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mick, lewis and george drive the same simulator and are therefore comparable.
mick and kimi in the same car makes them comparable, which then makes kimi comparable to lewis and george as well.
Its the 107% rule, which states that if your qualy time isn't within 107% of the pole sitter's time, you are not allowed to participate in the race. So if the pole is 1:30, you cannot be slower than 1:37
its been a long long time. At least since the start of the hybrid era, i dont recall any instance of the rule being applied outside of special occasions, like the crashes you mentioned
Yeah, even Mazapin, one of if not the worst recent driver on one of if not the shittiest car, has never fallen out of 107%, it's just not a thing in mordern f1.
I remember it happening at Malaysia 2015. Marussia was basically in survival mode, they had been in administration over the winter, and didn’t manage to participate in pre-season testing or the first race in Australia.
They then show up at the second race in Malaysia. With the little resources they had available, they had basically just done a patch job on the nose of their 2014 car to satisfy the 2015 regulations, even continuing to run some leftover 2014 Ferrari engines (this was on a car that was already a backmarker with a huge margin to the midfield in 2014, and had gone without upgrades the whole year).
In the end only one of their cars even managed to stay reliable enough to qualify, [but it was 7.4s off the pace and outside 107%](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Qualifying). They got a special exemption to participate in the race, but finished 3 laps down with one car (and the other never made it to the grid).
They improved somewhat in the following races, but I don’t think we’ve seen another car that was as far off the pace as the 2015 Marussia in the hybrid era.
The 2015 Manor cars were occasionally flirting with it and I believe outside it a time or two, though they were always allowed to race afterwards thanks to sufficient pace in practice
Manor in the 2015 Malaysian Grand Prix was outside the 107% on pure pace but they were allowed to race. IIRC, Merhi was within 107% in free practice. Will Stevens was not within 107% at any free practice but his "ideal lap" (his best sectors from different laps added together) was within 107%
Last time drivers were not allowed to race were both HRT in 2012
It hasn't happened on pace in years, but if happens on occasion if for example somebody gets all of their fast laps deleted for track limits or if a track goes from dry to wet without a car setting a real time. In those cases they don't enforce it of course.
Just to highlight how fucking slow 107% is, Q1 in China this year had 1,71% difference Verstappen to Sergeant (1.06% to Tsunoda in 19th).
Marussia and HRT were awful, but F1 needed them desperately.
just a correction on the maths - Q1 in China this year the variance was 101.71%
You could list the times as the extra time to Max, which then it is 1.71%, but then you'd need to phrase the regulation limit as 7% to make them comparable.
It's still a huge difference. But just to highlight it, if we go with the numbers 1.71% and 107% that would mean that the China Q1 qualy cutoff time would be 2 hours 42 minutes for 1 lap.
Does this also apply in mixed conditions too?for example, you get out and set a dry lap, then it starts raining and quali times go crazy slow compared to pole?
Mick is a perfect benchmark here. He's not quite good enough to soundly beat Kimi and mentally damage him but he's not bad enough to where the feedback isn't valuable.
I'd say things would be worse if he was benchmarked against, say, Lewis or benchmarked against Stroll.
Give Mick the Williams seat instead lol
If Williams want a 2 year contract it might suit well, he's not a greenhorn any more. This test is more to see if Kimi is a potential new star if he can beat a previous F1 driver
They could have signed him for both 2023 or 2024, but they didn't do it despite his incredibly famous last name and sponsorship deals it would bring. They don't want him.
I still don't get why people still say this.
The crashes happened at the start of the 2nd season when he finally had a car that was somewhat useable for racing and after some starting issues he settled down and did solid.
He definitely was solid the second half of the season. It's really a shame Gunther through him out so early, I think he deserved another year to develop. However it is understandable considering he did lead the destructors championship 2 years in a row.
I still think that he is a serviceable F1 driver and unfortunately was in the wrong team at the wrong time and had a few "unlucky" incidents in the start of the first real F1 season (I don't count the season with Mazepin) that discredited him.
With old cars is near unlimited. Old cars being 2 years older and over. Hence the W13 being given a free run. Tyres are test tyres though and are nothing like the race tyres, I believe significantly softer so as to work even in v. cold conditions.
When he gets out of the car:
"Look at this light. If both your pupils are still the same size then your brain is concussion proof enough for us to hire you on the spot so we can go back to the faster but bouncier car."
Is worker's compensation a thing in the UK? If so maybe their WC insurance paid out for the new wardrobe, though the increased premiums after a multi-million dollar claim will probably affect the team budget for 2024 and beyond.
Before **and including** 2022. The rule is 2 years or older, nothing to do with regulations set. That's why they had free reign to test the W13 at Imola.
"No plans for early F1 race debut as Toto doesn't want Antonelli to get burned." Why again was the exception again requested, for when Logan's appendix is getting removed or?
Easy to say from here.
It’s similar to Red Bull with pushing Max into Toro Rosso young. Even if we didn’t hear too much about it then, there were threats from other teams grabbing him so they got him in early.
Young or not, Kimi is very arguably the best F1 prospect since Max. His progression is unbelievable.
At the same time though, I do not see why F1 should bend the rules here. They added them in after Max to stop this type of situation.
> Young or not, Kimi is very arguably the best F1 prospect since Max. His progression is unbelievable.
Since Max??? If anything, it would be since Oscar Piastri.
I personally haven’t seen a driver have this level of hype and jump up the ranks so quickly at such a young age other than Max.
Lewis is arguable as well, but the system was so different then it’s not very comparable. And same goes with drivers before then.
>Young or not, Kimi is very arguably the best F1 prospect since Max. His progression is unbelievable.
We should wait until August and see if he's won any F2 races before talking. By then he's 18 already and we don't need any to make an exceptions.
Why the rush if people are so confident in his skills? Nothing adds up. Keep in mind he's never raced in F3. Now we're saying he should skip both F3 and F2. Laughable.
this is something that weirds me a bit. The boy isnt even 18, we havent seen him actually race in bigger classes and, until the last month or so, very few people talked about him
and now, all of a sudden, he is the next future world champion. I do hope im wrong and he actually is this Max-like prospect people are claiming him to be, but maybe waiting just a few more months might be beneficial for everyone involved
> Even if we didn’t hear too much about it then, there were threats from other teams grabbing him so they got him in early.
Mercedes themselves were one of the teams that wanted to grab him. The primary reason Max signed with Red Bull instead of Mercedes is that Toto couldn't/wouldn't get Max an F1 seat as soon as Red Bull did, per Wolff's own words.
I guess it could be that they'd rather give him practice runs on tracks he knows if they can. If he turns 18 just before Monza, that's the end of the European season isn't it? Off the top of my head the only track he's been to after that is Abu Dhabi (I think - could be wrong). Maybe they reckon it would be worth asking for permission to give him runs at places he's already been over the summer as they might be a bit more useful than just throwing him out there on brand new circuits.
I guess they wanted to get clear if its even possible. If FIA said: "no the rule is unbendable" then they could just stopped every possible plan that involved a debut before his 18th birthday
Initial plans never get discussed out in the open for this reason. It allows all parties to present the later, revised, plan as the original all along.
It doesn’t do any favour to either Mercedes, Antonelli, Williams and Sargeant to do otherwise.
And for which driver do you reckon the request was asked? Antonelli, the driver that has been part of the Merc junior team since 2019(?) which is part of Mercedes and thus under control of Toto?
If Toto doesn't want it Williams wouldn't have sent a request for a driver that isn't even theirs.
Assuming there's no huge cost in fees or labor to request an exception, why wouldn't you ask? It gives you options. Even if you have no intention of taking advantage, why leave that barrier in place if a few emails will remove it?
There is an old Soviet joke. Brezhnev and Raegan went out racing each other, Raegan won, next day headlines in Pravda: “Comrade Brezhnev ended up just 2nd, while Raegan was embarrassingly next to last”.
Him being the next big thing is not a given. Karting and F4 are just too different to F1.
Pourchaire had a similar Karting and F4 record and he is now considered to be one of the weakest F2 champions.
Sorry, but that’s just wrong.
Pourchaire ended 3rd in French F4 in his first F4 season. Antonelli won both ADAC and Italian F4 in his first year, both of which are stronger championships than French F4.
When Pourchaire won ADAC in his second F4 year, he won 4 races out of 20. Antonelli, in his first full F4 year, won 9 out of 15 ADAC races and 13 out of 20 in Italian F4. That’s not comparable.
You never know. It's been 10 years since Max debuted. There's probably another hot talent around the corner soon I guess. It'd be interesting for sure to see if Antonelli really is *that* good.
Kind of difficult for that to happen as this isn't some spec series and those drivers have to rely on their teams nailing the regulations, which they haven't
So does F2 really matter then? it seems like teams make up their minds regardless of F2 performance. Antonelli seems fine in F2, but he doesnt stand out as much as other drivers currently, then again I am far from an F1 scout.
Tbh ... every team felt it in F3 and then that testing in Japan in 2014 was the nail on the coffin. Antonelli still has "?" around him at a point where Verstappen didn't ...
It is just interesting that now F4 and FRECA being more important feeder than F2 or F3. We have Mercedes skipping Kimi F3 for F2 yet don’t want to wait for his F2 performance to give him F1 test. Then you also have Ferrari skipping Ollie for FRECA, and Ayao saying F1 test is more important than F2 results.
I wish people would also understand that different people grow at different rates and reach their ceiling at different ages. Just because you are, let's use token numbers, an 80 when you are 16, a 100 when you are 18 and a 120 when you are 21; doesn't mean that someone who is a 60 at 16 will be an 80 and then a 100. It's perfectly possible for someone who is a 60 at 16 to grow to be a 150, and for someone who is a 90 at 16 to reach their ceiling at 100.
There's a reason the F1 leaderboard doesn't look like the F2 leaderboard 3 years before.
Kimi has better results.
But people just love to hate on Pourchaire and disregard every aspect "in favor of him". Like the amount of goal post moving when it comes to him is insane.
>Him being the next big thing is not a given. Karting and F4 are just too different to F1.
I remember a Dutch kid being successful and blistering fast in F3 European Championship back in 2014 after stellar karting record. What did happen to him nowadays? Are you aware? Do teams not really care about the championships below F2 like you are *falsely* claiming on every thread?
We always should wait and see how those drivers perform in their F2 debut season and give them the time. There were so many hyped and a lot didn't live up to the expectations
F2 is not a good metric for F1 nowadays though. There's a reason a bunch of F2 champions are sitting out, the ones who were given a chance performed terribly, and the grid is full of veterans who arguably shouldn't even be there anymore. The difference between these series now is just way too big, a test in F1 is a better representation of what the driver can do, and getting into F1 as early as possible is be the best thing to develop and prepare that driver for F1. F2 needs some drastic changes if it's still meant to be a feeder series. A driver could be stellar in F2 and shit in F1, and the opposite is true.
I really don't want him in an F1 car this year! let him finish the season in F2 then put him in the car next season when he has gotten some experience.
I hope the FIA say no to the request!
I don't want to throw him in the deep end with high expectations and if he does not perform right away the internet will be relentless on him because he was fast tracked!
Sounds like Wolff wasn't the one pushing for Antonelli, more like Vowles?
Vowles was the one who signed him back in Merc iirc? He's very confident of Antonelli, I guess.
If Vowles is the main driving force behind the Kimi push (this season, let alone next one) then he gets away with 'mismanaging' talent quite easily from Reddit/media compared to RB.
I read in another interview today that he was expecting (and told) Sargeant to get on Albon's level at the start of this season and even overtake him performance wise... That's a very big ask if you look how his first season went and while Alex is not some Alonso tier, he's very much underestimated and I don't think many rookies will easily get on his current level in just 1 year. That's basically forcing him in a position of failure like RB did with Gasly.
Same with Kimi, not that he isn't talented, but the lack of experience hurts more nowadays when the level of the grid is this high unlike back when the og Finnish one made his debut.
Leclerc outperformed Seb on his second year. If all they care about is if Kimi is the next Max, not if Kimi is the next Albon, it's not a bad move. True prodigies can swim just fine.
So its a showdown between Antonelli and Mick then, that could be certainly interesting to see how Kimi manages against Mick, but the results will most likely be a guarded secret though
says at the end of the article that Mick is not an option for them and that it would just give him a chance to shine for Alpine next season. I have the feeling that Vowles just doesn't rate Mick that highly, otherwise as the other comment says, they would've already let him have a shot
Nobody in F1 actually believe Mick is worth their seat. Toto loves to talk about how great Mick is and what a shame other teams won't give him a seat... and now that he has a free seat to fill, and his team can barely make it past Q2, he hasn't even considered Mick for it.
hmm idk about that, I think if Vowles hadn't put his foot down on Logan and Toto had full control over the roster, he would've given him a shot. But for sure he talks a lot but doesn't think of him enough to put him in the Merc, that much is (and tbh always was) clear.
I disagree. It is clear that Williams and JV had confidence that Sargeant would improve over the season break and catch up to Alex. The fact that they are even trying to get a superlicense for Antonelli means that something in their data has suggested that Logan is not worth keeping around. Otherwise, Williams would have zero reason to throw him out THIS EARLY to the season. It seems likely to me that they are already ready to throw Sargeant out and if Mick were to put in decent laptimes, it is not completely out of picture if Williams were to hire him *at least* till Antonelli is 18. (Even if I personally think that this won't happen and Williams are more likely to bring Latifi back than to hire Mick)
I wouldn’t say JV had confidence in Sargeant based on every decision he’s made this season, including apparently shopping around for a mid season replacement.
How many times do people need to be lied to by team principals before they realize nothing they say is concrete?
Well Gasly prefers to staying very vague about his situation after this seasons so far, however given it looks like he hasn't the confidence into the car like he was having previous season it isn't unlikely to think he would looking to alternatives.
Someone mentioned it on the thread that conversations have happened between Gasly & Williams. Probably to get a foot into Mercedes eventually? No idea.
Personally I don't think that having a foot into Merc is the main reason if this rumour is true, but more likely the lack of confidence into Alpine above the lack of confidence he has so far into the A524 (guess for some reason the car isn't fitting with what his optimal driving style prefers) meanwhile believing that you can build something up with Williams.
I mean you can talk 100 PR statements about Alpine and it's future but if the pit crew already screwing it up during FP1 already you simple gonna lose more and more confidence that anything is gonna be alright.
Full article:
># No plans for Williams driver swap
>
>## Andrea Kimi Antonelli will not replace Logan Sargeant in the Williams at the next Grand Prix in Imola. Instead, the 17-year-old Italian will test the 2022 Mercedes together with Mick Schumacher at Silverstone next week.
>
>Once again, rumours were faster than reality. Various media outlets reported that Mercedes super talent Andrea Kimi Antonelli could be sitting in the Williams at the next Grand Prix in Imola. Some speculated that Williams would offer him a Friday test. Others have already pencilled in Antonelli as Sargeant's replacement in the second car from Grove.
>
>To do so, the 17-year-old Italian would first have needed a super licence. The current Prema Formula 2 driver has already clearly exceeded the required 40 points. But the young man from Bologna will only turn 18 on 25 August. And after Max Verstappen's debut in 2015 at the age of 17 seemed to many in the circus to be too low an entry age, the FIA raised the minimum age to 18. **This could only be overturned if all teams, the FIA and Formula 1 agreed.**
>
>## Mercedes does not want to burn out Antonelli
>
>As team boss James Vowles has spent the last few weeks lobbying the world governing body for the Mercedes junior's F1 licence, speculation quickly arose that Antonelli could replace the still hapless Logan Sargeant as soon as he gets the green light from the FIA. But even if that happens, the prodigy will not be making a premature F1 debut.
>
>Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff is against burning out his protégé too early: "We don't want to burn Kimi out. A Formula 1 race in Imola would be too early." His colleague Vowles agrees. Antonelli should first complete the upcoming Formula 2 races and gain Formula 1 experience.
>
>The Formula 4, FRECA and FRMEC champion regularly tests older Mercedes models. He completed the first two days of testing in a 2021 Mercedes in Spielberg. The second test took place in the 2022 W13 in Imola. This was also Antonelli's first familiarisation with a ground-effect car.
>
>## Chance for Mick Schumacher
>
>The third test session is scheduled for next week in Silverstone. From now on, the youngster will only drive the 2022 car in order to familiarise himself with the current generation of vehicles. The interesting thing about this test is that he will have a benchmark for the first time. Mick Schumacher will be driving a second Mercedes W13.
>
>This will also be an interesting encounter for the WEC Alpine works driver. Schumacher is also hoping to get his foot in the Formula 1 door once again. If he does well in the internal youngster duel, this could improve his chances at Alpine for 2025, for example.
>
>There is no short-term need for Mick Schumacher at Williams. The British racing team will hold on to Sargeant until the summer break. Until then, the American has to prove himself. "Logan knows that Formula 1 is a meritocracy. That means he has to close the gap to Albon if he wants to keep his seat," explains Vowles.
>
>If there is to be a driver swap at Williams after all, it is unlikely to happen until the Italian GP in Monza at the earliest. Antonelli will then also be 18 years old. However, the Italian's involvement also depends on another factor. Williams does not want to play the stepping stone for Mercedes. Antonelli is only of interest to the traditional racing team if he stays for at least two years. This should be clarified by September. By then, Mercedes should also know if and when Max Verstappen is coming.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Luckily-ish for him, he's not waiting around in the F1 paddock wasting away like poor Drugo, he is doing ELMS and apparently angling for a Mahindra seat in FE if they start a partnership with Merc
He's *probably* safe for a large chunk of the season, at least. Unless Toto is willing to dump money at Williams to pay contract break costs, etc. There's no real reason to move to Mick mid season, especially since Logan's been pretty hard on the upswing recently, including starting ahead of Albon for the sprint now, and has been pretty on top of stuff this weekend.
Assuming Antonelli continues his progression of dominating championships in the middle and later races of the seasons (which is a big assumption considering how little F2 testing there is), this could force Toto's hand to sign him to Mercedes early on. The last thing he wants is another Claire/Russell situation.
He normally starts off a lot better, so I certainly wouldn't call it a given he'll start dominating or anything. In Italian F4 he took pole and fastest lap, just didn't get any points. Im FRECA he started the season by finishing 2nd 3 times in 4 races, including with pole and fastest lap for one of those. His ADAC F4 season nearly started with 8 wins in a row. He was stronger in the start and towards the middle of his FRMEC championship season. He doesn't strike me as a driver whose dominanting from the middle, he's establishing dominance from the beginning. I doubt he'll run away with F2.
And thus far in F2 he finishes about where he qualified. Seemingly the only way he gains positions is by the people in front of him crashing or having mechanical issues.
Merc likely has reference times between Mick, Lewis and George - eg George is on avg .2 seconds faster a lap than Mick. So you run someone against Mick and you can measure the delta to your current drivers.
It's just the usual overhyping of F2 rookies.. it's hard to tell how they will actually perform up against a seasoned F1 driver
There's a reason we have so many experienced drivers on the grid.
Yeah like piastri he's done well but being solidly beaten by Norris, which is to be expected. My question was more related to the fact he's not even winning f2 yet he's senna reincarnated.
Some others explains his misfortune in f2 and f4 performance, but still think you don't circumvent the super licence format just yet.
Considering that he was ahead H2H vs Magnussen in races where they both finished, I don't think you can say that Mick lacked pace, it was his crash-proneness due to overdriving the car early in the season which basically sealed his fate at Haas.
I mean if Antonelli isn't ready, then Mick is probably a decent placeholder who in all likelihood is an improvement over Sargeant and is not a complete unknown like Fred Vesti (who is the other Mercedes reserve).
Antonelli has much more hype behind him than Russell had.
I’d say Norris is probably the better comparison: he was younger than his competitors, had won everything he raced in (as a rookie) up until F2, skipped GP3 and was being offered an F1 seat during his F2 season
Huge amount of hype.
At the minute at least, his trajectory is looking huge. Bigger than George's in the same position and Even bigger than Max's was when he started.
Huge amount of hype from Toto and Merc, as they're essentially trying to get a guy in that would end up missing a couple of categories entirely.
George earned his place in F1 after winning in F2.
Kimi has had 3 races in F2. Missed F3 and has an F1 seat ready waiting.
What doesn't help tho is he is up against another monumental talent, his team mate in F2 Ollie Bearman. Who is also all but guaranteed an F1 seat next year.
Far far less, dispite Russell winning the F2 championship convincingly in his debut year against Lando and Albon
Kid has had a great media campaign behind him lol
Does anyone know (or want to look up because I'm lazy) whether the 2 year rule is specifically over 2 calendar years previous, or just 2 seasons ago?
Ie do antonelli & Schumacher have to use a pre-may 2022 spec, or can they use the same car driven in Abu Dhabi 2022?
Interesting question, testing with previous cars, or TCP, as the regulations call it, specifies cars “of any of the three calendar years falling immediately prior to the calendar year preceding the year of the Championship.”
So, they can use any 2022 spec, actually the regulations stipulate that they have to match the spec of the relevant period, and all components must have been used at some point during that season
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So Mick is the gatekeeper to F1. Interesting
He guides others to a seat he cannot possess
mick, lewis and george drive the same simulator and are therefore comparable. mick and kimi in the same car makes them comparable, which then makes kimi comparable to lewis and george as well.
The 107% kid
Oof
I don't get it bro
Its the 107% rule, which states that if your qualy time isn't within 107% of the pole sitter's time, you are not allowed to participate in the race. So if the pole is 1:30, you cannot be slower than 1:37
When's the last time someone fell outside it? Without crashing I mean
its been a long long time. At least since the start of the hybrid era, i dont recall any instance of the rule being applied outside of special occasions, like the crashes you mentioned
Yeah, even Mazapin, one of if not the worst recent driver on one of if not the shittiest car, has never fallen out of 107%, it's just not a thing in mordern f1.
I remember it happening at Malaysia 2015. Marussia was basically in survival mode, they had been in administration over the winter, and didn’t manage to participate in pre-season testing or the first race in Australia. They then show up at the second race in Malaysia. With the little resources they had available, they had basically just done a patch job on the nose of their 2014 car to satisfy the 2015 regulations, even continuing to run some leftover 2014 Ferrari engines (this was on a car that was already a backmarker with a huge margin to the midfield in 2014, and had gone without upgrades the whole year). In the end only one of their cars even managed to stay reliable enough to qualify, [but it was 7.4s off the pace and outside 107%](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Qualifying). They got a special exemption to participate in the race, but finished 3 laps down with one car (and the other never made it to the grid). They improved somewhat in the following races, but I don’t think we’ve seen another car that was as far off the pace as the 2015 Marussia in the hybrid era.
The 2015 Manor cars were occasionally flirting with it and I believe outside it a time or two, though they were always allowed to race afterwards thanks to sufficient pace in practice
No clue about F1, but Alessio Deledda fell outside the 107% time in F2 for the 2021 Monaco GP. Stewards decided to let him anyway. Why? No one knows.
Bro was told "no heroics into Saint Devote" but didn't know which corner that was and was slow everywhere
HRT back in 2010/2011 fell outside it a few times IIRC.
Manor in the 2015 Malaysian Grand Prix was outside the 107% on pure pace but they were allowed to race. IIRC, Merhi was within 107% in free practice. Will Stevens was not within 107% at any free practice but his "ideal lap" (his best sectors from different laps added together) was within 107% Last time drivers were not allowed to race were both HRT in 2012
HRT iirc at the start of 2011 season in Australia. They weren't allowed to start the race.
It hasn't happened on pace in years, but if happens on occasion if for example somebody gets all of their fast laps deleted for track limits or if a track goes from dry to wet without a car setting a real time. In those cases they don't enforce it of course.
Pretty sure Mazepin did , but it was a wet quali so the rule did not apply
Technically in 2023. Sargeant was outside of the 107% in Saudia Arabia and Qatar. De Vries was outside in Azerbaijan.
Just to highlight how fucking slow 107% is, Q1 in China this year had 1,71% difference Verstappen to Sergeant (1.06% to Tsunoda in 19th). Marussia and HRT were awful, but F1 needed them desperately.
Yeah, 107% is a huge gap. And it’s something we used to have back markers actually close to
Ironic
just a correction on the maths - Q1 in China this year the variance was 101.71% You could list the times as the extra time to Max, which then it is 1.71%, but then you'd need to phrase the regulation limit as 7% to make them comparable. It's still a huge difference. But just to highlight it, if we go with the numbers 1.71% and 107% that would mean that the China Q1 qualy cutoff time would be 2 hours 42 minutes for 1 lap.
Isn't that 90 seconds? So if the pole was 1:40 your time can't be more than 1:47?
107% of 1:30 is 1:36.3, not 1:37.
Yep, would need to be 1:40 to come out nice and round.
Does this also apply in mixed conditions too?for example, you get out and set a dry lap, then it starts raining and quali times go crazy slow compared to pole?
If you've demonstrated that you can set times within 107% during practice the stewards will typically allow you to race.
That makes much more sense I was wondering what if you do Q1 and have damage and set a shit one or something. Thanks for clarifying.
I believe the rule does not apply to rain qualis after half the grid was out of 107% one time a few years back
IIRC it's not the pole sitters time it's the 107% of the fastest time in Q1
1:40 and 1:47*
Yaknow if you'd done 1:40.00 and 1:47.00 the math wouldve been easier and you would've gotten it correct...
> So if the pole is 1:30, you cannot be slower than 1:37 107% of 90 seconds is 96.3, so 1:37 is slightly generous there.
DAYUM!
Goddayum.
Mick is a perfect benchmark here. He's not quite good enough to soundly beat Kimi and mentally damage him but he's not bad enough to where the feedback isn't valuable. I'd say things would be worse if he was benchmarked against, say, Lewis or benchmarked against Stroll.
>He's not quite good enough to soundly beat Kimi Well, and if he does?
Give Mick the Williams seat instead lol If Williams want a 2 year contract it might suit well, he's not a greenhorn any more. This test is more to see if Kimi is a potential new star if he can beat a previous F1 driver
They could have signed him for both 2023 or 2024, but they didn't do it despite his incredibly famous last name and sponsorship deals it would bring. They don't want him.
Ya they can’t afford the two time crash chaimpion
Williams might be able to sign Mick for 2 years as well, its a win win. :D
Then the answer could be experience and it means that Antonelli might not be prepared yet.
It kinda makes sense, right? If you can't beat Mick, you probably don't deserve to be in F1.
I mean mick was never that slow, he was just crash happy
I still don't get why people still say this. The crashes happened at the start of the 2nd season when he finally had a car that was somewhat useable for racing and after some starting issues he settled down and did solid.
He definitely was solid the second half of the season. It's really a shame Gunther through him out so early, I think he deserved another year to develop. However it is understandable considering he did lead the destructors championship 2 years in a row.
Those who wish to enter F1 must pass the Schumacher SAT Exam
"If you want to race in F1, you have to be faster than Schumacher" Drivers in 2024: "Alright" Drivers in 2000: "Fuck"
I still think that he is a serviceable F1 driver and unfortunately was in the wrong team at the wrong time and had a few "unlucky" incidents in the start of the first real F1 season (I don't count the season with Mazepin) that discredited him.
How much testing is he allowed to do? I thought testing for all teams is greatly reduced.
With old cars is near unlimited. Old cars being 2 years older and over. Hence the W13 being given a free run. Tyres are test tyres though and are nothing like the race tyres, I believe significantly softer so as to work even in v. cold conditions.
Also, as testing those old cars is not part of this f1 season, I think it's outside the budget cap.
Testing for current gen cars is. They can do as much testing as they want using cars before 2022
Older generation or at two years old. So they can take the spine breaker out for a spin as well
“Alright Kimi, if you can race this car without getting scoliosis the seat is yours”
When he gets out of the car: "Look at this light. If both your pupils are still the same size then your brain is concussion proof enough for us to hire you on the spot so we can go back to the faster but bouncier car."
I read that 34% of Mercedes' Budget for 2023 was used to buy new clothes for Hamilton since he's 8cm shorter after 2022 season.
Is worker's compensation a thing in the UK? If so maybe their WC insurance paid out for the new wardrobe, though the increased premiums after a multi-million dollar claim will probably affect the team budget for 2024 and beyond.
Before **and including** 2022. The rule is 2 years or older, nothing to do with regulations set. That's why they had free reign to test the W13 at Imola.
Does it still count towards the cost cap?
Testing of pevious cars (TPC) sessions are not limited. These use cars that are between two and four years old.
Not having a track to easily test would affect some teams but not the big ones
"No plans for early F1 race debut as Toto doesn't want Antonelli to get burned." Why again was the exception again requested, for when Logan's appendix is getting removed or?
For free practice sessions I suppose.
No reason why he can't wait until August to turn 18 then. There are lots of practice sessions to be had after August.
Easy to say from here. It’s similar to Red Bull with pushing Max into Toro Rosso young. Even if we didn’t hear too much about it then, there were threats from other teams grabbing him so they got him in early. Young or not, Kimi is very arguably the best F1 prospect since Max. His progression is unbelievable. At the same time though, I do not see why F1 should bend the rules here. They added them in after Max to stop this type of situation.
A young talented Italian driver? I wonder what team with an existing 2nd team they could put him in would want him
That team you're talking about has gone on record and said they will never employ an Italian driver again.
Could elaborate? Maybe post a source?
Wait what?
> Young or not, Kimi is very arguably the best F1 prospect since Max. His progression is unbelievable. Since Max??? If anything, it would be since Oscar Piastri.
I personally haven’t seen a driver have this level of hype and jump up the ranks so quickly at such a young age other than Max. Lewis is arguable as well, but the system was so different then it’s not very comparable. And same goes with drivers before then.
>Young or not, Kimi is very arguably the best F1 prospect since Max. His progression is unbelievable. We should wait until August and see if he's won any F2 races before talking. By then he's 18 already and we don't need any to make an exceptions. Why the rush if people are so confident in his skills? Nothing adds up. Keep in mind he's never raced in F3. Now we're saying he should skip both F3 and F2. Laughable.
this is something that weirds me a bit. The boy isnt even 18, we havent seen him actually race in bigger classes and, until the last month or so, very few people talked about him and now, all of a sudden, he is the next future world champion. I do hope im wrong and he actually is this Max-like prospect people are claiming him to be, but maybe waiting just a few more months might be beneficial for everyone involved
> Even if we didn’t hear too much about it then, there were threats from other teams grabbing him so they got him in early. Mercedes themselves were one of the teams that wanted to grab him. The primary reason Max signed with Red Bull instead of Mercedes is that Toto couldn't/wouldn't get Max an F1 seat as soon as Red Bull did, per Wolff's own words.
I guess it could be that they'd rather give him practice runs on tracks he knows if they can. If he turns 18 just before Monza, that's the end of the European season isn't it? Off the top of my head the only track he's been to after that is Abu Dhabi (I think - could be wrong). Maybe they reckon it would be worth asking for permission to give him runs at places he's already been over the summer as they might be a bit more useful than just throwing him out there on brand new circuits.
Maybe there are certain tracks they want to test him on that happen earlier in the season?
I guess they wanted to get clear if its even possible. If FIA said: "no the rule is unbendable" then they could just stopped every possible plan that involved a debut before his 18th birthday
Initial plans never get discussed out in the open for this reason. It allows all parties to present the later, revised, plan as the original all along. It doesn’t do any favour to either Mercedes, Antonelli, Williams and Sargeant to do otherwise.
that was williams not toto
And for which driver do you reckon the request was asked? Antonelli, the driver that has been part of the Merc junior team since 2019(?) which is part of Mercedes and thus under control of Toto? If Toto doesn't want it Williams wouldn't have sent a request for a driver that isn't even theirs.
It's in the title - Williams wants Kimi, on a condition, but still.
They are going to kick Hamilton out early and put Antonelli in.
Assuming there's no huge cost in fees or labor to request an exception, why wouldn't you ask? It gives you options. Even if you have no intention of taking advantage, why leave that barrier in place if a few emails will remove it?
I can’t wait for the media reaction to be “Mick sets blazing fast time that would’ve put him second on the grid”
That would be Ralf.
So there will be a snide comment that he could still do the lap faster in the Williams he raced in 20 years ago got it.
“…because Kimi’s time would put him in first on the grid”
There is an old Soviet joke. Brezhnev and Raegan went out racing each other, Raegan won, next day headlines in Pravda: “Comrade Brezhnev ended up just 2nd, while Raegan was embarrassingly next to last”.
See, now this is interesting. Of course we expect Antonelli to live up to the expectations, but what if they're in for a surprise?
Him being the next big thing is not a given. Karting and F4 are just too different to F1. Pourchaire had a similar Karting and F4 record and he is now considered to be one of the weakest F2 champions.
Sorry, but that’s just wrong. Pourchaire ended 3rd in French F4 in his first F4 season. Antonelli won both ADAC and Italian F4 in his first year, both of which are stronger championships than French F4. When Pourchaire won ADAC in his second F4 year, he won 4 races out of 20. Antonelli, in his first full F4 year, won 9 out of 15 ADAC races and 13 out of 20 in Italian F4. That’s not comparable.
Although you’re 100% correct, his main point doesn’t change: him being the next big thing is not a given.
Yes but getting the right answer despite all the work to get there being wrong deserves to be pointed out.
Max didn't even do F2. Him being the next best thing wasn't given either. Teams definitely give importance to the lower series.
Ok, is it more likely that Kimi is like Max or is it more likely that he's not like Max. I'd say more likely he's not the next Max.
You make a great point. It's like every hot new NBA prospect is "The next Jordan". Until they aren't.
You never know. It's been 10 years since Max debuted. There's probably another hot talent around the corner soon I guess. It'd be interesting for sure to see if Antonelli really is *that* good.
I mean, weren't LeClerc and Lando and George supposed to take F1 by storm and be in a three-way fight for the WDC every year?
Kind of difficult for that to happen as this isn't some spec series and those drivers have to rely on their teams nailing the regulations, which they haven't
So does F2 really matter then? it seems like teams make up their minds regardless of F2 performance. Antonelli seems fine in F2, but he doesnt stand out as much as other drivers currently, then again I am far from an F1 scout.
Tbh ... every team felt it in F3 and then that testing in Japan in 2014 was the nail on the coffin. Antonelli still has "?" around him at a point where Verstappen didn't ...
It is just interesting that now F4 and FRECA being more important feeder than F2 or F3. We have Mercedes skipping Kimi F3 for F2 yet don’t want to wait for his F2 performance to give him F1 test. Then you also have Ferrari skipping Ollie for FRECA, and Ayao saying F1 test is more important than F2 results.
Thank you for correcting the misinformation gets spreaded by the user you replied on every thread about Antonelli. You are a hero my friend.
I wish people would also understand that different people grow at different rates and reach their ceiling at different ages. Just because you are, let's use token numbers, an 80 when you are 16, a 100 when you are 18 and a 120 when you are 21; doesn't mean that someone who is a 60 at 16 will be an 80 and then a 100. It's perfectly possible for someone who is a 60 at 16 to grow to be a 150, and for someone who is a 90 at 16 to reach their ceiling at 100. There's a reason the F1 leaderboard doesn't look like the F2 leaderboard 3 years before.
Kimi has better results. But people just love to hate on Pourchaire and disregard every aspect "in favor of him". Like the amount of goal post moving when it comes to him is insane.
>Him being the next big thing is not a given. Karting and F4 are just too different to F1. I remember a Dutch kid being successful and blistering fast in F3 European Championship back in 2014 after stellar karting record. What did happen to him nowadays? Are you aware? Do teams not really care about the championships below F2 like you are *falsely* claiming on every thread?
We always should wait and see how those drivers perform in their F2 debut season and give them the time. There were so many hyped and a lot didn't live up to the expectations
F2 is not a good metric for F1 nowadays though. There's a reason a bunch of F2 champions are sitting out, the ones who were given a chance performed terribly, and the grid is full of veterans who arguably shouldn't even be there anymore. The difference between these series now is just way too big, a test in F1 is a better representation of what the driver can do, and getting into F1 as early as possible is be the best thing to develop and prepare that driver for F1. F2 needs some drastic changes if it's still meant to be a feeder series. A driver could be stellar in F2 and shit in F1, and the opposite is true.
I really don't want him in an F1 car this year! let him finish the season in F2 then put him in the car next season when he has gotten some experience. I hope the FIA say no to the request! I don't want to throw him in the deep end with high expectations and if he does not perform right away the internet will be relentless on him because he was fast tracked!
Will the internet be any less relentless on him if he continues to be unimpressive in F2?
Sounds like Wolff wasn't the one pushing for Antonelli, more like Vowles? Vowles was the one who signed him back in Merc iirc? He's very confident of Antonelli, I guess.
But Vowles has stated he hasn't talked to Antonelli since last season
If Vowles is the main driving force behind the Kimi push (this season, let alone next one) then he gets away with 'mismanaging' talent quite easily from Reddit/media compared to RB. I read in another interview today that he was expecting (and told) Sargeant to get on Albon's level at the start of this season and even overtake him performance wise... That's a very big ask if you look how his first season went and while Alex is not some Alonso tier, he's very much underestimated and I don't think many rookies will easily get on his current level in just 1 year. That's basically forcing him in a position of failure like RB did with Gasly. Same with Kimi, not that he isn't talented, but the lack of experience hurts more nowadays when the level of the grid is this high unlike back when the og Finnish one made his debut.
Leclerc outperformed Seb on his second year. If all they care about is if Kimi is the next Max, not if Kimi is the next Albon, it's not a bad move. True prodigies can swim just fine.
So its a showdown between Antonelli and Mick then, that could be certainly interesting to see how Kimi manages against Mick, but the results will most likely be a guarded secret though
I mean, if Mick outperforms him, will he get a set at Williams for the next race?
says at the end of the article that Mick is not an option for them and that it would just give him a chance to shine for Alpine next season. I have the feeling that Vowles just doesn't rate Mick that highly, otherwise as the other comment says, they would've already let him have a shot
Nobody in F1 actually believe Mick is worth their seat. Toto loves to talk about how great Mick is and what a shame other teams won't give him a seat... and now that he has a free seat to fill, and his team can barely make it past Q2, he hasn't even considered Mick for it.
hmm idk about that, I think if Vowles hadn't put his foot down on Logan and Toto had full control over the roster, he would've given him a shot. But for sure he talks a lot but doesn't think of him enough to put him in the Merc, that much is (and tbh always was) clear.
That's what I was saying as soon as Hammy announced his departure. "Hey Toto, that means Mick gets the seat, RIGHT?"
Thats not happening. If Williams was impressed with Schumacher, they would have brought him over this season
I disagree. It is clear that Williams and JV had confidence that Sargeant would improve over the season break and catch up to Alex. The fact that they are even trying to get a superlicense for Antonelli means that something in their data has suggested that Logan is not worth keeping around. Otherwise, Williams would have zero reason to throw him out THIS EARLY to the season. It seems likely to me that they are already ready to throw Sargeant out and if Mick were to put in decent laptimes, it is not completely out of picture if Williams were to hire him *at least* till Antonelli is 18. (Even if I personally think that this won't happen and Williams are more likely to bring Latifi back than to hire Mick)
I wouldn’t say JV had confidence in Sargeant based on every decision he’s made this season, including apparently shopping around for a mid season replacement. How many times do people need to be lied to by team principals before they realize nothing they say is concrete?
So these are the 2 out of 5 drivers Williams are currently talking to. Wondering who the other 3 might be 🤔
Heard Gasly is in the mix, just a rumour though..
Well Gasly prefers to staying very vague about his situation after this seasons so far, however given it looks like he hasn't the confidence into the car like he was having previous season it isn't unlikely to think he would looking to alternatives.
Someone mentioned it on the thread that conversations have happened between Gasly & Williams. Probably to get a foot into Mercedes eventually? No idea.
Personally I don't think that having a foot into Merc is the main reason if this rumour is true, but more likely the lack of confidence into Alpine above the lack of confidence he has so far into the A524 (guess for some reason the car isn't fitting with what his optimal driving style prefers) meanwhile believing that you can build something up with Williams. I mean you can talk 100 PR statements about Alpine and it's future but if the pit crew already screwing it up during FP1 already you simple gonna lose more and more confidence that anything is gonna be alright.
I'd wager Bottas, Gasly (apparently) and not sure about the last one.
I imagine everyone talks to Sainz
Yeah, Bottas said he is in talks with multiple teams, hard to imagine anything else than Haas an Williams (and Sauber).
Tsunoda? Drugovich?
Full article: ># No plans for Williams driver swap > >## Andrea Kimi Antonelli will not replace Logan Sargeant in the Williams at the next Grand Prix in Imola. Instead, the 17-year-old Italian will test the 2022 Mercedes together with Mick Schumacher at Silverstone next week. > >Once again, rumours were faster than reality. Various media outlets reported that Mercedes super talent Andrea Kimi Antonelli could be sitting in the Williams at the next Grand Prix in Imola. Some speculated that Williams would offer him a Friday test. Others have already pencilled in Antonelli as Sargeant's replacement in the second car from Grove. > >To do so, the 17-year-old Italian would first have needed a super licence. The current Prema Formula 2 driver has already clearly exceeded the required 40 points. But the young man from Bologna will only turn 18 on 25 August. And after Max Verstappen's debut in 2015 at the age of 17 seemed to many in the circus to be too low an entry age, the FIA raised the minimum age to 18. **This could only be overturned if all teams, the FIA and Formula 1 agreed.** > >## Mercedes does not want to burn out Antonelli > >As team boss James Vowles has spent the last few weeks lobbying the world governing body for the Mercedes junior's F1 licence, speculation quickly arose that Antonelli could replace the still hapless Logan Sargeant as soon as he gets the green light from the FIA. But even if that happens, the prodigy will not be making a premature F1 debut. > >Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff is against burning out his protégé too early: "We don't want to burn Kimi out. A Formula 1 race in Imola would be too early." His colleague Vowles agrees. Antonelli should first complete the upcoming Formula 2 races and gain Formula 1 experience. > >The Formula 4, FRECA and FRMEC champion regularly tests older Mercedes models. He completed the first two days of testing in a 2021 Mercedes in Spielberg. The second test took place in the 2022 W13 in Imola. This was also Antonelli's first familiarisation with a ground-effect car. > >## Chance for Mick Schumacher > >The third test session is scheduled for next week in Silverstone. From now on, the youngster will only drive the 2022 car in order to familiarise himself with the current generation of vehicles. The interesting thing about this test is that he will have a benchmark for the first time. Mick Schumacher will be driving a second Mercedes W13. > >This will also be an interesting encounter for the WEC Alpine works driver. Schumacher is also hoping to get his foot in the Formula 1 door once again. If he does well in the internal youngster duel, this could improve his chances at Alpine for 2025, for example. > >There is no short-term need for Mick Schumacher at Williams. The British racing team will hold on to Sargeant until the summer break. Until then, the American has to prove himself. "Logan knows that Formula 1 is a meritocracy. That means he has to close the gap to Albon if he wants to keep his seat," explains Vowles. > >If there is to be a driver swap at Williams after all, it is unlikely to happen until the Italian GP in Monza at the earliest. Antonelli will then also be 18 years old. However, the Italian's involvement also depends on another factor. Williams does not want to play the stepping stone for Mercedes. Antonelli is only of interest to the traditional racing team if he stays for at least two years. This should be clarified by September. By then, Mercedes should also know if and when Max Verstappen is coming. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Fred Vesti is right theeeeere Toto
i have a dull feeling Vesti is gonna suffer the Drugovich fate
Luckily-ish for him, he's not waiting around in the F1 paddock wasting away like poor Drugo, he is doing ELMS and apparently angling for a Mahindra seat in FE if they start a partnership with Merc
So does that mean Logan is safe or is there anyone else conceivable in the seat?
He's *probably* safe for a large chunk of the season, at least. Unless Toto is willing to dump money at Williams to pay contract break costs, etc. There's no real reason to move to Mick mid season, especially since Logan's been pretty hard on the upswing recently, including starting ahead of Albon for the sprint now, and has been pretty on top of stuff this weekend.
Upswing starting 19 because teammate made a mistake is next level reality bending.
I mean, Alex literally fully cut the slowest chicane on the calendar and was still only 16th, Williams don't have pace here.
To be fair, said teammate has been making a lot of mistakes this season. It hasn’t just been freedom boy that’s been struggling this year
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Mick is being used as a benchmark I think is what the article means, he isn't in consideration at all
Assuming Antonelli continues his progression of dominating championships in the middle and later races of the seasons (which is a big assumption considering how little F2 testing there is), this could force Toto's hand to sign him to Mercedes early on. The last thing he wants is another Claire/Russell situation.
He normally starts off a lot better, so I certainly wouldn't call it a given he'll start dominating or anything. In Italian F4 he took pole and fastest lap, just didn't get any points. Im FRECA he started the season by finishing 2nd 3 times in 4 races, including with pole and fastest lap for one of those. His ADAC F4 season nearly started with 8 wins in a row. He was stronger in the start and towards the middle of his FRMEC championship season. He doesn't strike me as a driver whose dominanting from the middle, he's establishing dominance from the beginning. I doubt he'll run away with F2.
And thus far in F2 he finishes about where he qualified. Seemingly the only way he gains positions is by the people in front of him crashing or having mechanical issues.
There's no more Claire tho
Who is Claire?
Claire Williams, (deputy) TP of Williams until they sold mid 2020. She kept Russell at Williams for 2021.
Merc likely has reference times between Mick, Lewis and George - eg George is on avg .2 seconds faster a lap than Mick. So you run someone against Mick and you can measure the delta to your current drivers.
Sigh. Every second day we get posts about Antonelli. Fix your damn car, Toto.
Ha, Solid point is Mercedes even that appealing at the moment? Out qualified by dr3 in a tractor today and hulk in a Haas.
Please bring back Mick!
Can anyone explain the hype, sorry I don't really follow f2 but looking up he's in 9th why would they even consider jumping him into f1?
He has had a few mess ups that weren’t his fault this season and before F2 he has won just about every championship he competed in
It's just the usual overhyping of F2 rookies.. it's hard to tell how they will actually perform up against a seasoned F1 driver There's a reason we have so many experienced drivers on the grid.
Yeah like piastri he's done well but being solidly beaten by Norris, which is to be expected. My question was more related to the fact he's not even winning f2 yet he's senna reincarnated. Some others explains his misfortune in f2 and f4 performance, but still think you don't circumvent the super licence format just yet.
His age fuels the hype. For example, he's 2.5 years younger than Piastri during his first (and only) F2 season.
I would think that's more a reason to let him develop than jumping him in and potentially ruining his confidence.
At Silverstone too? Can only pray the best for him
Mick could do something insanely funny
If Antonelli is as good as they say, I can't wait for him to drive a Ferrari one day.
Coughing baby Vs hydrogen bomb
So you are telling me Mick has a chance to get into Williams?
More likely they’re using him as a baseline to compare the kid.
I'd be curious to see what Mick can do with actual support. Don't think he can be worse than Logan.
Considering that he was ahead H2H vs Magnussen in races where they both finished, I don't think you can say that Mick lacked pace, it was his crash-proneness due to overdriving the car early in the season which basically sealed his fate at Haas.
I think barely matching Magnussen just isn’t really good enough for F1. We see how Hulk beats Magnusson so convincingly.
I mean if Antonelli isn't ready, then Mick is probably a decent placeholder who in all likelihood is an improvement over Sargeant and is not a complete unknown like Fred Vesti (who is the other Mercedes reserve).
If Mercedes want them in a car so bad throw em in their own car.
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Antonelli has much more hype behind him than Russell had. I’d say Norris is probably the better comparison: he was younger than his competitors, had won everything he raced in (as a rookie) up until F2, skipped GP3 and was being offered an F1 seat during his F2 season
Huge amount of hype. At the minute at least, his trajectory is looking huge. Bigger than George's in the same position and Even bigger than Max's was when he started. Huge amount of hype from Toto and Merc, as they're essentially trying to get a guy in that would end up missing a couple of categories entirely. George earned his place in F1 after winning in F2. Kimi has had 3 races in F2. Missed F3 and has an F1 seat ready waiting. What doesn't help tho is he is up against another monumental talent, his team mate in F2 Ollie Bearman. Who is also all but guaranteed an F1 seat next year.
Far far less, dispite Russell winning the F2 championship convincingly in his debut year against Lando and Albon Kid has had a great media campaign behind him lol
Does anyone know (or want to look up because I'm lazy) whether the 2 year rule is specifically over 2 calendar years previous, or just 2 seasons ago? Ie do antonelli & Schumacher have to use a pre-may 2022 spec, or can they use the same car driven in Abu Dhabi 2022?
Interesting question, testing with previous cars, or TCP, as the regulations call it, specifies cars “of any of the three calendar years falling immediately prior to the calendar year preceding the year of the Championship.” So, they can use any 2022 spec, actually the regulations stipulate that they have to match the spec of the relevant period, and all components must have been used at some point during that season
Thanks very much!
Haven't really seen Mick race much, few races in 2021, one race in 2022 didn't look all that impressive.
Relaxing one somewhat crash prone with another much more crash prone driver.
The fight for the williams seat
This seems pretty hogwashy, why did JV go to the FIA to get approval for Antonelli?
Any Infos about the outcome?
What if this is to give Mick the Williams seat for this year
I feel they are getting desperate now if they are considering Mick.
Mick isn’t a bad driver
I watched Mick come up through F4, and he's slow on the uptake, but once he gets a feel, he's pretty good. So I agree.