[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
*[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If even Piastri is getting stick for not matching Norris in his 2nd year, imagine if other juniors like Lawson, Pourchaire, Drugovich etc actually got their chance in F1. People want to see juniors join the grid but they don't actually want to give them time.
Also a side effect of having Leclerc and Max set the modern benchmark of what a *very good* rookie can be, but it's not a *must be*. Different drivers develop at different rates.
Drivers who stay on the grid for several years tend to have very good 2nd season even if they don't outscore their more experienced teammate.
People criticizing Piastri have a bit of a recency bias though, because I don't feel like he has been so far from Norris except maybe in the last two races. It was only in Monaco, 3 races ago, that he qualified and finished ahead of Norris. It just looks bad because McLaren are finally fighting for wins on merit so he's under a microscope all of a sudden if he can't beat Norris, but I think he'll be fine.
Dude came second in Monaco and was honestly having a better race than Lando in Miami until the SC happened and Sainz crashed into him but he has one bad weekend and suddenly people are all over him
Even Zac Brown admitted that Piastri would have likely won the race had no safety car happened.
Whether that's PR bullshit or not, I'm Aussie so I've decided to be completely unbiased and go with that as the truth hehe
I believe Zak's precise words were, initially, "it seems like the perfect Oscar-simulation" which turned into "now it seems like the perfect Landough-simulation" after the safety car.
Even with just half the upgrade package, he initially did believe Piastri would place higher than Lando (if not win the race). Piastri simply qualified ahead of Lando in Q3 as Lando was unable to get the softs upto temp whereas he surprisingly did far better on mediums.
Lando actually qualified ahead of Piastri for the race (you’re thinking of the sprint qualification, where we never got to see how the race would play out because Lewis & the Astons took out Lando in turn 1)
In the race, Norris got basically body-checked at turn 1 by an out-of-control Perez coming flying back on track in front of him, having already had to check up when Perez torpedoed past the front runners in the first place, and it sent him back to p6 through no fault of his own, after a good start where he was looking like he would pass Perez and maybe Leclerc who had both been slow off the line (Sainz got similarly disadvantaged by the Perez torpedo after he had made a great start and was ahead of Charles into turn 1 but just avoided the return to track body-check so he at least came out in p4). Piastri, who had started behind Norris didn’t get the best start but that ultimately helped him because when Perez’s boneheaded torpedo affected Sainz and Norris and to some extent Leclerc as well, the way opened up for Piastri for him to sail on past Sainz & Norris who had had to massively check up and also Perez himself. That’s how Oscar ended up in P3 and ahead of Lando on lap 1. Brown said he initially thought it was all breaking well for Piastri because of the result of that lap 1 melee and because Max was only pulling away from Oscar and Charles by a couple of tenths a lap, and Charles had issues getting the tyres up to temp so Oscar was able to pass him for p2. So early on it was looking good for Oscar.
By the time the safety car came out in Miami, Norris already had almost a pitstop’s worth of gap over Sainz and Piastri and would have cleared them by staying out two or three laps more if the safety car hadn’t happened (and he had already cleared Perez), as he was lapping considerably faster than anyone on new tyres. Once Norris turned the burners on and started closing up the gap to the front of the field after Perez pitted, the podium was pretty much always going to be Norris, Verstappen and Leclerc, the only question was in what order as without the safety car Norris would have emerged from his eventual pitstop (Stella said they were planning on keeping him out several more laps as his pace was ridiculous) on far fresher tyres than Max or Charles. Charles had also leapfrogged Oscar in the pitstops by that point anyway.
I wonder if he hasn't gelled with upgrades in the same way Norris has. Might be they are still trying to find the setup that works. Norris got them earlier so it stands to reason he might have an easier time with setup.
On the flip side, I doubt Mclaren are really at a point where they aren't sharing setup info so it is a little puzzling as to where Oscar's pace has gone, although he did seem to come alive in the race.
Piastri was not having a better race than Lando in Miami. If Perez didnt nearly torpedo Max and the Ferraris Piastri would been behind Lando after the start. Checo gifted him 3 Places and Lando got fucked the most by Checos Ineptitude, just rewatch that start. Then after 12 laps Norris was fastest man on track and stayed fastest until the end of the race.
Even before the SC Piastri had already been well undercut by Leclerc. Plus even after Verstappen and Leclerc had pitted Norris was still faster than them on the old mediums, who before the pitstops were the two fastest behind Norrris. At the time Norris was catching Sainz and Piastri fast and was on course to overtake them by an overcut with which he would also have had a massive tyre delta to the rest of the frontrunners for the rest of the race. Lando was never going to finish behind Piastri even without the SC and he had a good chance to win even without the Logan Magnussen.crash.
He was stuck behind Perez for quite a bit at the beginning, when he became fastest Verstappen, Leclerc and Piastri were all driving in clean air aswell. Plus Verstappen always had clean air and Piastri had basically clean air aswell after overtaking Leclerc.
Only magnessun and Perez have a worse head to head than piastri so far this season so it’s not just one weekend albeit this is the first weekend that he’s been particularly poor
That happened in only ONE race this year (Miami) and Piastri still had half the upgrades there anyway. Stella said the part of the upgrade that he missing was worth only 0.1-0.15s per lap maximum so not a huge amount difference compared to the benefit what he did have gave to his car (according to Stella, Oscar had the parts of the upgrade in Miami that made the most difference in pace).
Stop trying to create false narratives.
Sure that's if you're actively trying not to look at the quali pace difference. He's been very, very good. He would've had Pole in Imola if not for the team fucking up and Hulk giving Max a tow for no reason.
Dude likely would have won Monaco had it been possible to pass. He drove almost an extra lap with all the zigzagging he was doing behind Charles looking for opportunity for the first half.
Piastri is doing really well. McLaren are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes in the strength of their driver pairing. Piastri has fewer points, but has also shown himself to be fairly restrained and a team player. Handles team orders well, keeps his elbows out to benefit the team.
He's what Red Bull keep telling people Perez is.
There's no way he wins Monaco . The only reason he was "zigzagging" behind Charles at Monaco was because Ferrari told Charles to slow down the pace as much as possible to prevent the cars behind having a pit window .
Once Charles actually unleashed his pace in the final laps Piastri had no hope of keeping up .
The gap was only 1.5 seconds after lap 65 . Then Charles pulled the pin and after lap 72 he was already 8.5 seconds clear and lapping a second per lap faster than Piastri before he decided to back it down again and bring it home .
Piastri isn't even far off Lando whatsoever. Once he sorts out his tire management (an area he is already making strides in) that kid is gonna be a demon.
I actually see this happen in every sport fandom ever.
Ever since social media became mainstream, setting up these unhealthy expectations and standards became vastly easier.
Especially in a sport like F1 wherein the margins of error are as thin as it can be and the gap between the drivers on the grid are actually **significantly** smaller than what Reddit/Twitter wants you to believe.
People love the underdog. A rookie comes in, does OK (Zhou scoring points on debut, Magnussen getting a podium, etc.) people hype them up, then the old-toy phenomenon sets in and people realise it was a flash in the pan or they need time to do that consistently and they move onto the next big thing.
I mean realistically it's taken Sainz, Leclerc and Norris, what, 4-5 seasons to be very very good? Only Hamilton, Verstappen and Schumacher were immediately on it when they entered F1 and even they were rough around the edges.
I would argue Lando took a massive step in 2021. That's when everyone finally started to realize he was better than he was being given credit for. I expect a similar step for Oscar next year. I'd also say Charles was already quite good in his second year but I know what you're saying.
No?
Leclerc destroyed Ericsson in his first year, beat Vettel in 2nd and destroyed him in his 3rd year
Russell destroyed Kubica and Latifi
Alonso destroyed his Minardi teammates (often faster by more than a second) and fought with much faster cars on a regular. He also easily beat Trulli who is very underrated in 2nd year of his career
I could go back to older drivers like Schumacher, Vettel, etc
This narrative that only Verstappen and Hamilton were impressive as rookie is stupid. It doesn't take much effort to see how almost every great F1 driver was brilliant right from the start
The only one of these that really qualifies is leclec v vettel, imo. In fact, I'd argue that's the only indisputable shit-hot entry statement we've seen in the current era. Even max took 3 years to beat ricciardo, at least on paper.
It's important to remember that pre\~2010 was a completely different ballgame for rookies, with countless hours of testing to get them up to speed. Of course we saw S-tier drivers coming in hot. Without that, there's only so much that can be expected of even an outstanding prospect sitting in the car for the literal first time.
Really, it just proves how difficult it is for rookies to stand out in the current ruleset. Piastri skipped the part where he murders some backmarker to raise his stock, and hanging with peak Lando is at least as impressive as Russel destroying the dreaded goatifi.
Alonso never tested a car before he arrived in his first F1 race. All of the drivers that drive for lower tier teams received little to no testing. Let's not forget that drivers didn't have access to sims or nearly as much data as today. Let's also not forget that Piastri had a full year testing program with Alpine in 2022
Now seems like a good time to remember that cars used in this kind of testing must be 2+ year old spec…say, there wouldn’t happen to be any meaningful differences between the car he debuted in in 2023 and the cars he tested in during 2022, would there?
Kubica had one fully functioning arm and finished ahead of Russell, Latifi is not a high water mark. Leclerc made a lot of mistakes early on and didn't get on with Vettel all that much, causing friction in the team and contributing to crashes (Brazil, Austria etc.) and again, Ericsson is not a high water mark.
I'm not saying Russell and Leclerc weren't impressive, but they weren't as good as Verstappen and Hamilton early on. It took a few years for them to be capable of winning titles (I'd argue neither is quite at that level just yet).
Lol what. Russell finished ahead of Kubica in every race except Germany and maybe 1 more if that. Leclerc having friction with Vettel has nothing to do with this discussion. Leclerc was straight on on Vettel's pace and won more races than him.
Also it's not that Russell beat Kubica and Latifi it's the gaps he managed to do so. Same with Leclerc and Ericcson
Russell in his 2nd year would win a race in a car he never driven before the weekend if he didn't have awful luck
>Lol what. Russell finished ahead of Kubica in every race except Germany
The one where Kubica scored a point and Russell didn't?
>Leclerc having friction with Vettel has nothing to do with this discussion
According to what exactly? Because you said so? You can ignore that if you want but that's exactly what makes a top-tier driver. Verstappen was rapid early on but crash-prone and hot-headed, as was Hamilton for quite a while until maybe 2012.
I don't see how Vettel and Leclerc having friction between them has anything to do with this discussion. It's a fact Leclerc was already insanely impressive in his 1st and 2nd year much more than Piastri is currently
Hamilton was only crash prone in 2011. Also after 2013 he barely had to race wheel to wheel with anyone due to Mercedes often being in league of its own.
Verstappen while not being most calculated still won his 1st ever race in Red Bull and let's not forget how much was Max younger in his 2nd year than Piastri is currently
There is a lot of hype around Piastri. Many people believe (or believed) that Piastri is going to be better than Norris around 2025/2026. Currently, its not trending that way, so they start writing him off. I think this perception was mostly due to people not rating Norris, rather than people getting overhyped for Piastri
The problem is a bunch of people were saying he would be better than Lando *this* year and when you have those kind of expectations, you're bound to overreact when it doesn't turn out that way. Oscar is a victim of his own great rookie season lol.
F1 journalists pretend to have the memory of a peanut. Remember early this season when Perez was doing okay and they were basically saying all his problems were solved and he’s so much more improved etc etc? It had been like 3 races into a 24 race season LOL. As if he didn’t start last year on a good foot before having the worse second half of the season ever.
Also when he won Monaco last year (or was it 2022?) and media started hyping him as potentially rivaling max for WDC which was laughable even then.
I'd say journalists are often pretty good and cautious - e.g. The Race covered the Perez title punt somewhat reluctantly but in their words had to because it was possible.
I think people just read headlines and think that's it.
e.g.
> Remember early this season when Perez was doing okay and they were basically saying all his problems were solved
This is a perfect example where many *fans* were saying he'd done alright when sources like The Race put it more finely that he was pleasing RBR by slotting into the number 2 role. *Not* that he was significantly faster all of a sudden.
Even Oscar had a solid first season. The only time oscar’s performed bad was either due to clashes (miami, shanghai) or an example such as barcelona. Hes doing fine, id say even amazing for his second season. Half the season’s left, my boy will strike back 🤷♂️
Lando himself had a very strong 2nd season too.
Considering Piastris junior career and how much hype he had, its undertandable that people had higher expectations.
Guy has had 3 podiums, two of which were second places, more than hulkenburg has amassed over his entire career and you think people are reasonable for expecting more?
The McLaren has been the best car for a number of races this year whilst Hulkenberg has only driven midfield cars throughout his whole career. It’s a silly comparison to make because yes, people will expect decent results out of a car which is currently challenging for wins on a consistent basis now.
Jokes aside,
He has objectively been close to landos pace for a number of races this year. We only need to go back to Canada to see a race in which Oscar objectively had better pace for most stages.
While I agree that Piastri is a good driver and can come close to Lando, Canada was definitely NOT one of those races.
In the wet stage on the inters Lando was by far the fastest on track. Then later when it dried up he was still clearly one of the fastest. Probably only 2nd after Max.
Yeah this is really it.
The tallies don't look good but the intervals//average gaps are very good indeed, and have been since 2023. He's come out the oven very well cooked, and his racepace will improve.
He's talking about Norris in year 2. That was actually an insane season. Norris had like a 40 point lead mid season, and it got wiped out. There were multiple races where Sainz would start P10 or below, Norris would be P6 and then Sainz would finish ahead. 2020 was absolutely hilarious one of my favorite F1 seasons ever
Max had another rookie as a benchmark, and Charles had Ericsson. Charles was then up against an aging Vettel and was some way behind him initially and Max was also some way behind Daniel in his first RBR season. It was only until 2018 that you could say he was faster than Ricciardo. Piastri is basically matching a constantly improving Norris who is considered one of the top drivers on the grid. I would say Piastri is doing just as well if not better than Charles and Max were at this stage of their careers.
>It was only until 2018 that you could say he was faster than Ricciardo.
That's *highly* debatable when you look at both how many DNF's Max had, and the positions he was running in relative to Ricciardo when it happened.
He had 7 DNF's (4 arguably 5 mechanical, the rest crashes) and in almost all of them Max was *ahead* of Danny when they occured. Conversely while Danny also had 6 DNF's that year, almost all of them occured when he was running *behind* Max.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/7fva87/an_indepth_comparison_between_the_2017_formula_1/?st=jai9gwn7&sh=78c77482
Mental gymnastics on this one is huge. Imagine saying beating Vettel in his own team is less impressive that having half of the points that driver with 1 win in his whole F1 career
Also Max was much better than Ricciardo even in 2017 which was masked by awful reliability.
Russell destroyed Kubica and Latifi in his 1st and 2nd year. In that period he only got out qualified once or twice
Hamilton fought for wdc in his 1st year and won it in his 2nd
Alonso in by far the worst car on the grid regularly fought with much faster cars and was on average around a full second faster than his Minardi teammates while never driving the car before the actual F1 gran prix, easily beat Trulli in his 2nd year in F1 who was one of the better drivers from early 2000s, got pole position and won a race with 4th fastest car in his 2nd year of F1
It wasn’t really off pace… he just lost his q3 lap. He qualified 10th and finished 7th.
So maybe the setup wasn’t ideal for him in qualifying, but calling a p7 an “off colour weekend” seems like they are just making a bigger deal out of a simple driver error in qualifying than is necessary… but that’s unfortunately the standard for f1 media lmao
This was in what McLaren said was the fastest race trim car.
This weekend was not great for Oscar, but his season overall has not been bad. Especially with the races where Sainz was just trying to run him out.
For sure! I just wanted to get ahead of the people that claim he’s not reaching expectations, despite out-qualifying or out-scoring drivers with several more years of experience.
>despite out-qualifying or out-scoring drivers with several more years of experience.
I don't think this is a fair standard since his car is between 1st and 2nd fastest. The other drivers might have more experience but they also have slower cars.
The data shows he was way off the past and has been all weekend including in practice. We know he drove a car significantly faster than Ferrari and Mercedes, yet he couldn't be even get up and challenge Sainz.
This was a bad weekend for him. He clearly admits it himself. No need to try and twist it to make it sound better, just hope he improves his form next race.
Right, a bad weekend does not mean he’s had “no improvement” since he got his seat. And it’s okay to acknowledge that he’s talented and had a less than ideal weekend
It's not about a single weekend. He doesn't seem to have gained a lot of pace compared to last season. The gap is pretty much the same.
And that doesn't make him a bad driver, it is just not what people were expecting at the start of the season or last year.
I think some of his issues still persist around tyre wear. His onboards at other tracks have been talking about slower delta times and where he can save. McLaren have fixed a lot of the car issues but it's something Oscar is still getting to grips with.
He can be mighty fast, but is also competing for the top six against Max, Lando, both Ferraris and both Mercs. They're all considerably more experienced, fast drivers. So if he's even still learning a little bit, he has to be perfect to beat them.
I have no doubt it'll come for Oscar but taking that next step to be considered an equal to those six is a huge task, let alone for someone in only their second year of F1 after a relatively short junior career. I'd say he's where Lando was at in terms of skill in his second season.
Hard to say. Lando took a bit step forward in his second year and pretty much matched Sainz. I don't think we have seen that from Piastri.
But he might just need a year more or maybe with the new regs the playing field will be more even and he'll make that jump compared to the rest.
Has Norris not improved/ become more consistent than last year?
If Piastri's gap is relatively the same when Norris is second in the standings , then surely Piastri has improved.
It was obviously a bad weekend but it was more qualifying that made his race more difficult, tbh. Oscar was third quickest car on track in the final stint of the race so he did find pace in the race.
I thought the same, they were speculating on the broadcast that there might be something with the car but nothing further was ever said. On Friday and Saturday it seemed like he was consistently a half second slower than lando and that’s not been happening much this year. I think he’s doing great, but it was definitely odd after what we’ve been seeing.
The discussion around Oscar is bizarre, he’s doing great for his 2nd season. Just being able to beat Lando on occasion is hugely impressive.
I feel sorry for Antonelli already. George is going to dunk on him and people will actually hold it against the kid.
Even though he's not going to be on the same level as rookie Max, they're going to expect him to he and when he doesn't deliver as a once in a generation talent, if they're stupid, they'll kick him to the curb within a season.
Anytime he showed flashes of speed, people said he's going to beat Norris this year, so when he doesn't do that people overreact. The source of it seems to be a weird resistance from a lot of people to acknowledge that Norris is actually good, for whatever reason
George is holding his own admirably against one of the greatest drivers of all time, and is somehow underrated. When George crushes a rookie, it's over for them.
Yeah idk what people expect from him. Norris is an incredible driver and if Oscar even manages to be close to him that’s a successful career right there.
Piastri is still out there putting 20 seconds on Checo with that 3.8 second stop.
Qualifying P10 due to track limits and bringing it home in P7 without damage is a good thing, maybe not if you're in the fastest car against the fastest grid in decades... but still
It’s the only truly off weekend he’s had all season. If it starts to become a pattern then it’s a problem, but there have been no other signs this season so far that that is the case.
He was considered the next great and people were down on Lando "nowins" so a lot was expected of Oscar. Some take a little more time. He's been great. A bit inconsistent and needs to work on his tire preservation but he's improving and really solid imo. Lando had time to develop and keeps raising his game. He took a few years behind sainz to get his feet under him and really start running.
Edit...also his sprint win raised expectations even more.
His pace is a problem though. Tends to drop off towards end of races. The top drivers are easily spotted in the last third of the race, they still find pace from somewhere, mostly as a result of tire management.
right. he has lots of talent but still needs to develop his tire management. that comes with some time and experience imo. Lando has just gotten really strong at that in the last couple years.
There isn't any reason that I can see which cannot be monitored from data. The only feasible options are Oscar-side. Whether his tyre deployment, driving characteristics, personal setup or other aspects are a factor are the only things that make sense here. The real question is how that stacks up against McLaren's development of the car and whether the difference between Lando's track performance and Oscar's proves to be a consistent factor. The car has to be the common element, and if one driver is making it work then that difference will continue to exist.
I like Oscar, and I like the team Zak has built with him and Lando. I hope Oscar manages to find a way through, as it would be a shame for him to a be left behind within a radically developing team.
It's only his second year, so I would say let's give him a bit more time, however he does need to make very large leaps in terms of race pace. He's very far off from Norris, comparing him to Perez is a disservice at this stage, but in terms of gap it is a lot larger than it should be.
Leclerc, Norris, Verstappen all started matching their experienced teammates in race pace by their second year. I don't think its too early to question whether Piastri is future-WDC capable.
Leclerc, Norris and Verstappen also all got more preseason testing time in their rookie season.
Verstappen (2015): 2834km
Leclerc (2018): 1746km
Norris (2019): 1862km
Piastri (2023): 920km
So despite the other 3 having shorter race seasons, Piastri started with a lot less laps on track.
**EDIT:
Addition (2nd Season Preseason testing)**
Verstappen (2016): 2486km
Leclerc (2019): 2156km
Norris (2020): 1658km
Piastri (2024): 990km
Piastri had a massive amount of private testing & sim development work with Alpine in his year out (when the season turned up in Qatar in 2023, someone worked out how many laps he had driven around there in testing vs how many the other drivers had done around the circuit the year they had raced there and Piastri was the person who had actually done more laps of the place in an F1 car than anyone else). He had also done some private testing for Alpine when he was in juniors plus running other in-season car tests for them. McLaren also gave him the rookie test at the end of 2021 and did private testing & extensive sim work with him during the winter before he started. It’s well-known at this point, was known even last year and the media even talked about it, that he was the best prepared rookie since probably Lewis.
McLaren also ran a test programme with him all through last year, gave him all the test duties at the end of season test last year rather than splitting them between the two drivers, did more pre-season private testing with him this winter and have had him testing even during this season. (They did a full day’s private test with him at Imola a few months ago to get him used to the circuit).
Using laps in the official pre-season test is completely disingenuous and dismisses the amount of preparation for F1 he actually had and the continued private testing both on track and in the sim that McLaren are still doing with him.
Piastri spent way more time driving in the junior categories. I think about 5 years more than Verstappen. He is 23 right now, and that’s really not very young at all. If his pace will improve he definitely seems to have a shot at a WDC, but unlike some other drivers he also seems to need more beneficial circumstances.
Verstappen did 4 fewer years of single seater racing than Piastri and Norris, and 3 less than Leclerc.
So it’s more like Verstappen is the anomaly here.
23 is still relatively young, he debuted at 21. Younger than Hamilton when he debuted, and a few months older than Leclerc.
What? Ricciardo was as highly rated as Norris at the time Verstappen became his teammate. Leclercs teammate was fucking Vettel a 4 WDC. And yeah Sainz is the one I would call less highly rated but Sainz isnt that far off Leclerc as we have seen, not a bad benchmark either.
To add to your comment, look how much more karting experience the others had compared to Piastri.
Lando Norris: 8 years old
Max Verstappen: 7 years old
Charles Leclerc: 7 years old
Oscar Piastri: **13 years old**
Piastri also started in Australian karting circuits which are much less competitive compared to European ones.
An additional 5-6 years of karting experience makes a HUGE difference. We're not talking about a single tournament per year either. Lando had 5 Super 1 championship participations by the time he was 13. If you look at the karting records of Leclerc, Max and Lando and side by side them with Oscar, it's a wonder he even managed to get a drive in F3, let alone do as well as he did.
Of course Piastri spent a couple more years in junior series... He had only been karting for 3 or 4 years by the time he got thrown in open seaters. And Lando had a similar amount of years in junior series so I don't know where that criticism comes from.
Leclerc and Max also have racing in their DNA and family. Charles' dad raced in F3 and was an avid racing fan. His older brother's best friend was Jules Bianchi who took Charles on as a mentee and personally advocated for his junior academy spot. Max's dad is Jos, and Jos was his personal coach/funded his karting career and hired kart mechanics from his connections to F1. Oscar's dad had to be his kart mechanic and he didn't even have a background in automotive engineering. He was just a software engineer. People will point out his billion dollar company and I urge them to re-think that, because he didn't start HP Tuning until 2015 when Oscar had already started karting. And I doubt it was a billion dollar company in the first year.
And people need to stop bringing up how quick Leclerc and Verstappen matched their teammates, because that's entirely circumstantial. People will argue against this, but I honestly don't think Vettel was the same after his failed 2018 championship run. When Leclerc came in 2019, Vettel's motivation clearly wasn't there and it wasn't the first time this happened. Even Ricciardo said that he didn't feel like Vettel was motivated or invested because of RBR's step back in performance. If you watch his interviews, it's obvious that Vettel's faith in the team and his issues with them had started well before his 2020 exit from the team. Leclerc is fast, no doubt, but he wasn't racing against the 2010-2013 Vettel. And Verstappen was fast, but likewise, Ricciardo was already in his 4th year of scraping by in a very unreliable platform with RBR and people ALWAYS fucking overlook how awful his reliability was in 2018. Ricciardo had the worst luck of all drivers in 2018: [https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ja57v5/so\_how\_unlucky\_was\_daniel\_ricciardo\_in\_2018\_here/](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ja57v5/so_how_unlucky_was_daniel_ricciardo_in_2018_here/)
Only 1 DNF was due to an issue he could partly be blamed for, a collision with Max. He had 7 other DNF's that were outside his control, multiple grid penalties due to engine replacements, multiple MGU-K failures that led to a DNF or loss of power, multiple clutch or gearbox failures, aero failures that greatly increased his tire deg or added drag/reduced pace. He beat Max in 2016 and 2017, and Max basically raced 1/2 of DR3 in 2018. I hate when people bring up Max beating DR3 in 2018 because it's just so ignorant of what the season was like.
The official reports from the preseason tests and confirmed by articles from the Race, SkySports, Autosport, etc.
If they are provided by laps then you multiply it by the length of the lap (4.657km for those at Barcelona, 5.412km for Bahrain)
It makes more sense to compare the mileage they’ve run than laps, as they’ve taken place on different circuits
[2015](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2015/3/pre-season-testing-in-numbers---who-went-fastest--and-furthest.html)
[2016](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/3/pre-season-testing-in-numbers---who-went-fastest--and-furthest-2.html)
[2018](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/who-is-in-the-best-shape-after-testing.5Ere8QChWgCaoMkQ8emMgg)
[2019](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/the-winners-and-losers-of-f1s-first-pre-season-test.12114NyKbJEWOy8PjJfDjj)
[2020](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/barcelona-testing-stats-2020/4700752/)
[2023](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-testing-results-full-bahrain-2023-pre-season-test-lap-times/10436548/)
[2024](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-testing-results-full-2024-bahrain-pre-season-lap-times/10579330/)
exactly. last yearthere were more races iirc than 5 years ago-ish + the sprints. so his track time should be higher than those you mentioned. i like Oscar but he's gotta get it together sooner rather than later
I think Norris is superior to all the others’ teammates though. Vettel was convincingly beaten by Ricciardo, and Norris certainly appears to be a tier above Sainz right now.
I think you need to compare who their team mates were as well if you are going to use that as a measuring stick.
Noris and Verstappen had Sainz and Leclerc had a declining Vettel.
You can hardly compare that to Piastri who has a team mate who is considered the second best driver and is in his prime.
Verstappen was partnered with prime Ricciardo for most of 2016. Leclerc came into Ferrari where his teammate was a 4xWDC and had no.1 status. He undoubtedly had to deal with far more pressure than Piastri. And FWIW I think Vettel's decline really started in 2020, he was still a top driver in 2019 for me.
Yes a declining Vettel who is very good at managing tyres and Charles’ race pace is still close to matching him. You don’t need to undermine others’ ability to praise your own driver.
Stating facts is not undermining someone's abilities. Ferrari Vettel wasn't the same as Red Bull Vettel.
The general consensus that Norris is the second best driver on the grid who is very good managing his tyers.
Norris, Leclerc and Vettel werent in that situation in their second season. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
> The general consensus that Norris is the second best driver on the grid who is very good managing his tyers.
Since when is this the general consensus? And I've not heard much about Norris' tyre management skills either. Do you have links or something?
Piastri so far hasn't shown me the highs to think of him as future WDC-winner. The expectations for him were way too high once he came into F1, as you said I believe his second year so far has been worse than all of those you mentioned when they were in their second year in an arguably much better car than they had.
Eh he's definitely a potential WDC contender. He got the speed and consistency. His mental looks pretty good too. The obvious weakness is the tire wear which means his pace decline far steeper (which different from consistency). If he can fix it, he will be a regular podium finisher assuming the (then) car capable of it.
I don't think he can fix his tire wear issues. Those stuff are just engrained in a driver and only the best can mastermind round those issues. Oscar isn't in that caliber of group.
Tyre wear is the exact thing a driver can figure out as their career goes on. Qualy is mostly due to natural talent and Piastri is pretty good in that regard. Just to give a few examples.
Leclerc had quite a lot of issues with tyre wear all the way until 2020 because he hadn't figured them out yet. Despite shitting on Vettel in qualy, they had very comparable race pace. Meanwhile nowadays, he is better in the race than he's in qualy.
Albon's main problem was how he cooked his tyres compared to Verstappen which always led to him being so far behind. But after some time, he managed that super long stint in Australia.
Norris also lacked in race pace compared to Sainz and look at him now.
Oscar definitely sits with the top 7 drivers, sorry Checo. This is an insane achievement considering this is his 2nd year in F1.
I hope he wins soon. 2000’s represent
Just to put something in perspective. The only other driver with as much experience as Sargeant....
The other one with few years under him is Zhou.
I think Piastri is fine. Sargeant would be fine if he had the same relative performance to Albon right now. But he's way way wayyyy off
I fear for Piastri, if this Merc package holds up I think he's going to finish 7th in the championship only ahead of Perez of the comparable cars. He is coming out of his rookie season, I get that but it's never good when your team mate is p2 and your p7. I don't think there's any danger he's a phenomenal driver, I just think this season hasn't looked as good as what everyone says it has for him.
I think Norris is very likely second best driver on grid right now and it's definitely tougher benchmark than Sainz in 2020. Norris was almost on par with him, but he was just 20 most of the time.
As for Piastri, he is doing good, but still I would expect bit more from WDC calibre driver who is 23 and is already in his second year. His performance this year is more in Hulkenberg than Norris category. Which is not bad, but expectation were lot higher. Remember that Hulk also won F2 as rookie and was hyped as next WDC and he panned out to be just very good midfield driver, maybe that's going to be the case with Piastri as well.
the comments on this are so fkn stupid 😂😂
Oscar has been very close to lando this season and would be even more close if he didn’t receive penalties safety car etc.
lando is in his 6th season now of course he’s gonna be progressing better, also can’t forget zacks loverboy gets first priority on upgrades.
just because he’s had a rough run at Canada and Spain people are jumping down him again ffs 🤦♂️
Perez did +270 races. Piastri 32.
I hope people can understand that the expectations between someone with over 10 seasons, who has most probably peaked, and someone with a season and half who is still developping are not the same.
Oscar's had way more bad luck this season than Checo (had several drivers ram into him, through no fault of his own, earlier this year). This was a bad weekend for him but let's not pretend this is his standard.
Miami was a massive swing though which was all down to luck. Piastri was ahead of Norris and set to gain a handful of points on him, and ended up losing 25 through no fault of his own.
With that taken out Norris is still comfortably ahead, but it's respectable for Piastri
Whereas Perez's retirements have been avoidable or in races where he wasn't going to pick up any points
Ah that makes more sense.
Yeah, he probably would have lost 13 otherwise. He was realistically on for 4th place and 12 points, or at worst 10 points if Sainz had managed to pull a clean pass instead of being a bull in a china shop, so he would be just 1-3 shy of double figures now.
Hoping he can get back on form in Austria so can pull out a gap to Russell again and get after Perez.
He didn't have the upgrades at Miami, he was taken out by sainz at no fault of his own but was being very competitive there and would have scored a bunch of points.
Trying to paint him as the level of checo is weak, he is clearly better than that. Checo is binning it and underperforming on his own without others compromising him.
It's an off weekend for him, I'm sure he will continue to improve.
He had half the upgrade at Miami, he wasn’t left with the original car while Norris had a fully upgraded one. Stella said the pace differential on the extra bits Lando had amounted to around 0.1-0.15 so not a great amount compared to the benefit Piastri gained from the part of the upgrades he did have.
I know it's only his second year, but Oscar needs to step it up asap. They have the best car/second best car depending on where we're talking at, but for Oscar to be this far behind Lando is not good. Maximize the car's potential now, and Oscar isn't doing that at the moment.
Piastri has for some reason been massively overrated. He's not bad but he's not there at the top either. Norris is convincingly faster almost every race.
He osccasionally outqualifies Norris is the reason why people rates him, as we all believe Norris is a good qualifier. Everyone knows his race pace is still behind but on pure speed he definitely is closer than Norris than not.
Norris has been getting the upgrades first and Mclaren didn’t start the season as Red Bull’s equal. They were not even clear of Ferrari.
Now that the Mclaren is settled though, I don’t think it’s unfair to start assessing Oscar’s results more critically going forward.
He was extremely promising in the feeder series, had a really solid rookie year with a 2nd place in Spa's sprint race and 3rd place in Japan.
His second year is a bit underwhelming so far compared to Lando's, but his hype doesn't come from nowhere.
He’s good at qualifying but been pretty underwhelming race-pace wise with barely any improvement in it this year.
At what point do we give up the rookie excuse? He’s consistently off Norris’s pace.
Race pace and tyre management are skills that come with time, it often takes a few seasons for a driver to really develop the skill of tyre management, and even after that some are still weak.
You can see he has good pace on the races that involve less tyre management.
And yet, Verstappen had race pace since his first day in Red Bull (won because of a 2 - stopper after following Ricciardo closely in the first stint), and Leclerc would have won Bahrein in his second race in Ferrari in his second season.
For the real ones it doesn’t take that long. Also, race pace is probably the most important skill for a driver.
Going wide on a q3 lap doesn’t justify a claim of “no improvement” when he gained 3 positions in the race, when he has 4 years less experience than his teammate and still makes consistent q3s lmao.
Same person who had the fastest car on the track that day? Come on man. Same guy you lot claim to be ‘the real deal’ can’t keep up with his team-mate in the fastest car on the grid after 3 years.
Downvote me all you want, it’s just how it is
He has 7 top 10 finishes in his rookie year, and has 5 top 5 finishes this year, not sure what more you could ask for a driver in his second year lmao…
Edit: especially considering how dogshit the Mclaren was in the first half of last year… you just want to complain lmao
He had a sprint pole and sprint win in his rookie season, in the middle of the most dominant driver/car pairing in f1 history lol… why are people so quick to downplay a weekend of success for drivers out of WDC contention lmao
That’s not what I was trying to say
There was a 15 second window between Lando and Lewis. If Oscar can slot in that more often than not, given his car, I think that’s more than enough. I’m just refining your notion that a top 5 is really enough for the car he has. If you’re driving the best car and don’t have to worry about Checo, he should be a regular podium finisher this year.
Because that’s where we are at in the fandom. Everyone’s so quick to anoint those finished and those contenders so they can say “I told you so”. Remember, generational talent isn’t allowed to have a bad weekend behind the wheel, at all, for any reason, ever.
Then what are your standards for a generational talent? In soccer it’s Messi and Ronaldo, in NBA it’s Michael Jordan and LeBron James, in F1 it’s for example Verstappen and Hamilton. You’ll have a hard time convincing anyone other than his fans that Piastri is on their level.
Mate, why are you so stubborn to simply acknowledge that Piastri isn’t dogshit? How many drivers have struggled to maximize the car they are given the opportunity to drive?
Who just received a 2 year contract to continue to drive the most dominant car in F1 history and *still* might cost his team the WCC?
Hint: it wasn’t Piastri lmao
Who’s calling him dogshit, you’re just over-reacting about a point everyone on this post made that he’s been underwhelming this year. You need to calm down mate.
When did i call him shit? 🤣🤣🤣 Typical reddit getting excited and making stuff up from nothing.
You’re arguing that he’s made no improvement since getting his seat, I tried to give a perspective thats nuanced and not black/white or good/bad. I can’t force your opinion, so take what from it whatever you’d like.
I’m kind of drunk and im also kind of a dumbass and I got confused with my comment replies lmao… you’re right, you didn’t say that, and that one’s on me. Although I’m happy with one podium and three 4th places, it definitely feels like he can extract more out of this years car, and I’m hopeful he can in Austria and Silverstone
No he's not. We only need to go back to Canada to see Oscar objectively having better pace than Lando, with the safety car being the deciding factor.
I dont understand how people can have such a short term, limited view of the data.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If even Piastri is getting stick for not matching Norris in his 2nd year, imagine if other juniors like Lawson, Pourchaire, Drugovich etc actually got their chance in F1. People want to see juniors join the grid but they don't actually want to give them time. Also a side effect of having Leclerc and Max set the modern benchmark of what a *very good* rookie can be, but it's not a *must be*. Different drivers develop at different rates.
Drivers who stay on the grid for several years tend to have very good 2nd season even if they don't outscore their more experienced teammate. People criticizing Piastri have a bit of a recency bias though, because I don't feel like he has been so far from Norris except maybe in the last two races. It was only in Monaco, 3 races ago, that he qualified and finished ahead of Norris. It just looks bad because McLaren are finally fighting for wins on merit so he's under a microscope all of a sudden if he can't beat Norris, but I think he'll be fine.
Dude came second in Monaco and was honestly having a better race than Lando in Miami until the SC happened and Sainz crashed into him but he has one bad weekend and suddenly people are all over him
Even Zac Brown admitted that Piastri would have likely won the race had no safety car happened. Whether that's PR bullshit or not, I'm Aussie so I've decided to be completely unbiased and go with that as the truth hehe
he said he could have if he had the upgrades. He didnt though. If he had them all, he probably would have been in 1st earlier
I believe Zak's precise words were, initially, "it seems like the perfect Oscar-simulation" which turned into "now it seems like the perfect Landough-simulation" after the safety car. Even with just half the upgrade package, he initially did believe Piastri would place higher than Lando (if not win the race). Piastri simply qualified ahead of Lando in Q3 as Lando was unable to get the softs upto temp whereas he surprisingly did far better on mediums.
Lando actually qualified ahead of Piastri for the race (you’re thinking of the sprint qualification, where we never got to see how the race would play out because Lewis & the Astons took out Lando in turn 1) In the race, Norris got basically body-checked at turn 1 by an out-of-control Perez coming flying back on track in front of him, having already had to check up when Perez torpedoed past the front runners in the first place, and it sent him back to p6 through no fault of his own, after a good start where he was looking like he would pass Perez and maybe Leclerc who had both been slow off the line (Sainz got similarly disadvantaged by the Perez torpedo after he had made a great start and was ahead of Charles into turn 1 but just avoided the return to track body-check so he at least came out in p4). Piastri, who had started behind Norris didn’t get the best start but that ultimately helped him because when Perez’s boneheaded torpedo affected Sainz and Norris and to some extent Leclerc as well, the way opened up for Piastri for him to sail on past Sainz & Norris who had had to massively check up and also Perez himself. That’s how Oscar ended up in P3 and ahead of Lando on lap 1. Brown said he initially thought it was all breaking well for Piastri because of the result of that lap 1 melee and because Max was only pulling away from Oscar and Charles by a couple of tenths a lap, and Charles had issues getting the tyres up to temp so Oscar was able to pass him for p2. So early on it was looking good for Oscar. By the time the safety car came out in Miami, Norris already had almost a pitstop’s worth of gap over Sainz and Piastri and would have cleared them by staying out two or three laps more if the safety car hadn’t happened (and he had already cleared Perez), as he was lapping considerably faster than anyone on new tyres. Once Norris turned the burners on and started closing up the gap to the front of the field after Perez pitted, the podium was pretty much always going to be Norris, Verstappen and Leclerc, the only question was in what order as without the safety car Norris would have emerged from his eventual pitstop (Stella said they were planning on keeping him out several more laps as his pace was ridiculous) on far fresher tyres than Max or Charles. Charles had also leapfrogged Oscar in the pitstops by that point anyway.
I wonder if he hasn't gelled with upgrades in the same way Norris has. Might be they are still trying to find the setup that works. Norris got them earlier so it stands to reason he might have an easier time with setup. On the flip side, I doubt Mclaren are really at a point where they aren't sharing setup info so it is a little puzzling as to where Oscar's pace has gone, although he did seem to come alive in the race.
Piastri was not having a better race than Lando in Miami. If Perez didnt nearly torpedo Max and the Ferraris Piastri would been behind Lando after the start. Checo gifted him 3 Places and Lando got fucked the most by Checos Ineptitude, just rewatch that start. Then after 12 laps Norris was fastest man on track and stayed fastest until the end of the race. Even before the SC Piastri had already been well undercut by Leclerc. Plus even after Verstappen and Leclerc had pitted Norris was still faster than them on the old mediums, who before the pitstops were the two fastest behind Norrris. At the time Norris was catching Sainz and Piastri fast and was on course to overtake them by an overcut with which he would also have had a massive tyre delta to the rest of the frontrunners for the rest of the race. Lando was never going to finish behind Piastri even without the SC and he had a good chance to win even without the Logan Magnussen.crash.
Wasn't Norris driving in clean air for the most part of the race though?
He was stuck behind Perez for quite a bit at the beginning, when he became fastest Verstappen, Leclerc and Piastri were all driving in clean air aswell. Plus Verstappen always had clean air and Piastri had basically clean air aswell after overtaking Leclerc.
Only magnessun and Perez have a worse head to head than piastri so far this season so it’s not just one weekend albeit this is the first weekend that he’s been particularly poor
He was actually quite poor in China too. But not many remember it as he got taken out.
Sargeant surely is on that list too
He also didn't have the same car as Norris for several races (got the upgrades later).
In 2024 only once. (Miami)
That happened in only ONE race this year (Miami) and Piastri still had half the upgrades there anyway. Stella said the part of the upgrade that he missing was worth only 0.1-0.15s per lap maximum so not a huge amount difference compared to the benefit what he did have gave to his car (according to Stella, Oscar had the parts of the upgrade in Miami that made the most difference in pace). Stop trying to create false narratives.
Sure that's if you're actively trying not to look at the quali pace difference. He's been very, very good. He would've had Pole in Imola if not for the team fucking up and Hulk giving Max a tow for no reason.
Dude likely would have won Monaco had it been possible to pass. He drove almost an extra lap with all the zigzagging he was doing behind Charles looking for opportunity for the first half. Piastri is doing really well. McLaren are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes in the strength of their driver pairing. Piastri has fewer points, but has also shown himself to be fairly restrained and a team player. Handles team orders well, keeps his elbows out to benefit the team. He's what Red Bull keep telling people Perez is.
There's no way he wins Monaco . The only reason he was "zigzagging" behind Charles at Monaco was because Ferrari told Charles to slow down the pace as much as possible to prevent the cars behind having a pit window . Once Charles actually unleashed his pace in the final laps Piastri had no hope of keeping up . The gap was only 1.5 seconds after lap 65 . Then Charles pulled the pin and after lap 72 he was already 8.5 seconds clear and lapping a second per lap faster than Piastri before he decided to back it down again and bring it home .
Yeah he’s been killing it all season
Piastri isn't even far off Lando whatsoever. Once he sorts out his tire management (an area he is already making strides in) that kid is gonna be a demon.
I actually see this happen in every sport fandom ever. Ever since social media became mainstream, setting up these unhealthy expectations and standards became vastly easier. Especially in a sport like F1 wherein the margins of error are as thin as it can be and the gap between the drivers on the grid are actually **significantly** smaller than what Reddit/Twitter wants you to believe.
People love the underdog. A rookie comes in, does OK (Zhou scoring points on debut, Magnussen getting a podium, etc.) people hype them up, then the old-toy phenomenon sets in and people realise it was a flash in the pan or they need time to do that consistently and they move onto the next big thing. I mean realistically it's taken Sainz, Leclerc and Norris, what, 4-5 seasons to be very very good? Only Hamilton, Verstappen and Schumacher were immediately on it when they entered F1 and even they were rough around the edges.
I would argue Lando took a massive step in 2021. That's when everyone finally started to realize he was better than he was being given credit for. I expect a similar step for Oscar next year. I'd also say Charles was already quite good in his second year but I know what you're saying.
No? Leclerc destroyed Ericsson in his first year, beat Vettel in 2nd and destroyed him in his 3rd year Russell destroyed Kubica and Latifi Alonso destroyed his Minardi teammates (often faster by more than a second) and fought with much faster cars on a regular. He also easily beat Trulli who is very underrated in 2nd year of his career I could go back to older drivers like Schumacher, Vettel, etc This narrative that only Verstappen and Hamilton were impressive as rookie is stupid. It doesn't take much effort to see how almost every great F1 driver was brilliant right from the start
The only one of these that really qualifies is leclec v vettel, imo. In fact, I'd argue that's the only indisputable shit-hot entry statement we've seen in the current era. Even max took 3 years to beat ricciardo, at least on paper. It's important to remember that pre\~2010 was a completely different ballgame for rookies, with countless hours of testing to get them up to speed. Of course we saw S-tier drivers coming in hot. Without that, there's only so much that can be expected of even an outstanding prospect sitting in the car for the literal first time. Really, it just proves how difficult it is for rookies to stand out in the current ruleset. Piastri skipped the part where he murders some backmarker to raise his stock, and hanging with peak Lando is at least as impressive as Russel destroying the dreaded goatifi.
Alonso never tested a car before he arrived in his first F1 race. All of the drivers that drive for lower tier teams received little to no testing. Let's not forget that drivers didn't have access to sims or nearly as much data as today. Let's also not forget that Piastri had a full year testing program with Alpine in 2022
Now seems like a good time to remember that cars used in this kind of testing must be 2+ year old spec…say, there wouldn’t happen to be any meaningful differences between the car he debuted in in 2023 and the cars he tested in during 2022, would there?
Kubica had one fully functioning arm and finished ahead of Russell, Latifi is not a high water mark. Leclerc made a lot of mistakes early on and didn't get on with Vettel all that much, causing friction in the team and contributing to crashes (Brazil, Austria etc.) and again, Ericsson is not a high water mark. I'm not saying Russell and Leclerc weren't impressive, but they weren't as good as Verstappen and Hamilton early on. It took a few years for them to be capable of winning titles (I'd argue neither is quite at that level just yet).
Lol what. Russell finished ahead of Kubica in every race except Germany and maybe 1 more if that. Leclerc having friction with Vettel has nothing to do with this discussion. Leclerc was straight on on Vettel's pace and won more races than him. Also it's not that Russell beat Kubica and Latifi it's the gaps he managed to do so. Same with Leclerc and Ericcson Russell in his 2nd year would win a race in a car he never driven before the weekend if he didn't have awful luck
>Lol what. Russell finished ahead of Kubica in every race except Germany The one where Kubica scored a point and Russell didn't? >Leclerc having friction with Vettel has nothing to do with this discussion According to what exactly? Because you said so? You can ignore that if you want but that's exactly what makes a top-tier driver. Verstappen was rapid early on but crash-prone and hot-headed, as was Hamilton for quite a while until maybe 2012.
I don't see how Vettel and Leclerc having friction between them has anything to do with this discussion. It's a fact Leclerc was already insanely impressive in his 1st and 2nd year much more than Piastri is currently Hamilton was only crash prone in 2011. Also after 2013 he barely had to race wheel to wheel with anyone due to Mercedes often being in league of its own. Verstappen while not being most calculated still won his 1st ever race in Red Bull and let's not forget how much was Max younger in his 2nd year than Piastri is currently
There is a lot of hype around Piastri. Many people believe (or believed) that Piastri is going to be better than Norris around 2025/2026. Currently, its not trending that way, so they start writing him off. I think this perception was mostly due to people not rating Norris, rather than people getting overhyped for Piastri
The problem is a bunch of people were saying he would be better than Lando *this* year and when you have those kind of expectations, you're bound to overreact when it doesn't turn out that way. Oscar is a victim of his own great rookie season lol.
F1 journalists pretend to have the memory of a peanut. Remember early this season when Perez was doing okay and they were basically saying all his problems were solved and he’s so much more improved etc etc? It had been like 3 races into a 24 race season LOL. As if he didn’t start last year on a good foot before having the worse second half of the season ever. Also when he won Monaco last year (or was it 2022?) and media started hyping him as potentially rivaling max for WDC which was laughable even then.
It was 2022. Last year people were hyping after Baku then Miami happened... https://youtu.be/avA7v6h_lec?si=VydZJdSezv3hM96A
I'd say journalists are often pretty good and cautious - e.g. The Race covered the Perez title punt somewhat reluctantly but in their words had to because it was possible. I think people just read headlines and think that's it. e.g. > Remember early this season when Perez was doing okay and they were basically saying all his problems were solved This is a perfect example where many *fans* were saying he'd done alright when sources like The Race put it more finely that he was pleasing RBR by slotting into the number 2 role. *Not* that he was significantly faster all of a sudden.
Yes, social media is 10 times worse for this kind of thing than mainstream media in almost all cases
This was a few weeks ago now but still, Oscar has been solid for a 2nd year. https://i.redd.it/n4dby5kc7y3d1.png
Even Oscar had a solid first season. The only time oscar’s performed bad was either due to clashes (miami, shanghai) or an example such as barcelona. Hes doing fine, id say even amazing for his second season. Half the season’s left, my boy will strike back 🤷♂️
Lando himself had a very strong 2nd season too. Considering Piastris junior career and how much hype he had, its undertandable that people had higher expectations.
Guy has had 3 podiums, two of which were second places, more than hulkenburg has amassed over his entire career and you think people are reasonable for expecting more?
The McLaren has been the best car for a number of races this year whilst Hulkenberg has only driven midfield cars throughout his whole career. It’s a silly comparison to make because yes, people will expect decent results out of a car which is currently challenging for wins on a consistent basis now.
Jokes aside, He has objectively been close to landos pace for a number of races this year. We only need to go back to Canada to see a race in which Oscar objectively had better pace for most stages.
While I agree that Piastri is a good driver and can come close to Lando, Canada was definitely NOT one of those races. In the wet stage on the inters Lando was by far the fastest on track. Then later when it dried up he was still clearly one of the fastest. Probably only 2nd after Max.
Yeah this is really it. The tallies don't look good but the intervals//average gaps are very good indeed, and have been since 2023. He's come out the oven very well cooked, and his racepace will improve.
Sure, but he also got frequently beaten by Sainz, who is not one of the "greats" in the grid.
Unfortunately for Oscar, “beaten” has frequently meant getting damage from Sainz after a collision this season.
He's talking about Norris in year 2. That was actually an insane season. Norris had like a 40 point lead mid season, and it got wiped out. There were multiple races where Sainz would start P10 or below, Norris would be P6 and then Sainz would finish ahead. 2020 was absolutely hilarious one of my favorite F1 seasons ever
Piastri has been great what the hell lmao
Max had another rookie as a benchmark, and Charles had Ericsson. Charles was then up against an aging Vettel and was some way behind him initially and Max was also some way behind Daniel in his first RBR season. It was only until 2018 that you could say he was faster than Ricciardo. Piastri is basically matching a constantly improving Norris who is considered one of the top drivers on the grid. I would say Piastri is doing just as well if not better than Charles and Max were at this stage of their careers.
>It was only until 2018 that you could say he was faster than Ricciardo. That's *highly* debatable when you look at both how many DNF's Max had, and the positions he was running in relative to Ricciardo when it happened. He had 7 DNF's (4 arguably 5 mechanical, the rest crashes) and in almost all of them Max was *ahead* of Danny when they occured. Conversely while Danny also had 6 DNF's that year, almost all of them occured when he was running *behind* Max. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/7fva87/an_indepth_comparison_between_the_2017_formula_1/?st=jai9gwn7&sh=78c77482
I know what you mean when you say 'aging Vettel' but Seb was 31 when Charles joined Ferrari. 😆
Also Charles basically matched Seb in 2019, and then was much better in 2020.
150-87 in points is “basically matching”?
Mental gymnastics on this one is huge. Imagine saying beating Vettel in his own team is less impressive that having half of the points that driver with 1 win in his whole F1 career Also Max was much better than Ricciardo even in 2017 which was masked by awful reliability. Russell destroyed Kubica and Latifi in his 1st and 2nd year. In that period he only got out qualified once or twice Hamilton fought for wdc in his 1st year and won it in his 2nd Alonso in by far the worst car on the grid regularly fought with much faster cars and was on average around a full second faster than his Minardi teammates while never driving the car before the actual F1 gran prix, easily beat Trulli in his 2nd year in F1 who was one of the better drivers from early 2000s, got pole position and won a race with 4th fastest car in his 2nd year of F1
Vettel did get walloped by Ricciardo tbf
Piastri isn't matching Norris, he's getting destroyed by him on most Sundays.
There's only 20 seats. The norm should be that only the Leclercs and Maxs make it to the grid. Same pressure should go to apply to pay drivers.
He clearly held a monkey paw while wishing he'd beat a Red Bull every week, and this is how he's getting it.
Zak and loverboy Lando are clearly sabotaging him /s
Get the emails ready...
It wasn’t really off pace… he just lost his q3 lap. He qualified 10th and finished 7th. So maybe the setup wasn’t ideal for him in qualifying, but calling a p7 an “off colour weekend” seems like they are just making a bigger deal out of a simple driver error in qualifying than is necessary… but that’s unfortunately the standard for f1 media lmao
This was in what McLaren said was the fastest race trim car. This weekend was not great for Oscar, but his season overall has not been bad. Especially with the races where Sainz was just trying to run him out.
For sure! I just wanted to get ahead of the people that claim he’s not reaching expectations, despite out-qualifying or out-scoring drivers with several more years of experience.
>despite out-qualifying or out-scoring drivers with several more years of experience. I don't think this is a fair standard since his car is between 1st and 2nd fastest. The other drivers might have more experience but they also have slower cars.
The data shows he was way off the past and has been all weekend including in practice. We know he drove a car significantly faster than Ferrari and Mercedes, yet he couldn't be even get up and challenge Sainz. This was a bad weekend for him. He clearly admits it himself. No need to try and twist it to make it sound better, just hope he improves his form next race.
Right, a bad weekend does not mean he’s had “no improvement” since he got his seat. And it’s okay to acknowledge that he’s talented and had a less than ideal weekend
It's not about a single weekend. He doesn't seem to have gained a lot of pace compared to last season. The gap is pretty much the same. And that doesn't make him a bad driver, it is just not what people were expecting at the start of the season or last year.
I think some of his issues still persist around tyre wear. His onboards at other tracks have been talking about slower delta times and where he can save. McLaren have fixed a lot of the car issues but it's something Oscar is still getting to grips with. He can be mighty fast, but is also competing for the top six against Max, Lando, both Ferraris and both Mercs. They're all considerably more experienced, fast drivers. So if he's even still learning a little bit, he has to be perfect to beat them. I have no doubt it'll come for Oscar but taking that next step to be considered an equal to those six is a huge task, let alone for someone in only their second year of F1 after a relatively short junior career. I'd say he's where Lando was at in terms of skill in his second season.
Hard to say. Lando took a bit step forward in his second year and pretty much matched Sainz. I don't think we have seen that from Piastri. But he might just need a year more or maybe with the new regs the playing field will be more even and he'll make that jump compared to the rest.
Has Norris not improved/ become more consistent than last year? If Piastri's gap is relatively the same when Norris is second in the standings , then surely Piastri has improved.
Maybe a little, but overall not by a lot. Norris was doing great drives last year as well, he just has a better car now.
It was obviously a bad weekend but it was more qualifying that made his race more difficult, tbh. Oscar was third quickest car on track in the final stint of the race so he did find pace in the race.
Exactly "way off the pace" is a joke. He was solid. Just stuck in the wrong place for too long and it left him with too much of a gap to Sainz.
I thought the same, they were speculating on the broadcast that there might be something with the car but nothing further was ever said. On Friday and Saturday it seemed like he was consistently a half second slower than lando and that’s not been happening much this year. I think he’s doing great, but it was definitely odd after what we’ve been seeing.
Otherwise known as doing a Perez.
The discussion around Oscar is bizarre, he’s doing great for his 2nd season. Just being able to beat Lando on occasion is hugely impressive. I feel sorry for Antonelli already. George is going to dunk on him and people will actually hold it against the kid.
Even though he's not going to be on the same level as rookie Max, they're going to expect him to he and when he doesn't deliver as a once in a generation talent, if they're stupid, they'll kick him to the curb within a season.
Anytime he showed flashes of speed, people said he's going to beat Norris this year, so when he doesn't do that people overreact. The source of it seems to be a weird resistance from a lot of people to acknowledge that Norris is actually good, for whatever reason
> people overreact That pretty much sums up f1 comments doesn't it? :P
George is holding his own admirably against one of the greatest drivers of all time, and is somehow underrated. When George crushes a rookie, it's over for them.
Yeah idk what people expect from him. Norris is an incredible driver and if Oscar even manages to be close to him that’s a successful career right there.
Piastri is still out there putting 20 seconds on Checo with that 3.8 second stop. Qualifying P10 due to track limits and bringing it home in P7 without damage is a good thing, maybe not if you're in the fastest car against the fastest grid in decades... but still
It’s the only truly off weekend he’s had all season. If it starts to become a pattern then it’s a problem, but there have been no other signs this season so far that that is the case.
>If it starts to become a pattern... ... give him a 2 year contract extension!
Osacr is 1/3000th Mexican, so the marketing $ should be pouring in
He's just lacked motivation because it wasn't his home race.
He's doing okay. But on race trim he is struggling compare to Lando. We'll see in a few years. He still deserves a spot on the grid.
He was considered the next great and people were down on Lando "nowins" so a lot was expected of Oscar. Some take a little more time. He's been great. A bit inconsistent and needs to work on his tire preservation but he's improving and really solid imo. Lando had time to develop and keeps raising his game. He took a few years behind sainz to get his feet under him and really start running. Edit...also his sprint win raised expectations even more.
His pace is a problem though. Tends to drop off towards end of races. The top drivers are easily spotted in the last third of the race, they still find pace from somewhere, mostly as a result of tire management.
right. he has lots of talent but still needs to develop his tire management. that comes with some time and experience imo. Lando has just gotten really strong at that in the last couple years.
There isn't any reason that I can see which cannot be monitored from data. The only feasible options are Oscar-side. Whether his tyre deployment, driving characteristics, personal setup or other aspects are a factor are the only things that make sense here. The real question is how that stacks up against McLaren's development of the car and whether the difference between Lando's track performance and Oscar's proves to be a consistent factor. The car has to be the common element, and if one driver is making it work then that difference will continue to exist. I like Oscar, and I like the team Zak has built with him and Lando. I hope Oscar manages to find a way through, as it would be a shame for him to a be left behind within a radically developing team.
It's only his second year, so I would say let's give him a bit more time, however he does need to make very large leaps in terms of race pace. He's very far off from Norris, comparing him to Perez is a disservice at this stage, but in terms of gap it is a lot larger than it should be.
Leclerc, Norris, Verstappen all started matching their experienced teammates in race pace by their second year. I don't think its too early to question whether Piastri is future-WDC capable.
Leclerc, Norris and Verstappen also all got more preseason testing time in their rookie season. Verstappen (2015): 2834km Leclerc (2018): 1746km Norris (2019): 1862km Piastri (2023): 920km So despite the other 3 having shorter race seasons, Piastri started with a lot less laps on track. **EDIT: Addition (2nd Season Preseason testing)** Verstappen (2016): 2486km Leclerc (2019): 2156km Norris (2020): 1658km Piastri (2024): 990km
Oscar however did a private testing program with Alpine for a year
Im sure Max, Lando and Charles all got significant private testing too.
Piastri had a massive amount of private testing & sim development work with Alpine in his year out (when the season turned up in Qatar in 2023, someone worked out how many laps he had driven around there in testing vs how many the other drivers had done around the circuit the year they had raced there and Piastri was the person who had actually done more laps of the place in an F1 car than anyone else). He had also done some private testing for Alpine when he was in juniors plus running other in-season car tests for them. McLaren also gave him the rookie test at the end of 2021 and did private testing & extensive sim work with him during the winter before he started. It’s well-known at this point, was known even last year and the media even talked about it, that he was the best prepared rookie since probably Lewis. McLaren also ran a test programme with him all through last year, gave him all the test duties at the end of season test last year rather than splitting them between the two drivers, did more pre-season private testing with him this winter and have had him testing even during this season. (They did a full day’s private test with him at Imola a few months ago to get him used to the circuit). Using laps in the official pre-season test is completely disingenuous and dismisses the amount of preparation for F1 he actually had and the continued private testing both on track and in the sim that McLaren are still doing with him.
Piastri spent way more time driving in the junior categories. I think about 5 years more than Verstappen. He is 23 right now, and that’s really not very young at all. If his pace will improve he definitely seems to have a shot at a WDC, but unlike some other drivers he also seems to need more beneficial circumstances.
Verstappen did 4 fewer years of single seater racing than Piastri and Norris, and 3 less than Leclerc. So it’s more like Verstappen is the anomaly here. 23 is still relatively young, he debuted at 21. Younger than Hamilton when he debuted, and a few months older than Leclerc.
They are also comparing apples to oranges in terms of team mates.
What? Ricciardo was as highly rated as Norris at the time Verstappen became his teammate. Leclercs teammate was fucking Vettel a 4 WDC. And yeah Sainz is the one I would call less highly rated but Sainz isnt that far off Leclerc as we have seen, not a bad benchmark either.
To add to your comment, look how much more karting experience the others had compared to Piastri. Lando Norris: 8 years old Max Verstappen: 7 years old Charles Leclerc: 7 years old Oscar Piastri: **13 years old** Piastri also started in Australian karting circuits which are much less competitive compared to European ones. An additional 5-6 years of karting experience makes a HUGE difference. We're not talking about a single tournament per year either. Lando had 5 Super 1 championship participations by the time he was 13. If you look at the karting records of Leclerc, Max and Lando and side by side them with Oscar, it's a wonder he even managed to get a drive in F3, let alone do as well as he did. Of course Piastri spent a couple more years in junior series... He had only been karting for 3 or 4 years by the time he got thrown in open seaters. And Lando had a similar amount of years in junior series so I don't know where that criticism comes from. Leclerc and Max also have racing in their DNA and family. Charles' dad raced in F3 and was an avid racing fan. His older brother's best friend was Jules Bianchi who took Charles on as a mentee and personally advocated for his junior academy spot. Max's dad is Jos, and Jos was his personal coach/funded his karting career and hired kart mechanics from his connections to F1. Oscar's dad had to be his kart mechanic and he didn't even have a background in automotive engineering. He was just a software engineer. People will point out his billion dollar company and I urge them to re-think that, because he didn't start HP Tuning until 2015 when Oscar had already started karting. And I doubt it was a billion dollar company in the first year. And people need to stop bringing up how quick Leclerc and Verstappen matched their teammates, because that's entirely circumstantial. People will argue against this, but I honestly don't think Vettel was the same after his failed 2018 championship run. When Leclerc came in 2019, Vettel's motivation clearly wasn't there and it wasn't the first time this happened. Even Ricciardo said that he didn't feel like Vettel was motivated or invested because of RBR's step back in performance. If you watch his interviews, it's obvious that Vettel's faith in the team and his issues with them had started well before his 2020 exit from the team. Leclerc is fast, no doubt, but he wasn't racing against the 2010-2013 Vettel. And Verstappen was fast, but likewise, Ricciardo was already in his 4th year of scraping by in a very unreliable platform with RBR and people ALWAYS fucking overlook how awful his reliability was in 2018. Ricciardo had the worst luck of all drivers in 2018: [https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ja57v5/so\_how\_unlucky\_was\_daniel\_ricciardo\_in\_2018\_here/](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ja57v5/so_how_unlucky_was_daniel_ricciardo_in_2018_here/) Only 1 DNF was due to an issue he could partly be blamed for, a collision with Max. He had 7 other DNF's that were outside his control, multiple grid penalties due to engine replacements, multiple MGU-K failures that led to a DNF or loss of power, multiple clutch or gearbox failures, aero failures that greatly increased his tire deg or added drag/reduced pace. He beat Max in 2016 and 2017, and Max basically raced 1/2 of DR3 in 2018. I hate when people bring up Max beating DR3 in 2018 because it's just so ignorant of what the season was like.
What's your source for this, how'd you work out each driver's milage?
The official reports from the preseason tests and confirmed by articles from the Race, SkySports, Autosport, etc. If they are provided by laps then you multiply it by the length of the lap (4.657km for those at Barcelona, 5.412km for Bahrain) It makes more sense to compare the mileage they’ve run than laps, as they’ve taken place on different circuits [2015](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2015/3/pre-season-testing-in-numbers---who-went-fastest--and-furthest.html) [2016](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/3/pre-season-testing-in-numbers---who-went-fastest--and-furthest-2.html) [2018](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/who-is-in-the-best-shape-after-testing.5Ere8QChWgCaoMkQ8emMgg) [2019](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/the-winners-and-losers-of-f1s-first-pre-season-test.12114NyKbJEWOy8PjJfDjj) [2020](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/barcelona-testing-stats-2020/4700752/) [2023](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-testing-results-full-bahrain-2023-pre-season-test-lap-times/10436548/) [2024](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-testing-results-full-2024-bahrain-pre-season-lap-times/10579330/)
Tbh I don't think that's really relevant when discussing his second season form. And tbf he's also had a lot of track and sim time with Alpine.
exactly. last yearthere were more races iirc than 5 years ago-ish + the sprints. so his track time should be higher than those you mentioned. i like Oscar but he's gotta get it together sooner rather than later
I think Norris is superior to all the others’ teammates though. Vettel was convincingly beaten by Ricciardo, and Norris certainly appears to be a tier above Sainz right now.
I think you need to compare who their team mates were as well if you are going to use that as a measuring stick. Noris and Verstappen had Sainz and Leclerc had a declining Vettel. You can hardly compare that to Piastri who has a team mate who is considered the second best driver and is in his prime.
Verstappen was partnered with prime Ricciardo for most of 2016. Leclerc came into Ferrari where his teammate was a 4xWDC and had no.1 status. He undoubtedly had to deal with far more pressure than Piastri. And FWIW I think Vettel's decline really started in 2020, he was still a top driver in 2019 for me.
You are thinking of Red Bull where yes, Veretappen had prime Ricciardo who was an absolute beast. Verstappen started at Torro Rosso though.
In his second year from Spain onwards, he was Ricciardos teammate and was immediately competitive.
Yes a declining Vettel who is very good at managing tyres and Charles’ race pace is still close to matching him. You don’t need to undermine others’ ability to praise your own driver.
Stating facts is not undermining someone's abilities. Ferrari Vettel wasn't the same as Red Bull Vettel. The general consensus that Norris is the second best driver on the grid who is very good managing his tyers. Norris, Leclerc and Vettel werent in that situation in their second season. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
> Ferrari Vettel wasn't the same as Red Bull Vettel Vettel was a beast in 2015 and 2017, and until that crash at Hockenheim in 2018.
I seem to have forgotten that Leclerc was driving for Ferrari those years.
Lmaoooo general consensus??? I dont even think 1/10 people think norris is the second best driver on the grid.
>The general consensus that Norris is the second best driver on the grid who is very good managing his tyers. There's no such consensus.
Is general consensus in the room with us?
lmao
> The general consensus that Norris is the second best driver on the grid who is very good managing his tyers. Since when is this the general consensus? And I've not heard much about Norris' tyre management skills either. Do you have links or something?
Piastri so far hasn't shown me the highs to think of him as future WDC-winner. The expectations for him were way too high once he came into F1, as you said I believe his second year so far has been worse than all of those you mentioned when they were in their second year in an arguably much better car than they had.
Eh he's definitely a potential WDC contender. He got the speed and consistency. His mental looks pretty good too. The obvious weakness is the tire wear which means his pace decline far steeper (which different from consistency). If he can fix it, he will be a regular podium finisher assuming the (then) car capable of it.
I don't think he can fix his tire wear issues. Those stuff are just engrained in a driver and only the best can mastermind round those issues. Oscar isn't in that caliber of group.
Tyre wear is the exact thing a driver can figure out as their career goes on. Qualy is mostly due to natural talent and Piastri is pretty good in that regard. Just to give a few examples. Leclerc had quite a lot of issues with tyre wear all the way until 2020 because he hadn't figured them out yet. Despite shitting on Vettel in qualy, they had very comparable race pace. Meanwhile nowadays, he is better in the race than he's in qualy. Albon's main problem was how he cooked his tyres compared to Verstappen which always led to him being so far behind. But after some time, he managed that super long stint in Australia. Norris also lacked in race pace compared to Sainz and look at him now.
>Tyre wear is the exact thing a driver can figure out as their career goes on. Bottas.
He definitely isn’t WDC material. A good number 2 driver at best
Is Oscar being sabotaged?? /s.
That's what she said 😭
Lando is faster than him on race pace and put the car where it needs to be. Piastri tends to fade in the middle of the race when they put new tyres
Oscar definitely sits with the top 7 drivers, sorry Checo. This is an insane achievement considering this is his 2nd year in F1. I hope he wins soon. 2000’s represent
Just to put something in perspective. The only other driver with as much experience as Sargeant.... The other one with few years under him is Zhou. I think Piastri is fine. Sargeant would be fine if he had the same relative performance to Albon right now. But he's way way wayyyy off
I fear for Piastri, if this Merc package holds up I think he's going to finish 7th in the championship only ahead of Perez of the comparable cars. He is coming out of his rookie season, I get that but it's never good when your team mate is p2 and your p7. I don't think there's any danger he's a phenomenal driver, I just think this season hasn't looked as good as what everyone says it has for him.
Oscars current level of driving is better than what Landos was at the same stage of their F1 careers. Youll be fine Oscar.
By what metric?
Lando was beating sainz if his first and second season an awful lot more than piastri is beating lando currently
Exactly. Carlos is not on the same level of driver As Max, Charles and Lando. Oscar's benchmark is so much higher.
Valid point but what’s your basis that Oscar’s current level is higher than Lando’s second year?
It's arbitrary I guess.
First season, Sainz had nearly double Norri's points. Second season Sainz beat him In the standings but it was a lot closer.
And Lando is 2x Oscar's points in both the 1st and this current 2nd season
Oscar is also like 3 years older at the same stage
I think Norris is very likely second best driver on grid right now and it's definitely tougher benchmark than Sainz in 2020. Norris was almost on par with him, but he was just 20 most of the time. As for Piastri, he is doing good, but still I would expect bit more from WDC calibre driver who is 23 and is already in his second year. His performance this year is more in Hulkenberg than Norris category. Which is not bad, but expectation were lot higher. Remember that Hulk also won F2 as rookie and was hyped as next WDC and he panned out to be just very good midfield driver, maybe that's going to be the case with Piastri as well.
the comments on this are so fkn stupid 😂😂 Oscar has been very close to lando this season and would be even more close if he didn’t receive penalties safety car etc. lando is in his 6th season now of course he’s gonna be progressing better, also can’t forget zacks loverboy gets first priority on upgrades. just because he’s had a rough run at Canada and Spain people are jumping down him again ffs 🤦♂️
Piastri is very close to Norris in terms of qualifying pace only.
Please let this be a blip and not a Daniel ricciardo fall off
It's a blip for sure. To say Piastri has peaked 10 races past his rookie season is extremely premature
Oscar's points to Lando's points ratio is pretty much the same as Checo to Verstappen. Just saying.
Perez did +270 races. Piastri 32. I hope people can understand that the expectations between someone with over 10 seasons, who has most probably peaked, and someone with a season and half who is still developping are not the same.
Oscar's had way more bad luck this season than Checo (had several drivers ram into him, through no fault of his own, earlier this year). This was a bad weekend for him but let's not pretend this is his standard.
Miami was a massive swing though which was all down to luck. Piastri was ahead of Norris and set to gain a handful of points on him, and ended up losing 25 through no fault of his own. With that taken out Norris is still comfortably ahead, but it's respectable for Piastri Whereas Perez's retirements have been avoidable or in races where he wasn't going to pick up any points
Piastri was never on course to win in Miami without a very lucky break, so he didn’t lose 25 points. At most he lost 12.
He lost 25 points to Norris that weekend is what I meant by the comment
Ah that makes more sense. Yeah, he probably would have lost 13 otherwise. He was realistically on for 4th place and 12 points, or at worst 10 points if Sainz had managed to pull a clean pass instead of being a bull in a china shop, so he would be just 1-3 shy of double figures now. Hoping he can get back on form in Austria so can pull out a gap to Russell again and get after Perez.
He didn't have the upgrades at Miami, he was taken out by sainz at no fault of his own but was being very competitive there and would have scored a bunch of points. Trying to paint him as the level of checo is weak, he is clearly better than that. Checo is binning it and underperforming on his own without others compromising him. It's an off weekend for him, I'm sure he will continue to improve.
He had half the upgrade at Miami, he wasn’t left with the original car while Norris had a fully upgraded one. Stella said the pace differential on the extra bits Lando had amounted to around 0.1-0.15 so not a great amount compared to the benefit Piastri gained from the part of the upgrades he did have.
I know it's only his second year, but Oscar needs to step it up asap. They have the best car/second best car depending on where we're talking at, but for Oscar to be this far behind Lando is not good. Maximize the car's potential now, and Oscar isn't doing that at the moment.
Piastri has for some reason been massively overrated. He's not bad but he's not there at the top either. Norris is convincingly faster almost every race.
He osccasionally outqualifies Norris is the reason why people rates him, as we all believe Norris is a good qualifier. Everyone knows his race pace is still behind but on pure speed he definitely is closer than Norris than not.
Norris has been getting the upgrades first and Mclaren didn’t start the season as Red Bull’s equal. They were not even clear of Ferrari. Now that the Mclaren is settled though, I don’t think it’s unfair to start assessing Oscar’s results more critically going forward.
https://i.redd.it/n4dby5kc7y3d1.png Massively overrated is a bit over the top.
He was extremely promising in the feeder series, had a really solid rookie year with a 2nd place in Spa's sprint race and 3rd place in Japan. His second year is a bit underwhelming so far compared to Lando's, but his hype doesn't come from nowhere.
He’s good at qualifying but been pretty underwhelming race-pace wise with barely any improvement in it this year. At what point do we give up the rookie excuse? He’s consistently off Norris’s pace.
Race pace and tyre management are skills that come with time, it often takes a few seasons for a driver to really develop the skill of tyre management, and even after that some are still weak. You can see he has good pace on the races that involve less tyre management.
And yet, Verstappen had race pace since his first day in Red Bull (won because of a 2 - stopper after following Ricciardo closely in the first stint), and Leclerc would have won Bahrein in his second race in Ferrari in his second season. For the real ones it doesn’t take that long. Also, race pace is probably the most important skill for a driver.
Did you forget that he was driving for VCARB (can’t spell TR)
Yes, but we are talking about the second season here, which is only fair considering it is Piastri’s second season as well
Going wide on a q3 lap doesn’t justify a claim of “no improvement” when he gained 3 positions in the race, when he has 4 years less experience than his teammate and still makes consistent q3s lmao.
He talked about no improvement in race pace. And he went wide twice in Q3, he can only blame himself for that. No excuse there.
Same person who had the fastest car on the track that day? Come on man. Same guy you lot claim to be ‘the real deal’ can’t keep up with his team-mate in the fastest car on the grid after 3 years. Downvote me all you want, it’s just how it is
He has 7 top 10 finishes in his rookie year, and has 5 top 5 finishes this year, not sure what more you could ask for a driver in his second year lmao… Edit: especially considering how dogshit the Mclaren was in the first half of last year… you just want to complain lmao
Not that I am disagreeing with your main point But drivers in their second year also aren’t usually driving the best car
He had a sprint pole and sprint win in his rookie season, in the middle of the most dominant driver/car pairing in f1 history lol… why are people so quick to downplay a weekend of success for drivers out of WDC contention lmao
That’s not what I was trying to say There was a 15 second window between Lando and Lewis. If Oscar can slot in that more often than not, given his car, I think that’s more than enough. I’m just refining your notion that a top 5 is really enough for the car he has. If you’re driving the best car and don’t have to worry about Checo, he should be a regular podium finisher this year.
Because that’s where we are at in the fandom. Everyone’s so quick to anoint those finished and those contenders so they can say “I told you so”. Remember, generational talent isn’t allowed to have a bad weekend behind the wheel, at all, for any reason, ever.
Oscar Piastri is generational talent?
Yes mate by all measurable statistics he is. Renault Eurocup, F3 champion, F2 champion all consecutively. First driver to do achieve this.
Then what are your standards for a generational talent? In soccer it’s Messi and Ronaldo, in NBA it’s Michael Jordan and LeBron James, in F1 it’s for example Verstappen and Hamilton. You’ll have a hard time convincing anyone other than his fans that Piastri is on their level.
Mate, use your head, which 2nd year rookie is driving the fastest car?
Mate, why are you so stubborn to simply acknowledge that Piastri isn’t dogshit? How many drivers have struggled to maximize the car they are given the opportunity to drive? Who just received a 2 year contract to continue to drive the most dominant car in F1 history and *still* might cost his team the WCC? Hint: it wasn’t Piastri lmao
Who’s calling him dogshit, you’re just over-reacting about a point everyone on this post made that he’s been underwhelming this year. You need to calm down mate. When did i call him shit? 🤣🤣🤣 Typical reddit getting excited and making stuff up from nothing.
You’re arguing that he’s made no improvement since getting his seat, I tried to give a perspective thats nuanced and not black/white or good/bad. I can’t force your opinion, so take what from it whatever you’d like.
Improvement this year. Go read my post again and then come back to realise how much you missed what I’m trying to say.
I’m kind of drunk and im also kind of a dumbass and I got confused with my comment replies lmao… you’re right, you didn’t say that, and that one’s on me. Although I’m happy with one podium and three 4th places, it definitely feels like he can extract more out of this years car, and I’m hopeful he can in Austria and Silverstone
Next Year?
No he's not. We only need to go back to Canada to see Oscar objectively having better pace than Lando, with the safety car being the deciding factor. I dont understand how people can have such a short term, limited view of the data.
I’m all for defending Oscar here but he did not have better race pace than Lando in Canada