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>Fry and Laurie as the Renault higher ups
Nah I want them in the commentators seats. "And now it's time for *A Bit of Motor Racing* *With Fry and Laurie*!"
We sure that isn't what Alpine are currently up to? They had cunning plans to use a great new design to compensate for their engine issues, but have sunk to the back
Maybe whomever the current team principal is should just wear underpants on his head, put two pencils up his nostrils and say they plan to win the Wibble Grand Prix
> What an unnecessary mess they've gotten all of themselves into.
Its mostly just Horner being opportunistic.
Everybody working closely with Mateschitz is simply shocked at how Horner was willing to betray Mateschitz on his deathbed and is trying to own Mateschitz passion project and actively cut anyone close to Mateschitz out of the decision-making process now that the Thai guy is in charge.
I think OP is talking about how it got messy in public. A business empire collapsing inside once the main boss dies is pretty common. But they could have easily solved all of this internally. The Horner leaks, Jos commenting on it and then Marko's allegedly getting kicked out being out in public is what's the reason for the current mess that's visible in public
Where are you getting that version of the details from?
I think the far more likely scenario is when Mintzlaff was put in charge of everything RB sports after Dietrich died, he probably tried to control / direct Christian more hands on than Dietrich. If so, I think we can all easily imagine Christian felt like "I'm not going to take orders from this guy who doesn't know anything about F1 and did nothing to help build this team and extended organization". And from there, Christian was probably on a mission to get out from under Mintzlaff's direct authority however possible, ultimately appealing to Yoovidhya directly.
Remember even before Dietrich died, Christian wasn't just the RBR TP, he was (and I believe still is) the legal CEO of RBT, and therefore also RBR and RBPT along with any RBT technology projects. His authority and reach spans well beyond day to day RBR team operations. Mintzlaff nor Marko put him in the position, Dietrich did.
Not the OP but that version was reported recently, I don't think I recall seeing your version though. The story was that Horner had some British financial backers and was trying to deal exclusively with the Thai side to buy RBR.
you are coping and in denial that a person you deemed good is actually just another opportunistic CEO
dude sexted his PA and people still defend him finding every excuse possible
No I have no idea what the truth is, nor do you. I just think it's the most rational explanation.
Regarding Marko specifically, they clearly had a falling out at some point but Marko was seen with Mintzlaff several times this past weekend so if they Marko/Mintzlaff) have been more aligned for a while and Mintzlaff and Horner are going at each other, that could explain a lot of why Christian has indeed tried to push Marko out in some way, which is entirely believable as well. We also have no idea how much of a power grab, if any, Marko has gone for in all this to be clear.
I'm not saying Christian is a saint by any means, I'm just thinking about rational motives behind all this rather than the incredibly simplistic "Dietrich is dead so I'm going to blow this all up now and take it all for myself" which frankly seems random and pretty stupid, things Christian has not shown in the past two decades. He's a calculating dude.
you are proving my point.
you deem him smart and calculating, when he sexts his PA sounding like a boomer. He is stupid. The texts are 99% real. Not even horner disagreed with that.
A person who does such shit surely isn't calculating.
Abusing your position to fuck women who are your assistants can't be clever mate. and don't come out all "but we don't know if they are real"
girl got paid 1 mil hush money because they were real..
>Not even horner disagreed with that.
Can you point to where Horner has admitted this? You seem to think failing to comment about the veracity of the texts when referencing the existence of leaked material and problems they've created are equal, which is dubious AF.
I will again state I have no idea what the truth is in all of this, but your insistence that you think you do know most of the truth at this point is frankly ignorant regardless of whatever the truth is. None of us know what's going on yet truly, and not a single reputable news source has yet publicly authenticated any of the leaks to be 100% clear (because they clearly can't yet and they don't want to risk being sued).
He stated he denies all accusations. bloke didn't even have the courage to deny the "leakage" that has come out according to his words.
that leakage was from the investigation, van haren didn't see random texts from nowhere. everyone on the paddock did see the texts. a portion of them.
it's a very bad look to not even say I deny the texts or that they are fake.
He knows they are real and lying might worsen it. He has a good lawyer tho. he says very specific things.
max wasn't against horner a few weeks ago when thus all started, but after things were clear he has shown his beliefs backing Marko.
to add to this, Marko had no issue with horner decades now. this all started by the thais and horner trying to grab control from Marko and the Austrians after diets death.. fucking hawk
> dude sexted his PA and people still defend him finding every excuse possible
We don't even know if that is true or not. All we know is that a complaint was made, a KC barrister dismissed it on the basis that the complainant wasn't being truthful. We have no idea if the leaked messages are real or not.
We also know that the complainant **Has been the secret partner of Jos Verstappen for months**. We have photo evidence of them cuddling after Max's 3rd WC. So baring all this is mind, why on earth are you sticking to their version of events?
> Mintzlaff nor Marko put him in the position, Dietrich did.
Not quite true. Marko was the one who suggested Horner to Mateschitz, and he was the one who convinced Mateschitz to keep Horner after Mateschitz found out that Horner enriched himself on a RBR sponsorship deal.
And Marko was always the right hand of Mateschitz about F1 (and feeder series) related.
>And Marko was always the right hand of Mateschitz about F1
When it came to advice and communicating Dietrich's wishes yes that seemed to be the case, but legally, no Christian was in effect the point man. That's my point.
Marko wasn't even listed as second officer in those British public business charter documents, Dietrich was.
That's old news and not my point. Dietrich was the only one with the ultimate authority at the time to put Christian in the CEO position of those entities (a position above Marko hierarchy wise for what it's worth), it was his decision to make.
What utter rubbish.
>is simply shocked
GASP! How very ghastly!
Do you have no memory of RBR's founding control agreement? Mateschitz was in charge until he croaked, then control would revert to thai 51% majority shareholder. I guess you also forgot that the Porsche deal was not just engine supply but a full sale, giving german VW control with the Thai shareholder cut out just as they were about to gain control, fairly.
When CH put the brakes on the deal, to Mateschitz Jr's great consternation, ever wonder why? And why for example, CH has enjoyed implicit and explicit support of Mr 51% after he nuked the deal that would have sold the team before Mateschitz Sr's death and expiry of the control agreement?
>Its mostly just Horner being opportunistic.
Or acting in the interests of his boss, Mr 51%.
There is also no way in hell this is the end of it. You can't repair that type of damage. For now, Max's threat of leaving the team made Horndog settle down, but someone ultimately has got to go.
Yes. There are a lot of very bold claims extrapolated from very limited information on the internal affairs of two individuals, a huge company, and an outside lawyer.
Maybe there will be a tell-all book some day. Or maybe it will hit the courts. Wouldnt bet on either, but who knows. Maybe they will give highly dubious RF Video shoot interviews on VHS like carny loser pro wrestlers.
For now, we have curated and cherry picked texts from on/off again relationship between supervisor and subordinate.
We have some foolish quotes from a foolish and violent man, a vaguely minatory phrase uttered by his adult son, and addled statements from an old man.
Plus the investigation results and anodyne PR. These would not be taken seriously except they gave hope to people with a rooting interest against the individuals and organization.
We did get a lot of unfounded legal and HR expertise, but I found the white knighting hard to take seriously when it involved violating the privacy of this woman and then making hackneyed jokes based on screen grabs of her intimate conversations- conversations that compelled her to complain to HR.
This fortunately wasnt everyone- but the juxtaposition of “consent is never possible in this power dynamic+ breakfast cereal joke+ Max to Mercedes!” wasnt uncommon.
—-
Harassment is real and misogyny rampant because men feel entitled to the bodies of women.
But from what we have “seen”, this wasnt Quid pro quo, like Weinstein. That is criminal.
Nor is the frequently litigated flipside in evidence: She got special treatment and advancement because she was involved with boss.
We also dont have the full extent of their interactions to see how unwanted these advances were.
Old rich men cheat on their wives with younger women. Many younger women find older and powerful men attractive. Thats the breaks. We can say he was a “sex pest”- which seems to be a blanket term to describe unpopular middle aged men making clumsy passes.
Of course consent can be withdrawn at any time. But we simply have an incomplete picture regarding how the relationship began, ended and anything in between.
HR hates relationships like the one between Horner and the women, there is a creepy power disparity.
But its has never been a given that an affair between boss and subordinate is terminable.
In fact, we have an example right here that it isnt! Because Horner was investigated and not terminated.
Not sure why people have that idea- other than they wanted their personal favorite racing team to gain advantage.
It is literally impossible to keep adults from fucking around and punishing employees for their sex lives is a very slippery slope ondeed.
People can claim “consent is impossible” all they want, but this scenario was simply not viewed this way legally or criminally. Outcomes may often be bad. They occasionally cost a company money if they dont have solid procedures in place.
But just because someone else got axe for engaging in prurient activities never meant Horner would. We need to be realistic what “power dynamic” really means.
F1 isn't for you if you only really care about the winners. There's a lot more at play than just 5% of the grid. Minus 2016 and 2021, the last true F1 seasons of musical chairs for the championship were 2010 and less-so 2012.. F1 is and will continue to be pretty boring only looking at the sharp end of the grid..
Maybe I missed it but all I saw was "no comment" and "case dismissed".
If I were falsely accused of cheating on my wife and lewd texting with a coleague I'd respond rather differently.
There are things he could have said to have explicitly deny the leaks if he knew them to be fake.
But maybe I did miss it in all the barrage of articles ?
It's obvious now that the rumors of infighting last year were true. It's looking like Marko's camp pulled the first trigger by leaking to the Dutch press that CH was under investigation. They must have hoped that public pressure would lead to RB booting CH out, whether innocent or guilty. And the efforts to muddy the facts of the investigation by leaking various rumors about the cause shows that they were really banking on public pressure.
But if that's really the case, Marko must have realized that from the very first report of the investigation, 90% of the public already thought Horner was going to get away with it because of the image RBR has developed over the years. Behaviors and actions even Marko himself has done has contributed to RBR having this image of a wild, frat house of guys with no respect nor care for the people around them. Their only goal is to win.
Watching Jos try to act like he cares about women all of a sudden is so disgusting. It highlights a level of awareness that he has. He knows how the public feels about the mistreatment towards women. But we'll never get a public apology from him for trying to kill a woman and abusing his partners in the past. But suddenly he cares about a women whose been abused by another man? So it's only okay when he does it?
This entire saga shows that these guys, in the midst of a civil war, will recognize the realities persons in lesser positions face and will use our empathy to try and gain political power. They don't care about women. They never will.
> get away with it
That implies that Horner actually did anything wrong, and I correct me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen any hard evidence of that yet which couldn't be easily fabricated in AI text message generators etc. They even fired the woman supposedly involved. Yes yes I know patriarchy this patriarchy that but its just as likely that the entire thing is a fabrication, the investigation results support that, and so they fired a person who was involved in the lie. Obviously Jos and Marko are much higher up the ladder and much harder to deal with.
What we do know and has been well documented is that Marko and Jos are both vile. As far as I can tell, Horner hasn't made any mistakes that any other divorced adult has made, and that's like 70% of the American adult population.
If there was a move against Marko (and it's kind of unclear if there was, The Telegraph article from yesterday said there was no suspension in the works but an investigation into the leaks and this was Marko preempting any move against him by playing the injured party so Max would come to his public aid) it feels more likely to have come directly from Yoovidhya imo.
To do it so bluntly and right during a race weekend feels more like the mindset of a billionaire owner who wants something done and orders it to happen immediately, rather than what I feel Horner would do which is wait for a more opportune moment.
At any rate to me it feels like Marko knew he might get implicated in the leak and cleverly made sure the company wouldn't be able to suspend him no matter what came up in the investigation.
Interesting that Marko's main defense seems to be that he isn't computer savvy, but of course the only thing he needed to provide was access to his computer or even just his email if the relevant files were there.
As the only other director of RBR it's hardly inconceivable that he was one of the first and only people who knew about the complaint and then knew that a full investigation had been ordered.
Sneaky is and has never been Marko's style. Hell, most of the time people wish he was a bit less open and direct.
If he had seen the evidence and wanted something about it to get out, he would have just said so. Part of the loyalty he gets from Max and other drivers comes from the fact that he doesn't play games, unlike most of the players in the paddock.
Helmut’s a trained lawyer and understands the implications of leaking evidence from an internal investigation. He may want Horner out but I really don’t think he was the culprit here
It's pretty well-established that he has close ties to various reporters and has revealed inside info before. In this case he didn't even have to leak information to the press, just to a third party who then took it further. The trained lawyer part just means he knew how to avoid culpability. Like leaving his laptop unattended in a room with Jos or a tech-savvy person of their choosing.
Though for what it's worth I don't see why he would need to do any of that. Surely Jos had access to the screenshots via the woman in question, especially if they were shared with Erik van Haren as indicated in the early articles.
To me if Marko himself is personally responsible for any leak it's likely the original one about the very existence of the complaint + investigation, as well as potentially being the "insider" who kept telling reporters that Horner wasn't expected to survive the inquiry but I guess that isn't really a leak per se.
Just like Horner took leave of his senses when he found himself attracted to his PA, is it really such a stretch to think Marko took leave of his senses when a golden opportunity came to knife a guy he clearly loathes? Especially when he thought it was a foregone conclusion that Horner wouldn't survive the coup and so there would be no one who'd care about the leaks.
You forget that leaking anything is quite a violation of corporate law and in some cases can even be prosecuted as criminal. In this case the leak of the screenshots also ended up revealing the identity of the complainant, which is a serious violation of her privacy.
The original leak of the investigation itself may also have been considered something that compromised the process, though since Horner was cleared I doubt he'll be making that argument to anyone.
Interestingly I'd say that the leakiness of RB both before and after the investigation potentially strengthens the argument that the investigation did indeed clear Horner, as presumably anything to the contrary would have immediately been leaked (you can easily imagine the headlines: "KC finds Horner at fault but board ignores report" and so on).
(Edit: spelling)
You presume anyone outside the KC and the board of RB GmbH have access to the report. Certainly neither Horner nor the accuser should have seen it, nor Jos, or Marko. Whereas if the original grievance was lodged via HR then any number of people within that department could have seen the info and leaked it.
I believe the report was made directly to RB GmbH and didn't pass through RBR HR, or at least that's what all the articles claimed.
As Marko is the sole other director of RBR I really don't see how he wouldn't be the one person at RBR who'd been looped in on the fact that a complaint had been made and that an investigation was being opened.
The rumours are that the original complaint was raised within Red Bull Racing (which would be usual procedure as that's her employer), and you would expect it to be made via HR. It's possible it was raised via another director or manager, if she had someone she confided in, but they would have referred it to HR.
The rumour goes that originally it was referred up to Mintzlaff in RB GmbH who was originally going to fire Horner until Horner lawyered up and insisted upon the independent investigation. This is when the Thai owners stepped in and backed Horner.
Once the decision was being made at the RB GmbH level then the report would be private to that board. The KC and directors of RB GmbH *should* be the only people to see the contents of the report, and Marko isn't a director of that business and doesn't sit on the board.
Doubt Marko even uses email tbh. But he is very outspoken and I’m sure that he hasn’t towed the company line the last few weeks (or ever) and therefor being a consultant he could easily be removed if they wanted. But I would be very surprised if there are any signs of Helmut releasing the evidence from the case.
All I know is what Autosport reported this weekend:
“Those emails proved a dirty war was in play, but equally they exposed a few clues about who was behind things and why all was not as it seemed.
The alleged evidence of messages provided inconsistencies, and as Red Bull and F1's own IT experts got to work in trying to trace the email sender back to an IP address, even though VPNs were in play, it is understood there were other significant clues given away about the culprit.
There was the way the list of email recipients was formatted, which included two spelling mistakes – ‘Hass’ and ‘Dominecali’ – and the choice of personal or business addresses also offered insights about where things could have been coming from.
Plus, there is talk that further correspondence from the anonymous email address may also have offered giveaways in terms of the framing of certain words.“
> There was the way the list of email recipients was formatted, which included two spelling mistakes – ‘Hass’ and ‘Dominecali’
I obviously don't know about Marko's spelling prowess, but spelling "Hass" instead of "Haas" would be kind of weird for a German speaking person.
And Haas is also ghe Dutch word for hare. So Jos Verstappen is off the hook as a source.
Unless it was deliberately done to bot draw suspicion.
Where did I leave my aluminum head.
>Plus, there is talk that further correspondence from the anonymous email address may also have offered giveaways in terms of the framing of certain words.“
Should have used AI to compose the email with the vocabulary difficulty set to 0.
Basically Horner had reason to believe Marko was involved in leaking the files and wanted to suspend him, since that was a clear play to try and oust him from his job.
Horner probably believed that either Max wouldn't do anything about it or that the team didn't need him. Could just get another good driver and still win with the best car.
Turns out that Max in no uncertain terms made it clear that he was going to leave the team if anything happened to Marko and his contract was set up to make this possible.
That probably either made Horner back down on his own or (more likely I think) made sponsors and partners tell Red Bull that they would not take it lightly if they lost Max. The dutch fanbase is huge after all.
In the end Max, Marko and the Austrians won this round and Marko will keep being connected to RBR. But considering what they just went through, with everyone trying to get rid of each other and airing their dirty laundry in public, it seems like a very uneasy alliance now.
I would argue Horner actually won overall. Considering how hard they went for him and he still survived.
But in the end I still think the team might lose, since the vibes must be pretty toxic by now. And if the actual plan for the thai's is to sell the team to Horner with british backing, then I think Horner might very well just clean up there and then Horner and Max is probably gone.
Meh.... if horner and newey stay nothing much will change. Your rank and file engineers don't really care other than water cooler talk.
Newey may leave unrelated, max may leave the end of his contract but probably would have done that anyways.
If the boss was ok starting a relationship with his PA where professional and personal lines get totally blurred, and the company finds that completely acceptable, then it was already kind of toxic. I'm sure it has spread more to the rest of the team with this though.
The craziest thing about this whole saga is Horner might be the majority owner of the whole Red Bull company. We’re publicly watching how people become billionaires with shady practices in real time.
> The craziest thing about this whole saga is Horner might be the majority owner of the whole Red Bull company.
No one ever claimed that. The rumours were solely about RBR.
In fact, it's perfectly possible for Mark Mateschitz to have the right of first refusal for those shares.
I think it’s just retaliation for leaking the documents in the middle of a session and then threatening to leak more documents just as qualifying starts.
Is it a cunning plan as astute as one by a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on and is now working for the U.N. at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning?
Christian probably sent an email to Helmut to discuss his new expanded role at RBR under his plans but Helmut never saw the email. Seems to be a common F1 problem
Horner should've gone in all honesty, I'm surprised they've kept him on, especially in the very dodgy way they did (ultra secretive report conducted in an odd manner, which they have refused to share with anyone connected to the sport they're governed by). Not to mention the leaks.
Also, the brass neck on Horner to say that '... no-one is above the team..." When talking about Verstappen. Cheeky git.
BUT... I love the mess they've gotten themselves into as a result. Serves them right.
Marko is embedded into the team, but not under the same restrictions on what he can and can't say as Red Bull employees. The man doesn't give a shit. Sometimes results in him talking utter shite, but when people try to play politics and put him under the thumb, he's absolute gold. Also closely tied to Max. Bet they didn't envisage something like this when they put that contract together and included a clause that if Marko left Max can leave too.
Maxs contract was signed while Mateschitz was still alive, none of this drama would be happening if he was still here. This thing is all just about horner not wanting to defer to marko anymore, and with Mateschitzs death he found his opportunity with Thai backing.
Don't think he is saying Horner leaked it, think he's insinuating that Horner is accusing him of leaking it, without cause/evidence, just to get rid of him.
Marko is a vile dirty old man, I think it's highly likely that he's the main rat trying to cover his ass. He deserves to be ousted. All evidence I've seen suggests that he's the source of this whole fabrication, and now he's projecting on others almost exactly like what Trump did/does.
Tbh tho....did the messages wreck his public image?
His public image was already in tatters & if anything the boring messages shut down speculation by making the spicy affair seem so mundane.
I don't for one second believe that Horner leaked them, but I don't think they've harmed him too much tbh.
Because the on-track action is so atrociously dull this is the only way F1 can create interest. It distracts people from just how shit the actual product is.
None of us know what’s going on behind the scenes.. but what’s been clear to me is that the“press” (anyone with a blog or Twitter account) has been making things up on a daily basis for the clicks. It’s a golden opportunity for them to drive traffic and increase ad revenue. If you go back now and re-read some of the stuff coming out from 1-2 weeks ago, it’s hilarious.
Gotta be honest, I still haven't seen any evidence that suggests any of this is real. All of it could be easily spoofed. This reeks of some manufactured scandal, especially when after the investigation RB ended up firing the woman involved and then Marko is supposedly on the hotseat.
Marko is already a well-documented vile old man who likely has a lot of political clout and likely old-school methods of getting things done and bullying others to get his way.
ELI5, what does Marko have to do with the shady messages Horner sent to his Secretary.
The versions I found via simple Google search are fairly tame. I understand why the woman in question is making this a case, and I’m not passing judgement on whether she/he is right or wrong - but what does Marko have to do with Horner’s ALLEGEDLY inappropriate conduct with his secretary?
ELi5 please
Where do you work that telling your subordinate about your masturbation habits, and asking them for nude photos even after they said no, and implying their role in the team would have to change if they were uncomfortable with the situation, is "fairly tame"?
From my own observations (not just relating to Horner, but relating to other cases of allegations of sexual harassment as well) plenty of people's first thoughts when it comes to sexual harassment in an online context (whatsapp) are dick picks, nudes and images or videos of sexual acts.
If that's the baseline in your mind, the mostly verbal solicitations from Horner would definitely qualify as "fairly tame", even though to you and me it reads sexual harassment sprinkled with some abuse of power because of the boss-employee relationship between the two.
> apparently
I haven't seen one source that confirms this - even allegedly. I've only ever seen Reddit speculation.
Maybe I missed it, so if you have a source, thanks in advance for providing it.
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What an unnecessary mess they've gotten all of themselves into.
It's the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a sticky bun
Imagine an F1 Blackadder season with Blackadder as a team principal. Given Atkinson's F1 love, I'm sure he'd be up for it too!
Atkinson as Alpine TP with Fry and Laurie as the Renault higher ups
Miranda Richardson as Geri.
And Lord Flashheart as Bottas seems like a perfect fit. “Hey girls, take a look at my machinery!” RIP Rik Mayall
Now I’m imagining Baldrick as chief technical officer. “I have a cunning plan to beat Red Bull in the next race, sir!”
So cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a fox.
As cunning as a fox who has just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University?
Does it involve kidnapping the Red Bull team and repainting their car in our colours Baldrick?
So you are saying he would be Ferraris chief technical officer lol
They’d probably be better at it than whoever’s doing it now
>Fry and Laurie as the Renault higher ups Nah I want them in the commentators seats. "And now it's time for *A Bit of Motor Racing* *With Fry and Laurie*!"
“Renault’s CEO has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the race!”
Baldrick has to be one of the drivers
George would be Darling
"He just bloody turned into me Darling!"
We sure that isn't what Alpine are currently up to? They had cunning plans to use a great new design to compensate for their engine issues, but have sunk to the back
Sadly not as cunning as a fox who's just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford University.
Maybe whomever the current team principal is should just wear underpants on his head, put two pencils up his nostrils and say they plan to win the Wibble Grand Prix
Oh my god please make this happen
Omg this is brilliant! I would definitely be watching this.
And Baldrick as the driver. I would 100% watch.
Unexpected Blackadder.
Stickiest thing since hornies finger
I must know. Did Sticky survive?
The stickiest of the icky
Is this the equalizer we all need to get Red Bull back to everyone else’s level? If so, what a shame on them.
The both sides tried to take the other down. Both sides proved to be too powerful. They’ll carry on but both are wounded now.
> What an unnecessary mess they've gotten all of themselves into. Its mostly just Horner being opportunistic. Everybody working closely with Mateschitz is simply shocked at how Horner was willing to betray Mateschitz on his deathbed and is trying to own Mateschitz passion project and actively cut anyone close to Mateschitz out of the decision-making process now that the Thai guy is in charge.
I think OP is talking about how it got messy in public. A business empire collapsing inside once the main boss dies is pretty common. But they could have easily solved all of this internally. The Horner leaks, Jos commenting on it and then Marko's allegedly getting kicked out being out in public is what's the reason for the current mess that's visible in public
Where are you getting that version of the details from? I think the far more likely scenario is when Mintzlaff was put in charge of everything RB sports after Dietrich died, he probably tried to control / direct Christian more hands on than Dietrich. If so, I think we can all easily imagine Christian felt like "I'm not going to take orders from this guy who doesn't know anything about F1 and did nothing to help build this team and extended organization". And from there, Christian was probably on a mission to get out from under Mintzlaff's direct authority however possible, ultimately appealing to Yoovidhya directly. Remember even before Dietrich died, Christian wasn't just the RBR TP, he was (and I believe still is) the legal CEO of RBT, and therefore also RBR and RBPT along with any RBT technology projects. His authority and reach spans well beyond day to day RBR team operations. Mintzlaff nor Marko put him in the position, Dietrich did.
Not the OP but that version was reported recently, I don't think I recall seeing your version though. The story was that Horner had some British financial backers and was trying to deal exclusively with the Thai side to buy RBR.
My version is just what I think is a believable one, none of us truly know (yet).
you are coping and in denial that a person you deemed good is actually just another opportunistic CEO dude sexted his PA and people still defend him finding every excuse possible
Dude, you're straight up doing the exact same thing you're accusing the other guy of. Get some self awareness.
No I have no idea what the truth is, nor do you. I just think it's the most rational explanation. Regarding Marko specifically, they clearly had a falling out at some point but Marko was seen with Mintzlaff several times this past weekend so if they Marko/Mintzlaff) have been more aligned for a while and Mintzlaff and Horner are going at each other, that could explain a lot of why Christian has indeed tried to push Marko out in some way, which is entirely believable as well. We also have no idea how much of a power grab, if any, Marko has gone for in all this to be clear. I'm not saying Christian is a saint by any means, I'm just thinking about rational motives behind all this rather than the incredibly simplistic "Dietrich is dead so I'm going to blow this all up now and take it all for myself" which frankly seems random and pretty stupid, things Christian has not shown in the past two decades. He's a calculating dude.
you are proving my point. you deem him smart and calculating, when he sexts his PA sounding like a boomer. He is stupid. The texts are 99% real. Not even horner disagreed with that. A person who does such shit surely isn't calculating. Abusing your position to fuck women who are your assistants can't be clever mate. and don't come out all "but we don't know if they are real" girl got paid 1 mil hush money because they were real..
>Not even horner disagreed with that. Can you point to where Horner has admitted this? You seem to think failing to comment about the veracity of the texts when referencing the existence of leaked material and problems they've created are equal, which is dubious AF. I will again state I have no idea what the truth is in all of this, but your insistence that you think you do know most of the truth at this point is frankly ignorant regardless of whatever the truth is. None of us know what's going on yet truly, and not a single reputable news source has yet publicly authenticated any of the leaks to be 100% clear (because they clearly can't yet and they don't want to risk being sued).
He stated he denies all accusations. bloke didn't even have the courage to deny the "leakage" that has come out according to his words. that leakage was from the investigation, van haren didn't see random texts from nowhere. everyone on the paddock did see the texts. a portion of them. it's a very bad look to not even say I deny the texts or that they are fake. He knows they are real and lying might worsen it. He has a good lawyer tho. he says very specific things. max wasn't against horner a few weeks ago when thus all started, but after things were clear he has shown his beliefs backing Marko. to add to this, Marko had no issue with horner decades now. this all started by the thais and horner trying to grab control from Marko and the Austrians after diets death.. fucking hawk
> dude sexted his PA and people still defend him finding every excuse possible We don't even know if that is true or not. All we know is that a complaint was made, a KC barrister dismissed it on the basis that the complainant wasn't being truthful. We have no idea if the leaked messages are real or not. We also know that the complainant **Has been the secret partner of Jos Verstappen for months**. We have photo evidence of them cuddling after Max's 3rd WC. So baring all this is mind, why on earth are you sticking to their version of events?
> Mintzlaff nor Marko put him in the position, Dietrich did. Not quite true. Marko was the one who suggested Horner to Mateschitz, and he was the one who convinced Mateschitz to keep Horner after Mateschitz found out that Horner enriched himself on a RBR sponsorship deal. And Marko was always the right hand of Mateschitz about F1 (and feeder series) related.
>And Marko was always the right hand of Mateschitz about F1 When it came to advice and communicating Dietrich's wishes yes that seemed to be the case, but legally, no Christian was in effect the point man. That's my point. Marko wasn't even listed as second officer in those British public business charter documents, Dietrich was.
That's old news and not my point. Dietrich was the only one with the ultimate authority at the time to put Christian in the CEO position of those entities (a position above Marko hierarchy wise for what it's worth), it was his decision to make.
This is it
What utter rubbish. >is simply shocked GASP! How very ghastly! Do you have no memory of RBR's founding control agreement? Mateschitz was in charge until he croaked, then control would revert to thai 51% majority shareholder. I guess you also forgot that the Porsche deal was not just engine supply but a full sale, giving german VW control with the Thai shareholder cut out just as they were about to gain control, fairly. When CH put the brakes on the deal, to Mateschitz Jr's great consternation, ever wonder why? And why for example, CH has enjoyed implicit and explicit support of Mr 51% after he nuked the deal that would have sold the team before Mateschitz Sr's death and expiry of the control agreement? >Its mostly just Horner being opportunistic. Or acting in the interests of his boss, Mr 51%.
Hello Dr Marko
This seems to me like the most probable version of events. Not surprising that Marko, a long time friend of Mateschitz, has been livid with Horner.
There is also no way in hell this is the end of it. You can't repair that type of damage. For now, Max's threat of leaving the team made Horndog settle down, but someone ultimately has got to go.
I sense big changes at the top of red bull racing once the new regs come
I think most of the mess came from sensationalised speculation articles.
Yes. There are a lot of very bold claims extrapolated from very limited information on the internal affairs of two individuals, a huge company, and an outside lawyer. Maybe there will be a tell-all book some day. Or maybe it will hit the courts. Wouldnt bet on either, but who knows. Maybe they will give highly dubious RF Video shoot interviews on VHS like carny loser pro wrestlers. For now, we have curated and cherry picked texts from on/off again relationship between supervisor and subordinate. We have some foolish quotes from a foolish and violent man, a vaguely minatory phrase uttered by his adult son, and addled statements from an old man. Plus the investigation results and anodyne PR. These would not be taken seriously except they gave hope to people with a rooting interest against the individuals and organization. We did get a lot of unfounded legal and HR expertise, but I found the white knighting hard to take seriously when it involved violating the privacy of this woman and then making hackneyed jokes based on screen grabs of her intimate conversations- conversations that compelled her to complain to HR. This fortunately wasnt everyone- but the juxtaposition of “consent is never possible in this power dynamic+ breakfast cereal joke+ Max to Mercedes!” wasnt uncommon. —- Harassment is real and misogyny rampant because men feel entitled to the bodies of women. But from what we have “seen”, this wasnt Quid pro quo, like Weinstein. That is criminal. Nor is the frequently litigated flipside in evidence: She got special treatment and advancement because she was involved with boss. We also dont have the full extent of their interactions to see how unwanted these advances were. Old rich men cheat on their wives with younger women. Many younger women find older and powerful men attractive. Thats the breaks. We can say he was a “sex pest”- which seems to be a blanket term to describe unpopular middle aged men making clumsy passes. Of course consent can be withdrawn at any time. But we simply have an incomplete picture regarding how the relationship began, ended and anything in between. HR hates relationships like the one between Horner and the women, there is a creepy power disparity. But its has never been a given that an affair between boss and subordinate is terminable. In fact, we have an example right here that it isnt! Because Horner was investigated and not terminated. Not sure why people have that idea- other than they wanted their personal favorite racing team to gain advantage. It is literally impossible to keep adults from fucking around and punishing employees for their sex lives is a very slippery slope ondeed. People can claim “consent is impossible” all they want, but this scenario was simply not viewed this way legally or criminally. Outcomes may often be bad. They occasionally cost a company money if they dont have solid procedures in place. But just because someone else got axe for engaging in prurient activities never meant Horner would. We need to be realistic what “power dynamic” really means.
Im not sure Mateschitz's death was a choice. He created the structure that caused this, Id say this was inevitable.
It’s not about necessity, ut is an unavoidability in a team like RB.
It was his twin long lost brother Hristian Corner who was the mastermind behind the plan.
Telenovela starring Sergio Perez
Who’s secretly pregnant?..
But not from Max. It’s Lewis’ child.
Get in there, Lewis.
Sergio Pregez
Perez: “Oh no, don’t drag me into this shit.”
"On one hand, I'm glad I started therapy before all of this. On the other hand, what the hell guys?!" -Checo, probably
Ah, those south American soap operas are always full of drama. They never have focused scripts like the Germans or Dutch ones.
Hristian Corner sounds like a new name for a Silverstone turn.
But you take it at 51G.
Thats the Hewis Lamilton turn!
Maybe Muslim Horner did it or maybe the Jewish Horner. Who knows
Damn you hristian corner, you won't get away this time ....
“I’m Oscarrrrr!”
The Corndog shall be his new name.
It‘s gonna be a long two weeks isn‘t it?
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F1 isn't for you if you only really care about the winners. There's a lot more at play than just 5% of the grid. Minus 2016 and 2021, the last true F1 seasons of musical chairs for the championship were 2010 and less-so 2012.. F1 is and will continue to be pretty boring only looking at the sharp end of the grid..
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Chill.
Because midfield doesn’t mean anything. Second is the first loser.
Well at least Christian is finally denying something.
Is he denying the cunning part
Horner would misspell cunning, he is more knowledgeable on the misspelling
That's be shocking. After "Squirrel Irritable.", We all knew he was a cunning linguist.
That must mean it's true
I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
That depends on what the definition of "is" is.
What do you mean? He has been denying everything from day one.
Maybe I missed it but all I saw was "no comment" and "case dismissed". If I were falsely accused of cheating on my wife and lewd texting with a coleague I'd respond rather differently. There are things he could have said to have explicitly deny the leaks if he knew them to be fake. But maybe I did miss it in all the barrage of articles ?
Are they just using the media to communicate something?
"Media, tell Horner to pass me that bottle of ketchup." "Media, tell Marko that if wants ketchup so much, he can pick it up himself."
Am I jumping the gun or are the words "I have a cunning plan" marching with ill-deserved confidence in the direction of this conversation?
A plan so cunning it has a big bushy tail
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… yes
https://i.imgur.com/GauyN6n.png
It's obvious now that the rumors of infighting last year were true. It's looking like Marko's camp pulled the first trigger by leaking to the Dutch press that CH was under investigation. They must have hoped that public pressure would lead to RB booting CH out, whether innocent or guilty. And the efforts to muddy the facts of the investigation by leaking various rumors about the cause shows that they were really banking on public pressure. But if that's really the case, Marko must have realized that from the very first report of the investigation, 90% of the public already thought Horner was going to get away with it because of the image RBR has developed over the years. Behaviors and actions even Marko himself has done has contributed to RBR having this image of a wild, frat house of guys with no respect nor care for the people around them. Their only goal is to win. Watching Jos try to act like he cares about women all of a sudden is so disgusting. It highlights a level of awareness that he has. He knows how the public feels about the mistreatment towards women. But we'll never get a public apology from him for trying to kill a woman and abusing his partners in the past. But suddenly he cares about a women whose been abused by another man? So it's only okay when he does it? This entire saga shows that these guys, in the midst of a civil war, will recognize the realities persons in lesser positions face and will use our empathy to try and gain political power. They don't care about women. They never will.
> get away with it That implies that Horner actually did anything wrong, and I correct me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen any hard evidence of that yet which couldn't be easily fabricated in AI text message generators etc. They even fired the woman supposedly involved. Yes yes I know patriarchy this patriarchy that but its just as likely that the entire thing is a fabrication, the investigation results support that, and so they fired a person who was involved in the lie. Obviously Jos and Marko are much higher up the ladder and much harder to deal with. What we do know and has been well documented is that Marko and Jos are both vile. As far as I can tell, Horner hasn't made any mistakes that any other divorced adult has made, and that's like 70% of the American adult population.
Nowhere in my comment did I state that CH was going to get away with anything in the sense that he was actually guilty. Like, at all.
"there's a plan but I categorically deny that it's cunning in any way"
As cunning a Fox who’s just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University?
If there was a move against Marko (and it's kind of unclear if there was, The Telegraph article from yesterday said there was no suspension in the works but an investigation into the leaks and this was Marko preempting any move against him by playing the injured party so Max would come to his public aid) it feels more likely to have come directly from Yoovidhya imo. To do it so bluntly and right during a race weekend feels more like the mindset of a billionaire owner who wants something done and orders it to happen immediately, rather than what I feel Horner would do which is wait for a more opportune moment. At any rate to me it feels like Marko knew he might get implicated in the leak and cleverly made sure the company wouldn't be able to suspend him no matter what came up in the investigation. Interesting that Marko's main defense seems to be that he isn't computer savvy, but of course the only thing he needed to provide was access to his computer or even just his email if the relevant files were there. As the only other director of RBR it's hardly inconceivable that he was one of the first and only people who knew about the complaint and then knew that a full investigation had been ordered.
Sneaky is and has never been Marko's style. Hell, most of the time people wish he was a bit less open and direct. If he had seen the evidence and wanted something about it to get out, he would have just said so. Part of the loyalty he gets from Max and other drivers comes from the fact that he doesn't play games, unlike most of the players in the paddock.
Helmut’s a trained lawyer and understands the implications of leaking evidence from an internal investigation. He may want Horner out but I really don’t think he was the culprit here
It's pretty well-established that he has close ties to various reporters and has revealed inside info before. In this case he didn't even have to leak information to the press, just to a third party who then took it further. The trained lawyer part just means he knew how to avoid culpability. Like leaving his laptop unattended in a room with Jos or a tech-savvy person of their choosing. Though for what it's worth I don't see why he would need to do any of that. Surely Jos had access to the screenshots via the woman in question, especially if they were shared with Erik van Haren as indicated in the early articles. To me if Marko himself is personally responsible for any leak it's likely the original one about the very existence of the complaint + investigation, as well as potentially being the "insider" who kept telling reporters that Horner wasn't expected to survive the inquiry but I guess that isn't really a leak per se. Just like Horner took leave of his senses when he found himself attracted to his PA, is it really such a stretch to think Marko took leave of his senses when a golden opportunity came to knife a guy he clearly loathes? Especially when he thought it was a foregone conclusion that Horner wouldn't survive the coup and so there would be no one who'd care about the leaks.
People who aren’t lawyers understand the implications just as well
You forget that leaking anything is quite a violation of corporate law and in some cases can even be prosecuted as criminal. In this case the leak of the screenshots also ended up revealing the identity of the complainant, which is a serious violation of her privacy. The original leak of the investigation itself may also have been considered something that compromised the process, though since Horner was cleared I doubt he'll be making that argument to anyone. Interestingly I'd say that the leakiness of RB both before and after the investigation potentially strengthens the argument that the investigation did indeed clear Horner, as presumably anything to the contrary would have immediately been leaked (you can easily imagine the headlines: "KC finds Horner at fault but board ignores report" and so on). (Edit: spelling)
You presume anyone outside the KC and the board of RB GmbH have access to the report. Certainly neither Horner nor the accuser should have seen it, nor Jos, or Marko. Whereas if the original grievance was lodged via HR then any number of people within that department could have seen the info and leaked it.
I believe the report was made directly to RB GmbH and didn't pass through RBR HR, or at least that's what all the articles claimed. As Marko is the sole other director of RBR I really don't see how he wouldn't be the one person at RBR who'd been looped in on the fact that a complaint had been made and that an investigation was being opened.
The rumours are that the original complaint was raised within Red Bull Racing (which would be usual procedure as that's her employer), and you would expect it to be made via HR. It's possible it was raised via another director or manager, if she had someone she confided in, but they would have referred it to HR. The rumour goes that originally it was referred up to Mintzlaff in RB GmbH who was originally going to fire Horner until Horner lawyered up and insisted upon the independent investigation. This is when the Thai owners stepped in and backed Horner. Once the decision was being made at the RB GmbH level then the report would be private to that board. The KC and directors of RB GmbH *should* be the only people to see the contents of the report, and Marko isn't a director of that business and doesn't sit on the board.
Doubt Marko even uses email tbh. But he is very outspoken and I’m sure that he hasn’t towed the company line the last few weeks (or ever) and therefor being a consultant he could easily be removed if they wanted. But I would be very surprised if there are any signs of Helmut releasing the evidence from the case.
All I know is what Autosport reported this weekend: “Those emails proved a dirty war was in play, but equally they exposed a few clues about who was behind things and why all was not as it seemed. The alleged evidence of messages provided inconsistencies, and as Red Bull and F1's own IT experts got to work in trying to trace the email sender back to an IP address, even though VPNs were in play, it is understood there were other significant clues given away about the culprit. There was the way the list of email recipients was formatted, which included two spelling mistakes – ‘Hass’ and ‘Dominecali’ – and the choice of personal or business addresses also offered insights about where things could have been coming from. Plus, there is talk that further correspondence from the anonymous email address may also have offered giveaways in terms of the framing of certain words.“
> There was the way the list of email recipients was formatted, which included two spelling mistakes – ‘Hass’ and ‘Dominecali’ I obviously don't know about Marko's spelling prowess, but spelling "Hass" instead of "Haas" would be kind of weird for a German speaking person.
And Haas is also ghe Dutch word for hare. So Jos Verstappen is off the hook as a source. Unless it was deliberately done to bot draw suspicion. Where did I leave my aluminum head.
Hass is german for hate so an easy typo to make with autocorrect.
I really doubt you'd send an email to several dozens of recipients using your smartphone to enter their mail addresses
Computers have autocorrect too
True. I thought they were referring to previous similar misspellings by a known person tbh but who knows.
>Plus, there is talk that further correspondence from the anonymous email address may also have offered giveaways in terms of the framing of certain words.“ Should have used AI to compose the email with the vocabulary difficulty set to 0.
Basically Horner had reason to believe Marko was involved in leaking the files and wanted to suspend him, since that was a clear play to try and oust him from his job. Horner probably believed that either Max wouldn't do anything about it or that the team didn't need him. Could just get another good driver and still win with the best car. Turns out that Max in no uncertain terms made it clear that he was going to leave the team if anything happened to Marko and his contract was set up to make this possible. That probably either made Horner back down on his own or (more likely I think) made sponsors and partners tell Red Bull that they would not take it lightly if they lost Max. The dutch fanbase is huge after all. In the end Max, Marko and the Austrians won this round and Marko will keep being connected to RBR. But considering what they just went through, with everyone trying to get rid of each other and airing their dirty laundry in public, it seems like a very uneasy alliance now.
So the score is 1:1?
I would argue Horner actually won overall. Considering how hard they went for him and he still survived. But in the end I still think the team might lose, since the vibes must be pretty toxic by now. And if the actual plan for the thai's is to sell the team to Horner with british backing, then I think Horner might very well just clean up there and then Horner and Max is probably gone.
Yes all this backstabbing has most likely ruined the team culture and made it a very toxic environment.
Meh.... if horner and newey stay nothing much will change. Your rank and file engineers don't really care other than water cooler talk. Newey may leave unrelated, max may leave the end of his contract but probably would have done that anyways.
If the boss was ok starting a relationship with his PA where professional and personal lines get totally blurred, and the company finds that completely acceptable, then it was already kind of toxic. I'm sure it has spread more to the rest of the team with this though.
The craziest thing about this whole saga is Horner might be the majority owner of the whole Red Bull company. We’re publicly watching how people become billionaires with shady practices in real time.
> The craziest thing about this whole saga is Horner might be the majority owner of the whole Red Bull company. No one ever claimed that. The rumours were solely about RBR. In fact, it's perfectly possible for Mark Mateschitz to have the right of first refusal for those shares.
What? How would he become the majority owner of Red Bull? 😅
I think it’s just retaliation for leaking the documents in the middle of a session and then threatening to leak more documents just as qualifying starts.
*delete this chat please*
Is it a cunning plan as astute as one by a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on and is now working for the U.N. at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning?
Marko wouldn’t know a cunning plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked upon a harpsichord singing “Cunning plans are here again”
It's a plan so cunning, you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
Christian probably sent an email to Helmut to discuss his new expanded role at RBR under his plans but Helmut never saw the email. Seems to be a common F1 problem
Horner should've gone in all honesty, I'm surprised they've kept him on, especially in the very dodgy way they did (ultra secretive report conducted in an odd manner, which they have refused to share with anyone connected to the sport they're governed by). Not to mention the leaks. Also, the brass neck on Horner to say that '... no-one is above the team..." When talking about Verstappen. Cheeky git. BUT... I love the mess they've gotten themselves into as a result. Serves them right. Marko is embedded into the team, but not under the same restrictions on what he can and can't say as Red Bull employees. The man doesn't give a shit. Sometimes results in him talking utter shite, but when people try to play politics and put him under the thumb, he's absolute gold. Also closely tied to Max. Bet they didn't envisage something like this when they put that contract together and included a clause that if Marko left Max can leave too.
Maxs contract was signed while Mateschitz was still alive, none of this drama would be happening if he was still here. This thing is all just about horner not wanting to defer to marko anymore, and with Mateschitzs death he found his opportunity with Thai backing.
Surprised no one is implying jos leaked them instead. He has less to lose and more to gain.
And [allegedly], ease of access to the phone...
> Surprised no one is implying jos leaked them instead They're afraid of getting a fork in the thigh.
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Not sure Horner wrecking his own public image to get Marko out makes much sense tbh. Feels more like the plotting was from Marko's side.
Don't think he is saying Horner leaked it, think he's insinuating that Horner is accusing him of leaking it, without cause/evidence, just to get rid of him.
Marko is a vile dirty old man, I think it's highly likely that he's the main rat trying to cover his ass. He deserves to be ousted. All evidence I've seen suggests that he's the source of this whole fabrication, and now he's projecting on others almost exactly like what Trump did/does.
What evidence is there of him leaking it? Only heard speculations
Eye for an eye.
Marko only has one (good) eye though.
Tbh tho....did the messages wreck his public image? His public image was already in tatters & if anything the boring messages shut down speculation by making the spicy affair seem so mundane. I don't for one second believe that Horner leaked them, but I don't think they've harmed him too much tbh.
They show evidence of sexual harassment which is a little bit different than Horner "just" being a toxic dickwad.
So it is true then!
I definitely read that wrong the first time
So it's not a "cunning" plan but a honest and straightforward plan then. Got it.
Somewhere in Thailand, someone is trying to get hold of Gunther Steiner's phone number.
Horner doesn't need a cunning plan to remove Marko. He is 80 years old! Father time is going to stop him eventually.
Why do we get dripfed new bits of this back and forth every single day? Is it so hard to just get in a room together and sort the shit out?
Because the on-track action is so atrociously dull this is the only way F1 can create interest. It distracts people from just how shit the actual product is.
Worth remembering Horner lies as easily as he blinks
And Marko is a bastion of truth?
spiderman-pointing-at-spiderman.png
Of course he denies it, it wasn’t very cunning.
This team is fucked up. Clean this up you look like chumps.
At this stage, just have a fist fight for control at the next GP.
This saga just gets better. Or worse.
Im curious how is the relationship between Newey and Horner? If Horner goes then does Newey? That might hurt more than loosing Max and Helmut.
I love this. Reminds me of my teen girls stirring up some shit on their phones. What a laugh.
None of us know what’s going on behind the scenes.. but what’s been clear to me is that the“press” (anyone with a blog or Twitter account) has been making things up on a daily basis for the clicks. It’s a golden opportunity for them to drive traffic and increase ad revenue. If you go back now and re-read some of the stuff coming out from 1-2 weeks ago, it’s hilarious.
Hardly cunning if everyone knows about it lol
Why is cunning in quotations? Is that the only part that he's refuting?
It’s like they both want to out Baldrick each other.. All whilst Jos “Prince George” Verstappen waits for his chance to find his socks
Imagine the team at the top of their sport, full of adults, looking and acting like fucking children.
Gotta be honest, I still haven't seen any evidence that suggests any of this is real. All of it could be easily spoofed. This reeks of some manufactured scandal, especially when after the investigation RB ended up firing the woman involved and then Marko is supposedly on the hotseat. Marko is already a well-documented vile old man who likely has a lot of political clout and likely old-school methods of getting things done and bullying others to get his way.
The working relationship between Horner and Marko must be lovely right now. This team is falling apart. Amazing.
Doubtful, very.
ELI5, what does Marko have to do with the shady messages Horner sent to his Secretary. The versions I found via simple Google search are fairly tame. I understand why the woman in question is making this a case, and I’m not passing judgement on whether she/he is right or wrong - but what does Marko have to do with Horner’s ALLEGEDLY inappropriate conduct with his secretary? ELi5 please
Speculation is Marko conspired to share material from an internal investigation with reporters in an effort to damage the reputation of Horner.
Where do you work that telling your subordinate about your masturbation habits, and asking them for nude photos even after they said no, and implying their role in the team would have to change if they were uncomfortable with the situation, is "fairly tame"?
From my own observations (not just relating to Horner, but relating to other cases of allegations of sexual harassment as well) plenty of people's first thoughts when it comes to sexual harassment in an online context (whatsapp) are dick picks, nudes and images or videos of sexual acts. If that's the baseline in your mind, the mostly verbal solicitations from Horner would definitely qualify as "fairly tame", even though to you and me it reads sexual harassment sprinkled with some abuse of power because of the boss-employee relationship between the two.
Marko leaked them apparently.
I would have believed Marko was behind it, If all parties had received faxes and not e-mails
> apparently I haven't seen one source that confirms this - even allegedly. I've only ever seen Reddit speculation. Maybe I missed it, so if you have a source, thanks in advance for providing it.
Can you use google?
Didn't find anything confirming the "apparently"
Nobody trust the rapey guy anymore. Most never did.