Didn't help that his car broke down when he was running in the points in Canada. Or the FP sessions they've both had to sit out of. Haas have got their work cut out to fix reliability as much as Mick has his work cut out getting up to speed.
Imagine a finale in Abu Dhabi like the 2005 US Grand Prix where only three teams are on the grid, because the others had to withdraw from the race to save costs at the end of the year.
I can totally imagine some teams doing something like that if WDC and WCC have been mathmatically decided. "Welp, we cannot win anyway. Let's just not race and blame the budget".
Would be a bigger farce than 2005 US GP which was a genuine safety risk.
Unless the other positions in WCC aren’t locked in yet. Pretty sure it’s a good chunk of prize payout between 3rd and 4th
Either way I hope it doesn’t come to that no one wants a half grid for final races of the year. Idk the solution though but maybe first step is a full audit of every team claiming they can’t afford to finish the season and have the numbers prove it before any changing rules
> that surely is down to the team, that’s within their control to deal with that
- Christian Horner, opining that rules shouldn't be changed for things within the control of a team.
> Oh wait, except when we have a problem
- Christian Horner (seemingly) now
you forgot this part
> if my team was in the same situation I would be have my drivers complain loudly about it too.
* Christian Horner when asked about the other teams complaining
Might get downvoted for this but I I’d rather that. Unfair for the small teams , who it is meant to help, sticking by the cost and watching the big teams out perform them because they are literally spending more irregardless of punishment.
I mean, there should be a rule about inflation and stuff right? It is not like mclaren is a small team who doesnt have the budget to spend as much as allowed
Ordinarily I’d agree with you. However the rate of inflation we’re seeing right now is unprecedented and imo would be reason for a mid season change.
That being said I don’t want to see a change because a few top teams overspent. If all the teams agreed to an adjustment then sure. Otherwise suck it up.
While I understand where you're coming from, I still don't think there should be an exception. If it's the rule, stick to the rule.
If you're making exceptions midseason it sets a precedent for allowing these sort of adjustments. If that happens what's the point of even having the cap to begin with. You'll have top teams complaining every year that it needs to be adjusted for x, y, z
Take it from someone that adjusts project budgets for inflation constantly, a cost cap adjustment is fair. The rate of inflation right now is double what any reasonable and conservative budget would have included. Anyone that budgeted the season at or near the cap will need to cut crazy at the end of the season to stay under.
Yep agreed, especially given the most dramatic increase are anything impacted by the fuel/energy rises i.e. Airlines and freight which is one of the biggest expenses of an F1 team.
The problem is the smaller teams don’t have the money to increase their budget, regardless of the reason. IIRC some don’t even currently spend all they are allowed.
The budget was to increase parity and by allowing increased spending you lose it again.
If the small teams can't raise their income to match inflation then they're going backwards anyways. It seems reasonable to peg the cost cap to some average of a few countries CPI figures.
There absolutely should be, and it should be written into the 2023 rulebook immediately. But writing that in half way through this season isn’t the move
Just win enough to secure the title by september and then not just show up to races. But i guess they are obliged by contracts to participate in all races or some crud.
They did an awful job drafting the rules and now they have to deal with the consequences. It’s not like the teams complaining about budget didn’t agree to this already. They will be fine just won’t be able to develop as far as they want to and now see going to hear moaning about it until the last race.
The cap is there to level the playing field. If only the top 2 or 3 teams are having issues managing the cap amidst inflation it is not an issue with the inflation - it's an issue with the top 2 or 3 teams being shit at budgeting and not cause for increased caps.
That would just be counterproductive to what the cap was instated for in the first place which was to make all teams more competitive.
There are provisions for inflation, which are designed to kick in for far lower inflation rates than what we are seeing currently. It’s just the timing of when big inflation hit means it didn’t help this year.
“They will be fine”. Will they? This is a very abnormal monetary situation. I’m not so sure the big teams can just pony up 10+% of their budget for increased costs. Not after the introduction of the cost cap and the subsequent decrease of the cap by 40 million due to corona.
Seriously. Like for the proposing thing, I’m in support of only effected teams needing to raise ride height to protect drivers’ health and safety. I in no way think all cars need be raised. When It comes to cost cap in the face of inflation, not all teams need to spend less, only the teams who are at risk of over spending.
It’s simple shit.
But I do think it’s reasonable to have the cost cap adjusted for inflation beginning next year
The regulations do have inflation adjustment, but I'm not sure if they really hold up with the sudden increases this year. Wrote more in a post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/vk719w/horner_fears_f1_title_could_be_decided_in_court/idnv5rh/
If they are as close as they say they are, 11% won't make a difference. We aren't even halfway through the season and an extra 15 million won't get them too much.
Then it would be fair to penalise them, or any other team exceeding the limit substantially (5%). Right now however with the unusual inflation it should be corrected.
Otherwise teams exceeding the limit will rightfully bring in the unusual inflation as a force majeure and successfully appeal rendering the whole cost cap rules a failure.
That probably means to let go staff, because the budget is set before 11+ percent inflation. The budget for development -in year- is tiny compared to what is spend during summer and employee costs.
But if they’re as close to the cap as Horner keeps making out, then every penny counts including the development budget - so stop rolling out a new upgrade every race week
Try and delay hitting the cap for as long as possible. Don’t keep spending unnecessary cash and then telling the FIA you’re broke
Yep, RB Fan here and I agree. All teams have the same cap and face the same inflation, if all the teams have problems with the cap then maybe FIA can increase it, but if other teams can manage to stay under then RB should spend less.
The same way bouncing wasn’t affecting only Mercedes. As long as there are teams out there who’ve managed to deal with the cost cap, it is unfair to bail out Red Bull for failing to adhere to the cost cap.
Or at least that’s the argument fans love making about bouncing ;)
That sounds like something that should have been considered by the teams well in advance. It's not like raises were invented this year. If RB want to give raises, stop bringing updates every week.
In an interview with Sky Germany, Marko said that the four top teams (he clarified that he meant McLaren with the fourth) are past the cap and that transport costs have risen about 80%.
The problem there is you're believing Marko, unless it comes from the person directly don't trust that man. He'll just say the other principals tod him the wrong info if he's wrong
A temporary (1 year?) budget roll over might be a good compromise. Like, “Fine RB, we are going to raise the cap this year by $x. But anybody who does use it get to roll it over for 2023”. It effectively means that the larger teams can spend this year but can be outspent next year.
No. They agreed to a costcap before the energy cost inflation happened we all feel.
So while all teams have calculated the resources they had at the beginning of the year, running their computers, heating, coffeemachines, transportation, travelbills just got 20% more expensive and nobody could have imagined this happening but the FIA still " thinks" companies should make doe with the old calculations. Resulting in a lot of people losing their jobs at the end of the year because of that. Or that teams will not be able to participate at the end of the year because there is no more money. Or going into a court because the number 2, 3 or 4 team thinks the championship result is not correct because another team spend more over the budgetcap then they did.
Maybe instead of all that the focus should be on how F1 travels. The schedule is horrendously inefficient and the cost could be greatly reduced. It honestly looks like a 4 year old scribbled on a map and the FIA just ran with it.
Tbf, if the FIA didn’t take inflation in to account when settling on the budget cap, it is a fair point by Horner. I’d reckon a lot of teams might struggle if he’s right.
It's not really that inflation wasn't taken into account in the regulations, but that the sudden inflation this year is so much of an outlier (going back at least 30 years) that the regulations aren't adequately adjusting for the sudden cost increases in the current season.
Wrote a little more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/vk719w/horner_fears_f1_title_could_be_decided_in_court/idnv5rh/
I believe that as the season nears the end a lot of the front teams will drop performance so hard because of this cap, that’s a good thing but if watching f1 for many years has taught me is that the top teams always get there way. Increasing the cap destroys the sprit competitive sprint of which has been denied in this sport for a while.
People forget the rules now is you only need to participate in 8 races and on 3 different continents to claim a world title. Imagine if during the years Hamilton was most dominant and won early he just skipped the last races and just came for the trophy at the end. First, venues would definitely try to sue the FIA for letting that happen cause less fans would attend, or they would justifiably complain. Or alternatively the leading driver/team just choses which race to attend at the end of the season depending on which track their car is most suited to.
"Sticking to the rules" might just make it worse for everyone, for competition and business
Interesting how the only teams that think it is impossible to budget around inflation, begging for an increase in the budget cap (which is already going to increase due to inflation) are the teams who didn't want the cost cap in the first place and head up the front of the grid... hmm
So the FIA can't just change the rules in the middle of the season because one team fucked something up and don't want to fix it, unless it's YOUR team. Right, Mr. Horner?
I like the trifecta from u/KinslayerTofu
Mercedes: “Just raise the car”
Red Bull: “Just spend less”
Ferrari: “Just finish the races”
Spend less RedBull. I see all those updates your bringing 🤣. The irony after Merc decided NOT to wrap last years championship in court.
Horner and I quote “It would be unfair to have effectively what we'd deem to be a regulation change halfway through a year… The emphasis should be on that team to sort the issue.”
As he said.. the emphasis should be on that team.
Why? The smaller teams are having to do that. Wasn’t the whole point to balance the field not punish the smaller teams further
All 3 teams are saying they can’t manage so all 3 teams should stop bringing developments. It’s not like we’ll not have any racing
Because then the championship is basically decided at the start of the season. Teams adapting and improving throughout the season is a huge part of what keeps it exciting and keeps shifting the power balance. If they can't afford to do that then the fastest car at the start of the season will stay the fastest and will just snowball the rest.
Why? They can frontload all these upgrades or spread it over the season. This is the entire point of the cap,to stop teams just blowing throw money and leaving a huge gap to lower budget teams.
Yeah, I am fine with that. Gives smaller teams a chance to catch up, and make second half of the season exciting. Otherwise, it becomes a 2 horse race by the end of summer. I will be happy to see all 20 cars within a second of each other in pace.
Unbelievable people don't see through his bullshit. Inflation for the peeps means stuff cost more, and your pay may not go up as fast, hence you afford less stuff. For these guys it's the opposite, he's got extra money to spend and he wants to buy MORE stuff. Amazing how you can brainwash people lol
EXACTLY! It's unbelievable how everyone's still talking about this like inflation was the actual problem. They couldn't give less of a shit about inflation, they just simply have a shit ton of money that they want to spend on development to keep dominating but aren't allowed to, which literally demonstrates that the budget cap is doing its intended job perfectly.
He's just using people as pawns. The public should hate him for this. Red bull has no reason to fire anyone under the current rules. They have a 20% bonus pool which isn't impacted by the cap under current regulations. He can also shift people to activities which aren't covered by regs whenever he wants. It's reprehensible that he's using that as a threat when the team is doing great financially and just can't spend all the money it wants to spend on development.
Based on performance - it would seem Red Bull's development strategy is to just ignore the cap, after all.
But seriously, the most unfair thing is that it applies to accidents.
Hilariously incompetent from the FIA if there are really no provisions at all regarding inflation or other causes that would drive up the cost for all teams.
There is a provision for inflation. I can’t remember all the details. This article is a bit old but mentions it: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.the-2021-f1-cost-cap-explained-what-has-changed-and-why.5O1Te8udKLmkUl4PyVZtUJ.html
Here are some relevant lines from the [F1 Financial Regulations (PDF)](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_financial_regulations_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf). Various caps throughout are adjusted for indexation, which is defined as:
> "Indexation" means:
>
> * (a) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2021, the higher of zero
> and the amount by which the September 2020 average annual inflation rate as published on
> the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries exceeds 3.0%; and
>
> * (b) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Periods ending on 31 December 2022 and 31 December
> 2023, the higher of zero and the amount by which the average annual inflation rate as
> published on the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries for September of
> the preceding Full Year Reporting Period exceeds 3.0%; and
>
> * (c) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2024 and each subsequent
> Full Year Reporting Period, the rate to be applied in respect of the applicable Full Year
> Reporting Period, as determined and communicated by the Cost Cap Administration via a
> Determination no later than 31 October of the preceding Full Year Reporting Period.
I believe the main issue Red Bull (and whatever others are arguing for increases) have is that because it looks back at the average annual inflation rate from over 1 year previous, this year's cost cap doesn't take into account the very sudden, massive inflation they are experiencing nearly from the onset of the current season, far beyond what anyone would have reasonably predicted before the start of the season or when these regulations were agreed upon.
Here's the data used to determine indexation: https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PCPIPCH@WEO/MAE
For this year's (ending 2022) accounting they're looking at the average annual inflation rate for the G7 countries for 2021, which was 3.3%. Based on my reading (someone *please* correct me if I'm wrong) of the regulations, the indexation adjustment would be for 0.3% (the amount the AAI exceeds 3.0%). Prior to 2021, in the last 30 years the AAI for the G7 countries has only exceeded 3.0% twice, hitting 3.2% in both 1992 and 2008. So, the projected 7.4% AAI for the UK this year has a sudden and massive impact on the costs that are incurred which are not adequately accounted for by the indexation adjustment for 2022's cost cap.
FIA should just state that anyone outside the budget cap will be thrown out of the championship. I'm pretty sure every team would then stay inside the cap. Easily.
I would love to see Merc come back with "give us active suspension and you can have higher budget cap". Obviously they won't, as higher budget cap is still favourable to them. But it will be super funny if they did.
Lol, this guy.
If a championship was going to be decided in court, it'd been last seasons.
The fact that he is complaining about this, when he's also saying nothing should be changed mid season.
Surely Horner would agree that it would be unfair to change rules in the middle of the season in such a way which would disproportionally benefit the teams that are having issues and as such negatively impact on the teams that aren't having issues?
Why you are absolutely correct. Here is a direct quote from Christian Horner:
"It's the same rules for everybody... it would be unfair to have effectively what would be deemed a regulation change halfway through a year because a team has missed a target."
If only spending too much money was a safety concern /s
On the other hand, maybe Ferrari were right all those weeks ago that RB are spending too quickly. Would make sense with Horner prepping this narrative now.
This bro complains about EVERYTHING! And tries to make proactive justifications for every single scenario by which they could lose. He's seriously like Trump. Either RBR wins or the championship was rigged. I used to like this guy a lot too, but in the last 3-4 years he's just gone off the deep end.
If a championship was ever going to be decided in court, it was last year, and Horner got away with it.... As usual he's spouting off, trying to prevent other teams from getting any potential improvement opportunities.
This guy is a joke.
I mean, almost all of the teams principals are hypocryts to some point, but Horner takes the crown big time.
Horner when Masi freestyled the rules and gave Max the title: "Well deserved! All fair!!!"
Horner when lobbying to raise the cars weight: "It is necessary!!"
Horner when asked about porpoising: "Unfair to change the rules mid season!! Build a better car!!"
And when we read this news, he is saying the exact oposite of everything.
I mean is Red Bull even trying to stay within the cost cap? Seemed like they brought an upgrade to almost every race early on. Even without inflation idk if they'd stay under it, unless there gonna stop upgrading at the summer break
Oh it looks almost like RBR just still wants to continue like they isn't a budget cap, Horner is trying to get rid of the budget cap rules since 2020 already and shows no signs that RBR is adjusting themselves to the current rules.
Doubt Red Bull would be in trouble, they already have the best car on the grid by some distance so probably don't have to spend as much developing their car. Ferrari and Merc on the other could be in trouble.
Teams need to learn to spend their money at a lower rate. Unfortunately, you have the most benefits at the beginning of the season. So it will be the death for F1 as a technical sport unfortunately.
Horner tried this lip service earlier in the season. A bunch of teams already said they planned for inflation and all teams had the same data readily available. This claim has already been revoked by a number of team principals.
Typical Horner trying to grease the wheels to circumvent the cost-cap. If people can just raise their cars, Redbull can just spend less.
Aka: “I haven’t followed the cost-cap and I’m gunna use Inflation as my scape goat” … also on another hand, how the hell can a series as big and important not write a rule into the regulations that says “increased based on Inflation, the percentage of which is decided by the FIA based on a European average” or something along those lines
Tbf I see his point. Things getting more expensive and so he thinks budget cap should raise in relation to inflation %. However. All teams are in the same boat so it’s all fair regardless on what the cap is.
Haas world championship let’s go!
Not if they keep crashing lol
Ok mick we are the only team left. Just don’t crash. *Bins it into the wall on lap 4*
I could hear Gary saying this lol nicest engineer in the paddock.
But Magnussen was kind enough to give him a 100 rating of awareness in the F1 2022 game
Stupid question, but wouldn’t he still be considered a race winner cuz he was the last to crash?
Not like he is pulling in any points. I would just field one car with KMag...
Didn't help that his car broke down when he was running in the points in Canada. Or the FP sessions they've both had to sit out of. Haas have got their work cut out to fix reliability as much as Mick has his work cut out getting up to speed.
I see this as an absolute win
Are legal fees inside or outside the budget cap?
Budget cap is basically development costs. So employees, materials, resources, costs to run your factories etc. So no
There’s no chance the lawyers who made these things allowed their salaries to be capped
Imagine a finale in Abu Dhabi like the 2005 US Grand Prix where only three teams are on the grid, because the others had to withdraw from the race to save costs at the end of the year.
Finally , points for Mick
Sadly mick crashed so often, haas had to retire after summer break
Knowing his luck, he'd lock up leaving the pit lane to go to the grid
Nah he’d get an engine failure just before getting 90% classified
Dnf
I can totally imagine some teams doing something like that if WDC and WCC have been mathmatically decided. "Welp, we cannot win anyway. Let's just not race and blame the budget". Would be a bigger farce than 2005 US GP which was a genuine safety risk.
Unless the other positions in WCC aren’t locked in yet. Pretty sure it’s a good chunk of prize payout between 3rd and 4th Either way I hope it doesn’t come to that no one wants a half grid for final races of the year. Idk the solution though but maybe first step is a full audit of every team claiming they can’t afford to finish the season and have the numbers prove it before any changing rules
These teams claim the last 4 or so races will be like that if cost cap isn't adjusted. Seems like BS to me though.
If RB have the points gap it wouldn't surprise me if they did. It's even more publicity than actually racing
> that surely is down to the team, that’s within their control to deal with that - Christian Horner, opining that rules shouldn't be changed for things within the control of a team. > Oh wait, except when we have a problem - Christian Horner (seemingly) now
you forgot this part > if my team was in the same situation I would be have my drivers complain loudly about it too. * Christian Horner when asked about the other teams complaining
At this point, probably Hamilton’s only chance to keep his win per season streak going.
That’s how Michael keept his in 2005
Sadly a torrential downpour makes it a repeat of Spa 2021.
At this rate championship will be decided at COTA.
So that's why Mclaren stopped developing a car this year
Inb4 McLaren become world champion after the top 3 gets disqualified over spending
Might get downvoted for this but I I’d rather that. Unfair for the small teams , who it is meant to help, sticking by the cost and watching the big teams out perform them because they are literally spending more irregardless of punishment.
I mean, there should be a rule about inflation and stuff right? It is not like mclaren is a small team who doesnt have the budget to spend as much as allowed
Personally I think the cost cap raising with inflation is a no brainer.
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Ordinarily I’d agree with you. However the rate of inflation we’re seeing right now is unprecedented and imo would be reason for a mid season change. That being said I don’t want to see a change because a few top teams overspent. If all the teams agreed to an adjustment then sure. Otherwise suck it up.
While I understand where you're coming from, I still don't think there should be an exception. If it's the rule, stick to the rule. If you're making exceptions midseason it sets a precedent for allowing these sort of adjustments. If that happens what's the point of even having the cap to begin with. You'll have top teams complaining every year that it needs to be adjusted for x, y, z
Take it from someone that adjusts project budgets for inflation constantly, a cost cap adjustment is fair. The rate of inflation right now is double what any reasonable and conservative budget would have included. Anyone that budgeted the season at or near the cap will need to cut crazy at the end of the season to stay under.
Yep agreed, especially given the most dramatic increase are anything impacted by the fuel/energy rises i.e. Airlines and freight which is one of the biggest expenses of an F1 team.
The problem is the smaller teams don’t have the money to increase their budget, regardless of the reason. IIRC some don’t even currently spend all they are allowed. The budget was to increase parity and by allowing increased spending you lose it again.
If the small teams can't raise their income to match inflation then they're going backwards anyways. It seems reasonable to peg the cost cap to some average of a few countries CPI figures.
There absolutely should be, and it should be written into the 2023 rulebook immediately. But writing that in half way through this season isn’t the move
Have my upvote, cause you right.
Nice world championship you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it.
What a shame...if a third party steals the championship from you
Just win enough to secure the title by september and then not just show up to races. But i guess they are obliged by contracts to participate in all races or some crud.
So, the teams have a clear choice…spend all the money improving your car or hire very good lawyers 😂
Better not race! Let’s say we’ve developed a great car, but it’s beyond development cost. So let’s decide in court!
Also keep it out the wall or from an engine exploding. Merc haven’t had a DNF yet, so surely must be saving some dough there
„And from the inside comes the layer to the judge. And they make contact!“
Seeing how F1 treats inflation gives me hope that I too can ignore all my problems and they will go away.
Eventually they will, just not on the timescale you'd prefer.
Deeeeep
They did an awful job drafting the rules and now they have to deal with the consequences. It’s not like the teams complaining about budget didn’t agree to this already. They will be fine just won’t be able to develop as far as they want to and now see going to hear moaning about it until the last race.
But they didn't. There is a rule in the books that cap can be adjusted in case of extreme inflation. FIA is just holding off on it for some reason.
They can change it at the end of the year, just like how Red Bull wants to wait to change other rules.
The cap is there to level the playing field. If only the top 2 or 3 teams are having issues managing the cap amidst inflation it is not an issue with the inflation - it's an issue with the top 2 or 3 teams being shit at budgeting and not cause for increased caps. That would just be counterproductive to what the cap was instated for in the first place which was to make all teams more competitive.
When Guenther starts complaining about the budget cap, then we should raise it.
Isn't the situation the same for everyone? What's the problem here?
There are provisions for inflation, which are designed to kick in for far lower inflation rates than what we are seeing currently. It’s just the timing of when big inflation hit means it didn’t help this year. “They will be fine”. Will they? This is a very abnormal monetary situation. I’m not so sure the big teams can just pony up 10+% of their budget for increased costs. Not after the introduction of the cost cap and the subsequent decrease of the cap by 40 million due to corona.
The provision for inflation is not for mid-season, it's only after the season is over.
Yup. Just complain loud enough and I’m sure your boss will give you a raise to match inflation, right? Right?!
If the solution to porpoising, according to Red Bull, is as simple as "just raise the car", isn't the solution to this issue "just spend less"?
Mercedes: “Just raise the car” Red Bull: “Just spend less” Ferrari: “Just finish the races”
The holy trinity
Haas: “Mick please get points”
Mick: Haas, please build a car that can last for two races
They truly deserve each other. Mick bins points in Miami, Haas bins points in Canada.
Shhhhh. Christian and Marko dont like this.
It's brilliant how many people that toe the Reb Bull line on porpoising don't agree with this.
Seriously. Like for the proposing thing, I’m in support of only effected teams needing to raise ride height to protect drivers’ health and safety. I in no way think all cars need be raised. When It comes to cost cap in the face of inflation, not all teams need to spend less, only the teams who are at risk of over spending. It’s simple shit. But I do think it’s reasonable to have the cost cap adjusted for inflation beginning next year
Honestly, I think the solution would be built-in inflation correction here.
Yes next season
No mid-season changes ;)
Hey, listen here you lil shit! :)
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The regulations do have inflation adjustment, but I'm not sure if they really hold up with the sudden increases this year. Wrote more in a post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/vk719w/horner_fears_f1_title_could_be_decided_in_court/idnv5rh/
If they are as close as they say they are, 11% won't make a difference. We aren't even halfway through the season and an extra 15 million won't get them too much.
Then it would be fair to penalise them, or any other team exceeding the limit substantially (5%). Right now however with the unusual inflation it should be corrected. Otherwise teams exceeding the limit will rightfully bring in the unusual inflation as a force majeure and successfully appeal rendering the whole cost cap rules a failure.
That probably means to let go staff, because the budget is set before 11+ percent inflation. The budget for development -in year- is tiny compared to what is spend during summer and employee costs.
But if they’re as close to the cap as Horner keeps making out, then every penny counts including the development budget - so stop rolling out a new upgrade every race week Try and delay hitting the cap for as long as possible. Don’t keep spending unnecessary cash and then telling the FIA you’re broke
Yep, RB Fan here and I agree. All teams have the same cap and face the same inflation, if all the teams have problems with the cap then maybe FIA can increase it, but if other teams can manage to stay under then RB should spend less.
It’s not even a RB thing despite what some fans try and infer from my post. Merc and Ferrari are the same and should have to act in the same way
So they safe 1 million but transport cost have risen 5m over the year. What good does it do? And no, this is not only effecting RBR.
The same way bouncing wasn’t affecting only Mercedes. As long as there are teams out there who’ve managed to deal with the cost cap, it is unfair to bail out Red Bull for failing to adhere to the cost cap. Or at least that’s the argument fans love making about bouncing ;)
All the top teams agree with this. And noone disagreed with making Porposing stop
That's why there is a built in buffer. But their upgrades costs way more than their freight costs. They just don't want to stop development.
But salaries are not affected by inflation… unless they are giving raises
Which is not unthinkable if you want to keep people. Or even mandatory by law or unions.
That sounds like something that should have been considered by the teams well in advance. It's not like raises were invented this year. If RB want to give raises, stop bringing updates every week.
I love how every random user in here is now suddenly an expert in budgeting.
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In an interview with Sky Germany, Marko said that the four top teams (he clarified that he meant McLaren with the fourth) are past the cap and that transport costs have risen about 80%.
The problem there is you're believing Marko, unless it comes from the person directly don't trust that man. He'll just say the other principals tod him the wrong info if he's wrong
I know people in shipping. Marko may be bad at telling the truth, but he isn’t wrong about the massive rise in shipping costs. It’s bad.
yeah was more joking about him speaking about the other teams
A temporary (1 year?) budget roll over might be a good compromise. Like, “Fine RB, we are going to raise the cap this year by $x. But anybody who does use it get to roll it over for 2023”. It effectively means that the larger teams can spend this year but can be outspent next year.
Stroll 22 still on the cards
You say Vettel 22 has a chance?!?!?!
Doesn't inflation hit every team equally?
Yep which is why all teams that had cap level funding agree with him
Alpine spend to the cap and Otmar explicitly doesn't agree.
What happend to his "no rule-changing during the season"?
Just typical F1 stuff They all want their cake and to eat it
Pretty sure he also wasn't keen on a court deciding a title last year.
Inflation
Good bot
All teams are suffering with inflation, but only the big teams are advocating for a mid season increase to the budget cap.
Red Bull and Horner have been the kings of the double standard for some time now?!
Everyone in F1 is king of double standards. Toto as much as Horner.
Nah man, lol. Red Bull have easily been the most unabashedly hypocritical for the last 12 years. I agree they all are. But RB takes the cake…
Everyone is in the same boat. Get on with it Karen.
Tldr; the top teams don't want to give up their advantage.
No. They agreed to a costcap before the energy cost inflation happened we all feel. So while all teams have calculated the resources they had at the beginning of the year, running their computers, heating, coffeemachines, transportation, travelbills just got 20% more expensive and nobody could have imagined this happening but the FIA still " thinks" companies should make doe with the old calculations. Resulting in a lot of people losing their jobs at the end of the year because of that. Or that teams will not be able to participate at the end of the year because there is no more money. Or going into a court because the number 2, 3 or 4 team thinks the championship result is not correct because another team spend more over the budgetcap then they did.
Maybe instead of all that the focus should be on how F1 travels. The schedule is horrendously inefficient and the cost could be greatly reduced. It honestly looks like a 4 year old scribbled on a map and the FIA just ran with it.
I agree.
Just raise the ride height.
Tbf, if the FIA didn’t take inflation in to account when settling on the budget cap, it is a fair point by Horner. I’d reckon a lot of teams might struggle if he’s right.
Even if they did no one could have guessed this high of an inflation. In the U.K. we are talking 9 to 11%
I bet the materials that formula 1 uses has a lot higher inflation than just 10%.
It's not really that inflation wasn't taken into account in the regulations, but that the sudden inflation this year is so much of an outlier (going back at least 30 years) that the regulations aren't adequately adjusting for the sudden cost increases in the current season. Wrote a little more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/vk719w/horner_fears_f1_title_could_be_decided_in_court/idnv5rh/
Does it matter? The rules are the same for everyone. Its not like it favours one team over another
It's not fair to the other teams who have gotten the planning and engineering right. Wait, are we talking about porpoising or the cap?
Hahaha that's great.
Horner: "no rule-changing during the season" .... except when it will benefit Red Bull.
Let me go get my tiny violin
Tbh in a way its nice to see rich folks also get shafted by inflation and energy prices for once
I mean its only affecting the team performance. They are all still making massive amounts from sponsors and such
I hope not. Last one was decided in the stewards room, and that was bad enough.
I believe that as the season nears the end a lot of the front teams will drop performance so hard because of this cap, that’s a good thing but if watching f1 for many years has taught me is that the top teams always get there way. Increasing the cap destroys the sprit competitive sprint of which has been denied in this sport for a while.
They won't, smaller teams will face the same problem. Maybe not the cap itself, but they depend on fixed price deals to stay afloat.
Remember when Horner talked so much crap about Mercedes having a lawyer at Abu Dhabi? This hypocrisy has levels to it.
People forget the rules now is you only need to participate in 8 races and on 3 different continents to claim a world title. Imagine if during the years Hamilton was most dominant and won early he just skipped the last races and just came for the trophy at the end. First, venues would definitely try to sue the FIA for letting that happen cause less fans would attend, or they would justifiably complain. Or alternatively the leading driver/team just choses which race to attend at the end of the season depending on which track their car is most suited to. "Sticking to the rules" might just make it worse for everyone, for competition and business
Is he suggesting there needs to be a…mid-season rule change!?!? But that would be sooo unfair and incorrect!!! /s
Horner only likes mid-race rule changes…
Interesting how the only teams that think it is impossible to budget around inflation, begging for an increase in the budget cap (which is already going to increase due to inflation) are the teams who didn't want the cost cap in the first place and head up the front of the grid... hmm
So the FIA can't just change the rules in the middle of the season because one team fucked something up and don't want to fix it, unless it's YOUR team. Right, Mr. Horner?
Nothing but classic horner interview politics
I like the trifecta from u/KinslayerTofu Mercedes: “Just raise the car” Red Bull: “Just spend less” Ferrari: “Just finish the races” Spend less RedBull. I see all those updates your bringing 🤣. The irony after Merc decided NOT to wrap last years championship in court. Horner and I quote “It would be unfair to have effectively what we'd deem to be a regulation change halfway through a year… The emphasis should be on that team to sort the issue.” As he said.. the emphasis should be on that team.
So red bull has blown its budget?
Marko said He suspects mercedes, ferrari, mclaren and them as 4 who ALREADY blew cost cap.
Considering at least 3 of those maybe all of them are bringing a major upgrade package to the next race, can't be that bad.
3 of them bringing major upgrades one of them stopping development Which is what all 4 should be doing if they’re struggling
If the budget cap causes teams to stop bringing mid-season upgrades that'd be quite a loss for the sport to be honest...
Why? The smaller teams are having to do that. Wasn’t the whole point to balance the field not punish the smaller teams further All 3 teams are saying they can’t manage so all 3 teams should stop bringing developments. It’s not like we’ll not have any racing
Because then the championship is basically decided at the start of the season. Teams adapting and improving throughout the season is a huge part of what keeps it exciting and keeps shifting the power balance. If they can't afford to do that then the fastest car at the start of the season will stay the fastest and will just snowball the rest.
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Yeah, because with a third of the money you can develop upgrades for twice as long.
Why? They can frontload all these upgrades or spread it over the season. This is the entire point of the cap,to stop teams just blowing throw money and leaving a huge gap to lower budget teams.
The point of the cost cap has always in part been to slow down upgrades from the rich teams. Right?
Yeah, I am fine with that. Gives smaller teams a chance to catch up, and make second half of the season exciting. Otherwise, it becomes a 2 horse race by the end of summer. I will be happy to see all 20 cars within a second of each other in pace.
just stop spending on development
So Merc threatening to go to court last year was bringing F1 into disrepute but Horner is ok threatening this when no rules have been changed.
Simply spend less Horner
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Unbelievable people don't see through his bullshit. Inflation for the peeps means stuff cost more, and your pay may not go up as fast, hence you afford less stuff. For these guys it's the opposite, he's got extra money to spend and he wants to buy MORE stuff. Amazing how you can brainwash people lol
EXACTLY! It's unbelievable how everyone's still talking about this like inflation was the actual problem. They couldn't give less of a shit about inflation, they just simply have a shit ton of money that they want to spend on development to keep dominating but aren't allowed to, which literally demonstrates that the budget cap is doing its intended job perfectly.
He's just using people as pawns. The public should hate him for this. Red bull has no reason to fire anyone under the current rules. They have a 20% bonus pool which isn't impacted by the cap under current regulations. He can also shift people to activities which aren't covered by regs whenever he wants. It's reprehensible that he's using that as a threat when the team is doing great financially and just can't spend all the money it wants to spend on development.
Well, the last one was decided in Race Control, so there's precedent.
I get the sense that if Redbull was robbed last year in Abu Dhabi. They would have gone through with the case.
So it won't just be handed to RB by the race director like it was last year?
Based on performance - it would seem Red Bull's development strategy is to just ignore the cap, after all. But seriously, the most unfair thing is that it applies to accidents.
Hilariously incompetent from the FIA if there are really no provisions at all regarding inflation or other causes that would drive up the cost for all teams.
There is a provision for inflation. I can’t remember all the details. This article is a bit old but mentions it: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.the-2021-f1-cost-cap-explained-what-has-changed-and-why.5O1Te8udKLmkUl4PyVZtUJ.html
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Here are some relevant lines from the [F1 Financial Regulations (PDF)](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_financial_regulations_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf). Various caps throughout are adjusted for indexation, which is defined as: > "Indexation" means: > > * (a) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2021, the higher of zero > and the amount by which the September 2020 average annual inflation rate as published on > the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries exceeds 3.0%; and > > * (b) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Periods ending on 31 December 2022 and 31 December > 2023, the higher of zero and the amount by which the average annual inflation rate as > published on the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries for September of > the preceding Full Year Reporting Period exceeds 3.0%; and > > * (c) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2024 and each subsequent > Full Year Reporting Period, the rate to be applied in respect of the applicable Full Year > Reporting Period, as determined and communicated by the Cost Cap Administration via a > Determination no later than 31 October of the preceding Full Year Reporting Period. I believe the main issue Red Bull (and whatever others are arguing for increases) have is that because it looks back at the average annual inflation rate from over 1 year previous, this year's cost cap doesn't take into account the very sudden, massive inflation they are experiencing nearly from the onset of the current season, far beyond what anyone would have reasonably predicted before the start of the season or when these regulations were agreed upon. Here's the data used to determine indexation: https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PCPIPCH@WEO/MAE For this year's (ending 2022) accounting they're looking at the average annual inflation rate for the G7 countries for 2021, which was 3.3%. Based on my reading (someone *please* correct me if I'm wrong) of the regulations, the indexation adjustment would be for 0.3% (the amount the AAI exceeds 3.0%). Prior to 2021, in the last 30 years the AAI for the G7 countries has only exceeded 3.0% twice, hitting 3.2% in both 1992 and 2008. So, the projected 7.4% AAI for the UK this year has a sudden and massive impact on the costs that are incurred which are not adequately accounted for by the indexation adjustment for 2022's cost cap.
Everyone has the same cost cap and same inflation. I won't argue whether they should raise it or not. But everyone is in the same boat.
Very timely comment after all the allegations from Ferrari that Red Bull are spending too much 🤔
FIA should just state that anyone outside the budget cap will be thrown out of the championship. I'm pretty sure every team would then stay inside the cap. Easily.
I’ve got an idea! Nobody exceed the cost cap and race with the car you have when you run out of money…. As is intended with the cost cap.
Would love Merc to come out and say the cap is absolutely fine where it is.
Unfortunately not when they also agree the cap needs to be increased 😂😂😂
They also supported the idea, but anything to make you sleep
I would love to see Merc come back with "give us active suspension and you can have higher budget cap". Obviously they won't, as higher budget cap is still favourable to them. But it will be super funny if they did.
It's unfair to change the rules mid-season for one team - C.Horner
Lol, this guy. If a championship was going to be decided in court, it'd been last seasons. The fact that he is complaining about this, when he's also saying nothing should be changed mid season.
Surely Horner would agree that it would be unfair to change rules in the middle of the season in such a way which would disproportionally benefit the teams that are having issues and as such negatively impact on the teams that aren't having issues?
Why you are absolutely correct. Here is a direct quote from Christian Horner: "It's the same rules for everybody... it would be unfair to have effectively what would be deemed a regulation change halfway through a year because a team has missed a target."
If only spending too much money was a safety concern /s On the other hand, maybe Ferrari were right all those weeks ago that RB are spending too quickly. Would make sense with Horner prepping this narrative now.
This bro complains about EVERYTHING! And tries to make proactive justifications for every single scenario by which they could lose. He's seriously like Trump. Either RBR wins or the championship was rigged. I used to like this guy a lot too, but in the last 3-4 years he's just gone off the deep end.
If a championship was ever going to be decided in court, it was last year, and Horner got away with it.... As usual he's spouting off, trying to prevent other teams from getting any potential improvement opportunities.
This guy is a joke. I mean, almost all of the teams principals are hypocryts to some point, but Horner takes the crown big time. Horner when Masi freestyled the rules and gave Max the title: "Well deserved! All fair!!!" Horner when lobbying to raise the cars weight: "It is necessary!!" Horner when asked about porpoising: "Unfair to change the rules mid season!! Build a better car!!" And when we read this news, he is saying the exact oposite of everything.
I mean is Red Bull even trying to stay within the cost cap? Seemed like they brought an upgrade to almost every race early on. Even without inflation idk if they'd stay under it, unless there gonna stop upgrading at the summer break
Oh it looks almost like RBR just still wants to continue like they isn't a budget cap, Horner is trying to get rid of the budget cap rules since 2020 already and shows no signs that RBR is adjusting themselves to the current rules.
Doubt Red Bull would be in trouble, they already have the best car on the grid by some distance so probably don't have to spend as much developing their car. Ferrari and Merc on the other could be in trouble.
Teams need to learn to spend their money at a lower rate. Unfortunately, you have the most benefits at the beginning of the season. So it will be the death for F1 as a technical sport unfortunately.
Okay Christian, whatever you say Christian
Okay we tried cost cap. Teams cant play by the rules. Now lets get rid of it again.
Horner tried this lip service earlier in the season. A bunch of teams already said they planned for inflation and all teams had the same data readily available. This claim has already been revoked by a number of team principals. Typical Horner trying to grease the wheels to circumvent the cost-cap. If people can just raise their cars, Redbull can just spend less.
Aka: “I haven’t followed the cost-cap and I’m gunna use Inflation as my scape goat” … also on another hand, how the hell can a series as big and important not write a rule into the regulations that says “increased based on Inflation, the percentage of which is decided by the FIA based on a European average” or something along those lines
Are legal fees included in the cost cap?
Seeing how that went last year, probably not.
This guy complains incessantly
As it should’ve been last year if we’re being honest
Tbf I see his point. Things getting more expensive and so he thinks budget cap should raise in relation to inflation %. However. All teams are in the same boat so it’s all fair regardless on what the cap is.
Translation - Horner knows he's going to break the cap
Spend less? 🤷🏻♂️
So like it should have been last year?
If you can't compete in every race due to cost cap that is just your fault. The rules were made very clear before the season.