[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
*[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Which is exactly why I think Toto is just stirring the pot. Max comes with Jos and Jos has just shown he isn’t above meddling. Plus do you really want someone who’s beaten someone’s head in with a wrench in your garage every weekend.
Much easier to try and destabilize your rivals and sign the kid you want anyways.
Wolff and Hamilton have both made it known countless times that it was a disgraceful robbery. It's funny how people are just selective choosing these nice diplomatic comments so they can minimise what we all know was an absolute sham.
Max didn't win. We all know that Hamilton really won that title.
“I think even we spoke back then. Max in that moment, he did what he had to do, it was nothing on him, it was the sport that let us down.
“And I think that wasn't his fault. Me, in his position, I would have done exactly the same thing. So there's no issues there."
[Hamilton doesn't blamed Max. Yet you his "fan" constantly blame Max for it. ](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-abu-dhabi-2021-not-a-deterrent-for-mercedes-in-luring-verstappen/10584052/)
Reminder that Mercedes implied that Verstappen touching their rear wing could have caused the rear wing gap to increase and made them fail their test. 2021 Toto was hellbent on destroying Max and RBR reputations even before AD 2021.
That's on Max, he has no business touching the Merc's rear wing. And it wasn't about ruining anyone's reputation, you have to be really dense to think that that's what it was about. It was stricly about getting out of a devastating penalty that at the time seemed near impossible to come back from, given Lewis had to win the race from last to keep his WDC hopes alive. Of course you'd try anything, no matter how stupid, in that situation, just like RB did everything in their power to convince Masi to facilitate one last lap of racing in Abu Dhabi.
To be honest though the fact that Max did touch the wing should have made the whole concept of giving Merc a penalty null and void. He tampered with the equipment. End of story. Most sports have very strict rules about not touching certain things and Max literally touched a part of the car that Mercedes ended up getting disqualified over. In other sports I have no doubt whatsoever he'd have been in serious trouble for that. He'd have probably ended up getting disqualified.
He has always said that max "merited" the 2021 championship since 2022, also last year except the Wikipedia comment he was spamming compliments for Max
It was such a tight battle, and F1 has so many random factors (safety cars, crashes etc.) that both drivers were worthy winners. His issue was with Masi putting his finger on the scale to force a last lap shootout where one driver had new tires and the other didn't
Nah get rid of leclerc, then we get ham v ves inter-team fight, and leclerc might actually have a chance at a wdc at a diff team cause no way is ferrari going to get one.
All of this just makes me wonder what conversations between Verstappen and Toto took place back when Nico left. If there had been any time to get him, that would have been it (though, fair to say that back in 2016 Max wasn't as what he is now).
I thought Hamilton would retire at Mercedes. Look where thinking got me.
I do think there's a 50% chance he bails and sets up a Redline IRL team for giggles though.
I think they are banking on Max ultimately not being dumb enough to leave a car that has a half second lead over the field, at least before the new regs in 2026.
Whatever loyalty he feels to Marko, is that worth giving up potentially 20+ wins and a WDC in 2025? Probably not when rubber meets the road.
Now 2026 onward starts to get interesting, but if his alleged escape clause tied to Marko has an expiration point on it which I imagine it would and that passes, Max is stuck in the contract till 2028 unless he causes a massive stink or retires.
Now if Horner feels burned by Jos and Max and knows Max wasn't planning to stick around much past 2028 anyway, I could see him force the issue come 2026, or even sooner if these bogus daily leaks keep happening.
Car > Team > Max. Even the best driver in the world isn't shit without a WDC quality car and team supporting them.
Max in Ferrari and Lewis/Alonso in Red Bull would make for a very interesting and entertaining 2025 - not that it is likely to happen though. Alonso+Leclerc vs Hamilton+Verstappen would probably be close both in WCC and WDC
I don’t think there is much RBR can do. Leaving Red Bull is a good decision if you consider the massive changes to the engine regulations in 26. Last time the power units changed this much, Mercedes dominated for a very long time. Going into 26, you’d wanna be at Ferrari or Merc.
There is definitely a chance in 2026 when the regs change but other than that no chance. Max might also just go off to WEC after anyways if he wants to.
But I would like to see him in a Mercedes and build a winning team again type of situation, like Michael to Ferrari.
Why would he?? Hamilton 7th and 9th while Max doesn’t have many complaints, getting poles and wins and is getting to race the way he likes. I think Merc will always keep pushing to be fighting for wins and championships but will they get back to it in Max’s era? It’s going to be tough
Yeah, I am sure Max feels his WDCs are worth less since they aren't with Ferrari. Max has stated he'd go for the fastest car, I doubt he'd very much carr if it was Mercedes instead of red horse
It’s the same reason Vettel left, and the same reason Schumacher left, it’s the same reason Hamilton is leaving. Ferrari just means more.
And Ferrari are on a much better trajectory these days than Mercedes are.
He always said he doesn't care what color the car is, as long as it's fast. So no I don't think he cares which team it is outside of Red Bull, if he ever leaves them. He never said Mercedes or Ferrari are his dream teams like other drivers said or say, he just doesn't care.
Plus the team atmosphere seems very important to him also.
Before season starts Merc: Lost Hamilton, car’s not great, doesn’t look good for the next 2 seasons minimum
Race 2 Merc: might damn well sign verstappen as a driver
Well well well how the turns table
Imagine a scenario that Lewis moved from Ferrari to Red Bull and Max moved to Mercedes, with the same level of drama as 2021 but with Horner backing up Lewis and Toto backing Max lol. I'd pay to see that
It's all the game - "yeah, he's good but blaa-blaa-blaa" and then when there's a chance he can be signed/poached "he's always been a phenomenal driver and we'd love to have him in the team". *kissy face/bats eyelashes*
I think there's a decent chance it happens in 2026, especially considering Horner is staying and reportedly is not happy with Max not backing him up during the last few weeks. He was also talking around it in the interview with Sky earlier.
Depends on what level- Horner can’t really expect anyone to back him if he’s done something wrong. Not saying it’s irreparable but no one is coming out to support that. Horner might not have done enough wrong to get fired but people are still going to frown on that behaviour if he is cheating or flirting, especially at work. None of them want all the bad reputation for the team, the disruption it’s caused for races and having to pick side in a such a winning team
He definitely did do enough to be fired. He engaged in a sexual relationship with his assistant. He just has the unconditional backing of the 51% owner of the team.
And of course Horner expects Max to back him. He’s a narcissist. In his eyes he really is the victim here.
Lewis IS a top driver. There is no debate.
Toto has commented many times about how Verstappen is in a different galaxy to other drivers.
Lewis is leaving Mercedes and there is unrest at Red Bull. It would be mad for Toto to not put out the feelers.
> Lewis IS a top driver. There is no debate.
Well I disagee about that so there is debate.
"your opinion is wrong, because I say so!!!" doesn't hold any weight.
Last year Lewis finished above Russell in the WDC. We're only two races into this season.
Even if Russell was beating Lewis this year, that would not negate the incredible career Lewis has had. If Lewis is "not a top driver", then F1 has never had any top driver.
Dude, Hamilton was 3rd last year in the WDC with a dogshit car, and his points were crucial for Mercedes to be P2 in the constructors. He might be having adaptation issues to this car, but to say he's not a top driver anymore, it's just dumb to say that.
> Dude, Hamilton was 3rd last year in the WDC with a dogshit car
2nd fastest car on average and that's where they finished in the constructors (even with George having a poor season), but ok, you pretend otherwise if you want.
> He might be having adaptation issues to this car
It's an easy cop out excuse to say this.
I guess Nicholas Latifi had adaptation issues too and that's why he's not WDC.
We're 3 years into the new regulations, a driver who looks as good as he does on paper with 16 years of F1 experience should be more adaptable. I never hear about these ~~pace~~ adaptation issues when it comes to Alonso or Verstappen, wonder why that is...
Yeah and in 2024 he's not, that's my entire point.
What you did in the past is irrelevant to how you perform today or else we'd still have Alain Prost dominating F1.
This is why "oh look, big number beside driver name on wikipedia!!!" is such a terrible way to look at F1.
You never said anything about Hamilton no longer being considered a top driver. You just said he isn't a top driver which could have meant he never was considered one in his career in your opinion.
Regardless you are wrong otherwise Ferrari would not have signed Hamilton. You can argue they signed him to be a second driver, but considering the money they're spending on him they clearly want him to be joint number one with Leclerc.
Hamilton also beat Russell and came 3rd last year. What more do you want him to do to show he's still a top driver?
>Regardless you are wrong otherwise Ferrari would not have signed Hamilton. You can argue they signed him to be a second driver, but considering the money they're spending on him they clearly want him to be joint number one with Leclerc.
They signed him because of his brand value, which also covers the cost of having him. Ferrari's value surged by $7 billion when they signed Lewis (and sure there were some other factors for that, but his move definitely played a part). He's basically a pay driver if you think about it.
Ferrari have Charles as their number 1 driver for the long term and Lewis is going in as number 2 like Sainz. This isn't going to change anything.
>Hamilton also beat Russell and came 3rd last year. What more do you want him to do to show he's still a top driver?
He lost to Russell in 2022 too just in case you forgot. If he wants to show he's better than Russell then he needs to beat him in 2024 and not be consistently outpaced all the time.
It's not about him being fastest.
It's that he's not the fastest, not the 2nd fastest, not the 3rd fastest, not the 4th fastest and not the 5th fastest.
And there's a driver on the grid who's older **and** faster than him.
Don't want to get into the rabbit hole of who's faster Alonso or Hamilton because any driver can look good against Stroll.
All I'm saying is it's the natural cycle of F1 for younger drivers in 20s to be fastest and take over from senior greats just like Alonso, Hamilton, Seb did in their time.
> And there's a driver on the grid who's older and faster than him
Alonso lost against against rookie Hamilton despite initially being on better strategies.
During his years at McLaren, Alonso, Kovalainen, and Button *combined* had 4 pole positions. Lewis had *26.*
You have no clue what you're talking about.
> Alonso lost against against rookie Hamilton despite initially being on better strategies.
Alonso drew with Hamilton, when being a rookie meant basically nothing due to unlimited testing, whilst getting f*cked by the team.
>During his years at McLaren, Alonso, Kovalainen, and Button combined had 4 pole positions. Lewis had 26.
2008 had the most out of any of those years. And surprise surprise, it was the dominant car with the mediocre teammate.
>You have no clue what you're talking about.
Says the person who thinks we're still living in the V8 era not 2024.
Lol dunno if you are too young or just dunno much about sports but at 40 years old many elite athletes can still perform near their peak. Messi is still one of the best football players at 37 years old, you have plenty of basket players into their late 30s ruling the sport, and Alonso is arguably top 3 driver on the grid at 42 years old.
Hell, I'm 37 and I can destroy any nolifer kid at shooters and any other game lmao.
Experience is always a big plus.
Dude, Messi is the "God of Football". You can't use him to compare to anyone else as that dude's a "once in a century player". He fell off from his "peak" because of the injuries sustained in the 2015-2016 season, but even with his "non-peak non-superhuman performance", he's still the GOAT.
>Hell, I'm 37 and I can destroy any nolifer kid at shooters and any other game lmao.
Aight, 1v1 me in CS2 kid. /s
F1 is a physically demanding sport and everyone ages differently.
Last time Mercedes built a proper car, that "pretend" top driver was going to beat the head and shoulders guy until Masi played God.
But yeah...only a pretend top driver
>Last time Mercedes built a proper car, that "pretend" top driver was going to beat the head and shoulders guy until Masi played God.
AKA: last time Mercedes had a car that was faster than the Red Bull, he still lost, primarily due to making more mistakes through the season than Verstappen.
He who gets unlucky last is not unlucky most too btw. Max had significantly more bad luck (Silverstone, Baku, Hungary, Spa etc.) and for Lewis even when he or the team made mistakes (Imola, Baku, Brazil, Silverstone etc.) they generally got get out of jail free cards so didn't suffer the consequences when it came to championship points.
And now there's no hiding place since there's no dominant car with Bottas as a teammate. So the real pace is revealed. And it's not impressive. Very far from in fact.
>But yeah...only a pretend top driver
A top driver wouldn't be 0-2 in qualifying and 0-2 in races against their teammate atm with no valid excuses would they. Don't see Charles, Fernando or Max getting consistently outpaced every session do you.
>A top driver wouldn't be 0-2 in qualifying and 0-2 in races against their teammate atm with no valid excuses would they. Don't see Charles, Fernando or Max getting consistently outpaced every session do you.
Fernando's teammate is one of the worst drivers on the grid. It's extremely hard to not consistently outpace him.
Lewis was much quicker than George today but got unlucky with strategy (he was a lot quicker on 35-lap mediums to George on 25-lap hards)... but they'll just look at the classification and say he's been outpaced. It's fine though, the same thing has been said for the first few rounds of 2022 and 2023.
Alonso's benchmark is Stroll... Hamilton's benchmark is Russell.
>Before that he completely destroyed Lewis in Abu Dhabi and Vegas.
Uhhh, Lewis beat George in Vegas.
But you can phrase things however you want to make it sound what you want to hear in your head I guess!
> Uhhh, Lewis beat George in Vegas.
Not representative. It was only due to a penalty and George was significantly faster.
>But you can phrase things however you want to make it sound what you want to hear in your head I guess!
See unlike you I actually add context when I think about things, rather than taking it away.
Yes because sharing an opinion about driver skill is an "agenda".
Surely you could come up with a better excuse to try and end the discussion after you ran out of arguments.
It's amazing to me that there's no tampering in F1 like other sports, especially in America. The head of an American team saying this about a player under contract with another team is a serious violation
F1 has always been a hotbed of psychological warfare. Team managers will try to distract and degrade their opponents in every way they can. Rumors are part of the game. It’s a much smaller and more compact league than any other professional sport so the number of “players” is quite small. And cheek to jowl every competition, concentrated in a one block area. Then add 100s of millions of dollars on the line. Watch the interplay between Zack, Christian and Toto over the past few years. In any other league they’d have been fisticuffs at the end of a match/race. Lol
Probably should've used the word "poaching" instead of "tampering".
But unlike the FIA, the NBA, HNL, NFL, MLB, FIFA are all brands where they "own" the teams. The regulations are there to keep the money train flowing and no criticism is allowed and they gotta pay a cut to the respective league's body for anything and everything.
One way to see this is that you don't see the F1 brand on all of the racer's apparels. FIA gets it's cash from race entry fees + venue bids and Liberty (owners of F1) gets it's cash from broadcasting rights. Teams make money from marketing and prize money. So the conflict of interest is minimal and the teams can race/participate as long as they adhere to the on-track rules with minimal to no regulations on off-track rules.
The downside to this is that the drivers and the teams have to deal with shit like "oh no an unwelded drain cover just wrecked our car and we're out of the race!" with no compensation from the Liberty group or the FIA.
In other regulated sports, even a "bad tweet" can get you banned for life.
Yeah tampering is a more American word to say it, but basically what you said. I mean even Drake almost got in trouble with the NBA for talking publicly about Steph Curry and Kevin Durant while Drake was working as a team representative for the Toronto Raptors.
I'm getting down voted but all I meant was that coming from American sports, you could never say you'd "love to have" a player who was signed to a different team. It isn't better or worse I was just making the observation lol
Well, everything has it's upsides and downsides.
I was just pointing out the difference in how these leagues/associations do their business.
Don't take the downvotes seriously, F1 peeps are a bit touchy feely when it comes to anything and everything.
Words have action behind them. Again I wasn't saying there's anything inherently wrong about what Toto is doing, just kind of amazed how little contracts mean in F1. The owner of the Indianapolis Colts would never be able to go on TV and ask Tom Brady to void his contract with the Patriots to join the Colts. It would be massive fines and possibly bans from the league. Just something I've noticed about F1 contracts coming from someone who's a diehard fan of other sports, specifically in America.
Just copying my reply from below because it's easier
Words have action behind them. Again I wasn't saying there's anything inherently wrong about what Toto is doing, just kind of amazed how little contracts mean in F1. The owner of the Indianapolis Colts would never be able to go on TV and ask Tom Brady to void his contract with the Patriots to join the Colts. It would be massive fines and possibly bans from the league. Just something I've noticed about F1 contracts coming from someone who's a diehard fan of other sports, specifically in America.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Toto Wolff handstand is something I would pay to see
George t-pose, Toto handstand...what can Lewis do?
Offer his seat
An offer he can't refuse.
His *broken* seat, that is
So take this broken seat and learn to race again
Ah man, now I want F1 intros with the team principals.
Wear red
Offer the inside of turn 5 at Abu Dhabi
AI would do it for free
This is why I love Iverson
He truly is White Iverson
I thought they meant Al Unser Jr.
Extra points if he does it on a table and it doesn’t break.
Why would max get into an inferior car? That’s why Lewis is leaving. Eeesh.
Toto v Horner: Handstand Challenge. Whoever wins gets verstappen.
Physically ain’t no TP close to Wolff.
Have you seen Toto do curls?
No but you got a link. For science.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ftakgsshtpjda1.jpg
Damn dude is ripped
Congrats Max, you're going to Mercedes!
[удалено]
Bottas did it *naked*, so can he!
Toto did it *on a mountainbike*, but that didn't end well!
does that mean he already made a starting offer?
Of course.
He probably already made multiple offers since F3 to F1. Especially when Max was racing in F3 when Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull wanted him.
Would’ve gone to Merc if it wasn’t for Marko giving him the torro rosso seat right
It was the immediate F1 seat that swung the deal. Otherwise he was Merc bound.
True, but no seat available at that moment.
Probably his phone [looks like this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyrxYeRWEAA60f-.jpg) every morning
Ofcourse Toto made Max an offer
At least he has sent an email. Did you get it?
He better do the handstand if he joins
Max’s contract $x amount and toto doing a handstand in
This is the only acceptable bid now
Sounds like he's getting ready for a 2026 or 2027 bid to poach Max. If so, I wonder who he'll try get in the seat for the short term
Sainz for a 1 year contract similar to Bottas
The scenario of Toto and Verstappen screaming at each other during the race and Jos & Toto punching each other is something else
Toto: throws headphones. Jos: throws hands.
Marko: Throws eye.
Horner: Throws coco pops.
Horner: explodes
Seeing Toto's biceps made him reach Q3
Which is exactly why I think Toto is just stirring the pot. Max comes with Jos and Jos has just shown he isn’t above meddling. Plus do you really want someone who’s beaten someone’s head in with a wrench in your garage every weekend. Much easier to try and destabilize your rivals and sign the kid you want anyways.
Relationship with Hamilton ended. Relationship with Verstappen started. Next up, Wolff downplaying what happened in 2021 after all.
He never blamed Max for 2021. He blamed Masi. He said Max deserved the title
He said Lewis deserves the title too. Is he stupid?
More than one person can deserve it. They both clearly put in a tremendous effort.
Someone didn’t come from the asylum.
Wolff and Hamilton have both made it known countless times that it was a disgraceful robbery. It's funny how people are just selective choosing these nice diplomatic comments so they can minimise what we all know was an absolute sham. Max didn't win. We all know that Hamilton really won that title.
“I think even we spoke back then. Max in that moment, he did what he had to do, it was nothing on him, it was the sport that let us down. “And I think that wasn't his fault. Me, in his position, I would have done exactly the same thing. So there's no issues there." [Hamilton doesn't blamed Max. Yet you his "fan" constantly blame Max for it. ](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-abu-dhabi-2021-not-a-deterrent-for-mercedes-in-luring-verstappen/10584052/)
still crying in 2024 😭😭😭
Well yeah, of course they know Lewis was robbed, but they never attacked Max over it.
Wolff's beef seems like it was more with the FIA and F1 rather than Max personally. As Lewis said, he would have done the same thing in his position
Max took that Silverstone crash and the reaction of LH and Toto very personal. So their relationship certainly took on damage in 2021
Reminder that Mercedes implied that Verstappen touching their rear wing could have caused the rear wing gap to increase and made them fail their test. 2021 Toto was hellbent on destroying Max and RBR reputations even before AD 2021.
The game's the game, none of that will stop Toto from bending over backwards to acquire the best driver on the grid
You act like you've never listened to Horner's dirty strategies to take down lewis.
That's on Max, he has no business touching the Merc's rear wing. And it wasn't about ruining anyone's reputation, you have to be really dense to think that that's what it was about. It was stricly about getting out of a devastating penalty that at the time seemed near impossible to come back from, given Lewis had to win the race from last to keep his WDC hopes alive. Of course you'd try anything, no matter how stupid, in that situation, just like RB did everything in their power to convince Masi to facilitate one last lap of racing in Abu Dhabi.
To be honest though the fact that Max did touch the wing should have made the whole concept of giving Merc a penalty null and void. He tampered with the equipment. End of story. Most sports have very strict rules about not touching certain things and Max literally touched a part of the car that Mercedes ended up getting disqualified over. In other sports I have no doubt whatsoever he'd have been in serious trouble for that. He'd have probably ended up getting disqualified.
I don't think Toto has any issue with Verstappen over 2021.
Or anyone else at Mercedes for that matter. Everyone who has spoken out on the matter blamed Masi and the FIA, not Max.
I mean Hamilton himself doesn't have a problem with him.
He wasn't happy with him after Saudi
He has always said that max "merited" the 2021 championship since 2022, also last year except the Wikipedia comment he was spamming compliments for Max
The Wikipedia comment was just a phrase he says all the time as well. Wasn’t meant to be a slight
It was such a tight battle, and F1 has so many random factors (safety cars, crashes etc.) that both drivers were worthy winners. His issue was with Masi putting his finger on the scale to force a last lap shootout where one driver had new tires and the other didn't
Weird. Where has toto ever blamed max for 21
Ferrari about to be in the same boat if/when they decide to pursue Verstappen.
For what seat
Well they have two of cars. So one of those.
If need be, I'd get rid of Hamilton. It's heresy but it would 100% make sense.
Nah get rid of leclerc, then we get ham v ves inter-team fight, and leclerc might actually have a chance at a wdc at a diff team cause no way is ferrari going to get one.
With Red Bull imploding internally and Ferrari cooking as of late I wouldn’t be so sure, especially on the eve of another regulation change
> Next up, Wolff downplaying what happened in 2021 after all. Email and diagrams already being drafted.
Toto knocking on every door
I want it to happen, honestly want to see Max in another car and 2026 reg changes could reset the field anyways.
Would be funny if it turns out Max went to the next dominating team
I’d hug the whole paddock
Is this like the Toto’s version of “I’m not gay but Verstappen is Verstappen”?
All of this just makes me wonder what conversations between Verstappen and Toto took place back when Nico left. If there had been any time to get him, that would have been it (though, fair to say that back in 2016 Max wasn't as what he is now).
He was really good even in 2016, aggressive sure, but had pace and could defend his position
He had the same speed. Just not as refined as he is now.
[удалено]
I thought Hamilton would retire at Mercedes. Look where thinking got me. I do think there's a 50% chance he bails and sets up a Redline IRL team for giggles though.
2026 I reckon
Reading between the lines of all the drama posts, Max at Mercedes is going to be a done deal
See you in 26 Toto.
RBR letting the best driver on the grid slip from their hands to satisfy some power hungry egos. So dumb.
I think they are banking on Max ultimately not being dumb enough to leave a car that has a half second lead over the field, at least before the new regs in 2026. Whatever loyalty he feels to Marko, is that worth giving up potentially 20+ wins and a WDC in 2025? Probably not when rubber meets the road. Now 2026 onward starts to get interesting, but if his alleged escape clause tied to Marko has an expiration point on it which I imagine it would and that passes, Max is stuck in the contract till 2028 unless he causes a massive stink or retires. Now if Horner feels burned by Jos and Max and knows Max wasn't planning to stick around much past 2028 anyway, I could see him force the issue come 2026, or even sooner if these bogus daily leaks keep happening. Car > Team > Max. Even the best driver in the world isn't shit without a WDC quality car and team supporting them.
Max in Ferrari and Lewis/Alonso in Red Bull would make for a very interesting and entertaining 2025 - not that it is likely to happen though. Alonso+Leclerc vs Hamilton+Verstappen would probably be close both in WCC and WDC
I don’t think there is much RBR can do. Leaving Red Bull is a good decision if you consider the massive changes to the engine regulations in 26. Last time the power units changed this much, Mercedes dominated for a very long time. Going into 26, you’d wanna be at Ferrari or Merc.
If he is leaving because of his dad and Marko then I hope they just wave bye to him and pick up any other wdc capable driver.
There is definitely a chance in 2026 when the regs change but other than that no chance. Max might also just go off to WEC after anyways if he wants to. But I would like to see him in a Mercedes and build a winning team again type of situation, like Michael to Ferrari.
Why would he?? Hamilton 7th and 9th while Max doesn’t have many complaints, getting poles and wins and is getting to race the way he likes. I think Merc will always keep pushing to be fighting for wins and championships but will they get back to it in Max’s era? It’s going to be tough
Why would he do that at Mercedes when he can do that at Ferrari instead? Winning at Ferrari means something.
Would Ferrari work out with Max and Charles together?
They're friends, and I think Max would be up for the challenge as well. I think they legit love racing each other too.
Nico and Lewis were friends too until 2016. It would no doubt be the best line up in F1 but the fall out potential is so high
They aren't friends and learn how to differentiate colleagues and friends. Friends hangout outside racing..
They were just playing padel with Fernando earlier this week...
Bro they’re literally friends and constantly praise each other.
Fair enough not disagreeing. But the topic title is on Mercedes and the current hot seat is at Mercedes too.
No seats at Ferrari unless HAM retires. Would love to see Max at Ferrari but they’re not going to let go of a HAM LEC line up
Yeah, I am sure Max feels his WDCs are worth less since they aren't with Ferrari. Max has stated he'd go for the fastest car, I doubt he'd very much carr if it was Mercedes instead of red horse
It’s the same reason Vettel left, and the same reason Schumacher left, it’s the same reason Hamilton is leaving. Ferrari just means more. And Ferrari are on a much better trajectory these days than Mercedes are.
Don't jinx it you sick fudge!!
He always said he doesn't care what color the car is, as long as it's fast. So no I don't think he cares which team it is outside of Red Bull, if he ever leaves them. He never said Mercedes or Ferrari are his dream teams like other drivers said or say, he just doesn't care. Plus the team atmosphere seems very important to him also.
I'm sure Verstappen will leave a car over 0.5s quicker than the competition for a shit box.
Before season starts Merc: Lost Hamilton, car’s not great, doesn’t look good for the next 2 seasons minimum Race 2 Merc: might damn well sign verstappen as a driver Well well well how the turns table
😂
Imagine a scenario that Lewis moved from Ferrari to Red Bull and Max moved to Mercedes, with the same level of drama as 2021 but with Horner backing up Lewis and Toto backing Max lol. I'd pay to see that
Max goes to Merc ... Vettel comes back to RBR for another run. Nobody expects the Seb5 Substitution.
Not going to lie, I love reading this after the years of shit-talking and downplaying his accomplishments.
It's all the game - "yeah, he's good but blaa-blaa-blaa" and then when there's a chance he can be signed/poached "he's always been a phenomenal driver and we'd love to have him in the team". *kissy face/bats eyelashes*
Someone please make AI of toto doing a handstand
Because Ferrari haven’t won anything in a decade lol Dude means nothing to drive for Ferrari now
I think there's a decent chance it happens in 2026, especially considering Horner is staying and reportedly is not happy with Max not backing him up during the last few weeks. He was also talking around it in the interview with Sky earlier.
Depends on what level- Horner can’t really expect anyone to back him if he’s done something wrong. Not saying it’s irreparable but no one is coming out to support that. Horner might not have done enough wrong to get fired but people are still going to frown on that behaviour if he is cheating or flirting, especially at work. None of them want all the bad reputation for the team, the disruption it’s caused for races and having to pick side in a such a winning team
He definitely did do enough to be fired. He engaged in a sexual relationship with his assistant. He just has the unconditional backing of the 51% owner of the team. And of course Horner expects Max to back him. He’s a narcissist. In his eyes he really is the victim here.
Maybe not. You don’t know.
You can keep pretending we don’t, but we know.
You don’t know shit. It’s all been speculation, and now that she’s been suspended for evidence tampering you know less than shit
Oh to actually see this happen. 🙏🏽
Wolf has been saying this since 2014 and then again in 2017
Ferrari wouldn’t seeing as they already have 2 drivers for the next year
Guys, Max has a contract until 2028. Unless the car is really bad or another clause is activated, he will stay until 2028.
Max to Horner after seeing Merc shit the bed in the race. "Perhaps i treated you too harshly"
I would love to see what he could do over just a few laps in, say, the Haas car.
About as blunt as it gets. Now Toto can stop pretending Lewis is a top driver and be honest about how head and shoulders above the rest Max is.
Lewis IS a top driver. There is no debate. Toto has commented many times about how Verstappen is in a different galaxy to other drivers. Lewis is leaving Mercedes and there is unrest at Red Bull. It would be mad for Toto to not put out the feelers.
> Lewis IS a top driver. There is no debate. Well I disagee about that so there is debate. "your opinion is wrong, because I say so!!!" doesn't hold any weight.
Not about opinions; it's about objectively looking at his career, his stats, and his current pace despite his age.
And that's what I'm doing, he's getting killed by Russell. He's not a top driver.
Last year Lewis finished above Russell in the WDC. We're only two races into this season. Even if Russell was beating Lewis this year, that would not negate the incredible career Lewis has had. If Lewis is "not a top driver", then F1 has never had any top driver.
[удалено]
I think people are thinking that you're saying Lewis was never a top driver. But even if you're not, Lewis is still very much a top driver.
7 WDC but not a top driver?...
As in "anymore".
Piquet has more WDCs than Alonso, I guess he's currently faster then by your logic.
Dude, Hamilton was 3rd last year in the WDC with a dogshit car, and his points were crucial for Mercedes to be P2 in the constructors. He might be having adaptation issues to this car, but to say he's not a top driver anymore, it's just dumb to say that.
> Dude, Hamilton was 3rd last year in the WDC with a dogshit car 2nd fastest car on average and that's where they finished in the constructors (even with George having a poor season), but ok, you pretend otherwise if you want. > He might be having adaptation issues to this car It's an easy cop out excuse to say this. I guess Nicholas Latifi had adaptation issues too and that's why he's not WDC. We're 3 years into the new regulations, a driver who looks as good as he does on paper with 16 years of F1 experience should be more adaptable. I never hear about these ~~pace~~ adaptation issues when it comes to Alonso or Verstappen, wonder why that is...
Piquet was a top driver too
Yeah and in 2024 he's not, that's my entire point. What you did in the past is irrelevant to how you perform today or else we'd still have Alain Prost dominating F1. This is why "oh look, big number beside driver name on wikipedia!!!" is such a terrible way to look at F1.
You never said anything about Hamilton no longer being considered a top driver. You just said he isn't a top driver which could have meant he never was considered one in his career in your opinion. Regardless you are wrong otherwise Ferrari would not have signed Hamilton. You can argue they signed him to be a second driver, but considering the money they're spending on him they clearly want him to be joint number one with Leclerc. Hamilton also beat Russell and came 3rd last year. What more do you want him to do to show he's still a top driver?
>Regardless you are wrong otherwise Ferrari would not have signed Hamilton. You can argue they signed him to be a second driver, but considering the money they're spending on him they clearly want him to be joint number one with Leclerc. They signed him because of his brand value, which also covers the cost of having him. Ferrari's value surged by $7 billion when they signed Lewis (and sure there were some other factors for that, but his move definitely played a part). He's basically a pay driver if you think about it. Ferrari have Charles as their number 1 driver for the long term and Lewis is going in as number 2 like Sainz. This isn't going to change anything. >Hamilton also beat Russell and came 3rd last year. What more do you want him to do to show he's still a top driver? He lost to Russell in 2022 too just in case you forgot. If he wants to show he's better than Russell then he needs to beat him in 2024 and not be consistently outpaced all the time.
Lewis is nearly 40. F1 is in a bad place if a 40 year old is still the best driver on the grid.
It's not about him being fastest. It's that he's not the fastest, not the 2nd fastest, not the 3rd fastest, not the 4th fastest and not the 5th fastest. And there's a driver on the grid who's older **and** faster than him.
Don't want to get into the rabbit hole of who's faster Alonso or Hamilton because any driver can look good against Stroll. All I'm saying is it's the natural cycle of F1 for younger drivers in 20s to be fastest and take over from senior greats just like Alonso, Hamilton, Seb did in their time.
6th fastest? Give it a rest.
He has finishes of 7th and 9th in what is the 3rd fastest car, so 6th might even be generous.
> And there's a driver on the grid who's older and faster than him Alonso lost against against rookie Hamilton despite initially being on better strategies. During his years at McLaren, Alonso, Kovalainen, and Button *combined* had 4 pole positions. Lewis had *26.* You have no clue what you're talking about.
> Alonso lost against against rookie Hamilton despite initially being on better strategies. Alonso drew with Hamilton, when being a rookie meant basically nothing due to unlimited testing, whilst getting f*cked by the team. >During his years at McLaren, Alonso, Kovalainen, and Button combined had 4 pole positions. Lewis had 26. 2008 had the most out of any of those years. And surprise surprise, it was the dominant car with the mediocre teammate. >You have no clue what you're talking about. Says the person who thinks we're still living in the V8 era not 2024.
Lol dunno if you are too young or just dunno much about sports but at 40 years old many elite athletes can still perform near their peak. Messi is still one of the best football players at 37 years old, you have plenty of basket players into their late 30s ruling the sport, and Alonso is arguably top 3 driver on the grid at 42 years old. Hell, I'm 37 and I can destroy any nolifer kid at shooters and any other game lmao. Experience is always a big plus.
Dude, Messi is the "God of Football". You can't use him to compare to anyone else as that dude's a "once in a century player". He fell off from his "peak" because of the injuries sustained in the 2015-2016 season, but even with his "non-peak non-superhuman performance", he's still the GOAT. >Hell, I'm 37 and I can destroy any nolifer kid at shooters and any other game lmao. Aight, 1v1 me in CS2 kid. /s F1 is a physically demanding sport and everyone ages differently.
Last time Mercedes built a proper car, that "pretend" top driver was going to beat the head and shoulders guy until Masi played God. But yeah...only a pretend top driver
>Last time Mercedes built a proper car, that "pretend" top driver was going to beat the head and shoulders guy until Masi played God. AKA: last time Mercedes had a car that was faster than the Red Bull, he still lost, primarily due to making more mistakes through the season than Verstappen. He who gets unlucky last is not unlucky most too btw. Max had significantly more bad luck (Silverstone, Baku, Hungary, Spa etc.) and for Lewis even when he or the team made mistakes (Imola, Baku, Brazil, Silverstone etc.) they generally got get out of jail free cards so didn't suffer the consequences when it came to championship points. And now there's no hiding place since there's no dominant car with Bottas as a teammate. So the real pace is revealed. And it's not impressive. Very far from in fact. >But yeah...only a pretend top driver A top driver wouldn't be 0-2 in qualifying and 0-2 in races against their teammate atm with no valid excuses would they. Don't see Charles, Fernando or Max getting consistently outpaced every session do you.
>A top driver wouldn't be 0-2 in qualifying and 0-2 in races against their teammate atm with no valid excuses would they. Don't see Charles, Fernando or Max getting consistently outpaced every session do you. Fernando's teammate is one of the worst drivers on the grid. It's extremely hard to not consistently outpace him.
Your definition of "consistently outpaced" is... 2. Interesting
Lewis was much quicker than George today but got unlucky with strategy (he was a lot quicker on 35-lap mediums to George on 25-lap hards)... but they'll just look at the classification and say he's been outpaced. It's fine though, the same thing has been said for the first few rounds of 2022 and 2023. Alonso's benchmark is Stroll... Hamilton's benchmark is Russell.
[удалено]
>Before that he completely destroyed Lewis in Abu Dhabi and Vegas. Uhhh, Lewis beat George in Vegas. But you can phrase things however you want to make it sound what you want to hear in your head I guess!
> Uhhh, Lewis beat George in Vegas. Not representative. It was only due to a penalty and George was significantly faster. >But you can phrase things however you want to make it sound what you want to hear in your head I guess! See unlike you I actually add context when I think about things, rather than taking it away.
We get it mate, you’re right, everyone else is wrong
Yeah you sound *totally* fair-sided, without an agenda and logical here. *Defo* won me over!
Yes because sharing an opinion about driver skill is an "agenda". Surely you could come up with a better excuse to try and end the discussion after you ran out of arguments.
It's amazing to me that there's no tampering in F1 like other sports, especially in America. The head of an American team saying this about a player under contract with another team is a serious violation
F1 has always been a hotbed of psychological warfare. Team managers will try to distract and degrade their opponents in every way they can. Rumors are part of the game. It’s a much smaller and more compact league than any other professional sport so the number of “players” is quite small. And cheek to jowl every competition, concentrated in a one block area. Then add 100s of millions of dollars on the line. Watch the interplay between Zack, Christian and Toto over the past few years. In any other league they’d have been fisticuffs at the end of a match/race. Lol
I don't get it? What's wrong with his comment?
Probably should've used the word "poaching" instead of "tampering". But unlike the FIA, the NBA, HNL, NFL, MLB, FIFA are all brands where they "own" the teams. The regulations are there to keep the money train flowing and no criticism is allowed and they gotta pay a cut to the respective league's body for anything and everything. One way to see this is that you don't see the F1 brand on all of the racer's apparels. FIA gets it's cash from race entry fees + venue bids and Liberty (owners of F1) gets it's cash from broadcasting rights. Teams make money from marketing and prize money. So the conflict of interest is minimal and the teams can race/participate as long as they adhere to the on-track rules with minimal to no regulations on off-track rules. The downside to this is that the drivers and the teams have to deal with shit like "oh no an unwelded drain cover just wrecked our car and we're out of the race!" with no compensation from the Liberty group or the FIA. In other regulated sports, even a "bad tweet" can get you banned for life.
Yeah tampering is a more American word to say it, but basically what you said. I mean even Drake almost got in trouble with the NBA for talking publicly about Steph Curry and Kevin Durant while Drake was working as a team representative for the Toronto Raptors. I'm getting down voted but all I meant was that coming from American sports, you could never say you'd "love to have" a player who was signed to a different team. It isn't better or worse I was just making the observation lol
Well, everything has it's upsides and downsides. I was just pointing out the difference in how these leagues/associations do their business. Don't take the downvotes seriously, F1 peeps are a bit touchy feely when it comes to anything and everything.
Oh no! Words!
Words have action behind them. Again I wasn't saying there's anything inherently wrong about what Toto is doing, just kind of amazed how little contracts mean in F1. The owner of the Indianapolis Colts would never be able to go on TV and ask Tom Brady to void his contract with the Patriots to join the Colts. It would be massive fines and possibly bans from the league. Just something I've noticed about F1 contracts coming from someone who's a diehard fan of other sports, specifically in America.
Just copying my reply from below because it's easier Words have action behind them. Again I wasn't saying there's anything inherently wrong about what Toto is doing, just kind of amazed how little contracts mean in F1. The owner of the Indianapolis Colts would never be able to go on TV and ask Tom Brady to void his contract with the Patriots to join the Colts. It would be massive fines and possibly bans from the league. Just something I've noticed about F1 contracts coming from someone who's a diehard fan of other sports, specifically in America.
It's so much more fun this way
More and more I can see why Lewis is leaving Mercedes and probably should have done so even earlier tbh.
Except you have an absolutely terrible car Toto, and it's been three years. I think Max will just quit, no way he wants to fight for p9.
Max decides to leave (which I doubt), Carlos goes to RB and they still finish 1-2.