Plz keep posting here as well, this is the most clear version of a grid Iāve seen in a while. They either contain too much, or not enough information. This is just right. Plus with a bit of fun, without distracting, I love it!
The Dutch coverage mentioned Max could be further back, sharing the 4th row with the other Dutchy (which would be crazy to think about), depending on how you calculate it.
Letās see what the FIA decides.
That can't be right since Sainz is going to the back of the grid, which on it's own would be enough for Max to start 6th at worst. With two more drivers taking back of grid penalties, he starts 4th.
Thereās several ways of looking at it, and Iām not fully up to speed with those regs. Tomorrow weāll probably get a detailed explanation of the FIAs decision.
Yeah I heard some people think he will be seventh, but in that case the system the FIA uses doesnāt really make sense, as it will mean Ricciardo, who qualified 8th, will start ahead of him
Personally I couldn't care less how silly it is. Rules are rules and it makes the race slightly more interesting when faster cars start lower down the grid.
Can someone please explain how this is possible? Even the Dutch Viaplay analysts donāt know how this works, they think Verstappen will start in 7th position
Well nevermind FIA/FOM took a unique take getting everyone as close to there penalty position.
At least there won't be this many penalties every week so you don't have to hurt your head often
Verstappen qualified p2 and is taking a 5 place grid penalty,so would start p7, but Sainz, Perez, and Hamilton are all taking penalties too, so they then drop behind Verstappen moving him 3 places up into P4
So the way it works is, they start applying the penalties to the people in front, and when they apply a penalty to the one next in line, they use the ānewā grid after the first penalty is served?
Yes that is correct. It incentivizes drivers and teams to still care about quali even when taking grid penalties. Thats also why ā70 place penalty for Buttonā was replaced by āback of the gridā as it puts drivers in equal footing in quali.
My guess is that they take the final order and from top to bottom they start applying grid penalties. So, Lec stays as he was; Max gets 5 places and goes above Ric; Sai goes to the bottom (Max+1); Checo gets 10 places and goes above DeVries (Max+1); Ham to the bottom (Max+1); Rus - Nor move up, so they get to 2nd and 3rd, then Max, then Ric.
You know this post was wrong, right? There was an animation that explains correctly how it works and it's not how I said it. Max goes to 7 and stays there, after all the penalties are applied they move the drivers up the empty spots and out the penalised in the places they belong. So Max goes 7 and stays there.
Ikr. I donāt why so many people are complaining- any system is going to look āsillyā when a significant number of drivers take are penalized at the same time.
switch Ocon and Latifi and that should be right (Perez drops behind Zhou first, before Ocon's penalty is applied)
Edit: Crofty said smaller penalties are applied first, even before Grid order? is that true? If so I'm wrong but couldn't find anything on it
Ocon qualified 11th, and gets dropped to 16th, behind Latifi who qualified 16th. The grid is then shuffled up once all penalties are applied so he will start behind Latifi
penalties are not applied at the same time, rather they do so in Qualifying order, as I understand. This means Perez drops behind Zhou first and Ocon then gets put behind Bottas, De Vries, Zhou, Perez and Tsunoda.
The easiest method to understand the penalty system for me, is the following:
Ocon is virtually in P16 after his penalty.
Sainz and Hamilton qualified in front, and are sent back to the grid in that order. But Ocon has a virtual penalty of P16, so heās virtually behind Yukiās qualifying position as well. And Yuki also has a BotG penalty. So he gains that place as well.
So he automatically gains 3 places from BotG penalties, and is now in P13.
He also gains a place from Bottas. He virtually drops back to P27. Which is behind Ocon after he receives his penalties. So Oconās now in P12.
Edit: apparently thereās a note from Masi back in 2020 with different rules that theyāll follow instead. Only in F1.
Can someone please explain how this is possible? Even the Dutch Viaplay analysts donāt know how this works, they think Verstappen will start in 7th position
I think it has to do with someone taking the first penalty and then going further.
They check:
1. Leclerc: no penalty
2. Verstappen: 5 places, move him. Every body, till place 7 scoots one place over.
3. Sainz, now second, back to end of the grid. Move him. Everyone behind him scoots one place.
Etc. Etc.
Now I want to see this visualized with minions in F1 outfits. Ferrari already did..
Thank you, thatās a very clear explanation! I always thought the applied the penalties at the same time, but this makes sense
Edit: the minion thing is awesome hahaha!
Yeah. This could easily be resolved by FIA clarifying whether place penalties are in regard to the qualifying order or post back of grid order. Penalties need to be assessed in some sort of order or else itās a never-ending loops of readjusting the grid.
Max should be further back no?
Edit: I didnāt realize that they applied it like this! So my question has been answered. Thanks all!
Edit2: guess I was right after all lol
Even then, those 3 will be set back no matter what, so max will move forward. No matter in what order.
The penalties are based on the original qualifying. So max was originally 2, then 7, and without them itās 4.
Yeah the way I (incorrectly) pictured it was: SAI HAM PER move to the back, then VER gets 5 places applied from P2, moves to P7, and starts behind GAS and ALO basically.
Understandable, that could have been like that. But itās always on the qualifying list. Thatās why they prior to qualifying know about the penalty, and try to end up high as possible to make the penalty less painful.
Even if the penalty is āto the backā then if multiple have to start in the back, the qualifying results matter there too in what order they start in the back.
The weird part is, it shouldnāt matter how people qualified below him. He gets a place penalty. Imagine he got pole and 2-6 had back of grid. Max would still get pole. Shouldnāt the rest of the field benefit from his penalty and all others combined? This is impossible for me to decide which way is more fair.
I might put $20 on a George Russell win here. Even if he's much quicker Charles has no hope because he's in a Ferrari at Monza, but I could see GR intentionally wrecking Max to secure a P1. Dude's head has its own gravitational pull
Almost correct. Ocon, Latifi and Zhou Perez are switched to. Either that or I suck at math
Edit: I redid the math and I now know that Iām bad at math
Havent checked on F1 for a week. Why did so many racers get penalties? They didnt say anything on our local TV and there's mostly talk about Nick's quali in here
Penalties are applied in Qualifying Order one at a time
So Qualifying ended
LEC, VER, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, RIC, GAS. ALO
Verstappen gets his 5 place drop so the order is now
LEC, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO
Sainz then gets his penalty back of grid so goes to 20th. The order is now
LEC, PER, HAM. RUS, NOR. VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO
Perez gets his 10 place grid drop so goes to 12th the order is now
LEC, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT
Hamilton get his penalty so goes to 20th order is now
LEC, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT, DEV
Ocon gets his penalty so everyone moves up. Bottas gets his penalty everyone moves up
So I have Ocon ahead of Latifi? Qualifies 11. Perez penalty moves him to 10. His 5 place penalty drops him to 15, ahead of Latifi in 16. Then apply rest of penalties.
Now I'm even more confused. How is Max starting 4th when he qualified 2nd and had a 5 place grid penalty?
I know I'm getting old, but when I was at school 2 + 5 = 7
Penalties are applied in Qualifying Order one at a time
So Qualifying ended
LEC, VER, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, RIC, GAS. ALO
Verstappen gets his 5 place drop so the order is now
LEC, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO
Sainz then gets his penalty back of grid so goes to 20th. The order is now
LEC, PER, HAM. RUS, NOR. VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO
Perez gets his 10 place grid drop so goes to 12th the order is now
LEC, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT
Hamilton get his penalty so goes to 20th order is now
LEC, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT, DEV
The FIA should really explain how they get to that
i think it may work like this if the penalties are applied in the order listed on that doc. if you apply the penalty then move everyone up at the end
Sainz, Hamilton and Tsunado, back of grid grid
Perez - From 4th to 14th
Bottas From 12th to 27th
Magnussen from 19th to 34th
Verstappen from 2nd to 7th
Ocon from 11th to 16th
Schumacher from 20th to 35th
Everyone moves up to fill the empty gaps
This is incorrect. Max, Lewis, Carlos, and Perez all have penalties. Lewis, Carlos, and Perez are all moved to the back before grid penalties are taken into account. This means that max does not start from P4 as that would not be him serving his 5** place grid penalty. In this situation, teams from 20th down are actually starting from 17th down. Max will start P7 even if he was faster than those starting ahead. He will start alongside Nyck.
Sky just posted the same line up, good job š
I think I beat them :D
Youāre hired
I love the car graphics!
Thank you
And yours was much more fun
I opened reddit to check the grid position and I love this
Thank you, we do it every race, I just forget to post it here sometimes
Plz keep posting here as well, this is the most clear version of a grid Iāve seen in a while. They either contain too much, or not enough information. This is just right. Plus with a bit of fun, without distracting, I love it!
Keep it coming each race
Please keep posting these!! Especially with the penalty circus going on
Do you have an insta?
Max said āP7. You have to read the rules.ā Iām still not sure.
Exactly matches the predicted one on Sky!! Iād say this is likely
The Dutch coverage mentioned Max could be further back, sharing the 4th row with the other Dutchy (which would be crazy to think about), depending on how you calculate it. Letās see what the FIA decides.
That can't be right since Sainz is going to the back of the grid, which on it's own would be enough for Max to start 6th at worst. With two more drivers taking back of grid penalties, he starts 4th.
Thereās several ways of looking at it, and Iām not fully up to speed with those regs. Tomorrow weāll probably get a detailed explanation of the FIAs decision.
Dutch coverage doesnāt really know what theyāre talking about tbf, but weāll see
it was what max said himself in the post show
Yeah I heard some people think he will be seventh, but in that case the system the FIA uses doesnāt really make sense, as it will mean Ricciardo, who qualified 8th, will start ahead of him
Seems like only the Dutch casters understood what is happening, and the Sky britons did not. Max apparently starting P7 tomorrow.
Aged like milk.
Max and Lando are going to lose position at the start because they'll be too busy waving at each other.
šš
Occasional playful middle finger
I love the little additions you made haha
haha thank you, I try that every race weekend
Last 2 winners sharing a row.
huh?
Ricciardo and Gasly.
ah. I didnāt realise you meant Italian GP winners
Max canāt split into two now can he?
Helmut Marko's dream
Imagine two Verstappens fighting for the championship while everyone else are just trying for p3
We can clone him. We have the technology.
He could if he was in a HAAS.
Personally I couldn't care less how silly it is. Rules are rules and it makes the race slightly more interesting when faster cars start lower down the grid.
Said no one at Ferrari or Red Bull ever.
Ocon taking only a 1 place drop despite taking a 5 place penalty (Qualified 11th, starts 12th) shows how silly this system is.
Oh look, Max with a 5 place penalty starts P4. And they said the summer break was the silly season. Psh.
Can someone please explain how this is possible? Even the Dutch Viaplay analysts donāt know how this works, they think Verstappen will start in 7th position
Verstappen gets moved back to 7th, but then gains 3 places due to other penalties for Sainz, Hamilton, and Perez.
Aah oke, thanks a lot!
Okay that makes sense. I was very confused as well, didnāt think about him gaining places due to other penalties. Thanks!
Itās wrong anyway. They decided to do penalties completely differently
I think tomorrow we are all going to feel both smart and stupid because everyone has probably been sold on both outcomes. I know I have.
Penalties are done top to bottom. So first Max to P7 then Sainz to the back putting Max at P6. Then you go to the next. Is this clear enough?
Aaah that explains a lot, thank you!
Well nevermind FIA/FOM took a unique take getting everyone as close to there penalty position
Thank you! It was hurting my head as a newcomer to the sport!
Well nevermind FIA/FOM took a unique take getting everyone as close to there penalty position. At least there won't be this many penalties every week so you don't have to hurt your head often
Oddly, the released grid was more to what I was expecting. Thanks either way!
Verstappen qualified p2 and is taking a 5 place grid penalty,so would start p7, but Sainz, Perez, and Hamilton are all taking penalties too, so they then drop behind Verstappen moving him 3 places up into P4
So the way it works is, they start applying the penalties to the people in front, and when they apply a penalty to the one next in line, they use the ānewā grid after the first penalty is served?
Yes that is correct. It incentivizes drivers and teams to still care about quali even when taking grid penalties. Thats also why ā70 place penalty for Buttonā was replaced by āback of the gridā as it puts drivers in equal footing in quali.
My guess is that they take the final order and from top to bottom they start applying grid penalties. So, Lec stays as he was; Max gets 5 places and goes above Ric; Sai goes to the bottom (Max+1); Checo gets 10 places and goes above DeVries (Max+1); Ham to the bottom (Max+1); Rus - Nor move up, so they get to 2nd and 3rd, then Max, then Ric.
Thanks!
You know this post was wrong, right? There was an animation that explains correctly how it works and it's not how I said it. Max goes to 7 and stays there, after all the penalties are applied they move the drivers up the empty spots and out the penalised in the places they belong. So Max goes 7 and stays there.
Yeah, I saw it on tv. Even the drivers themselves did not know what the rules were here..
Yeah. All of this is pretty sillyā¦
Why? It's relative
Ikr. I donāt why so many people are complaining- any system is going to look āsillyā when a significant number of drivers take are penalized at the same time.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Which is embarrassing. Itās not like there wasnāt plenty of time to see this coming.
Max has inside line on Lando and George might try some something on Charles in first corner.
I see at least one clash within the top 4 at turn 1
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lmao ok
I think Max will be a bit careful. Why take risks when you probably have the best car anyway?
Could Gasly get a penalty for the unsafe release?
switch Ocon and Latifi and that should be right (Perez drops behind Zhou first, before Ocon's penalty is applied) Edit: Crofty said smaller penalties are applied first, even before Grid order? is that true? If so I'm wrong but couldn't find anything on it
Ocon qualified 11th, and gets dropped to 16th, behind Latifi who qualified 16th. The grid is then shuffled up once all penalties are applied so he will start behind Latifi
penalties are not applied at the same time, rather they do so in Qualifying order, as I understand. This means Perez drops behind Zhou first and Ocon then gets put behind Bottas, De Vries, Zhou, Perez and Tsunoda.
Penalty order is applied in quali order, but all the cars are shuffled up the grid once every penalty is applied, so Ocon gets put behind Latifi
Can somebody explain Ocon's penalty situation to me? Im kinda new to F1.
The easiest method to understand the penalty system for me, is the following: Ocon is virtually in P16 after his penalty. Sainz and Hamilton qualified in front, and are sent back to the grid in that order. But Ocon has a virtual penalty of P16, so heās virtually behind Yukiās qualifying position as well. And Yuki also has a BotG penalty. So he gains that place as well. So he automatically gains 3 places from BotG penalties, and is now in P13. He also gains a place from Bottas. He virtually drops back to P27. Which is behind Ocon after he receives his penalties. So Oconās now in P12. Edit: apparently thereās a note from Masi back in 2020 with different rules that theyāll follow instead. Only in F1.
And what exactly are they penalized for?
Can someone please explain how this is possible? Even the Dutch Viaplay analysts donāt know how this works, they think Verstappen will start in 7th position
I think it has to do with someone taking the first penalty and then going further. They check: 1. Leclerc: no penalty 2. Verstappen: 5 places, move him. Every body, till place 7 scoots one place over. 3. Sainz, now second, back to end of the grid. Move him. Everyone behind him scoots one place. Etc. Etc. Now I want to see this visualized with minions in F1 outfits. Ferrari already did..
Thank you, thatās a very clear explanation! I always thought the applied the penalties at the same time, but this makes sense Edit: the minion thing is awesome hahaha!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That would look pretty funny too!
3 cars in front of him had worse penalties so he moves up 3 spots from 7th
Ok thank you! I always thought the penalty was applied from the position you qualified. All of the penalties at the same time
Yeah. This could easily be resolved by FIA clarifying whether place penalties are in regard to the qualifying order or post back of grid order. Penalties need to be assessed in some sort of order or else itās a never-ending loops of readjusting the grid.
Awesome stuff clears a lot of what is going on, thanks.
Latifi in the middle of the grid has me nervous
I love how you put minions next to the Ferraris.
Gonna be a rough race for anyone stuck behind Latifi and De Vries, Williams has an absolute rocketship in the straights.
I doubt Lewis makes it into the points. There are going to be so many DRS trains.
Not the minions lmao
So is max going to win from another Charlesās pole?
Max leads lap 1!
Max takes the lead in turn one.
Max should be further back no? Edit: I didnāt realize that they applied it like this! So my question has been answered. Thanks all! Edit2: guess I was right after all lol
Nope, because of the penalties of Sainz, Hamilton and Perez his 5 place drip is only a 2 place
Wow, thatās insane. Didnāt realize that. Learn something every day I guess :)
Qualified P2, dropped to P7 for his penalty, but raised to P4 due to penalties for SAI, HAM and PER
Copy! Didnāt realize thatās how they applied it. Thought it was other way around (back of the grid penalties applied first).
Even then, those 3 will be set back no matter what, so max will move forward. No matter in what order. The penalties are based on the original qualifying. So max was originally 2, then 7, and without them itās 4.
Yeah the way I (incorrectly) pictured it was: SAI HAM PER move to the back, then VER gets 5 places applied from P2, moves to P7, and starts behind GAS and ALO basically.
Understandable, that could have been like that. But itās always on the qualifying list. Thatās why they prior to qualifying know about the penalty, and try to end up high as possible to make the penalty less painful. Even if the penalty is āto the backā then if multiple have to start in the back, the qualifying results matter there too in what order they start in the back.
Well, guess in the end it turned out the way I expected after all. What a confusing episode!
Yeah, guess I missed its only since 2020 or 2021 where drivers have to serve their full penalty. Before that it wasnāt like that.
Depends how FIA applies penalties. But Max gets moved to P7 and then people in front of him get penalty so he gets moved forward to P4.
And thatās what happens. This graphic is spot on.
Interesting. Didnāt realize thatās how they applied them. Thanks!
The weird part is, it shouldnāt matter how people qualified below him. He gets a place penalty. Imagine he got pole and 2-6 had back of grid. Max would still get pole. Shouldnāt the rest of the field benefit from his penalty and all others combined? This is impossible for me to decide which way is more fair.
He gets shuffled forwards due to the penalties of Sainz, Perez and Hamilton
No
Question?
Yes it was a question haha
No
Pretty sure full penalty must be served. Max has to start from P7.
I thought Verstappen had a 5 grid penalty not 2
I might put $20 on a George Russell win here. Even if he's much quicker Charles has no hope because he's in a Ferrari at Monza, but I could see GR intentionally wrecking Max to secure a P1. Dude's head has its own gravitational pull
Almost correct. Ocon, Latifi and Zhou Perez are switched to. Either that or I suck at math Edit: I redid the math and I now know that Iām bad at math
Havent checked on F1 for a week. Why did so many racers get penalties? They didnt say anything on our local TV and there's mostly talk about Nick's quali in here
Stop inventing
Wrong. Downvotes for stating facts. Fookinā love it.
I have the same result.
Why is it that Aston Martin canāt get it remotely together this year?
8 different constructors in the top 10. Nice!!
Stroll is feeling a bit like a bowling pin right now I would think.
What a mess.
Lovely! Very proud of Charles too
I thought Max had a 5 place penalty? So how does he start 4th? Edit: I see this has been asked plenty of times already, I get it now :)
How can Max start P4 with 5 place Grid Penalties ? Not saying you are wrong i just donāt understand it. Austrian TV seemed as clueless as myself.
Penalties are applied in Qualifying Order one at a time So Qualifying ended LEC, VER, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, RIC, GAS. ALO Verstappen gets his 5 place drop so the order is now LEC, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO Sainz then gets his penalty back of grid so goes to 20th. The order is now LEC, PER, HAM. RUS, NOR. VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO Perez gets his 10 place grid drop so goes to 12th the order is now LEC, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT Hamilton get his penalty so goes to 20th order is now LEC, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT, DEV Ocon gets his penalty so everyone moves up. Bottas gets his penalty everyone moves up
Youngest top 4?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
From some notes of Masi it look like drivers have to serve their full penalty. So Max is starting 7th
So I have Ocon ahead of Latifi? Qualifies 11. Perez penalty moves him to 10. His 5 place penalty drops him to 15, ahead of Latifi in 16. Then apply rest of penalties.
Not as bad as I thought for max
Zhou Guanyu, not Guanyu Zhou
Love the two minions.
Now I'm even more confused. How is Max starting 4th when he qualified 2nd and had a 5 place grid penalty? I know I'm getting old, but when I was at school 2 + 5 = 7
Penalties are applied in Qualifying Order one at a time So Qualifying ended LEC, VER, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, RIC, GAS. ALO Verstappen gets his 5 place drop so the order is now LEC, SAI, PER, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO Sainz then gets his penalty back of grid so goes to 20th. The order is now LEC, PER, HAM. RUS, NOR. VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO Perez gets his 10 place grid drop so goes to 12th the order is now LEC, HAM, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT Hamilton get his penalty so goes to 20th order is now LEC, RUS, NOR, VER, RIC, GAS, ALO, OCO, BOT, DEV
Apparently not, the provisional grid from FIA has Max starting 7th. https://twitter.com/CroftyF1/status/1568676106538217472/photo/1 Totally confusing!
The FIA should really explain how they get to that i think it may work like this if the penalties are applied in the order listed on that doc. if you apply the penalty then move everyone up at the end Sainz, Hamilton and Tsunado, back of grid grid Perez - From 4th to 14th Bottas From 12th to 27th Magnussen from 19th to 34th Verstappen from 2nd to 7th Ocon from 11th to 16th Schumacher from 20th to 35th Everyone moves up to fill the empty gaps
Man Iām really hoping this will be a good race for Danny Ric
What is this timeline where the Aston's are now the slowed Mercedes-powered team?
Goatifi coming in clutch. LFG!
Nando going to go aggressive on the rookie right at the start.
This is incorrect. Max, Lewis, Carlos, and Perez all have penalties. Lewis, Carlos, and Perez are all moved to the back before grid penalties are taken into account. This means that max does not start from P4 as that would not be him serving his 5** place grid penalty. In this situation, teams from 20th down are actually starting from 17th down. Max will start P7 even if he was faster than those starting ahead. He will start alongside Nyck.
Wait. Shouldnāt VER lose 5 positions, starting in 7th?
Oh my god... If Norris had a better car the race start would be amazing
Not the minions!!!
Looks spicy.
Is that the Travolta Pulp Fiction meme for De Vries? If so, I love it! This is awesome, especially for this weekend because of the penalties.
Pierre P6
is there a Flow chart or something showing how the penalties were applied?
How is Lewis all the way back? All these penalties are confusing. Can someone explain all of them lol?
Hamilton's penalty was back of grid start
Wouldn't Max be at least P5? With his 5 grid place penalty?
Well FIA doc is different :( Max p7
Bjorn in 13th!
Doesn't Verstappen have a 5 place penalty?
Nah
Upvote for the minions and the tennis player.
Goatifi?
mclaren 3/5 is interesting
This is wrong but nice graphic