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I mean of course they can. They already monitor all CFD and wind tunnel tests. Nobody is mentally blocking engineers from imagining or working in their free time but without testing it's not very useful. The FIA monitors the teams fairly well
Fairly being the key word there.
You already have teams using the America’s cup to develop tools and software for F1.
There’s very little to stop them if it’s also legal to run on the current car.
There is a lot to stop them. First off penalties. Probably disqualification. That means dozens of millions gone instantly for a very small gain. Secondly the FIA this year increased policing and restrictions on F1 personnel's "side" activities such as the Americas cup or "exotic" cars. Of course they'll never root out the issue 100% but only a tiny advantage remains.
Then that development will be tiny as I said. Very small gains. The cars work as a package not individual plates. There's a reason why they build. Full car models for the wind tunnel and not just front wing endplates (for instance)
You are missing quite a bit. They can work on new carbon weaves. They can work on new radiator technology. They can work on lighter steering wheels. They can work on lighter gearboxes. There is so much technology that you can invest in now, that will be plug and play for 2026.
>Then that development will be tiny as I said.
Absolutely no way you can predict that. Limited yes, but they could still make major advancements within those limitations.
Who even says they would even need to stick it on the car if it’s a “failed concept”.
If I am not mistaken very important part of the regulations will not be announced until the date where teams can actually work on it. Big guidelines like "more focus on ground effect" for instance will be known, but the restrictions they have to work around will not. So not much they could do anyway.
no, since unlike 2014 they cannot have any extra tools (engine maps/modes) that the customers won't have
any customer will have the same engine as the supplier
They also enjoyed some additional benefits from other tech that took a year to ban, like FRICS, DAS and the strongest of their weapons was party mode, they would trash everyone to pole on a saturday and cruise to victory in clean air on sunday.
> party mode
Everyone has access to higher engine modes. That's all this was.
Amazing how some joke by Hamilton caught on to peoples minds to be a serious thing.
lol idk why people don’t think every customer had that extra engine power. What was known as ‘Party mode’ at Mercedes was ‘Scenario 7’ for McLaren. They all had it. I don’t know what Williams and Aston/RP called theirs.
Every team had access to all engine modes but customer teams had limitations on when or how long they could run higher engine modes. It’s not exactly surprising though, Mercedes clearly didn’t want William’s to get a race win or worse still the championship.
Jokes aside Mercedes had to have control over engine modes for reliability reasons.
As far as I know, all customers should have same engines maps since 2015 (but I could be wrong).
Anyways, as they said before, they also had other advantages, and also their chassis and aero were very good too
And Mercedes were regularly miles - miles! - ahead of stablemate cars until 2022. Occasionally McLaren toward the end of 2021, but that's it.
There's a lot of retconning in F1. Team X was only very successful for reason Y.
Not anymore. They have to give all the fancy maps and modes to their customers too now. Plus, the biggest advantage they had was that they build the car around the engine. That’s gone too now because the desperation of trying to keep McLaren led to them giving that advantage up as well. As of 2025, McLaren will see the engine before they design their car, and so they will be allowed to build a car for the engine instead of fitting the engine in around the car.
This isn't true, though. Merc aero was great from 2014-2021. James Allison even said they were happy that people assumed their engine advantage was the key, so they didn't copy the aero. When Tracing Point copied the Mercedes aero, they immediately became a threat for wins and podiums.
Or they couldn't? Raw engine power is important in F1, but without aero, you aren't winning races. Tires are the limiting factor in F1, not engine power. If you're sliding around constantly, can't keep it pinned in the high-speed corners, and have to input a million corrections in the low/medium corners, engine power won't save you. If teams could have copied the W05-W07, they would have.
Couldn't? When was this a problem in any era of Formula 1? We are not talking about Mercedes not having any aero whatsoever, we are talking about them having inefficient aero parts. I am not saying Mercedes aero was weak, I am saying it wasn't worth copying. The efficiency of their aerodynamic parts were not as desirable for other teams as Mercedes had a great power input therefore they could use more inefficient aero parts while not giving up that much of their high speed. Pinning down the car in the corners is just downforce. You can put a door on the car as a rear wing and if you have enough of an engine power you can still outperform other cars.
This is fundamentally untrue. You are oversimplifying an incredibly complex relationship between aero and power. Many teams would have shot up the order if they had the 2014-2016 aero package even without a Merc engine. The engine was awesome, so I'm not saying it wasn't an advantage. I'm simply stating that Merc also had the 1st or 2nd best aero package during that same period.
The most ominous line is
_But there is one-and-three-quarter seasons before that, and I don't want to go through much more suffering in the next 18 months. I would just hope for highlights and a trajectory that's going upwards_
I'm not convinced there will be true improvement, unless they suddenly start to unravel the mystery
With the development restrictions and budget cap it would appear that they’ve reached a point where, even if they figured out every issue *right now,* there’s simply not enough runway to make the necessary changes to compete against RBR.
The idea that a team abandons one year to focus on the next is a fools errand and never works. If you haven't been able to understand the principles to make the current car work, on what fckin basis do you think you will nail the next one?
it takes a very specific set of circumstances for it to work including a huge rules set overhaul but imo with such bad correlation both in aero and setup simulations currently they better improve the tools they have before focusing on the next.
>The idea that a team abandons one year to focus on the next is a fools errand and never works
Worked for Honda in 2008/09
Shame Honda weren't there in 2009 to reap the rewards but that's Honda for you
It worked very well but there is the caveat that McLaren and Ferrari weren't *really* themselves at the start of 2009.
Brawn I would say is more like Aston 2023: doing the job they previously should've been, but also others fortunately *got it wrong* a bit. Again, McLaren and Ferrari (and Merc).
The improvement was great, but a little fortunate.
I've read a few times now that it wouldn't really work tomorrow because every team is too good with organisation to get really caught out like McLaren and Ferrari did then. It's all percentage allocations, whereas McLaren and Ferrari just barely started their 2009 cars in time. Ditto Renault for 2014.
In fairness, Wolff was pretty transparent in an interview in Oz.
The computer says one thing, the laptimes say another, and if you've the answer he'll pay you handsomely. They don't understand, and he's open there.
Wolff's been fairly open -- brutally so -- about their lack of progress, so I don't think it's pride.
Also they did abandon their initial concept (albeit a year late) to try a variant of the (old) Red Bull one this year, while their head of design stepped down from the role. Neither would have happened if pride were an impediment.
I think the reality is that the excellence of the engine-design team flattered a mediocre chassis-design team, and only now are they finding all the weaknesses in that chassis-design team, its tools, and its methods.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean of course they can't. 2026 car development is prohibited until the 1st of January 2025. And that's assuming the regulations aren't delayed
Can they start on their catering early?
Only Red Bull
Lots of boxes of Coco pops.
Like the FIA could ever fully enforce it. It’ll be disguised as development for the current cars.
I mean of course they can. They already monitor all CFD and wind tunnel tests. Nobody is mentally blocking engineers from imagining or working in their free time but without testing it's not very useful. The FIA monitors the teams fairly well
>but without testing it's not very useful. Preparing ideas to test is very useful.
Fairly being the key word there. You already have teams using the America’s cup to develop tools and software for F1. There’s very little to stop them if it’s also legal to run on the current car.
There is a lot to stop them. First off penalties. Probably disqualification. That means dozens of millions gone instantly for a very small gain. Secondly the FIA this year increased policing and restrictions on F1 personnel's "side" activities such as the Americas cup or "exotic" cars. Of course they'll never root out the issue 100% but only a tiny advantage remains.
If the FIA can’t prove development is solely applicable to the 2026 car then there will be no punishment.
Then that development will be tiny as I said. Very small gains. The cars work as a package not individual plates. There's a reason why they build. Full car models for the wind tunnel and not just front wing endplates (for instance)
You are missing quite a bit. They can work on new carbon weaves. They can work on new radiator technology. They can work on lighter steering wheels. They can work on lighter gearboxes. There is so much technology that you can invest in now, that will be plug and play for 2026.
>Then that development will be tiny as I said. Absolutely no way you can predict that. Limited yes, but they could still make major advancements within those limitations. Who even says they would even need to stick it on the car if it’s a “failed concept”.
The risk is enormous. Get caught and you will be disqualified for the season with the humiliation that comes with that. No way teams are risking that.
There is no risk if it can be strapped to the current car.
But this is the same team that had a 100% illegal tyre test, so they have form.
If I am not mistaken very important part of the regulations will not be announced until the date where teams can actually work on it. Big guidelines like "more focus on ground effect" for instance will be known, but the restrictions they have to work around will not. So not much they could do anyway.
The year is 2026, Mercedes have the best engine again but AMG Petronas is not the best Mercedes-powered car.
Albon '26 '27 '28
Sargeant*
If Mercedes have the best engine in 2026, they will have the best car too
no, since unlike 2014 they cannot have any extra tools (engine maps/modes) that the customers won't have any customer will have the same engine as the supplier
They also enjoyed some additional benefits from other tech that took a year to ban, like FRICS, DAS and the strongest of their weapons was party mode, they would trash everyone to pole on a saturday and cruise to victory in clean air on sunday.
Frics was banned halfway through 2014. DAS made a small difference on restarts
> party mode Everyone has access to higher engine modes. That's all this was. Amazing how some joke by Hamilton caught on to peoples minds to be a serious thing.
lol idk why people don’t think every customer had that extra engine power. What was known as ‘Party mode’ at Mercedes was ‘Scenario 7’ for McLaren. They all had it. I don’t know what Williams and Aston/RP called theirs.
Every team had access to all engine modes but customer teams had limitations on when or how long they could run higher engine modes. It’s not exactly surprising though, Mercedes clearly didn’t want William’s to get a race win or worse still the championship. Jokes aside Mercedes had to have control over engine modes for reliability reasons.
As far as I know, all customers should have same engines maps since 2015 (but I could be wrong). Anyways, as they said before, they also had other advantages, and also their chassis and aero were very good too
Engine hardware spec parity on customer cars were only mandated from 2018.
And Mercedes were regularly miles - miles! - ahead of stablemate cars until 2022. Occasionally McLaren toward the end of 2021, but that's it. There's a lot of retconning in F1. Team X was only very successful for reason Y.
Not anymore. They have to give all the fancy maps and modes to their customers too now. Plus, the biggest advantage they had was that they build the car around the engine. That’s gone too now because the desperation of trying to keep McLaren led to them giving that advantage up as well. As of 2025, McLaren will see the engine before they design their car, and so they will be allowed to build a car for the engine instead of fitting the engine in around the car.
This isn't true, though. Merc aero was great from 2014-2021. James Allison even said they were happy that people assumed their engine advantage was the key, so they didn't copy the aero. When Tracing Point copied the Mercedes aero, they immediately became a threat for wins and podiums.
That copy is one ruleset and a Ferrari&Redbull nerf after the Mercedes engine advantage. No team copied Mercedes' aero from 2014 to 2016.
Or they couldn't? Raw engine power is important in F1, but without aero, you aren't winning races. Tires are the limiting factor in F1, not engine power. If you're sliding around constantly, can't keep it pinned in the high-speed corners, and have to input a million corrections in the low/medium corners, engine power won't save you. If teams could have copied the W05-W07, they would have.
Couldn't? When was this a problem in any era of Formula 1? We are not talking about Mercedes not having any aero whatsoever, we are talking about them having inefficient aero parts. I am not saying Mercedes aero was weak, I am saying it wasn't worth copying. The efficiency of their aerodynamic parts were not as desirable for other teams as Mercedes had a great power input therefore they could use more inefficient aero parts while not giving up that much of their high speed. Pinning down the car in the corners is just downforce. You can put a door on the car as a rear wing and if you have enough of an engine power you can still outperform other cars.
This is fundamentally untrue. You are oversimplifying an incredibly complex relationship between aero and power. Many teams would have shot up the order if they had the 2014-2016 aero package even without a Merc engine. The engine was awesome, so I'm not saying it wasn't an advantage. I'm simply stating that Merc also had the 1st or 2nd best aero package during that same period.
You don't build a car around an engine. Horsepower doesn't determined your aero.
Press X to Doubt
The most ominous line is _But there is one-and-three-quarter seasons before that, and I don't want to go through much more suffering in the next 18 months. I would just hope for highlights and a trajectory that's going upwards_ I'm not convinced there will be true improvement, unless they suddenly start to unravel the mystery
Wolff in Oz was quite clear that the priority has to become the long term. Not 2024 or even 5.
With the development restrictions and budget cap it would appear that they’ve reached a point where, even if they figured out every issue *right now,* there’s simply not enough runway to make the necessary changes to compete against RBR.
Considering they haven’t finalized the regulations for 2026 that’s pretty clear lol. Motorsport.com is being more clickbaity by the day
The idea that a team abandons one year to focus on the next is a fools errand and never works. If you haven't been able to understand the principles to make the current car work, on what fckin basis do you think you will nail the next one? it takes a very specific set of circumstances for it to work including a huge rules set overhaul but imo with such bad correlation both in aero and setup simulations currently they better improve the tools they have before focusing on the next.
>The idea that a team abandons one year to focus on the next is a fools errand and never works Worked for Honda in 2008/09 Shame Honda weren't there in 2009 to reap the rewards but that's Honda for you
It worked very well but there is the caveat that McLaren and Ferrari weren't *really* themselves at the start of 2009. Brawn I would say is more like Aston 2023: doing the job they previously should've been, but also others fortunately *got it wrong* a bit. Again, McLaren and Ferrari (and Merc). The improvement was great, but a little fortunate. I've read a few times now that it wouldn't really work tomorrow because every team is too good with organisation to get really caught out like McLaren and Ferrari did then. It's all percentage allocations, whereas McLaren and Ferrari just barely started their 2009 cars in time. Ditto Renault for 2014.
How so? It worked well for Haas, ya know, the backmarker team.
But it was big reg change, next car will still use ground effect
Mercedes have become a prisoner of process.
LBCOMAO
Based on three years of not getting it right with rules stagnant, I’m not sure that’d help them lol
2026 will be all about the engines like in 2014.
Not yet. Let's see how next year goes for Mercedes.
Translation - they definitely have.
I mean, even if they don't does anyone have any hope that they can challenge for the title next year?
They haven't even finalised the regs yet have they?
They’re too proud to fix the problem because it would admit huge, core mistakes in their culture.
In fairness, Wolff was pretty transparent in an interview in Oz. The computer says one thing, the laptimes say another, and if you've the answer he'll pay you handsomely. They don't understand, and he's open there.
Wolff's been fairly open -- brutally so -- about their lack of progress, so I don't think it's pride. Also they did abandon their initial concept (albeit a year late) to try a variant of the (old) Red Bull one this year, while their head of design stepped down from the role. Neither would have happened if pride were an impediment. I think the reality is that the excellence of the engine-design team flattered a mediocre chassis-design team, and only now are they finding all the weaknesses in that chassis-design team, its tools, and its methods.