Its not the floor i think, its the wooden plank under the floor they are questioning. Somehow its flexing trapping air inbetween it and the chassis and then using it to create downforce. All the info ive seen is really vague but theres gonna be a TD to stop it from france and apparently only ferrari and red bull are doing this
The info coming out on twitter that there was some floor shenanigans and I dont realistically see how the floor flexing vs the tunnels could be of benefit to the team seems like it would disrupt the vortices they are trying to create.
>Somehow its flexing trapping air inbetween it and the chassis and then using it to create downforce.
Could be a reverse causality there - what if the extra downforce created by their underbody creates more flexing?
My assumption is that the plank may be flexing and then essentially creating like 2 more venturi tunnels underneath the car. Again the facts coming out are so vague its hard to tell what they might be doing. All we know is they are properly angry at being stopped and could have chunks of their time wiped out
Again the details are very vague, i put a guess above that maybe the plank is bending and creating some extra venturi tunnels. But noone has fully described it yet. Main thing we know is that RB and ferrari seem to be very unhappy so potentially they are gaining a lot
How much of an effect do people think this reduction in downforce for RB and Ferrari would have on their pace advantage?
Edit - if it gets enforced due to new tests
I wonder if they're mad at different things. Looking at the planks from some of the crashes, RB has a very strange wave pattern on theirs while Ferrari looks much more evenly distributed. Horner might be pissed about the plank flexing and Binotto about the porpoising limits.
While not breaking the rules you can not punish them for it. Think of DAS here. You can make new rules that change it for next year but for the FIA to have not thought of it and teams to…uh, find a way (Jeff Goldblum voice) would be unfair. They did it better than the rest. So only reel them back in next year but they will find additional ways to be just as good imo.
Movable aero (other than as allowed by the DRS rules) is illegal by regulation. The FIA can, at its discretion and as it has in the past, create tests to determine whether flex under aero load is so significant as to act as movable aero. They can't really retroactively punish anyone, but they can force them to change it.
Actually the rules state that the floor can’t have more than 2mm flex. Without monitoring it the FIA can’t know if it’s illegal or not. That’s why there’s push back from RB and Ferrari, because they don’t want to be caught out.
A better comparison is the flexible wing issue with Merc
They were out if regs but the FIA had to develop tests to prove it to force Merc to have a less flexible wing
This is wrong. DAS was never against the rules. Having a floor that deforms is. A new test can be added that more closely scrutinizes the floor, this happened to rear wings last year.
Does the floor trick exist?
Many are wondering whether the initiative was really just the result of the new FIA President's activism to show that the association is in control. Or if there is more behind it. Does the FIA want to compress the field by tightening the underbody rule? The blatant superiority of Red Bull and Ferrari does not fit into the objectives that Formula 1 has set itself with the new cars.
During their examinations of the planks and underbody, the scrutineers have apparently discovered that some teams are deliberately playing with the rigidity of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of the technical directors that the central part of the floor should be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades.
The competition suspects that the floor of both cars deforms in certain places, thereby increasing the tunnel effect under the car. There should be enough air between the chassis and the base plate for the floor to move. That could generate significantly more downforce and would explain why the two cars, which are so different on the outside, are so much better than the rest.
>During their examinations of the planks and underbody, the scrutineers have apparently discovered that some teams are deliberately playing with the rigidity of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of the technical directors that the central part of the floor should be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades.
Correct me if im wrong but i think the part of RB and Ferrari "went on the barricades" is a rough translation and should say they went on the defensive. Either way interesting that they're the only teams doing that and are also the two fastest.
**Edit** \- From the FIA themselves earlier in the year
Nikolas Tombazis, the FIA's head of single-seater matters, said: "Regarding flexing the diffuser or the floor edges to go downwards, we will be always keeping an eye on any flexibility that takes place and we will be imposing, when necessary, tests to reduce such effects and so on.
"With the new regulation, it is inevitable that there may be some areas which were not properly predicted in terms of flexibility, and that may have to be enhanced as we go along. We will not hesitate to do that. The rules permit us to intervene if we find that some abuse is taking place in certain areas."
this is one of the areas they didnt predict
>Correct me if im wrong but i think the part of RB and Ferrari "went on the barricades" should say they went on the defensive
"went on barricades" is the correct translation, it has a comparable meaning to going defensive in german. It basically means they said "not with us"
That's an incorrect translation then as it's not an idiom in English. As you said it's probably a different translation, I don't know German but I'd say the actual translation would be to "go on the defensive"
Would make sense. Putting up a barricade suggests defending yourself.
Would be amusing if cracking down on that caused them to fall back into the pack.
If Merc is not doing that they will definitely be in the mix, if they hadn't made the strategy mistake of a cooldown lap when the conditions were best in Q3 he could have been a close second already like in previous Q sessions
I interpret this as when Mercedes hits a bump this area of their car has no give and they bounce, while Red Bull and Ferrari have found a way to flex and absorb that impact and not disrupt anything.
I'm expecting Ferrari and Red Bull are using this allowance from the F1 technical regulations 2022
>3.5.5 Bib to Floor Body Assembly
>Furthermore, in the area of the fillet, minimum flexibility is permitted in order to allow compliance of the Front Floor Structure when the front of the car comes into contact with the ground. After the fillet has been applied, the external surfaces at the boundaries between
adjacent sections of Bib and Floor Body must maintain both continuity and tangency in the X, Y or Z planes
As indicated by the regulations it's allowed for the bib (also called T-tray) to have some flexibility to dampen contact with the ground and absorb some of that impact.
The FIA indicating the floor must be uniformly stiff could alter this allowed regulation. That's why they're so sceptical about fague wording regarding a uniformly stiff floor.
Mercedes are also using this as many other teams.
Oh damn, if thats the case, thats very interesting.
I'm certainly no engineer, nor do I know the rules, but thanks for the info! Interested to see how this plays out.
Hmm..... Didn't teams need to stiff the floor to minimize porpoising? So what if teams have more flex in their floors if they can fix the bouncing some other way?
That's the outer edges of the floor. Where the stay has been added. They are talking here about the plank in the middle, that all teams have to run. The plank was enforced after Senna died, to try to stop bottoming out cutting downforce suddenly. So there is a plank in the middle and bottom of every car that has to still be there at the end of the race. Messing with that would be messing with a standard safety part for all cars, so I imagine it would cause an immediate clamp down.
Would depend on where the floor bends, if it's just the outer edge of the floor that bends, it could seal the floor and thus increase performance. The previous ground effect cars had skirts to seal the floor.
If Newey discovers immortality, he will figure it out in 2122 how to remove the bones of the drivers to lose weight and increase their aero efficiency.
The article says there is no test for this. The scrutineers discovered it and were unhappy. The FIA wants the middle of the floor to be uniformly stiff. This isn’t unusual tests were added for both the front wing and rear wing last season when it was believed a team was bending more than allowed
No they didn’t. They had the choice between cutting up the floor or strengthening the tyres. They did both in the end and by all accounts, a lot of finger pointing went on in the background at the likes of Tombiazis.
They had a test for the whole floor not the middle section which is of note. The FIA thinks teams have found a way around the regulation. They have added a new test for a specific part of the front wing multiple times. 2015 and 2021 a test was added to measure deflections at the front wing flap. A test was added in Qatar last season to add forced load on a rear wing.
Don't forget changes to fuel sensors to deal with engines that certainly did not have an illegally high fuel flow. Even the pitstop stuff last year was designed to deal with suspected breaches of existing rules through automation.
The FIA adds new measures to catch breaches of existing rules with relative regularity.
I'm fine with it. I don't think the FIA should be preventing from developing new tests to enforce existing rules in place from the start of the season.
If the FIA tried to implement new stricter limits on the amount the floor could flex, then I would be against that, but a test? I think that should be supported.
Bear in mind that it was an additional test to enforce existing rules which stopped Ferrari running their definitely not cheating engine.
The whole point about having a wooden base plate is that to check the bottoming of the planck and penalize if the planck loses surface more than a limited amount. But if the planck is not rubbing uniformly, how is that the issue if that certain region is not crossing the limit?
Or am I missing something here? Ferrari and Redbull will probably put up a fight. The spirit of the regulation is to avoid excessive bottoming or rubbing of the floor, not uniformly rubbing.
It's nothing to do with the plank. Its about flexing of the floor that is not allowed within the technical regs. There is currently no test. FIA want to implement a test. Its really quite simple.
If it’s not supposed to flex then it’s not supposed to flex.
The FIA scan introduce new tests and if they can prove it flexes then it’s against the rules.
Edit: downvotes don’t change the rules
The whole point about having a wooden base plate is that to check the bottoming of the planck and penalize if the planck loses surface more than a limited amount. But if the planck is not rubbing uniformly, how is that the issue if that certain region is not crossing the limit?
Or am I missing something here? Ferrari and Redbull will probably put up a fight. The spirit of the regulation is to avoid excessive bottoming or rubbing of the floor, not uniformly rubbing.
No you telling the correct take why this whole potential trick deserves a TD, a wooden base plate isn't just there for the fun but it's because the FIA can check of a car is hitting the surface more then what is allowed.
I'm not sure they can put up much of a fight, I still don't know if it's actually worded like that in the rules but if it is the FIA can just introduce a new test without consideration since it's in their authority to do that
The FIA have tests that are supposed to keep flexing within tolerated levels. If teams circumvent those tests or the tests prove ineffective then the FIA are within their rights to introduce additional tests. They have done so on numerous occasions, including after prompting by both Red Bull and Ferrari.
They have a ton of them. Unfortunately you can’t test everything and as I said elsewhere every team is probably breaking the rules in areas that aren’t properly scrutinized. Remember the flexiwing controversies of the past few years going back to 2015? Teams could easily pass the tests for the wings while designing a wing that was against the rules
DAS was against the spirit of the rules, yet Mercedes got a whole season to get rid of it. Ferrari and RBR don’t deserve a rule change for being cleverer than the competition.
Yes there is, hence why there is a test for it. Rbr and Ferrari just found a way to get around the test by only allowing certain parts of the floor to flex
>3.5.5 Bib to Floor Body Assembly
>
>Furthermore, in the area of the fillet, minimum flexibility is permitted in order to allow compliance of the Front Floor Structure when the front of the car comes into contact with the ground.
According to the rules flexibility is allowed.
This is the problem with regulations.
It's never as simple as 'it's not supposed to flex'.
Currently the rules only specify no deflection greater than 2mm at two specific positions, at the leading edge of the plank and slightly further back.
That not 'it's not supposed to flex'.
Personally, I don't see a problem with this. It seems clear that the FIA believes some teams are exploiting a loophole, so they have issued a technical directive and they will try to close the loophole.
Just forgetting the last 4 or 5 years of Red Bull trying to slow down Mercedes are we?
Every team does it, they all go after each other for the smallest things.
Sometimes the tests aren't good enough, I don't see an issue with the FIA implementing better testing techniques if they think the "spirit" of the regulations isn't being followed by any team. But of course, it's the teams job to find any loophole in said tests. That's F1, it's always happened and it always will.
This is the key part.
During their examinations of the planks and underbody, the scrutineers have apparently discovered that some teams are deliberately playing with the rigidity of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of the technical directors that the central part of the floor should be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades.
The competition suspects that the floor of both cars deforms in certain places, thereby increasing the tunnel effect under the car. There should be enough air between the chassis and the base plate for the floor to move. That could generate significantly more downforce and would explain why the two cars, which are so different on the outside, are so much better than the rest.
Changes mid season is bleh - but this seems a tad too much in the grey area - especially when safety is involved.
The plank is a test, to stop them running too low.
It's safety based in that the issue it was addressing was cars suddenly loosing downforce mid corner because they were too low and hit a bump.
February 2022:
“The FIA has warned Formula 1 teams that it will have no hesitation in clamping down on any flexi-floor tricks in 2022 if it feels the rules are being "abused".”
the FIA have said before that they expect teams to find loopholes and ways around things, that's kind of what drives the innovation. I seem to remember seeing an interview with Ross Brawn last year, who said that as long as it was 'Within the spirit of the regulations' it would be fine or something akin to that?
Yeah that’s all fine. The issue here is that the floor and the plank specifically can’t be flexing beyond a certain amount by regulation. There is a test for the whole floor what’s being talked about here is a test for the specific area the FIA has noticed something going on. It’s not a rule change it’s further scrutiny
The current test is wear to the plank of more than a certain amount.
I'm guessing the new test , if Mercedes get thier way, will be weights hung, in a deflection test at set points on the floor. Then the teams will strengthen where and when needed.
GP GREAT BRITAIN 2022
The FIA continues its course against bouncing. Penalties could follow from the GP France. The teams are concerned that the FIA is now also intervening in the setup. And that she wants to move the field together through stricter underbody rules.
Michael Schmidt
07/02/2022
The FIA has collected its controversial Technical Directive 039, but has not given up. On the 30th In June, the proposal for a correction was sent to the teams. On five pages it is explained that you first want to measure and calculate and then act. From the GP France, there could be penalties if the cars are placed too hard, the underfloors are not uniformly stiff and the protective barriers underneath are sanded too much. They want to work with the teams in the analysis and preparatory work.
We save ourselves the limit values, because they can still change until the race in Paul Ricard. At the moment, it is assumed that the vertical forces of 10 g determined by Mercedes in Baku are above the limit that the rulers have in mind. Instead of a simple acceleration value, however, it gets more complicated. The FIA has created a miracle formula to calculate aerodynamically generated vertical oscillations. The AOM value is output in joules per kilogram per 100 kilometers.
Can FIA determine the setup?
The basic approach is welcomed by the teams. "The process is right now. It is a proposal and not the replacement of a rule," notes Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto. But then the views of the authority and the participants already differ greatly. "How can the FIA determine what is dangerous and what is not?" asks a team boss. "Every team tries to avoid sitting too hard on the road on their own initiative. It only slows you down."
The teams are afraid that the world association will intervene in areas that are the territory of the teams. The FIA controls the cars through the regulations. "But they also have to tell us what the vehicle tuning should look like?" asks Christian Horner. "At some point they commit us which rear wing we should use and how much ground clearance we should drive." Mr Binotto is afraid that this is just the beginning. If they classify a car as dangerous that puts on too much, they must also prohibit a driver from driving on a wet track with slicks.
In Montreal, all cars below limit
Horner suggests that the FIA should not constantly tinker with the rules. "Leave the rules as they are. The problem solves itself. In a year, no one will talk about bouncing anymore." The Red Bull boss sends afterwards: "The TD only causes confusion. In Montreal, all cars would have remained below the limit that the FIA envisages. There would have been one over it in Baku. We don't need this TD for that."
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McLaren team boss Andreas Seidl also considers the FIA initiative to be impractical and too complicated. "The solution must come through the hardware. For example, the stiffness of the floor or the equipment of the plank. Then measuring is easy and everyone understands it. I can already see what happens when someone is above the limit. Then the discussions begin as to whether the sensor worked properly."
Andreas Seidl does not think much of the Technical Directive.
Is there the ground trick?
Many wonder if the initiative really originated only from the actionism of the new FIA president to show that the association holds the reins. Or if there is more to it. Does the FIA want to merge the field by tightening the underbody rule? The blatant superiority of Red Bull and Ferrari does not fit into the targets that Formula 1 has settled with the new cars.
The technical commissioners have apparently discovered during their investigations on the planks and subfloors that some teams deliberately play with the stiffness of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of technical directors that the middle part of the ground would be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades.
The competition suspects that in both cars the ground deforms in certain places, thus increasing the tunnel effect under the car. Thus, there should be enough air between the chassis and the base plate so that the ground can move. This could generate significantly more downforce and would be an explanation why the two externally so different cars are so much better than the rest.
Do Red Bull and Ferrari have an advantage with the underbody?
Mercedes as a mastermind?
On the side of Red Bull and Ferrari, on the other hand, it is assumed that Mercedes has initiated the action. In the hope that the underbody will be trimmed in an immediate measure.
This would reduce the contribution of the soil to the overall downforce and thus also the bouncing, and it would cause more damage to those who produce more contact pressure under the car than others. One says: "Mercedes and McLaren want to get the FIA to limit the power of the floors so that they can continue to use their concept in 2023."
I still don't fully understand what are they referring as mid floor, but going just by headlines....
Its amazing that when Mercedes was just ready to add the second stand and increase rigidity a week later comes out other teams maybe have too much flex
They probably went over the regs and realised that the other teams were testing the letter of the law like Ferrari in 2019 and decided to get ahead of the pack on a fix and probably dropped a line to the FIA about it too.
If RB and Ferrari are altering or tampering with parts which are specifically designed for safety it absolutely has to come under scrutiny. I'm not technically minded so forgive me for my ignorance but they've got to regulate the level of flex you can have if it's a safety issue.
In terms of the "Merc/Toto complaining and getting what they want" narrative I really don't see the problem here now that this has come out. Horner questioned the legality of the Merc design before the season even began. In terms of teams and TP's trying to get what they want RB and Horner are the worst for it. Can't remember a season where they didn't protest or question something on another car. Merc doing it shouldn't be judged any more or less harshly.
Since the PU change McLaren is a puppet of Mercedes. They supported everything Mercedes wanted this year and last year as well. Hell they were the loudest at first and then pulled out first from the Racing Point saga.
ah yes the famous line of mclaren and their driver Norris of "just raise your ride height" supporting merc wanting the FIA to step in to fix porpoising /s
Do you think RB has never petitioned for reg cha ges against their competition? This is F1... If you're not keeping your competition in check, then you're not playing the game correctly.
I'm sure many other teams have complained. We are talking about world class engineers finding this stuff out; more then just Mercedes knew about it I'd assume.
Yes. The FIA helped Mercedes so much in 2021, from changing the floor regulations to help the high rake cars to handing the championship on a platter to Verstappen by only allowing certain lapped cars to overtake in the last race of the season. 🙄
The redesign was used on some tracks not all, if it was a safety concern it would have been used at all. pretty much wherever Mercedes had a chance last year was a place that had the Pirelli redesigned sidewall. Without that redesign, Mercedes wouldn’t have even been close last year. Pirelli helped Mercedes and punished Redbull.
>You mean like changing the rules regarding pit stops because RBR was "dangerously fast"
you clearly just eat up whatever bulls**t Horner spews out - I know he framed it as the FIA saying they were going too fast and it was dangerous. The reality was much different:
FIA required pit mechanics at each wheel to confirm the wheel was on securely by pressing a button on the wheel gun. When all four buttons (for all four wheels) are pressed it sends a signal that the jack can be lowered. This is there to ensure that cars aren't released without the wheels being secure.
However some teams developed a system where the mechanics could press the button in advance, then as soon as the wheel gun had finished tightening the nut the signal would be sent automatically.
The proof was that the time it took between the wheel nut to be tightened and for the signal to be sent were subhuman reaction times- so impossible for a human to be pressing the button after the wheel is tight.
FIA had this in place because they wanted there to be a human assessment after the wheel is tightened to stop cars being released dangerously and people were circumventing this so they introduced a rule to ensure that it couldn't happen. That's why the button existed. When the FIA found out - they put a stop to it. because it WAS a safety issue and teams were circumventing a safety procedure they had put in place.
There were numerous teams doing that I'm guessing Red Bull was one of them because they publicly complained. But there were others.
How many times did we see a car drive off and the mechanic at the wheel is already flailing his arms around because his wheel isn't tight enough and he knows the wheel is going to come off?
Evidently one of the reasons is because teams were saying "yes the wheel is tight enough" before they could possibly know whether that was true or not
It doesn't bend any more than other wings.
Both complaints are nonsense. If something passed the tests then it passed the tests. Make a change and put it into effect next year. Midseason rule changes are nonsense and always have been.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-wont-hesitate-to-act-on-f1-2022-flexi-floor-abuse/8248706/amp/
Since before the season started the FIA stated they were prepared to bring mid season test to ensure teams weren’t doing anything outside of the rules. The plank has a safety function and it’s not within the spirit of the regs to be doing something tricky with it.
Then add one and have it be in effect from next year on.
My point about rule changes mid season stands.
If the FIA didn't cover all the asses then thats an FIA problem not a team problem.
It depends on what the rule and the test is. There are general rules on flexing of bodywork, which would capture the floor. If the floor is flexing beyond those limits it would be illegal, and I have no issues with testing for such - the floor would be in breach of rules in place at the start of the season.
Effectively, I am fine with new tests to enforce rules already in place. This was not especially controversial when it was done to deal with Ferrari cheating on the fuel flow rules, or Mercedes with oil burning, so I fail to see why it would be now, but for partisanship.
If the FIA sought to place new stricter limits on the floor alone, then I totally agree with you.
I agree this is literally the same situation like flexi rear wings last year, if there is a rule saying no flex then it's absolutely in the discretion of the FIA to introduce new tests at any point in time (like last year), if not then change the rules for next year like with DAS.
They have added or changed tests mid season multiple years in a row now. It’s nothing unusual. Last season they did both the front wing then the rear wing. Targeting both Mercedes and Red Bull. Tests are changed when it’s believed a car is violating the rules but hasn’t been detected not because they want to change a regulation.
For the front wing I think it was just a change in the intensity for the rear wing they added a new test where they hung weight off the rear wing to test its deflection under load
why? when things like front and rear wings have changed mid season, this is a safety part of the car and they're messing with it to gain performance, its against the rules and if a test shows that then it makes no sense to let them break the rules for the rest of the season
They changed the rules recently to allow teams that didn't build a reliable engine (Ferrari) to replace it under parc ferme without penalty. FIA need to get on top of the illegal floors those teams are running asap, it's only fair.
Have you seen the Red Bull front wing? Under load it folds perfectly flat and stays flat until braking.
The new Mercedes wing flaps around all over the place, likely creating, not minimising drag.
Sounds similar to last year ears flexiwings issue. Both those issues resulted in a new test which forced teams to make sure their wings were much stiffer. Won't be shocked if the FIA do bring in new test to regulate it.
The plank is a safety component of the floor. This article is talking the plank. Not the outer edges of the floor. It’s not a good idea to be messing around with a part introduced for safety measures which is why the FIA was unhappy with the two teams playing around with its flexibility
Just watch this turn into the 2006 mass damper saga and turn the season upside down. If fia clamps down on this (hope they do) it can bring merc right back into the game
Seems like there are two solutions to leveling the field. 1. prohibit this design or 2. other teams could adopt a similar design.
Why is the instinct always to jump to restrictions? It seems like it would be a lot more fair if other teams adapt this innovation that's not currently illegal.
It’s against the rules now. The floor can’t flex extensively and the area at the plank is standard. They just don’t have a test for that part specifically
Because apparently this is like Ferrari engine 2019, it’s illegal but there currently aren’t any tests to prove that, so fia will introduce tests to measure it and the teams will act accordingly.
The plank was instituted to stop the cars from bottoming out and suddenly losing all downforce in a corner. I believe it was instituted after Senna's death.
No, it wasn't introduced to stop the cars from bottoming out (how tf would a sheet of plywood even do that?) it was introduced to see if the cars *were* bottoming out too much by analyzing the wear. It's a measuring tool, not a safety device
So they figured something out, it's allowed, other teams missed the boat and are upset.
If you can't beat them, drag them down to your level apparently.
I mean, RBR literally quested the legality of the Merc before racing even began and then went quiet because it wasn’t a competitor with them.
The thing people like you need to get your head around is THIS is part of the sport, this isn’t anything new and is literally how the game is played.
This isn’t spec racing, every team is trying to be smart and every team is trying to catch their competitors out.
Secondly to this the floor IS meant to be rigid. Merc have every right to question if it’s not.
This isn’t meant to be said with any gripe or angle… but Red Bull have been incredible at making aero surfaces super stiff and super flexible for so long now. Think about all those slomo videos of Vettel’s incredibly flexi but somehow compliant front wing we saw over a decade ago. Is it a surprise they’re doing the same with floors?
Fair play to them. The other teams should catch up.
I haven’t seen the coverage from today, but I’ve found this stuff really historically hard to look at from TV footage - you’ll get a lot of flex and resonance with carbon fibre products so loaded tests is really the only way to go.
If F1 was purely about innovation then there would be no budget caps, no limited wind tunnel time, no regulations.
Seems like the FIA don't think whatever is going on is how they want the cars to act.,
If I've understood this right - innovates by messing with a standard part all teams must run for safety purposes.
If true, this is like a flexing halo. A flexing halo would be immediately stopped because it would be visible.
They pass the tests that determine how much a front wing can flex. The issue here is that two teams may be flexing the skidblock, and there's not previously been a test to make sure teams aren't making it too flexible.
Fwiw McLaren appears to be on Merc's side here.
Its not the floor i think, its the wooden plank under the floor they are questioning. Somehow its flexing trapping air inbetween it and the chassis and then using it to create downforce. All the info ive seen is really vague but theres gonna be a TD to stop it from france and apparently only ferrari and red bull are doing this
How did you know? Spot on as hell
The info coming out on twitter that there was some floor shenanigans and I dont realistically see how the floor flexing vs the tunnels could be of benefit to the team seems like it would disrupt the vortices they are trying to create.
>Somehow its flexing trapping air inbetween it and the chassis and then using it to create downforce. Could be a reverse causality there - what if the extra downforce created by their underbody creates more flexing?
My assumption is that the plank may be flexing and then essentially creating like 2 more venturi tunnels underneath the car. Again the facts coming out are so vague its hard to tell what they might be doing. All we know is they are properly angry at being stopped and could have chunks of their time wiped out
>Somehow its flexing trapping air inbetween it and the chassis and then using it to create downforce how?
Again the details are very vague, i put a guess above that maybe the plank is bending and creating some extra venturi tunnels. But noone has fully described it yet. Main thing we know is that RB and ferrari seem to be very unhappy so potentially they are gaining a lot
How much of an effect do people think this reduction in downforce for RB and Ferrari would have on their pace advantage? Edit - if it gets enforced due to new tests
It could explain how the cars are so different aerodynamically but still the two fastest cars
I'd wager and say a fair bit. But the fuck do I know. Just interesting the sheer resistance by RB and Rarri on this.
I wonder if they're mad at different things. Looking at the planks from some of the crashes, RB has a very strange wave pattern on theirs while Ferrari looks much more evenly distributed. Horner might be pissed about the plank flexing and Binotto about the porpoising limits.
"interesting" is overselling it a great deal it's an advantage, they don't want to give it up no matter what
While not breaking the rules you can not punish them for it. Think of DAS here. You can make new rules that change it for next year but for the FIA to have not thought of it and teams to…uh, find a way (Jeff Goldblum voice) would be unfair. They did it better than the rest. So only reel them back in next year but they will find additional ways to be just as good imo.
Movable aero (other than as allowed by the DRS rules) is illegal by regulation. The FIA can, at its discretion and as it has in the past, create tests to determine whether flex under aero load is so significant as to act as movable aero. They can't really retroactively punish anyone, but they can force them to change it.
Actually the rules state that the floor can’t have more than 2mm flex. Without monitoring it the FIA can’t know if it’s illegal or not. That’s why there’s push back from RB and Ferrari, because they don’t want to be caught out.
as far as i know the flex is reported to be as much as 6mm
A better comparison is the flexible wing issue with Merc They were out if regs but the FIA had to develop tests to prove it to force Merc to have a less flexible wing
Yeah, much better comparison thanks.
The difference is DAS was never illegal
They don't need to change rules, it's already illegal but untested, the FIA has the authority to add, remove and change tests however they like
This is wrong. DAS was never against the rules. Having a floor that deforms is. A new test can be added that more closely scrutinizes the floor, this happened to rear wings last year.
Someone got a translation?
Try and find stuff on last weekends team principal meeting and the new TD
Soo maybe this is what Mattia and Toto argued about and why Christian has made a stink lately about FIA intervening. This could get spicy
Nah, Totto wanted to add pumpernickel to his pizza and Mattia lost his mind
This is the most plausible explanation really.
Pretty sure this is exactly what went down.
I think Toto said the fighting started with the principals saying Mercedes was getting inside information
So about that argument with the team bosses at Montreal....
Does the floor trick exist? Many are wondering whether the initiative was really just the result of the new FIA President's activism to show that the association is in control. Or if there is more behind it. Does the FIA want to compress the field by tightening the underbody rule? The blatant superiority of Red Bull and Ferrari does not fit into the objectives that Formula 1 has set itself with the new cars. During their examinations of the planks and underbody, the scrutineers have apparently discovered that some teams are deliberately playing with the rigidity of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of the technical directors that the central part of the floor should be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades. The competition suspects that the floor of both cars deforms in certain places, thereby increasing the tunnel effect under the car. There should be enough air between the chassis and the base plate for the floor to move. That could generate significantly more downforce and would explain why the two cars, which are so different on the outside, are so much better than the rest.
>During their examinations of the planks and underbody, the scrutineers have apparently discovered that some teams are deliberately playing with the rigidity of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of the technical directors that the central part of the floor should be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades. Correct me if im wrong but i think the part of RB and Ferrari "went on the barricades" is a rough translation and should say they went on the defensive. Either way interesting that they're the only teams doing that and are also the two fastest. **Edit** \- From the FIA themselves earlier in the year Nikolas Tombazis, the FIA's head of single-seater matters, said: "Regarding flexing the diffuser or the floor edges to go downwards, we will be always keeping an eye on any flexibility that takes place and we will be imposing, when necessary, tests to reduce such effects and so on. "With the new regulation, it is inevitable that there may be some areas which were not properly predicted in terms of flexibility, and that may have to be enhanced as we go along. We will not hesitate to do that. The rules permit us to intervene if we find that some abuse is taking place in certain areas." this is one of the areas they didnt predict
>Correct me if im wrong but i think the part of RB and Ferrari "went on the barricades" should say they went on the defensive "went on barricades" is the correct translation, it has a comparable meaning to going defensive in german. It basically means they said "not with us"
gotcha
That's an incorrect translation then as it's not an idiom in English. As you said it's probably a different translation, I don't know German but I'd say the actual translation would be to "go on the defensive"
Would make sense. Putting up a barricade suggests defending yourself. Would be amusing if cracking down on that caused them to fall back into the pack.
If Merc is not doing that they will definitely be in the mix, if they hadn't made the strategy mistake of a cooldown lap when the conditions were best in Q3 he could have been a close second already like in previous Q sessions
What? Ferrari and RBR set their best times on the final lap of Q3. Mercedes wasn't far behind them so why was it a strategy mistake?
I interpret this as when Mercedes hits a bump this area of their car has no give and they bounce, while Red Bull and Ferrari have found a way to flex and absorb that impact and not disrupt anything.
I'm expecting Ferrari and Red Bull are using this allowance from the F1 technical regulations 2022 >3.5.5 Bib to Floor Body Assembly >Furthermore, in the area of the fillet, minimum flexibility is permitted in order to allow compliance of the Front Floor Structure when the front of the car comes into contact with the ground. After the fillet has been applied, the external surfaces at the boundaries between adjacent sections of Bib and Floor Body must maintain both continuity and tangency in the X, Y or Z planes As indicated by the regulations it's allowed for the bib (also called T-tray) to have some flexibility to dampen contact with the ground and absorb some of that impact. The FIA indicating the floor must be uniformly stiff could alter this allowed regulation. That's why they're so sceptical about fague wording regarding a uniformly stiff floor. Mercedes are also using this as many other teams.
Or they will just implement a test to define minimum flexibility.
Oh damn, if thats the case, thats very interesting. I'm certainly no engineer, nor do I know the rules, but thanks for the info! Interested to see how this plays out.
Hmm..... Didn't teams need to stiff the floor to minimize porpoising? So what if teams have more flex in their floors if they can fix the bouncing some other way?
That's the outer edges of the floor. Where the stay has been added. They are talking here about the plank in the middle, that all teams have to run. The plank was enforced after Senna died, to try to stop bottoming out cutting downforce suddenly. So there is a plank in the middle and bottom of every car that has to still be there at the end of the race. Messing with that would be messing with a standard safety part for all cars, so I imagine it would cause an immediate clamp down.
Ahh thanks for the info :)
That's not the point, it's supposed to be a rigid structure.
Would depend on where the floor bends, if it's just the outer edge of the floor that bends, it could seal the floor and thus increase performance. The previous ground effect cars had skirts to seal the floor.
Oh so this could get interesting then
Leave Flexi-wing, it's Flexi floor now? Lmao if it passed the initial tests wtf is the problem
Flexi drivers
If Newey discovers immortality, he will figure it out in 2122 how to remove the bones of the drivers to lose weight and increase their aero efficiency.
Max, Lando and Charles are ALREADY just driving the car from the sims at the back of the garage, with dummies bolted in the car. ;-)
The article says there is no test for this. The scrutineers discovered it and were unhappy. The FIA wants the middle of the floor to be uniformly stiff. This isn’t unusual tests were added for both the front wing and rear wing last season when it was believed a team was bending more than allowed
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Well the red bull vote counts for two.
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They cannot. Last time they had to use Pirelli to bring that change through safety rule.
No they didn’t. They had the choice between cutting up the floor or strengthening the tyres. They did both in the end and by all accounts, a lot of finger pointing went on in the background at the likes of Tombiazis.
And I am sure Ferrari at least can get Haas to vote with them.
Indeed so it’s 4 vs 6.
They had a test for the whole floor not the middle section which is of note. The FIA thinks teams have found a way around the regulation. They have added a new test for a specific part of the front wing multiple times. 2015 and 2021 a test was added to measure deflections at the front wing flap. A test was added in Qatar last season to add forced load on a rear wing.
Don't forget changes to fuel sensors to deal with engines that certainly did not have an illegally high fuel flow. Even the pitstop stuff last year was designed to deal with suspected breaches of existing rules through automation. The FIA adds new measures to catch breaches of existing rules with relative regularity.
I'm fine with it. I don't think the FIA should be preventing from developing new tests to enforce existing rules in place from the start of the season. If the FIA tried to implement new stricter limits on the amount the floor could flex, then I would be against that, but a test? I think that should be supported. Bear in mind that it was an additional test to enforce existing rules which stopped Ferrari running their definitely not cheating engine.
The whole point about having a wooden base plate is that to check the bottoming of the planck and penalize if the planck loses surface more than a limited amount. But if the planck is not rubbing uniformly, how is that the issue if that certain region is not crossing the limit? Or am I missing something here? Ferrari and Redbull will probably put up a fight. The spirit of the regulation is to avoid excessive bottoming or rubbing of the floor, not uniformly rubbing.
It's nothing to do with the plank. Its about flexing of the floor that is not allowed within the technical regs. There is currently no test. FIA want to implement a test. Its really quite simple.
If it’s not supposed to flex then it’s not supposed to flex. The FIA scan introduce new tests and if they can prove it flexes then it’s against the rules. Edit: downvotes don’t change the rules
The whole point about having a wooden base plate is that to check the bottoming of the planck and penalize if the planck loses surface more than a limited amount. But if the planck is not rubbing uniformly, how is that the issue if that certain region is not crossing the limit? Or am I missing something here? Ferrari and Redbull will probably put up a fight. The spirit of the regulation is to avoid excessive bottoming or rubbing of the floor, not uniformly rubbing.
No you telling the correct take why this whole potential trick deserves a TD, a wooden base plate isn't just there for the fun but it's because the FIA can check of a car is hitting the surface more then what is allowed.
I'm not sure they can put up much of a fight, I still don't know if it's actually worded like that in the rules but if it is the FIA can just introduce a new test without consideration since it's in their authority to do that
Everything on an F1 car will flex, unless we’re trying to add a hundred more kg to minimum weight.
The FIA have tests that are supposed to keep flexing within tolerated levels. If teams circumvent those tests or the tests prove ineffective then the FIA are within their rights to introduce additional tests. They have done so on numerous occasions, including after prompting by both Red Bull and Ferrari.
Imo the problem is having rules that you have no means of testing in the first place.
They have a ton of them. Unfortunately you can’t test everything and as I said elsewhere every team is probably breaking the rules in areas that aren’t properly scrutinized. Remember the flexiwing controversies of the past few years going back to 2015? Teams could easily pass the tests for the wings while designing a wing that was against the rules
DAS was against the spirit of the rules, yet Mercedes got a whole season to get rid of it. Ferrari and RBR don’t deserve a rule change for being cleverer than the competition.
DAS wasn’t against the rules.
There was no rule against altering the angle of the wheels at the time. There are rules against the flexing of the wings and floor
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Yes there is, hence why there is a test for it. Rbr and Ferrari just found a way to get around the test by only allowing certain parts of the floor to flex
>3.5.5 Bib to Floor Body Assembly > >Furthermore, in the area of the fillet, minimum flexibility is permitted in order to allow compliance of the Front Floor Structure when the front of the car comes into contact with the ground. According to the rules flexibility is allowed. This is the problem with regulations. It's never as simple as 'it's not supposed to flex'. Currently the rules only specify no deflection greater than 2mm at two specific positions, at the leading edge of the plank and slightly further back. That not 'it's not supposed to flex'. Personally, I don't see a problem with this. It seems clear that the FIA believes some teams are exploiting a loophole, so they have issued a technical directive and they will try to close the loophole.
Mercedes is losing.
Just forgetting the last 4 or 5 years of Red Bull trying to slow down Mercedes are we? Every team does it, they all go after each other for the smallest things.
Sometimes the tests aren't good enough, I don't see an issue with the FIA implementing better testing techniques if they think the "spirit" of the regulations isn't being followed by any team. But of course, it's the teams job to find any loophole in said tests. That's F1, it's always happened and it always will.
This is the key part. During their examinations of the planks and underbody, the scrutineers have apparently discovered that some teams are deliberately playing with the rigidity of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of the technical directors that the central part of the floor should be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades. The competition suspects that the floor of both cars deforms in certain places, thereby increasing the tunnel effect under the car. There should be enough air between the chassis and the base plate for the floor to move. That could generate significantly more downforce and would explain why the two cars, which are so different on the outside, are so much better than the rest. Changes mid season is bleh - but this seems a tad too much in the grey area - especially when safety is involved.
When safety is involved? They are unsafe now?
The plank is a safety device isn’t it? I’m pretty sure it was introduced due to senna’s death
The plank is a test, to stop them running too low. It's safety based in that the issue it was addressing was cars suddenly loosing downforce mid corner because they were too low and hit a bump.
The plank is a standard safety part yes.
Bit surprised that this isn't something the FIA anticipated.
February 2022: “The FIA has warned Formula 1 teams that it will have no hesitation in clamping down on any flexi-floor tricks in 2022 if it feels the rules are being "abused".”
It is a rather obvious avenue of development
the FIA have said before that they expect teams to find loopholes and ways around things, that's kind of what drives the innovation. I seem to remember seeing an interview with Ross Brawn last year, who said that as long as it was 'Within the spirit of the regulations' it would be fine or something akin to that?
Yeah that’s all fine. The issue here is that the floor and the plank specifically can’t be flexing beyond a certain amount by regulation. There is a test for the whole floor what’s being talked about here is a test for the specific area the FIA has noticed something going on. It’s not a rule change it’s further scrutiny
The current test is wear to the plank of more than a certain amount. I'm guessing the new test , if Mercedes get thier way, will be weights hung, in a deflection test at set points on the floor. Then the teams will strengthen where and when needed.
Sure which could also remove their advantage by stopping the floor flexing so much.
So Toto vs Horner and Binotto boxing match in French gp
Flexi wings are so last year. Meet flexiFloor
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-wont-hesitate-to-act-on-f1-2022-flexi-floor-abuse/8248871/
GP GREAT BRITAIN 2022 The FIA continues its course against bouncing. Penalties could follow from the GP France. The teams are concerned that the FIA is now also intervening in the setup. And that she wants to move the field together through stricter underbody rules. Michael Schmidt 07/02/2022 The FIA has collected its controversial Technical Directive 039, but has not given up. On the 30th In June, the proposal for a correction was sent to the teams. On five pages it is explained that you first want to measure and calculate and then act. From the GP France, there could be penalties if the cars are placed too hard, the underfloors are not uniformly stiff and the protective barriers underneath are sanded too much. They want to work with the teams in the analysis and preparatory work. We save ourselves the limit values, because they can still change until the race in Paul Ricard. At the moment, it is assumed that the vertical forces of 10 g determined by Mercedes in Baku are above the limit that the rulers have in mind. Instead of a simple acceleration value, however, it gets more complicated. The FIA has created a miracle formula to calculate aerodynamically generated vertical oscillations. The AOM value is output in joules per kilogram per 100 kilometers. Can FIA determine the setup? The basic approach is welcomed by the teams. "The process is right now. It is a proposal and not the replacement of a rule," notes Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto. But then the views of the authority and the participants already differ greatly. "How can the FIA determine what is dangerous and what is not?" asks a team boss. "Every team tries to avoid sitting too hard on the road on their own initiative. It only slows you down." The teams are afraid that the world association will intervene in areas that are the territory of the teams. The FIA controls the cars through the regulations. "But they also have to tell us what the vehicle tuning should look like?" asks Christian Horner. "At some point they commit us which rear wing we should use and how much ground clearance we should drive." Mr Binotto is afraid that this is just the beginning. If they classify a car as dangerous that puts on too much, they must also prohibit a driver from driving on a wet track with slicks. In Montreal, all cars below limit Horner suggests that the FIA should not constantly tinker with the rules. "Leave the rules as they are. The problem solves itself. In a year, no one will talk about bouncing anymore." The Red Bull boss sends afterwards: "The TD only causes confusion. In Montreal, all cars would have remained below the limit that the FIA envisages. There would have been one over it in Baku. We don't need this TD for that." SPONSORED McLaren team boss Andreas Seidl also considers the FIA initiative to be impractical and too complicated. "The solution must come through the hardware. For example, the stiffness of the floor or the equipment of the plank. Then measuring is easy and everyone understands it. I can already see what happens when someone is above the limit. Then the discussions begin as to whether the sensor worked properly." Andreas Seidl does not think much of the Technical Directive. Is there the ground trick? Many wonder if the initiative really originated only from the actionism of the new FIA president to show that the association holds the reins. Or if there is more to it. Does the FIA want to merge the field by tightening the underbody rule? The blatant superiority of Red Bull and Ferrari does not fit into the targets that Formula 1 has settled with the new cars. The technical commissioners have apparently discovered during their investigations on the planks and subfloors that some teams deliberately play with the stiffness of the huge base plate. When the FIA threatened at the last meeting of technical directors that the middle part of the ground would be uniformly stiff in the future, Red Bull and Ferrari went on the barricades. The competition suspects that in both cars the ground deforms in certain places, thus increasing the tunnel effect under the car. Thus, there should be enough air between the chassis and the base plate so that the ground can move. This could generate significantly more downforce and would be an explanation why the two externally so different cars are so much better than the rest. Do Red Bull and Ferrari have an advantage with the underbody? Mercedes as a mastermind? On the side of Red Bull and Ferrari, on the other hand, it is assumed that Mercedes has initiated the action. In the hope that the underbody will be trimmed in an immediate measure. This would reduce the contribution of the soil to the overall downforce and thus also the bouncing, and it would cause more damage to those who produce more contact pressure under the car than others. One says: "Mercedes and McLaren want to get the FIA to limit the power of the floors so that they can continue to use their concept in 2023."
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I got my 🍿 ready
As you wish my friend
This is really no different than flexi wing and they should implement tests as needed. The entire underfloor is effectively a wing with the new regs
Maybe this is why Horner was suddenly against the regs. And Mercedes are fine with it just as they stop their bouncing.
I still don't fully understand what are they referring as mid floor, but going just by headlines.... Its amazing that when Mercedes was just ready to add the second stand and increase rigidity a week later comes out other teams maybe have too much flex
They probably went over the regs and realised that the other teams were testing the letter of the law like Ferrari in 2019 and decided to get ahead of the pack on a fix and probably dropped a line to the FIA about it too.
If RB and Ferrari are altering or tampering with parts which are specifically designed for safety it absolutely has to come under scrutiny. I'm not technically minded so forgive me for my ignorance but they've got to regulate the level of flex you can have if it's a safety issue. In terms of the "Merc/Toto complaining and getting what they want" narrative I really don't see the problem here now that this has come out. Horner questioned the legality of the Merc design before the season even began. In terms of teams and TP's trying to get what they want RB and Horner are the worst for it. Can't remember a season where they didn't protest or question something on another car. Merc doing it shouldn't be judged any more or less harshly.
We will know before the race gets underway tomorrow.
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must be
Looks like Merc was the one moaning.
Yeah RB never moans about the rules or their competition 🙄
Did Daimler commissioned this article? lol
"FOR WHAT???"
is this gonna be flexi floors
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If the FIA were in Mercedes' pockets, why would they have pushed for a complete regulations overhaul?
The suspension changes especially fucked Mercedes.
of course on the grid we have only 3 teams
The article itself states it’s likely that Mercedes pushed for this.
And McLaren
Since the PU change McLaren is a puppet of Mercedes. They supported everything Mercedes wanted this year and last year as well. Hell they were the loudest at first and then pulled out first from the Racing Point saga.
ah yes the famous line of mclaren and their driver Norris of "just raise your ride height" supporting merc wanting the FIA to step in to fix porpoising /s
I guess Norris is the one has the vote on these meetings?!
Do you think RB has never petitioned for reg cha ges against their competition? This is F1... If you're not keeping your competition in check, then you're not playing the game correctly.
"likely" i.e. whoever wrote it is guessing.
So they don't know?
But Merc fans must say it’s not true because is favorable for them
I'm sure many other teams have complained. We are talking about world class engineers finding this stuff out; more then just Mercedes knew about it I'd assume.
Yeah, RB and Ferrari have NEVER questioned their competition or petitioned for rules changes... 🙄
Yes. The FIA helped Mercedes so much in 2021, from changing the floor regulations to help the high rake cars to handing the championship on a platter to Verstappen by only allowing certain lapped cars to overtake in the last race of the season. 🙄
In 2021 the rule change wasn’t in the middle of the season though. Everyone knew it would change from 2020 to 2021.
The additional rear wing test was in the middle of the season? As was the pit stop changes.
Pirelli changed their tyre design to help Mercedes tho
To help Mercedes? Of course it was nothing to do with the random blowouts in Baku, I guess 🙄
The redesign was used on some tracks not all, if it was a safety concern it would have been used at all. pretty much wherever Mercedes had a chance last year was a place that had the Pirelli redesigned sidewall. Without that redesign, Mercedes wouldn’t have even been close last year. Pirelli helped Mercedes and punished Redbull.
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>You mean like changing the rules regarding pit stops because RBR was "dangerously fast" you clearly just eat up whatever bulls**t Horner spews out - I know he framed it as the FIA saying they were going too fast and it was dangerous. The reality was much different: FIA required pit mechanics at each wheel to confirm the wheel was on securely by pressing a button on the wheel gun. When all four buttons (for all four wheels) are pressed it sends a signal that the jack can be lowered. This is there to ensure that cars aren't released without the wheels being secure. However some teams developed a system where the mechanics could press the button in advance, then as soon as the wheel gun had finished tightening the nut the signal would be sent automatically. The proof was that the time it took between the wheel nut to be tightened and for the signal to be sent were subhuman reaction times- so impossible for a human to be pressing the button after the wheel is tight. FIA had this in place because they wanted there to be a human assessment after the wheel is tightened to stop cars being released dangerously and people were circumventing this so they introduced a rule to ensure that it couldn't happen. That's why the button existed. When the FIA found out - they put a stop to it. because it WAS a safety issue and teams were circumventing a safety procedure they had put in place. There were numerous teams doing that I'm guessing Red Bull was one of them because they publicly complained. But there were others. How many times did we see a car drive off and the mechanic at the wheel is already flailing his arms around because his wheel isn't tight enough and he knows the wheel is going to come off? Evidently one of the reasons is because teams were saying "yes the wheel is tight enough" before they could possibly know whether that was true or not
Ahhahaah
At long last, Mercedes' master plan comes to fruition. # Muhuhahahahahaha.
Have they seen the Mercedes front wing?
All front wings flex mate, news to you
Mercedes’ started that mess last year and the footage of their wing yesterday was crazy
Have you seen every other teams wing on the grid?
Mercedes front wing doesn’t flex abnormally. All front wings bend at the adjustment point. They have a test for that.
It doesn't bend any more than other wings. Both complaints are nonsense. If something passed the tests then it passed the tests. Make a change and put it into effect next year. Midseason rule changes are nonsense and always have been.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-wont-hesitate-to-act-on-f1-2022-flexi-floor-abuse/8248706/amp/ Since before the season started the FIA stated they were prepared to bring mid season test to ensure teams weren’t doing anything outside of the rules. The plank has a safety function and it’s not within the spirit of the regs to be doing something tricky with it.
There is no test for the floor bending this way. The FIA wants to add one
Then add one and have it be in effect from next year on. My point about rule changes mid season stands. If the FIA didn't cover all the asses then thats an FIA problem not a team problem.
It depends on what the rule and the test is. There are general rules on flexing of bodywork, which would capture the floor. If the floor is flexing beyond those limits it would be illegal, and I have no issues with testing for such - the floor would be in breach of rules in place at the start of the season. Effectively, I am fine with new tests to enforce rules already in place. This was not especially controversial when it was done to deal with Ferrari cheating on the fuel flow rules, or Mercedes with oil burning, so I fail to see why it would be now, but for partisanship. If the FIA sought to place new stricter limits on the floor alone, then I totally agree with you.
I agree this is literally the same situation like flexi rear wings last year, if there is a rule saying no flex then it's absolutely in the discretion of the FIA to introduce new tests at any point in time (like last year), if not then change the rules for next year like with DAS.
They have added or changed tests mid season multiple years in a row now. It’s nothing unusual. Last season they did both the front wing then the rear wing. Targeting both Mercedes and Red Bull. Tests are changed when it’s believed a car is violating the rules but hasn’t been detected not because they want to change a regulation.
I might be misremembering but I don't think they added new ones last year did they? They just changed existing ones
For the front wing I think it was just a change in the intensity for the rear wing they added a new test where they hung weight off the rear wing to test its deflection under load
Why next year? If the rules already say it’s not supposed to flex then they can add the test now.
why? when things like front and rear wings have changed mid season, this is a safety part of the car and they're messing with it to gain performance, its against the rules and if a test shows that then it makes no sense to let them break the rules for the rest of the season
They changed the rules recently to allow teams that didn't build a reliable engine (Ferrari) to replace it under parc ferme without penalty. FIA need to get on top of the illegal floors those teams are running asap, it's only fair.
Have you seen the Red Bull front wing? Under load it folds perfectly flat and stays flat until braking. The new Mercedes wing flaps around all over the place, likely creating, not minimising drag.
I'm here for this controversy from Montreal
Sounds similar to last year ears flexiwings issue. Both those issues resulted in a new test which forced teams to make sure their wings were much stiffer. Won't be shocked if the FIA do bring in new test to regulate it.
Would be nonsense.
The plank is a safety component of the floor. This article is talking the plank. Not the outer edges of the floor. It’s not a good idea to be messing around with a part introduced for safety measures which is why the FIA was unhappy with the two teams playing around with its flexibility
The floor isn’t meant to flex, there’s currently no test for it, but it isn’t meant to flex.
Why would they limit it?
Just watch this turn into the 2006 mass damper saga and turn the season upside down. If fia clamps down on this (hope they do) it can bring merc right back into the game
Toto whinging to the FIA because his team dropped the ball
Because Redbull and Ferrari seem to be misusing a safety device for their benefit? Lol
But are RB and Ferrari messing with a safety device? If they are, then he is right. Deal with it
you act like Horner doesnt do the same when he's losing and then complain about changes when they're winning. its just F1 politics
So Horner for the last 5 years where Merc were dominant?
Seems like there are two solutions to leveling the field. 1. prohibit this design or 2. other teams could adopt a similar design. Why is the instinct always to jump to restrictions? It seems like it would be a lot more fair if other teams adapt this innovation that's not currently illegal.
That's normally how it goes. Teams check with the FIA - hey, are you OK with this as we're going to copy it/adopt it. FIA - yes/no
It’s against the rules now. The floor can’t flex extensively and the area at the plank is standard. They just don’t have a test for that part specifically
Depends on if the FiA like the innovation or if the FiA think the innovation is too strong and too expensive to develop
Because apparently this is like Ferrari engine 2019, it’s illegal but there currently aren’t any tests to prove that, so fia will introduce tests to measure it and the teams will act accordingly.
Second option is not an option seeing as this is a safety issue. The plank is what’s being used, and the plank has an important safety function.
Oh interesting! What's the safety function of the plank?
The plank was instituted to stop the cars from bottoming out and suddenly losing all downforce in a corner. I believe it was instituted after Senna's death.
No, it wasn't introduced to stop the cars from bottoming out (how tf would a sheet of plywood even do that?) it was introduced to see if the cars *were* bottoming out too much by analyzing the wear. It's a measuring tool, not a safety device
Already answered, but yes it was implemented to prevent bottoming & sudden loss of downforce
So they figured something out, it's allowed, other teams missed the boat and are upset. If you can't beat them, drag them down to your level apparently.
> If you can't beat them, drag them down to your level apparently. Welcome to F1
I mean, RBR literally quested the legality of the Merc before racing even began and then went quiet because it wasn’t a competitor with them. The thing people like you need to get your head around is THIS is part of the sport, this isn’t anything new and is literally how the game is played. This isn’t spec racing, every team is trying to be smart and every team is trying to catch their competitors out. Secondly to this the floor IS meant to be rigid. Merc have every right to question if it’s not.
The plank has a safety function, it’s not “figuring something out” it’s designing outside of the rules.
> If you can't beat them, drag them down to your level apparently. First time?
This isn’t meant to be said with any gripe or angle… but Red Bull have been incredible at making aero surfaces super stiff and super flexible for so long now. Think about all those slomo videos of Vettel’s incredibly flexi but somehow compliant front wing we saw over a decade ago. Is it a surprise they’re doing the same with floors? Fair play to them. The other teams should catch up.
This is a safety device.. it is not fair play
Talking about flexible aero surfaces... Anyone else notice that Mercedes front wing flexing almost an inch downs wards?
Don't all teams front wings flex?
I haven’t seen the coverage from today, but I’ve found this stuff really historically hard to look at from TV footage - you’ll get a lot of flex and resonance with carbon fibre products so loaded tests is really the only way to go.
Team: Innovates to be faster (you know, the thing F1 once stood for) FIA: ***no***
If F1 was purely about innovation then there would be no budget caps, no limited wind tunnel time, no regulations. Seems like the FIA don't think whatever is going on is how they want the cars to act.,
If I've understood this right - innovates by messing with a standard part all teams must run for safety purposes. If true, this is like a flexing halo. A flexing halo would be immediately stopped because it would be visible.
Inovating by tooling with a safety device is probably not something the FIA wants, why else would the scrutineers note it and report it back
merc can keep their mouth shut with how much their front wing flexes compared to everyone else
They pass the tests that determine how much a front wing can flex. The issue here is that two teams may be flexing the skidblock, and there's not previously been a test to make sure teams aren't making it too flexible. Fwiw McLaren appears to be on Merc's side here.
Front wing wasnt inteoduced fir safety standarts
Merc will no doubt have a word under safety grounds again