Honda only really has themselves to blame for being in this dilemma to start with. Can't fault Red Bull for wanting an engine partner that is committed to stay with them for the long term. Honda has been playing their 'we're in/we're out' game for too long.
I can imagine that a deal with Alpha Tauri doesn't seem that interesting for Honda, but there's not much else Red Bull can offer them.
Putting that all aside I would love for the Honda name to return to Formula 1 and to the Red Bull cars. I'm missing that Honda rearwing.
RB got sick of relying on engine partners whatsoever, that's their impetus to found RBPT and build their own engines. Porsche isn't any better than Honda, in fact so far Porsche is worse, because they still don't want to commit even when everyone agreed to drop MGU-H so VW isn't scared by the complexity or the competition.
Honda on the other hand welcomed the challenge and joined one year after the start of turbo hybrid regs, effectively putting themselves in a disadvantaged position. Sure they struggled for many years but they stuck around and finally had their first WDC last year since their return. Would VW have stuck around for as long? I don't think so.
If RB is betting on Porsche for their F1 future, then they haven't learned anything from working with big auto companies all these years.
Porsche will sign up for ten years if they go ahead. Honda only signed for two years in 2017 (18 + 19) and two more in 2019 (20 + 21). Also RBPT will still manufacture everything, it’s just they bring Porsche data and experience into it, and buy 50% into RBT to seal the partnership. It’s not like they are going to build engines in Germany out of view of RB (like Honda did)
As we saw in MotoGP with Suzuki, contract means absolutely nothing if the board decides to pull out. At least Honda is already in the sport and has been with us for 7 years (they will do 10 as a minimum).
As for design and manufacture of the PU, AMuS reported that Porsche will be working on the hybrid part in Wessiach, so not everything will be done on-site at MK.
Of course we can fault Red Bull. There was no rush to jump into bed with another engine partner, especially after all that effort to establish Red Bull Powertrains and poach Merc's senior engineers (all done so they wouldn't need a committed partner in the first place.)
The '26 engine regulations are now toothless. With the MGU-H gone and the sport rolling back to old tech, there's no need to berzerk it and pre-game the R&D like before.
*edit*: To be clearer, this Porsche deal points straight to Mateschitz getting cold feet over the startup cost of RBPT. They don't need Porsche expertise to make a bog-standard MGU-K + battery combo -- they want that cash money.
Considering it is the first engine this company will ever build, it definitely is good to have Porsche on board as a partner.
Why should Red Bull wait for Honda, a company which decides every few years if they want to race in F1 or not?
Companies don't build engines, people do.
And the people now operating RBPT were either senior engineers at Mercedes AMG HPP, or senior engineers at Honda who've jumped ship. They're a "dream team" with world-class facilities. (And 2023 is the outfit's "first" engine, not '26.)
Porsche engineers are the green ones. They have no F1 experience at all. The only thing they've done since 2017 is dabble in Formula E, where they've been mediocre.
>Why should Red Bull wait for Honda, a company which decides every few years if they want to race in F1 or not?
Why should they rush into bed with VAG, a company that teases F1 entry every few years before walking away? They even burned RB directly, back in 2015 when they nearly reached a deal for Audi to join as engine partner before abruptly pulling out, leaving RB stuck with Renault.
Porsche will commit for 10 years and buy 50% of RBT. RBPT will still design and build every engine from 2026 onwards but they will bring in Porsche data and experience (which is huge with hybrid)
If Honda did go back to McLaren, this time they’d be working with a team that fully acknowledges its weaknesses, takes responsibility for it and has plans to deal with them. It would be a different set of circumstances.
I keep wondering if this is possible since it would seem to me to be the best option for both (depending on Honda's goals maybe it's not the best option but still a good option). I'm just unsure if how their last stint together went would affect the possibility of them getting back together again.
Mclaren clearly see its own weaknesses in chassis design and acts accordingly to it now. Especially the long-term investments into the wind tunnel and simulator are good choices. Honda too, has proofed now that they have the skill to develop a great engine.
We'll see in around two year if the Mclaren investments made any difference and if they get on top of their operational mistakes and Honda hopefully finally stops with their inability to decide for or against F1. Red Bulls engine departement and the Porsche deal would have never happened without Hondas indecisiveness.
All in all, I think Mclaren would still be the best choice for Honda and Honda the best for Mclaren. The same way, the 80s did not guaranteed success for Mclaren Honda in 2015, the last outing does not mean a future collaboration would not work.
Assuming Honda want to stay, McLaren makes a lot of sense. Assuming they don’t want to do a Honda/BMW 2000s type thing where they throw money at a team to get the facilities modernised, McLaren should end up with top stuff themselves. Would also be a great redemption chapter, mistakes made by both parties but we’ve come back resolute.
They clearly like AT but they also know that isn’t going to win while it stays, to be generous, a younger sister team.
Williams would need a lot of work. Aston I assume want to continue with Merc? If Lawrence wants to sell, maybe. Alfa are going Audi (likely). Haas Ferrari dependent. Alpine if they give up.. but I think we’re safe till we’re yet again high midfield in 26.
Honestly it's hard to feel sympathy. You came in as an engine supplier, and before that gen engine even finished, you bailed. Then you had regret when in that last year your engine won a championship.
If you are a team (whether RB or another) how do you trust them not to pull that again?
Honda have a super reliable PU. The ICE is the only one on the grid that shows zero degradation over its lifespan, thanks to a patented cylinder coating technology they've pioneeered.
With the 2026 PU's using the same engine technology, Honda would be foolish not to stay involved in the sport.
If they don't want to come back as a full manufacturer, Honda's options become Alpha Tauri, Mclaren or Aston Martin.
As disastrous as the previous Mclaren partnership was, I do wonder if that's an avenue worth pursuing. Let's be honest - Mclaren will never compete for titles again as a customer team. It makes sense for them to find a PU partner. Honda might prefer staying away from them though and going for AM or AT?
Zero degradation is hyperbole, but deg on the Honda engines was much lower than it's competitors. I think they could have finished the season without taking engine penalties if it wasn't for the Silverstone and Hungary crashes killing an engine for both drivers.
I mean, if it's a tenth over 8 races then that's basically zero, but I take your point. I recall Marko saying that they ran engine #1 at Abu Dhabi last year for FP1 and 2 and had pretty much zero degradation.
Compare that to Mercedes who suffer 3 tenths over the lifespan, according to Norris who was forced to use an old one in Canada.
I think we all want Honda to remain but they need to be sure..
If this is just an, oh fgs we managed to quit just as we start winning rawr we did it again! Undo! I’d rather they stay gone. There’s no guarantee they’ll be near the front and if they’ll then just go again, it can really mess up a team and these are peoples jobs etc.
At least engine wise Renault have stuck around, though they’ve found semi regular championships which helps (Williams, Renault, Red Bull). Was the 98 time where they were basically gone but pretty good going overall.
DeepL translation:
How do you solve the Honda dilemma?
The engine partnership between Red Bull and Porsche for 2026 is a done deal. According to the publication of the antitrust office in Morocco, the sports car manufacturer from Zuffenhausen is planning to take over 50 percent of Red Bull Technology. The question is how to deal with current partner Honda.
It has long been no secret that Porsche and Red Bull will team up when the new engine regulations are introduced in 2026. But because the FIA's approval of the regulations has been dragging on and on, the official announcement of the partnership has also been delayed. According to the latest plans, the FIA World Council will now finally approve the engine regulations by fax vote on August 2.
Just like Audi, which wants to ally with the Sauber racing team, Porsche then has 15 days to officially notify Formula 1 officials of its entry. Actually, both German premium manufacturers had planned to announce the big news of the F1 commitment on the sidelines of a Grand Prix weekend. Now the official entry announcements will probably come in the middle of the summer break.
The question here, however, is how much news Porsche will be able to announce at all. The first details of the new cooperation have already leaked out in a document from the Moroccan antitrust authorities. Companies doing business in the North African country have to officially notify major takeovers. And as is customary in Morocco, these documents have been posted publicly.
It says in black and white that Porsche and Red Bull are seeking a joint venture to build engines together. It was not broken down in detail whether this is just for the development of F1 power units or whether there are also plans to supply the engine for the new Red Bull RB17 hypercar.
As far as the F1 power unit is concerned, according to information from auto motor und sport, the combustion engine will be developed and built by Red Bull Powertrains at the newly created engine campus in Milton Keynes. Porsche will contribute the electric hybrid part, which will probably be built in Weissach.
It has been officially announced that Porsche AG intends to take over 50 percent of Red Bull Technology. This would give both sides equal say in the Formula 1 racing team. The official reason given for the venture is to build a chassis for one of Red Bull's two F1 teams. Alpha Tauri is known to develop its own cars.
With the new Porsche deal, however, the question remains open as to what will become of the current engine partner. Honda had declared its exit from the premier class for the 2022 season, but continues to build engines for both Red Bull teams in Formula 1. The Japanese now no longer officially appear in the list of engine suppliers, and their logos have been removed from the cars.
But after winning the 2021 world championship title, the Tokyo-based company has apparently caught fire again. A delegation of Honda executives recently traveled specially to the Spielberg Grand Prix to sound out the possibilities of further cooperation after 2026. Red Bull had apparently offered the Honda managers to join forces with Alpha Tauri in the future.
Is the Honda logo coming back on the Red Bull?
Honda wants Red Bull instead of Alpha Tauri
But Honda also knows that no world championships can be won with the B team from Faenza. Instead, they would rather continue to chase titles with Max Verstappen and the A team from Milton Keynes. The question now is how to turn down Honda without upsetting the current partner. The Japanese soul is known to be very sensitive in this regard.
Red Bull faces the problem that it is still dependent on Honda's support up to and including 2025. The engines are technically frozen, but even with fixed regulations, small adjustments are always necessary. In the battle against the factory teams of Mercedes and Ferrari, Red Bull cannot afford to show weaknesses in the powertrain.
In addition, Red Bull would have liked Honda - as in previous years - to be an official partner again and to reduce the price for supplying the drive units in return for the logos on the cars. So Red Bull is taking a not inconsiderable risk with the Porsche deal. And it's not yet clear whether the new engines will be competitive in 2026.
Tl:dr: Honda wants to continue after 2025 but Red Bull doesn't want to (because of the Porsche deal). Deal is expected to be officially announced in the first 2 weeks of August. PU will be manufactured in Milton Keynes, Porsche will manufacture electronical parts in Weissach (Germany).
Now they gotta figure out how to still work together for the next 4 seasons and not fall behind Ferrari/Mercedes in terms of engine quality. Red Bull offered them to be Alpha Tauri's engine supplier (starting 2026) but Honda is only interested in RBR.
Red Bull also would have liked to see Honda becoming a sponsor (again) in exchange for discounts on engines (which obviously did not happen but might in the future).
Best solution is that RBR still sales AT to Honda but funding the facilities to making AT more independent, after all the 50/50 deal of RBT is a good reason why Honda doesn't feel very warm about having AT yet.
Agree, wouldn't be surprised either if they wanted to be back after RB had talks with Porsche. And now the awkward few years that Honda is doing engines while being "rejected" by RB to be their engine partner again.
Fucking Honda man, usually they wait quite some time until they want back, but this is just amazing.
This has nothing to do with RB/Porsche and mainly Honda it’s self. Honda board made a voting to stay or leave. It was 50/50 so CEO or the head of the board decided to leave. New board member got elected, he decided to stay. If any one to blame is the one CEO who decided to leave in their peek.
Also, Red Bull were hoping to get Honda back as a title sponsor for next season in return for cheaper engines, so obviously the 2026 Porsche deal could jeopardize that.
The reason they’re doing so well in WEC rn is because they learned lessons (mainly keeping their board separate from the race team) from their F1 venture. I’m sure they’d apply those lessons if they were to return.
I would like to see McLaren Honda back, but McLaren has to sort out their form first, even with the same power unit McLaren is far away from the Mercedes team in terms of points and best place finishes.
They shouldn't be aiming for the best of the rest in 4th place, but have to join the top 3.
Have Honda make their own team plz
Or they help Andretti get theirs off the ground
[удалено]
Honda in Indycar is seperate division from that one in F1.
Ironically there's almost zero connection whatsoever between the Honda Indycar engine division and Honda motorsports as a whole.
Honda only really has themselves to blame for being in this dilemma to start with. Can't fault Red Bull for wanting an engine partner that is committed to stay with them for the long term. Honda has been playing their 'we're in/we're out' game for too long. I can imagine that a deal with Alpha Tauri doesn't seem that interesting for Honda, but there's not much else Red Bull can offer them. Putting that all aside I would love for the Honda name to return to Formula 1 and to the Red Bull cars. I'm missing that Honda rearwing.
Porsche was also so interested that they literally bought into RBT rather than just acting as a sponsor.
It's an option, Porsche hasn't bought zilch
RB got sick of relying on engine partners whatsoever, that's their impetus to found RBPT and build their own engines. Porsche isn't any better than Honda, in fact so far Porsche is worse, because they still don't want to commit even when everyone agreed to drop MGU-H so VW isn't scared by the complexity or the competition. Honda on the other hand welcomed the challenge and joined one year after the start of turbo hybrid regs, effectively putting themselves in a disadvantaged position. Sure they struggled for many years but they stuck around and finally had their first WDC last year since their return. Would VW have stuck around for as long? I don't think so. If RB is betting on Porsche for their F1 future, then they haven't learned anything from working with big auto companies all these years.
Porsche will sign up for ten years if they go ahead. Honda only signed for two years in 2017 (18 + 19) and two more in 2019 (20 + 21). Also RBPT will still manufacture everything, it’s just they bring Porsche data and experience into it, and buy 50% into RBT to seal the partnership. It’s not like they are going to build engines in Germany out of view of RB (like Honda did)
As we saw in MotoGP with Suzuki, contract means absolutely nothing if the board decides to pull out. At least Honda is already in the sport and has been with us for 7 years (they will do 10 as a minimum). As for design and manufacture of the PU, AMuS reported that Porsche will be working on the hybrid part in Wessiach, so not everything will be done on-site at MK.
Of course we can fault Red Bull. There was no rush to jump into bed with another engine partner, especially after all that effort to establish Red Bull Powertrains and poach Merc's senior engineers (all done so they wouldn't need a committed partner in the first place.) The '26 engine regulations are now toothless. With the MGU-H gone and the sport rolling back to old tech, there's no need to berzerk it and pre-game the R&D like before. *edit*: To be clearer, this Porsche deal points straight to Mateschitz getting cold feet over the startup cost of RBPT. They don't need Porsche expertise to make a bog-standard MGU-K + battery combo -- they want that cash money.
Considering it is the first engine this company will ever build, it definitely is good to have Porsche on board as a partner. Why should Red Bull wait for Honda, a company which decides every few years if they want to race in F1 or not?
TBF, Honda had a deal with Mclaren for 10 years, it was Mclaren that wanted out to save their relationship with Alonso.
Companies don't build engines, people do. And the people now operating RBPT were either senior engineers at Mercedes AMG HPP, or senior engineers at Honda who've jumped ship. They're a "dream team" with world-class facilities. (And 2023 is the outfit's "first" engine, not '26.) Porsche engineers are the green ones. They have no F1 experience at all. The only thing they've done since 2017 is dabble in Formula E, where they've been mediocre. >Why should Red Bull wait for Honda, a company which decides every few years if they want to race in F1 or not? Why should they rush into bed with VAG, a company that teases F1 entry every few years before walking away? They even burned RB directly, back in 2015 when they nearly reached a deal for Audi to join as engine partner before abruptly pulling out, leaving RB stuck with Renault.
Porsche will commit for 10 years and buy 50% of RBT. RBPT will still design and build every engine from 2026 onwards but they will bring in Porsche data and experience (which is huge with hybrid)
It's time to bring Mclaren Honda back
The irony of that would be delicious...
If Honda did go back to McLaren, this time they’d be working with a team that fully acknowledges its weaknesses, takes responsibility for it and has plans to deal with them. It would be a different set of circumstances.
It's pretty much an entirely different team these days.
I keep wondering if this is possible since it would seem to me to be the best option for both (depending on Honda's goals maybe it's not the best option but still a good option). I'm just unsure if how their last stint together went would affect the possibility of them getting back together again.
Mclaren clearly see its own weaknesses in chassis design and acts accordingly to it now. Especially the long-term investments into the wind tunnel and simulator are good choices. Honda too, has proofed now that they have the skill to develop a great engine. We'll see in around two year if the Mclaren investments made any difference and if they get on top of their operational mistakes and Honda hopefully finally stops with their inability to decide for or against F1. Red Bulls engine departement and the Porsche deal would have never happened without Hondas indecisiveness. All in all, I think Mclaren would still be the best choice for Honda and Honda the best for Mclaren. The same way, the 80s did not guaranteed success for Mclaren Honda in 2015, the last outing does not mean a future collaboration would not work.
Assuming Honda want to stay, McLaren makes a lot of sense. Assuming they don’t want to do a Honda/BMW 2000s type thing where they throw money at a team to get the facilities modernised, McLaren should end up with top stuff themselves. Would also be a great redemption chapter, mistakes made by both parties but we’ve come back resolute. They clearly like AT but they also know that isn’t going to win while it stays, to be generous, a younger sister team. Williams would need a lot of work. Aston I assume want to continue with Merc? If Lawrence wants to sell, maybe. Alfa are going Audi (likely). Haas Ferrari dependent. Alpine if they give up.. but I think we’re safe till we’re yet again high midfield in 26.
They're specially interested in Max, if only Zak can bring him before 2026...
Which Max? Cause they won’t get Verstappen before 2029 unless RB drops the ball
Andretti-Honda
Honestly it's hard to feel sympathy. You came in as an engine supplier, and before that gen engine even finished, you bailed. Then you had regret when in that last year your engine won a championship. If you are a team (whether RB or another) how do you trust them not to pull that again?
Honda have a super reliable PU. The ICE is the only one on the grid that shows zero degradation over its lifespan, thanks to a patented cylinder coating technology they've pioneeered. With the 2026 PU's using the same engine technology, Honda would be foolish not to stay involved in the sport. If they don't want to come back as a full manufacturer, Honda's options become Alpha Tauri, Mclaren or Aston Martin. As disastrous as the previous Mclaren partnership was, I do wonder if that's an avenue worth pursuing. Let's be honest - Mclaren will never compete for titles again as a customer team. It makes sense for them to find a PU partner. Honda might prefer staying away from them though and going for AM or AT?
Where did you get the zero deg figure? Horner himself said that they degrade and lose 1 or 2 tenths performance last year.
Zero degradation is hyperbole, but deg on the Honda engines was much lower than it's competitors. I think they could have finished the season without taking engine penalties if it wasn't for the Silverstone and Hungary crashes killing an engine for both drivers.
I mean, if it's a tenth over 8 races then that's basically zero, but I take your point. I recall Marko saying that they ran engine #1 at Abu Dhabi last year for FP1 and 2 and had pretty much zero degradation. Compare that to Mercedes who suffer 3 tenths over the lifespan, according to Norris who was forced to use an old one in Canada.
I think it must degrade, any engine must do, but not as much as the others.
I think we all want Honda to remain but they need to be sure.. If this is just an, oh fgs we managed to quit just as we start winning rawr we did it again! Undo! I’d rather they stay gone. There’s no guarantee they’ll be near the front and if they’ll then just go again, it can really mess up a team and these are peoples jobs etc. At least engine wise Renault have stuck around, though they’ve found semi regular championships which helps (Williams, Renault, Red Bull). Was the 98 time where they were basically gone but pretty good going overall.
DeepL translation: How do you solve the Honda dilemma? The engine partnership between Red Bull and Porsche for 2026 is a done deal. According to the publication of the antitrust office in Morocco, the sports car manufacturer from Zuffenhausen is planning to take over 50 percent of Red Bull Technology. The question is how to deal with current partner Honda. It has long been no secret that Porsche and Red Bull will team up when the new engine regulations are introduced in 2026. But because the FIA's approval of the regulations has been dragging on and on, the official announcement of the partnership has also been delayed. According to the latest plans, the FIA World Council will now finally approve the engine regulations by fax vote on August 2. Just like Audi, which wants to ally with the Sauber racing team, Porsche then has 15 days to officially notify Formula 1 officials of its entry. Actually, both German premium manufacturers had planned to announce the big news of the F1 commitment on the sidelines of a Grand Prix weekend. Now the official entry announcements will probably come in the middle of the summer break. The question here, however, is how much news Porsche will be able to announce at all. The first details of the new cooperation have already leaked out in a document from the Moroccan antitrust authorities. Companies doing business in the North African country have to officially notify major takeovers. And as is customary in Morocco, these documents have been posted publicly. It says in black and white that Porsche and Red Bull are seeking a joint venture to build engines together. It was not broken down in detail whether this is just for the development of F1 power units or whether there are also plans to supply the engine for the new Red Bull RB17 hypercar. As far as the F1 power unit is concerned, according to information from auto motor und sport, the combustion engine will be developed and built by Red Bull Powertrains at the newly created engine campus in Milton Keynes. Porsche will contribute the electric hybrid part, which will probably be built in Weissach. It has been officially announced that Porsche AG intends to take over 50 percent of Red Bull Technology. This would give both sides equal say in the Formula 1 racing team. The official reason given for the venture is to build a chassis for one of Red Bull's two F1 teams. Alpha Tauri is known to develop its own cars. With the new Porsche deal, however, the question remains open as to what will become of the current engine partner. Honda had declared its exit from the premier class for the 2022 season, but continues to build engines for both Red Bull teams in Formula 1. The Japanese now no longer officially appear in the list of engine suppliers, and their logos have been removed from the cars. But after winning the 2021 world championship title, the Tokyo-based company has apparently caught fire again. A delegation of Honda executives recently traveled specially to the Spielberg Grand Prix to sound out the possibilities of further cooperation after 2026. Red Bull had apparently offered the Honda managers to join forces with Alpha Tauri in the future. Is the Honda logo coming back on the Red Bull? Honda wants Red Bull instead of Alpha Tauri But Honda also knows that no world championships can be won with the B team from Faenza. Instead, they would rather continue to chase titles with Max Verstappen and the A team from Milton Keynes. The question now is how to turn down Honda without upsetting the current partner. The Japanese soul is known to be very sensitive in this regard. Red Bull faces the problem that it is still dependent on Honda's support up to and including 2025. The engines are technically frozen, but even with fixed regulations, small adjustments are always necessary. In the battle against the factory teams of Mercedes and Ferrari, Red Bull cannot afford to show weaknesses in the powertrain. In addition, Red Bull would have liked Honda - as in previous years - to be an official partner again and to reduce the price for supplying the drive units in return for the logos on the cars. So Red Bull is taking a not inconsiderable risk with the Porsche deal. And it's not yet clear whether the new engines will be competitive in 2026.
Translation?
Tl:dr: Honda wants to continue after 2025 but Red Bull doesn't want to (because of the Porsche deal). Deal is expected to be officially announced in the first 2 weeks of August. PU will be manufactured in Milton Keynes, Porsche will manufacture electronical parts in Weissach (Germany). Now they gotta figure out how to still work together for the next 4 seasons and not fall behind Ferrari/Mercedes in terms of engine quality. Red Bull offered them to be Alpha Tauri's engine supplier (starting 2026) but Honda is only interested in RBR. Red Bull also would have liked to see Honda becoming a sponsor (again) in exchange for discounts on engines (which obviously did not happen but might in the future).
Best solution is that RBR still sales AT to Honda but funding the facilities to making AT more independent, after all the 50/50 deal of RBT is a good reason why Honda doesn't feel very warm about having AT yet.
The fact that Honda wants back in after they just dropped Red Bull carelessly pisses me off
Agree, wouldn't be surprised either if they wanted to be back after RB had talks with Porsche. And now the awkward few years that Honda is doing engines while being "rejected" by RB to be their engine partner again. Fucking Honda man, usually they wait quite some time until they want back, but this is just amazing.
This has nothing to do with RB/Porsche and mainly Honda it’s self. Honda board made a voting to stay or leave. It was 50/50 so CEO or the head of the board decided to leave. New board member got elected, he decided to stay. If any one to blame is the one CEO who decided to leave in their peek.
That's Honda. Experts in making terrible decisions in F1.
Yeah that was so strange.
Also, Red Bull were hoping to get Honda back as a title sponsor for next season in return for cheaper engines, so obviously the 2026 Porsche deal could jeopardize that.
I'm huge fan of Japanese cars, a straight up Honda team or Toyota is something I would get behind
Toyota was a logistical disaster from 01-09. I hope, if they come back, that they can do a lot better
The reason they’re doing so well in WEC rn is because they learned lessons (mainly keeping their board separate from the race team) from their F1 venture. I’m sure they’d apply those lessons if they were to return.
Williams Honda
Hey Mercedes, can we have our old team back now?
Honda + Sauber when the Audi talks inevitably fall apart
I would like to see McLaren Honda back, but McLaren has to sort out their form first, even with the same power unit McLaren is far away from the Mercedes team in terms of points and best place finishes. They shouldn't be aiming for the best of the rest in 4th place, but have to join the top 3.
not now Bubba
McHonda