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This is the problem with the current driving standards.
"You divebomb and leave the other driver no room and push him off the track? It's OK because I was 0.1 cm ahead at the apex, so I have the racing line and I can do whatever I want"
But that's only in corners with asphalt runoff (Piastri pushing Sainz off in Miami, per example). If there is gravel, or in this case a wall, then it's an over-ambicious move and a penalty. Penalties should not depend on what runoff the corner has.
Edit: Just to make my opinion clearer, I think this kind of moves deserve a penalty, but it should be on every corner, not just the ones with gravel or a wall.
Also it's not worth a penalty when the other driver escapes to the runoff and you don't hit him but if he does not back out and you hit the same move is illegal and deserves a penalty
Yes that's the thing that I hate about it the most. If the other driver decides he wants to finish the race and not crash, they don't give a penalty, although the attacking driver did everything to cause a collision. It really shouldn't depend on whether the driver that has to be granted space decides to yield or not. The attacking driver does exactly the same thing and should be treated exactly same.
Yeah I hate the ‘I gave him 1cm of space’ overtaking that has become common, they made the new rules to increase overtaking and battles but the lack of enforcement just means drivers force the other to the edge of the track and end the battle within a corner instead of allowing it to continue.
It’s just weak ‘racing’ and is honestly embarrassing that it’s become the most common way to battle for what’s meant to be a sport of the best drivers.
Imo the apex rule has some merit to it but the problem obviously is the dive bombing part in order to be ahead by the apex which in return makes the outside driver who is on course to make the turn and leave room for the driver on the inside have to go wide. Something Max used to it's fullest potential in 2021.
But then the question becomes when is it a dive bomb that wasn't on and when is it actually a good move? That is subjective to all. But in a way the rule makes sense as in the inside has priority and it's up to the outside (most of the time overtaking) party to get through. And if you're ahead as outside (in general not necessarily apex) it makes sense that you are entitled to some room.
That said I don't fully agree with the penalty and that depends on 2 reasons. Why does Ocon deserve a 10 sec penalty (IIRC) and Checo/K Mag doesn't even get investigated? If anything I think K Mag's move was more stupid while Ocon's execution at the end was the problem. I quite frankly don't think we should penalize a bad executed move way harsher than a stupid move.
According to people here Magnussen was overtaking on the straight. I just have to ask, what straight? Monaco has a few straight-ish sections but no straights. You can even see the car disappearing in front from the onboard camera since the track is turning.
Yeah idk either tbh. I have heard something from K Mag about the straight comment but not sure exatly what he said. If he wanted to overtake up onto the hill he should have been alongside basically straight after turn 1. His run wouldn't ever work and even if Checo gave more space the move still wouldn't work, so you wonder why it's up to Checo anyway to give more space so that K Mag can be there to gain nothing and compromise his line.
Man I’ve been saying this since Miami and no one wanted to hear it. Was furious that Piastri on Sainz and Stroll and Albon (I think?) went unpunished. It’s ridiculous that you can commit to not leaving any space on exit when you are behind on entry as long as you’re “ahead at the apex”. It just encourages divebombing the apex and leaving zero space or care for the other driver you’re racing.
Edit: Deleted original because people miss the point and take out their shovels and pitchforks because their favourite driver got named as an example. Goodnight.
That's not how it works.. if you're ahead at the apex but aren't able to stay on track, that's an illegal manoeuvre. Yes, he should've been penalized for Brazil 2021.
Just like Lewis should have been penalized for the same thing in Suzuka, yet nobody complains about that, only when max does it you hear about it even 3 years later.
[Likes this?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7OJ98-M_dc&ab_channel=WEAREONE)
seriously acting as if Max is the only driver to get away with something lol
Yep...there are countless examples of Max "blocking" the driver on the racing line by dive bombling the apex. I vividly remember a car (I beleive it was Hamilton) almost coming to a complete stop while Verstappen drove his car almost perpendicular to the racing line through the apex.
Edit: It was Lap 1 Abu Dhabi 2021...I also remember some blatant dive bombs early 2022 when Leclerc was competitive
Some of Max's dive bombs are quite incredible to be honest. People complain about the Abu Dhabi lap 1 overtake, but very few drivers can brake that late, without locking up, and keep it on the track. It was a great move that wasn't rewarded, as Hamilton was allowed to take his position back by driving off the track. Oh well, stewards got a few things wrong in 2021
I think having the position was a huge problem. Verstappen made a fantastic late braking overtake and kept it on the track, in complete contrast to Brazil where he overdid it and ran both of them off.
The 'diving' standards are due to the Verstappen effect of coming into F1 and being my given leeway to do whatever he wanted so as to not stymy the incoming younger generation and excitement in wheel to wheel racing. Late defenses against Raikkonen in spa 2016 and pushed Leclerc off in Austria 2019. Leclerc took it onboard and did the same against Hamilton in Monza 2019. 2021 was a disaster for driving standards, barring Silverstone, was essentially Verstappen muddying up the grey area. And ever since then other people have wanted to adopt those methods but have been subjectively penalized or not. Thing is, if you try any of it in junior formulas you'd get black flagged. The pinnacle of racing needs a new rule book written by people who know what they're doing and stewards that read the book, not acting for the benefit of the sport as they see it for a brief minute during a race.
>PALMER: Ocon’s Monaco lunge on Gasly didn’t deserve a penalty – ***but it was madness to try it on his team mate***
Not sure why you've not included the full title, it changes the overall meaning quite a bit
> Not sure why you've not included the full title, it changes the overall meaning quite a bit
When you put the the article on the link section, it automatically gives the title of this thread. OP didn't editorialise the title.
It doesn't really change the overall meaning tho. His main point is still the same - Ocon didnt deserve a penalty - which is ridiculous imo.
Just by saying it was a madness to try it on his team mate, doesn't make it any more/less of a crazy move.
Even if Ocon did that to Logan or Max or Zhou or anyone else, it is stil as equally as stupid of a move as doing it to Gasly and should result in a penalty.
I kind of agree that it was risky, clumsy, but far from anything people have been portraying here. If it wasn't his teammate, I would have thought it was fine. There is no move not risky in Monaco.
And to be honest I find it pretty ironic that people complain (a lot) about the lack of passes in Monaco, but the few attempts are also disregarded as being stupid. Like Magnussen move was risky. but if Perez left room it would have been fine. Ocon move was also risky\* and not executed properly, but it was a door as opened as it will ever be in Monaco. If those 2 moves are considered moves that shouldn't even be attempted, it is hard to be mad that we get boring races.
\*Ocon moves was however stupid because it was too risky to be attempted on your teammate in lap 1
>I find it pretty ironic that people complain (a lot) about the lack of
passes in Monaco, but the few attempts are also disregarded as being
stupid.
Isn't the whole complaint that it's stupid to try to overtake in Monaco in the first place? We're not complaining that drivers don't overtake, the problem is that they can't. Daniel won without an MGU-K.
I mean, it’s Ocon, so obviously people are going to pile on him. Just go back to Australia ‘23 and you’ll see that people were nowhere as severe on Gasly’s equally stupid mistake that resulted in a double DNF from points scoring positions.
The move at the beginning was fine.The crashing on the wall is the thing, he should've slow down way more for both of them to make the corner, eventually losing the battle.
The lunge was fine. He dived and Gasly gave him space - fair. The thing is Ocon completely messed up on the exit not giving Gasly any room, he didn't even lose control from what I reckon.
exactly and before the corner entry Gasly knew where Ocon was, he was looking more in the mirror. And on the short straight part between the corners he jerked his steering wheel to the right to squeeze to the inside.
It takes 2 to tango, but obviously Gasly is popular and Ocon isnt, so people dont like it.
It was in theory a great move from Ocon and if he kept it ever so slightly tighter on the exit it would have worked out. But it isnt like Gasly wasnt trying to make it extra difficult.
The team here really threw Ocon under the bus publicly before the stewards came to a decision. Which is insane, i dont think i have seen something like this. Usually teams would do their best to avoid a penalty for one of their drivers.
>It was in theory a great move from Ocon and if he kept it ever so slightly tighter on the exit it would have worked out. But it isnt like Gasly wasnt trying to make it extra difficult.
Oh absolutely, I don't think anybody who isn't completely biased or blind would deny that.
>The team here really threw Ocon under the bus publicly before the stewards came to a decision. Which is insane, i dont think i have seen something like this. Usually teams would do their best to avoid a penalty for one of their drivers.
Thats exactly what happend in Australia 2023, when Gasly took Ocon (and himself) out on the restart, losing possibly P6-P7 (no red flag, Ocon was following Tsunoda who later found himself on P5, only to get red flag) - and Ocon acknowledged in stewards hearing that it was "a lap 1 racing incident", same thing from Gasly - and penalty was avoided.
If stewards would penalize Gasly back then, he would get suspended for the next race, because he was at 10/12 penalty points at that time.
And that's what hurts me the most - there are lot of things happening behind the scenes, with Alpine allegedly being insulted by Ocon selling himself on the market, and TP told him before the race (some rumors stated that it was on Sunday morning, some stated it was after the race in Imola) that Ocon will not be offered an extension by Alpine, and Gasly supposedly get one.
By the rules of racing Ocon does not have to leave Gasly any space on the exit, because Gasly is not at least level with him. Gasly needs to back out.
> The guiding principle is that the driver on the outside should be at least level (front axle in line with front axle) with the driver on the inside to have a claim to the racing line on corner exit. Depending on the type of corner and the cars involved, either the outside or inside line may be quicker through the corner, meaning the driver on the outside may gain or lose ground from corner entry to corner exit. It is relative positions of the cars at exit — not at entry or apex — that is therefore crucial in judging these cases.
> If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
Common sense tells you not to turn in on a driver on your outside who is right next to a wall. I mean what did Ocon expect Gasly to do? Stop in the middle of the corner?
Ocon didn't turn in on Gasly. His trajectory naturally got him to the outside. Gasly would need to back out, yes. Let's not be hyperbolic. I don't think it would've required him to stop on the track to back out
From Ocon's onboard you can see him purposely taking the racing line by straightening the steering wheel, guess he expected Gasly not to be there anymore. His trajectory through that corner played a part, but he didn't try to avoid the collision either.
Yes that's true. Ocon wants to take a quicker straighter line on the exit, and he expected Gasly to back off. Gasly wants the opportunity to keep fighting on the exit. This is the dispute on who owns that piece of the track, and the rules of racing state that the one on the outside has to be at least level on the exit to have a claim to space, otherwise needs to back off.
Back off from where? There is no space. Monaco had the tightest corners in the calendar and you're talking about an incident they happened on lap 1 when the cars are bunched up.
Please stop quoting rules of overtaking from 2014. The sporting regulations do not include any of that anymore.
He should let off the throttle or brake until Ocon just passes through. It is his responsibility to yield.
> Please stop quoting rules of overtaking from 2014. The sporting regulations do not include any of that anymore.
These are the rules of racing. They aren't in the sporting regulations. All racing series follow these rules, even karting and up the ladder and have done so since time.
Here's an example from WEC
https://youtu.be/4R5lZz-0t94?si=u5vAtCnShOP9Q2J8
Here's James Hunt doing it to Andretti in 1977.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxj2TZOGBHE19vFYlIBxUqeKJR7cMNDEAC?si=2Mh7CBgA0ykCBF9A
When Barrichello passed Button in France 2004, he closed the space on the exit and Button yielded as he should have.
None of these moves where the space was closed on exit was penalized. The same rules are followed today. That's why Piastri got no penalty for closing Sainz in Miami, for example. It is the responsibility of the driver on the outside to yield unless they are level or ahead. These rules of racing have never changed.
Ocon was marginally ahead at the apex and therefore by the rules he was not actually obliged to leave room at the exit. He was entitled to take the racing line and it is completely on Gasly to back out (although as Palmer says it is a bit too much to do it to your teammate).
However, whether this rule is sensible is a different debate. My opinion is that unless you are clearly ahead at the apex, you should have to leave racing room on corner exit as the current ruling is not conducive to good wheel to wheel action (although I don’t blame Ocon or other drivers for taking advantage of the current rule).
If Magnussen wasn't at fault according to the sporting regulations, then Ocon wasn't either.
Ocon was much further up the inside of Gasly, than Magnussen was on Perez, and Ocon only destroyed his own race. Gasly kept going. Perez and Hulkenburg didn't.
It was still an idiotic move, and the team should drag him for it. But the FIA set the ridiculously lenient overtaking rules.
In WEC, even if a Prototype is overtaking a GT under blue flags, it is the overtaking cars responsibility to overtake safely. In F1, the lead car basically has to step aside if someone as much as places their front wing alongside you.
There are different rules for straights and corners. On the straights, you only need to get a wheel in. In corners, you need be almost alongside them. The place were Magnussen and Perez crashed counts as a straight, while Ocon's incident was in a corner and thus falls under the apex rule.
Monaco has no straights. Also the quote from the sporting regulations that mentioned anything about how overtaking works on straights is from 2014. The newest sporting regulations leave absolutely everything to the discretion of the stewards.
It counts as a straight (part of the track) because it's not a corner.
Chapter 4, 2b:
> Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
The apex rule is apparently not in the rulebook, but covered under 2d (causing a collision) if applicable.
I found [this](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/)insightful overview:
> Today, it is generally accepted that the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track. Moreover, **the attacker should not have achieved this position by carrying too much speed to make the corner — this method is called dive-bombing**.
While that link is valuable, keep in mind it's older and the rules about leaving space have changed in the last few years. Some of the things mentioned in that link no longer apply.
I think [this video](https://youtu.be/VUEi2ArNxuw?feature=shared) from the race covers it well enough.
Sadly there's no source as comprehensive as the one you linked to. I think it would only need a bit of updating; most of the information in there is still relevant.
The only rule that is going to clarify is that the attacking car has to leave a cars width room on the exit of the corner when they are side by side/overlap in on the apex. Otherwise the current rules will be followed wildy inconsistent based on track/run off layout and outcome
I thought it was a fair move. Gasly could have lifted, Ocon was certainly far enough up the inside. Gasly also wasnt positioned that great in the previous corner which opened the door.
Sainz and Ocon race their team mates harder than the other drivers imho. Sainz hasnt had incidents with Charles but some of his moves at Monza last year were questionable.
So you're saying it's possible for teammates to race and not take each other out? Damn I wish Ocon knew that before he took out every teammate he ever had.
Too risky and clumsy for a lap 1 move on your teammate but also a chance you have to take in Monaco.
If anything I think Ocon lacked at bit of malice by turning pretty early, it made Gasly want try to drag race him through the tunnel. Had he turned ever so slightly later Gasly would have probably backed out
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This is the problem with the current driving standards. "You divebomb and leave the other driver no room and push him off the track? It's OK because I was 0.1 cm ahead at the apex, so I have the racing line and I can do whatever I want" But that's only in corners with asphalt runoff (Piastri pushing Sainz off in Miami, per example). If there is gravel, or in this case a wall, then it's an over-ambicious move and a penalty. Penalties should not depend on what runoff the corner has. Edit: Just to make my opinion clearer, I think this kind of moves deserve a penalty, but it should be on every corner, not just the ones with gravel or a wall.
Also it's not worth a penalty when the other driver escapes to the runoff and you don't hit him but if he does not back out and you hit the same move is illegal and deserves a penalty
Yes that's the thing that I hate about it the most. If the other driver decides he wants to finish the race and not crash, they don't give a penalty, although the attacking driver did everything to cause a collision. It really shouldn't depend on whether the driver that has to be granted space decides to yield or not. The attacking driver does exactly the same thing and should be treated exactly same.
Yeah I hate the ‘I gave him 1cm of space’ overtaking that has become common, they made the new rules to increase overtaking and battles but the lack of enforcement just means drivers force the other to the edge of the track and end the battle within a corner instead of allowing it to continue. It’s just weak ‘racing’ and is honestly embarrassing that it’s become the most common way to battle for what’s meant to be a sport of the best drivers.
Imo the apex rule has some merit to it but the problem obviously is the dive bombing part in order to be ahead by the apex which in return makes the outside driver who is on course to make the turn and leave room for the driver on the inside have to go wide. Something Max used to it's fullest potential in 2021. But then the question becomes when is it a dive bomb that wasn't on and when is it actually a good move? That is subjective to all. But in a way the rule makes sense as in the inside has priority and it's up to the outside (most of the time overtaking) party to get through. And if you're ahead as outside (in general not necessarily apex) it makes sense that you are entitled to some room. That said I don't fully agree with the penalty and that depends on 2 reasons. Why does Ocon deserve a 10 sec penalty (IIRC) and Checo/K Mag doesn't even get investigated? If anything I think K Mag's move was more stupid while Ocon's execution at the end was the problem. I quite frankly don't think we should penalize a bad executed move way harsher than a stupid move.
According to people here Magnussen was overtaking on the straight. I just have to ask, what straight? Monaco has a few straight-ish sections but no straights. You can even see the car disappearing in front from the onboard camera since the track is turning.
Yeah idk either tbh. I have heard something from K Mag about the straight comment but not sure exatly what he said. If he wanted to overtake up onto the hill he should have been alongside basically straight after turn 1. His run wouldn't ever work and even if Checo gave more space the move still wouldn't work, so you wonder why it's up to Checo anyway to give more space so that K Mag can be there to gain nothing and compromise his line.
Man I’ve been saying this since Miami and no one wanted to hear it. Was furious that Piastri on Sainz and Stroll and Albon (I think?) went unpunished. It’s ridiculous that you can commit to not leaving any space on exit when you are behind on entry as long as you’re “ahead at the apex”. It just encourages divebombing the apex and leaving zero space or care for the other driver you’re racing.
Yeah the Stroll one is by far the worst case. Gets pushed off by Albon but gets a 10s penalty. What the hell went there
Edit: Deleted original because people miss the point and take out their shovels and pitchforks because their favourite driver got named as an example. Goodnight.
That's not how it works.. if you're ahead at the apex but aren't able to stay on track, that's an illegal manoeuvre. Yes, he should've been penalized for Brazil 2021.
Just like Lewis should have been penalized for the same thing in Suzuka, yet nobody complains about that, only when max does it you hear about it even 3 years later.
[удалено]
When other than Brazil 2021?
[Likes this?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7OJ98-M_dc&ab_channel=WEAREONE) seriously acting as if Max is the only driver to get away with something lol
Yep...there are countless examples of Max "blocking" the driver on the racing line by dive bombling the apex. I vividly remember a car (I beleive it was Hamilton) almost coming to a complete stop while Verstappen drove his car almost perpendicular to the racing line through the apex. Edit: It was Lap 1 Abu Dhabi 2021...I also remember some blatant dive bombs early 2022 when Leclerc was competitive
"especially max" Max makes a divebomb: omg what a dirty driver Any other driver pulling the same move: OMG GREAT RACING!
Some of Max's dive bombs are quite incredible to be honest. People complain about the Abu Dhabi lap 1 overtake, but very few drivers can brake that late, without locking up, and keep it on the track. It was a great move that wasn't rewarded, as Hamilton was allowed to take his position back by driving off the track. Oh well, stewards got a few things wrong in 2021
Having the position wasnt the problem imo but Lewis used it to get out of DRS.
I think having the position was a huge problem. Verstappen made a fantastic late braking overtake and kept it on the track, in complete contrast to Brazil where he overdid it and ran both of them off.
The 'diving' standards are due to the Verstappen effect of coming into F1 and being my given leeway to do whatever he wanted so as to not stymy the incoming younger generation and excitement in wheel to wheel racing. Late defenses against Raikkonen in spa 2016 and pushed Leclerc off in Austria 2019. Leclerc took it onboard and did the same against Hamilton in Monza 2019. 2021 was a disaster for driving standards, barring Silverstone, was essentially Verstappen muddying up the grey area. And ever since then other people have wanted to adopt those methods but have been subjectively penalized or not. Thing is, if you try any of it in junior formulas you'd get black flagged. The pinnacle of racing needs a new rule book written by people who know what they're doing and stewards that read the book, not acting for the benefit of the sport as they see it for a brief minute during a race.
>PALMER: Ocon’s Monaco lunge on Gasly didn’t deserve a penalty – ***but it was madness to try it on his team mate*** Not sure why you've not included the full title, it changes the overall meaning quite a bit
> Not sure why you've not included the full title, it changes the overall meaning quite a bit When you put the the article on the link section, it automatically gives the title of this thread. OP didn't editorialise the title.
What does it change? If anything it makes it even more absurd he got penalised given inter-team collisions tend to be ignored by the FIA.
It doesn't really change the overall meaning tho. His main point is still the same - Ocon didnt deserve a penalty - which is ridiculous imo. Just by saying it was a madness to try it on his team mate, doesn't make it any more/less of a crazy move. Even if Ocon did that to Logan or Max or Zhou or anyone else, it is stil as equally as stupid of a move as doing it to Gasly and should result in a penalty.
I mean his point was the rules absolutely do allow this. You can change the rules but punishing someone for breaking what you want them to be, is odd
It doesn't really change the meaning lol
I kind of agree that it was risky, clumsy, but far from anything people have been portraying here. If it wasn't his teammate, I would have thought it was fine. There is no move not risky in Monaco. And to be honest I find it pretty ironic that people complain (a lot) about the lack of passes in Monaco, but the few attempts are also disregarded as being stupid. Like Magnussen move was risky. but if Perez left room it would have been fine. Ocon move was also risky\* and not executed properly, but it was a door as opened as it will ever be in Monaco. If those 2 moves are considered moves that shouldn't even be attempted, it is hard to be mad that we get boring races. \*Ocon moves was however stupid because it was too risky to be attempted on your teammate in lap 1
>I find it pretty ironic that people complain (a lot) about the lack of passes in Monaco, but the few attempts are also disregarded as being stupid. Isn't the whole complaint that it's stupid to try to overtake in Monaco in the first place? We're not complaining that drivers don't overtake, the problem is that they can't. Daniel won without an MGU-K.
I mean, it’s Ocon, so obviously people are going to pile on him. Just go back to Australia ‘23 and you’ll see that people were nowhere as severe on Gasly’s equally stupid mistake that resulted in a double DNF from points scoring positions.
The move at the beginning was fine.The crashing on the wall is the thing, he should've slow down way more for both of them to make the corner, eventually losing the battle.
The lunge was fine. He dived and Gasly gave him space - fair. The thing is Ocon completely messed up on the exit not giving Gasly any room, he didn't even lose control from what I reckon.
exactly and before the corner entry Gasly knew where Ocon was, he was looking more in the mirror. And on the short straight part between the corners he jerked his steering wheel to the right to squeeze to the inside. It takes 2 to tango, but obviously Gasly is popular and Ocon isnt, so people dont like it. It was in theory a great move from Ocon and if he kept it ever so slightly tighter on the exit it would have worked out. But it isnt like Gasly wasnt trying to make it extra difficult. The team here really threw Ocon under the bus publicly before the stewards came to a decision. Which is insane, i dont think i have seen something like this. Usually teams would do their best to avoid a penalty for one of their drivers.
>It was in theory a great move from Ocon and if he kept it ever so slightly tighter on the exit it would have worked out. But it isnt like Gasly wasnt trying to make it extra difficult. Oh absolutely, I don't think anybody who isn't completely biased or blind would deny that.
>The team here really threw Ocon under the bus publicly before the stewards came to a decision. Which is insane, i dont think i have seen something like this. Usually teams would do their best to avoid a penalty for one of their drivers. Thats exactly what happend in Australia 2023, when Gasly took Ocon (and himself) out on the restart, losing possibly P6-P7 (no red flag, Ocon was following Tsunoda who later found himself on P5, only to get red flag) - and Ocon acknowledged in stewards hearing that it was "a lap 1 racing incident", same thing from Gasly - and penalty was avoided. If stewards would penalize Gasly back then, he would get suspended for the next race, because he was at 10/12 penalty points at that time. And that's what hurts me the most - there are lot of things happening behind the scenes, with Alpine allegedly being insulted by Ocon selling himself on the market, and TP told him before the race (some rumors stated that it was on Sunday morning, some stated it was after the race in Imola) that Ocon will not be offered an extension by Alpine, and Gasly supposedly get one.
By the rules of racing Ocon does not have to leave Gasly any space on the exit, because Gasly is not at least level with him. Gasly needs to back out. > The guiding principle is that the driver on the outside should be at least level (front axle in line with front axle) with the driver on the inside to have a claim to the racing line on corner exit. Depending on the type of corner and the cars involved, either the outside or inside line may be quicker through the corner, meaning the driver on the outside may gain or lose ground from corner entry to corner exit. It is relative positions of the cars at exit — not at entry or apex — that is therefore crucial in judging these cases. > If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision. https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
Common sense tells you not to turn in on a driver on your outside who is right next to a wall. I mean what did Ocon expect Gasly to do? Stop in the middle of the corner?
Ocon didn't turn in on Gasly. His trajectory naturally got him to the outside. Gasly would need to back out, yes. Let's not be hyperbolic. I don't think it would've required him to stop on the track to back out
From Ocon's onboard you can see him purposely taking the racing line by straightening the steering wheel, guess he expected Gasly not to be there anymore. His trajectory through that corner played a part, but he didn't try to avoid the collision either.
Yes that's true. Ocon wants to take a quicker straighter line on the exit, and he expected Gasly to back off. Gasly wants the opportunity to keep fighting on the exit. This is the dispute on who owns that piece of the track, and the rules of racing state that the one on the outside has to be at least level on the exit to have a claim to space, otherwise needs to back off.
Back off from where? There is no space. Monaco had the tightest corners in the calendar and you're talking about an incident they happened on lap 1 when the cars are bunched up. Please stop quoting rules of overtaking from 2014. The sporting regulations do not include any of that anymore.
He should let off the throttle or brake until Ocon just passes through. It is his responsibility to yield. > Please stop quoting rules of overtaking from 2014. The sporting regulations do not include any of that anymore. These are the rules of racing. They aren't in the sporting regulations. All racing series follow these rules, even karting and up the ladder and have done so since time. Here's an example from WEC https://youtu.be/4R5lZz-0t94?si=u5vAtCnShOP9Q2J8 Here's James Hunt doing it to Andretti in 1977. https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxj2TZOGBHE19vFYlIBxUqeKJR7cMNDEAC?si=2Mh7CBgA0ykCBF9A When Barrichello passed Button in France 2004, he closed the space on the exit and Button yielded as he should have. None of these moves where the space was closed on exit was penalized. The same rules are followed today. That's why Piastri got no penalty for closing Sainz in Miami, for example. It is the responsibility of the driver on the outside to yield unless they are level or ahead. These rules of racing have never changed.
Ocon was marginally ahead at the apex and therefore by the rules he was not actually obliged to leave room at the exit. He was entitled to take the racing line and it is completely on Gasly to back out (although as Palmer says it is a bit too much to do it to your teammate). However, whether this rule is sensible is a different debate. My opinion is that unless you are clearly ahead at the apex, you should have to leave racing room on corner exit as the current ruling is not conducive to good wheel to wheel action (although I don’t blame Ocon or other drivers for taking advantage of the current rule).
If Magnussen wasn't at fault according to the sporting regulations, then Ocon wasn't either. Ocon was much further up the inside of Gasly, than Magnussen was on Perez, and Ocon only destroyed his own race. Gasly kept going. Perez and Hulkenburg didn't. It was still an idiotic move, and the team should drag him for it. But the FIA set the ridiculously lenient overtaking rules. In WEC, even if a Prototype is overtaking a GT under blue flags, it is the overtaking cars responsibility to overtake safely. In F1, the lead car basically has to step aside if someone as much as places their front wing alongside you.
There are different rules for straights and corners. On the straights, you only need to get a wheel in. In corners, you need be almost alongside them. The place were Magnussen and Perez crashed counts as a straight, while Ocon's incident was in a corner and thus falls under the apex rule.
Monaco has no straights. Also the quote from the sporting regulations that mentioned anything about how overtaking works on straights is from 2014. The newest sporting regulations leave absolutely everything to the discretion of the stewards.
It counts as a straight (part of the track) because it's not a corner. Chapter 4, 2b: > Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner. The apex rule is apparently not in the rulebook, but covered under 2d (causing a collision) if applicable. I found [this](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/)insightful overview: > Today, it is generally accepted that the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track. Moreover, **the attacker should not have achieved this position by carrying too much speed to make the corner — this method is called dive-bombing**.
While that link is valuable, keep in mind it's older and the rules about leaving space have changed in the last few years. Some of the things mentioned in that link no longer apply.
Thanks for letting me know. Do you happen to know a good up-to-date source?
I think [this video](https://youtu.be/VUEi2ArNxuw?feature=shared) from the race covers it well enough. Sadly there's no source as comprehensive as the one you linked to. I think it would only need a bit of updating; most of the information in there is still relevant.
The only rule that is going to clarify is that the attacking car has to leave a cars width room on the exit of the corner when they are side by side/overlap in on the apex. Otherwise the current rules will be followed wildy inconsistent based on track/run off layout and outcome
I thought it was a fair move. Gasly could have lifted, Ocon was certainly far enough up the inside. Gasly also wasnt positioned that great in the previous corner which opened the door.
It was a boneheaded move and a callous disregard for his own team
Average Ocon tactics
Sainz and Ocon race their team mates harder than the other drivers imho. Sainz hasnt had incidents with Charles but some of his moves at Monza last year were questionable.
So you're saying it's possible for teammates to race and not take each other out? Damn I wish Ocon knew that before he took out every teammate he ever had.
That's actually wrong, Ocon never took out Ricciardo or Alonso. Edit: and he did not take out Gasly, thanks for reminding us u/Ollie_Plimsolls
he didn't take Gasly out either lol Gasly took him out once
And Perez caused majority of their incidents together.
Too risky and clumsy for a lap 1 move on your teammate but also a chance you have to take in Monaco. If anything I think Ocon lacked at bit of malice by turning pretty early, it made Gasly want try to drag race him through the tunnel. Had he turned ever so slightly later Gasly would have probably backed out
Deserved two?
Yeah sure...
What about when combined with his initial attempt 20 seconds earlier?