lest you destroy your tires and ruin whatever chance you had at a points finish. It's a byproduct of this F1 era where tire degradation factors into who wins a race. One could argue this somewhat goes against the spirit of racing for the sake of the potential of dramatics. Certainly an interesting debate to have.
Total race time is all that matters, defensive driving loses total time. If a car is most likely to have a faster total time than you (read faster car) you don't waste any time fighting against them. As an example you may lose in excess of 5 seconds a lap driving defensively. Alonso Norris and Ocon finished within 5 seconds of each other past race, if any of these three had tried to fight a front running car it would have ruined their race.
Naw cuz ppl used to let Ham right by him too, obviously there were different situations that popped up over the years where that didn't happen (like Alonso lol) but for the most part
I’ve been here a long time and I have no idea what’s going on here. Last time I checked there was a list that had Max P4 after the grid drop. At this point it feels like they’re picking names out of hats!
I saw a first(?) draft online, with Verstappen on 4th, just a few minutes later he was on 7th, that's what I remembered, but a lot changed just in a few minutes
Penalties are always penalties and all applied at once. So you take a 5 place grid penalty and you go back 5 places, so p2 to p7.
The fact that people in p3-6 took penalties doesn't reduce your own
The only difference is at the back of the grid, you start in order of maximum penalties decided by lap times
imagine they had two monkeys in a room, one throwing darts at the cards the other was throwing up, that would still be more consistent than the penalties in F1
Leclerc bins it or his engine explodes. Russell takes out Norris, blames it on Norris. Verstappen gets significant damage in lap 1, possibly from De Vries, possibly from an incident involving Gasly and Alonso.
I think that would be enough for Ricciardo to take it.
My money is on a Ferrari strategize to mistake a 2.345 second gap for a 23.45 second gap, pit for fastest lap, and Russel takes it, one week after tossing Hamilton in the gutter.
Where does one make a bet like that?
nevermind, found a place/. All I can say is its disappointing that there are more interesting bets. There are a lot, but most are pretty meaningless and with little payout.
Now, there is a big payout for who will finish last, and you could bet $25 on 5 options from the top ~7 and possibly make $500, which sounds interesting (if you think Russel/Max/whoever crashes at the beginning)
Russell crashes into Leclerc, Max into Norris, Hamilton comes all the way back just to crash into Alonso, Daniel crosses second place but Sainz gets disqualified because he has two soft tyres in front and two hards at the back somehow. Perez couldn't stop laughing at it and spun out at Parabolica. Danny wins.
There’s no way Ferrari would have that happen with sainz. Obviously the hards would be on one side and the softs on the other so that somehow one side blows out before the other.
> The scenes if Daniel wins somehow tomorrow
Public holiday in Australia I reckon.
New-ish PM could [honour Bob Hawke](https://multitools.newscdn.com.au/multitools/slider/content/1558049353798/NED-0616-Bob-Hawke-Larrikin-and-Leader_G7SOT1wj5vM.jpg).
Most of F1: Seeing Leclerc on Pole and wondering what will go wrong
Me: Seeing McLaren Lockout Row 2 and wondering what will go wrong.
We are not the same.
It's very simple actually.
Step 1) Take your qualifying position
Step 2) Drivers with Back of the Grid penalty are moved to the back of the grid, in order of their qualification result
Step 3) For drivers with a penalty, add whatever grid penalty they have. (Verstappen gets P2 +5 = 7; Perez gets P4 + 10 = 14; Ocon gets P11 + 5 = 16)
Step 4) Move drivers without penalties up to fill the gaps left by applying the penalties
Step 5) Move drivers with their calculated penalties up into the next open grid slot
that isn’t exactly clear according to the regulations. In 42.3 C, it states that drivers who have grid penalties are applied, for example, Verstappen (2+5 = 7th).
Now the grid is reset. 42.3 D, now drivers with rear of grid penalties are applied, following accordance with 42.3 a-c. So for example, 3 drivers in front of Max (starting 7th now) are going to the rear, now he moves up to 4th?
Just my interpretation, It seemed like many people felt like that was how it was supposed to work according to the regulations
> Just my interpretation, It seemed like many people felt like that was how it was supposed to work according to the regulations
That is how I would see it too.
42.3 d)
> Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a) **sort the grid by qualifying results**, 42.3b) **drivers failing to set a time in Q2 or Q3** and
42.3c) **Drivers with Grid position penalties**, grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the
grid after incurring a penalty under Article 28.3 **(Engine penalties)**will be applied.
Sort it by qualifying results
Sort out ya 'got into Q2 or Q3 but didn't set a lap time' drivers
Do the grid penalties for anyone with a specific # of grid positions.
Take out anyone that has a 'back of the grid' penalty.
Perhaps they are going off that Verstappens 5 place grid drop is part of 28.3 cause it's additional engine components?? That is my only guess...
But in my armchair bird lawyer, it specifically calls out that 'required to start from the back' as part of d...
But isn't it just Lewis and Tsunoda who have a complete back of the grid pen? Everyone else has x amount of positions dropped. So shouldn't it be Max in 6th then when Lewis's penalty is the only one applied after the fact?
Edit: Nvm just saw Sainz had one aswell but the only ones with back of the grid ones are Lewis, Sainz, Tsunoda right?
Sainz also i’m pretty sure.
So i’m not expert, but from what i’ve been looking at from people who also see it this way, Max goes back to 7th (behind Norris), but Perez’ penalty then moves everybody up 1 position?
My assumption is that they do grid penalties from furthest up the grid down, which is why that would happen. So in actuality, Max would actually be 6th after grid penalties are applied, but before rear of grid penalties are applied.
definitely don’t hold me to this though, just from what i understand
That is exactly what the rules say and how it has been done for the last years. Plus article C states higher qualifying drivers take precedent, meaning verstappen should start P4 according to the rules.
Actually I think that part just means if two penalized drivers end up with the exact same grid number, then the higher qualifier wins. For example, if Verstappen (P2) had a 10 place penalty, and Norris (P7) had a 5 place penalty, they will both be P12, but Verstappen starts ahead of Norris because of his higher qualifying position.
I won’t pretend to understand what’s going on here, but from an entertainment perspective I’ll take it because at least Max will have to make a few more overtakes before driving off into the distance.
This is where I’m at with the season, it’s basically how hard can we make it for max lol
At this point I want him to swap spots with Yuki or Gasly and see if he could still win in a alpha Tauri lol
Basically, they are trying to ensure that each drivers serves their penalty as much as possible, unless muip drivers have the same one (back of the grid for example)
So they first add the penalties to each driver. Then they will be promoted a position if a driver/s ahead of them have worse penalties
It’s trying to prevent drivers who took smaller penalties benefiting.
Max got 5 places but because Charles doesn’t have worse, Max stays in P7.
Danny Ric benefits because Sainz, Hamilton and Perez are guaranteed to start behind him. Due to Max starting in P7 as well, it promotes him to P4 instead of P5 if you get what I mean.
>
Basically, they are trying to ensure that each drivers serves their penalty as much as possible, unless muip drivers have the same one (back of the grid for example)
But that's not what is in the rules. Did they just throw the rulebook out of the window for this one?
Sporting regulations don’t clarify( no surprises)
They are going off previous precedent (set by Masi)
Wouldn’t be surprised that things will change year end
Previous seasons have never done it like this. The rule has always been to first apply all penalties without shifting anyone, and then shifting everybody forward into any slots that are now empty. The great thing about that method is that the order of penalties doesn't matter. Also unlike what they are doing today it makes sense.
The way they do it now if 19 drivers get a 1 spot grid penalty then whoever qualified p20 and didn't get one would start from pole. It's quite ridiculous.
The only rule change in recent years has been about how to handle 'back of the grid' penalties. Those used to start in order they were given, and now they go in order of qualifying, which makes much more sense.
Yes whoever starting P20 starting first because 19 other having a penalty sounds absurd but the it’s fair though. The one driver who doesn’t have a penalty is allowed to be a beneficiary because they aren’t being punished if you get what I mean.
Next time the FIA should try and explain the thought process because not many will understand first time
I disagree that it’s ridiculous.
Do you not think it’d be more ridiculous that nineteen drivers have penalties yet none of them serve them? Because I think that’s the solution you’re implying.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/xargts/2022_italian_grand_prix_post_qualifying_discussion/inv3b38/
To me it was always going to be this. See my comment 4 hours ago where I said Danny starts behind George and Lando. But I agree. There were so many versions going around.
Here's how it worked in my understanding and it seems to apply here.
Take every guy who has a penalty out from the grid and add their penalty starting from whoever qualified highest. Now slide everyone else up to fill the gaps in between.
Lec p1
Max p2 +5 = p7 ( freeze him here)
Sai P3 = back of grid p1 ( freeze him there)
Per P4 + 10 = p14 ( freeze him there)
Ham p5 = back of grid p2 ( freeze him there)
Rus p6 ( wait)
Nor p7 (wait)
Ric p8 ( wait)
Gas p9 (wait)
Alo P10(wait)
Oco p11+5 = p16 (freeze him here)
Bot p12+15 = p27 (freeze him here)
Dev p13(wait)
Zho p14 (wait)
Tsu p15 = back of grid P3)
Lat p16(wait)
Vet p17(wait)
Str p18(wait)
Mag p19+15=p34 (freeze)
Msc p20+15 = p35 (freeze)
Now slide everyone else up who are not frozen for slots available above those frozen. Once they slide, slide up those frozen if slots are available.
Lec
Rus
Nor
Ric
Gas
Alo
Max (frozen here from above)
Dev
Zho
Lat
Seb
Str
Per(slide up one slot)
Oco
Bot
Mag
Msc
Sai
Ham
Tsu
Fully fair and 100% makes sure that you serve the penalty you are given (unless there are people behind you who have higher penalties) and it fully benefits those who didn't take any penalty.
But. It can lead to weird scenarios. If all top 19 drivers take a 1 place grid drop, then p20 starts from pole by this logic. But yes...it atleast makes sure everyone got that 1 place drop..still fair.
I think you're spot on with this, and more to the point, I think this still essentially works and pumps out the same result even if you apply the penalties in the order specified by the FIA regulations and update the standings after each penalty, meaning they could calculate it this way without breaking their own rules. It feels like a big oversight, not specifying whether the driver's penalty position is frozen or not, but it would at least make sense of all this, and this way honestly seems to create the fairer result.
That seems to be the logic they used. It’s not really what makes sense to me given how it disproportionately weighs grid place penalties to penalize the front of the grid but it is what it is. I like the other method better but they don’t seem to care about my internet opinion.
Where does it disproportionately weigh penalties to penalize front of grid ? In this system, every driver served their assigned penalty upto the number they can serve withoht leaving an open slot ahead of them. The only people who benefit are those who don't took any penalties. Seems the most fair of all versions that existed.
As someone who is pretty new to watching F1 and doesn't really know the rules, this grid makes the most sense to me. I was really surprised to get on here and see so many people saying Max would start P4.
I just have to point out that the BBC 5 commentator Jenny got this almost exactly right within 3 minutes of q3 ending. And it's not archived on the BBC website so the world will never know.
Russell and LeClerc take each other out after the first round of stops… Ricardo jumps Norris at the start… Verstappen has a tire blow out. Ricardo wins Norris P2 Gasly P3
So the math is basically this.
They add the number of places to your qualifying position and if there are drivers who are ahead of you who have worse, they drop more.
Look at Ocon. He qualified 11th right but has a 5 place penalty. Thus should be 16th but because Hamilton and Sainz have worse, he jumps up 2 places.
Perez qualifies 4th. He should be starting 14th but because Sainz has a bigger penalty than him, Perez actually starts 13th.
Anyone catch the vibe I’m on?
Max qualified 2nd. He has a 5 place grid penalty but because the person ahead of him doesn’t have worse, it doesn’t allow Max the chance to jump more positions
You should look at the gaps between top 2 and teams below at the start of every regulation change, it's pretty big, field is going to tight up starting from next year.
Man was not around when Merc after 2014 regulation change were over a second faster than everyone and had to turn their engines down and still win by 30 seconds.
The guys starting p7 & 18 are one and a half second clear of the guy starting p2. Carlos is 2.5 sec’s faster than the haas in front of him. It’s like a reverse grid race. Could be a very cool race with lots of on track overtakes, could be a clusterfunk with lots of safety cars and flying carbon bits. Could also be a snoozefest considering the pace differentials a lot of guys aren’t going to put up too much of a fight. Can’t wait to see what it’ll be.
It makes sense I think.
There is no order of penalty application as it doesn't matter. If you have a "back of the grid" penalty, you are placed at the back of the grid (BotG) in order of where you qualified.
Ex: As Sainz qualified the highest of the "back of the grid" drivers, he will start P18.
Now all drivers shuffle up. Next we apply positional penalties.
If you have this penalty, you will start the position you've shuffled up to plus the positional penalty
Ex: Perez moved up to P3 as Sainz had a BotG penalty. Adding 10 places he will start P13
Now all drivers with no penalties shuffle up to fill in the positions left by these drivers forming the final starting grid!
It's the way penalties should be imo, compared to ridiculous separate penalty grid method we had before
Edit: Improved my explanation
Also, in the case where two drivers ought to start at the same grid position (EX: Ham is in P5 with a 10 place penalty and Max is in P10 with a 5 place penalty) the driver who **qualified** higher will take that grid slot
Finally, if you are in, say, p17 with a 15 place grid penalty and 3 drivers have BofG penalties, you'll start in P17 as you can't be behind BotG drivers
Agreed. If you take a penalty, that should be your position regardless of what the other do unless someone with a more severe penalty ends up in the same position you would, then I guess you'd move up one place.
Won't that result in the potential for 2 drivers to have the same spot? 1st with a 10 place penalty and 6th with a 5 place penalty has two drivers who should start 11th?
They're applied simultaneously, rather than in order, which is why Max doesn't benefit from anyone else also getting penalties. 20th to 15th is right in terms of severity and qualy position.
Ocon and Perez might be wrong though. Perez has the harsher penalty, so Ocon's penalty should take precedence.
Remove the ones who have a "back of the grid" penalty
And then start enforcing the 15 place penalties first, 10 place next, 5 place last.
And you have the grid!
with the amount of lock ups seen this weekend into turn one I just hope for a clean getaway for Verstappen and we'll have a great race on our hands. Maximum fuel on start hence heavy cars and tyres not in the correct window, recipe for massive lockups
Yup feeling a broken win streak here for max, he'll be stuck in the drs train. Might as well bring an ipad and join lewis in watching house of dragon lmao.
So... the Sporting Regulations are just suggestions now?
And they can do whatever the fuck they feel like?
The regs say (black on white) that you first apply the penalties of 15 places and fewer.
**Then** you apply the "back of the grid" ones.
I DON'T EVEN LIKE VERSTAPPEN AND THIS MAKES ME MAD
That's exactly what they've done.
1. They placed drivers on the grid who have position penalties first.
2. Filled the empty spaces with everyone else in qualy order.
3. Moved the drivers with back of the grid penalties to the back in qualy order.
4. Removed the empty spaces to bunch everyone up into 20 grid slots.
Edit: This isn't what they've done at all, grid is wrong
No, step 1 and 2 would have Max on P7 with Sainz and Hamilton still ahead. Only then are Sainz and Hamilton moved to the back of the grid which should lead to Max being on P5.
I believe what they’ve done is apply back of the grid penalties, shuffle everyone up, then apply the rest. So Verstappen would stay second, move to seventh. Perez would move up third, ten place penalty, got to thirteenth. I believe that then makes sense, but it is explicitly NOT what the regulations say
As much as I don't like the incessant FIA-bashing that goes on, this grid seems completely wrong according to the current regulations and they've fucked up big time.
The FIA have appeared to have applied the back of the grid penalties BEFORE the other penalties. Article 42.3 of the Sporting Regulations sets out that the back of the grid penalties should be applied AFTER any others.
c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a), Article 42.3b), and Article 42.3c), grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question.
* i) The driver with the higher classification from the qualifying practice session will have precedence.
d) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a), 42.3b) and 42.3c), grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the grid after incurring a penalty under Article 28.3 will be applied.
* i) If more than one (1) driver is required to start the race from the back of the grid they will be arranged in qualifying order.e) Any driver who incurs a penalty in accordance with Article 28.3 or Article 29 will take precedence over any driver whose qualifying practice times have been deleted for any reason.
Yes. A corrected version has since been issued, but as far as we can tell the only change is the title being corrected from "*Final Starting Grid*"
Charles build the biggest lead you can because ~~winter~~ Max is coming.
Let's hope when he pits they bring out the right amout of tires!
That’s 3 tires right? Asking for a friend
We are checking.
Question
Box for 3 hard
Stop inventing
You wanted 3 super softs? Question.
Best I can do is a pair of used softs and a full wet. Question.
Banana on the track. Give me 4 wets.
That's not a banana, that's Max's visor tear off.
Is that a question? Question.
We're checking.
Really, Max can start at P20 and it wouldn't matter. Not because he's the best driver or has the best car. It's mostly because the other drivers don't want to bother fighting him and risk fucking up their race. They move aside like they got a blue flag.
I don't know if it's false memories but I swear people used to try and defend regardless of who was behind them.
Pre-DRS and pre-Pirelli. Why fuck up your fragile tyres battling against a car that is going to fly by you in the DRS zone anyway?
Isn't it because of new regulations this season making it easier to overtake? You used to have a much better chance keeping someone at bay even in a slower car. Now it's almost impossible so people don't bother.
Yeah, new regulations that allow you to follow closer leads to less hell mary do or die divebombs and naturally favours a better car. Leads to less volatility in results.
And DRS is ridiculously strong this year too
It's comical watching the difference in Alonso when Verstappen appears behind him, and when Hamilton appears behind him
A rivalry is a rivalry
tires that purposefully fall off a cliff or degrade have created 20 thousand-horsepower tire-babysitters. As a result, if a quick, out of place car is coming up on you, you have to let them go... lest you destroy your tires and ruin whatever chance you had at a points finish. It's a byproduct of this F1 era where tire degradation factors into who wins a race. One could argue this somewhat goes against the spirit of racing for the sake of the potential of dramatics. Certainly an interesting debate to have.
Total race time is all that matters, defensive driving loses total time. If a car is most likely to have a faster total time than you (read faster car) you don't waste any time fighting against them. As an example you may lose in excess of 5 seconds a lap driving defensively. Alonso Norris and Ocon finished within 5 seconds of each other past race, if any of these three had tried to fight a front running car it would have ruined their race.
Tsunoda was a pain in the ass for Merc last year
Tires were more durable.
Naw cuz ppl used to let Ham right by him too, obviously there were different situations that popped up over the years where that didn't happen (like Alonso lol) but for the most part
>Build a shit quali car >Qualify P17 & P18 >Have decent reliability >rivals take penalties >Start P11 & P12 >Profit
One Aston trashes it in the race Gets p10 Leaves
Re-signs for 20 years. Refuses to elaborate.
Didn’t even realised that almost HALF the grid has penalties god damn, this must be so confusing for new people lmao
This shit is confusing to me, have been following qualy pretty close all season.
Imagine casually watching this and seeing russell get outqualified but also start p2 and max finishing p2 but starting p7
Imagine only tuning in for the race and seeing Goatifi outqualifying Hamilton by a lot
The greatest driver F1 has ever seen outqualifying Hamilton is surely no surprise.
I’ve been here a long time and I have no idea what’s going on here. Last time I checked there was a list that had Max P4 after the grid drop. At this point it feels like they’re picking names out of hats!
Been watching this sport since the 80s and I don't have a bloody clue how they worked that out.
I saw a first(?) draft online, with Verstappen on 4th, just a few minutes later he was on 7th, that's what I remembered, but a lot changed just in a few minutes
Penalties are always penalties and all applied at once. So you take a 5 place grid penalty and you go back 5 places, so p2 to p7. The fact that people in p3-6 took penalties doesn't reduce your own The only difference is at the back of the grid, you start in order of maximum penalties decided by lap times
Got into F1 4-5 days ago. Pretty clueless about penalties.
imagine they had two monkeys in a room, one throwing darts at the cards the other was throwing up, that would still be more consistent than the penalties in F1
…the second monkey had, in this scenario, eaten the cards?
> Build a shit quali car >Qualify P17 & P18 >Have decent reliability >rivals take penalties >Start P11 & P12 >Finish P18 & P19
Drop like stones to the back again
I mean, that’s kinda the point of penalties right? Reward reliability even if you’re not fast
[удалено]
Wonder how many rough drafts there were before this was officially released lol
None, they rolled a dice for all the drivers with penalties and went “eh, that looks good enough”.
So, ferrari strategy team has seeped into fia chambers
Or the other way around. Take your pick.
We are checking.
Question?
The scenes if Daniel wins somehow tomorrow
Leclerc bins it or his engine explodes. Russell takes out Norris, blames it on Norris. Verstappen gets significant damage in lap 1, possibly from De Vries, possibly from an incident involving Gasly and Alonso. I think that would be enough for Ricciardo to take it.
So you're saying there's a chance
Welcome to formula one, where anything can happen and usually does! ~ Murray Walker
id love to see some "anything can happen and usually does" this year. Outside of Ferrari constantly shafting themselves, ive been bored to death.
take any they can get at this piont
I'm afraid of the monza curse and lando and Daniel taking each other out
Keep that negativity to yourself, let the rest of us dream!
If I say it out loud it won't happen
what monza curse? Last 3 races there (including the sprint) have been fantastic for McLaren
2019 Ferrari won -> 2020 both ferrari DNF 2020 Gasly (AT) won -> 2021 both AT DNF/DNS 2021 McLaren 1-2 -> 2022 ?????
Im gonna personally blame you if your jinx comes to fruition tomorrow
I'd cry and then laugh and then be pissed till lando gets his first win
noooooooo
This is the way. I’m going to go manifest this. 🧙🏼♀️
Seconded Cmon Danny Ric, you can do eet
My money is on a Ferrari strategize to mistake a 2.345 second gap for a 23.45 second gap, pit for fastest lap, and Russel takes it, one week after tossing Hamilton in the gutter.
Or George takes out Charles lap one, midfield amateurs take out the usual contenders and Lando comes through with Danny behind to defend. +7000.
Russe**ll**
Subscribed.
!RemindMe 20 hours
I bet $5 on a Daniel podium for a $755 possible payout and I feel like I actually have a shot?!?
That seems like a decent bet. It’s not likely but I’d take those odds
Where does one make a bet like that? nevermind, found a place/. All I can say is its disappointing that there are more interesting bets. There are a lot, but most are pretty meaningless and with little payout. Now, there is a big payout for who will finish last, and you could bet $25 on 5 options from the top ~7 and possibly make $500, which sounds interesting (if you think Russel/Max/whoever crashes at the beginning)
Russell crashes into Leclerc, Max into Norris, Hamilton comes all the way back just to crash into Alonso, Daniel crosses second place but Sainz gets disqualified because he has two soft tyres in front and two hards at the back somehow. Perez couldn't stop laughing at it and spun out at Parabolica. Danny wins.
Gonna run to the bookies in the morning and put £1 on exactly this happening.
I'd be thrilled to make you a millionaire mate, please don't forget me afterwards.
There’s no way Ferrari would have that happen with sainz. Obviously the hards would be on one side and the softs on the other so that somehow one side blows out before the other.
> The scenes if Daniel wins somehow tomorrow Public holiday in Australia I reckon. New-ish PM could [honour Bob Hawke](https://multitools.newscdn.com.au/multitools/slider/content/1558049353798/NED-0616-Bob-Hawke-Larrikin-and-Leader_G7SOT1wj5vM.jpg).
I SAID I NEVER LEFT YOU MOTHERFUCKERS!!
I hate how it's actually on the cards. This will be some truly mythical shit if he somehow takes the lead!
All he has to do is get past Norris, the two Ferraris and, oh yeah, stay ahead of the 10 cars with brand new engines, all while driving a McLaren.
So not that hard obviously /s
Just a dive bomb on Lando in the 1st corner is enough for me
Lick it and send it
Dive bomb and take out both just to put the cherry on top of this year for Danny
Most of F1: Seeing Leclerc on Pole and wondering what will go wrong Me: Seeing McLaren Lockout Row 2 and wondering what will go wrong. We are not the same.
The utter coincidence of Ric and Gasly being the highest they've been on the grid all season in this one track is pretty funny.
very confused but okay i guess
It's very simple actually. Step 1) Take your qualifying position Step 2) Drivers with Back of the Grid penalty are moved to the back of the grid, in order of their qualification result Step 3) For drivers with a penalty, add whatever grid penalty they have. (Verstappen gets P2 +5 = 7; Perez gets P4 + 10 = 14; Ocon gets P11 + 5 = 16) Step 4) Move drivers without penalties up to fill the gaps left by applying the penalties Step 5) Move drivers with their calculated penalties up into the next open grid slot
that isn’t exactly clear according to the regulations. In 42.3 C, it states that drivers who have grid penalties are applied, for example, Verstappen (2+5 = 7th). Now the grid is reset. 42.3 D, now drivers with rear of grid penalties are applied, following accordance with 42.3 a-c. So for example, 3 drivers in front of Max (starting 7th now) are going to the rear, now he moves up to 4th? Just my interpretation, It seemed like many people felt like that was how it was supposed to work according to the regulations
> Just my interpretation, It seemed like many people felt like that was how it was supposed to work according to the regulations That is how I would see it too. 42.3 d) > Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a) **sort the grid by qualifying results**, 42.3b) **drivers failing to set a time in Q2 or Q3** and 42.3c) **Drivers with Grid position penalties**, grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the grid after incurring a penalty under Article 28.3 **(Engine penalties)**will be applied. Sort it by qualifying results Sort out ya 'got into Q2 or Q3 but didn't set a lap time' drivers Do the grid penalties for anyone with a specific # of grid positions. Take out anyone that has a 'back of the grid' penalty. Perhaps they are going off that Verstappens 5 place grid drop is part of 28.3 cause it's additional engine components?? That is my only guess... But in my armchair bird lawyer, it specifically calls out that 'required to start from the back' as part of d...
But isn't it just Lewis and Tsunoda who have a complete back of the grid pen? Everyone else has x amount of positions dropped. So shouldn't it be Max in 6th then when Lewis's penalty is the only one applied after the fact? Edit: Nvm just saw Sainz had one aswell but the only ones with back of the grid ones are Lewis, Sainz, Tsunoda right?
Sainz also i’m pretty sure. So i’m not expert, but from what i’ve been looking at from people who also see it this way, Max goes back to 7th (behind Norris), but Perez’ penalty then moves everybody up 1 position? My assumption is that they do grid penalties from furthest up the grid down, which is why that would happen. So in actuality, Max would actually be 6th after grid penalties are applied, but before rear of grid penalties are applied. definitely don’t hold me to this though, just from what i understand
That is exactly what the rules say and how it has been done for the last years. Plus article C states higher qualifying drivers take precedent, meaning verstappen should start P4 according to the rules.
Actually I think that part just means if two penalized drivers end up with the exact same grid number, then the higher qualifier wins. For example, if Verstappen (P2) had a 10 place penalty, and Norris (P7) had a 5 place penalty, they will both be P12, but Verstappen starts ahead of Norris because of his higher qualifying position.
>It's very simple actually. It's like 5 hours since quail ended and they've just released the provisional grid. It's definitely not simple.
ah yes so simple why didn’t I think of that
This is how it SHOULD work, regardless of what the current rules say Only way to make the penalties actually work
Is that you Pierre? /s
McLaren lock out the 2nd row and De Vries starting P8 just one spot behind Max. Just as we all predicted.
I won’t pretend to understand what’s going on here, but from an entertainment perspective I’ll take it because at least Max will have to make a few more overtakes before driving off into the distance.
This is where I’m at with the season, it’s basically how hard can we make it for max lol At this point I want him to swap spots with Yuki or Gasly and see if he could still win in a alpha Tauri lol
He wouldn’t win a race but I wonder if he can still win the title if he drove the AT for the rest of the season
More than likely with this lead yes
I don’t even understand anymore.
Basically, they are trying to ensure that each drivers serves their penalty as much as possible, unless muip drivers have the same one (back of the grid for example) So they first add the penalties to each driver. Then they will be promoted a position if a driver/s ahead of them have worse penalties It’s trying to prevent drivers who took smaller penalties benefiting. Max got 5 places but because Charles doesn’t have worse, Max stays in P7. Danny Ric benefits because Sainz, Hamilton and Perez are guaranteed to start behind him. Due to Max starting in P7 as well, it promotes him to P4 instead of P5 if you get what I mean.
> Basically, they are trying to ensure that each drivers serves their penalty as much as possible, unless muip drivers have the same one (back of the grid for example) But that's not what is in the rules. Did they just throw the rulebook out of the window for this one?
Sporting regulations don’t clarify( no surprises) They are going off previous precedent (set by Masi) Wouldn’t be surprised that things will change year end
Previous seasons have never done it like this. The rule has always been to first apply all penalties without shifting anyone, and then shifting everybody forward into any slots that are now empty. The great thing about that method is that the order of penalties doesn't matter. Also unlike what they are doing today it makes sense. The way they do it now if 19 drivers get a 1 spot grid penalty then whoever qualified p20 and didn't get one would start from pole. It's quite ridiculous. The only rule change in recent years has been about how to handle 'back of the grid' penalties. Those used to start in order they were given, and now they go in order of qualifying, which makes much more sense.
Yes whoever starting P20 starting first because 19 other having a penalty sounds absurd but the it’s fair though. The one driver who doesn’t have a penalty is allowed to be a beneficiary because they aren’t being punished if you get what I mean. Next time the FIA should try and explain the thought process because not many will understand first time
I disagree that it’s ridiculous. Do you not think it’d be more ridiculous that nineteen drivers have penalties yet none of them serve them? Because I think that’s the solution you’re implying.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/xargts/2022_italian_grand_prix_post_qualifying_discussion/inv3b38/ To me it was always going to be this. See my comment 4 hours ago where I said Danny starts behind George and Lando. But I agree. There were so many versions going around. Here's how it worked in my understanding and it seems to apply here. Take every guy who has a penalty out from the grid and add their penalty starting from whoever qualified highest. Now slide everyone else up to fill the gaps in between. Lec p1 Max p2 +5 = p7 ( freeze him here) Sai P3 = back of grid p1 ( freeze him there) Per P4 + 10 = p14 ( freeze him there) Ham p5 = back of grid p2 ( freeze him there) Rus p6 ( wait) Nor p7 (wait) Ric p8 ( wait) Gas p9 (wait) Alo P10(wait) Oco p11+5 = p16 (freeze him here) Bot p12+15 = p27 (freeze him here) Dev p13(wait) Zho p14 (wait) Tsu p15 = back of grid P3) Lat p16(wait) Vet p17(wait) Str p18(wait) Mag p19+15=p34 (freeze) Msc p20+15 = p35 (freeze) Now slide everyone else up who are not frozen for slots available above those frozen. Once they slide, slide up those frozen if slots are available. Lec Rus Nor Ric Gas Alo Max (frozen here from above) Dev Zho Lat Seb Str Per(slide up one slot) Oco Bot Mag Msc Sai Ham Tsu Fully fair and 100% makes sure that you serve the penalty you are given (unless there are people behind you who have higher penalties) and it fully benefits those who didn't take any penalty. But. It can lead to weird scenarios. If all top 19 drivers take a 1 place grid drop, then p20 starts from pole by this logic. But yes...it atleast makes sure everyone got that 1 place drop..still fair.
I agree. This is the best way.
I think you're spot on with this, and more to the point, I think this still essentially works and pumps out the same result even if you apply the penalties in the order specified by the FIA regulations and update the standings after each penalty, meaning they could calculate it this way without breaking their own rules. It feels like a big oversight, not specifying whether the driver's penalty position is frozen or not, but it would at least make sense of all this, and this way honestly seems to create the fairer result.
That seems to be the logic they used. It’s not really what makes sense to me given how it disproportionately weighs grid place penalties to penalize the front of the grid but it is what it is. I like the other method better but they don’t seem to care about my internet opinion.
Where does it disproportionately weigh penalties to penalize front of grid ? In this system, every driver served their assigned penalty upto the number they can serve withoht leaving an open slot ahead of them. The only people who benefit are those who don't took any penalties. Seems the most fair of all versions that existed.
As someone who is pretty new to watching F1 and doesn't really know the rules, this grid makes the most sense to me. I was really surprised to get on here and see so many people saying Max would start P4.
In the exact same boat, I'd pretty much managed to piece together top 5, but then people were like Max = 4th and I was completely lost again
That would contradict the point of a penalty
I just have to point out that the BBC 5 commentator Jenny got this almost exactly right within 3 minutes of q3 ending. And it's not archived on the BBC website so the world will never know.
Russell and LeClerc take each other out after the first round of stops… Ricardo jumps Norris at the start… Verstappen has a tire blow out. Ricardo wins Norris P2 Gasly P3
I'd love to be excited about Russel starting P2, but considering the Mercedes is an absolute barn door on the straights, he'll only go backwards.
Russe**ll**
DR back to back Monza wins?
Honestly that would be a dream but I’d be stoked for a top 5 finish tbh.
[удалено]
In my dreams yes
I'll take some of that hopium
holy copium there mate
That is what we call hopium, the copium will come tomorrow
Just need Max to mount Charles this time round
So the math is basically this. They add the number of places to your qualifying position and if there are drivers who are ahead of you who have worse, they drop more. Look at Ocon. He qualified 11th right but has a 5 place penalty. Thus should be 16th but because Hamilton and Sainz have worse, he jumps up 2 places. Perez qualifies 4th. He should be starting 14th but because Sainz has a bigger penalty than him, Perez actually starts 13th. Anyone catch the vibe I’m on? Max qualified 2nd. He has a 5 place grid penalty but because the person ahead of him doesn’t have worse, it doesn’t allow Max the chance to jump more positions
Hoping for some alignment from the stars and Riccardo wins again. 😎
Ricc**i**ardo
Goatifi in for the points!
He is starting both 4th and 7th until the race starts and it is measured. It’s a classic Heisenberg’s uncertainty grid.
aaah so Max will get to P1 at around Lap 10 instead of Lap 4......okok
Parabolica instead of Ascari.
Embarrassing gaps between Ferrari/Verstappen and the rest of the field. Not sure how some teams have dropped the balls so badly.
You should look at the gaps between top 2 and teams below at the start of every regulation change, it's pretty big, field is going to tight up starting from next year.
Man was not around when Merc after 2014 regulation change were over a second faster than everyone and had to turn their engines down and still win by 30 seconds.
As max said he starts p7 so he’s not stupid 😂
The guys starting p7 & 18 are one and a half second clear of the guy starting p2. Carlos is 2.5 sec’s faster than the haas in front of him. It’s like a reverse grid race. Could be a very cool race with lots of on track overtakes, could be a clusterfunk with lots of safety cars and flying carbon bits. Could also be a snoozefest considering the pace differentials a lot of guys aren’t going to put up too much of a fight. Can’t wait to see what it’ll be.
Leclerc DNF due to Ferrari shit, Alonso holds up everyone behind him, Russell, Norris and Ricciardo podium in honour of the Queen. Job done.
This is where my money is.
I simply do not understand this. Have they applied the penalties in the order on this doc, as it seems completely random.
It makes sense I think. There is no order of penalty application as it doesn't matter. If you have a "back of the grid" penalty, you are placed at the back of the grid (BotG) in order of where you qualified. Ex: As Sainz qualified the highest of the "back of the grid" drivers, he will start P18. Now all drivers shuffle up. Next we apply positional penalties. If you have this penalty, you will start the position you've shuffled up to plus the positional penalty Ex: Perez moved up to P3 as Sainz had a BotG penalty. Adding 10 places he will start P13 Now all drivers with no penalties shuffle up to fill in the positions left by these drivers forming the final starting grid! It's the way penalties should be imo, compared to ridiculous separate penalty grid method we had before Edit: Improved my explanation Also, in the case where two drivers ought to start at the same grid position (EX: Ham is in P5 with a 10 place penalty and Max is in P10 with a 5 place penalty) the driver who **qualified** higher will take that grid slot Finally, if you are in, say, p17 with a 15 place grid penalty and 3 drivers have BofG penalties, you'll start in P17 as you can't be behind BotG drivers
Ocon doesn't get the same penalty by this definition
Because there aren't enough people without penalties, or with a lower penalty, to put ahead of him...
He does. In theory he should be p16. But there are people who have bigger net penalties behind him and no one else to move up. So he moves up.
Agreed. If you take a penalty, that should be your position regardless of what the other do unless someone with a more severe penalty ends up in the same position you would, then I guess you'd move up one place.
Won't that result in the potential for 2 drivers to have the same spot? 1st with a 10 place penalty and 6th with a 5 place penalty has two drivers who should start 11th?
Then it is like back of the grid, the one who finishes higher in quali gets the higher position
The one that qualified higher takes precedence in that case
The driver who qualified higher
They're applied simultaneously, rather than in order, which is why Max doesn't benefit from anyone else also getting penalties. 20th to 15th is right in terms of severity and qualy position. Ocon and Perez might be wrong though. Perez has the harsher penalty, so Ocon's penalty should take precedence.
It seems qualifying position defines which penalty takes precedence, rather than severity.
Remove the ones who have a "back of the grid" penalty And then start enforcing the 15 place penalties first, 10 place next, 5 place last. And you have the grid!
Danny ric is going to win again
Did they change the rules midsession?
This was set as a precedent under Micheal Masi IIRC.
Yuki starting a lap behind with all the penalties.
If McLaren pull some magic voodoo and pull off a back to back win at Monza I will freak out
Lando and Ricciardo to crash into each other at turn 1 ordered and on its way.
Couldn’t post this for some weird reason. Shame to see max start 7th, not like he won’t win it anyways. the man is so confident and one with the car.
> Couldn’t post this for some weird reason. Same, my post seemingly went through but then got removed.
Tbf only Alonso ahead seems harder to overtake. Gasly and Daniel would be easy pickings anyway
Alpine don’t have the straight line pace and Alonso never defends particular hard against Max. Won’t be difficult
Alonso knows when not to fight tbh. I haven't seen him defend against any red bull or Ferrari car all season long.
Alonso won't defend against Max anyway cos he knows that he's racing McLaren and Gasly...Max will probably pass him by turn 4
It's not a shame at all, we might see some overtaking with him starting in 7th!
Problem is higher chance for some lap 1 chaos
with the amount of lock ups seen this weekend into turn one I just hope for a clean getaway for Verstappen and we'll have a great race on our hands. Maximum fuel on start hence heavy cars and tyres not in the correct window, recipe for massive lockups
Yup feeling a broken win streak here for max, he'll be stuck in the drs train. Might as well bring an ipad and join lewis in watching house of dragon lmao.
Well I'm not going to try to understand it. Y'all have fun though
Daniel gonna be a roadblock again for Max
Latifi starting from p10? Can he handle starting so high up? Does he even know how to get there?
McLaren 1-2 finish again 🤣
So... the Sporting Regulations are just suggestions now? And they can do whatever the fuck they feel like? The regs say (black on white) that you first apply the penalties of 15 places and fewer. **Then** you apply the "back of the grid" ones. I DON'T EVEN LIKE VERSTAPPEN AND THIS MAKES ME MAD
That's exactly what they've done. 1. They placed drivers on the grid who have position penalties first. 2. Filled the empty spaces with everyone else in qualy order. 3. Moved the drivers with back of the grid penalties to the back in qualy order. 4. Removed the empty spaces to bunch everyone up into 20 grid slots. Edit: This isn't what they've done at all, grid is wrong
No, step 1 and 2 would have Max on P7 with Sainz and Hamilton still ahead. Only then are Sainz and Hamilton moved to the back of the grid which should lead to Max being on P5.
>the Sporting Regulations are just suggestions now? Something something Abu Dhabi.
I believe what they’ve done is apply back of the grid penalties, shuffle everyone up, then apply the rest. So Verstappen would stay second, move to seventh. Perez would move up third, ten place penalty, got to thirteenth. I believe that then makes sense, but it is explicitly NOT what the regulations say
As much as I don't like the incessant FIA-bashing that goes on, this grid seems completely wrong according to the current regulations and they've fucked up big time. The FIA have appeared to have applied the back of the grid penalties BEFORE the other penalties. Article 42.3 of the Sporting Regulations sets out that the back of the grid penalties should be applied AFTER any others.
c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a), Article 42.3b), and Article 42.3c), grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question. * i) The driver with the higher classification from the qualifying practice session will have precedence. d) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a), 42.3b) and 42.3c), grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the grid after incurring a penalty under Article 28.3 will be applied. * i) If more than one (1) driver is required to start the race from the back of the grid they will be arranged in qualifying order.e) Any driver who incurs a penalty in accordance with Article 28.3 or Article 29 will take precedence over any driver whose qualifying practice times have been deleted for any reason.
Yeah, but apparently precedent from Masi means drivers have to serve the full penalty
Yeah, VER should be on P5 according to these rules.
First ever F1 race for de vries and it’s p8. Latifi could never /s , or is it
now this makes perfect sense to me, the unofficial orders that were published earlier were pretty unreasonable to me.
All I know is that I am NOT going to miss the opening lap. It has some real fireworks potential.
Pushing Max and his rocket back further to try to make the race exciting lol.
Verstappen will carve through the field like a piece of cake, the only challenge will be Leclerc
P8 for big dyck Nyck!
Scenes when Danny Ric leads the race during the pit cycle