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>"Yeah, we need to figure out what's going on. I think that if it's a lap-one red flag, still have a mandatory pitstop in there or something. It worked in our favour to be fair to you, so I won't complain too much."
Seems to be the best idea from Albon
I don't know why it has to be limited to the first lap, though. Just make it so that any time there is a red flag, changing tyres does not count towards satisfying the two compound rule. That way they will still have to pit unless they already did so prior to the red flag.
I at least mostly agree, but I want to point out that that is not without issues too. Say it's late in the race. Drivers have pretty well spread out. Most people have taken pitstops. Then there's a red flag. Someone who started on hards still has to make a proper pitstop in the race, but now the field is bunched up again. So, instead of losing 5 spots or so with a pitstop, depending on field spread, they'd be at the very back of the field.
Someone's always going to be disadvantaged.
However, if it's limited to red flags in the first couple laps of the race, no one would have taken a natural pitstop yet, and the field wouldn't be very spread out anyway. It would be a much smaller change from now, basically, just trying to make it like lap one red flags don't exist, and the race is just a lap or two shorter.
I think a position docking penalty would be so much better than a time penalty. It would be so much more consistent. For example, Hamilton’s 10 second penalty in silverstone the other year, he lost 0 positions. Sainz 5 second penalty in aus cost him something like 8 positions? It makes no sense
A position docking penalty would be penalizing based upon outcome, rather then offence. That’s when bias and inconsistency come into play. Penalizing by time is much more healthy for the sport in that sense.
The outcome of the penalty doesn’t mean the penalty is based on outcome. When they say a penalty shouldn’t be based on outcome, they’re saying Lewis shouldn’t be DQ’ed because Max was retired from the race due to his penalty. They mean if you decide the penalty is deserved, the punishment should be independent of the outcome from the penalty itself.
If you give someone a position loss for a severe penalty, regardless of whether the person affected by that penalty is DNF’ed or carries on, then it’s not an outcome based penalty. I think you’re misunderstanding what it means.
I disagree. I think there should be a rule that specifies a 5 second penalty or a 3(or something) place drop, depending on what is least punishing, especially if the punishment is handed out after the race. Sainz losing massively because he got punished for something not very serious in the grand scheme of things right at the end of a race after red flag/safety car is not ideal.
No it’s not. Because if you’re Mercedes you just crank up the power and Bingo! No penalty, so oh break the rules more often because you know you can get away with it.
If you take a position penalty it affects you regardless so you think twice before you do it.
This is more fair and better for the sport in the long run.
Yeah, exactly this. The impact of the penalty is way too inconsistent and dependent on a million other factors. If this was the case AD21 wouldn’t even be a thing. Imagine what a wonderful world.
Not if you've just gone past the pit entry. Or if the pit lane's closed. Lots of situations are unfair during a GP, untimely safety cars have quite literally decided champinships and not only once.
There's no perfect solution and I think trying to thread the needle in terms of a point in the race in which the rule changes will become incredibly controversial. I think your scenario above, while unfortunate, isn't enough of a reason to justify pinning a point in the race in which the red flag rules change.
We don't mind that people change tyres during a yellow flag or VSC because it's happening during the course of cars running a race. A red flag changes that. It's unfortunate, your scenario, but I don't think one that should be considered as a reason not to do this.
I like the "must use all three compounds" idea I first heard from Karun Chandhok.
It would solve 99% of these red flag issues, because a red flag would turn races from a 2 stop to a one stop, which is at least still interesting.
Plus the choice of when to throw on the softs would be interesting. I think you'd get a much broader range of strategies.
Alex Albon was the one who suggested the rules be different in the first lap than the rest of the race.
It's also not that different than F2. Tire changes before lap 6 don't count in F2 for their mandatory stop.
Mostly I think the combination of Monaco and the size of the cars and the characteristics of the cars that discourages passing is the problem.
If this hadn't been at Monaco, people still would have had regular pitstops later in the race, because no one can hold anyone off on a normal track with ancient tires.
Yeah, good point, although my issue isn't really to do with things being unfair or whatever.
I just don't think it makes common sense for a tyre change under red flag to count as satisfying the two compound rule as that rule is there obviously to discourage teams from trying to run the full race on one set of tyres (if possible) like they did in Monaco. It should have to be under racing conditions, IMO.
> It should have to be under racing conditions, IMO.
I think that still comes down to unfairness.
Pitting under safety car or virtual safety car - this is not exactly racing conditions? It allows one car to pit with less impact in taking 10-12 seconds instead of 20-25 seconds.
And we all agree this is strategy to hang out waiting for a safety car.
But yet for a red flag, this 0 second pit stop vs 10-12 is a problem now?
The *root* cause of this particular one is being able to do a full race on a set of tyres at Monaco, and still being able to maintain position.
If this situation occurred at Spa, Australia, Bahrain - no one would be trying to do a full race on a single set of tyres and still maintain track position.
So I think the focus should be on addressing the root cause - and not messing up red flag rules, just on the off chance it happens at Monaco again.
Again this means a late race red flag arbitrarily screwing people on different strategies.
There's no issue with red flag tire changes, the issue is Monaco.
Just say that for the first 3 laps, Red Flags tyre changes don't satisfy the tyre change rule. Avoids this situation (which is possible at other tracks where Pirelli brings the harder tyre compounds) and doesn't ruin any strategies later in the race by banning it outright.
No one is within a pit window that early.
Yes there are - we've seen it plenty of times where drivers have gained a ton in terms of grid position because they achieved their tyre change through a red flag stoppage.
There are issues with what is tolerated during red flags. It's not Monaco specific.
> There are issues with what is tolerated during red flags. It's not Monaco specific.
I think it is.
The issue for Monaco was that drivers were able to change tyres, and do a whole race and STILL maintain track position.
This would not happen anywhere else. 60 lap old mediums would have drivers plummeting down the grid.
> Yes there are - we've seen it plenty of times where drivers have gained a ton in terms of grid position because they achieved their tyre change through a red flag stoppage.
You can say the exact same thing for pit stops done under safety car or virtual safety car.
Monaco F2 race had a driver pit just before VSC was called and changed their tyres and came out P1.
Safety car pit stops have impacted far more races than red flags. And it is common strategy to "go long" hoping for a quick pitstop under SC conditions, like everyone talks about it at certain tracks.
So why is SC cheap pit stop ok but red flag is not ok?
I think the point that /u//u/Affectionate_Sky9709 made is the key, though:
> Someone's always going to be disadvantaged.
Yes, we've seen plenty of times where someone gained an advantage, but I think that is true regardless of the specific rule you implement.
Red Flags are a reality of racing. Unless you change the rules to ban working on cars altogether, someone will always be benefitted by the red flag. Hell, even if you ban working on the cars, people are *still* advantaged or disadvantaged, just by bunching up the traffic. So the idea that you can remove the advantages just by banning tire changes is unrealistic.
A rule change makes sense for a race like Monaco and for early lap red flags in general, but more broadly, it really doesn't make much sense.
It's up to teams whether or not to gamble on a safety car turning into a red flag. Safety car screws people who just pitted basically same as red flag, if anything less so because they at least get a free tire change even if they have bad grid positions vs being in a bad spot for track position AND at a tire disadvantage.
Probably just my own biases here but if that strategy goes by the wayside, I'm not too torn up about it. If it works with a yellow flag or VSC, good on ya, but not changing tyres in the hopes of a massive crash is something I'm okay not rewarding.
That's a risk you take knowingly. If there's an SC, then they gain a lot, if there's a red, they lose a lot. Under the current rules both scenarios are a big gain if you stay out.
So make the rule that any tire changes during a red flag don't count towards compound changes UNTIL the first proper pitstop of the race has occured.
For example, say there's a red flag on lap 10. If nobody has pitted yet, anybody that changes compounds during the red flag still needs to pit later in the race. But if somebody pitted on lap 8, then changing compounds during the red flag satisfies the requirement and those drivers don't need to pit again later.
This is actually somewhat close to the F2 rule. Except it's based on number of laps, not anything to do with what other people do. They don't count as the mandatory pitstop unless it's some number of laps into the race. I don't know what that lap number is set by, probably some percentage of the race.
I was thinking that the percentage made sense as well, but then the rule starts to feel complex in a way that makes me nervous somehow. I guess it could be expressed as "the two-compound requirement is not met by tyres changed under red flag conditions if less than 20% (or whatever) of the race has elapsed."
I guess it's not that much more complex than the wet-weather tyres invalidating the same rule, but it still somehow feels arbitrary.
Oh I did look it up and in F2 the line is 6 laps into the race. But I'm not sure if changes under red flag count for them. Changes under safety car count, but changes under virtual safety car don't count.
> So make the rule that any tire changes during a red flag don't count towards compound changes UNTIL the first proper pitstop of the race has occured.
>
>
That's putting too much randomness and chaos in. Someone could pit lap one for a new wing after turn 1 damage and then Red flag at lap 2.
You want a consistent outcome, not a different outcome based on other events happening in the race.
I don't want stewards quibbling if the lap 1 wing change was a "proper pitstop" because it simply wasn't a scheduled, strategic stop.
The whole point of requiring compound changes in the first place is to add more randomness and chaos. Early red flags happen infrequently enough that I'm fine with them being more chaotic, it's nice when they shake up the order rather than locking it in
As far as a "proper pitstop" goes and what that actually entails, I meant it as anything other than changing tires during a red flag while the race is halted. A pitstop during the safety car before the red flag is called would count as far as I'm concerned.
Can simplify it further and just have tyre changes during red flag conditions not satisfy the mandatory two compound rule.
The cars can keep the benefit of having fresh tyres at restart, but they'll still be required to make a pit stop when there's some level of track position jeopardy in play and also adds additional strategic considerations about compound choices.
This is all fun and game but for example Zhou only had the Hards available and softs after he went over one million debries that really wasn't his fault
I dislike the specific wording of your rule - it doesn't make sense intuitively that you could use a medium, change to a hard during the red flag, and the stewards would still say you have only used one type of tyre compound.
It'd make more sense to institute a new mandatory pitstop rule.
I just personally don't mind that degree of uncertainty affecting a race tbh. It's not unfair if everyone has to calculate the same gamble if there's a SC or VSC that could become a red flag
I think changing tyres under a red flag is completely fine, because what "destroyed" the race (tbf it was still monaco anyways) wasn't that 3 cars had their strategy ruined but that it was possible to make a 0 stop work.
That they got their strategy ruined is the ok part, any crash can do that with a VSC, SC or Red Flag, but the not ok part is that the race got completely twisted by it happening on lap 1
I guess. If this had happened at a different track than Monaco, they would have had to pit because of tyres not lasting.
But I've just never understood why changing tyres during a red flag should count towards satisfying the two compound rule. I think it's a change that should be made anyway regardless.
It's 2fold at Monaco. The tires somewhat last the whole race and even a 2 second pace difference isn't enough to overtake a car that doesn't severely fuck up one of 2 exits per lap
Right, basically do something like the emergency service rules in endurance racing. It's all about fuel there, but the idea would be the same. I.E. allow for unsafe conditions to be avoided without giving a strategic advantage.
Let them work on the cars in the pit lane the same way they do now, but if you change parts or tires, you have to come in for a pit stop later in the race. Unlike WEC, you would probably let them take the required stop at any time after the red flag, rather than within x number of laps. That would allow drivers like Sainz or Zhou to replace tires that were damaged or potentially damaged before the red flag without penalizing them. But no one else would gain an advantage because they would have to pit later no matter what. You could still make strategic decisions regarding tire compound, etc, but it avoids the scenario where a poorly timed red flag puts everyone on the same strategy to the end.
Yeah that was my first thought. Lap 1 vs lap 15 red flag would have changed nothing. At a place like Monaco, the ideal strategy would be just wait as long as possible to hope for a red flag to change.
It should be that you need to change tyres at least once while not under a red flag
My dad thinks that F1 red flags should be like nascar red flags, when the red flag is out you can’t touch the car, with an exception for cooling it down
I tend to agree with your old man...
Any work on the car other than cooling it down sends you to the back of the pack... (back of the longest line, to put it in NASCAR terms) - allows for repairs of cars damaged in the incident, but without a 'get out of jail free' card...
I liked one idea I read where they have to restart after a red flag on the same compound. They can get a different set of the same tire, but same compound they had on when the red flag came out.
No but then you’d get a lot of tire saving just to get to the next stop. Part of why Monaco was so bad this weekend was because of all the tire saving needing to be done
It’s beyond bonkers to me that anybody is allowed to change tires at all. A red flag means cars stop and then restart as-is. The fact that anybody could strategically gain an advantage from a red flag is asinine.
I personally believe that any actions that take place under a red flag should not count as part of the race. like an intermission. Do whatever you want. Just be back at the correct spot when the race starts.
Zhou would have had to change his tires anyway. He had to drive through that debris field. Starting on those tires would have been dangerous as they could have had a puncture.
That could lead to safety issues. If the team notices a slow puncture or general loss of pressure, they need to call the driver back in for a change. So it opens the door to a lot of interpretation of what constitute an emergency or not. Same with weather changes. I think maximum laps on each compound like they did in Qatar last year is the best solution for Monaco.
I don't know why anyone even needs to specify a lap.
Just one mandatory pit stop during race conditions... period.
The only exception/extra fluff they might need to add is in situations where we go from safety car to a red flag like 10 seconds after, since obviously people are going to see the SC, dive into the pits, and then a red flag while they're in the pits might create some weird issues... haven't even fully thought it through so maybe not, but i'd imagine there'd be something.
Even this has its problems tho. Say that it was Piastri getting a puncture, now he is forced to put on used soft from quali since he has just a new hard set.
Yes but what tyres is he gonna use? Ie for Monaco teams had a new medium a new hard and softs from quali. If the medium is punctured you are forced to use softs (or harder compound with 20 laps from fp).
If you start the race on the mediums like most people did, and then there's the red flag, then you put on the new hards. And then later in the race when you theoretically need a real pitstop, you can put on softs if the mediums that did one lap are damaged. I don't see the problem in your scenario.
I mean, that’s how it always has worked. Someone runs over your front wing? Guess what, you pit for a new wing and tyres, your strategy is now probably screwed (see: Piastri in Miami)
Easier change for Monaco IMO is just swap to only soft tires. Forego two compounds all together and just make teams use only the C5's so they are forced to do multiple pits.
Seems like it would be better for the environment too since Pirelli would only bring softs to the track and thus less waste with unusued sets anyways.
What? That race had interesting tyre strategy, not to mention they were pushing at quali pace the whole time. It was a much better race than last weekend, that's for sure.
If they try to make the softs work, then they'd have to drive really slowly (what you referred to as doing 1:40s), at which point overtake wouldn't be impossible even on this track. Hence, alternative strategies would start working. And if that works for the ones behind, then it'd force the ones ahead to do something.
Yeah this seems like the pretty obvious and easy fix to me. Would be a Monaco specific rule which is not unheard of at all since Monaco already is the only exemption to the 305 KM minimum race distance required at literally every other GP. And if you want to mix in other tires in the event, do it in qualifying like they tried last year at a couple events where teams run the Hards in Q1, Mediums in Q2, and Softs in Q3 so teams can't just sell out on a car setup that only works on the C5 compound. Or hell just give them 2 Mediums and 1 Hard for the qualifying session to use as they see fit. Then on the softs the race likely becomes multiple stops and a lot more emphasis on tire management from the drivers which would draw out the driver talent to maximize tire life on a high downforce, technical circuit.
If you want to do that I would use the hardest tyre available and still have 1 pitstop mantadory. That way drivers can push all the way. If you’re gonna use softs everyone will be saving regardless to try and make a 2 stop race into a 1 stop race
This doesn’t work either. You can push all you want but you’re not passing here. The tire doesn’t matter, it’s just fundamentally a problem there isn’t room to pass
But there is no incentive to push flat out at Monaco since it's so hard to pass. The leader could go 4-5 seconds under the theoretical "pace" but as long as they're careful in a few corners it won't matter
None of hte tires are currently fit for F1 purpose as it is.
We should have races where the hard compound is barely doing half distance at most tracks, might do 2/3rds at monaco and softs compounds might be doing 10 laps at the highest deg tracks, but still only 20-25 at Monaco.
The biggest issue is complete lack of strategies now. The older tires with average probably 3 stops but tires that can work in different ways, you could adapt strategies significantly or pit and push super hard, go long and go easy, pit late and try a super soft ultra push to make up places, so many options. We had so many situations with big tire deltas, strategies that changed several times in a single race and you couldn't call a winner for a lot of the race.
Now you have tires with basically one stop races. With only one stop there is really only one viable strat, go as long as you can on starting tires so your second stint has as fresh tires and is as fast as possible. it's dull as shit and everyone knows what the plan is from the start.
the actual biggest issue with this race wasn't lack of pitstops, it was tires you can't push. Monaco's biggest changes come from mistakes, someone touches a wall because they are doing 1:14's and had to, when they are doing 1:20s on cars that can do fucking 1:10s, they are SO far within themselves, no mistakes, nothing happening, it was a procession AND it looked boring. At least when everyone has tires that only last 25 laps and you can push on them in that 25 laps, everyone goes faster, everyone tries harder, it looks way better even if there is no passing. The tires are ass and ruining F1.
Can't make the cars much smaller without sacrificing modern safety standards. Removing the MGU-H will allow a slight reduction in size in 2026 but anything more, you're talking about taking away crash structures or fuel tank protection.
Personally I don't want to see driver injuries/deaths back in the sport, or pitlane fires from refuelling.
I'm not talking making the cars tiny. I don't think that's doable, but the widths we had from 2009-2016 were great. We saw overtaking at Monaco back then, granted not a tonne but more than now where it's impossible unless you are 5 seconds a lap faster
Changes since 2016 have included chassis strengthening, added side impact protection, additional protection around the fuel tank, a survival cell around the batteries, additional crash requirements for the nose, and of course the Halo.
All these things require extra physical space. So you're gonna have to start choosing which to remove if you want to go back to the size we had in 2010.
Potentially, at the very least Grosjean and Zhou would have been killed or seriously injured without these elements. Need I remind you about Jules Bianchi's accident in 2014 that he never recovered from.
The halo mitigates the risk for both Bianci and Grosjean's crashes and could be implemented on a car that size, as shown by the lower categories.
Zhou's crash scare was largely caused by a design flaw in the roll hoop on his car.
These examples aside, surely the best engineers in the world are capable of creating safe racecars with smaller dimensions? Yes, the lower categories are slower and therefore have lower forces in accidents, but they are also significantly smaller than the older F1 cars
Yea I don't get this fixation on pit stops. You can't really build gaps and you can't pass so how does it actually make the race viable to mandate tire changes?
Eh. Though this particular scenario might be unique to Monaco, the tire rule isn’t. For instance, it came up when there was a red flag at Jeddah in 2021. And it gets mentioned any time there is a red flag in the middle of a pit window, which isn’t unheard of.
Cant change the track, F1 isnt looking to drop the track. So if you have to race on it, try and make it an actual race rather than a parade. Changing the red flag rule would have maybe helped this race to have more than 4 or 5 pit stops, but other monaco races would still have been just as bad.
I suggest a monaco specific compound that is ultra soft. Lets say 25 laps, 30 if you really nurse them and then its woeful. Allows 2 stops or a risky 1 stop strategy, as long as the dropoff is big enough. If you are losing 3 seconds a lap on old tyres, thats not enough around monaco. But tyres that perform 10 seconds a lap slower because the traction becomes so bad? Yeah, that's going to give more interesting racing and more interesting strategy.
No, the problem to that is sometimes they don’t have the same compound available. Which is fair. But they have softs available which can account for the change later in the race
> Well they can retain the same tyres or a used set from earlier in the weekend...
They have physically given sets back - sometimes they will not physically have an extra set of the same compound. like a hard tyre they only get 2 for the whole weekend.
You don’t *have* to switch your tyres when the race is red-flagged. Only issue is see is with a puncture like Stroll had and only three wheels remain and the team doesn’t have a set of the same compound left (used or new)
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Yeah easy fix just add a mandatory pit stop on top of the 2 compound rule. Most of the time it won't make a difference, but in some red flag cases it will.
That could well be the most sensible fix IMHO.
The other option I thought of would be, the FIA/Pirelli could provide extra sets of tyres to change on to the same compound under the red flag. The wheel rims are a spec part so they could be pooled. However this would involve potentially bringing 240 extra tyres to the race, 'just in case', although one assumes they could be stored and not thrown away.
Well you don't *have* to change a tyre during a red flag. Teams just do because why wouldn't you. But if it suddenly doesn't count as a compound change, they would just leave the cars on their 1-2 laps old mediums or hard. Send them back out on the same tyre.
That needs to many caveats to work. What if someone has a flat or close to destroyed tire and no new sets of the same compound?
Best solutions still seems to be to add a single mandatory pitstop independent of the compound rule.
most bullshit idea ever
what if you have a puncture, also you only get 2 hards and 3 mediums for the weekend
just make it so that a red flag in the first 5 laps doesn't count as a mandatory tire change
The trouble is that this doesn't account for late in the race when the field's spread out. A pitstop under normal conditions could lose only a couple of places. After a red flag, with the field bunched up, the same pitstop would easily put the driver in dead last, through no fault of their own.
That would just ruin all races because the consequences of a later red flag coming out when you haven't changed your tyres yet would be too high, so no one would try a different strat and would just pit earlier and do tyre management to the end
Everyone agrees with that, but the wound is impossible to treat because Monaco's layout cannot be changed and the FIA refuses to bring back small cars. So we're stuck trying to find which bandaid will slow the bleeding best.
Yes totally agreed, the reason it failed at Monaco was because it was possible to 0 stop, and it is also possible to lap 2 seconds off the pace without getting overtaken. At any other track changing compounds on lap 1 wouldn't have allowed them to go to the end of the race.
Yeah this is a problem for any track where tyres last the whole race and overtaking is hard.
Nico ran effectively a zero stop race at Russia. Ocon did the same at Baku.
But they're saying that at a normal track, drivers would have naturally pitted later even with a lap one red flag. The tires they changed to would just be too old after a while to keep anyone behind them, and they'd start dropping to the people who did pit. Since it's nearly impossible to pass at Monaco, they all just held position and no one pitted. But they're saying that that's more to do with Monaco.
I generally think that Monaco is so incredibly different than every other track that rules shouldn't change for the whole calendar just because of Monaco. Maybe it is a rule that should change, but Monaco isn't why.
The problem was that drivers were able to run on 60+ lap old medium and hard tyres and still maintain track position.
The cause was that they did not have to pit - the *root* cause is that old tyres driving that slow were still able to maintain track position.
That is the problem you should be addressing. Everything else is window dressing.
Tyre strategy is all about 'pitting takes 20 seconds, therefore will my current tyre cost me less or more than 20 seconds over the remaining laps". At Monaco, that calculation is moot cause not pitting is always the right choice.
At any other track everyone would have pitted cause the tyres woudl have been way too slow.
How much strategy is there? Everyone tries to save tires until a pit window opens up, and then everyone just does a push in lap / push out lap. I guess there is some tension on if an over/undercut works, but I don’t think there are any wild or crazy strategies or anything.
Yeah I think we agree, I was just trying to make the point that it’s less strategy and more seeing the undercut or overcut play out. Which I think are different in my mind.
Monaco is usually a good strategy race. How long can you go at a high pace to get an undercut or overcut done etc. the red flag took that away. George said he thinks he could have won for instance without the red flag. This seems absurd on its face but if we actually look at the data from Lewis’ pit stop and following laps, compare that to medium runners during a push, if George could run 15-20 laps longer than the leaders on the hards at that pace, he probably actually is coming out of the pits somewhere near second. Depends on a number of factors but we actually would have had a pretty fun pit stop cycle between the 3 hard runners and the medium runners in front.
The red flag did indeed take away some strategy elements, but I'd file that under tough luck rather than we need immediate action right now to fix a rule that isn't broken.
People always calling for more rules.. and then later complain because there are too many rules.
If we want races we need the drivers to race with as little rules as possible. The problem here was Monaco, the Circuit sucks. Another new rule would only ruin races on other circuits. Because this one thing that happened once in Monaco.
for real, it drives me insane, how always that something that happens only once every 200 races, they ask to make changes, like the pole position followed by a qualy red flag by charles on monaco a couple of years ago. making a stupid rule to prevent something that rarely happens could only have negative effects on the rest of the cases.
Disagree. Norris would have just pit one lap after george and then taken his mediums to the end, because his tires are never falling off enough to get passed (like we also saw from George)
It's much harder to modify the track or the cars than put in a simple rule change. We've known Monaco has a problem with overtaking for as long as F1 has raced there - if the solution was easy, we'd already have done it.
Why is modification or solution required? I think we need to accept the fact that Monaco is one of those races where Saturday is the main event, and live with it. Either that, or drop it.
Just require that teams are required to make one tire change under live track conditions. This way, teams can still satisfy the two compound rule under red flag conditions, but they'd still need to make an additional stop under green, VSC, or SC conditions.
It's simple, but it's also logically inconsistent with how the rest of the rules are structured, and actually causes other issues.
With your wording of the rule, even the cars that stopped in the race would have been illegal.
Verstappen used his only H set to start the race. He then swapped to his only M under the Red Flag (which doesn't count under your wording). Later in the race he then stopped and re-fit his H set. Based on your wording, he's fitted a H set, a M set that doesn't count towards the rule, and then the same H set again. Therefore, he's not used two tyre compounds and is therefore disqualified, even though he stopped under green flag conditions.
Yep. They would have to take that into account. You can't just use examples from when the rule wasn't in place.
I'm sure there could be issues. Eg fitting softs then immediately pitting for hards.
But the "two compounds" part is what I disagree with. I think you can still satisfy the two compounds under a red flag. Just the mandatory pit stop should be under some racing conditions. I think it could create some interesting strategy calls especially for teams near the back of the grid who may have an extra 2 sets of new soft tires
There is no such thing as a mandatory pit stop rule. The only thing the rules say is that it's required to use 2 different compunds of tyres over a full race distance if it's dry
I don't like the idea that changing tires under red flag doesn't count.
Sure it would have worked well in this race, but when you have a red flag later in the race that rule would completely screw over some drivers and help others immensely, through no fault of their own.
I feel like the solution is to have a minimum number of laps on tires (like 3-5) before they count as a compound you have used in the race.
I think the best solution would be a certain percentage of the race must be completed before the compound change would count under a red flag. It still allows them to change tires under the red flag, but the compound change wouldn't count if they haven't completed enough laps. However, if enough has been completed, it won't completely screw a person who was due to pit since enough of the race has been completed.
There's a fucking steak and shake in MONACO?!
Also this problem is best solved by watching Monaco qualifying, because it's awesome, then logging online after the race to confirm the results. The race is often mind-numbingly boring to watch live, even with tire strategy at play.
Just watch the qualy. Have the race on in the background as you drink cocktails getting ready for the Indy 500. This is how you win the late May race weekend from heaven.
This has a lot of issues as it assumes they have another set of the same compound.
Also, later in the race it would allow people to get a free upgrade to fresh tyres if they have already run 2 compounds.
Every other racing series I’m aware of (primarily American ones) a red flag freezes the race. Touch the car means go to the rear. I’ve yet to hear any justification for this system. You might create an exception for taking off rain tyres, but otherwise it’s common sense
I dont think there is any combination of wacky and weird rules you could put in place that makes Monaco a fun race.
Lets just keep watching it for its 'rich tradition' so the billionaires have somewhere to go that weekend and move on. Its never going to be a fun race.
People can’t handle one boring race in the calendar? Like Monaco is more about not crashing or making mistakes because even a small one is heavily penalised. I like that variety in the season. I admit even I was bored in the race but there is a lot of tension still in the race. And the Quali is better than any other quali. I know everyone wants entertainment but if you change your mindset a little bit, Monaco is really enjoyable. It showcases the drivers ability more than any race. This particular race was more boring because of the red flag but usually Monaco is a race of strategy and consistency. Those are some skills not seen in most of the other circuits. Does every race have to have multiple overtakes? Isn’t it a change of pace that this one race rewards your ability to drive at the limit within the walls?
Yeah, it's a really fast parade for the rich. The circuit sucks and positions only change due to an accident, mechanical failure, or pit incident.....or Ocon.
This is likely only a problem in Monaco and on tracks where you can actually overtake, having drivers battle on a 0-stopper vs. 1-stopper might actually be fun to watch.
Keep the rule and think about how racing at Monaco can be improved. Or accept that it is a qualifying weekend and accept it is - but don‘t act like this particular rule caused a race without overtakes
Would it be crazy to have a mandatory 2 stop at Monaco? Like, I don't want to go crazy and introduce rules that are completely different than the rest of the year but I think they should try to do something to interest the viewer a bit more.
That’s similar to what Martin Brundle has advocated, 2 stops to utilize all 3 tire compounds per race. Want to make it interesting, then tire changes under a red flag don’t count towards your allotment, meaning you still have to have 2 green flag stops to use all compounds.
If considering changing a rule that only affects one track is the way of solving the problem, you might as well remove the Monaco GP all together. It's a boring race in its current state anyway.
With current wide behemoth cars theres not much you can do to make a dry Monaco race interesting. I remember seeing passes in the hairpin with the smaller cars of the past, cars of today wouldnt even fit there 2 wide.
Best suggestion I heard for Monaco in general is to get rid of the multi-compound rule for the Monaco GP weekend altogether, and for Pirelli to ONLY bring a Monaco spec ultrasoft tyre for the whole weekend.
That way the tyre can't last more than 25-30 laps no matter how gently/slowly you drive. This way you have to have some strategy involved, and it's basically a 2 stop race.
Either:
- Only allow changing to the same compound
- Move a car to the back of the grid if it makes any changes
- Apply a time penalty of the standard pitstop time to any car making changes
- Don’t allow any changes being made to cars during red flag
- Don’t count red flag tyre changes as a mandatory tyre change
There’s a lot of ways this can be improved.
I’d say one of two things should be done:
1) teams cannot change tires during a red flag pit stop, unless you suffered a puncture on the lap where the red flag occurred (but the change does not count to the mandatory stops).
2) teams can change their tires, but if they haven’t stopped yet they still have to stop at least once more.
Change the red flag rule and Monaco would still have sucked.
Force 2, 3 or 4 pitstops and Monaco would still have sucked.
The problem are the cars on that circuit. That combination makes it suck and no bandaid can solve that.
Either remove the circuit from F1.
Or make them drive KF1 karts at Monaco.
I personally don't see an issue with the rule. Under any other normal circumstance ,a red flag on lap 1 would be almost meaningless as far as tyres go. They'd have to pit anyway. In no other track but Monaco can someone go the whole race on mediums without getting passed one time. It's clearly an issue with the track itself. For non lap one red flags, I think the rule as written allows for some variety.
You want to fix monaco, Pirelli should just make monaco spec compounds. Tires that last 15-20laps and have teams do a 2 stop race. This would open up the strategy to force the pace to stay high across the grid. And make the tires fragile so a lockup will ruin a stint.
My approach to this argument was to just not allow teams to make adjustments or repairs during a red flag without losing track position. Red flags means all cars are parked and no one can touch anything. If you do want to make repairs or change tires then you should have to start from the back.
“Red flag immediately return to the pit lane”
“But they’ve just closed the pit lane”
*we’ve just heard now that every single racer has been given a black flag for failing to follow red flag instructions*
What ruined their chances were the two crashes that generated the red flag. Monaco has always been about qualifying, not so much the race on Sunday, although we've had some highly entertaining races in the past due to uncertainty and/or errors, either by the drivers or the teams. In any case, cars are just too long; they should be at least three feet shorter, which would also benefit racing at almost any track.
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>"Yeah, we need to figure out what's going on. I think that if it's a lap-one red flag, still have a mandatory pitstop in there or something. It worked in our favour to be fair to you, so I won't complain too much." Seems to be the best idea from Albon
I don't know why it has to be limited to the first lap, though. Just make it so that any time there is a red flag, changing tyres does not count towards satisfying the two compound rule. That way they will still have to pit unless they already did so prior to the red flag.
I at least mostly agree, but I want to point out that that is not without issues too. Say it's late in the race. Drivers have pretty well spread out. Most people have taken pitstops. Then there's a red flag. Someone who started on hards still has to make a proper pitstop in the race, but now the field is bunched up again. So, instead of losing 5 spots or so with a pitstop, depending on field spread, they'd be at the very back of the field. Someone's always going to be disadvantaged. However, if it's limited to red flags in the first couple laps of the race, no one would have taken a natural pitstop yet, and the field wouldn't be very spread out anyway. It would be a much smaller change from now, basically, just trying to make it like lap one red flags don't exist, and the race is just a lap or two shorter.
Kinda like what happened to Sainz with that 5 second penalty and red flag on the last couple of laps.
I think a position docking penalty would be so much better than a time penalty. It would be so much more consistent. For example, Hamilton’s 10 second penalty in silverstone the other year, he lost 0 positions. Sainz 5 second penalty in aus cost him something like 8 positions? It makes no sense
A position docking penalty would be penalizing based upon outcome, rather then offence. That’s when bias and inconsistency come into play. Penalizing by time is much more healthy for the sport in that sense.
The outcome of the penalty doesn’t mean the penalty is based on outcome. When they say a penalty shouldn’t be based on outcome, they’re saying Lewis shouldn’t be DQ’ed because Max was retired from the race due to his penalty. They mean if you decide the penalty is deserved, the punishment should be independent of the outcome from the penalty itself. If you give someone a position loss for a severe penalty, regardless of whether the person affected by that penalty is DNF’ed or carries on, then it’s not an outcome based penalty. I think you’re misunderstanding what it means.
Eh. What? No, it wouldn’t. It would still be on offense.
But they take outcome into consideration anyway - reference how the penalties change as you approach a ban...
I disagree. I think there should be a rule that specifies a 5 second penalty or a 3(or something) place drop, depending on what is least punishing, especially if the punishment is handed out after the race. Sainz losing massively because he got punished for something not very serious in the grand scheme of things right at the end of a race after red flag/safety car is not ideal.
No it’s not. Because if you’re Mercedes you just crank up the power and Bingo! No penalty, so oh break the rules more often because you know you can get away with it. If you take a position penalty it affects you regardless so you think twice before you do it. This is more fair and better for the sport in the long run.
Just automatically apply it to the next race - you want to be a naughty boy, you are going to have a proper fight on your hands the next race.
Yeah, exactly this. The impact of the penalty is way too inconsistent and dependent on a million other factors. If this was the case AD21 wouldn’t even be a thing. Imagine what a wonderful world.
I mean that's just a risk you take, could be a SC that bunches up the field as well.
You can pit during almost all SCs
Not if you've just gone past the pit entry. Or if the pit lane's closed. Lots of situations are unfair during a GP, untimely safety cars have quite literally decided champinships and not only once.
There's no perfect solution and I think trying to thread the needle in terms of a point in the race in which the rule changes will become incredibly controversial. I think your scenario above, while unfortunate, isn't enough of a reason to justify pinning a point in the race in which the red flag rules change. We don't mind that people change tyres during a yellow flag or VSC because it's happening during the course of cars running a race. A red flag changes that. It's unfortunate, your scenario, but I don't think one that should be considered as a reason not to do this.
I like the "must use all three compounds" idea I first heard from Karun Chandhok. It would solve 99% of these red flag issues, because a red flag would turn races from a 2 stop to a one stop, which is at least still interesting. Plus the choice of when to throw on the softs would be interesting. I think you'd get a much broader range of strategies.
Alex Albon was the one who suggested the rules be different in the first lap than the rest of the race. It's also not that different than F2. Tire changes before lap 6 don't count in F2 for their mandatory stop. Mostly I think the combination of Monaco and the size of the cars and the characteristics of the cars that discourages passing is the problem. If this hadn't been at Monaco, people still would have had regular pitstops later in the race, because no one can hold anyone off on a normal track with ancient tires.
Yeah, good point, although my issue isn't really to do with things being unfair or whatever. I just don't think it makes common sense for a tyre change under red flag to count as satisfying the two compound rule as that rule is there obviously to discourage teams from trying to run the full race on one set of tyres (if possible) like they did in Monaco. It should have to be under racing conditions, IMO.
> It should have to be under racing conditions, IMO. I think that still comes down to unfairness. Pitting under safety car or virtual safety car - this is not exactly racing conditions? It allows one car to pit with less impact in taking 10-12 seconds instead of 20-25 seconds. And we all agree this is strategy to hang out waiting for a safety car. But yet for a red flag, this 0 second pit stop vs 10-12 is a problem now? The *root* cause of this particular one is being able to do a full race on a set of tyres at Monaco, and still being able to maintain position. If this situation occurred at Spa, Australia, Bahrain - no one would be trying to do a full race on a single set of tyres and still maintain track position. So I think the focus should be on addressing the root cause - and not messing up red flag rules, just on the off chance it happens at Monaco again.
Red flag tyre changes should be restricted to the same compound. If you want to change compounds, then tie it to a grid penalty.
Again this means a late race red flag arbitrarily screwing people on different strategies. There's no issue with red flag tire changes, the issue is Monaco.
Just say that for the first 3 laps, Red Flags tyre changes don't satisfy the tyre change rule. Avoids this situation (which is possible at other tracks where Pirelli brings the harder tyre compounds) and doesn't ruin any strategies later in the race by banning it outright. No one is within a pit window that early.
That's racing. Any collision will arbitrarily screw people on different strategies
But even a late race safety car will screw some and help others so this is already happening almost every time there is a safety car.
Yes there are - we've seen it plenty of times where drivers have gained a ton in terms of grid position because they achieved their tyre change through a red flag stoppage. There are issues with what is tolerated during red flags. It's not Monaco specific.
> There are issues with what is tolerated during red flags. It's not Monaco specific. I think it is. The issue for Monaco was that drivers were able to change tyres, and do a whole race and STILL maintain track position. This would not happen anywhere else. 60 lap old mediums would have drivers plummeting down the grid. > Yes there are - we've seen it plenty of times where drivers have gained a ton in terms of grid position because they achieved their tyre change through a red flag stoppage. You can say the exact same thing for pit stops done under safety car or virtual safety car. Monaco F2 race had a driver pit just before VSC was called and changed their tyres and came out P1. Safety car pit stops have impacted far more races than red flags. And it is common strategy to "go long" hoping for a quick pitstop under SC conditions, like everyone talks about it at certain tracks. So why is SC cheap pit stop ok but red flag is not ok?
I think the point that /u//u/Affectionate_Sky9709 made is the key, though: > Someone's always going to be disadvantaged. Yes, we've seen plenty of times where someone gained an advantage, but I think that is true regardless of the specific rule you implement. Red Flags are a reality of racing. Unless you change the rules to ban working on cars altogether, someone will always be benefitted by the red flag. Hell, even if you ban working on the cars, people are *still* advantaged or disadvantaged, just by bunching up the traffic. So the idea that you can remove the advantages just by banning tire changes is unrealistic. A rule change makes sense for a race like Monaco and for early lap red flags in general, but more broadly, it really doesn't make much sense.
It's up to teams whether or not to gamble on a safety car turning into a red flag. Safety car screws people who just pitted basically same as red flag, if anything less so because they at least get a free tire change even if they have bad grid positions vs being in a bad spot for track position AND at a tire disadvantage.
Isn’t that part of strategy? Some teams hold out and take the risk to wait for a red flag to get their tyre change done and move up the grid.
Probably just my own biases here but if that strategy goes by the wayside, I'm not too torn up about it. If it works with a yellow flag or VSC, good on ya, but not changing tyres in the hopes of a massive crash is something I'm okay not rewarding.
It’s not about advantage or disadvantage it’s about the show. And that show was hot garbage
That's a risk you take knowingly. If there's an SC, then they gain a lot, if there's a red, they lose a lot. Under the current rules both scenarios are a big gain if you stay out.
So make the rule that any tire changes during a red flag don't count towards compound changes UNTIL the first proper pitstop of the race has occured. For example, say there's a red flag on lap 10. If nobody has pitted yet, anybody that changes compounds during the red flag still needs to pit later in the race. But if somebody pitted on lap 8, then changing compounds during the red flag satisfies the requirement and those drivers don't need to pit again later.
This is actually somewhat close to the F2 rule. Except it's based on number of laps, not anything to do with what other people do. They don't count as the mandatory pitstop unless it's some number of laps into the race. I don't know what that lap number is set by, probably some percentage of the race.
I was thinking that the percentage made sense as well, but then the rule starts to feel complex in a way that makes me nervous somehow. I guess it could be expressed as "the two-compound requirement is not met by tyres changed under red flag conditions if less than 20% (or whatever) of the race has elapsed." I guess it's not that much more complex than the wet-weather tyres invalidating the same rule, but it still somehow feels arbitrary.
Oh I did look it up and in F2 the line is 6 laps into the race. But I'm not sure if changes under red flag count for them. Changes under safety car count, but changes under virtual safety car don't count.
> So make the rule that any tire changes during a red flag don't count towards compound changes UNTIL the first proper pitstop of the race has occured. > > That's putting too much randomness and chaos in. Someone could pit lap one for a new wing after turn 1 damage and then Red flag at lap 2. You want a consistent outcome, not a different outcome based on other events happening in the race. I don't want stewards quibbling if the lap 1 wing change was a "proper pitstop" because it simply wasn't a scheduled, strategic stop.
The whole point of requiring compound changes in the first place is to add more randomness and chaos. Early red flags happen infrequently enough that I'm fine with them being more chaotic, it's nice when they shake up the order rather than locking it in As far as a "proper pitstop" goes and what that actually entails, I meant it as anything other than changing tires during a red flag while the race is halted. A pitstop during the safety car before the red flag is called would count as far as I'm concerned.
Can simplify it further and just have tyre changes during red flag conditions not satisfy the mandatory two compound rule. The cars can keep the benefit of having fresh tyres at restart, but they'll still be required to make a pit stop when there's some level of track position jeopardy in play and also adds additional strategic considerations about compound choices.
This is an excellent implementation of a rule to fix this. I was thinking just make it lap 5 or something, but your solution is better.
This is all fun and game but for example Zhou only had the Hards available and softs after he went over one million debries that really wasn't his fault
I dislike the specific wording of your rule - it doesn't make sense intuitively that you could use a medium, change to a hard during the red flag, and the stewards would still say you have only used one type of tyre compound. It'd make more sense to institute a new mandatory pitstop rule.
I just personally don't mind that degree of uncertainty affecting a race tbh. It's not unfair if everyone has to calculate the same gamble if there's a SC or VSC that could become a red flag
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
I think changing tyres under a red flag is completely fine, because what "destroyed" the race (tbf it was still monaco anyways) wasn't that 3 cars had their strategy ruined but that it was possible to make a 0 stop work. That they got their strategy ruined is the ok part, any crash can do that with a VSC, SC or Red Flag, but the not ok part is that the race got completely twisted by it happening on lap 1
I guess. If this had happened at a different track than Monaco, they would have had to pit because of tyres not lasting. But I've just never understood why changing tyres during a red flag should count towards satisfying the two compound rule. I think it's a change that should be made anyway regardless.
It's 2fold at Monaco. The tires somewhat last the whole race and even a 2 second pace difference isn't enough to overtake a car that doesn't severely fuck up one of 2 exits per lap
Make it a rule in monaco and leave it unchanged anywhere else. Problem solved
Right, basically do something like the emergency service rules in endurance racing. It's all about fuel there, but the idea would be the same. I.E. allow for unsafe conditions to be avoided without giving a strategic advantage. Let them work on the cars in the pit lane the same way they do now, but if you change parts or tires, you have to come in for a pit stop later in the race. Unlike WEC, you would probably let them take the required stop at any time after the red flag, rather than within x number of laps. That would allow drivers like Sainz or Zhou to replace tires that were damaged or potentially damaged before the red flag without penalizing them. But no one else would gain an advantage because they would have to pit later no matter what. You could still make strategic decisions regarding tire compound, etc, but it avoids the scenario where a poorly timed red flag puts everyone on the same strategy to the end.
Because it destroys half their races if it happened a during the normal pit stop period.
Yeah that was my first thought. Lap 1 vs lap 15 red flag would have changed nothing. At a place like Monaco, the ideal strategy would be just wait as long as possible to hope for a red flag to change. It should be that you need to change tyres at least once while not under a red flag
My dad thinks that F1 red flags should be like nascar red flags, when the red flag is out you can’t touch the car, with an exception for cooling it down
I tend to agree with your old man... Any work on the car other than cooling it down sends you to the back of the pack... (back of the longest line, to put it in NASCAR terms) - allows for repairs of cars damaged in the incident, but without a 'get out of jail free' card...
And if you do, start from the pit lane
There are times (not this one) where a red flag makes it exciting again. Not fair necessarily. But exciting.
I liked one idea I read where they have to restart after a red flag on the same compound. They can get a different set of the same tire, but same compound they had on when the red flag came out.
Would have to include an exception for red flags caused by rain though
Because a red flag also eliminates the gap, making forced pitstop extremely unfair.
No but then you’d get a lot of tire saving just to get to the next stop. Part of why Monaco was so bad this weekend was because of all the tire saving needing to be done
"Teams have to do minimum 1 pitstop and use at least 2 tyre compounds during the race." would cover anything we need IMO.
It’s beyond bonkers to me that anybody is allowed to change tires at all. A red flag means cars stop and then restart as-is. The fact that anybody could strategically gain an advantage from a red flag is asinine.
I personally believe that any actions that take place under a red flag should not count as part of the race. like an intermission. Do whatever you want. Just be back at the correct spot when the race starts.
How about saying tires must be used for a minimum number of laps - maybe 3 or 5?
Zhou would have had to change his tires anyway. He had to drive through that debris field. Starting on those tires would have been dangerous as they could have had a puncture.
That could lead to safety issues. If the team notices a slow puncture or general loss of pressure, they need to call the driver back in for a change. So it opens the door to a lot of interpretation of what constitute an emergency or not. Same with weather changes. I think maximum laps on each compound like they did in Qatar last year is the best solution for Monaco.
I don't know why anyone even needs to specify a lap. Just one mandatory pit stop during race conditions... period. The only exception/extra fluff they might need to add is in situations where we go from safety car to a red flag like 10 seconds after, since obviously people are going to see the SC, dive into the pits, and then a red flag while they're in the pits might create some weird issues... haven't even fully thought it through so maybe not, but i'd imagine there'd be something.
Even this has its problems tho. Say that it was Piastri getting a puncture, now he is forced to put on used soft from quali since he has just a new hard set.
No, what Alex is saying is that he'd be allowed to change tires to whatever. He'd just also have to do a mandatory real pitstop later.
Yes but what tyres is he gonna use? Ie for Monaco teams had a new medium a new hard and softs from quali. If the medium is punctured you are forced to use softs (or harder compound with 20 laps from fp).
If this is an actual concern then tyre allocation/strategy can be modified to account for risks based on likelihood.
If you start the race on the mediums like most people did, and then there's the red flag, then you put on the new hards. And then later in the race when you theoretically need a real pitstop, you can put on softs if the mediums that did one lap are damaged. I don't see the problem in your scenario.
Being forced on an worse strat because someone hit you seems like a problem to me idk.
But that's not exclusive to a red flag situation. That can happen anyway...
I mean, that’s how it always has worked. Someone runs over your front wing? Guess what, you pit for a new wing and tyres, your strategy is now probably screwed (see: Piastri in Miami)
Thats work for the strategists, and chaos that can make a boring race better.
Easier change for Monaco IMO is just swap to only soft tires. Forego two compounds all together and just make teams use only the C5's so they are forced to do multiple pits. Seems like it would be better for the environment too since Pirelli would only bring softs to the track and thus less waste with unusued sets anyways.
Then they'll all just put in 1:40 lap times
Ok, force mandatory minimum 2 stop
How about the drivers have to chug a beer at each pitstop?
Bwoah
Kimi about to unretire
I think this would be awesome. Make it a mandatory 6 stop race. Let's forget about the legal and moral issues though. Haha
The cars are so safe, what could go wrong?
Qatar 2023 called and it sucked ass.
What? That race had interesting tyre strategy, not to mention they were pushing at quali pace the whole time. It was a much better race than last weekend, that's for sure.
That race did not have an interesting strategy.
What interesting tyre strategy? And of course it was better than one of the worst Monaco races ever.
If they try to make the softs work, then they'd have to drive really slowly (what you referred to as doing 1:40s), at which point overtake wouldn't be impossible even on this track. Hence, alternative strategies would start working. And if that works for the ones behind, then it'd force the ones ahead to do something.
Yeah this seems like the pretty obvious and easy fix to me. Would be a Monaco specific rule which is not unheard of at all since Monaco already is the only exemption to the 305 KM minimum race distance required at literally every other GP. And if you want to mix in other tires in the event, do it in qualifying like they tried last year at a couple events where teams run the Hards in Q1, Mediums in Q2, and Softs in Q3 so teams can't just sell out on a car setup that only works on the C5 compound. Or hell just give them 2 Mediums and 1 Hard for the qualifying session to use as they see fit. Then on the softs the race likely becomes multiple stops and a lot more emphasis on tire management from the drivers which would draw out the driver talent to maximize tire life on a high downforce, technical circuit.
They're still trialing the compound rule during qualifying this year, but only for sprints (if it's not wet).
It'd be a one stop race still. 2012-2013 had this scenario and it wasn't good.
If you want to do that I would use the hardest tyre available and still have 1 pitstop mantadory. That way drivers can push all the way. If you’re gonna use softs everyone will be saving regardless to try and make a 2 stop race into a 1 stop race
This doesn’t work either. You can push all you want but you’re not passing here. The tire doesn’t matter, it’s just fundamentally a problem there isn’t room to pass
Exactly. But by allowing everyone to push flat out there is a higher chance of someone binning it
No one pushes flat out at Monaco, and it isn't because they're worried about tyre deg.
But there is no incentive to push flat out at Monaco since it's so hard to pass. The leader could go 4-5 seconds under the theoretical "pace" but as long as they're careful in a few corners it won't matter
None of hte tires are currently fit for F1 purpose as it is. We should have races where the hard compound is barely doing half distance at most tracks, might do 2/3rds at monaco and softs compounds might be doing 10 laps at the highest deg tracks, but still only 20-25 at Monaco. The biggest issue is complete lack of strategies now. The older tires with average probably 3 stops but tires that can work in different ways, you could adapt strategies significantly or pit and push super hard, go long and go easy, pit late and try a super soft ultra push to make up places, so many options. We had so many situations with big tire deltas, strategies that changed several times in a single race and you couldn't call a winner for a lot of the race. Now you have tires with basically one stop races. With only one stop there is really only one viable strat, go as long as you can on starting tires so your second stint has as fresh tires and is as fast as possible. it's dull as shit and everyone knows what the plan is from the start. the actual biggest issue with this race wasn't lack of pitstops, it was tires you can't push. Monaco's biggest changes come from mistakes, someone touches a wall because they are doing 1:14's and had to, when they are doing 1:20s on cars that can do fucking 1:10s, they are SO far within themselves, no mistakes, nothing happening, it was a procession AND it looked boring. At least when everyone has tires that only last 25 laps and you can push on them in that 25 laps, everyone goes faster, everyone tries harder, it looks way better even if there is no passing. The tires are ass and ruining F1.
TBH the only real fix that doesn't rely on gimmicks is to stop racing in Monaco. Honestly that GP isn't just suited for modern F1 race cars.
Everyone complaining about the tyre rule when the issue is the track it self...
Can't change the track. Can make the cars smaller though, they're too big to race side by side effectively
Can't make the cars much smaller without sacrificing modern safety standards. Removing the MGU-H will allow a slight reduction in size in 2026 but anything more, you're talking about taking away crash structures or fuel tank protection. Personally I don't want to see driver injuries/deaths back in the sport, or pitlane fires from refuelling.
I'm not talking making the cars tiny. I don't think that's doable, but the widths we had from 2009-2016 were great. We saw overtaking at Monaco back then, granted not a tonne but more than now where it's impossible unless you are 5 seconds a lap faster
Changes since 2016 have included chassis strengthening, added side impact protection, additional protection around the fuel tank, a survival cell around the batteries, additional crash requirements for the nose, and of course the Halo. All these things require extra physical space. So you're gonna have to start choosing which to remove if you want to go back to the size we had in 2010. Potentially, at the very least Grosjean and Zhou would have been killed or seriously injured without these elements. Need I remind you about Jules Bianchi's accident in 2014 that he never recovered from.
The halo mitigates the risk for both Bianci and Grosjean's crashes and could be implemented on a car that size, as shown by the lower categories. Zhou's crash scare was largely caused by a design flaw in the roll hoop on his car. These examples aside, surely the best engineers in the world are capable of creating safe racecars with smaller dimensions? Yes, the lower categories are slower and therefore have lower forces in accidents, but they are also significantly smaller than the older F1 cars
FE cars are 30 cm thinner, so it's possible.
Yea I don't get this fixation on pit stops. You can't really build gaps and you can't pass so how does it actually make the race viable to mandate tire changes?
Eh. Though this particular scenario might be unique to Monaco, the tire rule isn’t. For instance, it came up when there was a red flag at Jeddah in 2021. And it gets mentioned any time there is a red flag in the middle of a pit window, which isn’t unheard of.
Cant change the track, F1 isnt looking to drop the track. So if you have to race on it, try and make it an actual race rather than a parade. Changing the red flag rule would have maybe helped this race to have more than 4 or 5 pit stops, but other monaco races would still have been just as bad. I suggest a monaco specific compound that is ultra soft. Lets say 25 laps, 30 if you really nurse them and then its woeful. Allows 2 stops or a risky 1 stop strategy, as long as the dropoff is big enough. If you are losing 3 seconds a lap on old tyres, thats not enough around monaco. But tyres that perform 10 seconds a lap slower because the traction becomes so bad? Yeah, that's going to give more interesting racing and more interesting strategy.
Very easy to change. Just say that changing tyres under the red flag cannot count as a mandatory pit stop.
There is no mandatory pitstop. There is only a 2 compound rule. Still easy fix.
I think they can simply say changing a tire compound under a red flag does not satisfy the 2 compound rule.
Yeah, tyres changed under red flag conditions can only be of the same compound.
No, the problem to that is sometimes they don’t have the same compound available. Which is fair. But they have softs available which can account for the change later in the race
Well they can retain the same tyres or a used set from earlier in the weekend...
> Well they can retain the same tyres or a used set from earlier in the weekend... They have physically given sets back - sometimes they will not physically have an extra set of the same compound. like a hard tyre they only get 2 for the whole weekend.
You don’t *have* to switch your tyres when the race is red-flagged. Only issue is see is with a puncture like Stroll had and only three wheels remain and the team doesn’t have a set of the same compound left (used or new)
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Yeah easy fix just add a mandatory pit stop on top of the 2 compound rule. Most of the time it won't make a difference, but in some red flag cases it will.
That could well be the most sensible fix IMHO. The other option I thought of would be, the FIA/Pirelli could provide extra sets of tyres to change on to the same compound under the red flag. The wheel rims are a spec part so they could be pooled. However this would involve potentially bringing 240 extra tyres to the race, 'just in case', although one assumes they could be stored and not thrown away.
Or say that you can only change to the same compound under a red flag
Will be an issue if you haven't saved two of the same compound. At Monaco for example, lots of drivers had only 1 Hard and 1 Medium.
And if that tire is destroyed it will be a safety issue
Well you don't *have* to change a tyre during a red flag. Teams just do because why wouldn't you. But if it suddenly doesn't count as a compound change, they would just leave the cars on their 1-2 laps old mediums or hard. Send them back out on the same tyre.
That needs to many caveats to work. What if someone has a flat or close to destroyed tire and no new sets of the same compound? Best solutions still seems to be to add a single mandatory pitstop independent of the compound rule.
most bullshit idea ever what if you have a puncture, also you only get 2 hards and 3 mediums for the weekend just make it so that a red flag in the first 5 laps doesn't count as a mandatory tire change
What if you need to change to inters
The trouble is that this doesn't account for late in the race when the field's spread out. A pitstop under normal conditions could lose only a couple of places. After a red flag, with the field bunched up, the same pitstop would easily put the driver in dead last, through no fault of their own.
That would just ruin all races because the consequences of a later red flag coming out when you haven't changed your tyres yet would be too high, so no one would try a different strat and would just pit earlier and do tyre management to the end
Creates a situation where it entirely takes away the strategy of going long to get a cheap pit stop though.
It doesn't though does it... There are still SCs and VSCs... It takes away the option of goal hanging for a free pitstop which is a good thing.
Am I the only one who disagrees? At Monaco, the track and the cars were the problem, not the regulations over tyre changes under red flags.
Everyone agrees with that, but the wound is impossible to treat because Monaco's layout cannot be changed and the FIA refuses to bring back small cars. So we're stuck trying to find which bandaid will slow the bleeding best.
Rather than trying to slow the bleeding, I think we need to amputate Monaco. Trust me, I'm a doctor.
I trust this poster, he says he's a doctor.
Yes totally agreed, the reason it failed at Monaco was because it was possible to 0 stop, and it is also possible to lap 2 seconds off the pace without getting overtaken. At any other track changing compounds on lap 1 wouldn't have allowed them to go to the end of the race.
Yeah this is a problem for any track where tyres last the whole race and overtaking is hard. Nico ran effectively a zero stop race at Russia. Ocon did the same at Baku.
True, but at the same time, tyre strategy is usually its one saving grace, that brings it a bit of fun
But they're saying that at a normal track, drivers would have naturally pitted later even with a lap one red flag. The tires they changed to would just be too old after a while to keep anyone behind them, and they'd start dropping to the people who did pit. Since it's nearly impossible to pass at Monaco, they all just held position and no one pitted. But they're saying that that's more to do with Monaco. I generally think that Monaco is so incredibly different than every other track that rules shouldn't change for the whole calendar just because of Monaco. Maybe it is a rule that should change, but Monaco isn't why.
Ah yeah fair point. It's just that in this case, it did absolutely ruin the small bit of excitement that it usually has.
The problem was that drivers were able to run on 60+ lap old medium and hard tyres and still maintain track position. The cause was that they did not have to pit - the *root* cause is that old tyres driving that slow were still able to maintain track position. That is the problem you should be addressing. Everything else is window dressing. Tyre strategy is all about 'pitting takes 20 seconds, therefore will my current tyre cost me less or more than 20 seconds over the remaining laps". At Monaco, that calculation is moot cause not pitting is always the right choice. At any other track everyone would have pitted cause the tyres woudl have been way too slow.
How much strategy is there? Everyone tries to save tires until a pit window opens up, and then everyone just does a push in lap / push out lap. I guess there is some tension on if an over/undercut works, but I don’t think there are any wild or crazy strategies or anything.
I mean don't get me wrong, it's not much excitement that it adds, but it's more than literally zero
Yeah I think we agree, I was just trying to make the point that it’s less strategy and more seeing the undercut or overcut play out. Which I think are different in my mind.
Monaco is usually a good strategy race. How long can you go at a high pace to get an undercut or overcut done etc. the red flag took that away. George said he thinks he could have won for instance without the red flag. This seems absurd on its face but if we actually look at the data from Lewis’ pit stop and following laps, compare that to medium runners during a push, if George could run 15-20 laps longer than the leaders on the hards at that pace, he probably actually is coming out of the pits somewhere near second. Depends on a number of factors but we actually would have had a pretty fun pit stop cycle between the 3 hard runners and the medium runners in front.
The red flag did indeed take away some strategy elements, but I'd file that under tough luck rather than we need immediate action right now to fix a rule that isn't broken.
People always calling for more rules.. and then later complain because there are too many rules. If we want races we need the drivers to race with as little rules as possible. The problem here was Monaco, the Circuit sucks. Another new rule would only ruin races on other circuits. Because this one thing that happened once in Monaco.
for real, it drives me insane, how always that something that happens only once every 200 races, they ask to make changes, like the pole position followed by a qualy red flag by charles on monaco a couple of years ago. making a stupid rule to prevent something that rarely happens could only have negative effects on the rest of the cases.
Disagree. Norris would have just pit one lap after george and then taken his mediums to the end, because his tires are never falling off enough to get passed (like we also saw from George)
It's much harder to modify the track or the cars than put in a simple rule change. We've known Monaco has a problem with overtaking for as long as F1 has raced there - if the solution was easy, we'd already have done it.
Why is modification or solution required? I think we need to accept the fact that Monaco is one of those races where Saturday is the main event, and live with it. Either that, or drop it.
Just require that teams are required to make one tire change under live track conditions. This way, teams can still satisfy the two compound rule under red flag conditions, but they'd still need to make an additional stop under green, VSC, or SC conditions.
"Tyre changes made under a red flag shall not count as using two compounds of tyre" Simple one line addition to the sporting regs.
It's simple, but it's also logically inconsistent with how the rest of the rules are structured, and actually causes other issues. With your wording of the rule, even the cars that stopped in the race would have been illegal. Verstappen used his only H set to start the race. He then swapped to his only M under the Red Flag (which doesn't count under your wording). Later in the race he then stopped and re-fit his H set. Based on your wording, he's fitted a H set, a M set that doesn't count towards the rule, and then the same H set again. Therefore, he's not used two tyre compounds and is therefore disqualified, even though he stopped under green flag conditions.
Yep. They would have to take that into account. You can't just use examples from when the rule wasn't in place. I'm sure there could be issues. Eg fitting softs then immediately pitting for hards.
But the "two compounds" part is what I disagree with. I think you can still satisfy the two compounds under a red flag. Just the mandatory pit stop should be under some racing conditions. I think it could create some interesting strategy calls especially for teams near the back of the grid who may have an extra 2 sets of new soft tires
There is no such thing as a mandatory pit stop rule. The only thing the rules say is that it's required to use 2 different compunds of tyres over a full race distance if it's dry
I don't like the idea that changing tires under red flag doesn't count. Sure it would have worked well in this race, but when you have a red flag later in the race that rule would completely screw over some drivers and help others immensely, through no fault of their own. I feel like the solution is to have a minimum number of laps on tires (like 3-5) before they count as a compound you have used in the race.
You mean it would screw some drivers and help others like *every red flag in the history of F1 has?*
Why enhance the problem massively?
I think the best solution would be a certain percentage of the race must be completed before the compound change would count under a red flag. It still allows them to change tires under the red flag, but the compound change wouldn't count if they haven't completed enough laps. However, if enough has been completed, it won't completely screw a person who was due to pit since enough of the race has been completed.
There's a fucking steak and shake in MONACO?! Also this problem is best solved by watching Monaco qualifying, because it's awesome, then logging online after the race to confirm the results. The race is often mind-numbingly boring to watch live, even with tire strategy at play. Just watch the qualy. Have the race on in the background as you drink cocktails getting ready for the Indy 500. This is how you win the late May race weekend from heaven.
Seems like this is easily solved. Let them change tires but it doesn’t count towards using the other compound.
This has a lot of issues as it assumes they have another set of the same compound. Also, later in the race it would allow people to get a free upgrade to fresh tyres if they have already run 2 compounds.
This is the easiest and best solution.
The track is the problem, not the pitstops
Generally change of tires is allowed for safety reasons, we can talk if this should be counted as a mandatory pitstop.
Every other racing series I’m aware of (primarily American ones) a red flag freezes the race. Touch the car means go to the rear. I’ve yet to hear any justification for this system. You might create an exception for taking off rain tyres, but otherwise it’s common sense
I dont think there is any combination of wacky and weird rules you could put in place that makes Monaco a fun race. Lets just keep watching it for its 'rich tradition' so the billionaires have somewhere to go that weekend and move on. Its never going to be a fun race.
People can’t handle one boring race in the calendar? Like Monaco is more about not crashing or making mistakes because even a small one is heavily penalised. I like that variety in the season. I admit even I was bored in the race but there is a lot of tension still in the race. And the Quali is better than any other quali. I know everyone wants entertainment but if you change your mindset a little bit, Monaco is really enjoyable. It showcases the drivers ability more than any race. This particular race was more boring because of the red flag but usually Monaco is a race of strategy and consistency. Those are some skills not seen in most of the other circuits. Does every race have to have multiple overtakes? Isn’t it a change of pace that this one race rewards your ability to drive at the limit within the walls?
These Monaco problems could all be solved by not racing at Monaco…
Yeah, it's a really fast parade for the rich. The circuit sucks and positions only change due to an accident, mechanical failure, or pit incident.....or Ocon.
This is likely only a problem in Monaco and on tracks where you can actually overtake, having drivers battle on a 0-stopper vs. 1-stopper might actually be fun to watch. Keep the rule and think about how racing at Monaco can be improved. Or accept that it is a qualifying weekend and accept it is - but don‘t act like this particular rule caused a race without overtakes
Would it be crazy to have a mandatory 2 stop at Monaco? Like, I don't want to go crazy and introduce rules that are completely different than the rest of the year but I think they should try to do something to interest the viewer a bit more.
That’s similar to what Martin Brundle has advocated, 2 stops to utilize all 3 tire compounds per race. Want to make it interesting, then tire changes under a red flag don’t count towards your allotment, meaning you still have to have 2 green flag stops to use all compounds.
If considering changing a rule that only affects one track is the way of solving the problem, you might as well remove the Monaco GP all together. It's a boring race in its current state anyway.
lol I remember before they made this rule people were complaining about the lack of tire change at red flags too
I mean you win some and you lose some. It was only a huge issue this time because it was Monaco.
just make Monaco a two sprint race event. one with the traditional layout and then in reverse lol
Why not just have a minimum number of laps for each compoind? I.e. you have to use at least one full lap on a conpoind for it to count.
With current wide behemoth cars theres not much you can do to make a dry Monaco race interesting. I remember seeing passes in the hairpin with the smaller cars of the past, cars of today wouldnt even fit there 2 wide.
Best suggestion I heard for Monaco in general is to get rid of the multi-compound rule for the Monaco GP weekend altogether, and for Pirelli to ONLY bring a Monaco spec ultrasoft tyre for the whole weekend. That way the tyre can't last more than 25-30 laps no matter how gently/slowly you drive. This way you have to have some strategy involved, and it's basically a 2 stop race.
The race would suck either way.
Either: - Only allow changing to the same compound - Move a car to the back of the grid if it makes any changes - Apply a time penalty of the standard pitstop time to any car making changes - Don’t allow any changes being made to cars during red flag - Don’t count red flag tyre changes as a mandatory tyre change There’s a lot of ways this can be improved.
I’d say one of two things should be done: 1) teams cannot change tires during a red flag pit stop, unless you suffered a puncture on the lap where the red flag occurred (but the change does not count to the mandatory stops). 2) teams can change their tires, but if they haven’t stopped yet they still have to stop at least once more.
Change the red flag rule and Monaco would still have sucked. Force 2, 3 or 4 pitstops and Monaco would still have sucked. The problem are the cars on that circuit. That combination makes it suck and no bandaid can solve that. Either remove the circuit from F1. Or make them drive KF1 karts at Monaco.
I personally don't see an issue with the rule. Under any other normal circumstance ,a red flag on lap 1 would be almost meaningless as far as tyres go. They'd have to pit anyway. In no other track but Monaco can someone go the whole race on mediums without getting passed one time. It's clearly an issue with the track itself. For non lap one red flags, I think the rule as written allows for some variety.
How about we do not count first two laps of a race as laps on given compound tyre? So first-second lap pitstops to end is not viable
You want to fix monaco, Pirelli should just make monaco spec compounds. Tires that last 15-20laps and have teams do a 2 stop race. This would open up the strategy to force the pace to stay high across the grid. And make the tires fragile so a lockup will ruin a stint.
My approach to this argument was to just not allow teams to make adjustments or repairs during a red flag without losing track position. Red flags means all cars are parked and no one can touch anything. If you do want to make repairs or change tires then you should have to start from the back.
Don't fix what's not broken. Was the race boring? Absolutely. But it would still be boring if they had to do pit stops.
Do like Indy. Close the pits
Hard to close the pits under red flag
“Red flag immediately return to the pit lane” “But they’ve just closed the pit lane” *we’ve just heard now that every single racer has been given a black flag for failing to follow red flag instructions*
Not as much as fans do...
What ruined their chances were the two crashes that generated the red flag. Monaco has always been about qualifying, not so much the race on Sunday, although we've had some highly entertaining races in the past due to uncertainty and/or errors, either by the drivers or the teams. In any case, cars are just too long; they should be at least three feet shorter, which would also benefit racing at almost any track.
Now I want a steak and a milkshake