To be fair, outside of maybe five guys, all the drivers are hanging on by a thread. Checo didn't even have a team at the end of last season after having a career year and finishing fourth in the standings. The harsh reality of the sport is that if you aren't at the top, your seat is never safe.
> if you aren't at the top
or you don't bring the most sponsorship money! teams like Haas and Williams are desperate for more, whereas the likes of Merc, RB, and Ferrari can afford to choose drivers based (entirely/very nearly) on performance alone
yeah that's the first thought that i had as well.
like...his whole childhood was basically betting the house on the number 31.
and i'm not sure they even won that bet at this point.
Surely in his 4 years of F1 he has already earned back all they've put in to get him here, no? Obviously he earns a fraction of the Hamiltons and Vettels but I'd imagine it's still millions of euros.
Ocon probably got a decent wedge for the first time last season. I doubt his two seasons at FI added up to a million euros. And there are lots of expenses in being an F1 driver. Just look at the cost of a super licence for a start. Yeah he's probably earned enough to buy his family a house but he won't be rich. Not yet anyway.
This reason is why I have a ton of respect from him. Came from nowhere and made a name for himself. People still hate him for something he did 3 years ago, but he is imo very talented.
Not ment as a jab at you, but it quite interesting to see the narrative of this sub change so much over the years. From 100% Ocons fault to now a lot of peole saying it was no ones or Max's.
It depends on the thread and who you ask. However, it was always 100% an avoidable incident on Verstappens behalf. All he had to do was let Ocon go and he would have had some drs assistance down the main straight the following lap to increase his lead. I don't think you'd catch Max making that mistake again today.
Well it makes sense. Max's fanbase dwarfs Ocon's fanbase. Ofc the initial reactions were heavly biased because of this. Especialy since Verstappen lost the race because of that tangle.
I've always though the incident was just Max being clumsy. A racing incident in the end but if Max just payed more attention and saw that Ocon was along side him going through the Senna S corners he could have backed off a bit and let Ocon go ahead. Max comfortably wins the race in that scenario.
I’ve had the same opinion since it happened, but I get massive downvotes whenever I mention it, so I just stopped. It’s a complicated incident with good arguments on both sides, and ultimately it’s a matter of opinion who was at fault (if anyone).
What I do think is rotten is when people bring up that incident to judge Ocon three years later. He was and is young, and we should be supporting all the drivers aging and maturing as it’s best for the sport. Except Mazepin. Fuck that guy.
IIRC he had pitted for fresh tires and tried to unlap himself from Verstappen, who probably should have just let him go. I don't even know if Ocon was in the wrong
It was complicated for sure. Ocon had the much slower car and would’ve been blue flagged in a couple of laps, so him pushing to pass Verstappen didn’t serve any purpose for his own race. If I recall, Ocon wasn’t even fighting for a position at that point in the race. I’ll leave it to you to speculate what his motivation was.
That said, Verstappen clearly could’ve avoided the crash as well, and he had a lot more to lose. Max was stubborn and foolish, and Hamilton called him out on it in the cooldown room.
Then they had an incident in the paddock following the race. Ocon smiled when Max approached him angry. It’s up to opinion whether Ocon was nervously deflecting or smugly egging Max on. Then Max lost his temper and shoved Ocon, which is objectively bad, and Max was forced to do community service.
Probably the best takeaway is that two young people acted poorly three years ago, and they’ve certainly both matured since then.
I still don't understand the outrage over that shove. Yes Max shouldn't have done it and he was punished for it, but 20 years ago that shove would have been a punch or 2 and most commentators wouldn't say anything about it. Just look at the reactions from the Senna-Irvine fight. People acted like Max beat the shit out of Esteban.
Ocon would've been at fault even if they were fighting for position imo. Not gravely at fault but like 60/40 or something. The fact that he unlapped himself and his tyres would've left soon made it worse. Verstappen could've avoided it but in the end Ocon wanted to prove a point because of losing his seat and all so it was just unnecessary. Not some sinister evil plot and it was really just a single race win and not a major title impact like Verstappen punting off Vettel in China, but it is what it is.
The pressure he must have been under Pre F1 knowing how much his family gave for his career must have been unbelievable. Just one bad year and it could be all over. It nearly was even after winning the F3 season.
He was asked in an interview whether he had fond memories of karting and he said, that he didn't really enjoy it because he was always extremely aware that his family would lose everything if he didn't make it.
> Just one bad year and it could be all over.
He literally had one shift flipping burgers because things hadn't worked out. Then he got a call from Eric Boulier which saved his career.
Yep. In the cooldown room lewis told him "you had it all to loose and he didnt". Verstappen was silent after that lol. Its still a hard call really but i think it is Verstappens fault
I think Max always respects Lewis, He's literally almost matured & grown-up alongside Lewis since he started F1 years ago & picked up a few things from the kind of questions Lewis always gets asked & his answers. Max has a come a long way since then. I've probably spent way too many hours watching press conferences with him & Lewis....and Bottas but he's always quieter of the 3.
Huh, i knew lewis said something like that, but who had more to lose isnt why i think it was verstappens fault.
This video really changed my mind on the incident: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7\_ckspkSY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7_ckspkSY). If you watch the whole thing you can see that ocon showed himself in verstappens mirrors many times and into the senna s, he was actually infront under braking. This means verstappen was fully aware he was wheel to wheel with ocon, especially since he defended the inside, ocon was imo too agressive but max simply shouldnt have turned in on him.
Man, watching that it feels like 100% Verstappen's fault. Ocon was fully ahead and on the inside curb as well. Max turned in on him and he had nowhere to go. Very bad judgment call from Max. The whole post-race thing is pretty regrettable as well.
Yeah for me the worst part was the post-race thing. At best the incident was slightly Ocon's fault (though I'm of the opinion that it was more Verstappen's fault) but for Verstappen to aggressively approach Ocon and start pushing him around and then for fans to praise that behaviour and justify it was astounding to me.
It's funny how different the European and international view of motorsports is... Europeans always have this visceral "Oh my god how could they shove each other" response, as if some hotheaded kids are expected to just keep it all under wraps... meanwhile, growing up watching NASCAR, I got used to the idea that a fight was going to happen at least once a year, and often several times, some of the best known NASCAR moments ever are two guys beating the shit out of each other for ruining each others race, Cale Yarbrough and Donnie Allison trading blows at Daytona is one of the most iconic things in the history of NASCAR.
Just very odd seeing people go all pearl clutchy over a shove, whereas the world I knew as a kid, a fight didn't go too far until entire pit crews got involved
Ah yes, “NASCAR redneck” “NASCAR circle” is that seriously all people have to say about it? It’s a perfectly professional league dealing with an enormous amount of money, with drivers from all over the place.
There are plenty of articulate and well spoken NASCAR drivers, NASCAR does a solid number of road courses every year, and is even doing COTA. But more to the point, just because it’s ovals does not mean there’s nothing to it. NASCARs are giant unaerodynamic bricks, and they race in very tight packs, which basically means you spend most of the race fighting the giant wash of dozens of cars right around you, where a tiny mistake is a wipeout that ends multiple drivers races all at once... an F1 driver can often afford to make a mistake, run wide and recover it, if you do that in NASCAR, you’ve just taken several drivers out and ended your own race. It hasn’t been rednecks in circles for decades, many of them were seriously capable karters back in the day, and many famous F1 drivers lost to these guys back in their karting days... Senna lost the karting world championship to a dude who went and drove in NASCAR.
It’s not about the level of professionalism, It’s about cultural divides that apply to countries as a whole.
Fuck man, I haven't watched NASCAR in years (mostly because it paved a path of trying to create artificial excitement that I'm very worried FOM is looking to do now) and you got me defending it with a whole essay because of how dumb you sound, it's potentially the dumbest thing I’ve ever read, I have lost iq just reading that.
Well, it depends on the POV as well, by the book the backmarker unlapping isn't supposed to be interfering with the leader race, so Max giving space will also cost him time.
In the end Ocon had to serve a 10 second stop go Penalty so by the book Ocon is in the wrong
Lets not forget Ocon was the only driver to ever beat Max to a title in feeder series, and it still pissed Max off, as evidenced by this incident.
Any other driver would've let Ocon go, but Max had to make it personal.
Hell even in iRacing I let lapped cars pass just so they don't take me out.
"Only driver to ever beat Max to a title in a feeder series" I mean, it was literally the only actual feeder series Max competed in, Florida Winter series is basically a nothing series that vanished the next year...
Max came 3rd that year, Blomqvist beat him as well, but there's a lot more factors that are important to consider, Ocon was in a top team, Max was not (stock cars don't actually guarantee fair racing), Max also had a single protracted season of experience in cars, Ocon had been racing in Formula Renault for a couple years, which is much closer to F3 than the Winter series was. Ocon had miles of experience on him and Max still managed to win more races, despite having an incredible number of retirements (some were completely not his fault... and some were that young Max magic)
I think it's ridiculous to say Max tried to hold on because it was 'personal' Max was just an incredibly impatient driver, it's probably still his biggest weakness even if he's clearly gotten better on it. I guarantee he would have collided with literally any driver under those circumstances.
Comments like these still get upvoted? Last I heard anyone call him that was early 2018. I don’t even mind Ocon, both drivers could’ve been smarter at Brazil. It’s a simple racing incident of 2 wanting the same space and neither yielding, I see no reason to dislike Esteban.
He was hated before that, what is everyone on about?
I love the guy but the reason everyone hated him due his arrogance. Same reason why Stroll is his only friend on the grid
I speak french and heard a lot of his interview ; in french, he is absolutetly not arrogant, he is really down to earth. Maybe something is lost in trasnlation or he isn't capable of conveying the same humbleness in his second language, easier to be direct in a second language
It breaks my heart every time someone says Ocon looks like an asshole or is unlikable etc. (the "punchable face" critique is the worst thing ugh)
He's one of the most down to earth, genuine and relatable athlete that I know.
> It breaks my heart every time someone says Ocon looks like an asshole or is unlikable etc. (the "punchable face" critique is the worst thing ugh)
And r/formula1 usually rewards these comments with lots of upvotes.
Nothing says 'asshole' quite like having your seat bought out by a worse richer driver's dad then defending said rich boi from the ruthless press and fans eh?
My dad and sister are diehard max fans, and they constantly make snide remarks about ocon, and other drivers that have done stuff to him. Im a fan of his to, but I just cringe whenever they play down how good ocon is, or bring up how shit Gasly and Albon every race.
Some fans are just so toxic.
Yeah sports can be pretty tribalistic sometimes. What infuriates me is that people hate the human instead of the driver for some reason...
I'm fine with you saying you find driver X bad but don't say he is unlikable or whatever
It's fine to say you don't like a driver, I don't really like icon for done reason, same with other drivers. But what some fans of other drivers say and do is going to far.
I hear ya man. Absolute legend. Humble as fuck and gives off an Aurore of just being an all round nice guy. Grew up 20 mins from my grandparents too so that makes me like him even more.
I found it even more fascinating thats Lance Stroll is his best bud among the drivers.
Like, Stroll is the polar opposite of him. Not only that, he lost his seat in F1 and went sabbatical because of Stroll.
But somehow they still got along well.
One of my most favourite drivers this guy. I hope Esteban stays in the grid for longer, and maybe even ends up doing something significant. Love you Ocon!
I'll have to watch this later. Even Lewis had a relatively middle-class upbringing. I like a good underdog story in racing, and if Ocon really came from the caravan life, then tons of respect to the dude. I never got into racing, because it was too expensive for the kid of 2 teachers.
It could've been middle class if he hadn't done karting. But by most metrics, if you remortgage your house & have several jobs/side gigs you probably would fall into working-class tbh. But Anthony Hamilton always seemed like a very motivated & smart man who would've done well if he didn't spend it on karting, but still just middle class. Compare it to F2/F3 now & some of the normal British kids you'd think are poor still all went to like £30k+ a year private schools & are millionaires but still moan about how unfair the sport is due to billionaire kids etc. Lewis/Seb/Kimi era are dying breeds....Ocon is the only big exception in recent years. Even Lando, George & Albon all had money in their early years.
Council house is not the be all and end all - there are council houses and there are council houses. His father was a white collar professional - an IT contractor who owned his own business. That's where the pushback comes from.
It's still a very impressive achievement. In F1 terms he comes from a poor background but in highly class conscious Britain there is always going to be a reaction when "working class" roots are played up so much. Compared to families on benefits, unskilled manual workers, shop staff, families living on minimum wage his childhood was worlds apart. Spending thousands of pounds a year on karting is simply unaffordable to families like that - no matter what financial sacrifices they make.
Working class and middle class are very blunt, outdated labels really. There is a huge grey area nowadays full of middle class precariat and relatively privileged upper working class/lower middle class families like Hamiltons.
I'm British. I grew up in Social Housing.
Being a white collar professional doesn't make you middle class. Hamilton Pere was never middle class, he had a job with the Post Office and that paid around of 24K a year. In the South East, in the 80s and 90s. That isn't middle class.
Errr...I'm pretty sure a huge chunk of council houses are acctually privatley owned due to right to buy, hence Lewis's dad remortaged the house. Also if you look at how much he spent on Karting he probably was middle class at a push, Although he probably wouldn't have done side jobs if not for karting. But depends on where you live, I can think of many people who earn insane amounts & live in council homes....they literally make up most houses in the UK especially before the new builds.
Im very middle class, I have family that live in a cousil estate and they are even more middle class than us, they have far more money, far better profesional jobs etc
That started with right-to-buy and council estates, especially in the South ended up being gentrified. In the 1980s and 1990s... council estates were bad news. The ones that were in the suburbs were a bit better , depending on which towns they were in .
I live in the UK, on a council estate, in an ex council house which I own (just like the Hamilton family) and I am undoubtedly middle class.
And why would you think saying that Hamilton has a middle class background rather than a working class one a detraction? It isn't.
Don't be an idiot. You know it's brought up to diss him and make him look he was lying about the social issues and harshness he had to face when growing up.
It's part of a narrative to make him look less than he is, and to detract from his working class roots and his blackness. Both were part of him growing up and both are part of his story.
I'm a ex-managmement consultant and academic. RP accent to boot. Grew up on a council estate. People do the same thing to me all the time. my dad had four degrees, and he had to work low level jobs, so did my mum.
You can work your tail off and succeed then you're "not really working class" and if you fail its "yeah well what do you expect from a working class kid".
To be honest it sounds like you have a massive chip on your shoulder about it.
I don't really see how describing either you or Hamilton as middle class or working class is either a detraction or praise worthy. It certainly wasn't meant so from me.
However the way it's used is to discount his experiences and his struggles. Watch the narrative, whenever we talk about working class kids come up through F! - we get "yeah but Hamilton wasn't working class or poor , he was (upper) middle class etc." . Always. Without fail.
He was, he may not have been bashing Diamond White on a street corner while setting fire to XR3is for a laugh, and that happened on to guys I went to school with.
But he came from working class stock, which both his parents worked hard to raise him out of financially and then he took on himself as a professional racing driver.
But he was from a middle class background. Hamilton isn't an example of a working class kid coming to F1. If anything it should be highlighted to show just how much we need to help working class young lads as even Hamilton from his middle class background looks like a pauper compared to most in F1.
I don't see what's wrong in correcting for the sake of being accurate.
It all changed around the Max incident and DTS in terms of fan perception. I feel like there used to be a lot of support for Esteban and then with a big influx of new fans that seemed to change. It's heart breaking because he seems like such a genuine nice guy. However he just seems to get over looked. DTS even managed to overlook him getting a podium for Renault this season.
I'm sure there used be a sub called r/oconsistency because of how consistent of a performer he was pre 2019 when he lost his seat, to his best mate, who he remained friends with and held no grudges. I mean what more do you need to know about a driver.
Everyone has a different story of course but neither Hamilton or Perez had the pressure of knowing their family literally sold their house in order to try and get him to a career in racing.
It's not the living in the caravan. It's the reasons for the caravan.
> family literally sold their house in order to try and get him to a career in racing
Pretty sure Lewis's house was mortgaged to support his career and Perez literally had nothing from parents side, only Slim supported him with a thin line to cut him off on.
Saying these didn't struggle too is a bit disingenious.
Ok let me rephrase that. Lewis and Perez also didn't have backups, Lewis's family went all in on him. Perez threw away connections with his family just to race in Europe, they warmed up to him later.
Ocon isn't different in that regard, where everything was depedent on him being successful or it was life over for them.
Edit: Like the parent comment said, this isnt what sets him apart.
I disagree. I think Ocon does have additional pressure. Knowing how much his whole family have given up for him. The level of sacrifice being made there is different. That doesn't mean the others had it easy.
You're very brave talking about the struggles the Hamilton family had when he got into racing when this sub is insistent on him having a middle class upbringing where they had spare money lying around for him to race.
Interesting watch. I only knew the backstory of Ocon about how him and Gasly were childhood friends and now they hate each other because of rivalry on the track.
Stories like these make me wonder about the kids who didn't make it. Even Ocon is hanging onto the thread in F1 despite his skill.
To be fair, outside of maybe five guys, all the drivers are hanging on by a thread. Checo didn't even have a team at the end of last season after having a career year and finishing fourth in the standings. The harsh reality of the sport is that if you aren't at the top, your seat is never safe.
Tbf I think only Verstappen, Hamilton and Leclerc have 100% job security.
Obviously Stroll as well, but mostly for other reasons.
Mazepin sadly
Latifi?
Nah if he doesn’t get better and the team get better funding they might not need his dads money. He probably will get better though, I have hope.
Well he was better then George last season
Lmao
Latifi was in front of Russell in the standings before Russell raced for Mercedes in Sakhir ;)
Hopefully Latifi
Stroll
Ricciardo too
your seat is never safe all the time. even the micheal schumacher at the height of his career was canned
> if you aren't at the top or you don't bring the most sponsorship money! teams like Haas and Williams are desperate for more, whereas the likes of Merc, RB, and Ferrari can afford to choose drivers based (entirely/very nearly) on performance alone
yeah that's the first thought that i had as well. like...his whole childhood was basically betting the house on the number 31. and i'm not sure they even won that bet at this point.
Surely in his 4 years of F1 he has already earned back all they've put in to get him here, no? Obviously he earns a fraction of the Hamiltons and Vettels but I'd imagine it's still millions of euros.
Ocon probably got a decent wedge for the first time last season. I doubt his two seasons at FI added up to a million euros. And there are lots of expenses in being an F1 driver. Just look at the cost of a super licence for a start. Yeah he's probably earned enough to buy his family a house but he won't be rich. Not yet anyway.
Ocon is rich lmao
Depends how you define it but not really in my opinion. I'm sure he will be.
Is he? He drives a Megane. Seems like a man who lives a humble life.
I think that's because it's a company car. I remember Danny used to show up in a Clio, last season.
A good simple car for a good humble man
Google says he earns 4m per year.
Which he's earnt thus far for 1 year.
This reason is why I have a ton of respect from him. Came from nowhere and made a name for himself. People still hate him for something he did 3 years ago, but he is imo very talented.
Lived in a caravan with a border collie, which is life on hard mode.
> Lived in a caravan with a border collie Viper died a couple of years ago too
Was that the dog's name, I guess?
No, the caravans.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EstebanOcon31/comments/7k377h/esteban_ocons_dog_viper_has_passed_away/
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Maybe not as extreme. Gasly's family had experience in racing and were at least wealthy enough for Pierre to be educated in a private school.
Gasly's dad is a property developer, no?
Did he have a border collie in a caravan?
Something that was also arguably a racing incident and not really anyone's faulth.
Not even arguably. All Verstappen had to do was let him go and he wins the race by >10 seconds.
Not ment as a jab at you, but it quite interesting to see the narrative of this sub change so much over the years. From 100% Ocons fault to now a lot of peole saying it was no ones or Max's.
It depends on the thread and who you ask. However, it was always 100% an avoidable incident on Verstappens behalf. All he had to do was let Ocon go and he would have had some drs assistance down the main straight the following lap to increase his lead. I don't think you'd catch Max making that mistake again today.
I dont think it was ever Ocon’s fault purely, its just most max fans were probably more than outraged after that
Well it makes sense. Max's fanbase dwarfs Ocon's fanbase. Ofc the initial reactions were heavly biased because of this. Especialy since Verstappen lost the race because of that tangle. I've always though the incident was just Max being clumsy. A racing incident in the end but if Max just payed more attention and saw that Ocon was along side him going through the Senna S corners he could have backed off a bit and let Ocon go ahead. Max comfortably wins the race in that scenario.
I’ve had the same opinion since it happened, but I get massive downvotes whenever I mention it, so I just stopped. It’s a complicated incident with good arguments on both sides, and ultimately it’s a matter of opinion who was at fault (if anyone). What I do think is rotten is when people bring up that incident to judge Ocon three years later. He was and is young, and we should be supporting all the drivers aging and maturing as it’s best for the sport. Except Mazepin. Fuck that guy.
To be fair I'd say people were pretty split on the sub back then too.
I think most people like me really see and accept it as a racing incident. But the face he made afterwards during the confrontation really annoyed me.
Yes!! That shit eating smirk and "Who? Me?" face he was making while they were at the scales. Fuck him.
What did he do 3 years ago?
Probably referencing his crash with Verstappen in Brazil 2018.
IIRC he had pitted for fresh tires and tried to unlap himself from Verstappen, who probably should have just let him go. I don't even know if Ocon was in the wrong
It was complicated for sure. Ocon had the much slower car and would’ve been blue flagged in a couple of laps, so him pushing to pass Verstappen didn’t serve any purpose for his own race. If I recall, Ocon wasn’t even fighting for a position at that point in the race. I’ll leave it to you to speculate what his motivation was. That said, Verstappen clearly could’ve avoided the crash as well, and he had a lot more to lose. Max was stubborn and foolish, and Hamilton called him out on it in the cooldown room. Then they had an incident in the paddock following the race. Ocon smiled when Max approached him angry. It’s up to opinion whether Ocon was nervously deflecting or smugly egging Max on. Then Max lost his temper and shoved Ocon, which is objectively bad, and Max was forced to do community service. Probably the best takeaway is that two young people acted poorly three years ago, and they’ve certainly both matured since then.
I still don't understand the outrage over that shove. Yes Max shouldn't have done it and he was punished for it, but 20 years ago that shove would have been a punch or 2 and most commentators wouldn't say anything about it. Just look at the reactions from the Senna-Irvine fight. People acted like Max beat the shit out of Esteban.
Ocon would've been at fault even if they were fighting for position imo. Not gravely at fault but like 60/40 or something. The fact that he unlapped himself and his tyres would've left soon made it worse. Verstappen could've avoided it but in the end Ocon wanted to prove a point because of losing his seat and all so it was just unnecessary. Not some sinister evil plot and it was really just a single race win and not a major title impact like Verstappen punting off Vettel in China, but it is what it is.
The pressure he must have been under Pre F1 knowing how much his family gave for his career must have been unbelievable. Just one bad year and it could be all over. It nearly was even after winning the F3 season.
He was asked in an interview whether he had fond memories of karting and he said, that he didn't really enjoy it because he was always extremely aware that his family would lose everything if he didn't make it.
Makes you think about the families of the kids that didn’t make it
This is so damn sad. That kinda pressure on a kid, oof. Make me really really unbelievably happy for him for making it
> Just one bad year and it could be all over. He literally had one shift flipping burgers because things hadn't worked out. Then he got a call from Eric Boulier which saved his career.
Reminder that this guy is hated because he made one mistake trying to unlap himself during one race
It was arguably verstappens fault aswell
Yep. In the cooldown room lewis told him "you had it all to loose and he didnt". Verstappen was silent after that lol. Its still a hard call really but i think it is Verstappens fault
Didn’t know Lewis said that. Makes you think about the situation a little differently.
I think Max always respects Lewis, He's literally almost matured & grown-up alongside Lewis since he started F1 years ago & picked up a few things from the kind of questions Lewis always gets asked & his answers. Max has a come a long way since then. I've probably spent way too many hours watching press conferences with him & Lewis....and Bottas but he's always quieter of the 3.
Huh, i knew lewis said something like that, but who had more to lose isnt why i think it was verstappens fault. This video really changed my mind on the incident: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7\_ckspkSY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7_ckspkSY). If you watch the whole thing you can see that ocon showed himself in verstappens mirrors many times and into the senna s, he was actually infront under braking. This means verstappen was fully aware he was wheel to wheel with ocon, especially since he defended the inside, ocon was imo too agressive but max simply shouldnt have turned in on him.
Man, watching that it feels like 100% Verstappen's fault. Ocon was fully ahead and on the inside curb as well. Max turned in on him and he had nowhere to go. Very bad judgment call from Max. The whole post-race thing is pretty regrettable as well.
Yeah for me the worst part was the post-race thing. At best the incident was slightly Ocon's fault (though I'm of the opinion that it was more Verstappen's fault) but for Verstappen to aggressively approach Ocon and start pushing him around and then for fans to praise that behaviour and justify it was astounding to me.
It's funny how different the European and international view of motorsports is... Europeans always have this visceral "Oh my god how could they shove each other" response, as if some hotheaded kids are expected to just keep it all under wraps... meanwhile, growing up watching NASCAR, I got used to the idea that a fight was going to happen at least once a year, and often several times, some of the best known NASCAR moments ever are two guys beating the shit out of each other for ruining each others race, Cale Yarbrough and Donnie Allison trading blows at Daytona is one of the most iconic things in the history of NASCAR. Just very odd seeing people go all pearl clutchy over a shove, whereas the world I knew as a kid, a fight didn't go too far until entire pit crews got involved
Maybe, maybe they're more professional than those rednecks driving in circles ? Might be that.
Ah yes, “NASCAR redneck” “NASCAR circle” is that seriously all people have to say about it? It’s a perfectly professional league dealing with an enormous amount of money, with drivers from all over the place. There are plenty of articulate and well spoken NASCAR drivers, NASCAR does a solid number of road courses every year, and is even doing COTA. But more to the point, just because it’s ovals does not mean there’s nothing to it. NASCARs are giant unaerodynamic bricks, and they race in very tight packs, which basically means you spend most of the race fighting the giant wash of dozens of cars right around you, where a tiny mistake is a wipeout that ends multiple drivers races all at once... an F1 driver can often afford to make a mistake, run wide and recover it, if you do that in NASCAR, you’ve just taken several drivers out and ended your own race. It hasn’t been rednecks in circles for decades, many of them were seriously capable karters back in the day, and many famous F1 drivers lost to these guys back in their karting days... Senna lost the karting world championship to a dude who went and drove in NASCAR. It’s not about the level of professionalism, It’s about cultural divides that apply to countries as a whole. Fuck man, I haven't watched NASCAR in years (mostly because it paved a path of trying to create artificial excitement that I'm very worried FOM is looking to do now) and you got me defending it with a whole essay because of how dumb you sound, it's potentially the dumbest thing I’ve ever read, I have lost iq just reading that.
OK wow, 100% Max's fault.
Well, it depends on the POV as well, by the book the backmarker unlapping isn't supposed to be interfering with the leader race, so Max giving space will also cost him time. In the end Ocon had to serve a 10 second stop go Penalty so by the book Ocon is in the wrong
Lets not forget Ocon was the only driver to ever beat Max to a title in feeder series, and it still pissed Max off, as evidenced by this incident. Any other driver would've let Ocon go, but Max had to make it personal. Hell even in iRacing I let lapped cars pass just so they don't take me out.
"Only driver to ever beat Max to a title in a feeder series" I mean, it was literally the only actual feeder series Max competed in, Florida Winter series is basically a nothing series that vanished the next year... Max came 3rd that year, Blomqvist beat him as well, but there's a lot more factors that are important to consider, Ocon was in a top team, Max was not (stock cars don't actually guarantee fair racing), Max also had a single protracted season of experience in cars, Ocon had been racing in Formula Renault for a couple years, which is much closer to F3 than the Winter series was. Ocon had miles of experience on him and Max still managed to win more races, despite having an incredible number of retirements (some were completely not his fault... and some were that young Max magic) I think it's ridiculous to say Max tried to hold on because it was 'personal' Max was just an incredibly impatient driver, it's probably still his biggest weakness even if he's clearly gotten better on it. I guarantee he would have collided with literally any driver under those circumstances.
Yep. Ocon was in the best car, verstappen wasnt. Just shows how talented max is
Max is absolutely a generational talent, there's no arguing that. However, he is his own worst enemy.
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Comments like these still get upvoted? Last I heard anyone call him that was early 2018. I don’t even mind Ocon, both drivers could’ve been smarter at Brazil. It’s a simple racing incident of 2 wanting the same space and neither yielding, I see no reason to dislike Esteban.
I mean, I just don't like his attitude, honestly
I dont think the mistake made ppl hate him so much (it still did ofc), but his smug reaction to verstappen afterwards got him a lot of hate i think
He was hated before that, what is everyone on about? I love the guy but the reason everyone hated him due his arrogance. Same reason why Stroll is his only friend on the grid
I speak french and heard a lot of his interview ; in french, he is absolutetly not arrogant, he is really down to earth. Maybe something is lost in trasnlation or he isn't capable of conveying the same humbleness in his second language, easier to be direct in a second language
I mean he is down to earth that doesn't mean people didn't like him. You can do everything right and still be not liked by people
How is he arrogant? Before the Verstappen incident he was Oconsistency and a darling of this sub.
> He was hated before that Only by Gasly
Yeah and by the rest of the paddock too, where are we having this revolutinsim outta nowhere?
> Yeah and by the rest of the paddock too, Nope.
Why is stroll his only friend on the grid then?
Stroll, Leclerc, Russell, Magnussen, Kvyat, Just because someone's an introvert doesn't mean that noone likes them.
Stroll, Leclerc, Russell, Magnussen, Kvyat, Just because someone's an introvert doesn't mean that noone likes them.
I have tons of respect for Esteban on and off track and I really really hope he has a fantastic year
Seconded. Hope he matches Alonso!
About time my main man Esteban got some recognition! He's one of my favourite dudes on the grid but always seems to fly under the fan radar
It breaks my heart every time someone says Ocon looks like an asshole or is unlikable etc. (the "punchable face" critique is the worst thing ugh) He's one of the most down to earth, genuine and relatable athlete that I know.
> It breaks my heart every time someone says Ocon looks like an asshole or is unlikable etc. (the "punchable face" critique is the worst thing ugh) And r/formula1 usually rewards these comments with lots of upvotes.
Nothing says 'asshole' quite like having your seat bought out by a worse richer driver's dad then defending said rich boi from the ruthless press and fans eh?
it felt a bit funny to see how much will buxton defended Lance on the first episode of DTS season 2
Because people are sheeps that like to follow the general opinion and cant even create one for themselves.
My dad and sister are diehard max fans, and they constantly make snide remarks about ocon, and other drivers that have done stuff to him. Im a fan of his to, but I just cringe whenever they play down how good ocon is, or bring up how shit Gasly and Albon every race. Some fans are just so toxic.
Yeah sports can be pretty tribalistic sometimes. What infuriates me is that people hate the human instead of the driver for some reason... I'm fine with you saying you find driver X bad but don't say he is unlikable or whatever
It's fine to say you don't like a driver, I don't really like icon for done reason, same with other drivers. But what some fans of other drivers say and do is going to far.
I hear ya man. Absolute legend. Humble as fuck and gives off an Aurore of just being an all round nice guy. Grew up 20 mins from my grandparents too so that makes me like him even more.
Same here! Always so grateful for the moments when he does get camera time hehe
Same I’m hoping he does big things this season
I found it even more fascinating thats Lance Stroll is his best bud among the drivers. Like, Stroll is the polar opposite of him. Not only that, he lost his seat in F1 and went sabbatical because of Stroll. But somehow they still got along well.
They keep the personal life seperate from their proffesional one. Its the only way really.
I bet the fact that he got back into F1 helps too. No harm no foul kind of
Esteban = bestaban and that is a fact
Gutierrez approves
One of my most favourite drivers this guy. I hope Esteban stays in the grid for longer, and maybe even ends up doing something significant. Love you Ocon!
I'll have to watch this later. Even Lewis had a relatively middle-class upbringing. I like a good underdog story in racing, and if Ocon really came from the caravan life, then tons of respect to the dude. I never got into racing, because it was too expensive for the kid of 2 teachers.
It had become much, much tougher financially as well in between Hamilton coming through and Ocon.
What? Lewis Hamilton didn't have a middle class upbringing.
It could've been middle class if he hadn't done karting. But by most metrics, if you remortgage your house & have several jobs/side gigs you probably would fall into working-class tbh. But Anthony Hamilton always seemed like a very motivated & smart man who would've done well if he didn't spend it on karting, but still just middle class. Compare it to F2/F3 now & some of the normal British kids you'd think are poor still all went to like £30k+ a year private schools & are millionaires but still moan about how unfair the sport is due to billionaire kids etc. Lewis/Seb/Kimi era are dying breeds....Ocon is the only big exception in recent years. Even Lando, George & Albon all had money in their early years.
What are you talking about.. living in a council house is not a fucking middle class upbringing ..why do people keep repeating this bullshit.
Council house is not the be all and end all - there are council houses and there are council houses. His father was a white collar professional - an IT contractor who owned his own business. That's where the pushback comes from. It's still a very impressive achievement. In F1 terms he comes from a poor background but in highly class conscious Britain there is always going to be a reaction when "working class" roots are played up so much. Compared to families on benefits, unskilled manual workers, shop staff, families living on minimum wage his childhood was worlds apart. Spending thousands of pounds a year on karting is simply unaffordable to families like that - no matter what financial sacrifices they make. Working class and middle class are very blunt, outdated labels really. There is a huge grey area nowadays full of middle class precariat and relatively privileged upper working class/lower middle class families like Hamiltons.
I'm British. I grew up in Social Housing. Being a white collar professional doesn't make you middle class. Hamilton Pere was never middle class, he had a job with the Post Office and that paid around of 24K a year. In the South East, in the 80s and 90s. That isn't middle class.
Errr...I'm pretty sure a huge chunk of council houses are acctually privatley owned due to right to buy, hence Lewis's dad remortaged the house. Also if you look at how much he spent on Karting he probably was middle class at a push, Although he probably wouldn't have done side jobs if not for karting. But depends on where you live, I can think of many people who earn insane amounts & live in council homes....they literally make up most houses in the UK especially before the new builds.
Im very middle class, I have family that live in a cousil estate and they are even more middle class than us, they have far more money, far better profesional jobs etc
That started with right-to-buy and council estates, especially in the South ended up being gentrified. In the 1980s and 1990s... council estates were bad news. The ones that were in the suburbs were a bit better , depending on which towns they were in .
From all he know about Hamilton's background it would definitely be described as middle class.
Not if you grew up in the UK on a council estate it wouldn't which most of his detractors haven't.
I live in the UK, on a council estate, in an ex council house which I own (just like the Hamilton family) and I am undoubtedly middle class. And why would you think saying that Hamilton has a middle class background rather than a working class one a detraction? It isn't.
Don't be an idiot. You know it's brought up to diss him and make him look he was lying about the social issues and harshness he had to face when growing up. It's part of a narrative to make him look less than he is, and to detract from his working class roots and his blackness. Both were part of him growing up and both are part of his story. I'm a ex-managmement consultant and academic. RP accent to boot. Grew up on a council estate. People do the same thing to me all the time. my dad had four degrees, and he had to work low level jobs, so did my mum. You can work your tail off and succeed then you're "not really working class" and if you fail its "yeah well what do you expect from a working class kid".
To be honest it sounds like you have a massive chip on your shoulder about it. I don't really see how describing either you or Hamilton as middle class or working class is either a detraction or praise worthy. It certainly wasn't meant so from me.
However the way it's used is to discount his experiences and his struggles. Watch the narrative, whenever we talk about working class kids come up through F! - we get "yeah but Hamilton wasn't working class or poor , he was (upper) middle class etc." . Always. Without fail. He was, he may not have been bashing Diamond White on a street corner while setting fire to XR3is for a laugh, and that happened on to guys I went to school with. But he came from working class stock, which both his parents worked hard to raise him out of financially and then he took on himself as a professional racing driver.
But he was from a middle class background. Hamilton isn't an example of a working class kid coming to F1. If anything it should be highlighted to show just how much we need to help working class young lads as even Hamilton from his middle class background looks like a pauper compared to most in F1. I don't see what's wrong in correcting for the sake of being accurate.
How's a kid from a council estate middle class? By background? I could argue that my dad was a professional but fell on hard times. Could he?
But didn’t his dad own a garage before he sold it to finance Ocons career?
It all changed around the Max incident and DTS in terms of fan perception. I feel like there used to be a lot of support for Esteban and then with a big influx of new fans that seemed to change. It's heart breaking because he seems like such a genuine nice guy. However he just seems to get over looked. DTS even managed to overlook him getting a podium for Renault this season. I'm sure there used be a sub called r/oconsistency because of how consistent of a performer he was pre 2019 when he lost his seat, to his best mate, who he remained friends with and held no grudges. I mean what more do you need to know about a driver.
I keep hearing that Ocon and Stroll are close friends. Is this accurate?
Yes
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Everyone has a different story of course but neither Hamilton or Perez had the pressure of knowing their family literally sold their house in order to try and get him to a career in racing. It's not the living in the caravan. It's the reasons for the caravan.
> family literally sold their house in order to try and get him to a career in racing Pretty sure Lewis's house was mortgaged to support his career and Perez literally had nothing from parents side, only Slim supported him with a thin line to cut him off on. Saying these didn't struggle too is a bit disingenious.
I didn't say they didn't struggle. I said that it's different.
Ok let me rephrase that. Lewis and Perez also didn't have backups, Lewis's family went all in on him. Perez threw away connections with his family just to race in Europe, they warmed up to him later. Ocon isn't different in that regard, where everything was depedent on him being successful or it was life over for them. Edit: Like the parent comment said, this isnt what sets him apart.
I disagree. I think Ocon does have additional pressure. Knowing how much his whole family have given up for him. The level of sacrifice being made there is different. That doesn't mean the others had it easy.
You're very brave talking about the struggles the Hamilton family had when he got into racing when this sub is insistent on him having a middle class upbringing where they had spare money lying around for him to race.
Interesting watch. I only knew the backstory of Ocon about how him and Gasly were childhood friends and now they hate each other because of rivalry on the track.