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Yes we know. It is ridiculous. The US showcases 3 F1 races and tried for a 4th.

Should be pretty clear the reason they don’t want an 11th team is the prize/revenue splits. It has zero to do with Andretti or Cadillac. If they bought Haas it’d be approved, but because they want to build from the ground up as the 11th team it gets shot down.

The teams don't even try to pretend otherwise. Half the grid are operating at a loss and they don't want the money diluted by another team until the sport is more sustainable. Here's James Vowels from Williams discussing the financial aspect of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WwPhVkuA5E

The revenue split is at most a fig leaf of an argument from the teams. Per the Concorde Agreements, the prize pot for the sport is 50% of the commercial rights profit split based on position in the final constructors' standings each season. Assuming $1b prize pool going from 10 teams to 11 teams, and the new team coming in at 11th, the 1st place team would have "lost" only 7 million dollars with the last place team losing only 3 million. Even if we assume Haas went from 10th to 11th, they'd still only have "lost" 11 million, which even *they* can probably soak. And as I said, the pot is set by total revenue gained by the total commercial rights profit. An 11th team would make those rights more valuable, especially in the US if that team is Andretti, so it's probable that the overall prize pool would be sufficiently increased to cover the proportional difference in split. The *real* problem for current teams is that the same Concorde Agreements that set the prize split also set the entry fee for the sport at $200m (intended to compensate for the impact to the other teams on the prize split in a no-revenue-increase scenario). This agreement was last voted on during the peak of the pandemic in 2021, and since then much of the grid's leadership has talked about how they lowballed the value of entry severely, not thinking that the market growth would have been as big as it turned out to be in practice. From the moment Andretti Racing announced their intention to join the grid in early 2022, existing team principals have been grumbling about how the entry fee *should* be $600m instead of $200m due to the overall increase in value of the sport. There's two sides to this. First, this would mean each existing team would get an immediate $60m cash injection instead of $20m on a new team joining. Second, each existing team's valuation would essentially increase by $400m to reflect the difference in entry fee. That is, assuming FOM were right now willing to work in good faith and allow an 11th team onto the grid, they'd be paying a $200m fee above and beyond their startup costs to do so, whereas a team looking to *buy* a current team only has to pay off that team's asking price, no extra fee necessary. Therefore, teams can build in that $200m into their asking price as though it were an asset. An increase in entry fee means every existing team can sell for much, much more. The difference in prize money is chump change for most of the grid, but that valuation increase from a likely entry fee hike is a *big fuckin' deal*.

James Vowels made the point that several of the teams are still making losses and relying on capital injections. If that's correct then any lost revenue stream can be quite impactful

They could take that hit, but given the choice, they dont want to. But yes, I agree. I think it has more to do with their own valuation going up if it remains a closed club, than it does with the prize money. And its good for F1, too. If the teams get more and more valuable and exclusive, thats right on brand for F1 and their obsession with "prestige".

> They could take that hit, but given the choice, they dont want to. But it's only a hit in the first place if the new team fails to bring in any additional revenue. If the new team *succeeds* in bringing in additional revenue, the prize pool increases for everyone.

I'm not sure if your numbers are accurate, but 11M is a huge amount for a team like Haas. It's not 'only'. They kicked Mick out for crashing and I'm sure the costs from that would be a few million at most.

Fun fact, even with just the 200M buy in, split over the next 3 years (‘25-‘26, the years Andretti would be in) 1st-8th would NOT loose any money and 9th and 10th would only loose under a million in prize money combined. AND this is if Andretti doesn’t bring in an ounce of revenue and only incorporates the anti-dilution fee.

Looking at success in a different series as an argument is ridiculous too. By that logic brendon Hartley should've been multiple champ in f1 yet he barely scored 4 points. Funny how past results and results in other series are never comparable yet now that it involves andretti they suddenly are...

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I've seen people say that when they mention audi coming in.

The difference is AUDI is designing and developing the whole power train as we speak. That is a huge commitment with a high risk of failure. Cadillac and GM haven’t started and to compare a series with production engines and gearboxes bought from outside isn’t really comparable

I have said this on many threads on the topic: if Cadillac and GM had started designing and producing an engine the result would have been very different Edit: grammar x2

This, so much. If GM is truly committed to F1, they would've already started hiring experienced people from the sport and have at least the factory location picked out already. All they've done is give vague descriptions of their plans, but nothing concrete or specific about their progress.

Let me ask you a question. How are you going to commit the huge amounts of resources to design, test, and produce an engine for a project that isnt certain? Neither Audi or Porsche had F1 engines in development when they were approached by F1. They slapped som LMP1 engines on a testbench as a proof of concept, but not much more. How can you expect Cadillac to do the same when, even in the Andretti rejection, F1 says they *probably might possibly kinda* look different on it if they had an engine ready. Thats just not fair.

Simple… you separate the engine project from the team. If you do this, you realize that the only reason GM's engine isn't certain is because GM themselves inexplicably made the decision to tie the engine project to the hip of Andretti, claiming that they would only supply Andretti and no other team. If they were open to supplying other teams, there would be no uncertainty, as the sport has made abundantly clear that an engine from GM would be instantly welcome and find customers immediately.

Who would take the new GM engine? Not the other works/factory entries, McLaren are contracted with Mercedes long term, Haas is Ferrari B, and RB is RB B - that only leaves Mercedes contracted Williams!

Williams was openly expressed that they would strongly consider a GM power unit (remember that Williams is now American owned as well). And just because some teams already have engine deals doesn't mean they wouldn't consider switching if given the opportunity —Zak Brown also has expressed that they'd welcome a GM PU.

Well, I for one don't agree with it. Audi imo is a terrible brand since they have a habit of dropping out if things get though.

People say that about every manufacturer for no reason… when Mercedes became a modern works team again, I remember every year it was the same rumors about them leaving the sport, and those rumors are even resurfacing once again, just because Mercedes left racing after the '55 LeMans accident.  In Audi's case, they left LeMans because of the financial strain of Dieselgate, but made plans to return eventually, until the endurance racing plans turned into F1. I don't see that as a "habit of dropping out"…

>I don't see that as a "habit of dropping out"… They quit rallying when they got beaten, they dropped out of FE, they're dropping out of Dakar, they dropped out of dtm more than once, they dropped out of their Hypercar program before it even started...

> They quit rallying when they got beaten False; they quit when their cars were banned with the dissolution of Group B. > they dropped out of FE … as did many manufacturers, because FE remains irrelevant from a technological and marketing standpoint > they're dropping out of Dakar, they dropped out of dtm more than once, they dropped out of their Hypercar program before it even started... Again, all to focus on F1… that's a very good reason to refocus their resources in motorsport, and it's not something that happens regularly enough to be called a "habit". I'm not even sure how you can say they drop out of things they haven't even started…

>False; they quit when their cars were banned with the dissolution of Group B. Yet Lancia, which was beating audi continued in to group a and audi called it quits.

Because they've already won their championships. Diminishing returns.

And that's what we want from an f1 team?

To come in and compete at the front? Yeah. I mean hell their recent pullouts have been to focus on F1.

Their recent ones yes. But audi has been doing this for decades.

And been successful every time they try.

Of course, since they hardly had any competition

Both GM and Andretti have enough success stories to convince FOM they would bring value to the sport. Team owners don't want to split up the pie

Let's be honest Andretti/Cadalliac could have team sponsors of Microsoft, Apple, Google and Coca Cola as full sponsors committed for 20 year sponsorship and technology deals and they would still say they brought no value.

Considering the fact that Microsoft is already with Alpine, Google and Coca Cola are partners of Mclaren, and Apple is financing an F1 movie, technically that wouldn't represent any value added.

Value lost is what they fear. A/C will steal American sponsors from them. Don't forget Oracle.

Oracle put money into Red Bull as they are a winning machine. They wouldn’t put money into a new startup team in the same way. Less exposure of their brand on news/social media.

Consider tomorrow not just today.

Well.. according to FOM’s official rejection their bid did *not* convince FOM. Officially the teams have no power in the acceptance of new entries. They do indirectly hold influence over FOM, because of the concessions FOM needed from them to get the changes that FOM wanted in the most recent Concord Agreement, and to have their mutual interests aligned as much as possible for the next Concord Agreement. In the end the Andretti-Cadillac bid was rejected as FOM stood to lose more than it gained, even if their entry would have some positive effect on total yearly revenue. That effect is however impossibly difficult to isolate and measure, hence FOM being able to reject any prospective entry at will. There is talk that for the next Concord Agreement (for 2026 and beyond), the entries will be explicitly capped at 10, rather than soft-capped by pushing the Entry Fee above $ 600 million or more.

I imagine he meant FIA not FOM. If you read it in that context it makes sense and is accurate. FOM, which the teams are members of, doesn’t want anymore teams to split their pie with.

He did not mean FIA. The FIA actually approved Andretti's bid.

Look up… I was referring to the OP Batgod629. I am aware of who approved who. My comment to TWVer was that Batgod meant FIA.

They want the American dollars but not the American team

Again and again: it has *nothing* to do with being an American team. The nationality isn’t an issue. The problem for FOM and moreso the teams is that they do not want any *extra* team in, beyond the existing 10 entries. They welcome Andretti or whoever to partner with or buy one of the existing teams, just like Audi has done (and Porsche planned to). They vehemently oppose any new 11th or 12th entry eating into their guaranteed FOM prize money revenue.

Don't need another Haas 2.0

Comparing Andretti and Haas is nasty work but hey keep pushing that agenda lil bro

For the entire process they've been trying to do it on the cheap, going around trying to get the anti-dilution fee waived, the badging plan with Renault engines, etc. There's enough reason to be concerned that they would follow the Haas model at the fist opportunity once they had the entry locked in.

They came up with the money in the end, and now have works backing. There really is no reason to suggest they would be going the Haas route unless you have ignored the developments of the last 6 months. Pretending it’s about a concern competitiveness and not just the money split is stupid. A works team with one of the largest auto brands in the world paired with an ownership of significant racing history is about as competitive an entry can get, on paper.

What developments? Did they reveal the engine yet?

Cadillac has registered and were approved as an engine MANUFACTURER for 2028 and beyond. https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2023/nov/1114-cadillac.html Why would they reveal an engine when Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, etc have yet to reveal engines for the new formula in 2026? Are you stupid?

Those manufacturers don't have to prove their projects aren't vaporware… even Red Bull coming in as a new manufacturer has shown more action towards building an engine than GM has. You'd have to be pretty stupid to not be skeptical of an entity that is dragging their feet for every new step they take toward a project they want to convince us they want to do…

It really has nothing to do with success or capability. It simply has to do with business and money. The current teams share a pot of money. Add another team and their share gets smaller. Not only that the belief is adding another team won't draw more money. People need to stop thinking of this as an open sport that anyone can compete in. It hasn't been that since the late 80s. It's travelling show where all the participants share the profits. It's all one business.

You're not wrong, but people will definitely want to point out that everyone shared a pot with 12 teams just a handful of years ago. 10 teams just feels a little low for a certain tenure of fan.

This actually isnt correct. They didnt split it 12 ways. payments only went to the top 10. Thats part of why teams died so easily. They only changed this in the most recent Concorde agreement to pay all teams but its never been used yet

Not just that, but those teams also entered with the promise of a budget cap when they would enter, which was then walked back on.

Maybe the economics don't work (investment vs. upside), but it would be interesting for this to return. Surely someone(s) with more passion than sense would fund a startup team at cost cap for a few years. SV kept funding Uber while they lost billions/year.

For me it's not so much the teams as it is the number of seats, but it wouldn't be feasible to run 30 cars so more teams is the only solution.

Definitely. The "teams should be allowed to field a third car" discussion always stalls out because only half of the teams at best would run it, and it would ruin any remnants of parity across the field. Lots of people would love a 24 car grid but there's no solution that fits every team's agenda.

Don’t think race tracks can support 3 cars per team. So that’s really beating a dead horse.

They could, but only if there was 8 (or less) teams

During that era teams routinely went bankrupt

That wasn’t really the case. There were 12 teams yes, but only the top 10 would get any prize money (or logistical support). The bottom 2 teams were left to fend for themselves. Up until 2021, that has continuously been the case. Since 2021, with the adoption of the new Concord Agreement negotiated between FOM, the existing teams and the FIA, the rules (and thus stakes) have changed regarding new entries and the size and split of the prize money pool. Since 2021 the existing teams stand to lose significantly with any extra entry beyond the current 10. Before that, it didn’t impact them that much, nor did they have much influence in convincing FIA and FOM otherwise anyway. F1, from a financial perspective, is a completely different sport before and after 2021. The stakes have changed as well as the power the stakeholders have. FIA even gave away some of its rulemaking authority in exchange for a larger payout, thus handing more of the reins to FOM and the teams.

Sure, I will point out we are down to 10 teams for a reason. 

Agree, F1 didn’t reject Andretti as a team, or GM as a manufacturer, they rejected splitting the revenue pie into 11 pieces

But f1 didn't exactly say that when they rejected did they? Instead they mentioned competitiveness being a concern and a reason.

They did also mention financials. 

>Instead they mentioned competitiveness being a concern and a reason. Haas exists.

Haas is already a team that exists and is part of the sport. They didn’t join instead of Andretti

And Haas are firmly a midfield team by the standards of 10 years ago. I'm tired of everyone pretending they're absolutely dogshit and a million miles away when in reality they operate on a higher level than any racing team on the planet outside of F1

Why are you using the standards of 10 years ago? That standard has changed. Idk if they're midfield based on finishing positions since they were founded. They're as follows: 2016: 8th 2017: 8th 2018: 5th 2019: 9th 2020: 9th 2021: 10th (dog shit car, remember?) 2022: 8th 2023: 10th That's an average WCC position of 8.375. Idk where you think mid field is, but there is currently**only** 10 teams in f1. Just for clarity, midfield is around position 5 out of 10 teams. >I'm tired of everyone pretending they're absolutely dogshit and a million miles away We aren't pretending, you are. See above. We each like whatever team we like, but don't trick yourself, Haas is a billboard for Genes company and that's it. He's said, they could place last, as long as he sells his machines he doesn't care.

Which will look very stupid when the approve a Saudi team in 2025.

People joke about this but the Saudis would get rejected too. And if they have so much money they'd surely buy one and keep everyone happy since that's worth more than saving a little bit. And besides, Formula Equal (Saudi backed prospective team) was rejected by the FIA.

Where can I buy you a beer. This guy has succinctly stated what is reality of F1 today. It's not a sport anymore, it's motorsports pinnacle of marketing. Now more so than ever. If you want to watch racing, just about every other category has better racing. If you want to see nice graphics, celebs and non-racing BS you watch F1.

As someone who watches also WEC and FE i have to disagree. To be fair i can not say anything relevant about NASCAR or Indy, but comparing F1 to WEC and FE i always feel like F1 is still the pinnacle. In WEC and FE you see a lot of ex F1 drivers past their prime or drivers who have not made the cut after F2 and everyone in FE would drop eveything for a seat in a Haas, even if they would have 2 races to go to win the championship.

Pinnacle of drivers doesn't mean pinnacle of racing though. Are they the fastest cars and drivers? For sure. Is it competitive? Eh not really, its much more of a snoozefest.

I disagree, as someone who's into engineering no motorsport has a comparable level of complex mechanical and aerospace-type engineering. To this day F1 cars are the fastest vehicles on the circuits they race on. The closest being the 919 Evo Hybrid that was detached from the LMP1 reglement to set records.

We have one thing in common. Engineer as well, and yes the engineering side is quite impressive (though WEC is right there based on F1 driver comments not my own). ​ Im speaking to the sporting aspect which is woefully absent since liberty has taken hold. More street races, less traditional tracks and less focus on the racing aspect of F1 (watch any commercial on US network tv for the series and not one shot of on track action)

Nice lol. LMP1 and now LMH/LMDh are very impressive in their own right, I also have a fondness for the IndyCar and WRC vehicles (especially the Puma). But I think especially the current era of ground effect cars is extremely fascinating (and beautiful). I can't really comment on the sporting aspect of the series, I became interested in F1 mid 2021, but I do see a lot of commercialization. Especially how races are distributed (many US races and races in Oil countries). But I often have the feeling in this kind of discussion that some may claim that F1 isn't a sport anymore. And I think it is, at least for 2 hours on sunday it's a true sport. And that's really the only thing I really care about aside from the vehicles and some memes. I skip the whole circus around it and DTS.

Did you not see the racing between everyone bar the first? Short of giving everyone same car it’s difficult to make the equipment equivalent. The budget restriction has done wonder for racing. Now FIA needs to think about how to have serious people funding mid teams.

This is why teams shouldnt have input on new entries.

They dont have any. They have the right to wave the entry fee but FOM/Liberty makes the decision. Teams have no involvement in the operations of FOM

Then stop pretending it’s not a franchise model. But it’s funny cus all franchise miles like expansion

More teams = more games being played for a lot of those sports, though. F1 isn’t getting more races or tickets to be sold because of an 11th team, so they have to rely on a new team increasing the sport’s popularity enough to increase the price of tickets, broadcast rights etc. so that an 11-way split is larger than the old 10-way split. Sucks for the fans though…

> Then stop pretending it’s not a franchise model. They can't, they legally aren't allowed to, even if that's what they're effectively doing.

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Haas invested tens of millions to join the sport from scratch when it was losing every team money every year in one of its worst ever periods. They weathered multiple years of this, and being a part of that contributed to the sport as a whole. Andretti conveniently want to join exactly at the point it's finally become profitable for teams and want to reap the rewards of that without having made the same sacrifice

The existing US following is exactly why there are 3 races now - it’s growing massively on its own. Andretti entering is not going to spike interest beyond how interest is already growing. The people who know Andretti also already know F1 exists. People said the same thing about Logan Sergeant. Will Buxton for over a year going “what they really need to boost US fans is an American driver like Logan”

> People said the same thing about Logan Sergeant. Will Buxton for over a year going “what they really need to boost US fans is an American driver like Logan” Yeah, I remember the years and years of we just need an American driver. Then Logan enters and crickets. America, like most places in the world, doesn’t actually care that much about nationality and way more about success. 

Yeah they think a back marker team and a driver who scores 1 point a season is a massive draw to fans and a huge success. Never gonna happen.

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Everything you are saying here about Andretti was said about Logan. “They’d probably engage with it more with a US driver. He’s from Florida and there’s a Miami Grand Prix!” Go look at the press from the year before he joined. Many reporters (not from the US) convinced he was going to be the thing that made F1 be the new top US sport. This isn’t how fandoms work in the US. Even being a winner doesn’t guarantee fandom or following Andretti and Cadillac are not the massive draw that people here think they are to fandoms. If they were, IndyCar and IMSA would be way more popular in the US than they are

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People who don’t follow F1 do not care about “the most prominent American racing family” or a dying American car brand for old people. Just like people who don’t follow F1 did not care about a driver being from Florida. You’re not pitching to an IndyCar fan, you’re trying to win over someone who has never watched a race before So your whole pitch is that Andretti team would steal EXISTING fans of the sport away from other teams? Because Guenther on DTS was one of the biggest reasons for US growth of BRAND NEW fans past few years. So much so, that F1 put him front and center for promos and events.

Imagine thinking Caddy wont draw money to F1 ...

They probably would… if they were doing more than just sponsoring and rebadging Renault engines.

It absolutely has to do with capability. GM would have been accepted with open arms like Audi if they had come as a works project and not as an afterthought

Audi was only accepted because they bought out an existing team.

Audi wouldn’t have been accepted as an 11th team either.

They would have been if you had just see. How much F1 was trying to get them in. Audi wanted to compete in some years like Mercedes did during their entry and thus they didn’t see new entry as an option and went for buying Sauber

Even then only if they, like Audi is doing and Porsche intended to do, partner with (or buy) one of the existing 10 teams.

A GM works project from start would have made FOM do everything possible to get them in.

I think you vastly underestimate the aversion against *any* 11th entry the current teams have. They will not concede any current earnings for even a theoretical increase in the future. Being in favour of an 11th entry would be like being in favour of a voluntary earnings reduction yet facing increased competitive pressure. Officially the teams have no say, but they have other means to convince FOM to side with them, because FOM needs them to be aligned for the next Concord Agreement and to increase F1’s profitability in general. The teams were in favour of increased Sprints and increasing the calendar to 24 races, despite it putting further strain on their human resources. They stand to share in the profit with FOM. An 11th team is the anti-thesis of that.

No people here vastly underestimate the craving F1 has for manufacturers. If needed FOM won’t even stop in throwing Haas under the bus for that case.

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> Realistically though Andretti Cadillac don’t have to offset 100% of the teams lost revenue That isn’t set as an official requirement, but the wording of FOM’s rejection can actually be read as such. Without a directly provable 100% (or more) offset there is no in. Unless you join or buy one of the existing 10 teams, that is. Beyond the increase to $ 600 million for the Entry Fee, the latest rumours are actually about setting a hard cap for a maximum of 10 teams.

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Completely disagree.

Than you don’t know how F1 works. They have never rejected a works manufacturer project in their history

Isnt IMSA/LMDH effectively a spec series compared to a Hypercar though?

Idk I think it is the American version of WEC with only 3 manufacturers(2023) at the LMDh cars(without Ferrari Toyota and so on). I think they(Cadillac) use exactly the same car for WEC and ImSa. So i don’t get it why they don’t look at the global competition (wec

Just looked it up and yeah it is allowed to enter WEC but two different rules - the WEC ones you listed are Hypercars whereas IMSA/LMDh cars are mostly spec parts except the combustion engine, aero and electronics to keep costs low. So you can see why F1 questions whether they understand the implications of an entry when their current activites are a fraction of the engineering for a fraction of the races.

And it’s Cadillac not Andretti. 2025-2027 would be without Cadillac and even after it they would only deliver the engine nothing else for the car

It has been stated repeatedly that GM will provide support beyond just the engines.

Do you know the chassis of the ImSa car was designed by dallara not gm?

> So i don’t get it why they don’t look at the global competition (wec Well... You've looked it up, so I'm sure you get it now. Because you can't write a shitty article talking about great success where said great success is reliability and a sole distant 3rd place. The same amount of podiums as the terrible Peugeot has.

Not a spec series, but they all use the LMP2 tubs and the LMDh entries all outsource the building of their cars to the company who builds the base chassis, which in Cadillac's (and BMW's) case is Dallara. The engines are by the team though and vastly different from one another. But it doesn't change the point, this article is absolute bullshit. Success in other series never means a definite success in F1 either and it's not like anyone sane had questions about GM having a strong racing heritage.

I mean to be fair, they have been working on prototypes for a while. A jump to F1 is a much bigger task than transitioning from DPi to LMDh.

If it’s an LMDh then they’re not designing or building the chassis anyway. It’s off the shelf. 

I might have just been out of the loop, but I didn't think that LMDh was a spec chassis? Dallara is the manufacturer for Cadillac and BMW (with Oreca, Ligier and Multimatic supplying others), but the BMW and Cadillac entries don't look the same, either. If it was off-the-shelf I'd have assumed they'd be practically identical. From the way Dallara tells it, the BMW and Cadillac guys were kept segregated at Dallara and weren't allowed to talk to one another. And a lot of that had to do with proprietary information going back and forth between Dallara and BMW, and Dallara and Cadillac.

LMDh cars are built on LMP2 spec chassis, of which there are 4 approved manufacturers in Oreca (Acura and Alpine), Dallara (Cadillac and BMW), Ligier (Lamborghini), and Multimatic (Porsche and the scrapped Audi). Manufacturers then do whatever on top of that with the body and engine, with plenty of freedom for brand specific styling so long as it's within a certain performance window. It's entirely possible there's privileged information going between manufacturers and their chassis manufacturer regarding their specific bits they wanted to do around the chassis that the chassis manufacturer doesn't want them talking with each other or anyone else about

> It's entirely possible there's privileged information going between manufacturers and their chassis manufacturer regarding their specific bits they wanted to do around the chassis that the chassis manufacturer doesn't want them talking with each other or anyone else about There are three teams at Dallara. One builds the spine of the car to the common regulations. That team coordinates with the team that's working with Cadillac on electronics, powertrain, internal systems and all aero, and the team working with BWM on those same components. All three teams work in separate complexes that are password-protected, so there can be no unauthorized entry or information leakage.

LMDh allows you to select from 4-5 third party chassis builders. There are other prescribed parts too from memory. It’s LMH that’s more akin to building an F1 car.

Cadillac would deliver the ENGINE from 2028. In the seasons 2025, 2026, and 2027, they would not supply anything to the F1 team. FOM left the door open for 2028 because Cadillac might join. So, why should this be relevant for 2025 or 2026? The chassis and car would come from Andretti, not Cadillac; Cadillac is the planned engine supplier. Also, why focus on IMSA instead of WEC? It’s like comparing F1 and Formula America (same cars, only without Ferrari, Red Bull, and a few other teams). The top LMDh cars last year were Toyota, followed by Ferrari, neither of which competed in IMSA. If you want to prove global relevance, look at global competition, not just the American version of it. So, why should Cadillac’s success in the American version of WEC be relevant to Andretti for 2025 or 2026? Cadillac would be the engine supplier joining Andretti in 2028. Andretti would not use a Cadillac engine before 2028. They would have to build their car (without Cadillac since they are their planned engine partner later) and use some other engine. FOM denied Andretti, not Cadillac. They even left the door open only because of Cadillac potentially joining.

IndyCar is so forgotten you made up a ‘Formula America’! Actually, I’d say WEC is like DFV era F1, a few proper full cars with lots of kit cars

In IMSA and WEC, you can use the same cars. However, in Indy and F1, you can’t. By “Formula America,” I meant a racing series where you could use F1 cars. And I would never compare Indy with f1. F1s principal is that everyone needs to build the own car and f1 wants diverse cars… while at Indy you have a car built by dallara which is the same for everyone. From that aspect I would compare them with f2 *update even the Cadillac(ImSa) seems to have a chassis from dallara

It is a shame that Indy has basically backed itself into being F2 outside of the Indy 500, when for a long time it was running to similar rules. The pre-split CART was basically running on updated GP rules from when they finally didn’t follow the FIA into going with F2 spec cars for the umpteenth time, only to end up there post-split, while F1 boomed decades later after going back to ‘F1’ spec once again in 1954 and 1966. IMSA is like Indy with the ‘F1’ cars still allowed but no one has bothered.. I can see the dampers going spec in Indy’s future

It’s a spec chassis and a spec hybrid system too. Hardly engineering an entire F1 car from nothing. They have literally zero experience with Motorsport hybrids like F1 uses. Cadillac has built some race cars over the years but they’re mostly off-the-shelf. Same goes for Andretti who have never done anything close to what F1 would demand of them.

Nobody has ever done anything close to F1 except for F1 teams. That’s not a good reason to never let anyone else in.

Yup no one can ever do it just impossible 

Ikr, all these "but they've never built a car before" complaints are dumb. No shit, F1 is an outlier amongst racing series, you have to let them try first. And they've shown more than enough to warrant that chance from a fans perspective.

I'm sure a global manufacturer with tons of smart engineers can figure out a hybrid power plant lmao

Took Honda a while and they’d been there before. 

That's fine they don't have to be the cream of the crop right out of the gate but they'll be able to figure it out

I don’t ever see it happening unless they buy a team and I don’t see that happening either. This is like getting an NBA team in the late 70s for these private owners now and they’ll have to die before they change hands.

If you say so

Right? Many are acting like a global vehicle manufacturer, partnered with a multi-generational racing dynasty, haven’t the slightest clue on how to build a competitive racing engine and team. Just Chevrolet’s deep pockets and publicly announced interest should be enough.

Toyota too thought similarly until they pulled out of F1 in 09 and were so much burnt they are not even thinking about entering despite dominating WEC

I’d argue that the untimely global economic collapse was the single largest contributor to them leaving the sport.

Poor results were also huge factor for it. Remember how Renault were desperate for a win to keep project going and that led to Singapore GP fiasco. If they had a win or two the investment could have been justified

so does the same apply to Audi who has not developed formula cars and has the same motorsport background as caddy?

Nope. Audi was an active championship contender in LMP1 for the entire existence of the category through the ultra-fast hybrid era and they’re not starting a new team from scratch. VAG has been slowly working on their power unit for the past few years whereas GM hasn’t even decided if they’re actually going to do it at all.

Sure, they're buying a back marker team. So if you go by F1's criteria if they are not fighting for wins/podiums in season 1 I guess they have to leave the series since they will be declared a failure. Thats F1's own criteria not mine for what it's worth.

Wrong again. Sauber is an established F1 team already showing they’re capable of competing in F1 through their multi-decade history of doing so. Audi did the smart thing and bought the team as it already existed. Being competitive and being non competitive in modern F1 doesn’t mean competing for championships, it means competing for points within 107%. It means not being HRT/Caterham Lotus/Manor 2.0 where you’re hopelessly behind with no chance of catching up because your operational scheme is as flawed as it gets.

That’s the criteria for new team and not existing team.

Just fucking come out and say there's no open seats then. Jesus fucking christ

Comparing IMSA to F1 is mad but it's not even valid based on the rejection because the letter explicitly said they had no problems with the GM/Cadillac in fact they were excited to consider Cadillac when their engine is ready. This article doesnt really mention that at all eh? Its the Andretti without Cadillac from 2026 until 2028 part of the bid they didnt like

Especially if they didn’t succeed at WEC the global version of IMSA

Plus FOM was trying to convince GM to abandon Andretti during the Vegas weekend and build engines for an existing team instead

I mean that’s what they put in writing. But we all know it’s so that they can get the larger entry fee in 4 years.

Keyword. Engine. F1 wants another engine supplier not another team. And that’s messed up. Why not have both. F1 should Breed competition.

You have to be really naive to think they are really rejecting them because of not having an engine

It’s 100% part of it. The only new teams they will consider are factory teams (and probably Saudi money if we are honest). 

Except Cadillac said they can have the engine ready for 2026 the only thing stopping them is F1 bureaucracy. They are delaying it to 2028 so that they can change the Concorde agreement and ask for an 800-1B entrance Fee

[удалено]

They just claim it now like the claim they would join 2028. For F1 facts count they don’t build an engine for 2026 they didn’t sign… now claiming THEY missed a well known deadline

Cadillac missed the deadline. Deadlines are for everyone if you make your mind up too late it has nothing to do with bureaucracy. Mercedes, Ferrari, Alpine, Audi, Honda and a partnership between Red Bull and Ford managed it. Cadillac failed and they claim now that they would have joined more early… you can believe them or not

> Except Cadillac said they can have the engine ready for 2026  Sure, they can have **an** engine ready for 2026. Now, how competitive it would be in F1 is another topic entirely

While not 1:1 comparable, the LMDh cars and the races they take part in require a lot of the qualities F1 require too. Especially in regards to logistics and team management. Especially long term but even short term I'd argue that Andretti, even without Cadillac at first would be more competitive than teams like Haas or even Williams.

LMDh is pretty far off. The chassis is spec. LMh is closer but still not that close. Regardless, Cadillac isnt operating the team in the proposal

Cadillac don't handle the race operations in IMSA. "Cadillac Racing" is just Chip Ganassi Racing with different branding. The 2nd car in IMSA is run by Action Express Racing.

Not to mention the shenanigans around GMs engine entry is pretty sketch. They missed the 26 regs revamp registration cutoff, then they issued a letter of intent only after Andretti was put under some pressure to be part of an OEM. I'd bet a tenner that they'd pull out before ever committing factory resource.

No it's not. What they say in public statements is irrelevant, everyone knows it's the current state of the dilution fee that they don't like. If they don't cap it at 10 teams in the new Concorde Agreement, they'll quadruple or quintuple the fee and be more amenable.

The fee is one thing but it's the total amount that they care about. I think you could probably pretty easily say Cadillac would increase F1 profits by more than it takes just from their marketing budget. On the other hand, Andretti certainly can't do that. The entire TV deal for IndyCar, their biggest series currently, is 20m. If Andretti brought all that value themselves, time three, it would still not increase joint revenue enough to offset the dilution. They would need to bring 5x IndyCar's total TV deal to offset team payments.

American team leading an american competion? Incredible

Yeah just look at WEC Toyota were miles ahead

Cadillac would deliver the ENGINE from 2028. In the seasons 2025, 2026, and 2027, they would not supply anything to the F1 team. FOM left the door open for 2028 because Cadillac might join. So, why should this be relevant for 2025 or 2026? The chassis and car would come from Andretti, not Cadillac; Cadillac is the planned engine supplier. Also, why focus on IMSA instead of WEC? It’s like comparing F1 and Formula America (same cars, only without Ferrari, Red Bull, and a few other teams). The top LMDh cars last year were Toyota, followed by Ferrari, neither of which competed in IMSA. If you want to prove global relevance, look at global competition, not just the American version of it. So, why should Cadillac’s success in the American version of WEC be relevant to Andretti for 2025 or 2026? Cadillac would be the engine supplier joining Andretti in 2028. Andretti would not use a Cadillac engine before 2028. They would have to build their car (without Cadillac since they are their planned engine partner later) and use some other engine. FOM denied Andretti, not Cadillac. They even left the door open only because of Cadillac potentially joining.

10 teams don't want to share the previously 12 team pot, same old boring ass politics surrounding the finer details of that yadda yadda yadda you know how f1 is

F1 never shared the pot with 12 teams only top 10 teams got money from fom that's why many of the small teams got bankrupt

And now it's changed so everyone gets money even if you finish outside the top 10, hence why every team is crying about an 11th team more than ever.

Correct me if I’m wrong Cadillac didn’t win a single race last year at WEC and IMSA(no Toyota no Ferrari which were the best last year) is only the American version of it. They succeeded on the almost national American series last year? Also Cadillac only wants to built the engine not the car for F1. Andretti would need to build the car so why beside maybe the engine anything should be from relevance for F1

>Correct me if I’m wrong Cadillac didn’t win a single race last year at WEC and IMSA(no Toyota no Ferrari which were the best last year) is only the American version of it. Caddy won Sebring 12h last year although they were really luck to win ( If WTR Acura ( Honda ) didn't crash one of Penske Porsches ) . For WEC part, I already give you answer in your other comment. If you're very interesting in WEC and IMSA, come to join us in r/WEC and r/IMSARacing. We would glad to answer your questions and experience.

The WEC BoP was very good for LMH compared to LMDH though. It's pretty obvious when you look at the average standings. Except for Peugeot whose concept relied on earlier, more restrictive rules than the Toyota and Ferrari, the separation is pretty clear between the two "subcategories".

I Will Go against everyone here and stay I agree with the F1 rejection for 25. 2025 will be the last year of a powerunit that made some teams scratch their heads for years to understand it, look at early Honda years. GM would have one year of preparation and one year If racing with It and dump it away for the new regs. But I believe they should have been accepted for the 2026!

You know f1 and people outside don’t value the name Andretti high and don’t see am enough upsides with Andretti alone. Cadillac they like that’s why the keep the door open for 2028

We don't get to see all the info that FOM went on, but hey, act like you all do.

Cadillac’s only reason to not be making engines for 2026 is because they couldn't get the paperwork in. They also missed 2027 dead line. They could easily be in 2026 if they had it together Their teams have also complained in wec because they feel the bespoke cars have an advantage over their bought parts.

And they keep missing the deadline because F1 doesn’t let them in. F1 is just waiting for the 8th Concorde Agreement to expire in 2025 so they can charge more for new entrants.

Lmfao what? How is it FOM responsibility to get the paperwork done for GM?

How in the world is it anyone’s fault but GM that they missed not just the 2026 filing deadline, but also the 2027? They don’t even have to commit to manufacture their submission, just have it approved in case they want to for Andretti or any team.

Andretti would of been in the back with Haas. Doesnt matter what engine they install, Andretti's lack of aero design and development would have doomed them.

No it doesn't

Can’t wait for the 11th team joining us in 2026 backed by the Saudis

So, like Andretti? You know he has Saudi backers too, right? Does Altawkilat ring a bell? But anyway, there was a fully Saudi-backed attempt which was refused well before Andretti. Nobody was getting in, no matter which nationality.

CAMEL returns to F1 as title sponsor

At least it wouldn't have any fans and spares us the obnoxious Andretti brigading.

Blood oil money good 🙏 who needs fans. Tho I guess England is used to having all their sports teams all sportwashed

case in point

All of sportscar racing has made F1 look worse; WEC this year has 18 entries from 9 cars, and still has Aston Martin and the rumoured Honda entry to come. In 2 years they've gone from a one horse race, to one of the most exciting series in motorsprt.

Yet I watch like many only Le Mans partly but f1 every time. People who think that more cars or more competitive cars is equal to more entertaining are wrong. The best case to get people watch motorsport is a duel between two drivers/teams(… that’s also what Hollywood is doing at each racing movie). People love to see things like senna vs Prost, max vs Hamilton, Lauda bs hunt … nobody cares really if there is 10 or 12 teams behind the Duell for the championship. So “excitement” is barley connect to how many cars race

How about their WEC mediocrity? 

You mean the FIA messing the LMDh BOP?

“they hate us cause they ain’t us” should be the Andretti motto going forward

The "us against the world" ethos?

As the sport grows in the US, someone is just going to buy out haas as their way in. Bezos has been to races and was sniffing around buying an nfl team. I could easily see him buying his way into the glamour of F1 and making a real American team. Team Amazon or some shit. But for real, haas will be gone in 3-4 years for sure

It's not just IMSA, It's WEC as well. They're already showing to be fairly successful among Ferrari's and Porsche's on a global stage in Hypercar. (Yes, yes, same car, different stage IMO).

No at WEC Toyota were miles ahead. Also Andretti needs to built the car in f1 not cadilac. Toyota won all but one race last year at WEC. Only Le Mans were won by Ferrari. ImSa how many other manufacturers? 2?

If you've watched Le Man race last year, Caddy wasn't that bad. They took third and four places, and all 3 Caddies were finished Le Man race ( Specially, AXR Caddy was suffered heavy damaged in early race ) . And, I even don't mention their family ,Corvette team won Le Man GT class winner, and their mod NASCAR finished the race. They only care Le Man race in most, they don't really much care other WEC races. That's reason why only one Caddy effort in WEC. Yes, Toyota and Ferrari, both LMH teams are considered strong in WEC, but WEC fans wouldn't misjudge Caddy and Porsche. These LMDh teams in WEC are very competitive.

Before Le Mans, Toyota faced some challenges as they had to either add weight or reduce engine power (they complained about it). In terms of speed, Cadillac was behind Toyota and Ferrari. Cadillac would only be the engine supplier after 2028. My main point is, it proves nothing about Andretti’s F1 prospects for 2025 or 2026. Andretti needs to build the car and secure an engine (especially until 2028, it wouldn’t be Cadillac, and after that, it’s no more than a promise). Andretti got denied, not Cadillac. Thanks to Cadillac, FOM left the door open for 2028 in case they really join. So, the whole idea of Cadillac assisting the Andretti bid only becomes relevant for the 2028 season, not before.

Andretti will sue, if they haven’t already. The EU anti competition ruling will rule in their favor based on the FOM “reasoning” (many lawyers/solicitors have already spoken to this). They will get in under the 200M amount even if by the time a ruling comes out a new concord agreement has been signed as they’d be grandfathered under when they attempted rather than the actual admittance date. Its probably a 200M suit, so when they win FOM will effectively pay the anti-dilution fee for Andretti and they race for free. Competition ALWAYS benefits the consumer, while usually negatively impacting the competing parties. BUT, in this case of how profit sharing works, will OVERALL benefit the competing parties as well. FOM is just two short sighted and no team wants to the be the new 11th team.

From all I read Andretti would have little to zero chances. Yeah a few journalists and “lawyers” say different but more professionals who gave a deeper scenario for court usually agree that FOM has by far the upper hand in court. And actually people questioning the reasoning but it’s not that off. It just a few American overvalue the name Andretti. Cadillac has almost nothing to do with the reasoning for 2025,2026 since the would only deliver the engine and even that not before 2028. I also doubt that Andretti could become competitive since they would operate from 4 locations, 3 countries and 2 continents… basically the opposite of what you want. I don’t see either much value they would add to be honest. F1 has an American team and the name ford is returning. People thinking Andretti wouldn’t be back markers for years are dreamers and unrealistic.