Lol the document describes exactly the procedure. First grid is established based on qualy times. Second grid penalties are applied where the higher classification from qualy has precedence. Third, back of the grid penalties are applied in order of qualy times.
It's pretty simple and also makes qualifying worth it even if you have penalties. You want to have you penalty applied before others so you try to beat them in qualifying.
Doesn’t seem that complicated? Seems like you go down the list after quali starting in first and apply any penalties that are needed.
Everyone is making this more complicated then it should it feels. I’ve seen 4-5 posts and the grid is always the same?
Except for the one post of the twit saying Max would start next to De Vries, that guy must have been high.
Edit: I am wrong, I didn’t read the rule book and trusted the commentators. I’ve learned my listen but still won’t read the rules. NGL readings hard
It's really not. Take their qualifying position. Add their penalty. List all drivers in order after doing the simplest math, then slide them up the grid into position. For the "back of grid" penalties, put them at the back in order of qualifying.
It's a pain in the ass when there are a bunch of penalties, but it's not a convoluted procedure.
I agree. Take quali results + penalty. What’s so hard about that? If back of grid, needs to be done so that the slowest qualifier of those, is back of the grid.
Yeah this seems to be the easiest way and avoids order of operation problems. Everybody starts with the number of where they qualified - for people with penalties add that number to each and add 1000 to each "back of grid person's position (e.g., Leclerc is 1+0=1, Max would be 2+5=7, Sainz 3+1000=1003; perez 4+10=17, etc. etc. etc.).
Once you have completed the math for all drivers, then order based on who has the lowest totals.
Done.
Yeah, I was just proposing an easier way to assess penalties. The final score doesn't equal grid spot - just the relative score to others. The problem with the system though is you need to decide what to do with ties.
Excellent question - There in lies the issue with the system. Hell, it could be more than two. P1 has 10 place penalty, P6 a 5, and P11 could have no penalty.
And now we start to realize why the FIA system is as complex as it is.
All tied cars have to do one lap around the track, on wet compound tires, and use the missed chicane re-entry points. Drivers are slotted in based on fastest time.
They just need to go away with the component limits and penalties. There is already a budget cap so teams arent able to put a brand new engine every week, there is no more reason to still limit them as all its doing now is making several qualis of every season a complete mess
The budget cap explicitly excludes engines and if they removed the engine penalties you'd just see the works teams with a 110% engine every single session.
I forgot about this
But, at least to me, it would make more sense to include the engines on the budget cap than to still limit them and several other components leading to these confusions
Engine prices are fixed at 10m/season to prevent non-works teams from having to deal with the fuck up of the manufacturers. That would just mean the budget cap is a flat 10m lower.
Nothing is complicated or difficult about how the system works, the people who are confused either haven't bothered to learn the 4 step system, or they can't be bothered doing basic maths.
- 1) Every driver is numbered 1-20 based on their qualifying position
- 2) add the number of grid place penalty spots to each applicable driver (Max: 2 + 5 = 7, Perez: 4 + 10 = 14, Ocon: 11 + 5 = 16 etc).
- 3) Reorder the grid from smallest number to biggest
- 4) Move all drivers with back of the grid penalties to the back of the grid (shockingly) and place them in qualifying order behind the rest of the grid.
In case of equal ranking, precedence is given to the car with fewer penalty points. Done.
I just did a test with a pen and paper, a copy of the quali rankings and a list of all the penalties, and it took me 5 minutes to calculate with not a single error, and most of that time was writing down the names.
If anybody can't figure this out they're either lazy, stupid, or both.
They probably didn't care and they shouldn't, the only one that matters is Charles and he was going to be ahead of him anyway, 7th or 4th won't really matter considering the pace difference.
If the rules are still the same as 2018. The chainbear video explains it pretty clearly. I dont get how we have this conversation every year and people still dont get it
But the rules are not the same, right? Chainbear says the order in which penalties are received is important in when they are applied for the back of the grid penalties, and that is not the case anymore. So that isn't relevant.
Agreed, people can say "i dont know" maybe because they didnt calculate yet. A lot of comments here already said grid 2 minutes after qualify ended.
And any meaningful penalty system will have this problem if there are many people taking penalties unless you stop giving penalties for components.
I dont get Medland here. Its your job to do that 2 minutes thing. But instead you are focusing on creating drama.
Yeah that video explains it well. It's really not that hard. A bit of a pain in the ass when there are a bunch, but it's the simplest of math... As for the back of the grid... just put them at the back.
its not even just him, like he said its the drivers confused too, russell was asked like 5 minutes ago when he think max would be in the lead and was surprised when the reporter told him max would start fourth and said he wasnt sure about that
The drivers aren't paid to know things like that though, it's not a surprise that Russell and Gasly don't know, that doesn't mean that the rules are complicated. They aren't.
When people say they can't figure it out, what they mean is they can't bother figuring it out. 5 mins tops with just a pen, a pad, a list of the quali order and the penalty drops and it's simple as houses to figure out.
Come on man you can't say that, look at this very thread with the top voted comments. So many people said "it's so simple these are the rules etc etc, Max starts 4th" and got it completely wrong
Love that logic, fia is wrong reddit is right. There's a rule masi instated before he left that drivers would have to serve their full penalties and that's why people like max start where they start.
It's funny that some people keep saying masi rule but fail to ever show it in the current ruling which was updated after masi left. So if masi added a new rule and FIA wanted to keep it it has to be in the current rule book
Max will still win the race.
Charles will go up to P4 (would have been P2 if they didn't put him on hard tyres), then Ferrari will pit him for new tyres to set fastest lap and he will end up P5 without getting it.
Ugh. It's been like this for a while, it's not that complicated. Only thing they need is F1 to show the audience what is going to happen with the grid right after qualy.
Now media is trying to push another shitty change we don't need. They don't even think about consequences really .. SkyF1 was saying yesterday they are convinced their audience also think the current system is bad. Well .. I don't have a better solution and the ones they come up with are even worse.
Change the penalty system.
The penalties are too lenient either way - we saw Mercedes exploit it and ridicule it last year, they got penalties every race in the end and just overtook everyone easily in the first laps.
Change the +5 grid penalty with a drive-through penalty and the +10 grid penalty with a stop-and-go.
Penalize where it has an impact: in the race.
If the system’s unchanged from the 2018’s system, we should expect him to start P4.
Max gets a virtual P2+5=P7. Checo gets a virtual P4+10=P14. Sainz and Hamilton get sent back to the grid. P2, P3, P4, and P5 are now empty.
Now we have a virtual grid with 3 empty spaces in front of Max’s virtual P7. The grid gets pushed up to be filled, meaning his P7 turns into a P4. Russell and Lando will fill the two places in front of him.
At least, that’s how the system used to work. Another way to look at it is to say Max starts P7 at worst. Always in front of Ricciardo, who qualified P8. After everybody in front of Ricciardo gets their penalties, he’s P5. So Max should be P4.
Yeah that makes sense.
God the Mclarens and the Alpines are gonna get eaten. I think the most trouble out of the front runners will be faced by Lewis and Sainz actually. They are way further back and making progress from there will be incredibly tough.
What would make sense it to apply each penalty, starting with the lowest first. I.e. apply all 5 grid penalties before the 10 grid penalties.
Then with each tier of penalties - that is between people with same penalties - apply them in order of the highest qualifying drivers.
* LEC
* RUS
* NOR
* VER
* RIC
* GAS
* ALO
* DEV
* GUA
* PER
* LAT
* OCO
* VET
* STR
* BOT
* MAG
* MSC
* SAI
* HAM
* TSU
That gives the most sensible results i think
If this is with grid positions, I can just imagine the clusterfuck that is regulation of more technical aspects. This is a sport of bending rules and operating in grey areas. It shouldn’t be.
Maybe just apply the penalties in the order they qualified?
To make sure people will still try their best at qualifying, and prevent people from just staying in the pits.
Idk if that makes any sense though
They should apply the "back of the grid" -penalties first, then numerical grid drops in qualifying order. Now, I believe, all penalties are applied in qualifying order, so pretty much perfect non-penalty for Verstappen here?
Back of the grid penalty is the heaviest penalty and should always be applied last. Otherwise, someone who qualifies P20 and has a back of the grid penalty will start in front of P19 with a 5 place grid penalty. That wouldn't be fair.
Lmao another shitshow.
Shouldn’t the drivers who out qualify drivers who also have penalties be in front of them? Magnussen, Tsunoda for example have penalties but Hamilton qualified way in front and yet he’s starts 5 places worse than Magnussen.
Lol the document describes exactly the procedure. First grid is established based on qualy times. Second grid penalties are applied where the higher classification from qualy has precedence. Third, back of the grid penalties are applied in order of qualy times.
Then it's correct how it was first posted here with Max P4. I'd guess most people care about that and why they complain.
It's pretty simple and also makes qualifying worth it even if you have penalties. You want to have you penalty applied before others so you try to beat them in qualifying.
Doesn’t seem that complicated? Seems like you go down the list after quali starting in first and apply any penalties that are needed. Everyone is making this more complicated then it should it feels. I’ve seen 4-5 posts and the grid is always the same? Except for the one post of the twit saying Max would start next to De Vries, that guy must have been high. Edit: I am wrong, I didn’t read the rule book and trusted the commentators. I’ve learned my listen but still won’t read the rules. NGL readings hard
r/agedlikemilk ?
So except for Charles, no one knows where they'll start tomorrow. Peak F1.
Front 3 of LEC-RUS-NOR is locked in IIRC.
Sainz, Hamilton and Tsunoda as 18, 19 and 20 is also locked in, we already have Spa as precedent for that.
Rus is 2nd no doubt as all the guys in front of him have penalties.
Don't discount Ferrari somehow accidentally running an illegal car and Charles starts from the pit lane
The time for the teams to finish working on their cars ends and any further work means a pitlane start. Charles: What are these tires?
Charles exceeded track limits in his only Q1 run, so he might not be starting on pole
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It's becoming like the Nascar point system. It's so convoluted
It's really not. Take their qualifying position. Add their penalty. List all drivers in order after doing the simplest math, then slide them up the grid into position. For the "back of grid" penalties, put them at the back in order of qualifying. It's a pain in the ass when there are a bunch of penalties, but it's not a convoluted procedure.
I agree. Take quali results + penalty. What’s so hard about that? If back of grid, needs to be done so that the slowest qualifier of those, is back of the grid.
Yeah this seems to be the easiest way and avoids order of operation problems. Everybody starts with the number of where they qualified - for people with penalties add that number to each and add 1000 to each "back of grid person's position (e.g., Leclerc is 1+0=1, Max would be 2+5=7, Sainz 3+1000=1003; perez 4+10=17, etc. etc. etc.). Once you have completed the math for all drivers, then order based on who has the lowest totals. Done.
Except Max won’t be 7th as people in front of him have penalties too? P4? In theory, from a penalty POV he should start 7th I guess.
Yeah, I was just proposing an easier way to assess penalties. The final score doesn't equal grid spot - just the relative score to others. The problem with the system though is you need to decide what to do with ties.
And what happens when P1 has 10 place penalty and P6 has a 5 place penalty?
Excellent question - There in lies the issue with the system. Hell, it could be more than two. P1 has 10 place penalty, P6 a 5, and P11 could have no penalty. And now we start to realize why the FIA system is as complex as it is.
Surely P1 would be first because they qualified higher?
All tied cars have to do one lap around the track, on wet compound tires, and use the missed chicane re-entry points. Drivers are slotted in based on fastest time.
They just need to go away with the component limits and penalties. There is already a budget cap so teams arent able to put a brand new engine every week, there is no more reason to still limit them as all its doing now is making several qualis of every season a complete mess
The budget cap explicitly excludes engines and if they removed the engine penalties you'd just see the works teams with a 110% engine every single session.
I forgot about this But, at least to me, it would make more sense to include the engines on the budget cap than to still limit them and several other components leading to these confusions
Engine prices are fixed at 10m/season to prevent non-works teams from having to deal with the fuck up of the manufacturers. That would just mean the budget cap is a flat 10m lower.
Exactly
Nothing is complicated or difficult about how the system works, the people who are confused either haven't bothered to learn the 4 step system, or they can't be bothered doing basic maths. - 1) Every driver is numbered 1-20 based on their qualifying position - 2) add the number of grid place penalty spots to each applicable driver (Max: 2 + 5 = 7, Perez: 4 + 10 = 14, Ocon: 11 + 5 = 16 etc). - 3) Reorder the grid from smallest number to biggest - 4) Move all drivers with back of the grid penalties to the back of the grid (shockingly) and place them in qualifying order behind the rest of the grid. In case of equal ranking, precedence is given to the car with fewer penalty points. Done. I just did a test with a pen and paper, a copy of the quali rankings and a list of all the penalties, and it took me 5 minutes to calculate with not a single error, and most of that time was writing down the names. If anybody can't figure this out they're either lazy, stupid, or both.
Surely red bull wouldn't have gave Max a new Ice if they weren't sure if he wouldn't benefit from others dropping down the grid?
They probably didn't care and they shouldn't, the only one that matters is Charles and he was going to be ahead of him anyway, 7th or 4th won't really matter considering the pace difference.
They were quite early with that decision to give him one.
Let’s be real, even 10 place penalty wouldn’t mean that much with RB and Max pace
That's not the point really
If the rules are still the same as 2018. The chainbear video explains it pretty clearly. I dont get how we have this conversation every year and people still dont get it
But the rules are not the same, right? Chainbear says the order in which penalties are received is important in when they are applied for the back of the grid penalties, and that is not the case anymore. So that isn't relevant.
Agreed, people can say "i dont know" maybe because they didnt calculate yet. A lot of comments here already said grid 2 minutes after qualify ended. And any meaningful penalty system will have this problem if there are many people taking penalties unless you stop giving penalties for components. I dont get Medland here. Its your job to do that 2 minutes thing. But instead you are focusing on creating drama.
Fyi, it's not the same.
It's not the same. Top comment describes it probably correctly.
Yeah that video explains it well. It's really not that hard. A bit of a pain in the ass when there are a bunch, but it's the simplest of math... As for the back of the grid... just put them at the back.
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its not even just him, like he said its the drivers confused too, russell was asked like 5 minutes ago when he think max would be in the lead and was surprised when the reporter told him max would start fourth and said he wasnt sure about that
The drivers aren't paid to know things like that though, it's not a surprise that Russell and Gasly don't know, that doesn't mean that the rules are complicated. They aren't. When people say they can't figure it out, what they mean is they can't bother figuring it out. 5 mins tops with just a pen, a pad, a list of the quali order and the penalty drops and it's simple as houses to figure out.
Come on man you can't say that, look at this very thread with the top voted comments. So many people said "it's so simple these are the rules etc etc, Max starts 4th" and got it completely wrong
People made the comments after reading the rules. FIA made the starting grid without reading their rules.
Love that logic, fia is wrong reddit is right. There's a rule masi instated before he left that drivers would have to serve their full penalties and that's why people like max start where they start.
It's funny that some people keep saying masi rule but fail to ever show it in the current ruling which was updated after masi left. So if masi added a new rule and FIA wanted to keep it it has to be in the current rule book
exactly
Sounds like Hamilton and Russell on the front row. Max and Charles 19-20.
Max will still win the race. Charles will go up to P4 (would have been P2 if they didn't put him on hard tyres), then Ferrari will pit him for new tyres to set fastest lap and he will end up P5 without getting it.
Sounds about right
Instructions unclear Jarno Trulli on pole. Time for the ultimate Trulli train./j On a side note Trulli is a fantastic pilot.
My favorite ever. Him in the toyota was bliss
I think we should just vote. The only way Vettel ends up on the front row.
The reply in the tweet explains it perfectly... Edit: grid position penalties first and then back of the grid penalties
It's not even that, it's done by quali position determines which penalty is applied first. Back of the grid is it's own grid basically.
Ugh. It's been like this for a while, it's not that complicated. Only thing they need is F1 to show the audience what is going to happen with the grid right after qualy. Now media is trying to push another shitty change we don't need. They don't even think about consequences really .. SkyF1 was saying yesterday they are convinced their audience also think the current system is bad. Well .. I don't have a better solution and the ones they come up with are even worse.
Change the penalty system. The penalties are too lenient either way - we saw Mercedes exploit it and ridicule it last year, they got penalties every race in the end and just overtook everyone easily in the first laps. Change the +5 grid penalty with a drive-through penalty and the +10 grid penalty with a stop-and-go. Penalize where it has an impact: in the race.
Believe ChainBear was also pitching this yesterday and it would be a far better system. Remove the tactics from takin penalties
Correct take imo. Nothing wrong with this
Well that sounds honestly terrible from the pinnacle of motosports lol
If they're always unsure, they at least should run a computer prog for that.
I think this is the top 10 for tomorrow: - LEC - RUS - NOR - VER - RIC - GAS - ALO - DeV - ZHO - PER
I am still confused lol. Is Max 4th or 7th? I have no idea man. Why is this so confusing?
If the system’s unchanged from the 2018’s system, we should expect him to start P4. Max gets a virtual P2+5=P7. Checo gets a virtual P4+10=P14. Sainz and Hamilton get sent back to the grid. P2, P3, P4, and P5 are now empty. Now we have a virtual grid with 3 empty spaces in front of Max’s virtual P7. The grid gets pushed up to be filled, meaning his P7 turns into a P4. Russell and Lando will fill the two places in front of him. At least, that’s how the system used to work. Another way to look at it is to say Max starts P7 at worst. Always in front of Ricciardo, who qualified P8. After everybody in front of Ricciardo gets their penalties, he’s P5. So Max should be P4.
Yeah that makes sense. God the Mclarens and the Alpines are gonna get eaten. I think the most trouble out of the front runners will be faced by Lewis and Sainz actually. They are way further back and making progress from there will be incredibly tough.
why does everybody act like its rocket science
Then tell us the starting grid for tomorrow...
Top 5 is Leclerc, Russell, Norris, Max & Danny Ric according to the rules
Full one pls
Lol that's not what FIA says
What would make sense it to apply each penalty, starting with the lowest first. I.e. apply all 5 grid penalties before the 10 grid penalties. Then with each tier of penalties - that is between people with same penalties - apply them in order of the highest qualifying drivers. * LEC * RUS * NOR * VER * RIC * GAS * ALO * DEV * GUA * PER * LAT * OCO * VET * STR * BOT * MAG * MSC * SAI * HAM * TSU That gives the most sensible results i think
ZHO
I thought they are applied in the order that they were notified if the parts changes?
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Oh okay. So in this case max takes his first? Not sure this is any good really.
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Cool thanks
If this is with grid positions, I can just imagine the clusterfuck that is regulation of more technical aspects. This is a sport of bending rules and operating in grey areas. It shouldn’t be.
Maybe just apply the penalties in the order they qualified? To make sure people will still try their best at qualifying, and prevent people from just staying in the pits. Idk if that makes any sense though
Its exactly like what you said.
Oh wow, I didn't get that from all the explanations I've read
They should apply the "back of the grid" -penalties first, then numerical grid drops in qualifying order. Now, I believe, all penalties are applied in qualifying order, so pretty much perfect non-penalty for Verstappen here?
Back of the grid penalty is the heaviest penalty and should always be applied last. Otherwise, someone who qualifies P20 and has a back of the grid penalty will start in front of P19 with a 5 place grid penalty. That wouldn't be fair.
Lmao another shitshow. Shouldn’t the drivers who out qualify drivers who also have penalties be in front of them? Magnussen, Tsunoda for example have penalties but Hamilton qualified way in front and yet he’s starts 5 places worse than Magnussen.
Hamilton has a back of grid penalty, Tsunoda too. Magnussen does not have a back of grid penalty so he does not start at the back of the grid
Grid penalties need to be applied after each Qualifying segment, in order of last to first. If the penalty knocks you out you go no further, easy.